SM UU Beta (Mewnium Z, Staraptor, Victini banned)

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If any of my matches today are any indication, I'm surprised Victini wasn't hit with the ban hammer. You practically need something that resists fire and isn't weak to electric, as scarftini's speed tier is far worth from trying to beat. V-Create is still the nuke it always has been, and can easily whittle down its checks without even trying. Its popularity is plain astonishing to see as well, I swear I've seen Victini in 90% of my most recent games.

Without Serperior, the role for a grass type is really up in the air right now. I feel Tsareena finally has her chance to shine, and can run either defense to suit your team's needs. She has quite the utility movepool too, and can be an absolute pain trying to switch into with trop kick spam. You could also expect other grass types to see more usage too, Decidueye and Breloom being the first to come into mind.
 
I tried SD Poison Heal Breloom today, and it was completely underwhelming. I was imagining 6-0lling stall teams, but finding space to set up was tricky, it wasn't especially powerful unboosted, and the multitude of weaknesses made it hard to get in. Nasty Plot Mew is a far better stallkiller.

Glad Serperior and Terrakion were banned, I've been saying for ages that they were broken. Gyarados was more of a shock, but the reasoning was solid. Kommo-o just lost yet more competition.

Also people, stop using Focus Sash Breloom. Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes and Spikes make it useless, as does Sandstorm and Hail, you can't switch into anything ever and you lose out on vital power. Focus Sash is for suicide leads who don't care about passive damage, and Alakazam, who is immune to passive damage. Technician Breloom should only use Life Orb.
 

Sacri'

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Also people, stop using Focus Sash Breloom. Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes and Spikes make it useless, as does Sandstorm and Hail, you can't switch into anything ever and you lose out on vital power. Focus Sash is for suicide leads who don't care about passive damage, and Alakazam, who is immune to passive damage. Technician Breloom should only use Life Orb.
Although I can see where you're coming from this part of your post happens to be fairly innacurate. Yes, hazards, sand & hail can break Breloom's sash but that doesnt make it a bad item on it, far from that actually. What you seem to forget is that one of Breloom's biggest asset is the move Spore. However, because of it's shaky bulk it is sometimes hard for it to Spore something vs offensive teams which would have helped it a lot in this common match up. Sash allows you to get the spore off as long as there is no hazards on the field which isn't that hard for offensive teams that apply a lot of pressure to common stealth rocks users which often have no choice but to attack. There also are things like Starmie which can remove hazards easily while also fitting well on the aforementioned offensive teams. Indeed, carrying a focus sash doesnt mean that Breloom should switch into things, on the other hand Spore + Focus Sash actually allows Breloom to 1v1 many pokemons that Life Orb can only dream of such as Starmie, Alakazam, Aerodactyl Mega, Specs Keldeo and the list goes on and on.
 

fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
Here's a team that's prob not good enough to be a sample, but abuses Victini while it's still here. Pretty fun offensive team. I wouldn't mind feedback, because this is the first sm uu team I've built.

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Defog

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Fusion Bolt
- Trick

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Iron Head

Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Outrage
- Sleep Talk

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Grass Knot

Azumarill @ Normalium Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off


Cobalion and Latias seem to make a pretty cool bulky Offence core, providing Sr and Defog, as well as cobalion helping with the darks, pursuiters, and fairies (except azu and primarina) that lati struggles with, and lati helping with fighters and grounds that coba doesn't like

You probably should also try and abuse Breloom, because something tells me it'll be out in the next round of voting with Tini
 
So I've been watching a lot of replays and lurking about, and I'm surprised defensive Arcanine isn't more popular right now. It's a great counter to scarf and band Victini, laughs at Scizor, and is a decent check to Breloom(two of which people have complained about in some way just in the past couple posts in this thread)

-1 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 67-80 (17.4 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 179-211 (46.7 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 160-188 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Breloom and Scizor both die to a Flare Blitz outright, Victini takes about 30% from Extreme Speed after the V-Create drop(if for some reason it even stays in), morning sun helps shrug off any punishment the big doggo takes.


Edit:
We can even take this a step further against other physical threats in the tier.

-1 0 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 162-192 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's enough to survive the hit from swapping in, apply a burn, and swap out to something else.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Arcanine can potentially straight wall an EQ locked darmanitan after swapping in on it. God forbid you swap into a Flare Blitz instead and chuckle softly as it tickles you.

Bisharp is probably the biggest problem, physically. If they predict the swap and catch the Defiant boost then knock off is going to hit like a truck and seriously cripple you. Nobody's perfect though so I can forgive Arcanine for that. Plus there's this whole bit...

8 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 282-332 (104 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Seriously Arcanine is great.
 
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So, I wanna talk about a playstyle that's basically the most broken thing in the tier atm: Rain.

Rain is easily spammable, and it limits the teambuilding more than anything in the tier atm, yes, more than Victini, Volcanion, and even Breloom. Rain has a shitton of abusers, and even if you use only one abuser, the team is still really solid, I'm p sure that if Rain is staying a lot of rain balances are gonna be used. I'll list some rain staples bellow.

The godfather:

Secondary rain setters:

Rain abusers:
Swift Swim:

Non-Swift Swim Wallbreakers:


Of course some Pokémon are really niche, like Gorebyss, Seismitoad and Qwilfish, but most of the listed Pokémon are completely viable and extremely scary under rain. Some of these Pokémon can't miss attacks under rain, such as Tornadus (Hurricane), Thundurus(-T), Starmie and Gengar (Thunder). Other Pokémon have their STABs boosted or will take less damage from Fire-type attacks. Finally, some Pokémon will give support to the entire team, like Latias with Healing Wish and Mega Blastoise with Rapid Spin. Rain is extremely hard to play around if you don't have really specific Pokémon, such as Choice Scarf Celebi (lmao), LO Thunder Starmie or Choice Scarf Krookodile, and these don't even threaten all the Pokémon in rain, not only because most of the Pokémon in rain are stronger and faster, but because these Pokémon are really frail. Playing against rain effectively includes doing extremely risky double switches, and using other weather teams, with either Hippowdon or Ninetales-A (Torkoal is utter trash atm but it may be good if the metagame shifts more).

Rain is just not fun to fight against, not only because it's extremely easy click a move and nuke all the opposing Pokémon, but because it has limited counter play. How I said before, it's really hard to find good rain checks, because this doesn't really exist. Some gimmicks can be used, such as Sunny Day random mons or even Hurricane Whimsicott (yes, I'm talking seriously lol), but it's not countered anyways. Some Pokémon were banned before Drizzle, and I feel that Drizzle should be banned before them. I'm not saying anything about the council, I'm just saying that rain is ridiculously spammable atm and that it isn't fun. Some replays bellow:

Vs CBU http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankuubeta-520514786
Vs Pearl http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankuubeta-520543793
Vs Vapo's team http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankuubeta-52054787

In my honest opinion, Drizzle is clearly broken. If the council still thinks that rain is not unhealthy to the metagame, at least ban Damp Rock, like FU/LU did with Heat Rock in ORAS. Even if Damp Rock is banned, I'm sure that Drizzle will still be looked. Finally, I think that another Pokémon should be on the radar...



Yes, this thing is amazing, and unfortunately broken. I've been testing some tests, such as Choice Scarf (good revenge killer), Nasty Plot + 3 Attacks, Agility + 3 Attacks, and Double Dance + Fightinium Z (courtesy of Hogg), and this is clearly broken. Its checks are really hard to fit on teams, being limited to bulky Celebi (still defeated by NP + HP Ice) and Blissey (Z-Focus Blast OHKOes at +2 if Bold, has a 80% chance to OHKO if Calm). Some Thundurus may run mixed sets to defeat its checks, and its only counter is Lanturn, that is extremely bad atm and isn't worth using. If you don't run a check to Thundurus-T, like Spore Amoonguss (OHKOed by +2 Psychic), you'll be eventually sweeped every time you face it.
 
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Hogg

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Eh, I've been playing rain a lot and I actually haven't been finding it that broken (yet). It's quite good but still fairly matchup based, and for a while it was nabbing free points on the ladder because everyone was bringing balls out HO (aka rain's best matchup), but the metagame has been shifting somewhat bulkier lately and rain has been getting less reliable as a result. Basically I think rain's effectiveness has more to do with it being anti-meta than with it being inherently broken, if that makes sense. It's definitely good, don't get me wrong, but I think that it will grow less and less effective as the meta adjusts.

Thundy-T is definitely a monster, though. It's rain's best chance of breaking fat thanks to its insane Special Attack combined with the ability to take out common special walls with things like All-Out Pummeling. That said, it struggles to get setup turns against more offensive teams, and it's not unstoppable. Still a fantastic 'mon both on rain and off it, and I've actually been finding it almost as good as Thundy-I in this meta.
 
That is 4 pokemon now that have been banned with the Flyinium-Z cited as a major if not the main reason. What is the next best Flyinium-Z user?
 
Eh, I've been playing rain a lot and I actually haven't been finding it that broken (yet). It's quite good but still fairly matchup based, and for a while it was nabbing free points on the ladder because everyone was bringing balls out HO (aka rain's best matchup), but the metagame has been shifting somewhat bulkier lately and rain has been getting less reliable as a result. Basically I think rain's effectiveness has more to do with it being anti-meta than with it being inherently broken, if that makes sense. It's definitely good, don't get me wrong, but I think that it will grow less and less effective as the meta adjusts.

Thundy-T is definitely a monster, though. It's rain's best chance of breaking fat thanks to its insane Special Attack combined with the ability to take out common special walls with things like All-Out Pummeling. That said, it struggles to get setup turns against more offensive teams, and it's not unstoppable. Still a fantastic 'mon both on rain and off it, and I've actually been finding it almost as good as Thundy-I in this meta.
I've never really had too much of a problem with breaking bulky stuff with rain. Rain simply has so many tools to plow through anything facing off against it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 313-369 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (higher 2HKO rate factoring in burn chance)
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 265-312 (55 - 64.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 217-256 (50.3 - 59.3%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 226-266 (52.4 - 61.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 190-224 (39.5 - 46.5%) (this actually tanks and stalls out rain. There is a 20% chance def drop though)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 216-255 (50.1 - 59.1%)
Hydro Pump + Hydro Vortex can also kill after rocks in case you want to be able to switch up moves or get a speed boost + manual rain as a secondary setter.

Any one of these Pokemon can be used as a wallbreaker and can switch in directly on all kinds of Pokemon. They all bring great utility to rain teams in addition to wallbreaking. After that it's not hard to clean up with a Swift Swim user or Torn (or Noivern!) or something like that. Swift swimmers also invalidate the usual offensive water checks through killing them with the other STAB or just 2HKOing with a Rain boosted Water move.

There will be matchup issues to some extent, but rain has enough options to alleviate most of them. For example Life Orb Breloom might be a big threat to some rain teams, but others can run specs Tornadus/Noivern, Celebi or Forretress for rocks, or check it with Thundurus forms. Gastrodon will be a problem for some rain teams but it can be slept by Politoed, overpowered by Thundurus-T/Torn-I, countered by Celebi/Ludicolo, or Grass Knotted/Taunted by Thund-I, etc. Nidoqueen can be used as the SR mon and check to Electric types.

Overall in my opinion it's legitimately not possible to have a team that guarantees a good matchup against rain, and offense in particular is very likely to just get shredded. A simple formula of Politoed/Kabutops/SR/dedicated wallbreaker (Volcanion Araquanid Azu etc)/Genie/filler (frequently second genie or Ludicolo) is enough to get the job done most of the time, but of course there are plenty of possibilities for a rain team.
 
That is 4 pokemon now that have been banned with the Flyinium-Z cited as a major if not the main reason. What is the next best Flyinium-Z user?
To be fair, two of those were moxie sweepers and the nuke from Z-Fly snowballed them absurdly well. Speaking of moxie fliers... Honchkrow anyone?

Honchkrow @ Flyinium-Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Roost
- Superpower

200 base Z-Fly is a pretty crazy nuke to get the moxie ball rolling, and it doesn't even suffer brave bird recoil. From there you can go about spamming Brave Bird and Sucker Punch.
 

Kink

it's a thug life ¨̮
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I've never really had too much of a problem with breaking bulky stuff with rain. Rain simply has so many tools to plow through anything facing off against it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 313-369 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (higher 2HKO rate factoring in burn chance)
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 265-312 (55 - 64.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 217-256 (50.3 - 59.3%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 226-266 (52.4 - 61.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 190-224 (39.5 - 46.5%) (this actually tanks and stalls out rain. There is a 20% chance def drop though)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 216-255 (50.1 - 59.1%)
Hydro Pump + Hydro Vortex can also kill after rocks in case you want to be able to switch up moves or get a speed boost + manual rain as a secondary setter.

Any one of these Pokemon can be used as a wallbreaker and can switch in directly on all kinds of Pokemon. They all bring great utility to rain teams in addition to wallbreaking. After that it's not hard to clean up with a Swift Swim user or Torn (or Noivern!) or something like that. Swift swimmers also invalidate the usual offensive water checks through killing them with the other STAB or just 2HKOing with a Rain boosted Water move.

There will be matchup issues to some extent, but rain has enough options to alleviate most of them. For example Life Orb Breloom might be a big threat to some rain teams, but others can run specs Tornadus/Noivern, Celebi or Forretress for rocks, or check it with Thundurus forms. Gastrodon will be a problem for some rain teams but it can be slept by Politoed, overpowered by Thundurus-T/Torn-I, countered by Celebi/Ludicolo, or Grass Knotted/Taunted by Thund-I, etc. Nidoqueen can be used as the SR mon and check to Electric types.

Overall in my opinion it's legitimately not possible to have a team that guarantees a good matchup against rain, and offense in particular is very likely to just get shredded. A simple formula of Politoed/Kabutops/SR/dedicated wallbreaker (Volcanion Araquanid Azu etc)/Genie/filler (frequently second genie or Ludicolo) is enough to get the job done most of the time, but of course there are plenty of possibilities for a rain team.
I definitely see what you're saying here, but I think it's interesting to note that the mons you mentioned (Volcanion, Keldeo) are arguably overpowered and suspect to scrutiny. I know this is the age-old debate of affect versus mon (drizzle vs the mons who take advantage of rain), but if Volcanion and Keldeo are the ones that most benefit and that ones that get pushed over that top.... well... that doesn't surprise me one bit.
 
Two thirds of my team resists water, and , out of these, two mons also resist Electric. So, yeah, all things considered, I haven't been having trouble with Rain. Besides, I'm pretty much Water-Spam, Rain kinda helps me. As far as I can see, you either are a Swift Swim walled by a decently Bulky Grass/Dragon, or you're defeated/crippled by a decent Scarf.
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
Roserade is pretty neat right now I feel from the games I did use it in. Like other Grass-types such as Breloom and Celebi, Roserade definitely benefits a lot with the bans of Mega-Bro, Flyinium-Z users, and so on. SpDef Roserade in particular is very useful against specially offensive Swift Swimmers since it has enough bulk to take Ice Beam from Ludicolo or +2 Omastar (Can't switch into Kabutops since it has a chance to OHKO with Stone Edge). Roserade also takes advantage of Politoed by setting up Spikes and what not while also not having to worry about Scald burns with Natural Cure. Roserade is also a nice check to Specs Primarina (watch out for Psychic), Keldeo, Breloom, and Hippo who I have seen quite a bit.


Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Synthesis
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb

Basically 16 Spe EVs lets Roserade outspeed Primarina, Bewear, Swampert (Base 60 neutral mons) while the rest of the EVs are thrown in for bulk. I prefer Sludge Bomb over Sleep Powder so Roserade can deal with Ludicolo and other Grass-types, also I've literally missed so many Sleep Powders that I now hate that move...

Edit: This second part is 100% theory fyi

I can see offensive Roserade working out also. Leaf Storm has a good chance to knock out Volcanion and also Araquanid with rocks. Offensive Roserade can still perform the same things as SpDef Roserade, it just cannot check Ludicolo or Omastar in the rain anymore. Now that I'm typing this I feel that offensive Roserade might be better since I don't see Ludicolo as often.


Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm
- Extrasensory / Synthesis

I can see Extrasensory working out since it can lure in mons like Tentacruel, Crobat and Amoonguss. I don't see a need for Hidden Power Fire since I have yet to see a Forretress (I guess it's also for Doublade). Sleep Powder would probably be a little more optimal but, I just have a personal grudge against the move.
 
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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Honchkrow @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower

A not super well know fact, when Z Mirror Move copies the move and uses it, it uses the Z Move version of it instead. In one turn you can get to +3 Attack thanks to Moxie. You can also use Z Fly if you can't pull of Mirror Move, there isn't really any coverage you need. This set is super fun to play with and I've been enjoying my time on ladder with it.
 
Yeah z-fly users are still in existence, I think probably the best one atm is this boy right here. Fits really well onto speedy good stuff offence with stuff like mega shark, serp (r.i.p needed to go) and offensive starmie.




Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 48 SpA / 208 Spe
Naive Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Overheat

Straight forward set, flyinium z preserves gale wings and gives you 190 BP stab priority move if you can keep rocks off which is hardly difficult with starmie back and it's just a godsend for offensive teams, one-shotting stuff like mega sharpedo or azu after a couple of layers and sitting in the highest speed tier after mega aero. While it's probably lost some of its anti meta niche with the likes of serperior and volc gone, I've still had some pretty good results with it. Also can do this, never actually happened but it does demonstrate how much pressure it puts on offense.

+2 252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (z-fly followed by BB is also a KO most of the time)

Also, while talonflame is a menace to offense, I've found heracross just absolutely crushes fatter teams that like to run stuff like hippo, amoongus and whatnot which seem quite common on the ladder. Also the fact that its greatest nemesis in crobat is very rare now makes this all the more powerful.



Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off

For reference, not even physdef gliscor (is that a set? idk) can stomach the ridiculous power this has.

+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 300-354 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
Just my pure observation, but it seems like many of these set-up Flying mons take advantage of Z-Fly too well. Technically, we could even use Z-Fly Bulk Up Torn and still have a bit of a problem to deal with. Could the broken element just be the Z-Fly / Z-Bounce aspect of each Pokemon rather than the Pokemon itself? I know this walks on the lines of a Complex ban, but this warrants more discussion in the future.
 
Now before I get into this post, I thought I should make a quick psa that at the time of me writing this, the ladder hasn't been updated to reflect the bans, so don't do what I did and use a team that gets demolished by one of the banned mons lol. Anyways, with that out of the way, I wanted to bring up a mom that appreciates these bans, and is slept on in general I feel.

IMG_0067.GIF


Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 20 SpD / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
(Probably not the best ev spread, I just threw this spread together in like 5 minutes, so if there is a more ideal setup, please let me know.)

Evs allow cune to outspeed max speed jolly Breloom and Bisharp, and it is impossible for Amoongus to break a sub at +1 with Giga Drain, making the fungus set up bait. Hp is max for 101 hp substitutes, and the rest are put into Phys Def to shrug off physical attacks as best as possible, but just be aware that this is not a wall any means, and should not be treated as such.

Suicune is something I have not seen much of on the ladder, but I feel like it is very underrated. A lot of people are using sand balance, and it is a solid build type to be fair, but Suicune is nothing less than a massive pest for those teams. Since those teams often use grass types that counter Keldeo like Celebi and Amoongus to wall water types, Suicune can take advantage of that and sweep these teams with just a bit of support. Volcanion is obviously an issue, but even if the opponent has it, it isn't hard to pressure it, or make an easy double switch on the obviously incoming Volcanion into something that forces it out, causing it to take even more passive damage between hazards and possible sand. Cune is a pretty legit threat, and one I feel is not preapared for at all, and now that Serp and PZ are banned, I feel like Cune can really shine.

Just my pure observation, but it seems like many of these set-up Flying mons take advantage of Z-Fly too well. Technically, we could even use Z-Fly Bulk Up Torn and still have a bit of a problem to deal with. Could the broken element just be the Z-Fly / Z-Bounce aspect of each Pokemon rather than the Pokemon itself? I know this walks on the lines of a Complex ban, but this warrants more discussion in the future.
Rant, TLDR at the bottom of you don't feel like reading my eccentric and messy thoughts, or just don't want to read a wall of text because you have better things to do haha.

Tornadus and Talonflame can't boost their speed or get a moxie boost. Dragonite would most likely have gotten banned regardless of Z-Fly, and Slamence and Gyarados made it so that sacking something just made them stronger, and they could snowball extremely quickly. No other Z-Fly user even comes close to approaching that, and they can't be put into the same boat when they have much more issues, Staraptor would rather just use a Band and just kill everything without using your Z Move and having less power afterwards, because it won't hit nearly as hard without a Band, and won't decimate offense without a Scarf, so using Z Brave Bird is a waste, and you should not use it over other Z Move abusers because you don't need it. Talonflame has a piss poor attack stat, which is lower than Amoongus lol, not to mention it needs full health for priority, which means you need hazard control or you're stuck with a mediocre mon that is only useful for one turn and then it's not good, and sometimes even dead weight because frankly Talonflame is garbage without priority, and can't be compared to other mons that are actually good outside of Z Fly, and Tornadus cannot creep past any relevant scarfer and has no means of boosting its speed to remedy that issue outside of tailwind, which leaves it with one less coverage option because it will need two moves to boost both stats unlike dd users, and that isn't even permanent. Hell, Z-Fly torn is honestly not that good, you are either giving up on valuable coverage and your excellent special move pool to set up, not to mention that you'll be stuck with fly instead of a more useful move like acrobatics, and you can't set up as easily as Mence or Gyara because to you take more damage from attacks and have less resistances. Gyara and Mence had Moxie, and Dragonite had Multiscale which let it set up on almost everything in the tier if it had full health. They also just had to use dd for set up, and after said dd could outspeed even plenty of scarfers in Mence's case. They also had higher attack to boot, so I'd say that it's not Z-Fly that is the issue, but rather Mence and Gyara, who's not only had it, but decent bulk, high attack, and a means of boosting their speed and power at once, not to mention their snowball potential. Sorry for the rant, I'm just still salty about how good these things were lol. Also I'm on mobile, so there a probably spelling mistakes that I will not fix because I'm not editing this wall of text that you probably won't want to read.

TLDR: Mence and Gyara were better as abusers, Dnite was borked regardless, and the relevant Z Fly users have their own issues to begin with and cannot be compared to Mence and Gyara because they are not even close to as good, and aren't even that good in general except for Staraptor which should be using other things so that it can do its job for more than one turn.
 
Just my pure observation, but it seems like many of these set-up Flying mons take advantage of Z-Fly too well. Technically, we could even use Z-Fly Bulk Up Torn and still have a bit of a problem to deal with. Could the broken element just be the Z-Fly / Z-Bounce aspect of each Pokemon rather than the Pokemon itself? I know this walks on the lines of a Complex ban, but this warrants more discussion in the future.
Once the QuickBans settle down, I think it would be Interesting to see a Flynium-Z test. Maybe a ladder with the Z-Flyiers are back, and with the Flynium-Z, and one in which the Z-Flyiers are back but Flynium-Z is banned.
 
Once the QuickBans settle down, I think it would be Interesting to see a Flynium-Z test. Maybe a ladder with the Z-Flyiers are back, and with the Flynium-Z, and one in which the Z-Flyiers are back but Flynium-Z is banned.
Flynium-Z getting banned also bans things like Z-Mirror Move so it would be better to suspect Supersonic Skystrike imo. I'd like to see the SSSS users come back if it was suspected as well tho.
 

Sacri'

a wish for peace
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
A lot of people have posted their experiences regarding rains, I personally don't know whether drizzle should be banned or not. I share Hogg's feeling for the most part but drizzle might end up being too much regardless. In any case, due to Rain's recent rise in usage I thought it would be interesting to post some of the sets that I think do very well versus that particular playstyle.


Raikou @ Leftovers/Zap Plate
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch/Substitute
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Pretty simple set, consitant threat vs rain team. Just get up a Calm Mind vs Politoad and you basically threaten everything. People tend to go into Thundurus-T expecting a choiced set so you can basically get a free kill on that as it can't do much back. At +1 the only thing that can KO Raikou is Waterfall from Kabutops which obviously can't come in. Raikou on it's own obviously wont beat rain teams but it puts a massive amount of work for something that doesn't even resist water attacks.


Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch

This is probably the single threat that has the potential to beat rain teams on it's own, if you use it decently vs a standart rain team expect it to be a slaughter. Mega Swampert being unreleased leaves Rain teams extremely exposed to a Toxicroak sweep. You basically need rocks up to kill Thundurus & Torna at +2 and that's about it really. This beats Ludicolo, Kabutops and sets up on Politoad rather easily. Don't even have that much to say, this also outspeeds Volcanion which is really appreciated. Toxicroak is actually decent right now as it also does a pretty good job at threatening stuff like Breloom, Bisharp & Primarina while also being a decent Keldeo check.


Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Roost
- Calm Mind

In a similar vain to Raikou, Latias can get a boost up rather easily and get at the very least a kill in the process. The only decent Draco switch in that tends to be used in Rain is Scizor and you dont need that much prior damages to OHKO with Draco at +1. I have seen a few rains running Celebi to deal better with psychic types but it's just set up fodder for Latias. Ludicolo can also be used as a set up fodder as soon as rain ends. It's also worth noting that Latias can switch in to Thundurus-T without fearing much and proceed to OHKO it which is great in general.



Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Recover
- Scald/Waterfall
- Toxic/Curse
- Earthquake

Another 'mon which gives rains team trouble thanks to it's water immunity. Even though some of them tend to run grass types to deal with it it's still able to stop most rain sweepers, you just need to watch out for things like Volcanion/Thundurus-T/Tornadus that sometimes carry grass coverage. Both Curse & Toxic have their merits, run whichever works better for you. Gastrodon is a cool mon overall, the Serperior ban gave it some more room to annoy BO/Offense teams which are obviously really popular.

I've seen a lot of people struggling versus rain offenses so I hope this will help. It also offers a general perspective of what can do well versus a popular archetype, obviously there are other threats to rains, I just chose to showcase those that I have personally experienced.
 
Does Volcanion do well against rain (water absorb)? It is a good pokemon to begin with, so I am wondering if Volcanion could be used as a rain check (beware Kabutops, though). Volcanion also does well vs Sun due to 4x resisting fire.
 
I've actually been using Seismitoad on Rain and it does surprisingly well. Handles Electric-types and Toxicroak really well, and gets Grass Knot for bulky Waters too. Its essentially a poor man's specially offensive Mega Swampert but hey what can you do?

To be fair though, last time I used that team was when Torn-T was still in the tier, but I don't think much has changed. In fact, the removal of Serperior seems to make life for the frog BETTER.
 

Kink

it's a thug life ¨̮
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Just mentioning now that discussion of complex bans should be kept to a minimum. I don't mind if we throw in a sentence here or there to raise something of value, but when entire posts are being made towards theory complexbanning, such as Z-Fly, it derails the purpose of this thread: current metagame discussion.

If someone would like to see a preliminary discussion on Z-moves and tiering on Smogon, click here, but don't expect any results in the near future.

Here's another thread that discusses Z-sets http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/handling-broken-sets-with-z-moves.3588070/
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
Speaking of metagame trends, with the third round of complex bans going though, Stall has been doing very well, specifically playerW17 's team. The Blissey/Mola/Quag/Amoonguss/Forretress composition deals with a decent chunk of the metagame very well. The only variable in the team is one's choice for stallbreaker (as we can see from the two versions of the same team in the Sample UU Team thread).
 

YABO

King Turt
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Re: z fly users. The only one who relied on it was gyarados. Mence could've easily substituted in draconium z as the whole point of z fly was to have a single turn nuke that didn't lock you into outrage. Sure this makes you more vulnerable to fairies but iron tail/earthquake easily fit into the last slots and you maintain relatively the same threat level. Dragonite was ridiculously good no matter what set you ran on it. Examples being sub dd fly, choice band, mixnite, and wp dd. Tornadus only used z hurricane as an aditional option but as a result you lose out on assault vest which was highly useful and on your z move slot. More so it functioned as a late addition to a team that didn't already make use of a z move. Gyarados simply benefitted too much from an easy way to start off his moxie train alongside insanely easy setup opportunities. I suppose volc occasionally used it but volcarona was problematic for its own reasons.
 
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