SM UU Viability Ranking Thread

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Nominating Ludicolo for C- rank. It's a Swift Swim abuser that beats bulky waters.

I also think Forretress should be B- rank. Scizor's presence in the tier is causing special attackers such as Celebi to run Hidden Power Fire instead of the usual coverage moves. Forry also can't get free turns versus defensive fairies now that Flamethrower Clefable is a thing.
Ludicolo is way better than C- imo, it's a viable pick over Kingdra that doesn't get checked so easily by Azumarill or Primarina, who are many teams only decent stop to a rain team's swift swimmer, and it has less trouble with all other bulky waters of course (except Mantine.)

In that same vein I think Omastar should also be ranked. It's much slower than other swift swimmers but is still outspeeding every non-scarfed mon, and is really good at blasting holes for a partnered swimmer with Hydro Vortex, which has completely wicked power under rain, especially after a shell smash.


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I wouldnt say Ludicolo is a viable pick over Kingdra. Ludi's niche is to wear down bulky waters that threaten rain teams....which Thundurus does quite well. Also it can beat bulky grass types with Mixed Z-Fly, something Ludi wishes it could do. Kingdra also has the very useful advantage of having excellent defensive typing and good bulk. I'm not saying your nomination is wrong, in fact I'd support C, but make no mistake, running it instead of Kingdra comes at alot of oppurtunity cost.

Also I support C- for Omastar. It hits harder than Keldeo (Modest), can 2HKO the best rain resists with Specs Hydro Pump / Hydro Vortex in the rain and can run niche Spikes sets. But its below average speed leaves it prone to be outsped by fast Scarfers even in the rain, especially as its niche lies in not running a speed boosting nature.

Edit: Don't run Shell Smash without Power Herb guys. In fact SS Omastar is less viable as it prefers to just cream out teams and requires waaaay too much support to set up and is a wadte of precious rain turns.
I agree with Heracross for B- rank - Heracross is an excellent guts user that puts in a lot of work as a wallbreaker that isn't slow. A few complain about the burn damage and I have to say that if you use life orb then, what's wrong with Flame Orb on Guts? You're losing less health than Life Orb and getting the same damage output as Choice Band without being limited to using one move. I've been noticing that stall has been getting been getting better through the bans and recent drops in Clefable and Mantine which makes Heracross that much better as stall teams don't tend to have any good answers for it.
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 366-432 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 195-230 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^And that's without using adamant nature which is perfectly viable too.
I've noticed that Heracross is also great against Balanced teams as Balanced tend to hate losing a member constantly with this threat being able to come in pretty easily a lot of the times on scald, dark attack spam, and mons that don't tend to have too much power like tsareena (trop kick can be annoying but you force it out with the fear of mega horn knocking it out even at -1 so, you can just sd up on the switch or still do a lot of damage with guts boosted cc or m-horn), forretress, mandibuzz, and amoonguss (coming in on spore while the flame orb has already activated is cash).
This mon obviously has problems vs Hyper Offense but, with it's mediocre bulk it can still come in and net a knock out against threats like Bisharp.
Also, you don't have to run Megahorn, Close Combat, Facade, you can also run Stone Edge (for Mantine) and Knock Off (for ghost types that you outspeed like Decideye and non scarf Chandelure).

Ludicolo for C- or C rank makes sense as a solid nomination - Ludicolo is definitely important for rain as it can put in work against Gastrodon, Raikou, and it can run HP electric for Mantine as the slot is usually left up for whatever (rain dance or scald). It also works on hyper offensive rain cores with Kabutops as it does have decent special bulk and can come in on weaker special hits and proceed to sweep or punch holes.
The B tier is slightly more expansive, with the B+ tier representing Pokemon that are fairly common and threatening but don't quite make the cut for A-, while the B- tier represents Pokemon who fill minor, but relevant, niches. Below the B tier, the generic C tier displays the rest of the Pokemon that are usable in UU, but don't have a niche that is appreciated by most UU teams.​
I think Venusaur should be nominated for B- because this Pokémon fills the "minor but relevant niche" in UU thanks to being able to be a Chlorophyll sweeper.

I feel that C was too low of a ranking for Venusaur because it can be appreciated by UU teams. Currently 11 out of the 26 Pokémon between and including those from the S and A- ranks have a hard time with Venusaur. Azumarill (the exception being a +6 Azumarill which Aqua Jet is needed which is nerfed under the Sun and Venusaur outspeeds it), Thundurus, Hippowdon, Politoed, non-Psychic variants of Primarina (despite this being existent), non-Acrobatics Gliscor (which is somewhat rare), non-banded Krookodile, Raikou and Swampert find it difficult to switch in to Venusaur or hit it for decent damage.

This Pokémon is best played under the Sun and I do think that this limits Venusaur from becoming higher than B material for now but Venusaur easily fits into the B- criteria as stated above as it fills this "minor but relevant niche" which teams in UU appreciate.
Seconding. It puts it great typing and speed to good use, being a neat offensive pivot to relevant threats like Hydreigon, Keldeo, Krook and Zydog. Besides keeping momentum with the aforementioned set, it can take on a more support-oriented role with Tailwind. There's a wealth of Pokemon in the tier that would benefit on a few turns of augmented speed to dominate opposing teams (Nidos, Volcanion, Primarina, etc.) which makes such support more relevant and valuable this time around.

Nominating Heracross for B-

I'd say the best set for Heracross right now would be Flame Orb + SD for its excellent wallbreaking prowess. This set really appreciates the burn nerf giving it more time to unleash Guts-boosted furies. It finds decent opportunities to set up with the inclusion of the bulky Ground-types in the tier, most notably Hippowdon and Gliscor. It just tears through defensive cores like a glowing 1000° knife on butter; physically-defensive walls fall to boosted Close Combats and resists gets mangled by Facade. With many great defensive Pokemon chilling in the tier, their efficient removal is of much value and SD Hera does just that.
i agree with hera. it even deserves A- i think.
it has perfect wallbreaking coverage with knock off, facade and cc. running sub over sd is very viable as well. as burned guts hera already hits so hard (574 atk my goodness), even harder than the mega. with right prediction it could easily take 1 or severingly dent a physical wall. team it with a wisher and you have a couple of bombshells at your disposal. and don't forget its scarf set is still very viable. meaning you can bluff with freaking hera.
I think Suicune should be A- ranked, or at the very least, B+. The CroCune set is still effective at sweeping teams late game, when hard counters, such as Volcanion and Mantine, are removed. Its natural bulk, great typing, and good ability make it a solid choice for a bulky sweeper. Scald was nerfed due to burn doing way less damage, but overall, I believe Suicune is a good choice for a bulky water. I just don't see how Swampert is in A- rank and Suicine isn't. Swampert still has the same roles as it did last gen, and I would say it's also less effective compared to less gen, since it still lacks reliable recovery, and a some defoggers completely set on it (Latias and Mantine come to mind).

Suicine is also pretty splashable for Bulky and Balanced teams. While fire types are less prevalent, having a mon that can switch into things like Mega Aero, unboosted Scizor, and things like that is always nice. It has other effective sets, such as Offense CM, Rain Dance + Water Z, Rest Roar, CM Roar, Sub + Roar, and even things like Sub CM Work.
it single handedly can destroy stall teams with SD eq + facade
on dedicated stall teams it can be the stall breaker (alongside clef its a deadly core)
on non stall teams, it serves as a great all purpose check/counter to a lot of mons, including cobalion, bisharp, crook, etc
it can run a variety of sets, defog, u-turn, rocks, the nasty sub protect toxic, altho SD roost is the best set imo
after toxic orb its a gr8 status absorber and knock off switchin
depending on who sets up first, it can beat top threats like SD scizor, cm clef, thundurus sometimes
all in all annoying pokemon to face and almost makes teams require ice or strong water coverage
(also from full it can live almost any non-ice type attack with like a good amount of spdef investment)

in my experience hippowdown on paper seems like a great mon with good def and HP and recovery and rocks, but its way too easily pressured imo. if you go full def, it can check bishop and cobalion and co, but loses/cant switch into to electrics with hp ice so it kinda fails as a ground in that regard. additionally once leftovers are knocked off (which will happen unless you have another bisharp check, its even more pressured to recover every turn its in unless you want to risk being iron head flinched to death.
if you go mixed, it can check electrics a lot better, but you then you kinda need a backup bisharp and co check
hippowdown also has a bit of 4MSS as you kinda want toxic, whirlwind, and occasionally stone edge as the last move but you can only choose one :/ (depending on ur choice it becomes setup bait for a lot of stuff)
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The reason Hippowdon seems like a great Pokemon in practice is because... it's actually a great Pokemon. Even the "standard" spread (240 HP / 72+ Def / 196 SpD) serves as a perfectly adequate Bisharp check (it needs slightly more Defense investment to be a guaranteed answer to Z-Close Combat Cobalion).

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Hippowdon: 298-351 (70.9 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Hippowdon: 325-383 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 236-282 (87 - 104%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (it KO's after Stealth Rock and a round of Life Orb recoil)
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Hippowdon: 339-399 (80.7 - 95%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (92 Def ensures that it survives. You do need a secondary Cobalion check, because Hippowdon doesn't KO back.)
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Hippowdon: 186-220 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Hippowdon: 186-220 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Note that Hippowdon also checks several of the most commonly used Pokemon in the meta, that Hippowdon's weaknesses are easy to cover with other Pokemon that are strong in the current meta, and that Sand Stream allows Hippowdon to mess with the game plans of other weather teams and inflict additional residual damage upon its opponents.
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Surprised Darmanitan hasn't been added to the list yet,

I'd like to formally nominate Darmanitan to C or C+. I believe there is a good amount of viability with this mon. Darmanitan essentially feels like a better Infernape that can just completely destroy teams that aren't prepared for it.
Darmanitan has a nice time taking on Bisharp, Scizor, and Cobalion all of which are prominent threats in this current meta.
The scarf set will do you just fine, being able to dish out heavy hitting u-turns not many mons will appreciate taking as well as mons switching in to flare blitzes

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp in Rain: 266-314 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Scizor: 916-1084 (267 - 316%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 432-510 (133.3 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 260-306 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
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Dropping by to make three announcements:

First, we finally got ourselves a real banner! Big shout out to user monomite for the impressive job n_n

Second, I forgot to add both Heracross and Torkoal to the original rankings, so I stealthily added them out to C and C- respectively. I'm also adding Ludicolo to C+ and Seismitoad to C- as of this post due to their niches in the current metagame.

Third, and this one should've probably been said earlier: there's no rework planned for the lower rankings, since they're supposed to be experimental for now. C- at the moment includes pretty much every Pokemon that could possibly work on a SM UU team, but I'll be removing stuff as people realize the Pokemon in question have no notable niche in the metagame. I also reckon that some Pokemon (like Infernape, Suicune and maybe Crobat) are ranked way lower than they should likely be, but this is mostly due to both power creep and limited experience w/ the Pokemon from the viability team's part, so expect some major changes once the tier stabilizes any further.


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Clearly more offensive Pokemon, access to Nasty Plot I guess that's the reason. Not a big players of weather team but Torkoal is pretty slow and even with Sr + Rapid Spin I don't think he can be as good as Ninetales cuz' that one can put a biggest offensive pressure.
Alright, time for me to get hate from people for this single nomination.

Biggest Linda deserves at least to be B/B-. The only real hit it took this gen was from the Gale Wings nerf, and even then it still has that base 126 speed, allowing it to outrun most everything without a Scarf, speed boost, or having Mega-Aerodactyl in its name. On top of that, there was 3 things in ORAS Talonflame really hated to try to fight.

Tyranitar? Not here.
Heatran? Not here.
Rotom-Wash? Not here.

Honestly the biggest switchin I can think of right now is bulky rock types(namely Gigalith and Rhyperior). Naturally other physically bulky tanks can go vs it, but mons like Hippo(who doesn't often run Edge) and Cress are both worn down by any set running Taunt or SD. Even Talon's biggest competition in the flying market, Staraptor, got tossed out of the tier again.

So give the bird the justice it deserves.
Surprised Darmanitan hasn't been added to the list yet,

I'd like to formally nominate Darmanitan to C or C+. I believe there is a good amount of viability with this mon. Darmanitan essentially feels like a better Infernape that can just completely destroy teams that aren't prepared for it.
Darmanitan has a nice time taking on Bisharp, Scizor, and Cobalion all of which are prominent threats in this current meta.
The scarf set will do you just fine, being able to dish out heavy hitting u-turns not many mons will appreciate taking as well as mons switching in to flare blitzes

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp in Rain: 266-314 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Scizor: 916-1084 (267 - 316%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 432-510 (133.3 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 260-306 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
I disagree with this nom and the comparison to Infernape (though I can understand how darm seems better due to 140 atk sheer force boosted flare blitz that hits under especially with drought being legal in the tier).
Darmanitan hits hard, yeah, but it does have a shallow movepool that prevents it from dealing with water types that well and rain teams are HUGE in this tier. True, bisharp, scizor, and cobalion are huge threats in this tier and darm can knock them out with a flare blitz, now tell us something we don't know like this:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 257-304 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 234-277 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Darmantian doesn't reliably check Bisharp at all, even if stealth rocks aren't up Darm still knocks itself out with recoil if the Bisharp is adamant and doesn't get a low roll and even at jolly darm knocks itself out with recoil if Bisharp gets a high roll. Infernape doesn't tend to care about this because 1. It resists sucker punch and 2. Infernape can just dodge the sucker punch with iron fist boosted mach punch or vacuum wave which knocks out Bisharp.
Now with Scizor people obviously run a water type because its UU because they want something that can take fire hits for it; even though fire types aren't common in this tier, a lot of threats run coverage for it. So it's natural that someone is going to send a bulky water type to take the hit, Darm doesn't have much for them except for a u-turn. Infernape doesn't have this problem because it has grass knot and iron fist boosted thunder punch.
Cobalion can run rock polish (the killintime set with fightinium z and I have seen some people run it on ladder) which means darm isn't outspeeding even with scarf and no longer checks it. Infernape has super effective priority for it and only needs prior damage to knock it out.
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 143-172 (44.1 - 53%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If Darmanitan does get ranked, I wouldn't care though, I'm just saying it makes sense that the vr council left it unranked. I could see it being C- though as a choice banded/choice scarfed darm under the sun can even scare water types away.
I don't agree with how Nui's post was worded but I do think Darm should be ranked. Its scarf set is outsped by several scarfers such as Hydreigon, Mienshao and Infernape, but its strength makes up for that; sturdier water types like Slowbro and Suicune are slowly making a comeback (as they should), but we are not quite there yet. Having a fast, strong fire type can be rather annoying to deal with, and Darmanitan fills that niche better than Infernape (which is piss-weak in its scarf set and while it does have priority, it does lack the speed in its band set). Darmanitan is by no means excellent, It is hardly a bisharp check, and hardly outclasses Infernape as a scarfer as Ape has some defensive utility to it, fighting STAB and higher base speed allowing it to outspeed other scarfed threats. However, I do think C- would be fine for it.

Seconding killintime's Cobalion nomination btw, that mon is great.

Cobalion definitely fits in A+ imo. Not only is it one of the best answers to Bisharp, it is an incredibly threatening sweeper thanks to All Out Pummeling doing tons of damage to even many resists. It also does carry a surprising amount of versatility in just the offensive z move set alone, as beyond sd and stab moves, it can carry rock polish to devastate offensive teams by boosting its already solid speed tier, X-Scissor to lure in psychic types like Starmie, which otherwise hampers its ability to sweep, Stone Edge for Thundurus, although Cobalion does kind of have to hit it on the switch as it doesn't want to take a Focus Blast, or even Stealth Rock to take advantage of the switches it forces, and free up a slot on the team that would otherwise go to another mon for the sake of setting up rocks. I often find myself using Cobalion just because it pairs so well with many things in the tier, especially any psychic types that can lure in dark types for cobalion to take advantage of.


Also, I wouldn't mind maybe raising Crawdaunt to C+. Yes, Crawdaunt is slow and can't take many hits, and while it can't really switch in easily, the same goes for most things in the higher ranks. None of the S rank mons can switch in, even azumarill is 2hko'd by banded if you click crab hammer, and obviously the others are just going to get blown away, so while they might be able to force Crawdaunt out, it has to be after a sack, as none of them want to take a hit from this thing. Hell, none of the things in the A Ranks want to switch in since Daunt can potentially blow them away with the right move, or in the case of Keldeo remove its item and make it less threatening. Not to mention that a lot of teams are relying on Amoongus and Latias as water resists, and Crawdaunt just shits on them if it clicks knock off. So why isn't this being proposed even higher, you may ask? Well, it does hate the fact that it doesn't like to switch in to others at all, thanks to its bad speed and typing, as while it can use aqua jet for some priority, and it can pick off a lot of frail offensive mons after an it of prior damage, it still struggles against offensive teams, making it a mattchup based mon. But it's honestly as good as if not better than other things in C+ which also happen to usually be matchup based, so at the very least I think it should move up to C+, as I think it is at least on par with if not better than the majority of the things in that ranking. I mean, I think that something that maims or even kills almost everything the the A ranks with its stabs alone at least belongs in C+, since unlike the dogshit in C, I can actually see a valid reason to use Crawdaunt on a serious team, and is at least on par with things like Haxorus, Snorlax, and Roserade.

Calcs for Crawdaunt:
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 308-364 (113.6 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 398-470 (133.1 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor: 216-256 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 164-193 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 270-318 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 230-272 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 188-222 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, it is matchup based, but at least it's not complete deadwieght against offends thanks to priority that can hit pretty hard. I really don't think it belongs in C, and while it might be too matchup based, and not good enough against offense which is the most dominant playstyle to be fair, I think it is too good to be lumped with shit like Kommo-O, Salazzle, and Venusaur, all of which are far more niche than Crawdaunt.


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Nominating Infernape to B rank
This thing was extremely overlooked pre-bans, and now with Drizzle, Azu AND Thundy gone, Infernape is absolutely deserving of rising above anything in C+ or B- (why was Chandy even ahead of it to begin with). Infernape's Nasty Plot set is absolutely devastating late game, as its only hard checks in Starmie, Sharpedo (assuming it doesn't have vacuum), Primarina, Alakazam, Keldeo and Latias are quite capable of being eliminated early game given the general ease that comes with building around Infernape. It sits at an amazing Speed tier and is capable of just annihilating the tier's most common and effective defensive core in Amoonguss and Hippowdon once boosted. Bulky water types bar Prima really aren't a concern either, as most just crumple to boosted Grass Knot, especially after being weakened by a teammate. Infernape is also able to absolutely decimate other playstyles as well, as almost nothing wants to come in on Fire Blast / Focus Blast. Infernape's amazing defensive typing also allows it to really sturdily check Bisharp and Scizor or nab a NP boost when forcing them out. Lastly, Infernape has, or will I guess, absolutely respond to the bans positively, as the tier's lack of Drizzle means that it isn't stopped in its tracks by Rain teams and it mustn't worry about its biggest offensive checks in Thundurus and Azumarill anymore. Overall, Infernape is just a ridiculously powerful late game cleaner with a plethora of other options at its disposal (scarf and band sets plow through shit too but NP is what I feel warrants mentioning most), and absolutely deserves to be ranked above Pokemon that its absolutely more consistent than in Lucario, Toxicroak, Chandelure and Swellow.

With my most important nom out of the way, I would like to discuss the shift in viability of various mons that excelled on rain only. Politoed should absolutely go unranked, as in no way does it have any distinguishable niche over any bulky water type with its ability banned, unless you want to count Perish Song Whirlpool trapping, which well, didn't help it out of PU at all last gen and definitely won't this time around. Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Seismitoad all deserve to be unranked as well, since they are all absolutely outclassed now as offensive water types with no way to properly abuse their abilities outside of really niche options like setting up rain themselves or using Tornadus for support. Kingdra should drop to at least C+, since this thing's only worth in the tier with drizzle gone is as a dragon dancer, which is almost always better done by Haxorus, which will now share a rank with Kingdra for the time being. Lastly, I think that Toxicroak should drop to C+, as its best uses in the metagame were as a check to rain and Azumarill, which are both banned. Toxicroak can still function as a set up sweeper, but really struggles due to its really poor speed and bulk against common things in Krookodile and Hydreigon. It also struggles to check the tier's best offensive Water-types in Primarina and Starmie, as both carry Psychic and can just annihilate Toxicroak with the move and usually tank a hit in the process. Thanks for reading everyone! It's great to be getting back into the ol UU routine, hope you guys agree with what you've read! :)


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Gastrodon from B- -> C or C- (unranked?)

Gastrodon's main niche was to check Rain teams (specifically Kabutops, Politoed, no-Grass Knot Thundurus-I, Keldeo, etc.). Now that Politoed and Thundurus-I are out of the picture, Gastrodon lost a lot of its viability. However, I do believe that Water-types (bulkier, more passive ones bar Mantine) will start being more prevalent now that Thundurus-I is gone, so that's why Gastrodon should remain on the VR since it can check them decently well.

edit-(nominated already) Gliscor from A- -> A

Gliscor is looking a lot better now that Azumarill, Drizzle and Thundurus-I have been banned. Gliscor checks the top tier threats (no boosts Bisharp, Scizor, Mega-Aero without Aqua Tail) while also being able to take advantage of passive play with Taunt or Swords Dance. Being a Flying-type that is neutral to rocks is also pretty nice as well while also not minding Knock Off.


Cobalion -> A+

I agree with this. Without mentioning what already has been said, Cobalion now has the power that it didn't have back in ORAS due to Z-crystals. It checks a lot of top tier threats while also being kinda unpredictable since it can run Rock Polish, SD, Calm Mind, AOP, Defensive, etc. With AOP being one of the better sets due since it can deal heavy damage while also being a great Knock Off sponge. Cobalion also takes advantage of passive play quite well due to access to various boosting moves.
nomming Ribombee to C+ rank (maybe B-)

Has many flaws - its extreme frailty, weakness to all hazards and shallow movepool all examples, hence why I'm not pushing for it to rise any higher. However it has some good points that allow it to carve out a niche in this metagame:
  • excellent speed tier that outspeeds many relevant threats such as alakazam, raikou, gengar, azelf etc
  • does hit decently hard with choice specs equipped (this is the set I've found to be most effective)
  • has the option to set up with quiver dance
  • fairy typing and stab is excellent
Ribombee @ Choice Specs/ Focus Sash
Ability: Sweet Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Moonblast
- U-turn/ Quiver Dance
- Psychic/ Hidden Power Fire


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Updating to reflect most recent ban wave. The following Pokemon have been removed entirely from the list:


(In spite of the Drizzle ban, Seismitoad is staying in C- for now due to its niche as a lesser Swampert with an immunity to Water-type moves, which is still a notable niche considering that Keldeo, Primarina and Volcanion are all just as viable as they've ever been. For reference, I'm not saying that 'Toed is a solid answer to any of those, but it still discourages them from clicking their Water-type moves to an extent)

Misc updates:

Kingdra was moved from A to C-

In spite of Drizzle's recent ban, Kingdra still retains a very small niche as the strongest Swift Swim abuser on manual rain, as well as its CritDra set. I've also theorized with Dragon Dance + Hydro Vortex, but aside from the unique typing there's absolutely no reason to use this over the much stronger physical Dragon-type Pokemon this tier has.

Cobalion was moved from A to A+

Most of the arguments to move this up were spot on, and I agree that A Rank didn't really do this thing justice. The introduction of Z-Moves patched up many of the issues this Pokemon had in the past, and the fact that it fares amazingly against many of the current metagame trends while also benefiting from the most recent ban wave only adds up to Cobalion's perks. For more reasoning, check the various posts that have been made on it so far.

Infernape was moved from C+ to B-

One of the Pokemon people in this thread wanted to see moving up the most, and after trying it out myself I can definitely agree that C+ was an unfair rank for Infernape to be in. In fact, I could see this moving even higher in the future, but that's for another time. With that said, being one of the few viable answers to Bisharp, as well as one of the few viable Fire-type Pokemon that UU currently has makes Infernape an unique Pokemon that is pretty easy to throw on most offensive teams that are hard pressed for a Scizor/Bisharp check. Personally, I've had some success with this Pokemon's Choice Scarf set, but its level of versatility is pretty high. Finally, this is one of the few Pokemon with massive unexplored Z-Move potential. Stuff like Nasty Plot + Bloom Doom or any of its STAB moves, Swords Dance with Continental Crush or Gigavolt Havoc are all sets that could theoretically work as lures of sorts.

Discussion points:

All of the nominations that people have made so far should make up for some good discussion. I'd specifically like to see some more discussion on Alakazam, Suicune, Ribombee and Talonflame. Finally, here's a nomination of my own:

Clefable up to S Rank

I don't have much time on my hands to develop this nomination right now, but the fact that this thing's Calm Mind set has options to screw over basically any popular check aside from the Nidos is pretty ridiculous. Aside from that, it's also one of the current faces of stall due to its Unaware set. Considering its level of versatility and impact on the metagame, I think that it would only be fair to move this thing up. Let me know what you guys think!
Hey guys! Resident UU role model Omfuga here!

I think Alakazam should move to A+ since it's a staple of hyper offense teams and one of the best pokemon in the tier currently. The life orb set is a powerful wallbreaker that is extremely threatening to stall and balance teams. Some of UU's premier special walls like blissey and porygon2 are easily 2hkod by its access to powerful coverage and a STAB that hits on the physical side. hp fire/dgleam/psyshock/shadow ball p much covers LO kazam for everything in UU so you don't even need focus blast for coverage (though it allows you to 2hko porygon). Magic guard allows zam's sash to constantly be in tact all game regardless of hazards, sand, or whatever. Alakazam can 2hko almost all of the offensive pokemon in the tier, so it's really good on hyper offense as a glass cannon with the ability to survive any single attack. Also, Zam can be a real thorn in the side of hyper offense since it's so fast and can OHKO most of the mons used on it. HO relies on momentum and zam basically steals momentum by getting a kill automatically without dying.

Zam also has a pretty nice support movepool with counter, encore, and taunt, to stop fat stuff occasionally while using focus sash. Counter is cool because (even on life orb with 16 defense EVs) aerodactyl can't OHKO zam and you can kill it for trying to trap you. But PS hasn't implemented counter mguard zam on the teambuilder yet.

Anyway due to zam's qualities and its ability to threaten every style depending on the set it uses, I think it should rise to A+
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i think alakazam was definitely a+ in oras and even banworthy but sumo so far seems to be much harder on it then oras was. For starters, neither scizor and bisharp which are currently the biggest threats in the tier were present in oras and both can switch in on its stab and threaten an ohko before it can hit them with coverage which is quite a stark contrast to oras where the only good psychic switchins offense had were metagross, krook, hydra and kinda celebi all of which had to run scarf if they wanted to not have to swallow a follow up coverage move. Furthermore, alakazam is also hampered by latias who not only provides competition as a fast psychic attacker that actually has resistances and bulk but also is a decent check to zam, having a reasonable chance of surviving psychic+shadowball without rocks and ohkoing back with soul dew draco. And not only are scizor and bisharp common but the only good Megas atm are aero and shark neither of which are good news for zam. Honestly the only thing zam has going for it in comparison to oras is that sableye isn't good but even sab has been basically replaced by klefki which is even worse for zam. Idk, probably gonna get beat down for this judging by the likes fuga got but i don't think zam is a+ worthy atm.

As for talonflame, I do think it is b or b- worthy. Flying is by far the best offensive stab and conventional checks like mega aero get blown away by +2 skystrike. Checking scizor and sharp and revenging shark is nice too and the sr weakness is hardly crippling with lots of good hazard removal available.


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Clefable is a pokemon I thought would be easily quickbanned or at least banned in the last set of council votes by a heavy margin. I was slightly disappointed to see the pink menace stay. I feel it's easily one of the best pokemon in the tier right now, if not the best, and am surprised it was even below S as of now. Clefable is splashable on almost any team archetype with unaware being the most common on stall and cm being the most common on balance to bulky offense. Fairy is shown again this generation to be an incredible defensive typing, giving Clefable many more opportunities to set up and take hits compared to its competitors such as Reuniclus and Suicune. Clefable also has an insanely large movepool with a wide variety of coverage options to run alongside its STAB that allow it to hit most of its decent checks/counters in one way or another with a few being flamethrower/fireblast in the case of Amoongus, Bisharp and Scizor or something like stored power or even psychic, for more immediate power, in the case that it wants to hit poison types better such as like Tentacruel and Gengar.

A set that I thought was pretty cool after manipulative bopped me with it is cosmic power which, along with Clefable's amazing typing, allows it to take hits on the physically defensive side better from various mons that might be able to take on its cm set or prevent the opposing physical attackers to whittle Clefable down into being revenge killed. Clefable also has a large support movepool in the form of Thunder Wave, Toxic, Heal Bell, Encore and Stealth Rock (and probably more I'm forgetting), which allows it to become an extremely useful asset on stall teams from being a cleric to just stopping set up mons in their tracks or help with utility on bulky offense by paralyzing more offensive pokemon for slower things and acting as a pivot.

Clefable's typing, movepool and ability to fill different niches on a variety of teams when necessary are a force to be reckoned with and it fully deserves to move up to S in my opinion. There's probably more I'm forgetting but I kind of want to take a nap now.
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Well I have made some tests on Talonflame and it went overall well, since its speed tier is really good right now. It can run flynium-z to take advantage of gale wings twice while keeping the possibility of a will-o-wisp utility set and i feel like going offensive on this will give a better outcome. However, I'm somewhat clueless on where it should be ranked because its a decent attacker but not that easy to fit on a team. I feel like its definitely viable but could stay in C rank for now.

nominating Krookodile to A because its still good on intimidate, rocks and scarf, can run steelium-z for them fairies and normalium-z with me first which is really hard to prepare for.


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A+> S
Hello, I want to discuss Mega Aerodactyl, it's a very impressive Pokemon in the metagame, its capacity to be extremely versatile, and the fact that it is usable in any type of team, are really good points in favor to bring it in S rank. Many teams as a bulky offense, balance and even stall appreciate the support that mega Aerodactyl offers, during the teambuilding phase, for example, if we need a faster Pokemon to deal with a certain threat, there is your answer, mega Aero!, If you need a pursuit trapper in a stall team, Mega Aero is probably the best option as well was in ORAS UU, Gods like Christo. used it in the ladder, and it worked very well against many stall breakers as Celebi and Chandelure (just to mention something), If you need a strong flying check, there is mega aero, which offers to you a really good offensive support against flying types, it also appreciates also to be supported by hazard stacking cores, like roserade+pert, which helps a lot mega Aero in the game. The ease with which this Pokemon be adapted to a build is impressive, many guys, probably, come right away saying: "hey, but we have a lot of answers for mega Aerodactyl in this metagame, we got Hippo o.o, and many checks as Scizor, Sharp, and Keldeo", I would have to say that my nomination was made for its versatility and ease with which it works in the metagame despite several answers have come in this generation.

B-> B
Secondly, i would speak of a Pokemon that is really enjoying myself so much at the moment, im talking about Gastrodon. this pokemon is really a great support for other water types who suffer electrics attacks, its excellent ground type also makes it very good answer to Raikou, it enjoys the fact that Thundurus left the tier, since Grass knot was one of the common variants. It's very good in balance teams, especially coupled with Clefable, that supports it against the status moves due to Magic guard, finally, its a interesting check to poison types like Tentacruel and Nidoking (if it run a Spdef spread.). I would nom this for B rank for the reasons listed above.

Support for S rank
To end this post, I will support the Pearl's nom, this evil is basically one of the most versatile Pokemons in the tier, can run a lot of sets, from CM variants to Unaware support, it also can run many variants, like Life orb CM, used by Killintime , its a really scary set from what i've seen, especially for bulky builds, it also can run calm mind+ flamethrower, which hits Scizors and bisharp coming in, expecting a Moonblast or a Calm mind respectively, i like also knock off+ stealth rock, which is a very interesting support set in my opinion. This pokemon is very cool, can switch into conkeldurr and shao very safely if they don't run pjab, can pivot into status moves due to magic guard, after some CM boost is really hard to deal with, the only safest switch ins are the Nidos, which don't appreciates Boltbeam variant. This pink mon can be used in bulky offense, balance and even stall teams, this is another cool reason to put in S rank.

Have a good day UUers! :toast:
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