Metagame SM ZU NP Stage 1.0: It’s Time

[Xayah]

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With a new policy regarding OMs as a whole, ZeroUsed has been placed in the new category Unofficial Metagames, as I’m sure you know if you’ve found this thread. What this entails, for now, is that we have our own subforum, which will be closely moderated by 5gen and Xayah! As you may have noticed, as of right now, 7 threads have been uploaded: This NP thread, Viability Rankings, Sample Teams, Good Cores, Resources, Information Hub, and Simple Questions & Simple Answers. The Viability Rankings and Resources have been directly taken from our previous threads, but the other three have been completely revamped and are given their own thread.

The Information Hub has everything you need to know about SM ZU: its banlist, council members, tiering philosophy, tiering history, moderators, links to all of its important resources, forum rules, etc. It’s your goto if you ever forget or can’t find something. The Sample Teams thread, meanwhile, is something most of you won’t be too surprised with, but it’ll allow our community to submit samples much more easily. For the specific procedure, please check out the thread itself, but it’s very simple. Similarly, you’ll be able to easily submit Good Cores now as well, simply check out that thread to find out how to. The Simple Questions & Simple Answers thread speaks for itself; any question that can be asked and/or answered in a single line should go right there. Do not post such questions in this thread.

That leaves us with this one. The NP thread is something very common among the forums so most of you will know what it is about. Basically, this is where you get to discuss the metagame as much as you want. However, there are a few things to be mentioned here. While we are open to hearing what elements from the metagame the community considers to be problematic, we don’t want to see single line posts saying little more than ‘Magikarp is broken because this one time it Z-Splashed and then Flailed my whole team.’ If there is a broken element in the meta, it’s likely it’s already on the council’s radar, but if you want to convince us to tackle it in future, a well-thought out and carefully worded post may do wonders. On a related note, do not use this thread to speculate about future metagames. We never know what tier shifts will bring us, we never know what Pokemon will be banned or unbanned or suspected in the future. So please, keep theorymonning to a minimum.

Lastly, NO ONE LINERS. We will be closely moderating this and one liners and other uninformed posts will be deleted and possibly infracted. This does not mean you’re not allowed to talk about lower-ranked threats, because those most certainly exist and are a part of our meta. However, please avoid posts along the lines of ‘Ariados is amazing, it has Sticky Web and Toxic Thread and it should be used more’ with no other content.

Otherwise, please do have fun in this new era of ZU. We have a lot of projects planned that will hopefully be going up very soon and we’re looking forward to working with our community even more than we have been. It’s Time guys.

 

[5gen]

Hey everyone. The January tier shifts came and went, and I have to say that the current metagame has been pretty stable. However, the viability rankings have been a hot topic lately with the absence of an S-rank and the subsequent stiff competition within the A ranks. It's especially divisive to rank Pokemon in the current metagame because unlike previous ZU metas, I would argue that there is no centralizing force; rather, the A+ are (imo) in the same ballpark and no single Pokemon stands a notch above all the rest.

That being said, Komala was recently nominated to S rank. Komala is probably the single-most versatile Pokemon in the current metagame and its sets are considerably effective. Like Xayah argued in his VR post, the BU Wish Knock Off is the main thing that could drive Komala from A+ to S. However, this reminds me of when Komala originally rose to S rank, with CB being viewed as the top set at the time by many and setup, wish spin, and AV sets seen as less dominant. As phys def Golem and Gourg-XL were spammed, Komala gradually became less effective and dropped back to A+.

Now we're looking at roughly the same situation imo. Teams will prep for BU Knock Komala and it'll fall off. This is exemplified with the decline of Pokemon such as Altaria and Bronzor, and the rise of Pokemon such as Shiftry, Silvally-Fighting, and Mawile. While there are other metagames trends at play that affect the viability of the aforementioned Pokemon, the point is that more and more things are being used that take advantage of BU Knock Komala.

On the other hand, I do acknowledge that much of the Pokemon that check BU Knock Komala drop to CB or fear STAB/U-turn from AV. I've also been testing Komala and its various sets a lot more lately. As a result, I'm more on the fence compared to before where I was dead set on Komala as an A+ Pokemon.

Speaking of A+, I don't really think anything else can realistically be S. All the Pokemon have flaws or something exploitable which hold them back from surpassing A+. For example, while Evire is incredibly splashable, Choice Scarf is prediction reliant and can be easy to take advantage of. Anyway it's getting late and this post is more to spark discussion, so I look forward to what people have to say. Might make another post later on about building in the current meta.

 

[Xayah]

That being said, Komala was recently nominated to S rank. Komala is probably the single-most versatile Pokemon in the current metagame and its sets are considerably effective. Like Xayah argued in his VR post, the BU Wish Knock Off is the main thing that could drive Komala from A+ to S. However, this reminds me of when Komala originally rose to S rank, with CB being viewed as the top set at the time by many and setup, wish spin, and AV sets seen as less dominant. As phys def Golem and Gourg-XL were spammed, Komala gradually became less effective and dropped back to A+.

Now we're looking at roughly the same situation imo. Teams will prep for BU Knock Komala and it'll fall off. This is exemplified with the decline of Pokemon such as Altaria and Bronzor, and the rise of Pokemon such as Shiftry, Silvally-Fighting, and Mawile. While there are other metagames trends at play that affect the viability of the aforementioned Pokemon, the point is that more and more things are being used that take advantage of BU Knock Komala.

On the other hand, I do acknowledge that much of the Pokemon that check BU Knock Komala drop to CB or fear STAB/U-turn from AV. I've also been testing Komala and its various sets a lot more lately. As a result, I'm more on the fence compared to before where I was dead set on Komala as an A+ Pokemon.

Hey, a perfect opportunity for me to respond to. This probably won't be very long, but oh well.

Now, honestly, for the most part, I don't disagree with what you said. You're right, BU Knock isn't without its checks (although Mawile isn't one of them because Komala can just set up on it. It's a really weird 1v1), and they'll rise in usage in response to BU Knock. And I'm also not gonna say that that's the only reason they're rising either; Shiftry is just good because it breaks a ton of defensive Pokemon, Silvally-Fighting is also a response to Shiftry, and Mawile checks the likes of Toucannon very well too, which has also been rising. So yeah, you'd be right for the most part, but there's a few things I'd like to note.

First off, for the VR specifically, we don't really rank based on future metagames. Just because a Pokemon can be adapted to doesn't mean it can't be S rank before it gets appropriately adapted to, which as of right now I don't think it has. While yea, the Pokemon you mentioned are certainly very good and rising, they're by no means everywhere yet, and a defensive check just straight up has not yet been found. So as of right now, I think BU Knock is an S worthy set.

However, second, I also think Komala is one of the most fluid Pokemon we will ever see due to its insane versatility. It is going to adapt to every metagame trend you throw at it. It just dropped and people haven't discovered its checks yet? Murder balance and bulkier teams with CB. Gourgeist-XL risen to prominence as its major check? Murder balance and bulkier teams with BU Knock. Shiftry, Monferno, and Silvally-Fighting on the rise? Use Band again, or maybe some other set will rise to excellence, like Choice Scarf or physically defensive SD or whatever. This thing is incredible in its ability to adapt to what's going on to counter it. This isn't really an argument for it going to S now, because again, we don't rank based on future metagames, but for those of you that are concerned about Komala in the future, don't be. He's gonna be great.

SLEEPY BOI

 

[Apagogie]

I would like to add, following the 5gen's post, that I think that in most of cases Vigoroth is currently a better Bulk Upper than Komala.

The reason is the trends aren't favorable to Komala BU, notably due to the influence of Shiftry and Combusken. A lot of usuable mons against which Komala was strong falled in usage such as 5gen mentioned, Bronzor or Altaria for example. At the opposite, a lot of common mons are more played at the moment for their ability to check/counter these threats. Once again 5gen quoted Vally-Fighting, I add Monferno and Mareanie as well which is one of the best answer against Combusken.

Vigoroth over Komala gets different advantages. A better speed (dont forget the speed is an element of defense, for example to heal itself), a better physical bulk and, a recovery in one turn. Nevertheless, it suffers far more from status even substitute/taunt is able to bypass this kind of flaw. It cannot pass ghost types either so yeah, it's clear that it needs more support. This kind of thing isn't new and during several months until now, Komala was considered better because it is simply more splahsable, it needs less support, it is more surprising as well. It was almost obvious in fact.

However, Komala BU doesnt appreciate the trends. Once the set is guessed, mons which are current now are able to easily get rid of BU Komala. Shiftry and Combusken are simply able to reverse sweep the opponent's team and beneficts in fact a lot of this kind of set. It's something which is very dangerous actually considering how threaten these two mons are. The fun fact is their common checks beneficts as well of Komala, Monferno can set up against, Silvally-Fighting deals with it barely, Mareanie simply pp stalls BU Komala and forces the opponent to switch on this defoger which is a lose of momentum.

BU Komala is a set dangerous to use currently but on the other part, all these mons which threats komala struggle far more against its best foe Vigoroth, even without the surprise factor. Sub Vigo with Return/Body Slam doesnt let Shiftry/Combusken coming for free. Shiftry simply loses against Vigoroth if it wants to switch into, Combusken is 2HKO. Monferno loses against Sub as well with the Close Combat drop, Vally-Fighting needs toxic to be able to deal with and takes in general a lot of damages which is crucial for Vally, Mareanie doesnt lose substitute, however it loses against Taunt. Vigoroth is a choice far less risky against the new trends not only because it deals better with these mons but it doesnt let you in a bad situation of reverse sweep.

It is true that Vigoroth requires more support, against ghost, toxic spikes, etc. However, in terms of pure efficacity, it is better against the recent trends than Komala. It is not something which is negligible. Can we rise a mon S Rank at the moment where its best set is partially outclassed by an other Pokémon ? It's not the future metagame, it's the actual one.

Now about its other sets, nothing has changed in good for Komala to argue in favor of a rise now. The majority of the passive mons (except one or two but it's specific to a playstyle) has fallen in usage. Apart from the surprise factor, why do you play wallbreaker komala when we have moutains of wallbreakers in ZU which are faster or bulkier ? There are reasons such as its ability to be statued or for its pivot move but it's not something which is made it without competition. To illustrate that, lets say that even is Komala is very versatile, paradoxally, the team you made with a Choice band Komala is pretty one-dimensionnal. A popular playstyle now, initiated by Rawmelon, consists in playing a bulky wallbreaker with the wish support of Lickilicky (the more classic variant is Wishiwashi-School + Licki but there are others with Abomasnow, Camerupt, Marowak,...). This kind of thing is not possible with a Komala due to the lack of general bulk (Shiftry OHKO with Knock Off without boost). If Komala gains some points thanks to its ability or its movepool, it's not the mon which brings always the freedom.

If Mawile doesnt deal with BU Koff Komala, it forces Komala Band to do prediction. Same with Vally Fighting or Monferno (I've even seen teams with Avalugg to deal with Shiftry). We aren't anymore at the age of passive builds where Band Komala had 10 000 opportunities to find a free switch. It's the reason why it is not as played as before. Simply, it requires predictions and is not favorable against common mons now. Mons such as Toucannon Z-Fly isn't as much annoyed as Komala for example. Same with Beheyeem.

To end this post which starts to be too long and on a slightly more provocative note, we often say that Komala is very verstatile and surprising and it is what which makes it so strong. The problem with this sentence isn't only that guess the set isn't something impossible, it is also that Komala isn't as versatile as we say. We could argue that it is in fact one-dimensional. Komala has a BU set which is strong against bulky builds, a CB set which is good against bulky builds and a wishtect set which is correct against bulky builds, and a SD set... which is outclased by Shiftry. The versatility of Komala is limited by its way to choose its set to threat always exactly the same kind of builds.

It is not completly true because on paper it exists some other sets not as seen which are barely strong against more offensive teams such as SD, Sucker Punch Band or Scarf. However, SD is 90% of the time outclassed by Shiftry and has few reasons to be played, Sucker Punch Band isn't advised at all when Mawile is so present and Scarf Mala doesnt threat offense as much as a classic electivire does.

Take now a mon such as Pinsir. Z-Me First destroys offenses, Mold Breaker SD 6-0 stalls. That, it is the true versatility. I could talk about Shiftry as well but i have quoted its name too many times in this post to be reasonable. Big mention to evire too whose its scarf set is very painful to deal with for offensive teams and expert belt/Z-Move set which, according to the coverage, doesnt technically have a true counter even in stall.

It was the provocative part so dont take that too seriously... I think however that it's probably the biggest issue with Komala. You can change its set as many times as you want, you can create as many set as it is possible to do for the surprise factor, you will always be strong against the same kind of builds and weak against the others. Since offense is the most popular playstyle currently, i dont think Komala is the most viable mon at the moment.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Xayah]

Alright, let's get into this. Now, Union Caboche, I'll be responding in detail to every point you make, but I obviously don't mean any offense to you. I'm very glad to made this post, because this could provide some fun discussion!

I would like to add, following the 5gen's post, that I think that in most of cases Vigoroth is currently a better Bulk Upper than Komala.

The reason is the trends aren't favorable to Komala BU, notably due to the influence of Shiftry and Combusken. A lot of usuable mons against which Komala was strong falled in usage such as 5gen mentioned, Bronzor or Altaria for example. At the opposite, a lot of common mons are more played at the moment for their ability to check/counter these threats. Once again 5gen quoted Vally-Fighting, I add Monferno and Mareanie as well which is one of the best answer against Combusken.

Okay so to start off, I think Vigoroth vs Komala is very arguable which one is better, and I personally am not sure quite yet which one of them is purely more effective from game to game. However, I do disagree with the reasons you offer. Throughout your post, you state that Komala loses to Silvally-Fighting, Shiftry, Monferno, and for some reason Mareanie her despite Komala's matchup vs Mare being almost entirely favourable (Haze sucks but it def beats Mare 1v1). Regardless, sure, that's true for the BU Knock set and not for Vigoroth because it runs Return. The issue here is that it's not like Komala can't run BU Return. Let's go over MUs with the mons you mentioned for BU Return Komala:

Silvally-Fighting

252 Atk Silvally-Fighting Multi-Attack vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 168-200 (50.2 - 59.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Komala Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Silvally-Fighting: 256-303 (77.3 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Komala needs 2 boosts before Silvally-Fighting is in to win, but it can thanks to Protect stall for Lefties. Tough MU, but winnable. Vigoroth does similarly due to its higher bulk but lower attack stat.

Monferno

252 Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Komala Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 277-327 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, needs two boosts to beat Monferno. Didn't bother posting calcs for Life Orb or Z-Move because they're similar (unless Z-Fight which is questionable imo). Vigo, again, performs similarly.

Mareanie

0 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Komala: 33-40 (9.8 - 11.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 0 Atk Komala Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 160-189 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Okay this MU is weird because if Mare has Haze and still has Evio, it's gonna depend on 50/50s surrounding attacking vs BU and Haze and stuff, but Komala will usually win the end.

Now, sure, usually, Komala runs Knock Off, but this is because of the presence of Gourgeist-XL and Silvally-Ghost right now. If these two fall off and Komala users consider the Fighting-types you mentioned more threatening, it can easily swap to Return. Vigoroth doesn't really have that option, because its move to hit Ghost-types, Shadow Claw, still has an immunity (Normal-types). So while yes, the common BU Komala set is beaten by these mons, it has the option to become pretty damn scary vs them and perform similarly to Vigoroth.

Vigoroth over Komala gets different advantages. A better speed (dont forget the speed is an element of defense, for example to heal itself), a better physical bulk and, a recovery in one turn. Nevertheless, it suffers far more from status even substitute/taunt is able to bypass this kind of flaw. It cannot pass ghost types either so yeah, it's clear that it needs more support. This kind of thing isn't new and during several months until now, Komala was considered better because it is simply more splahsable, it needs less support, it is more surprising as well. It was almost obvious in fact.

Vigoroth's Speed, better phys bulk, and recovery in one turn are all entirely valid points, I don't disagree there. However, let's not ignore what Komala offers to a team: Wish support, Knock Off support if it doesn't decide to run Return, a complete status immunity, a super solid special wall, as well as the ability to hold Leftovers. So while I understand Vigo's advantages, let's not forget to state Komala's too, since they are the reason that make Komala more splashable and needs less support.

However, Komala BU doesnt appreciate the trends. Once the set is guessed, mons which are current now are able to easily get rid of BU Komala. Shiftry and Combusken are simply able to reverse sweep the opponent's team and beneficts in fact a lot of this kind of set. It's something which is very dangerous actually considering how threaten these two mons are. The fun fact is their common checks beneficts as well of Komala, Monferno can set up against, Silvally-Fighting deals with it barely, Mareanie simply pp stalls BU Komala and forces the opponent to switch on this defoger which is a lose of momentum.

So just as before, if you're that terrified of Shiftry and Combusken, it's not hard to run Return. After all, if you're considering Vigoroth, I'm assuming your team is already handling Gourgeist-XL and Silvally-Ghost well, so that shouldn't be a horrifying change to make. Suddenly, your matchups against Shiftry and Combusken look like this:

Shiftry

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 177-211 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Komala Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 313-369 (97.5 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Need 1 boost to win, and it shouldn't be hard to get a single boost because if you're bringing Komala out on Shiftry you're not smart, otherwise you get it on the switch-in.

Combusken

252 SpA Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Komala: 218-260 (65.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Komala Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Combusken: 279-328 (106.8 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, need 1 boost to win and, if it is Fight Z, win the All Out Pummeling vs Protect 50/50. Kinda annoying, but not worse than Vigo.

So again, the things you mention that beat Komala is only because Return isn't really considered as an option here. I showed Monferno and Silv-Fight before, and Mareanie can't status Komala so it's going to get very, very annoyed by continuous Knock Offs/Returns (if Knock Off, it also loses like all of its bulk for the rest of Komala's team).

BU Komala is a set dangerous to use currently but on the other part, all these mons which threats komala struggle far more against its best foe Vigoroth, even without the surprise factor. Sub Vigo with Return/Body Slam doesnt let Shiftry/Combusken coming for free. Shiftry simply loses against Vigoroth if it wants to switch into, Combusken is 2HKO. Monferno loses against Sub as well with the Close Combat drop, Vally-Fighting needs toxic to be able to deal with and takes in general a lot of damages which is crucial for Vally, Mareanie doesnt lose substitute, however it loses against Taunt. Vigoroth is a choice far less risky against the new trends not only because it deals better with these mons but it doesnt let you in a bad situation of reverse sweep.

Yeah I responded to this above, most of these MU differences are just because Return isn't being considered for Komala because it's not been brought to popularity yet.

It is true that Vigoroth requires more support, against ghost, toxic spikes, etc. However, in terms of pure efficacity, it is better against the recent trends than Komala. It is not something which is negligible. Can we rise a mon S Rank at the moment where its best set is partially outclassed by an other Pokémon ? It's not the future metagame, it's the actual one.

Can we rise a mon to S where its best set is partially outclassed? I mean... yea, probably. It's probably receive a lot of discussion, but a massive part of S rank is versatility and splashability, which Komala has in spades. For precedence of this, a while ago LC had Abra S ranked despite neither of its two sets (Sash and LO) being considered S worthy, but the combined threat made it S. So just because BU wouldn't be considered S worthy because it is partially outclassed, which I don't really consider it to be, doesn't mean Komala as a whole couldn't be S rank.

Now about its other sets, nothing has changed in good for Komala to argue in favor of a rise now. The majority of the passive mons (except one or two but it's specific to a playstyle) has fallen in usage. Apart from the surprise factor, why do you play wallbreaker komala when we have moutains of wallbreakers in ZU which are faster or bulkier ? There are reasons such as its ability to be statued or for its pivot move but it's not something which is made it without competition.

I consider this the only point in your whole post that is objectively false. You say nothing has changed in Komala's favor, but since it dropped from S after its brief vacation there, BU rose to prominence massively, which is the reason this discussion exists at all and part of the reason for why all these changes you mention even happened. In addition, Silvally-Ghost dropped, whose special variants get abused completely by every Komala set, while SD sets can break it but have an interesting MU against BU Knock set. Sure, things changed out of Komala's favor as well, but to say nothing changed in its favor is false. As for why to use Band Komala, generally it's because you want a breaker that has an easier time switching in on the bulky mons it aims to threaten. You brush off its status immunity and pivot move, but those two mean that when you're facing a Band Komala, even just sending out your Mareanie or your Bronzor can mean you just sort of lose a mon, and this is something no other wallbreaker can offer. That in addition to the amount of momentum it tends to grab is absolutely a good reason to use it (also element of surprise, of course, but I won't focus on that).

To illustrate that, lets say that even is Komala is very versatile, paradoxally, the team you made with a Choice band Komala is pretty one-dimensionnal. A popular playstyle now, initiated by Rawmelon, consists in playing a bulky wallbreaker with the wish support of Lickilicky (the more classic variant is Wishiwashi-School + Licki but there are others with Abomasnow, Camerupt, Marowak,...). This kind of thing is not possible with a Komala due to the lack of general bulk (Shiftry OHKO with Knock Off without boost). If Komala gains some points thanks to its ability or its movepool, it's not the mon which brings always the freedom.

I don't fully understand what you're trying to say here, but it's something along the lines of 'this is a playstyle that's been getting popular and Komala doesn't fit it'. That's true, yes, Komala isn't a magical mon that fits on every team, although again Komala's bulk on the special side is pretty solid even naturally. To me this is sort of a non point as I am unsure what it attempts to say.

If Mawile doesnt deal with BU Koff Komala, it forces Komala Band to do prediction. Same with Vally Fighting or Monferno (I've even seen teams with Avalugg to deal with Shiftry). We aren't anymore at the age of passive builds where Band Komala had 10 000 opportunities to find a free switch. It's the reason why it is not as played as before. Simply, it requires predictions and is not favorable against common mons now. Mons such as Toucannon Z-Fly isn't as much annoyed as Komala for example. Same with Beheyeem.

Exactly, Choice Band Komala isn't as good as it used to be, although the slow lowering in Geist usage does mean it may become more viable again. But it's not like Komala just said 'ah damn, I can't be used anymore'. Nah, instead, its BU set rose to prominence, as we've been discussing, which has wildly different checks and makes it incredibly annoying. Also, I am not sure while you mentioned Silvally-Fighting and Monferno as Band Mala checks, because Fightvally takes 75% from Band Return and Monferno just dies. Sure they outspeed but that's like saying Swanna's existence makes SD Pinsir bad.

To end this post which starts to be too long and on a slightly more provocative note, we often say that Komala is very verstatile and surprising and it is what which makes it so strong. The problem with this sentence isn't only that guess the set isn't something impossible, it is also that Komala isn't as versatile as we say. We could argue that it is in fact one-dimensional. Komala has a BU set which is strong against bulky builds, a CB set which is good against bulky builds and a wishtect set which is correct against bulky builds, and a SD set... which is outclased by Shiftry. The versatility of Komala is limited by its way to choose its set to threat always exactly the same kind of builds.

I'm sorry but I find this portion very hard to respond to because... what? Since when is Komala only good against bulky builds? AV and WishTect + U-turn sets are hilariously good at taking momentum away from offense because of how easily it gets kills against those teams regardless of set, BU can definitely demolish balance as well, and Band will grab a kill if it gets in regardless of what team you're facing. And even if it were only good against bulky teams, the fact that you have no idea what set you're facing and what counterplay you're supposed to employ on team preview means that its mere existence already takes momentum away from offense. I'm... very confused here. Sure, Komala excels against bulky teams, but it's definitely good in other MUs as well. Saying Komala isn't versatile... is honestly a new one.

It is not completly true because on paper it exists some other sets not as seen which are barely strong against more offensive teams such as SD, Sucker Punch Band or Scarf. However, SD is 90% of the time outclassed by Shiftry and has few reasons to be played, Sucker Punch Band isn't advised at all when Mawile is so present and Scarf Mala doesnt threat offense as much as a classic electivire does.

Take now a mon such as Pinsir. Z-Me First destroys offenses, Mold Breaker SD 6-0 stalls. That, it is the true versatility. I could talk about Shiftry as well but i have quoted its name too many times in this post to be reasonable. Big mention to evire too whose its scarf set is very painful to deal with for offensive teams and expert belt/Z-Move set which, according to the coverage, doesnt technically have a true counter even in stall.

It was the provocative part so dont take that too seriously... I think however that it's probably the biggest issue with Komala. You can change its set as many times as you want, you can create as many set as it is possible to do for the surprise factor, you will always be strong against the same kind of builds and weak against the others. Since offense is the most popular playstyle currently, i dont think Komala is the most viable mon at the moment.

Thank you for reading.

This is a continuation of what was going on before so I don't think I have much to say, other than saying that just because Pinsir has two sets with different great matchups that doesn't make it versatile, that makes it matchup reliant. Komala is not deadweight against offense as you're making it sound, and if you've been finding it that way, then sorry to say it but you've been using it wrong. I don't know why SD was brought up because SD was primarily meant as a stall destroying set, which it does very well by the way, and has the worst offense MU out of all its sets.

Overall, I think a large portion of our disagreement is that I am open to different option. Vigoroth absolutely has advantages over Komala: speed, phys bulk, Slack Off, space for Taunt/Sub, etc, but I don't think those add up against the team support Komala offers, which by the way it can still do in the offense MU, even if it probably won't set up and sweep, where Vigoroth does nothing. Otherwise some things confuse me but I'm glad we can have this discussion :D.

 

[Apagogie]

Thank you for your answer, I appreciate that. You did very good points, I'll just make some precisions about my post to be fully understandable :

The reason to play Komala Return is pretty dark outside of checking better the mons I've listed above. What I mean it's you are now countered by approximately the same mons that Vigoroth (ghost types obviously). However, Vigoroth still has a better speed, a better recovery and a far better physical defensive stat which makes the reason to play Komala Return, outside of the surprise factor, kinda weird to understand. I'll just show one calc (and others under spoilers) :

252 Atk Choice Band Komala Return vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Komala Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 137-162 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Komala Return vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 123-145 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Komala Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 79-93 (21.7 - 25.5%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO

Notice how Vigoroth takes approximately 2x less damages from a Komala band tan a classic Komala BU. It's not negligible. Obviously, you are faster too which means you can after start to set up more easily with BU. Notice also that Knock Off doesnt even break the sub.

This case isn't the only one. Against plenty of strong wallbreakers, Komala BU if the opponent does the right prediction simply loses against them. Vigoroth can at the opposite win these match up in whatever situation. You can argue that it is a risky play to switch these mons in front of a Mala but in reality, not really. First of all, the SR betrayed the Komala set, then, if you've a team which is weak against BU Mala but you are able to relatively deal with the band variant, you'll always try to get rid of the scarying set. It's a bet but a bet in your favor. Of course, you can always do the right prediction and win the 50/50 but you know yourself that it doesnt happen everytime. The wallbreakers could heal themself too or restore their life in popular playstyles with wish of Lickilicky.

Relicanth

252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Head Smash vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 297-349 (88.9 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Head Smash vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vigo is faster and has the opportunity to set up 2 bulk up. It pp stalls Relicanth. Komala is destroyed

Abomasnow

252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Komala: 189-223 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Komala: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 196-232 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 286-338 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Bouffalant Band

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 244-288 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 139-165 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Toucannon

252+ Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 304-358 (91 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Komala: 228-268 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toucannon Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 129-153 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Wishiwashi-School

252+ SpA Choice Specs Wishiwashi-School Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Komala: 253-298 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wishiwashi-School Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 262-310 (71.9 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Without haxx, they both lose rip.

Beeheyem

252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Komala: 322-379 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Komala: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 334-394 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 172-204 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

I guess Komala is better here because it can Protect ? It's a 50/50 though and a lot of Rolls. Ofc, if it's Psyshock Beheyeem, Vigoroth is better

Golem-A

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem-Alola Stone Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Komala: 181-214 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Golem-Alola Stone Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 102-121 (28 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

I've forgotten some such as Rampardos, etc but you've understood my point. These mons are on every team, otherwise the build is pretty bad because they cannot bypass stall.

In some of your calcs, you didnt do the comparaison with Vigoroth. You should have done that because Vigoroth and Komala dont perform similarly, Vigoroth handles far better the hits (at +1, less that 50% of Close Combat of Monferno... Jolly Monferno because Adamant, you outspeed so it's still less).

Vigoroth loses against some mons that Komala Return BU doesnt, such as Bronzor, Mawile toxic and Vally-Fighting but to be honnest, Komala isn't safe against them either. I've seen Komala loses against Bronzor simply because it had two high rolls, Mawile Taunt is a good set (against stall, regigigas,...) against whose Komala Return loses as well and obviously, Vally-Fighting is an issue for Komala... Maybe more than for Vigoroth.

If you play Komala Return BU, in fact, you lose one of the advantage Mala has over Vigoroth which is the support (with notably Knock Off.) Apart from some specific playstyle, wish isn't something you're looking for when you build a team. It's even a drain of momentum in our offensive meta.
I told you few days ago that I played Komala BU only for the support it provides and it's what I think in reading your answer. Komala BU with Return has a weaker match up against the rest of the meta than Vigoroth. It's simply the reason why it isn't played and why Knock Off will stay a better choice.

I will now answer to some of your other points :

Throughout your post, you state that Komala loses to Silvally-Fighting, Shiftry, Monferno, and for some reason Mareanie her despite Komala's matchup vs Mare being almost entirely favourable (Haze sucks but it def beats Mare 1v1).

No, no, no. Knock Off Mala doesnt beat Mareanie :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-860724073+ I wasted uselessly some recover at the beginning for no reason + I didnt use Regenerator. I dont have tested against Return yet but Mareanie always beat Komala BU Knock Off which is the main Komala set.

I consider this the only point in your whole post that is objectively false. You say nothing has changed in Komala's favor, but since it dropped from S after its brief vacation there, BU rose to prominence massively, which is the reason this discussion exists at all and part of the reason for why all these changes you mention even happened. In addition, Silvally-Ghost dropped, whose special variants get abused completely by every Komala set, while SD sets can break it but have an interesting MU against BU Knock set. Sure, things changed out of Komala's favor as well, but to say nothing changed in its favor is false. As for why to use Band Komala, generally it's because you want a breaker that has an easier time switching in on the bulky mons it aims to threaten. You brush off its status immunity and pivot move, but those two mean that when you're facing a Band Komala, even just sending out your Mareanie or your Bronzor can mean you just sort of lose a mon, and this is something no other wallbreaker can offer. That in addition to the amount of momentum it tends to grab is absolutely a good reason to use it (also element of surprise, of course, but I won't focus on that).

In fact, if you read carefully my post (notably the first sentence), you will realize I dont talk about the BU set but the other sets of Komala. For these sets, nothing has changed since Komala has dropped A+. BU has become better but Band, AV, and wishtect are just not as good as before.
Also :
- Komala abuses every Vally-Ghost set except Return BU if it's a set.
- A lot of wallbreakers, especially special, switch quite easy on mons they threaten tbh (Beheyeem, Specs Abomasnow, Wishiwashi,...)
- Marezor is often played with a Silvally-Fighint (especially now with Shiftry so common). That's why you will be rarely at +2 with BU Mala
- A lot of wallbreakers actually can surprise their target. Abomasnow, Granbull, Camerupt, Golem Band, etc.

I'm sorry but I find this portion very hard to respond to because... what? Since when is Komala only good against bulky builds? AV and WishTect + U-turn sets are hilariously good at taking momentum away from offense because of how easily it gets kills against those teams regardless of set, BU can definitely demolish balance as well, and Band will grab a kill if it gets in regardless of what team you're facing. And even if it were only good against bulky teams, the fact that you have no idea what set you're facing and what counterplay you're supposed to employ on team preview means that its mere existence already takes momentum away from offense. I'm... very confused here. Sure, Komala excels against bulky teams, but it's definitely good in other MUs as well. Saying Komala isn't versatile... is honestly a new one.

First of all, this part should have been taken not too seriously as I said. Then :
- AV and Wishtect aren't good at all against offensive teams. I dont know why you think that. After SR, AV can be OHKO by numerous physical threats such as Shiftry, the Z of Floatzel/Swanna, Rapidash with little chip, Z-Me First Pinsir, etc. Wishtect does absolutely nothing.
- BU can demolish balance if the opponent has a team 6-0 by stall and no fighting type but well... It's not something adviced
- Band grab a kill if it isn't OHKO before which is an issue. Also, Return / earthquake / Knock Off has generally at least a switch in, even in offense.
- It was just a point to ironize about the versatility of Komala. Yes it's unpredictable (not always, it depends of the team, when the SR aren't on the board) and versatile but it is always strong against the same kind of builds. You might qualify my affirmation but not tell the opposite because it's simply false.

This is a continuation of what was going on before so I don't think I have much to say, other than saying that just because Pinsir has two sets with different great matchups that doesn't make it versatile, that makes it matchup reliant. Komala is not deadweight against offense as you're making it sound, and if you've been finding it that way, then sorry to say it but you've been using it wrong. I don't know why SD was brought up because SD was primarily meant as a stall destroying set, which it does very well by the way, and has the worst offense MU out of all its sets.

- Dont say SD Mold Breaker Pinsir is match up reliant when you say Band Komala has a decent one against offense plz. Pinsir can at least kill something with its Z-move (if earthquake/stone Edge, it even prevents golem/crustle to set up hazards which is really big against offense), Z-Bug is fine too. At the opposite, Komala doesnt do anything because it's OHKO by everything after very little chip. Z-Me First is strong against all playstyles bar stall.
- SD is the only set where I've seen Sucker Punch played. It's maybe not meta but bar this weird set, Mala does nothing against offense.


I stop the discussion here for me about Komala. I'm open if you have more questions about my point of view on discord or on the room.

 

[Sieeeffmon]

I want to make claim that Electivire is currently the best mon in the tier and maybe even deserves S Rank.

It's a popular opinion that Evire is the best scarfer in tier, and its is so good that really holds the whole tier hostage.

On every offense build you basically need to prep twice for it. At first you need to make sure, that it does need to predict right every time to do significant damage or get a kill, since even the scarf version is very difficult to switch in on offfense builds. Secondly you need need a way to force it out safly, which is easier said than done since the only faster common scarfer is Rapidash which is not too good as as a scarfer imo. Otherwise you need to use something that can kill Evire but maight take massive damge in the process.

The poularity of the scarfer also makes expert belt and and Z moves much better. So if you run an uncommon scarfer like Dugtrio (which is imo actually underrated as a scarfer because of the speed tier and Memento) or Shiftry you can easily bluff the scarf for some turns and when the opponent thinks he is save, you strike. Also the expert belt set is probably the best breaker in tier just because of the good speed tier. Yes sometimes you might lack the right move but until the opp knows it's often too late.

Sure it doesn't take physical moves is chipped quite easily but with the specially based set without wildcharge and without LO it's really not that bad. I think those downsides are really made up by amount of a threat it can be to basically every build type.

 

[Kiyo]

I like to shit on Electivire and call it a bad pokemon, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't deserve its A+ rank. That being said I don't think its as good as you make it out to be.

The way most teams prepare for Electivire is actually pretty indirect from my own experience. You're essentially preparing for attacks from common types, mainly Electric and Ground, that you shouldn't be weak to with solid teams in the first place. Electivire's bread and butter moves are Earthquake and Volt Switch, without either of them I honestly couldn't see it thrive as a scarfer. Earthquake is the reason Electivire thrives vs offense and Volt Switch gives it outs vs fatter builds. It doesn't always (i'd even go as far to say its been uncommon lately) run its most powerful move, Wild Charge, and is largely checked by more pokemon when it does. I haven't seen anyone make use of special scarf (likely due to the plethora of specially bulky pokemon the tier has to offer) so I am going to ignore it for the time being.

I tend to think Electivire gives up too much momentum when its forced to click a coverage move such as Ice Punch, Flamethrower, or Cross Chop (which is pretty rare in my experience but it should probably see more use because Licki/Komala are pretty free middle ground switches otherwise) often times the opponent has several middle ground switch-ins that take very little from a coverage move. Some examples from the last 3-4 teams I've built being Golem, Gourgeist, Tangela, Silvally, Shiinotic, Komala, and Marowak (and theres a hell of a lot more pokemon that do it better if you don't mind being boring with your teams). While not all of these Pokemon avoid a 2HKO from any given coverage move (largely in part because I run these bulkier pokemon with more offensive sets such as CB Gourge, Specs Shiin, WP Golem, etc.) they do sap Electivire's momentum by giving you the opportunity to react to its move choice accordingly, provided it doesn't volt switch for free against your team. Electivire does not OHKO anything unless its attack is 4x supereffective, so you always have multiple chances to check it (this might be hyperbole but it gets the point across).

Electivire's best matchup is clearly versus offense, but I think that's simply the nature of offense to a degree, you are going to have bad matchups vs choice scarfers that are difficult to ohko and run pivoting moves. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Rapidash is a viable scarfer, but I suppose I haven't tried it so I won't say its unviable. There are a lot of good scarfers that tie with Electivire or outpace it, but I think most players have largely been uncreative for awhile when choosing potential scarfers. I've made good use of mons like Swanna , Frogadier, and Mr. Mime and I've seen people try things like Simisear, Simipour, Simisage, Leafeon and Sawsbuck. Those are only the scarfers that tie or outrun Electivire. And I don't think Electivire is so pressing an issue that you cannot effectively run slower scarfers with favorable matchup vs its moveset and/or enough bulk to take a hit. I haven't experimented too much in this regard so I won't expand as much on this point, but I have seen Scarf Pinsir usage rising and that definitely fits the bill.

I think the expert belt set is probably better vs the average zu team at this point in time, but it by no means sweeps thru the bulkier mons in this meta singlehandedly (its just not that strong). It's probably too early to talk much about non Choice Scarf sets, from what I've seen at least, but if theres an argument for Electivire being S rank I'd bet it lies there.

 

[kay]

Vigoroth over Komala gets different advantages. A better speed (dont forget the speed is an element of defense, for example to heal itself), a better physical bulk and, a recovery in one turn. Nevertheless, it suffers far more from status even substitute/taunt is able to bypass this kind of flaw. It cannot pass ghost types either so yeah, it's clear that it needs more support. This kind of thing isn't new and during several months until now, Komala was considered better because it is simply more splahsable, it needs less support, it is more surprising as well. It was almost obvious in fact.

Okay so after reading this posts I can't help but see an underlined issue with that you said in that Vig loses to ghosts which simply isn't the case. When you run Taunt you're able to PP stall all the ghosts from Gourgeist to SD/special Vally Ghost. This means the bulk of Xayah's post about how Vig can't run shadow claw and just has to accept you lose to ghosts when Komala doesn't have that issue isn't true either as Vig doesn't need to run anything BUT return to be effective. You just sit pretty, boost up, and pp stall all the ghosts not named Misdreavus.

Now, sure, usually, Komala runs Knock Off, but this is because of the presence of Gourgeist-XL and Silvally-Ghost right now. If these two fall off and Komala users consider the Fighting-types you mentioned more threatening, it can easily swap to Return. Vigoroth doesn't really have that option, because its move to hit Ghost-types, Shadow Claw, still has an immunity (Normal-types). So while yes, the common BU Komala set is beaten by these mons, it has the option to become pretty damn scary vs them and perform similarly to Vigoroth.

This has lead to this rabbit whole of 'return Komala is a good set even tho it gets walled by ghosts like Vig, but unlike Vig we're just running knock off to beat the things it can't' when in reality Vig doesn't ever need to not run normal stab. It literally does what knock off Komala does with beating ghosts but its able to use its STAB. This entire misconception has basically ruined the above 3 posts on the topic to the point where I don't think anything in them is really relevant to what the mons actually offer/do.


The entire debate basically boils down to "how much do you value the support of BU Komala vs the more effective and less abusable win condition of Vigoroth".

The fact of the matter is Vig is faster which lets it set up on more things/ kill things without taking damage, it's walled by less, has one turn recovery, and doesn't let in some of the scariest mons in the tier like Shiftry and Combusken for free.
I don't think the whole 'surprise factor' element of Komala is that strong. If you see leftovers then you know the set isn't CB which defeats the whole it could be choiced angle. If you switch into rocks or have to take a hit with it then you'll know what the sets are.
The only reasons I'd really consider BU Komala on a team over Vig is if you NEED the higher special bulk or you just heavily value not losing to tspikes/ being able to switch directly into Toxic.

Also BU Return Komala isn't a set that works in practice because you bank your entire mon on getting a correct match up where they don't have a ghost type. Its not worth the risk to run and the pros of running it doesn't outweigh the pros of just running Vig who just does it better without losing to the ghosts you're banking on match up to not face in the first place.

(edit: fixed some wording in here. tldr its support mon that can set up vs hard win condition)

 

[Xayah]

Okay so after reading this posts I can't help but see an underlined issue with that you said in that Vig loses to ghosts which simply isn't the case. When you run Taunt you're able to PP stall all the ghosts from Gourgeist to SD/special Vally Ghost. This means the bulk of Xayah's post about how Vig can't run shadow claw and just has to accept you lose to ghosts when Komala doesn't have that issue isn't true either as Vig doesn't need to run anything BUT return to be effective. You just sit pretty, boost up, and pp stall all the ghosts not named Misdreavus.



This has lead to this rabbit whole of 'return Komala is a good set even tho it gets walled by ghosts like Vig, but unlike Vig we're just running knock off to beat the things it can't' when in reality Vig doesn't ever need to not run normal stab. It literally does what knock off Komala does with beating ghosts but its able to use its STAB. This entire misconception has basically ruined the above 3 posts on the topic to the point where I don't think anything in them is really relevant to what the mons actually offer/do.


The entire debate basically boils down to "how much do you value the support of BU Komala vs the more effective and less abusable win condition of Vigoroth".

The fact of the matter is Vig is faster which lets it set up on more things/ kill things without taking damage, it's walled by less, has one turn recovery, and doesn't let in some of the scariest mons in the tier like Shiftry and Combusken for free.
I don't think the whole 'surprise factor' element of Komala is that strong. If you see leftovers then you know the set isn't CB which defeats the whole it could be choiced angle. If you switch into rocks or have to take a hit with it then you'll know what the sets are.
The only reasons I'd really consider BU Komala on a team over Vig is if you NEED the higher special bulk or you just heavily value not losing to tspikes/ being able to switch directly into Toxic.

Also BU Return Komala isn't a set that works in practice because you bank your entire mon on getting a correct match up where they don't have a ghost type. Its not worth the risk to run and the pros of running it doesn't outweigh the pros of just running Vig who just does it better without losing to the ghosts you're banking on match up to not face in the first place.

(edit: fixed some wording in here. tldr its support mon that can set up vs hard win condition)

This is something we talked about last night and this'll be just a short post, but I feel like this is a misconception about what BU Komala actually is/does. In every post so far (including my own, my bad for not pointing towards this earlier), it has just been looked at as a wincon and that it's outclassed in that manner by Vigoroth, which is almost certainly true and I never meant to argue against that.

No, BU Komala is a support Pokemon first and foremost, just one that your opponent is forced to respect as a wincon throughout the whole game as well. Between Wish support, Knock Off, a status immunity, and it's great special bulk, Komala offers a ton to a team and Bulk Up is just another one of those things. For example, my best team with BU Komala is the sample team listed here (second team from above). Reading through the description there now, I didn't express it correctly either, but I digress. Basically, Silvally-Ghost + Combusken is a double breaker core where both of them can potentially win (though Combusken more easily than Ghostvally) if their checks are worn down or KOed. I add Komala to this because both of them really like its Wish support and Knock support onto things like Mareanie and its status immunity etc. These are things Vigo could not have offered me. I then decided to make it BU because as it happens, Combusken really threatens Shiftry and Silvally-Ghost threatens Combusken to an extent, and the Mareanie that was added later does so even better. It just fit.

This is how BU Komala should be used in general. You add it to the team because you want the support of Knock WishTect, and you can use BU in the fourth slot if you think you have what it takes to support it winning or you just want to put more pressure onto the opponent. To showcase what I mean more, here's a team where I added Knock WishTect Komala, but ended up deciding BU just didn't really fit so I went with U-turn instead. Note: this team has a host of other problems that I don't feel like delving into, but you get the idea of building with Komala not as a wincon

Team

Raichu @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
- Focus Blast

Mareanie @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb
- Recover
- Haze

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Rest

Silvally-Fighting @ Fighting Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Shadow Claw
- U-turn
- Defog

Komala @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Wish
- Protect

All in all, if we wanna keep this Komala vs Vigo convo going, we need to make it clear: yes, Vigo is a better wincon, but Komala is basically just a support mon that runs Bulk Up to force the opponent to respect it as a wincon. That's what makes it so scary and makes it fit on wildly different teams than Vigo.

Lastly, I wanna say this isn't just me saying 'yea well you don't know it's Bulk Up'. No, it's me saying it has to be respected throughout the whole game because you know it's Bulk Up. You can say 'yeah well I just switch in Shiftry or Combusken', but neither of those have recovery and both of them can hold Life Orb to get worn down even faster. And yet, if you don't go into Shiftry immediately, it beating a +2 Komala is suddenly a lot more shaky. Anyway, I hope I got my point across.

 

[kay]

Yeah I think Xayah pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. Komala is a cleric with the option to run BU which gives it a niche compared to Vig, but overall Vig comes out as the more effective BU mon if you're looking for a win condition which is why, going back to 5gen's post, I don't think Komala should rise to S based on this new set as its basically just another slash option for the wish sets.


Moving on from Komala though, there's been a topic that I've been discussing with ZU chat and other ZU players about the possibility of a Throh retest. From what I'm told Throh was one of the first bans we've ever had in ZU due to the lack of available fighting resist and ways to deal with it.
But looking at the metagame we have its a totally different landscape. We have offensive flying types like Swanna and Rotom-s, we have psychics like Beheeyem, Kadabra, and Mr. Mime, and we have plenty of defensive fighting resists ranging from Gourgeist to Granbull.

For the remainder of this post I'm going to be referring to it with the expectations that rest talk with circle throw and knock off will be its main set as well as a guts wall breaker set sprinkled in as those have in practice been the most consistent sets for it. Sure it might have sets like Taunt rest talk that it can run to just 6-0 stall or something like BU 2 attacks rest that in theory might work, but after playing with it I found these sets basically banked on very specific match ups and were only effective on paper and wouldn't see wide spread play.

After playing in and wining a Throh unban tour as well as playing with it being legal with some of my friends I'm convinced this mon is no long problematic and doesn't need its stay on the ZUBL anymore thanks to the plentiful answers we have for it now. It no longer just walls out literally everything in the tier, no longer has any offensive/defensive switch ins, and it can't get away with some of the more niche sets like no sleep talk thanks to the plenty of strong breaker we have now which would force it in to more streamline sets.

The biggest complaint I've heard when talking with people is just how annoying it would be rather then how broken/ too strong it would be. And while I agree its probably not the most fun/interactive thing to play against, I don't think the case of it being broken is strong enough to at least warrant not looking at potential a retest. The goal should be to have as little things banned/ as many playable mons in the tier as possible, and if its no longer broken then I think it should be reintroduced into the tier based on principle.

So yeah I'd really like to hear what you guys think on this potential resuspect. Do you guys think it's just as broken as before or do you think it's manageable enough to warrant a retest to see how it actually plays in practice?

 

[Xayah]

Yeah I think Xayah pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. Komala is a cleric with the option to run BU which gives it a niche compared to Vig, but overall Vig comes out as the more effective BU mon if you're looking for a win condition which is why, going back to 5gen's post, I don't think Komala should rise to S based on this new set as its basically just another slash option for the wish sets.


Moving on from Komala though, there's been a topic that I've been discussing with ZU chat and other ZU players about the possibility of a Throh retest. From what I'm told Throh was one of the first bans we've ever had in ZU due to the lack of available fighting resist and ways to deal with it.
But looking at the metagame we have its a totally different landscape. We have offensive flying types like Swanna and Rotom-s, we have psychics like Beheeyem, Kadabra, and Mr. Mime, and we have plenty of defensive fighting resists ranging from Gourgeist to Granbull.

For the remainder of this post I'm going to be referring to it with the expectations that rest talk with circle throw and knock off will be its main set as well as a guts wall breaker set sprinkled in as those have in practice been the most consistent sets for it. Sure it might have sets like Taunt rest talk that it can run to just 6-0 stall or something like BU 2 attacks rest that in theory might work, but after playing with it I found these sets basically banked on very specific match ups and were only effective on paper and wouldn't see wide spread play.

After playing in and wining a Throh unban tour as well as playing with it being legal with some of my friends I'm convinced this mon is no long problematic and doesn't need its stay on the ZUBL anymore thanks to the plentiful answers we have for it now. It no longer just walls out literally everything in the tier, no longer has any offensive/defensive switch ins, and it can't get away with some of the more niche sets like no sleep talk thanks to the plenty of strong breaker we have now which would force it in to more streamline sets.

The biggest complaint I've heard when talking with people is just how annoying it would be rather then how broken/ too strong it would be. And while I agree its probably not the most fun/interactive thing to play against, I don't think the case of it being broken is strong enough to at least warrant not looking at potential a retest. The goal should be to have as little things banned/ as many playable mons in the tier as possible, and if its no longer broken then I think it should be reintroduced into the tier based on principle.

So yeah I'd really like to hear what you guys think on this potential resuspect. Do you guys think it's just as broken as before or do you think it's manageable enough to warrant a retest to see how it actually plays in practice?

Before I begin, I want to note that I'm speaking out of my own opinion and not representing the opinions of my co-TL or the council in any way.

We've been talking about this extensively on discord and PS and I am not at all convinced that Throh isn't still the stupid broken monster that I voted ban on after USM's release. Most concerning to me is the fact that you ignored its best set in this post and admitted to never having seen it in action nor knowing about its strength. I don't know what the opinions of other council members are, but I know I voted ban because of BU RestTalk Circle Throw:

Set

Throh (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker / Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Circle Throw
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Now, luckily, we've talked a ton about this set, so I trust that you know what this does by now. Note that I slashed Mold Breaker first despite Guts maybe being more standard because I think beating the only defensive counterplay this set has, Spite Pyukumuku, is worth more than absorbing burns, but both are entirely viable. Because yes, this set does not have defensive counterplay, as it is effectively BU Vigoroth/Komala on steroids.

In your post, you mention Gourgeist-XL and Granbull as defensive checks, and you've mentioned Mawile to me as well. Now, the problem with this is that Gourgeist-XL can't even remotely touch it with anything, as it simply Rests off the burns and Foul Play does basically nothing. Because of Rest, Gourgeist-XL simply gets PP stalled. As for Granbull, defensive outright loses if it switches in, assuming Throh plays it right, as it can't 2HKO if Throh is at +1 and can't 3HKO if it's at +2. So BU on switch in, another BU on Play Rough, and Rest on the third means you then win. I also run 4 Spe EVs so that you outspeed uninvested Granbull to Rest before it. Either way, you still win because Leftovers gives you enough health back to live the third Play Rough. As for Mawile, defensive straight up loses. Can't say much else about it. Taunt is slightly annoying but it's not gonna win on its own because of Circle Throw.

No, the way to beat Throh is, clearly, offensive counterplay. And fine, out of the current meta mons, Swanna, Kadabra, and Mr. Mime beat it reliably offensively, and you've mentioned in our conversations Beheeyem, SD Mawile, Choice Band Granbull, and Trick/Switcheroo users like Rotom-S and Floatzel. Every single one of these is valid, as they do deal with it. I don't disagree with it. The problem is that this is still a very limited list. Let's start at the end. Trick users are heavily unreliable, as they can only go for it once and if they fail you're then in trouble, and Rotom-S needs a Z-Move to reliably break it, which then means it can't Trick. Choice Band Granbull and SD Mawile are not exactly common whatsoever right now because other breakers outclass it, and Beheeyem is honestly not that dissimilar from them. Mr. Mime is largely outclassed by Kadabra right now.

So that leaves us with Kadabra and Swanna as solid, reliable, and meta checks to Throh. And both of them are fine, although you do need special Swanna because physical loses after one of two boosts. So, obviously, I'd pair Throh with Bronzor, which means that I know have the greatest check to Swanna and Sash Kadabra. LO Kadabra is left to beat that core, which gets 3HKOed by +0 Circle Throw.

In other words, while Throh does have checks, all of them are either not exactly great in the current meta or get directly answered by Throh's best partner. This will cause a very, very real centralization that I'd really rather not see and I don't think it contributes to a healthy meta anyway.

Especially if we consider that as far as checks to this mon go, we gained Swanna and Granbull (and Floatzel if you count that) while losing Clefairy, Trick Rotom-F, and Switcheroo Manectric, I really don't think it's suddenly not busted. I'll have to be shown more reasoning than I've seen right now to be in favor of a Throh retest.

 

[Mintly]

So, this probably wont be the longest of posts, but I'm currently pro-unbanning Throh.

From what I've tested in Throh-allowed games, it seemed that Throh either didn't provide too much, died on a switch in, or wasn't used. I can see the meta adapting to having Throh back in, but I don't think Throh would be overcentralizing. We definitely have some Pokemon that Throh either dies due to PP stall by not being able to hit, like Silvally-Ghost, Dusclops, and (Possibly) Gourgeist, but we also have a solid array of special Flying and Psychic types that can hit Throh. Throh does deal with Pokemon such as Komala and, if you're lucky, a Flying type if they come in on Storm Throw or are Thrown into rocks.

 

[Sieeeffmon]

When I read about a probable retest for Throh I was very excited, because I was missing a usable Fighting type aside from silv for a while. I think is really has a place in the tier and I hope it's not too broken.

I think fighting is a great offensive typing right now. There is a reason people run Silv fight so much. Komala, Vig, Lickylicky, Bouf and even Regigigas are just really nice to have a natural check against. In fact I mostly see it on offense just wallbreak. I think either BU 3 Attacks or Rest talk BU will prevail on offensive teams, essantially taking the place of Vigroth but with utility.

Otherwise I can see stall making comeback with Throh. Prbably using a Max Def Rest Talk circle throw Knock Set. I know what you think Throh kills stall in the current meta but I think stall can adapt and throh keeps all Mold breaker SD mons currently destroying stall, with circle throw, in check. Not even mentioning the always annoying komala. A suspect test could really test if Throh kills or saves stall.

After all I would really appriciate a retest, just to see how throh is going to do.

 

[Apagogie]

The idea of suspecting throh looks at first pretty interesting. I'm not convinced that Throh is at the moment unbannable but I support a suspect test to see how it would influence the ZU.

Let's start with the beginning, the meta is currently very stable, maybe the most stable meta we have ever had. If we wish to retest some ZUBL mons, it's the best moment to try that. An other opportunity with the same conditions is unlikely to happen this generation.
An other good thing to keep in mind is at what point some bans are quite old in a meta very different than the current one. When Throh was banned, Mudsdale was in ZU, we were about 10 people who played ZU, it wasn't an OM yet and the room didn't exist. Take a look about some of these mons in a more recent meta seems pretty healthy for the tier.

The case of thorh is pretty special in itself because, contrary to the others, it could even improve the metagame. It's not only a mon that you suspect only for the sake of unbanning no-broken mons (which would be already justifiable to be honnest because a no-broken mon doesnt have to be banned), it's a mon which could bring new elements in ZU.

Pinsir Z-Me First, Vigoroth, Combusken, Komala, electivire, Shiftry in a lesser extend or even screens have been criticized for the relative strength in the meta. None of them is so dangerous to the point of suspecting a mon but we would be glad to have an other good splashable answer to them. It's especially true if we take a look at the meta, balances, without being unplayable, have trouble to effectively cover all threats without being too passive to break common cores. We are in a situation where either offensive builds or semi-stall/stall are the most optimal things to play. It's not a bad thing (and I enjoy playing the meta a lot) but we would like to have sometimes a glue to make balances great again.

I think that it's partially why Komala is effective today, it brings to a team knock support, a toxic switch-in, wish support and a wincondition. Unfortunately, Komala isn't the necessary bulk to deal with a lot of threats we have currently in ZU. The phaser ability of Throh is also interesting, not only against screens, but also against stall. Prevent the wishpass thanks to circle throw brings to balances a new weapon to dont be too disadvantaged in front of bulky builds.

Throh isn't either an obviously broken mon such as Type:null, Musharna or Jynx. It's maybe too much difficult to deal with but it has common answers : Mareanie, Flying types, Granbull, Psychic types, Mime, etc . I dont think it invalides a special playstyle either. Screens could use Substitute to prevent to be phased, stalls have still some ghosts (and Mareanie), offenses still threat it a lot (throh hates Knock Off and doesnt deal that well with strong offense mons such as Shiftry where seed bomb at +2 has a max roll at 93%). I dont think it would be as obviously broken as I could have read.

Nevertheless, some interrogations remain :

Wouldn't Throh overcentralize the meta ?
That's a good question and a very difficult one to answer. Throh has currently the possibility to deal at least with about 20 mons on 30 in the A- to A+ Rank. If Throh isn't broken in itself, it could have on the other hand the monopoly on the meta. Why dont play Throh when you answer to the majority of mons in only playing it ? If the mons are determined good or bad according to how they are effective against throh, that would be an unhealthy mechanic. We are relatively free to play whatever mon high ranked at the moment without changing much the structure of the team. We can wonder if that would stay the same if the most important mon is able to counter the majority of the threatlist. If every team needs to reflect how they are good against throh to be considered as viable (especially offenses), that's a huge issue. I would rather keep the meta stable how it is than open the Pandora's box and turn the ZU tier into the Throh tier. In my opinion, the overcentralization is the main question about a hypothetical throh suspect.

Wouldn't Throh be too strong ?
When we take a look about the meta where Throh was allowed, it was pretty different than the current one but we could say that there were more throh answers. Musharna, Clefairy, Palossand were for example ZU. We have trouble to imagine why suddenly Throh would become healthier now. However, we can say that we dont have the same experience when we're 10 than with our current community. When we look at the old VR, we see that some mons which would be good throh answers weren't even not ranked at all such as Mareanie. With a lack of playerbase, the meta was maybe not enough developped to be able to be adapted to Throh. However, maybe the meta was adapted and in this case, there is no reason to think that throh is more healthy now than in the past.

Spikes ?
Despite the fact that we have a lot of ways to remove hazards, spikes/tspikes teams are already good now. Trade screens against spikes isn't very fair. It's probably a detail but it's a detail which annoys me a lot. So much teams are already weak to this archetype that add a mon which boosts that isn't something I want to see. Prevent a playstyle to be too strong to make an other one broken isn't a good solution.

To sumarize my thoughts, I'm currently quite openminded for a suspect test of Throh. At the moment, if the suspect happened now, I think I would vote ban but my mind may change if I see more throh in action.

 

[BloodAce]

I'd like to give my initial opinions on the prospect of resuspect testing Throh.​

My initial impression of Throh is that it is not nearly as broken as other ZUBL mons such as Musharna. The ZU metagame has changed heavily and new measures of counterplay to Throh exist in this metagame both offensively and defensively that simply did not exist (or had not been discovered) in the past such as Swanna, Granbull, and Haze Mareanie. More hazard control options than ever before (Swanna, Altaria, Silvally-Ghost, etc) also help to prevent hazard stack teams that pair well with Throh's phazing support from being as overpowering as it once was.

Other forms of counterplay such as Beheeyem, Mr. Mime, Toucannon, and Oricorio exist, just to name a few. Choice Specs Beeheeyem and Mr. Mime with Trick enable these pokemon to both break through Throh with ease but also enable them to cripple switch-ins such as Bronzor who would be sure to become one of Throh's most prolific partners as Xayah had mentioned. Life Orb Toucannon can OHKO Throh even at +1 with Brave Bird while Oricorio is able to break through Throh with Z-Hurricane and/or cripple it with Taunt.

Throh could potentially be a posititive addition to ZU, providing the metagame with a defensive Fighting-type and function as a check to some of the most threatening pokemon in ZU such as Z-Me First Pinsir and Mixed LO Shiftry.

There is a argument that Throh may seem balanced in the vacuum of isolated test matches and unban tours. A similar thing happened in regards to Alolan Raticate in the ZU Gods Among Us tour where people thought Alolan Raticate was balanced in the round where it was allowed while the reality was that it wasnt healthy without excessive prepping. I think that this is a fair argument, the optimal way to assess how Throh would perform in the metagame is a suspect test. That gives us a greater idea of the specific place Throh could have in our metagame and give the meta a chance to properly adapt to it, and would confirm whether or not Throh is a positive and balanced addition to the tier or if its too overwhelming. This is why I am currently in favor of a Throh re-test.

 

[BP]

I haven't really give my exact opinion on how I feel about Throh so I suppose now's the time to do so. I'll keep this short since Council has essentially covered everything.

First off I just want to say I really agreed with a lot of what BloodAce0107 and Union Caboche said in the post above this one.

It's my personal opinion that Throh has the possibility of being a healthy addition to our Meta. I would agree that it's not nearly as bad as some of the ZUBL Pokemon. Currently we have a lot of Pokemon that are able to threaten Throh such as Swanna, Beheeyem, and the multitude of Trick/Switcheroo Pokemon we have. With all these options I could see Throh changing up the current meta for the better.

My main concern with re-suspecting Throh is its got an incredibly volatile RestTalk set that can run through teams if not prepared for properly. Not only this but its set utilizing Guts is also pretty potent. In addition, Throh makes an already good play style (Hazard Stack) even better with its access to circle Throh. Not only this but most of the top Pokemon in the VR struggle with Throh, namely Komala, Golem, Abomasnow, Shiftry, etc. This means that if we do end up Unbanning Throh there's going to be a huge shift in the meta. Throh's checks will definitely become more common and will provide an obstacle in building. While I don't necessarily view this as broken I would say that it borders on being unhealthy for the meta.

Personally I would like to see a re-suspect but if given the opportunity I would most likely vote to keep in ZUBL.

 

[5gen]

Hey all. Throh talk has sort of dwindled lately and the community is wondering what's going on, so I should share my thoughts. To clarify, a Throh suspect has not been decided as of now since council needs the time to discuss, test, and vote on whether to go forward or not with a suspect test. There isn't an exact time frame for this because of irl activity amongst council. That being said, it shouldn't be too long before we release the decision.

To preface, I want to make it clear that unbanning Throh because "it is the least broken ZUBL mon" or that it would shake up the meta should not be an argument to unban Throh.

Now onto the meat of the post. Personally I believe that Throh should not be unbanned and I'll respond to the pro-suspect arguments made in the thread. Going to do it in bullet points for the sake of conciseness.

Points made for pro-suspect test that I've identified:

• Metagame has better offensive measures for Throh compared to when it was banned
  • Popularity of Swanna and Rotom-S and Psychic-types such as Beheeyem, Kadabra, and Mr. Mime
  • Other lesser seen Pokemon or sets that could be used to adapt to Throh such as CB Granbull and Z-Hurricane Shiftry
  • Easy to pressure with the abundance of breakers in the tier
• Throh has sufficient defensive counterplay through Pokemon such as Gourgeist-XL and Granbull
  • Sets like BU (and its variants) and Rest-Talk Circle Throw Knock Off are manageable as a result
• Throh as a healthy addition to the metagame for its ability to check top Pokemon such as Z-Me First Pinsir, BU Komala, Shiftry, etc

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The first point is debatable because the state of the meta Throh was banned in and the state of the current meta are somewhat similar. Back then (late 2017) our playerbase was exponentially smaller than it is now so I'll give everyone a point of reference:

Unfortunately the most precise VR available is post-Throh ban here: http://zutier.boards.net/thread/16/sm-zu-viability-rankings. Lack of records and expired ppads leave newer players little to work with, so I'll illustrate how the meta looked back then compared to now.

• Pokemon ZU had at the time that checked or pressured Throh that we don't have now:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Pokemon that check or pressure Throh that were not available at its initial ban:
  
  XL
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

Sources: Old tier list and old January shifts. Throh was banned on November 17 2017, so that's largely where the meta differences come from.

The comparisons and contrasts from the old meta and this meta

Hide

• Fairies
  • Clefairy and Silvally-Fairy are more suited to check Bulk Up / BU Rest-Talk / Rest-Talk Circle Throw Knock Off variants due to their utility options (Clefairy with Encore and set up, Silvally-Fairy with SD), whereas defensive Granbull needs Roar and Z-Heal Bell or Rest-Talk to reliably beat BU Throh (as Throh should speed creep it and set up). In the same vein, Silvally-Fairy would need Rest-Talk or Wish support to reliably check BU Throh throughout the game. That being said, all these Pokemon could handle BU Rest-Talk or Rest-Talk Circle Throw Knock Off (strictly these sets) with the right sets.
    • In terms of defensive checks there's also Mawile and Togetic who could in theory check BU Rest-Talk or Rest-Talk Circle Throw Knock Off Throh with the right sets (Mawile needs Taunt and Play Rough. Togetic needs CM as Dazzling Gleam is not even close to a 3HKO), but those are arguably inferior sets outside of Throh.
  • Guts Flame Orb Throh circumvents these checks because of Facade and Knock Off. Rest-Talk Granbull is more complicated because it can switch into Facade reliably, but is very exploitable and can even lose to Bulk Up Guts Throh (4th move on Throh is very flexible)
    • Calcs

      [*]-1 252+ Atk Guts Throh Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
      [*]-1 252+ Atk Guts Throh Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 77.6% chance to 3HKO (Lefties knocked off)
      [*]0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Throh: 260-308 (68.2 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
      [*]252+ Atk Guts Throh Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 181-213 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Throh: 260-308 (68.2 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage (Bulk Up into Facade off the switch)
  • In terms of offensive Fairy-type checks, this meta is more abundant than when Throh was initially banned, so there is that point for the pro-suspect side. CB Granbull, Offensive Mawile, and Mr. Mime could reliably pressure all Throh sets and provide offensive counterplay.
• Defensive Walls / Ghosts
  • The comparison here falls to Palossand and Gourgeist-XL/Silvally-Ghost. Palossand could only pivot into any Throh variant as it was hard walled by it and was a passive option. Gourgeist-XL does what Gourgeist-L did but better; Leech Seed and continually pivot into Throh. Silvally-Ghost is in a similar boat, but is a more offensive outlet due to Parting Shot and SD. However, none of these Pokemon can reliably check Guts Flame Orb Throh as it can run Taunt (which I've tested) to effectively shut down Palossand and Gourgeist-L/XL, and Silvally-Ghost is chipped down heavily by Guts boosted Knock Off.
• Other offensive counterplay
  • Old Throh meta had breakers such as CB Stoutland and CB Passimian (that was a thing back then before USUM movepool changes) that could pressure any Throh variant. Articuno was also present and offensive variants checked Throh. Choiced Rotom-Frost and Manectric could cripple Throh with Trick/Switcheroo, but were walled by Rest-Talk sets.
  • CB Komala, Swanna, and Switcheroo Floatzel pressure Throh in general as well.

The takeaways:

• More Fairies = more natural counterplay to Throh compared to the old metagame where Silvally-Fairy and Clefairy were the main Fairy-types. However, Guts Flame Orb Throh can still play around Fairy-type switch-ins much like it did with Silvally-Fairy back when it was around.
• While breakers such as Swanna, CB Komala, Mr. Mime, and Floatzel can pressure Throh and limit its capabilities, the same logic applies to CB Stoutland, CB Passimian, Offensive Articuno, Trick Frostom, and Switcheroo Manectric for the old meta. To me, this argument does not help convince me that Throh would be easier to manage now than before.
• Defensive counterplay through Ghosts and bulky walls is roughly the same as Throh's initial ban.

The first point of the pro-suspect argues that this metagame is better equipped to deal with Throh than when it was banned. Personally, I believe this metagame is better equipped at dealing with Throh specifically in Fairy-type checks. Offensive pressure through breakers, Trick/Switcheroo Pokemon, and defensive switch-ins outside of Fairy-types are all relatively similar with this meta and the old Throh meta as I've outlined above.

Moreover, from my testing and building I've found that Throh is incredibly easy to support and is a low-risk high-reward type of Pokemon. Its own checks are usually naturally pressured in the metagame or easy to pressure, and I've found lots of success with pivots. For example, Flying-types being weak to rocks and easy to exploit with Scarf Evire or fast Electrics; Psychic-types not being able to switch into Guts Throh or not taking Knock Off from Rest-Talk sets; Ghosts are susceptible to Guts sets and generally don't even threaten Throh; and Fairy types are easily pressured.

I realize that the dynamic of this metagame and the old Throh metagame are different, but in terms of counterplay to Throh, I believe there are no stark differences other than Mr. Mime, Granbull, and Offensive Mawile. Rest-Talk Granbull can potentially lose to Guts Flame Orb Bulk Up off the switch and is fairly exploitable in general, whereas CB Granbull, offensive Mawile, and Mr. Mime heavily pressure Throh. Personally, I still do not believe that these additions would make Throh manageable because it was not even manageable back when Clefairy and Silvally-Fairy were very common.

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The second argument to suspect Throh is that is has sufficient defensive counterplay through Pokemon such as Gourgeist-XL and Granbull. This point is relatively short because this point is objectively false. This claim is supported by the fact that Throh's versatility is simply too great to contain defensively. I acknowledge that Bulk Up Rest-Talk Circle Throw, Rest-Talk Circle Throw Knock Off, and Guts Flame Orb have their individual checks such as Gourgeist-XL, Dusclops, Granbull, Tangela, Beheeyem, Rotom-S, etc, but Throh can play around all these checks one way or another. Passive walls that can stall out Rest-Talk and Bulk Up variants fold to Guts Flame Orb Taunt or Toxic 3 attacks. In theory, Gourgeist-XL will hard wall Throh, but it's shut down by Taunt and worn down by Toxic. Furthermore, Psychic- and Flying-types such as Beheeyem and Rotom-S cannot switch into Guts boosted Facade. In addition to that, Knock Off cripples would be walls such as Dusclops and Tangela.

Another argument I've seen about Guts Throh specifically is that it fails to OHKO or 2HKO most physically defensive walls. Guts Throh is more of a tank than a pure breaker; its coverage and utility options enable it to break down teams and circumvent physically defensive walls, unlike other breakers such as SD Pinsir who try to muscle past walls.

The metagame simply is not capable of handling Throh defensively, so I do not consider that it is more manageable defensively now than it was during its initial ban.

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The third and most interesting argument to suspect Throh is that it would be a healthy addition to the metagame, being able to check Pokemon such as Komala, Shiftry, Pinsir, Golem, and Electivire. While I agree that unbanning a banned Pokemon should come with benefits and that Throh would certainly help cover these threats, I do not think it is necessary. All the aforementioned top Pokemon are fine and the metagame is stable, so I do not see the point in introducing an arguably broken Pokemon just to help team building. In fact, I believe that introducing Throh would actually negatively impact the tier because of its arguably broken nature.

As of now I am not for a Throh suspect.

 

[5gen]

Council voted and Throh will not be suspect tested. Votes and reasonings found here. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to PM me.

 

[Funbot28]

While the metagame is in a relatively balanced state currently with a lot of threats flourishing and playstyles being all well versed and balanced there is just one little threat that has been growing on me and has been causing more of an annoyance / detriment to building and playing that I would like to speak on.

This threat is Shiftry

Now this is not a mon that we haven't been dealing with for a while, as it did drop some time ago and it really has only been recently where it has picked up some steam and I now view it has one of the most difficult offensive wallbreakers to handle in the tier. I would like to convey why I believe so through these arguments:

1) Incredible set diversity:
Now we do have examples of other offensive threats who also have more then one viable set, maybe even sets that attack from different sides of the offensive spectrum (ie: Swanna and Combusken), however I feel the sheer versatility of Shiftry's offensive movepool really opens the option for so much fluidity within its sets. Whether it be Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Mixed, each of these sets require a different sort of counterplay which can really be hard to accommodate on a lot of teams due to the abundance of other stuff that needs to be kept in check, most notably being Komala, Swanna, Electivre, and Pinsir. Shiftry opens up holes in the opposing team like no other threat, via a powerful Knock Off, the threat of Sucker Punch for offensive teams, coverage in Focus Blast which targets obscure checks that may try to take it on like Pawniard and Avalugg. While most Shiftry sets tend to be SD as of now, it can still be difficult to scout for which set Shfitry may be exactly and the shuffling of mons to try to check it can be overbearing when trying to play around powerful Knock Offs and the threat of setup via SD or NP. An example of this in ZU open: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-877739337

2) Obscure checks:
Now thankfully Shiftry does not have the best speed stat meaning it needs to rely on Sucker Punch to check offensive teams. However when observing the current metagame, it can abuse this trait when considering the most common scarfers are somewhat frail (ie: Evire, Swanna, maybe a case for stuff like Abomasnow and Mr. Mime). Defensively, there are not many options to deal with Shiftry really and this is becoming apparent when builders need to go to the direction of sets such as Aguav Berry Grandbull and niche stuff like Togetic in order to handle the threat of Shiftry. There are some blanket checks that can take it on with the most notable examples being Silvally-Fighting, Monferno, Silvally-Dragon, Tangela, and defensive Machoke. However, all these examples are either extremely prone to being worn down, can get crippled by an incoming Knock Off, or straight up lose to Specially Offensive sets. The last point is what I want to highlight, as while physically based Shiftry are the most commonly seen and stuff like Granbull and Fightvally are good checks to it, special Shiftry still has a bunch of potential especially when considering how it can abuse its most "conventional" checks.

To close, yes I agree that Shiftry may not sweep every single game, but I must stress how potent it is as a wallbreaker currently. As I stated, it can open up holes in defensive cores like no other threat currently imo and the amount of potential it has via its set versatility is nigh unmatched. I really feel a suspect is warranted especially considering the fact that Throh is not gonna be potentially dropped down.

 

[BP]

Preach Brother!

This threat is Shiftry

Shiftry is a Pokemon that I've only recently voiced my concerns on over discord and Chat. I really hate playing this Pokemon because I always feel likes its a mind game when trying to figure out its set. Scouting, in general, is a nightmare when dealing with Shiftry. Namely, I don't want my Mawile coming in and getting bopped by a random Leaf Storm. That being said I also don't want to predict wrong and let Shiftry receive a free Swords Dance because then everything faster becomes Sucker Punch fodder. Because of Shiftry's sheer diversity in meta, it doesn't have any solid prominent checks. Silvally-Fighting is an example of a check that almost always works, however, it gets demolished by Z-Hurricane Shiftry; a set that's seeing more use nowadays. It's an amazing wallbreaker capable of punching holes in every team out there. My biggest gripe with this Pokemon is how much it restricts building. I'm not sugar coating it when I say building for this thing feels like I'm trying to build for Rotom-Frost meta all over again.

Overall, Shiftry is a disgusting Pokemon in my eyes that needs to be addressed. I would completely agree with Funbot28 regarding his opinion on a potential suspect. To be blunter I am in favor of a potential suspect test of this Pokemon

 

[Apagogie]

(I on discord the december 17 2018i)​

I cannot disagree with Funbot or broken phobias. Shiftry is currently the best ZU mon, the most centralizing one but also the threat which deserves the most a suspect test.

Shiftry is provided of numerous instruments which allows it to be a step above the rest of the ZU. Knock Off stab, Sucker Punch STAB, the grass type, one of the biggest movepool, the possibility to be played physical/special/mixed, the speed which allows to outspeed the "slow meta" (faster than komala) without the boost of the nature. These advantages allow it to spam Knock Off in a tier which lacks of dark resists and where physical walls take either super effective damages or have the eviolite removed, they allow too it to clean faster mons with sucker punch stab which is a killing machine at +2 and to 6-0 stall according to the set since Pyuku cannot stall it. Shiftry hasn't bad match ups, in fact, it only has good ones.

Answers to Shiftry fill every team now andthey are weird and not reliable. Since mainstream walls dont work against our Santa Claus, other things such as Monferno, Machoke, Mawile, Avalugg, Granbull, Tangela and sometimes Vullaby or Togetic are played to be able to counter it. These kind of mons dont have all the reason to be played outside of the existence of Shiftry, which restricts a lot the way how you build your team, especially for balances. You dont always have the necessary slot to add an odd mon only for a mon.

That's obviously not the only issue. As I said above, these answers aren't reliable at all.

Here is what I think is currently the best Shiftry set. Credits to HoennConfirmed, quagsgone and certainly others that I forget to mention to have created this set. It's strange at the first look but considering a lot of Shiftry checks/counters are physical, LO Leaf Storm or Z-Leaf Storm is generally better than SD Seed Bomb.

Shiftry @ Life Orb / Grassium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Leaf Storm
- Swords Dance

And now, here some calcs against mainstream Shiftry answers against this set (spoiler : they are not always very good answers) :

Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Shiftry: 146-172 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 127-151 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Shiftry Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangela: 194-228 (58 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SD on the switch and you beat Tangela. It's not a counter, just a check.


4 SpA Shiftry Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Fighting: 202-238 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Fighting: 135-159 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It can only switch one time.


4 SpA Shiftry Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 103-122 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- 33.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Same

(Once Koffed a first time) +2 252+ Atk Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 176-207 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Life Orb goes until 81%. Monferno is one of the most solid answer (even without a max def spread). Unfortunately, def ferno is pretty bad outside of the Shiftry match up.

(Once eviolite knocked) 4 SpA Shiftry Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Machoke: 291-343 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's not a reliable check

4 SpA Shiftry Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Granbull: 291-343 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's not a check

4 SpA Shiftry Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 355-418 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
If it's spd avalugg (a bad set), it cannot switch on Z-Leaf Storm + Leaf Storm.


Vullaby and Togetic both take Shiftry very well. They are however not very good outside of the Shiftry match up considering how passive they are, how outclassed they are by respectively Silvally and Altaria and how weak they are against common threats such as electivire or golem.

These mons considering as good Shiftry answers struggle to deal with only one set which is, in my opinion, the most effective in the current meta. Shiftry is able to run different set as well such as Z-Hurricane with or without Nasty Plot which is very good against these answers.
More offensive mons able to revenge kill such as different scarfers in the tier cannot switch on it or are at the mercy of Sucker Punch with very little chip (2 times the SR are generally enough). Sucker Punch at +2 destroy them obviously. For example :
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Combusken: 203-240 (77.7 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Outside of these "answers", it sweeps the rest of the tier.

Face a Shiftry is not something which is really fair considering the user has better chances to win only in using it. The opponent has to guess correctly all the moveset of Shiftry (which is almost impossible, the sets are too much customizable) and never let a free double switch happens to dont let it set up a Swords dance. The restriction it imposes to teams makes paradoxally the offenses one of the only playstyle viable, even if offenses dont have good way to deal with Shfitry at +2. You hope that your own Shiftry + Combusken + eventually a Silvally will be enough to handle it.

Yes, it is broken, yes. Just yes. I dont know what else to add. This mon restricts every team, forces the whole meta to be played around it, is able to kill every answers it has, is potentially able to get rid of every playstyles in the tier with a single set. I'm strongly open for a suspect test. It's a problematic mon.

 

[Xayah]

Alright, I'm sorry in advance for shitty quality in this post, but it's past midnight and I doubt I'll have time to write this some other time soon, so I'll go ahead and do this now. I'll try and get through this soon.

From what I've gathered from the posts so far, they've mostly been lists of Shiftry's qualities, which I am gonna go and assume most people know, as opposed to its actual effect on the metagame, where a broken mon like it would definitely invalidate certain mons or force them onto teams, right? UC alluded to it in his last paragraph, but I've really not seen any proof of it, so I intend to actually evaluate how different playstyles deal with Shiftry.

Offense
As we all know, offense is both the best playstyle against Shiftry and my preferred style, but why is that? Why is it that offense, the best style in the meta right now, can actually deal with Shiftry? That's because it's slow. Very slow, even, for a frail offensive mon, relying basically completely on Sucker Punch to make up for that low Speed. However, Sucker Punch is easily played around and isn't exactly particularly strong either without a boost because of its 70 BP. So, now you might be saying 'but if your faster mon is chipped it'll die to it anyway'. And you're right. Luckily, any well-built offense should have 2 Pokemon faster than Shiftry at least. Base 80 Speed is not that great, and it usually runs Adamant on top of that, so between Pinsir, Swanna, Electivire, Scarf Abomasnow, Monferno, Floatzel, offensive Silvally, Kadabra, Rapidash (seriously start using Rapidash more), etc, there's really a lot, and I mean a LOT, of great mons for offense that outspeed it that can take a +0 Sucker Punch (or, in Swanna's case, have a good chance to live one even after Rocks while giving it a run for its money with the Roost mind game), some of them even capable of taking a +2 one, like Monferno, Sash Kadabra, and any HP invested Silvally (or, you know, a Dark-resistant one). And this is before even considering the fact that Choice Scarf exists!

Also, real quick, to bring attention to this calc in UC's post:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Combusken: 203-240 (77.7 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
...this is not a good thing. This suggests Shiftry either won the mindgame of SD on Protect, even though Combusken really doesn't have a reason to Protect since it lives any +0 hit, or was already +2, which I mean fair but it got a prediction right, does it not deserve a 30% to beat a check?

Now, sure, all of these faster mons can be whittled down, many of them lack recovery, yadda yadda. And yeah, that's true. However, if a player manages to wear down their opponents team over time in order to put their Shiftry in a position so that Sucker Punch eventually kills everything, does it not deserve that reward? Again, 70 BP is weak as shit and it really needs that +2 to kill many of these mons, which isn't easy to get, and even then it's still praying that none of them have Substitute to avoid Sucker, at which point nothing mattered at all. Hell, Rapidash can just WoW it to say no to it completely.

Oh and Machoke is perfectly viable on offense too, which is just even more ass for Shiftry.


Balance
Okay, let's move on from the archetype Shiftry's worst against (which also happens to be the best in the meta right now, not a good sign for it, but okay), and discuss the one it's best against. Because yeah, admittedly, balance struggles with Shiftry. It really, really does. It can't stack faster mons effectively enough to reliably revenge kill Shiftry, nor can it have enough defensive mons to deal with it reactively. Its best hope is really to prevent it from setting up, but that can be hard at times. Or defensive Monferno, but that's quite a niche set, so fine, I'm willing to ignore it.

However, even against this archetype, Shiftry struggles to do its job completely on more than one occasion, and that's mainly due to it needing LO to really be an effective breaker more than once (this is the issue with Grassium Z btw), which results in it killing itself pretty damn quickly. Add onto that that Grass is an atrocious offensive typing, leaving it to rely on Dark for the most part, and you got a mon that, even in its best matchup, can just sort of die before accomplishing quite enough. An experienced player piloting a well-built balance will not be happy to see a Shiftry, but they also shouldn't just be giving up. Wear it down, pressure it with the faster mons you do have, and maybe force it to drop momentum sometimes.


Stall/Semistall/Other bulky teams
Full disclosure: I don't play this archetype. At all. I don't build it, I don't get how to play it well, so I really don't intend to linger on this for a long time, but basically, stall has all the tools it needs to just wait out Shiftry's PP and Life Orb with the likes of Avalugg, Altaria, Machoke, Granbull, even Togetic, and whatever niche mon kay is gonna come up with next week. Who knows, maybe Vullaby's gonna be stall's new face, I don't get that guy. Again, wearing it down and preventing it from coming in as much as you can shouldn't be too bad.


General flaws
So, now that we've gotten its spot in the meta out of the way, let's talk about how Shiftry isn't the perfect god being the previous few posts have described it as. First off, and most importantly, Shiftry is not easy to get in. Every post so far has glossed over this fact that in order to actually get something in, a player has to either make a proactive play like doubling or using a momentum move (admittedly not that taxing, but with several of the mons Shiftry preys on, like Golem, being immune to Volt Switch, it at least makes it slightly harder), which deserves to be rewarded, or their opponent has to not realize 'oh hey, if I grab this kill on Swanna with Bronzor, Shiftry can come in and threaten me. It's more effective long term to switch out right now into something like Watervally', meaning they make a mistake, which should be punished. In addition, it's complete ass against faster mons with Sub, which should be more common than they are because damn is Sub a good move. And, lastly, if it makes a wrong prediction by, for example, setting up an SD on a switch to FightingVally, then it immediately puts its team on the backfoot. All in all, Shiftry is too hard to get in and too prediction reliant when it is in to be broken, in my opinion. The previous posts have looked at it mostly in a vacuum, where it's certainly good, but that's not entirely fair.

Yes, Shiftry's a great breaker. An excellent one. But this call for a test is, in my opinion, just another response to a good mon showing that it's good, like happened with Floatzel, Pyukumuku, Komala, Pinsir, Electivire, and even currently, Swanna. All of those received calls for tests until we realized 'oh never mind they're fine if we just change our builds slightly'. Monferno, Rapidash, and Granbull aren't unviable by any means, Sub on faster mons isn't that bad. Build with it in mind, and you'll be fine. At least, that's been my experience.

EDIT: apparently the main point of my post wasn’t clear. I currently don’t believe Shiftry’s broken, yes, but I mainly want to encourage people to put things in context instead of just looking at Shiftry in a vacuum.

 

[Xayah]

Usage stats are here!

We've lost Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Silvally-Ghost, and Tangela and gained nothing. Please feel free to discuss the implications of these changes in this thread.

 

[BP]

First Off RIP Tangela: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tangela-qc-1-3.3648192/ shameless plug for likes

Secondly: Losing Silvally-Ghost is probably one of the more influential loses. Especially for me due to my T-wave Ghost Specs Abom cores. I don't feel like losing Pom Pom really affects us that much. We never really explored it all to much due to Electivire ruling the meta and Swanna just being most teams Z-move user. Furthermore, Golem was essentially everywhere.