Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

Lurantis from B- to B+

I'm making this nom based moreso on a very underrated set that I've been using in the current meta, RestTalk, Superpower and Knock Off. In the current meta, this set is very easy to sweep with in the early or late game. After a single superpower most players will have to resort to bringing in their Rotom-F and hoping Blizzard hits and even then it still doesn't die (unless it's Z blizzard) and can often just finish it off with a Superpower and then heal up to continue sweeping. And the utility that spamming Knock Off brings in some matchups is extremely valuable. The replays below show how good this set is right now more than I can explain lol.

 
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Apagogie

Zee you later
is a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
B- -> B+

I know that's not the first time I ask a rise for Lurantis, I'm not the only one either who asked that moreover. If I come always with this nomination, it's simply because I feel like Lurantis is severly underranked. The reason why Lurantis is ranked so low is mostly the comparaison people did between it and Servine, a lot of people thought Lurantis was just a bad Servine (just look at the page 5 when Lurantis was ranked). In this post, I'm going to try to explain why that's not as simple as it looks like and why Lurantis is better than Servine. I'm going to talk first about the others Lurantis set and then focus on the defog set.

Lurantis sets

RestTalk

Lurantis @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Atk / 24 Def / 16 SpD / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Superpower
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

That's my favorite set of Lurantis, the spread allows to handle torterra Z-Wood Hammer at +2/Lycanroc Z-Stone edge, avoid the 2HKO of Jolly golem Stone edge, an ice beam of Regice Modest and outspeed Licki and Mawile with 8 Ev in speed. Raw Melon posted a variant with koff which is also playable and make some match-up against stall easier even if you lose your stab and you cannot kill pyuku.

This is relevant because Servine cannot do the same job. Servine doesn't have superpower, either other good offensive coverage move and Servine has pitiful offensive stats (60 bst). That's the first point, you cannot say Servine outclasses Lurantis if one of the best Lurantis set is totally different than what Servine does.

This set was underplayed when Lurantis dropped to ZU and wasn't very considered when it was ranked (even now, this set doesn't appear on the list of lurantis sets), this explains maybe the absurd level of comparaison there is today between lurantis and servine. I'm going to explain why this set works so well. The first thing there is to notice is there are only two counters to Lurantis Rank S to A- (Gourgeist and Muk), except if you run one of these two mons, you don't have any real switch-in. Mons like Frosttom, Bouffalant, Rapidash, Pinsir, etc cannot come on Lurantis (but could on Servine) and for mons who hit on the physical side, they cannot RK it. That's a second point for Lurantis, it's a mon really difficult to RK. I will take an example, just imagine you want to revenge kill a lurantis which set up just one superpower with one of the strongest fire attacker, a Rapidash LO.
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. +1 248 HP / 88 Def Lurantis: 283-335 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 104+ Atk Lurantis Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You lose your rapidash on it. And I took a powerful mon hitting with one of the strongest fire move in the game and SE damages. According to that, that's not difficult to build a team around lurantis. You just need something to pressure the two mons listed above, and something to come on strong special SE moves such as blizzard of frosttom or hurricane of oricorio. A good probopass set is generally enough. Lurantis has a nice match up against bulky teams, can get rid of some of its answers (Rapidash, Pinsir, Ninjask in switching few times), has a nice match up against sticky, is useful against rain, strong in TR teams and very customisable according to your team. Only for this set it is B+ worthy.

I anticipe an answer "Yeah but it's a grass types and we have already plenty of grass types to play". None of grass types has the same role than Lurantis gets. You don't add a mon according to its type but according to what it does in your team (except if you wanna play FWG core). If you're looking for a mon which has a good offensive presence (and servine doesn't have it, I already explained that a bit earlier but I will focus on that in the end of my post), which is decent against rain, which allows you to not be 6-0 by sticky, which is terrific against bulky build, you don't have a lot of choices, even if you have already a grass type in your team. Have some mons with the same typing in your team isn't bad if you're able to balance the weaknesses of your team. To simplify, 5 mons weak to ice but with the last member able to handle all users of ice moves in the tier doesn't make your team weak to ice. In the opposite, if you have a team with no ice weakness but no mon able to handle a blizzard of frosttom, your team is weak to ice.

Others

I will be short on the other lurantis sets, you can play exactly the same set than the one I posted above but with Knock off and Z-Aromatherapy instead of Rest and Sleep talk. It allows you to get rid of annoying ghost types and weaken the opposite team easier. It's globally a more offensive version of the precedent set which is more useful in more specific teams but with the conterpart to lose in staying power.

Some AV variants exist too with Leech Life in last move to restore the health. I don't like it much but I recognize that's not only a low ladder set, the main difference is you don't use lurantis here to weaken the team but more like a finisher, this set is more effective in late game than in the beginning of the battle. I saw some AV sets with leaf storm instead of leaf blade and sometimes hp too, it allows to break easier gourgeist and other physical tanks. This set performs mostly in TR.

Other sets exist such as Synthesis/Leaf Storm/Superpower/hp fire which has is own utility in wallbreaking stuff and certainly others than I forget to mention here. I just wanted to show than Lurantis had other sets than the defog one, there were all viable and unrivaled, customisable and Servine cannot do that because doesn't get superpower, has bad offensive stats, grass isn't good offensively and servine doesn't have good coverage moves to compensate that, etc. By themselves, these Lurantis sets deserve a B+ rank because they are threaten, unique, unpredictable, doesn't have a lot of answers, are modifiable according to your team and able to get rid of their own answers.

Lurantis vs Servine in defogger

I want to break the misconception about the two grass contrary defoggers. Lurantis has always been considered like a bad Servine to be short, however, I've observed the exact opposite for different reasons that I'm going to explain right now. Lurantis is more viable than Servine, even in defogger.

Why could you play Lurantis or Servine in defogger ?

That's the first question we have to answer and it's not an easy one. It's however very important to determine that because without, you cannot make a proper comparaison. You have to know what role Lurantis/Servine have exactly to compare them.

There are plenty of defoggers in ZU, Vallys are the best one, why do you use Lurantis/Servine instead of other defoggers ? That's not because they are more reliable, stuff like Togetic/Silvally-Water/Vullaby are far more reliable than them. That's not either because they are fast defoggers, all Vallys outspeed them. That's not because they have good coverage moves, Vallys are again better for that. Vallys get too the momentum than neither Lurantis nor Servine have. That's not even to have solid defoggers fast able to RK, Silvally-Dragon is better for this role. They are better defoggers make the teambuild easier, Rotom-Fan stops Torterra SD or Silvally-Fighting get rid of Vigo and can take a hit of Lycanroc for example. That's finally not to have a grass defoger, Grassy-vally exists and it is faster, has momentum, has coverage moves. A pure offensive presence is also given by defoggers such as Combusken or Frosttom.*

So why could we add Lurantis or Servine in a team ? There are actually two reasons :
1) They are the only defoggers to win the 1vs1 against every stealth rock setters
2) They are the only bulky* defoggers with an offensive presence able to pressure the opposite team

There aren't other relevant reasons (or do you see an other one ?). If you play Lurantis or Servine for other reasons (speed, Momentum, reliable, etc), you can switch it for better mons. So it's with this two propositions we will determine what mon is better than the other.

Why Lurantis is better ?

If we look at the reason number one, it's approximately a tie. Lurantis is able to get rid of things better thanks to Superpower (one shot Probopass), can as well run other coverage moves instead of leaf storm to break easier stuff (koff against bronzor/metang for example) or take advantage of Intimidate of Mawile. On the other hand, Taunt of Servine is fine to avoid a toxic on few mons or block sr setter if the opponent decides to let his mon dying. Lurantis is maybe a bit either on this point but that's not fully convincing. Lets take a look on the reason two.

Yeah, that's terrible for servine. To have played it many times in several teams, Servine isn't able at all to pressure the opponent. Well, Leaf storm spam looks very cool but not on a mon which has 60 bst Spa (aka 156). Speed isn't relevant here except maybe for grumpig because your duty is to pressure the opposite team and almost every offensive mon is faster than you and almost defensive mon is slower than servine, bulk isn't either relevant for the same reasons. The only reason to play Servine over Lurantis (because Lurantis has a decent SpA to spam Leaf Storm what Servine doesn't have) is to play taunt. It means if your only offensive move is Leaf Storm and... How to say this ? It sucks. Grass is one of the worse offensive typing if not the worst one just after steel. You are totally wall by Bouffalant and Zebstrika, frail mons such as Combusken/Ninetales can switch on you, you struggle to break bronzor/metang, Leafeon/Shiftry can switch to koff you, Pinsir and Rapidash are almost free switch, same for chatot. It won't be a problem if Servine had a good offensive stat but remember it has only 60 SpA... So it gives stupid calcs like this
+6 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 247-291 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+6 0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 222-261 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
To compare with Lurantis, both cannot switch into at +0 because they lose the 1vs1 if they did. Servine is just disappointed and bad, that's what you notice when you play it seriously against a good player. Don't forget either, Leaf Storm has only 8 PP. You have to pressure the opposite team with a mon which isn't able to one shot a Rapidash at +6 with a move of 130 base power and which is limited to 8 attacks in a battle (if you dont miss)... In needing spamming move to set up. Rotom-Frost which is the best mon in ZU can switch twice on Servine, cannot one time on Lurantis. So except if your opponent is very very very bad, Servine is just a joke offensively. It's a bad offensive mon and it's a pity because that's why we play it. It's also the reason why it's a bad contrary user and it's the reason why it is C- in PU in the same time than Lurantis is B.

Now, lets take a look on Lurantis and it's immediatly bright. I said earlier but except muk and gourgeist, there is not a lot of mons able to switch into lurantis without risk. If the opponent does the wrong anticipation between defog or superpower/leaf storm, it can easily lose one mon. Lurantis is also far more difficult to revenge kill than Servine, which also an advantage to pressure the opposite team (physical attacker cannot get rid of lurantis at +1 except Z-Move SE damages). I don't even talk about teams which are just unprepared to Lurantis, plenty of them cannot deal with once Frosttom/Combusken are out. It's also far more effective in defoger against webs teams because Pawniard/Purugly cannot switch into, Lurantis isn't walled either by the mons listed above, Bouffalant/Zebstrika cannot switch into, all offensive mons mentionned struggle against, none mon in bulky teams except muk can the combo of leaf storm + superpower, etc. Lurantis is just perfect in this role, it's a defoger which get rid of all stealth rock setter and which is able to pressure the opponent team. Servine is just a bad Lurantis

Why did people think Servine was better ?

Because on the paper, Servine is bulkier, has taunt and is faster. That's of course not a reason to proclaim Servine was better because we saw Servine have a lot of handicaping flaws which make Lurantis far better. But even if it's not necessary, I want to qualify these affirmations to break definitly the myth around servine.

1) Bulk

The belief about the bad bulk of Lurantis compared to Servine comes with these calcs :

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Lurantis: 135-159 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Servine: 105-124 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO

I don't show a calc on the physical side because Lurantis and Servine have both the same bulk on the special and on the physical side. It's very simple to conclude Servine is far bulkier than Lurantis in seeing these calcs. But it's more difficult than it looks like.

First of all, that's a calc without item on Lurantis. With leftovers, Lurantis has approximately between 33~and 40% at the end of the turn which isn't a big difference with what Servine handles. That's obviously not the same thing (in terms of switch for example), but you don't have to forget the item when you're talking about the bulk of a mon. A Psychic of Mr.Mime wont never let Lurantis at 54% at the end of the turn but at 60% minimum, that's an important thing to notice.

Secondly, Lurantis doesn't have to run a lot of speed/power unlike Servine. It means you can give a bulkier spread to Lurantis, something you cannot do to Servine without sacrifie speed or power (and Servine really needs an offensive spread to work). It gives you something like that (spread of the VR) :
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 248 HP / 84+ SpD Lurantis: 111-132 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO
Again the same calc versus Servine (it's the spread of the VR)
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Servine: 105-124 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
Yeah, you see what I mean. Lurantis is bulkier than Servine because Lurantis can spend EVs in Def or SpD and Servine cannot do that without sacrifie the advantage it gets over Lurantis. Also, it's obvious but Lurantis runs leftovers so with the item, it is far bulkier than Servine. Again a point to Lurantis.

You don't have to forget either Lurantis has Superpower in its movepool. Lurantis has in a battle opportunities to increase its natural bulk. Superpower allows to handle hits than normally it cannot such as Flare Blitz LO of Rapidash, Flare Blitz of Monferno, 2 X-Scizzor of Pinsir, etc. Servine is unable to handle this, in whatever situations.

To finish on this, Knock off is one of the best moves in the game and is common. If Servine is koffed (against a tang for example), there is no doubt it's more handicapping than if Lurantis loses its leftovers.

2) Taunt

Taunt is the reason why Servine has a niche to be played over Lurantis. Otherwise, there is no reason to play it. So I won't deny it's a good move and a nice choice on Servine, but it's not either the Holy Grail which allows Servine to obscure its alterego.

If I have to give a definition of taunt Servine, it would be a bad friend. You feel that it's a good choice to hang over with it but you will be disappointed very soon. When you realize your team lack of a defoger, isn't bulky enough, cannot bypass stall, lack of speed control, lack of offensive presence, is 6-0 by webs, you're tempted to play Servine to compensate all these issues. The problem is your team and Servine wont solve that because Servine is good in nothing. Servine doesn't get a correct offensive presence because with 60 SpA and grass type, you cannot do wonders, you cannot bypass stall with as only attacking move a move of 8 PP, Servine hasn't the greatest bulk ever (and still less if you decide it should have an offensive presence) and isn't either the more reliable defoger. Taunt Servine looks like a good mon but never fully accomplishes its role.

I want to add also that's not the best user of taunt in the tier. I will just take the example of toxic. A part of the toxic users are one shot by Lurantis (probopass), on the decline (mawile and taunt > toxic) or Servine cannot stop it. Licki for example is a toxic user which is used to toxic Taunt Viggy which otherwise destroys bulky build, same for Z-toxic Pyuku. I also mention Vallys are the more commons mon running toxic and they are often played with enough speed to outspeed Frosttom... So to outspeed Servine. Toxic is just an example, I could talk about SR or heal move as well and the problems are exactly the same, Servine fails to correctly use taunt in battles, and that's not uncommon.

To finish this, Taunt users are generally useful to beat stalls, that's a common reason to play them. Servine isn't able to stallbreak. It's totally walled by Muk, PP stall otherwise or even revenge kill with combusken variants. If your only answer to stall in a team is Servine, you can forfeit turn one, it cannot bypass stall.

3) Speed

Okay I will try to be short here, 83 Speed isn't good. I mean, if you say Speed is an advantage of Servine compared to Lurantis, you have to use it to be coherent. With 83 speed, you are outspeed by Frosttom which is the best mon in ZU... And Frosttom isn't fast. Servine is one of the slowest offensive mons (if we can call Servine "offensive"). That's just a shame because it's easy to RK it, Lurantis which is a slower mon is far more difficult to RK than the grass snake. Lurantis is slow but is able to outspeed what it has to outspeed, Servine isn't slow but isn't able to outspeed what it has to outspeed. There are just few mons you're glad to outspeed with Servine and that's not mandatory either. It's cool to outspeed Grumpig but that's not a duty either, same with Missy. There aren't plenty others. Speed is useful mostly with the combinaison of taunt, otherwise that's not relevant.

Conclusion

The post is longer than I expected. I will mention a last thing, I'm aware I didn't mention the variation of viability of lurantis between March and now. That's coherent with what I think. In my opinion, Lurantis deserves the B+ rank since the beginning and was ranked lower due to a large comparaison with Servine. I don't say it is the only reason but that was the main one. These arguments were inaccurate, they lacked of an analysis between what Lurantis and Servine concretly do, a mention about the things Lurantis does over Servine (I've never seen someone mentions Superpower which is the most played move on Lurantis) and an outlook detailled about the Bulk/Taunt/Speed argument which would show the major flaws of the classical analysis. I hope to have convinced and even if not thank you to have read this post.

(PS : There is certainly a ton of grammatical mistakes, it's late in my country, I'll correct it tomorrow)
* : stuff like after reading the Diagnostic's post
 
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So why could we add Lurantis or Servine in a team ? There are actually two reasons :
1) They are the only defoggers to win the 1vs1 against every stealth rock setters
2) They are the only defoggers with an offensive presence able to pressure the opposite team
Make sure not to neglect our offensive SR setters. Both of these are severely crippled or lose to Crustle, Monferno, Endeavor-Lead Lycanroc, and Pinsir, all which are capable leads against non-Silvally Defoggers.
:mehowth:
To claim that they are the only defoggers with an offensive presence is also quite bold since we have pokemon such as Shiftry, Rotom-Frost, Combusken, and offensive variants of Silvally that fill similar role compression for those who desire offense-based compositions. Lurantis and Servine face too much competition for a slot versus our other commonly used defoggers and while Lurantis is the better offensive pokemon between the two, Servine's niche lies in its speed and ability to cripple setters with a fast taunt or paralysis in Glare.
 

Apagogie

Zee you later
is a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Make sure not to neglect our offensive SR setters. Both of these are severely crippled or lose to Crustle, Monferno, Endeavor-Lead Lycanroc, and Pinsir, all which are capable leads against non-Silvally Defoggers.
:mehowth:
To claim that they are the only defoggers with an offensive presence is also quite bold since we have pokemon such as Shiftry, Rotom-Frost, Combusken, and offensive variants of Silvally that fill similar role compression for those who desire offense-based compositions. Lurantis and Servine face too much competition for a slot versus our other commonly used defoggers and while Lurantis is the better offensive pokemon between the two, Servine's niche lies in its speed and ability to cripple setters with a fast taunt or paralysis in Glare.
For the first claim, all mons you list are suicid lead (bar Ferno on some sets). Obviously neither Lurantis or Servine are able to pressure them because it's the role of these leads to assurate the SR are UP. I add Pinsir SR is unplayed since Lycanroc is in the tier (and Shedinja team are uncommon nowadays. The only Pinsir Sr is generally the unpredictable scarf sr), Monferno wins vs Lurantis only with very bad rolls otherwise Lurantis kills it, Crustle is better with Koff over X-Scizzor and Lycanroc is Lycanroc (and you can win the dual easily if you choose to play koff over Leaf storm which is a possibility on Lurantis, it helps too against golem and bronzor/metang). All these mons lose to Lurantis too if they set up the SR/Spikes instead of attacking it . If say "they win the 1vs1 against all the defoggers" without precisions was pretty inaccurate on my side, that's not totally false either. None defogger has a so decent match up against all the SR setter, even with Pinsir/Crustle/Lycanroc/Monferno

On the second claim, mea culpa, of course there are others, I had this in mind at the beginning of the post but I completely forget when I arrived to this point. I'm going to add bulky to be totally correct, neither Lurantis/Servine fit in purely offensive builds. Thank you.

Yeah, Lurantis is better offensively, in practise it is also bulkier than Servine. The niche of Servine is only to have a Fast taunt/glare (taunt is better imo). Lurantis is actually B-, Servine B. Lurantis is however more viable and is certainly not a "bad servine" as I read sometimes. That was too the main argument why it is ranked so low. Also, remember Lurantis doesn't have only the defog sets, the offensive sets are all very threaten for unprepared teams. Therefore a jump is globally deserved, the comparaison with Servine was problematic on some points and ignore other aspects of Lurantis sets. Except if other things appear, I think B+ fully fits to our grassy bug.
 
B- ------> B


I've been using Butterfree quite a bit recently and based on how it has been preforming I don't believe that B- is the right spot for it on the VR. Quiver Dance Butterfree is really the only set you should be running on this Pokemon and its honestly the only set Butterfree needs to preform well. Below I'll have the main set I used as well as a variant to that set with a few replays.


Butter isn't Free (Butterfree) (M) @ Buginium Z
Ability: Compound Eyes / Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder

Say No to Lycan (Butterfree) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- Quiver Dance
- Air Slash


Quiver dance is the best shot Butterfree has at being viable and that in conjunction with its two quality abilities are more than enough to make it so. First and foremost Butterfree has access to Sleep powder and ability to Compound Eyes which means instead of having 75% accuracy it now has 98%. This is huge when trying to set up once Butterfree's checks are gone. Furthermore Butterfree has access to Bug Buzz with provides it with a decent STAB move to abuse. Tinted Lens can also be run in order to hit harder against Pokemon that resist Butterfree such as Muk.

Unfortunatly due to its lack luster defenses and overal poor defensive typing it can be easily checked. This means it is Crucial that you remove or significantly weaken / cripple Butterfree's checks. Furthermore Butterfree is shut down by Stealth Rocks so it is very important that hazards are removed from the field when Butterfree comes in. Lycanrock, Butterfree's biggest check, needs to be removed from the field before setting up as Accelrock always OHKO's Butterfree.

Replay 1 (Chatot Liepard Balance Cut short because he forfeited RIP)
Replay 2 (Spooktune's Muk & Golem Balance)
Replay 3 (Butterfree Supports the team instead of sweeping)

In conclusion, based on my findings and experience with Butterfree, I feel that the B rank is its rightful place as of right now on the VR. Please give the sets a try and let me here your opinion.
:psyglad:
 
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Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Time for a new VR update! For the record, the Butterfree nom was not yet taken into consideration but will be discussed in the next slate. Otherwise, all nominations made here were discussed and voted on, in addition to several noms made within the council.
Torterra A+ -> S
Torterra has been the second best Pokemon in our metagame for a while and it is time to reward it. Its typing is great right now, offering a valuable Electric immunity and EdgeQuake resistance, causing it to make Golem suffer in our metagame. Both its offensive and defensive sets are incredibly powerful. It is the driving force behind a rise in other Grass-types like Tangela and Silvally-Grass that has been going on for a while and is definitely better than the rest of A+, so it is rising to S.
Monferno A -> A+

Monferno's typing has been good for a long time but it has been proving its excellence recently. Being able to U-turn on and dent Grumpig heavily is very valuable while its access to Iron Fist Mach Punch is great in a meta filled with Lycanroc and Liepard. It offers greater utility than Combusken and is generally better than it, so this is now reflected in its higher rank.
Silvally-Fighting B -> B+
Silvally-Fighting is currently the tiers most effective Knock Off absorber while also being a very solid switch-in to Lycanroc and Liepard and a Defogger that resists rocks. Fighting-types in general are fairly threatening and this means it deserves a rise.
Mareanie B- -> B+
Mareanie is one of very few Pokemon capable of consistently switching into Monferno and Combusken, the other main one being Grumpig, while also being the best Toxic Spikes setter and offering good utility in Scald. Also, Regenerator is broken. It is threatened by both of our S-ranks, but at least Torterra doesn't like switching in for fear of Scald or Toxic and Mareanie doesn't mind switching out because of its ability.
Lurantis B- -> B
I highly recommend reading Union Caboche's post on Lurantis for the reasoning as to why it rose. The reason it didn't go to B+ quite yet is because it struggles to fit onto teams with other prominent Pokemon like Torterra and Tangela due to stacking important weaknesses to Fire and Ice. The council does recognize it as better than Servine, which is reflected in the other's drop. This could rise more in the future, but we're being careful here.
Oricorio B- -> B
Oricorio's typing is a great boon in the current meta, treatening highly relevant threats like Torterra, Rotom-Frost, Monferno, and bulky Grass-types. Both Choice Specs and Choice Scarf are very dangerous at the moment while bulky Taunt + Roost is capable of switching into and forcing out some of the aforementioned threats.
Sandslash B- -> B
Sandslash is another good switchin to Lycanroc and its high physcial defense means it can also check several Pokemon like Golem and Monferno. Being able to both remove and set Stealth Rock is also quite nice for Spikestack teams, so it is rising.
Silvally-Dark C -> C+
Silvally-Dark is a much bulkier user of Pursuit than Liepard is, allowing it to more consistently take on Focus Blast Grumpig, capable of actually taking one hit. It's also a good Knock Off absorber, which is worth something too.
Golem A+ -> A
Golem has really, really not been liking the popularity of both Torterra and Poliwrath recently. It also faces competition from Crustle and the aforementioned Torterra, while being weak to Drill Run, meaning it's a far less good check to Lycanroc than the Grass/Ground type. It still has value, but is much less good than it used to be.
Kadabra A+ -> A
Kadabra has been suffering from loads of competition from the other major Psychic-type, Grumpig. Thick Fat is more valuable than Magic Guard for the vast majority of teams so Kadabra simply doesn't see as much use as it did before. It's still a decent emergency button for HO but nowhere as it good as it was.
Mawile A -> B+
Poor, poor Mawile. There was a time when it was one of the best defensive mons in the tier, when the strong Normal-types it checked ruled the tier. But everything changed when April attacked. Now, it is a Pokemon with an honestly mediocre typing that loses to several of the best offensive Pokemon (Monferno, Torterra) while having no recovery whatsoever. It's dropping to B+ today and possibly lower in the future.
Gourgeist-L A -> B
Another Pokemon making a massive drop. Leaving the reasoning for this one to 5gen:
Gourgeist-L has plummeted in viability in this metagame. It faces tremendous competition from other defensive Grass-types, does not check the best Fighting-types in the meta in Combusken, Monferno, and to a lesser extent Poliwrath, and just struggles to justify use. Lycanroc can blow past it at +2, Liepard forces it out, and does not check Pokemon as effectively as Tangela or Torterra. Moreover, Pokemon such as Bouffalant or Dugtrio-A that Gourgeist-L counters commonly run Sub+Toxic, so it can’t even check them well. Gourgeist-L simply struggles to justify use in the meta and is restricted to more defensive builds due to its passiveness.
Pawniard B+ -> B
Diagnostic: Pawniard suffers from the rise of fighting and ground types that came with the introduction of Lycanroc and Alolan-Dugtrio in our tier. It still suffers from having to make crucial 50/50's against pokemon such as sub grumpig and probopass and it doesn't have useful speed control outside of sucker punch, which Purugly excels at. Pawniard also hates taking contant chip damage from pivoters such as Rotom-Frost and doesn't like the rise of offensive defoggers such as Fighting Silvally, Combusken, and Lurantis, which have no issues switching into a Swords Dance or Iron Head. Torterra's presence makes it much harder to deal with since you don't know whether it's offensive or defensive until you scout the set and Jolly variants will always ohko it. Pawniard ultimately need more support than it gives to its teammates and should step down a rank.
Huntail B -> B-
Froasty: Huntail’s weaknesses are simply incredibly crippling in this metagame. Huntail would perform best against balanced teams (not offensive balance)... if we had enough of them for that to matter. Meanwhile a large number of strats like stall and webs can prey upon it. As it is the prevalence of rain forces Huntail into using Swift Swim over Water Veil in order to be effective against rain teams, but even this is a matter of 50/50s rather than a surefire way to sweep rain, since the encore users could choose to swap in or revenge-encore huntail into waterfall (which ends its ability to sweep). This is also assuming that it is A: using a set with a normal move and B: won’t be KO’d when it tries to set up, which will likely demand white herb because of rain making Huntail faster than the non-swift swim Pokemon of rain.
Servine B -> B-
Diagnostic: As the meta continues to change, Servine faces more competition from other Defoggers and even as a Contrary user. Lurantis has a much better match up against stall and has the offensive stats to back up its boosting attacking options. Unlike Lurantis, Servine has no way of beating sap sippper users such as Bouffalant and Zebstrika and is usually momentum loss for most teams that could have utilized a better defogger or grass-type attacker. While Glare / Taunt may be attractive options, Rotom-Frost along with other electric types are not affected by Glare and many slower users pressure out Taunt variants with offensive utility or resists such as Monferno and Muk. Not being able to check wallbreakers such as Lycanroc only add to the list on how poorly it performs in the meta.
Togetic B -> B-
Diagnostic: Togetic is dropping for the same reasons it formally dropped. This meta is unkind to it. It still loses to new hazard setters in crustle and lycanroc, it can't wall boosted torterra despite resisting STAB. It has little to no usage on stall despite the fairy typing and role compression over Vullaby (Stored Power check) and Defensive Silvally forms. Rotom-Frosts still threatens it and there are much more threats to account for such as Taunt Toxic Grumpig and Sub Toxic Alolan-Dugtrio. It also doesn't help that it's reliant on its eviolite to functon and cannot act as a knock off absorber despite its typing.
Check out the voting results here!
 
Nominating Gothitelle to go from unlisted to C+ tier



What do you get when you combine some of the best traits of Grumpig and Meowstic-F? Answer: Gothitelle.


Lady Gaga (Gothitelle) (F) @ Mago Berry
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 20 SpA / 236 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
- Signal Beam
- Recycle

To keep it brief, the role compression that Gothitelle provides is truly unique. There are no Pokemon in ZU who can exactly fill its niche. What Gothitelle provides is role compression (as mentioned) for defensive spike-stacking teams. It threatens Defog users with a +2 Special Attack Competitive boost if they choose to remove hazards, while also being able to tank many of the tier's popular attacking 'mons (most notably Rotom-Frost). In addition, Parting Shot users (Silvallys) are threatened with a +3 Special Attack boost, should they attempt to pivot out on Gothitelle. While Gothitelle has slightly less Special Defense than Grumpig, it makes up for it with a 95 base Defense, allowing it to tank some mixed/lure sets (and U-Turn!), unlike Grumpig.
While the mentioned pros to using Gothitelle are huge, the cons to Gothitelle can be substantial. Gothitelle, like Grumpig, is weak to Pursuit trappers (though it has Signal Beam). Without its Competitive boost, Gothitelle has a middling offensive presence. Naturally, Gothitelle is neither better than a Grumpig or a Purugly/Pawniard/Meowstic-F at their specified roles, as it is used for role compression mainly. Gothitelle is limited to defensive spike-stacking teams because the need to Defog is more necessary against spike-stacking teams, and because it is outclassed by Purugly, Pawniard, and Meowstic-F on offensive spike-stacking teams.

0 Atk Life Orb Combusken Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 161-192 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Combusken Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 120-143 (34.9 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 120-142 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Gothitelle: 178-210 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Gothitelle: 67-81 (19.5 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 91-108 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Kadabra Signal Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 144-170 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Signal Beam vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Gothitelle: 106-126 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 63.8% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Liepard Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 216-254 (59.5 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Liepard Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 158-188 (46 - 54.8%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Silvally-Dark U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 176-208 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Silvally-Dark U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 130-154 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 102-120 (28 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Gothitelle: 76-90 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- 6.9% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Gothitelle: 124-147 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 20 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Water: 196-232 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 20 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 178-211 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

20 SpA Gothitelle Signal Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kadabra: 142-168 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

20 SpA Gothitelle Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Liepard: 184-218 (68.4 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

20 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chatot: 186-219 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Replay #1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-769789387
Replay #2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-770057902
Replay #3: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-770255641
Replay #4 (SSNL Round 1 Match): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-770397861
Replay #5: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-771050445

All in all, Gothitelle is the definition of a C+ rank 'mon; kind of outclassed (by Grumpig, in being a bulky Psychic-type, Purugly/Pawniard/Meowstic-F in being a Defog/Parting Shot discourager), limited to certain teams, but performs well enough to where the pros outweigh the cons.
 

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Alright I've played with this Pokemon a lot and it's time to nom it for a rank.


Silvally-Bug UR -> C-/C

I know, I know. This is really weird. But this Pokemon is legitimately not horrible. First off, here is the set I've been using:
Silvally-Bug @ Bug Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt
A lot of things on this are strange, but I'll go over each of them. The most notable thing about Silvally-Bug is the second most powerful U-turn in the meta, only falling behind Ninjask with a boosting item. ZU currently is a very momentum based meta and with a lot of the top meta being either very (physically) frail or Bug weak (Torterra, Grumpig, Liepard, Mr. Mime, Tangela, etc) it's really cool to be able to constantly click a move like U-turn. I use this over Ninjask for two reasons: much better bulk means it's reasonable to switch into things like Grumpig and Liepard and immediately threaten them out while its 2x weakness to Rocks instead of 4x weakness means it gets more opportunities to do its thing.

Swords Dance is really, really cool for Silvally-Bug as well. As opposed to Ninjask, it has the bulk to set one up on fairly powerful neutral attacks and unlike Pinsir, it can then chunk a switch-in immediately with U-turn while generating momentum. It seems like a weird combination but it's surprisingly valuable. Of course, if you want to stay in, you have a powerful STAB in Multi Attack (which is higher BP than both X-Scissor and Leech Life). Zen Headbutt seems weird at first glance but it takes care of a lot of switch-ins, especially after a Swords Dance, like Mareanie, Monferno, Poliwrath, Machoke, and Muk. It does leave you walled by Steels, but that's where U-turn comes in again. A boosted U-turn is very powerful and can do a decent chunk to some Steel-types, but it also immediately allows you to pivot into your own Probopass or whatever else you've got to deal with Steels.

All in all, Sivally-Bug is a solid antimeta breaker right now that generates a lot of momentum. Here are also some replays of it in action:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-768756337
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-772509238

And here is the team I used!
 

Aaronboyer

Be yourself an angel of kindness
is a Contributor to Smogon
Alright I've played with this Pokemon a lot and it's time to nom it for a rank.


Silvally-Bug UR -> C-/C

I know, I know. This is really weird. But this Pokemon is legitimately not horrible. First off, here is the set I've been using:
Silvally-Bug @ Bug Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt
A lot of things on this are strange, but I'll go over each of them. The most notable thing about Silvally-Bug is the second most powerful U-turn in the meta, only falling behind Ninjask with a boosting item. ZU currently is a very momentum based meta and with a lot of the top meta being either very (physically) frail or Bug weak (Torterra, Grumpig, Liepard, Mr. Mime, Tangela, etc) it's really cool to be able to constantly click a move like U-turn. I use this over Ninjask for two reasons: much better bulk means it's reasonable to switch into things like Grumpig and Liepard and immediately threaten them out while its 2x weakness to Rocks instead of 4x weakness means it gets more opportunities to do its thing.

Swords Dance is really, really cool for Silvally-Bug as well. As opposed to Ninjask, it has the bulk to set one up on fairly powerful neutral attacks and unlike Pinsir, it can then chunk a switch-in immediately with U-turn while generating momentum. It seems like a weird combination but it's surprisingly valuable. Of course, if you want to stay in, you have a powerful STAB in Multi Attack (which is higher BP than both X-Scissor and Leech Life). Zen Headbutt seems weird at first glance but it takes care of a lot of switch-ins, especially after a Swords Dance, like Mareanie, Monferno, Poliwrath, Machoke, and Muk. It does leave you walled by Steels, but that's where U-turn comes in again. A boosted U-turn is very powerful and can do a decent chunk to some Steel-types, but it also immediately allows you to pivot into your own Probopass or whatever else you've got to deal with Steels.

All in all, Sivally-Bug is a solid antimeta breaker right now that generates a lot of momentum. Here are also some replays of it in action:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-768756337
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-772509238

And here is the team I used!
Alright so there are a lot of things here that are totally true and make sense for Silvally-Bug going to C- and Silvally-Bug is just overall a very cool nomination, but there are several things I felt tha weren’t addressed that for me will be keep me voting UR. Again cool nom though.

One of my biggest complaints with this nominations is Species Clause, which prevents the use of any of our other fantastic Silvally types such as Silvally-Water or Silvally-Fighting if one chooses to use Silvally-Bug. Most of these top-tier Silvally formes that we can no longer use have access to the coveted Defog, meaning during team-building, you are going to have to resort to something else. This is worse now because Silvally-Bug itself is weak to Stealth Rock and susceptible to all forms of hazards. Furthermore Sandslash, arguably the best Rapid Spinner for Silvally-Bug, will be leaving ZU to NU almost guaranteed (albeit for a month). (PS: this is the form of hazard control Xayah used in his team and his team will not be legal once stats come out for June) (PSPS: Somebody shouldn’t feel forced into using Sandslash + Silvally-Bug when we have other great Bug-types such as Pinsir, especially since that core isn’t that great to begin with.)

Another point I would like to bring up is that Silvally-Bug is terribly outclassed by other offensive Bug-types such as Ninjask and Pinsir, and that having the second strongest U-turn in the metagame isn’t a great enough niche worth ranking. Other Silvally formes in C- Rank have actual niches I would consider using. Silvally-Psychic for example is the ONLY physical Psychic-type our tier really has to offer. And Silvally-Ground? Silvally-Ground is a fairly good Offensive Defogger that resists the Stealth Rocks it is switching to and uses Rock Slide to form pseudo Edgequake. Zen Headbutt is seriously Silvally-Bug’s best option? Compared to something like Pinsir who has Ground, Fighting, Rock coverage and more, plus has actually useful abilities and can equip itself with an actual item, Silvally-Bug isn’t worth using on any serious team.

All in all, I can’t understate how much I love this nomination. Utilizing underrated Silvally formes is something I always love to see. But when you factor in a Stealth Rock weakness, inability to hold an item, no true ability, lack of good coverage moves, lack of good hazard control because you limited yourself, and being generally outclassed, I can’t see anywhere for Silvally-Bug to go except remain UR.
 

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Alright so there are a lot of things here that are totally true and make sense for Silvally-Bug going to C- and Silvally-Bug is just overall a very cool nomination, but there are several things I felt tha weren’t addressed that for me will be keep me voting UR. Again cool nom though.

One of my biggest complaints with this nominations is Species Clause, which prevents the use of any of our other fantastic Silvally types such as Silvally-Water or Silvally-Fighting if one chooses to use Silvally-Bug. Most of these top-tier Silvally formes that we can no longer use have access to the coveted Defog, meaning during team-building, you are going to have to resort to something else. This is worse now because Silvally-Bug itself is weak to Stealth Rock and susceptible to all forms of hazards. Furthermore Sandslash, arguably the best Rapid Spinner for Silvally-Bug, will be leaving ZU to NU almost guaranteed (albeit for a month). (PS: this is the form of hazard control Xayah used in his team and his team will not be legal once stats come out for June) (PSPS: Somebody shouldn’t feel forced into using Sandslash + Silvally-Bug when we have other great Bug-types such as Pinsir, especially since that core isn’t that great to begin with.)

Another point I would like to bring up is that Silvally-Bug is terribly outclassed by other offensive Bug-types such as Ninjask and Pinsir, and that having the second strongest U-turn in the metagame isn’t a great enough niche worth ranking. Other Silvally formes in C- Rank have actual niches I would consider using. Silvally-Psychic for example is the ONLY physical Psychic-type our tier really has to offer. And Silvally-Ground? Silvally-Ground is a fairly good Offensive Defogger that resists the Stealth Rocks it is switching to and uses Rock Slide to form pseudo Edgequake. Zen Headbutt is seriously Silvally-Bug’s best option? Compared to something like Pinsir who has Ground, Fighting, Rock coverage and more, plus has actually useful abilities and can equip itself with an actual item, Silvally-Bug isn’t worth using on any serious team.

All in all, I can’t understate how much I love this nomination. Utilizing underrated Silvally formes is something I always love to see. But when you factor in a Stealth Rock weakness, inability to hold an item, no true ability, lack of good coverage moves, lack of good hazard control because you limited yourself, and being generally outclassed, I can’t see anywhere for Silvally-Bug to go except remain UR.
Comparing to other C- Pokemon is entirely fair, so we can do that.
Silvally-Electric is outclassed by the tons of other Electric-types we have, with its only niche being access to U-turn which 1. Pom Pom also does and 2. is the same thing as Silvally-Bug has over other Bugs like Pinsir (while having a lesser Rock weakness over Ninjask, similar to ElectricVally vs Pom Pom).
Sivally-Psychic is really, really bad. Being a physical Psychic-type is worth much less than having such a strong U-turn from Silvally-Bug. It doesn't have a niche or role really whereas Silv-Bug is a momentum generating machine.
Silvally-Ground is probably better than Bug, but it still faces ridiculous competition from Pokemon like Sandslash (another Ground-type hazard remover) and Torterra.

Now for all the others:
Alolan Golem has a very minimal niche with both Kanto Golem and Probopass in the tier and really doesn't do much the two of them don't.
Fearow...
Frogadier is maybe kind of a Choice Scarf user or an attacker? This mon might be better than Silv-Bug but not by much.
Glaceon isn't completely horrible with Z-Celebrate being kinda interesting but we have much better Ice-types and it has to deal with competition from the best mon in the meta. I'd say this has about as much use as Silv-Bug.
Krokorok is garbage. Why would I use this. We have better Pursuit users, better Ground-types, better Dark-types.
Lopunny breaks stall with AssVest Trick which is uh... something. I mean it does that pretty well but it's more niche than a powerful U-turn with solid bulk.
Lycanroc-N is completely outclassed by Lycanroc and hates Torterra being as common as it is.
Politoed does what? Even Perish Song is done better by Lapras and if you want a bulky Water without recovery, use Silvally-Water.
Porygon is a relic from a time I made a video and really shouldn't be ranked in a meta where Manectric isn't on every team anymore.
Prinplup is lol. It's outclassed by Silvally-Water. This doesn't see use, has no recovery other than Rest, and is definitely worse than BugVally imo. Setting and removing rocks isn't a niche when you have to remove your own as well and don't really have the moveslots for it while taking the Water-type slot for your team.
Solrock is tied with Wormadam-Trash and GroundVally for the best mon in C-, I'd say. Typing is decent but without Stoutland in the tier it's just not as good as it was. Better than BugVally though.
Wartortle...
Weepinbell is outclassed by other Chlorophyll users on Sun, which isn't even exactly good right now.
Wigglytuff can be a special Defog deterrent for Webs but I'd rather use Purugly or even Pawniard. Would say on par with BugVally.
Wormadam-Trash is a decent set up sweeper with RestTalk Quiver Dance and can be annoying to deal with, but it's really weak to good mons like Monferno, Combusken, Rapidash. Better than Silv-Bug though.

Based on that, I think BugVally fits in pretty well.

As far as species clause goes, yeah it sucks for it but the main reason I paired it with Sandslash was because I was also Spike stacking on my team. Otherwise, I'd pair it with Defog Rotom-Frost, Rotom-Fan, or even Combusken, as the place it fits best is VoltTurn HO anyway.

Zen Headbutt sounds terrible but it's very good coverage for it. As I said before, it covers most of its switch-ins and you'll usually be U-turning around anyway.

At the very least, BugVally deserves to get a spot in Usually Useless among things like Corsola, Girafarig, Mothim, and Oranguru, though I really believe it's better than all of those.
 
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Alight, give me a chance.

1531333459850.png


Unranked-> C

Set I have been using but I could also see assault vest or leftovers as an option as a pivot.

Furfrou-Pharaoh @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Rest
- Return
- Toxic


First thoughts looking at it normal is a great typing as it only has one weakness, Fur Coat amazing ability which doubles its defense stat, Cotton Guard boosts your defense +3 in one turn! Base 102 speed is not bad either you outspeed Monferno without speed nature most notably and also any base 60 and below with speed nature. So when is a good time to use Furfrou? I have been having the most success using it as a late game sweeper. Running Max Spd Max Hp allows you to tank special attacks with a cotton guard up this mon can be difficult to take down. Toxic allows it to cripple opponent mons that are defensively bulky. Yes, this set has it flaws steel posing a major threat with return doing 0 and immune to toxic. But blalib cant I just run vigoroth as my normal sweeper? Vigoroth one of the most dangerous setup sweepers in the tier by using bulk up. My largest problem with Vigoroth is when it loses its eviolite it has mediocre defenses. Also one bulk up is sometimes not enough for Vigoroth it often needs two to tank heavy physical attacks.

252+ Atk Choice Band Monferno Close Combat vs. +3 248 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 140-168 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Monferno Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Furfrou: 120-142 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 108-127 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 12.2% chance to 3HKO


252 Atk Silvally-Fighting Multi-Attack vs. +3 248 HP / 0 Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 74-90 (20.9 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Silvally-Fighting Multi-Attack vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 128-152 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



Replays (more to come)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-774431221
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-774421335
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-774467499
 
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Farfetch'd is quite good as a revenge killer with decent attack and signature item "Stick" which helps gaining 50% crit chance and can deal tons of damage. He has 2 moves to revenge kill including First Impression (+2 priority) and Quick Attack. I suggest ranking him C or C+.
83[1].gif

UR --> C/C-
Farfetch'd @ Stick
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- First Impression
- U-turn/Knock off/Leaf Blade
- Quick Attack
 
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Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Farfetch'd is quite good as a revenge killer with decent attack and signature item "Stick" which helps gaining 50% crit chance and can deal tons of damage. He has 2 moves to revenge kill including First Impression (+2 priority) and Quick Attack. I suggest ranking him C or C+.
View attachment 128473
UR --> C/C-
Farfetch'd @ Stick
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- First Impression
- U-turn/Knock off/Leaf Blade
- Quick Attack
We all know that Farfetch'd is really bad so you're gonna have to work harder to convince me and others to rank it. Most notably, I don't see why I would use this over any Choice Scarf user that can more reliably revenge kill, generally offer more utility, and don't get walled by Steel-types that have been getting better. Most notably, I'm talking about Pokemon like Rotom-Frost, Monferno, Mr. Mime, and Pinsir. For direct competition as a Normal / Flying-type, look no further than Chatot.

I could try to go more in depth but for now, I'd just like to point out this from the VR:
Most importantly, if you wish to nominate an unranked Pokemon to be ranked, replays are required.
I appreciate the activity and hope you'll stick around, I'm interested to see some replays!
 
Well time for my first real post on smogon

Silvally-Ice: Unranked->C-/C/C+/B-
I know this might seem like a weird nomination, and I'm not exactly the kind of guy that deserves to have his ideas listened to, but I actually got some use out of this thing. Let's start with the set I used, given to me by iFeedback (I added Flame Charge based on feedback):

Silvally-Ice @ Ice Memory
Ability: RKS System
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang/Flame Charge
- Crunch

Now let me explain the set, and why it's somewhat useful. This is a full out physical set, which is used as a lead. 95 base speed, 252 speed EVs, and Jolly Nature give a it speed stat of 317, allowing it to outspeed Frostom (which clocks in at 298). With 95 base attack and 252 EVs give it a high 289 attack, which, if Swords Dance is added to the mix, results in a blistering 578 attack. It also has a reasonably powerful physical Ice-type move in Multi-Attack.

+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 216-256 (89.6 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 228-270 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio-Alola: 346-408 (163.9 - 193.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Silvally-Grass: 414-488 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Dragon: 494-584 (149.2 - 176.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 378-446 (139.4 - 164.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 206-246 (61.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chatot: 882-1038 (301 - 354.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Grumpig: 356-420 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 280-330 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Beheeyem: 356-420 (103.4 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Metang: 186-220 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Grumpig: 356-420 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 280-330 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Beheeyem: 356-420 (103.4 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Ice Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Metang: 186-220 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
226 defense and 227 special defense allow it to take hits fairly well too.
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Ice: 132-156 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Ice: 187-222 (56.4 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio-Alola Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ice: 228-270 (68.8 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Why is Silvally-Ice better than Unranked? Well, for starters, it resists ice, so one of Frostom's STABs aren't as effective with it, and it can take a Thunderbolt from it just fine, as shown above. In addition, while Torterra and Sandslash may have left, Lycanroc, Poliwrath, Probopass, Pyukumuku, and Manectric also left, which Silvally-Ice greatly appreciates. Abomasnow also gets destroyed by Fire Fang, and Silvally-Ice outspeeds it. Golem might give it some trouble, but even then, Silvally-Ice is faster, so it can at least take a good bit out of it. Overall, with good prediction, Silvally-Ice can be a fairly solid Pokemon.

Here's are four replays showing off what Silvally-Ice can do.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-772729258 (second best)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-780148129 (worst, but still good example)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-780751347 (best one)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-780918812 (third best)
I get that they're not the greatest replays, but it's what I got and I feel they show this set off fairly well.

I get that this isn't the greatest mon, but I still think it deserves to be ranked nonetheless. I've never done a nominiation before, but I hope you will take this into consideration.
 

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Silvally-Grass A- ---> B-
Due to the tier shifts, we got some big changes included torterra and liepard rising and abomasnow dropping. Torterra leaving means defog silvally grass no longer checks the best rocker. Golem which is used alot in place of torterra can threaten silvally grass alot with choice banded fire punch or just a strong stone edge. This partnered with the fact that abomasnow dropped means that the best set in scarf bops it. Liepard leaving makes it so that silvally dark is another valid silvally which is just better than silvally grass. tl;dr silvally grass has lost it's niche due to the shifts.
Edit: With lycanroc leaving, bug types like butterfree & pinsir and fire types like rapidash have gained popularity making silvally grass even worse
 
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Apagogie

Zee you later
is a member of the Battle Simulator Staff

Unranked -> S

I know it will be quite controversial but I think Kecleon deserved the S rank. Since Kec has been arrived in ZU, i had the feelings it will be an amazing mon able to centralize a lot the meta around it and looks barely broken as I said in my precedent post. It was only intuitive at this moment, I tested a lot Kecleon and my opinion doesnt evolve on this subject. Before starting to explain why I think Kecleon deserves to be in the highest rank of the VR, I would like to invite everyone to test it in real battle, with several sets, and not only on paper. We can list easily the weaknesses of Kec only with a !dt on Showdown and analyse its movepool but it doesn't take into account the meta, the interaction Kecleon has with the other mons and the pressure it does into a real battle. If I said that, it's because I heard too much times stuff like "It's slow, it has low physical defense, its attack and base power moves aren't amazing, 4mss" which are mainstream opinions which could be prounounced by anyone which doesn't know the ZU just with a !dt or in looking at the movepool. However, I will try to answer to these arguments because they are often been presented. But first, let me say why Kecleon is S worthy.

I read a sentence on the OU VR which I like a lot and reflects fully what I think about our lizard. The main reason why I think Kecleon deserved the S rank is definitely the amount of support it doesn't need. Splashable, versatile, support, defensive ability, offensive pressure, speed control. Kecleon is an amazing role compresser which fits in whatever archetype, in whatever playstyle. It makes the team flexible for changes and easy to build in removing threats, in giving support to partners or in pressuring at the same time on bulky and offensive builds. It centralizes the meta around its utilization, mons like Mawile fit slighty better only for their ability to often check Kec. Same for mons like Tangela which normally became far less good than before due to the shifts but which gain usages thanks to Kec (and btw Tang is a bad mon to switch on it).

The most common set of Kecleon is the AV. Drain Punch + Koff + Shadow sneak is almost mandatory (Shadow Sneak can be switch by Sucker if you wish and even koff could be removed if your team doesnt need it), the last move is quite free. In my opinion, Power Up Punch is a nice last option but stuff like Fake Out/Fire Blast are good too. Its set is self-suffisent and needs nothing else special to perform. It's a nice tank able to deal with frosttom, deal with Vigo in its pup variant, bring speed control with its priority, weaken the opposite team with koff, etc. Thanks to its bulk, Kecleon has the ability to benefict a lot of the types change with Protean : offensively Shadow Sneak + Drain Punch is unresisted in the whole game, defensively Kecleon likes abusing of a fast ghost move to dont be hit by fighting/strong normal moves like Boomburst and a slow Drain punch to restore the life without being able to be hitted in this fighting form (by Mr.Mime, etc). Play against a Kecleon is always a story of 50/50 in the favor of the lizard which is rarely punished in chosing the safer option.

I will give a concrete example about the support Kecleon provides to a team. I built a team with Kec where I have other answers against Vigoroth and I didnt really need wincondition because I had already enough. However, I realize after few battles I didnt have a very good match up against HO, TR, and weather teams. I just switched PuP to Fake Out and the match up became very reasonnable against the offenses. I did that without changing any mons of my team. This doesn't prove only the support Kecleon gave but too how muck Kecleon is versatile and how much the opponent needs to check what sets it runs before reflexing about counterplay.

As I said earlier, Kecleon is a mon which doesn't need a big amount of support, i enjoy this part of the kecleon potential a lot. When I took a nice answer to Frosttom which isn't passive, I can add Regice which is a mon I appreciate a lot. Regice is by the way very strong against hail teams. But I dont have the flexibility I get with Kecleon with Regice. Regice is SR weak and needs good hazard removers to do not be caught by Frosttom, Regice doesnt have speed control and I need to balance its presence with a fast mon. Kecleon is spammable in a large part of teams, it's by the way the only Frosttom answer with recovery which is able to set up Rocks. Only that gives it an amazing niche outclassed by no mon in the tier.

I dont talk yet about the offensive presence Kecleon exerces in a battle. I could about that during hours but it could be misinterpreted. No mons like switching on Kecleon, it doesnt have real switch-in. I'm not saying that's a mon which 2HKO all the meta as Ursaring did. I say no mons are 100% safe to switch against Kec in a battle. The role of Kecleon isn't to sweep even if it could do that, the role of Kecleon isn't commonly to wallbreak even if it's able to do that. The role of Kecleon is to support your team in correcting its flaws and in weakening the opponent. If you want a wallbreaker, it's a wallbreaker, if you want a revenge killer, it's a revenge killer, if you want a cleaner, it's a cleaner.

We say generally Vallys, Golem, Mawile, Tangela, Muk and Mareanie are Kecleon switch in. On the 6, four doesn't like be koffed, one is the most common set simply loses to Kec. All lose to some lizard sets. I would like to highlight especially the last fourth moves which is a free choice for your team. A lot of people see with sceptisism the Fire Blast or Return sets which looks like more as an original set as a common Kecleon set but which will be anyway never played due to the famous "4mss". That's also what I thought at the beginning but finally, that's not original sets but one of the best options for the fourth moves of Kecleon, especially Fire blast.

The best Kecleon set is actually Drain punch/SS/Koff/Fire Blast with LO or AV. Return could be played instead of Fire Blast, the fourth moves is quite free as I said earlier (Note that it's possible to play as the same time FB + Return in a single set if you remove Koff/Priority even if it's less effective). It means one thing, you are never a safe switch against Kecleon. You always have to check what is the last move. These sets are for the moment quite rare but there are the best sets of Kec. The pression Kecleon provides with 50/50, its strength, the interrogation with the last moves makes it pretty annoying to deal with. It's also a mon which is difficult to get rid due to its very good special bulk and passable physical defense with EVs in HP.

Considering the influence Kecleon has on the meta, its own qualities to support the team, to be splashable and spammable in many teams, its ability to be versatible, its centralization, the flexibility it gives to teams and how easy it makes it to build, its general good bulk to handle some common very good mon, the specific niche it has in almost every of sets, the pressure it exerces to switch against it, its limited number of counters, its ability to disable its own counters, the 50/50 always in this favor it provides and the large amount of support it doesn't need, it doesn't appear for me particulary unreasonable to nominate Kecleon S rank. Yeah it has flaws with its low speed and physical def but we're in ZU, we cannot expect stuff with like Landorus-T to drop here.

Now, i will answer quickly to some arguments I heard against Kecleon in general.

Answer against common arguments

Low speed, low physical bulk, Low attack

I dont like much this kind of arguments because as I said above, it doesnt take into account the meta. But well, its physical bulk isn't very good and it helps a lot of mons to revenge kill it, I wont deny that. On the contrary, say Kecleon doesnt hit hard enough looks quite surprising to me. 90 Bst Attack with Adamant does like a neutral 105 bst Attack. But what makes it obviously really strong is Protean which boosts every no-stab by 50% of power. I mean, Greninja has only 95 in Atk and 103 in SpA (both neutral nature and not adamant like Kec), you dont say it doesn't strong enough even in OU. Of course Kecleon isn't Greninja, of course Kecleon doesnt have the speed and the base power moves than Greninja gets but Kecleon is ZU and not OU. Kecleon thanks to Protean hits generally quite hard on the switch.

About its low speed, Kecleon has priorities with Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak or Fake out to prevent to be easily revenge killed. To be honnest, Kecleon RK often more the opponent than the opponent RK Kecleon. I add Kecleon likes to get a slow drain punch to do not be hitted in its fighting form by stuff like Mr.Mime.

4mss

I heard this too much time. First, this doesnt justify a lack of viability, a flaw sure but only that doesn't justify the mon lack of viability. Then, I dont think Kecleon really suffers for the 4mss.

Let's me explain this. The fourth move of Kecleon is quite free. Of course, there are many options to this and according to what you chose, your team will take easily things and will have quite difficult to bypass other things. But this doesnt mean it's a 4mss. Frosttom Z-Icium also have few possibilities about its fourth move it could be defog, it could be Wow to catch Bouffalant and Seaking no-facade, it could even be hp fire/fight to catch opposite frosttom, i've even seen the Rhydon set with Sub/Pain Split/Thunderbolt/Z-Blizzard which is pretty effective but had to remove Volt Switch. You wont say Rotom-Frost suffers for 4mss because it doesn't need each one of these moves to work correctly in this role. In the same way, Kecleon doesn't need to get Fire Blast/Return/Power Up Punch/Sucker Punch/Fake out, it doesn't need to one shot Mawile, it doesn't need to get rid of Mareanie, it doesn't need to pressure offense... Yeah, it is able to exerce these roles if you need that in your team. But that's not the Kecleon role, the role of Kecleon isn't to break the Mareanie + Mawile core. The role of Kecleon, as I said earlier, is to support your team in correcting its flaws and in weakening the opponent. Normally Drain Punch/SS/Knock off is enough and let you a last move to correct what you're weak. If you wish a purely wallbreaker set which doesnt have switch in, it's also possible with Return/Fire Blast/Drain Punch/Knock Off but as the Z-Blizzard/Thunderbolt/Substitute/Pain Split set of Frosttom, you have to sacrifie a common move to play this very specific set. Of course, Kecleon would like to run every moves of its movepool but like every other mons Mons like Monferno would like to run Flare Blitz/Slack Off/Close Combat/Taunt/Swords Dance/Thunder Punch/Stealth Rock/Mach Punch/U-Turn to be able to get rid of Mareanie, to stallbreak, to set up SR, to heal itself when it needs it, to keep the momentum... But you wont say Monferno suffers from the 4mss. Yeah it's annoying Kecleon isn't able to get rid of Mareanie without Return Knock Off as it's annoying Monferno isn't able to get rid of Mareanie without Swords Dance Thunder punch. But you just have to accept it, you just have to accept to have other mons to do that. Kecleon has the strength to already weaken the opposite mons with Koff and prevents with that to let it stall your team until dead. Dont ask more, if you're team is weak to Mareanie or other stuff, you have the opportunity with Kecleon to get rid of them, it's already very powerful.

Mons which suffer from 4mss are mons which are limited by the fourth moves to accomplish their role. A good example is Electivire which needs Wild Charge/Ice Punch/Cross Chop/Earthquake/Flamethrower to get rid of classical balanced core such as Tangela, Gabite, Muk, Licki, etc. Without one of these moves, Electivire struggles to bypass one of them. In this condition it is a fourth move set syndrom because the role of Electivire (which is to break balanced core) is limited by its fourth moves and to fully accomplish it, it would have needed of 5 moves. Kecleon is in a very different spot because it needs 3 moves and the last one is just according to your team. If you play Electivire, you will support it with your team to prevent the 4mss, for example if it doesn't run earthquake, you will take mons which are able to deal with Muk. On the contrary, if you play Kecleon, you will see about what your team is weak and according to that you will add the last move of Kecleon. It's the exacte opposite. That's why I said earlier Kecleon is S worthy for the support it doesn't need. With a 4mss mons like Electivire, it's the team which supports you to remove the 4mss. With Kecleon, it's itself which supports the team in letting you choose the fourth move according of the flaws of your build in removing one of your weaknesses.

Other noms (quite short, they are normally less controversial and my posted was removed so I was lazy to write lol. I will edit to add later more stuff about Abomasnow/Lurantis) :
Unranked -> A
Strong mon, anti-weather mon, quite versatile. Most common set is Scarf but the best for the moment is imo the Z-Move Wood Hammer one to destroy the common balanced core. Very slow though and needs support. Great addition to the tier.

Water A+ -> A
Silvally-Water even if it's not bad becomes too passive in an offensive meta. It has less competition between water defensive typing with the shifts but it's simply offers too much free switch in. Without coverage move it's really easy to switch into, with it has 4mss. To dont let free switch to several mons it starts to be played with U-turn instead of Parting shot but its defensive typing doesnt really appreciate this variant. The weakness of Frosttom Volt Switch even if it's not new start to be really annoying for a vallys. Kecleon is able to win the 1vs1 without any problem. Vally-Water is globally more a defensive typing and the meta wont really need that or prefere just run a mareanie which check perfectly stuff like Ferno.
Fighting B+ -> A-/A
Vally-Fighting likes a lot how the meta is turning right now. It's an offensive vally in an offensive meta, being a soft answer to kec/golem, to threat frosttom no specs and Obama no scarf. It likes pivoting a lot and remove hazard easily without being weak and let set up too common stuff. U-turn is especially nice on this Vally form. Vally-Fighting become better to better, one of the best vally.
Dragon B+ -> A-
Approximately the same than Vally-FIghting except that it's a still more offensive Vallys. The resists it gets with its typing are quite nice for the moment being able to handle hits from Rapidash, Electivire or even some grassy nices. Frosttom/Obama need to scoot if it doesn't get flamethrower and dont like anyway to take a strong Draco Meteor. They cannot make the wrong prediction either against. One of the best Vally.
Grass A- -> B-
Agree with NIM

A -> A+
The King is dead, long live the King! Golem likes a lot Torterra is gone and it gets its place of best SR setter in ZU. Edgequake really difficult to handle in common teams, unresisted bar Bronzor. Chople, Weakness Policy, Leftovers even Choice Band are playable and really effective in the meta. Golem is just one of the best ZU mon actually.
B+ -> A-
Resists the EdgeQuake, SR setter, handles Obama. Nothing else special to add more except that's quite passive and koff weak though which prevents it to be more effective. But it enjoys a lot the shifts.

A -> A-/B+
Tang hates how the meta is turning shifts after shifts. It became less useful when Stoutland left but now it's still worse. It loses Torterra (Tang was the best answer against SD Wood Hammer), some water type, Lycanroc (even if Tang loses against some lycanroc sets it was an option to dont be too weak to lycan), the meta loses the grass spam to gain the ice spam which is really sad for it. Ursa and Kabutops which were reasons to let Tang has a niche dont stand here anymore. Knock off is everywhere. Stall is dead. It can lose against Kecleon if bad sleep powder rolls or few miss. It doesn't as good as before and isn't necessary as it was in precedent metas.
A- -> B+
Passive, passive, passive. Cleric is actually just a lose of Momentum. The meta is turning to be really offensive and Licki hates that, Knock off is pretty boring as well. It was one of the key of stall team but stall is just dead. If you use it to have a frosttom switch in with recovery why dont use Kecleon over this to have SR ? It lost a lot.

A- -> A
It likes a lot the departure of Lycanroc and Liepard. It's simply a monster without very good switch-ins. It needs support of hazards, koff though but once you get that it's almost a kill every time it comes on the board. The meta is now also slower and get 105 of speed now is really really good, it's one of the fastest no scarf mon. Teams are less bulky than there was in the past and it helps too a lot Rapidash. An amazing mon.

B+ -> A-
That's the best Electivire i've seen for a long time. It's more effective than never in the past in being fast in a meta which became a bit slower and globally it does the same thing than before, break balanced core, but far better. It eats Mareanie + Mawile core, Golem doesn't like at all switch on earthquake. Expert belt and Z-Move are in my opinion the best set but scarf Electivire is really great to revenge kill the opposite mon (such as Rotom-Frost). Very threaten to face.
B+ -> A
Mareanie, Mareanie, Mareanie how can you be so good ? It supports a lot the team. It's a nice Monferno answer and a soft switch in to Kecleon, Haze/Toxic Spikes/Knock off have never been so useful now stuff like Pyuku is gone. Very splashable too. Became a very good mon.
B+ -> A
Mawile, Mawile, Mawile how can you be so good ? It supports a lot the team. It's a nice physical attacker answer and a soft switch in to Kecleon, Taunt/Stealth Rock/Knock off have never been so useful now stuff like Torterra is gone. Very splashable too. Became a very good mon. + it's versatile

B+ -> A
New Manectric

B -> B+
Looks like a weird nom but it isnt. Teams havent many fighting resists. Knock off everywhere helps it a lot. Break balanced core very easily. Yache Berry set could work too even if i didnt test it (credit to Froasty). Some replays tested recently :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-777997104
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-779372851
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-780372575

There are other noms i have in mind (drop missy, drop togetic/dusclops, drop/unrank dugtrio normal) but there are less important for the moment. I would like to finish this long post in saying I like a lot how the meta looks actually like, the teambuilding is more flexible and free than it was in the past, there aren't very busted playstyle and i enjoy discovering new strats in the tier.

And as I've never able to finish my posts, here the team I used recently :
http://pokepast.es/eb0859550e9945c1
Dont take too much attention to the spread because some are old one (the Lurantis spread for example is to handle Torterra Z-Wood Hammer). About the general weaknesses of the team, Offensive chople Golem is really annoying if the opponent predicts right, I need to win 50/50 to be safe against. Mareanie can runs scald to prevent golem to be a free switch. Stack Spikes is also an issue considering i dont have hazard removers in this team but i have way to pressure the opponent to defog thanks to toxic spikes.

Thanks for reading ~
 
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BloodAce

Spin to Win~
is a Tiering Contributor
A -> A+

Probopass' exit from the metagame makes normal spam much better, Chatot being perhaps the best example of this. Chatot also appreciates Lycanroc's exit from the meta, as Lycanroc was easily able to take out Chatot with an unboosted accelrock after Stealth Rock damage. Chatot also didn't have a favorable match-up against stall, especially Lickilicky, but Lickilicky has lost it's main partner in Pyukumuku making Stall a far less viable and popular playstyle. Chatot thrives in this offensive meta due to it's few reliable checks on offense because of it's speed with a scarf and sheer power of Boomburst, only needing to worry about Mr. Mime and the rare Soundproof Bouffalant, as well as select special walls such Kecleon (though this doesn't appreciate switching into Chatter).
 
I agree with all of your other nominations, but I whole-heartedly disagree with this.

A- -> B+
Passive, passive, passive. Cleric is actually just a lose of Momentum. The meta is turning to be really offensive and Licki hates that, Knock off is pretty boring as well. It was one of the key of stall team but stall is just dead. If you use it to have a frosttom switch in with recovery why dont use Kecleon over this to have SR ? It lost a lot.
Specially-defensive Lickilicky remains the best special wall for stall, and is one of the best Rotom-Frost checks stall has access to (when holding Normalium Z). It is the everything-wall for stall, the Blissey of the tier, and our most reliable cleric. It absorbs Knock Off when using Normalium-Z (which should be the set used, BTW). It's passive, sure, but Lickilicky does its job (cleric/Wishpassing) the best in the tier. Comparing Lickilicky to Kecleon is an incorrect comparison, because Lickilicky is a stall 'mon, while Kecleon functions better on balance and offense due to its higher attacking stat. While I agree that stall is dead, most of the tier changes do not at all affect Lickilicky's viability. It remains a stall staple, that, along with being one of stall's best Rotom-Frost checks, special walls, and Wishpasser clerics who cannot be taunted, is totally the definition of an A- Pokemon.
 
This is my first post ever, sorry if it's formatted weirdly or something.
View attachment 129493
Quilava: Unranked --> C-/C/C+
Now before you disregard this post because I am not the most skilled player or because it's weird, hear me out.

Set:

Quilava @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Extrasensory
- Hidden Power [Grass]

With scarf this thing is faster than everything in the meta except like scarf Rotom, scarf Electivire and scarf Rapidash pretty much. Also, this thing hits extremely hard, with a base 150 stab eruption being able to 2hko and ohko a lot of mons.

252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Monferno: 162-191 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mr. Mime: 166-196 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chatot: 382-450 (130.3 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Quilava Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 296-352 (81.3 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Quilava Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 220 SpD Golem: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 522-614 (192.6 - 226.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 246-291 (87.5 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Fighting: 204-240 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 260-308 (81.7 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Quilava Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 156-184 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 312-368 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 888-1048 (276.6 - 326.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Quilava Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 624-734 (205.2 - 241.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(These calcs don't even account for rocks)
With this mon you're mostly gonna wanna spam eruption, Extrasensory is only to hit Mareanie and hp grass is so hit silv waters and any other water types not 2hkoed by eruption. pretty much you use this mon aggressively and double a lot and continuously force your opponent to sack things, pretty much how you'd play any other wall breaker like ursa.

Counters/checks to this thing include Grumpig, Muk, Vigo, Silv water, AV Kecleon, AV Bouffalant and most water types, among others, although some of these can be 2hkoed if whittled down with rocks and other damage. For example, eruption does 34% to 40% damage to cursetalk specially defensive Muk, which means it's not a switch in if rock are up and it's at 80% or less, and it's quite easy to whittle it down to that amount of health without forcing rest. Same goes for Vigo, AV Kecleon, AV Bouffalant, and Silv water, although Grumpig is a pretty hard counter to it unfortunately.

There is one more huge flaw to this mon I haven't mentioned yet, and it is stealth rocks. Not just is it weak to stealth rocks, but also because of the way the move eruption works, the less health Quilava has, the less damage eruption will do, and even after switching in to stealth rock just once, it loses a lot of its breaking power, because at 76% eruption has 114 base power rather than 150, which is still more than fire blast but it's a lot less damage nonetheless. It's a damage reduction of nearly 50% when you account for STAB. This means that you need to prioritize not having rocks on your side over using stealth rock, although that is also quite crucial as well as you may have seen from the last paragraph. Generally, hazard control is super important when this thing is on your team.

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-781257510 (Lost this one cause I missed 2 fire blasts in a row and also because I played horribly at the end, but Quilava put in a lot of work nonetheless)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-781485254 (Not that great of a replay)

These replays aren't the best, but I hope they can show how Quilava can function as a revenge killer/wallbreaker of sorts.

Edit: Just wanted to paste the team, although I doubt anyone would use it because it's pretty bad and I'm not the best teambuilder
https://pokepast.es/fe92d9b7b3818d9e
Nice post, pretty well formatted and such. Only problem with the nom is that it doesn't in any way prove Quilava's niche as a fire type scarfer/breaker over other higher ranked options like Monferno or Camerupt. Quilava is a rocks weak Eruption spammer outsped by some of the most devastating scarfers in the tier (Frosttom, Chatot, etc) which is a major problem first off. Secondly Quilava hits for literally no damage without Choice Specs vs builds using a proper fire resist (as all should), so its worthless against teams with solid defensive backbones. If you're looking for an Eruption spammer use Camerupt as its nuetral to SR, decently bulky, and easily abusable with correct support, and if you're looking for a fire type revenge killer Scarf monferno, Scarf/LO Simisear, and Scarf Oricorrio make for far surperior options as theyre all stronger, faster, or have better coverage options than Quilava.
 
Nice post, pretty well formatted and such. Only problem with the nom is that it doesn't in any way prove Quilava's niche as a fire type scarfer/breaker over other higher ranked options like Monferno or Camerupt. Quilava is a rocks weak Eruption spammer outsped by some of the most devastating scarfers in the tier (Frosttom, Chatot, etc) which is a major problem first off. Secondly Quilava hits for literally no damage without Choice Specs vs builds using a proper fire resist (as all should), so its worthless against teams with solid defensive backbones. If you're looking for an Eruption spammer use Camerupt as its nuetral to SR, decently bulky, and easily abusable with correct support, and if you're looking for a fire type revenge killer Scarf monferno, Scarf/LO Simisear, and Scarf Oricorrio make for far surperior options as theyre all stronger, faster, or have better coverage options than Quilava.
It is different than Monferno cause it's a special attacker and it has a way better speed tier than Camerupt meaning they're used differently, also it has more breaking power than Simisear, but yeah I see your point, I still think it deserves C-
 
It is different than Monferno cause it's a special attacker and it has a way better speed tier than Camerupt meaning they're used differently, also it has more breaking power than Simisear, but yeah I see your point, I still think it deserves C-
The problem I personally had with the set was the fact that it always 2HKO'd most things it hit, so while they can't switch in, if they get a free switchin or use priority before you hit you'll quickly be losing damage and you'll notice a lot of the 2HKOs can turn into 3HKOs pretty quickly. Make sure you consider the fact that they'll be dealing damage to you and you'll be taking stealth rock damage. Also, its defenses are abysmal making it really easy to dent with priority which is especially problematic rn with Monferno and Kecleon running around. Not to mention how weak it is when not using eruption. There's more consistent mons with less dependency on hazard removal who do more overall for your team. You get more bang for your buck from scarf Monferno or Simisear since they're both strong hitting fire types with high power stab that stays consistently strong. There's not a ton of reason to use Quilava with these things in mind, honestly.
 
It is different than Monferno cause it's a special attacker and it has a way better speed tier than Camerupt meaning they're used differently, also it has more breaking power than Simisear, but yeah I see your point, I still think it deserves C-
Simisear's coverage moves get the edge in power. Like I said earlier Scarf Quil is like a horrid mix of both a breaker and a revenge killer. So I listed Scarf Ferno and Camel as two better candidates for both roles.
 
This is the first time I nominated something so it might be formatted poorly.

Regigigas: Usually Useless --> C-/C/C+

The Set:
My Body is Regi (Regigigas) @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
- Frustration
- Knock Off

- I chose to put evs into defense and not attack as regigigas already has difficulty surviving for 5 turns to get rid of his ability and even with no attack evs after getting rid of slow start he deals a good amount of damage with base 160 attack and a stab frustration.

Regigigas appreciates Poliwrath leaving the tier as it was quite unpredictable with its special and physical fighting moves.

Regigigas has access to some pretty good crippling moves such as Thunder Wave and Knock Off and a natural bulk of 110/110/110 which allows him to get switch in to almost every non fighting physical attack and a lot of special non fighting type mons.I don't think any other mon has access to both thunder wave and knock off with that amount of bulk .Switching in to knock off is kinda tricky even if it isn't hitting for too much damage with slow start but most mons really appreciate their item. Thunder Wave stops alot off faster mons which can't break through Regigigas in one hit would be likely to switch into a slower bulkier mon which the speed drop doesn't affect as much although Thunder Wave is still annoying to switch in as and 1/4 chance to be paralyzed which could be followed up by a knock off which those bulkier mons want to keep their leftovers or their life orb which would make regigigas tanking abilities a little better. If something had switched into a thunder wave you can also go for a substitute to avoid status as this is one of his biggest weakness aside from his own ability. Another think is with his even bulk of 110/110/110 he can also work as a special wall instead. Knock off can also get you intel on the others mons set which is useful.

Although he has access to the knock off and thunder wave he has no form of recovery aside from leftovers which isn't reliable by any means. Another weakness for him is entry hazards specially toxic spikes and status. Regigigas does not want to get status on him as to reach his full power and he would need to stay on the field for 5 turns and poison or burn would get rid of his only way to recover which is leftovers as he doesn't have access to rest. Another problem is with slow start he doesnt outspeed those mons with toxic and can't get his substitute off which means you need to either para them first and take the poison which is what route I take most of the time as I have Lickilicky for heal bell and sometimes wish.

Regigigas appreciates something that can eat up toxic spikes as they are the most dangerous hazzard to him as he wants to stay in for 5 turns if possible. something like mareanie is nice as it covers his fighting weakness and toxic spike weakness. He needs alot of support to work well which is another weakness.

Counters: Fighting types,Rest,strong ground types, strong special attackers,

Calcs(With Slow Start as getting through this phase is the biggest problem)

(Strongest physical fighting attack I think with no boosts or z move)252 Atk Choice Band Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 284-336 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Slow Start Regigigas Frustration vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 210-247 (78 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(minus 1 from close combat)

252 SpA Grumpig Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regigigas: 188-222 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Slow Start Regigigas Knock Off vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 102-120 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO(also gets rid of the potential berry)

+4 0 Atk Vigoroth Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 184-217 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regigigas: 142-168 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery( No in special defense)

0 Atk Slow Start Regigigas Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 79-94 (32.7 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-782585756 (Status dangers mons like kec first)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-782577393 Para them first take status and heal bell)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-782627254 (Natural bulk with lots of chances to para)
 
Last edited:
This is the first time I nominated something so it might be formatted poorly.

Regigigas: Usually Useless --> C-/C/C+

The Set:
My Body is Regi (Regigigas) @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute
- Frustration
- Knock Off

- I chose to put evs into defense and not attack as regigigas already has difficulty surviving for 5 turns to get rid of his ability and even with no attack evs after getting rid of slow start he deal a good amount of damage with base 160 attack and a stab frustration.

Regigigas appreciates Poliwrath leaving the tier as it was quite unpredictable with its special and physical fighting moves.

Regigigas has access to some pretty good crippling moves such as Thunder Wave and Knock Off and a natural bulk of 110/110/110 which allows him to get switch in to almost every non fighting physical attack and a lot of special non type mons.I don't think any other mon has access to both thunder wave and knock off with that amount of bulk .Switching in to knock off is kinda tricky even if it isn't hitting for too much damage with slow start but most mons really appreciate their item. Thunder Wave stops alot off faster mons which can't break through Regigigas in one hit would be likely to switch into a slower bulkier mon which the speed drop doesn't affect as much although Thunder Wave is still annoying to switch in as and 1/4 chance to be paralyzed which could be followed up by a knock off which those bulkier mons want to keep their leftovers or their life orb which would make regigigas tanking abilities a little better. If something had switched into a thunder wave you can also go for a substitute to avoid status as this is one of his biggest weakness aside from his own ability. Another think is with his even bulk of 110/110/110 he can also work as a special wall instead. Knock off can also get you intel on the others mons set which is useful.

Although he has access to the knock off and thunder wave he has no form of recovery aside from leftovers which isn't reliable by any means. Another weakness for him is entry hazards specially toxic spikes and status. Regigigas does not want to get status on him as to reach his full power and he would need to stay on the field for 5 turns and poison or burn would get rid of his only way to recover which is leftovers as he doesn't have access to rest. Another problem is with slow start he doesnt outspeed those mons with toxic and can't get his substitute off which means you need to either para them first and take the poison which is what route I take most of the time as I have Lickilicky for heal bell and sometimes wish.

Regigigas appreciates something that can eat up toxic spikes as they are the most dangerous hazzard to him as he wants to stay in for 5 turns if possible. something like mareanie is nice as it covers his fighting weakness and toxic spike weakness. He needs alot of support to work well which is another weakness.

Counters: Fighting types,Rest,strong ground types, strong special attackers,

Calcs(With Slow Start as getting through this phase is the biggest problem)

(Strongest physical fighting attack I think with no boosts or z move)252 Atk Choice Band Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 284-336 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Slow Start Regigigas Frustration vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 210-247 (78 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(minus 1 from close combat)

252 SpA Grumpig Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regigigas: 188-222 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Slow Start Regigigas Knock Off vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 102-120 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO(also gets rid of the potential berry)

+4 0 Atk Vigoroth Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 184-217 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regigigas: 142-168 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery( No in special defense)

0 Atk Slow Start Regigigas Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 79-94 (32.7 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-782585756 (Status dangers mons like kec first)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-782577393 Para them first take status and heal bell)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-782627254 (Natural bulk with lots of chances to para)
This is actually quite good. I can actually see it moving up to C- potentially. Counter-arguments are also really nice. Keep up the good work.
 

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