Small Subjective Changes - Controversial Edits

Oglemi

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#1
Post small subjective changes in this thread. This thread is for subjective changes only. If you find an error that is syntactical, grammatical, typographical, orthographical, or technical please use the Small Changes thread

Subjective changes includes:
  • Removing excess move options from a move set.
  • Small additions to a move set.
  • A change in an EV Spread.
  • Any small additions or revisions to Other Options or Counters.
  • Any small change that is subjective in nature, but is too trivial to go in a peer edit.

Notice: To those with SCMS access, you do not need to post here. Simply make the change yourself directly and provide your reasoning in the "Edit Reason" box. If you make a change suggested by another user on the SCMS, please list your reasoning as "Small Changes Thread" so one of us can come and delete the appropriate posts.

Couple each post with a link to the relevant analysis or article you are requesting a change in. Most importantly, if you are suggesting something - back it up with reasoning. It doesn't help us to know that you think Farfetch'd should run 220 HP EVs; what helps us is knowing why you think Farfetch'd should run 220 HP EVs.
 
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MattL

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#2
http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/greninja/

There are no mentions about how the opponent does not know whether it's Protean or Ash when it's first sent out and how this can be taken advantage of. Whether this should be in Overview or Usage tips is up to discretion, but it's important to mention that the threat of it being Ash-Greninja and letting it transform makes the opponent's play slightly more predictable.

Also, Ash-Greninja must be male, so Protean Greninja should always be male since an observant player could notice that a Greninja is female and therefore Protean. This can probably be added in the Overview, and it should be added because revealing Greninja's ability before it attacks decreases its effectiveness.
 
#3
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/ev_manual
Add this to the Platinum EV training locations.
HP: Shellos and Gastrodon by surfing at Route 205 south, Idol Grace in Pokemon centers (Clefairy)
Physical Attack: Gyarados and Seaking by super rod at Twinleaf Town, Eterna City, and Celestic Town, Guitarist Arturo in Pokemon centers (Kricketune)
Special Attack: Golduck and Psyduck by surfing at Resort Area, Interviewers Roxi and Olie at Pokemon centers (Gardevoir and Magnezone)
Special Defense: Tentacruel and Mantyke by surfing at Route 223
Speed: Poke Kid Ariel at Pokemon centers (Pikachu and Raichu)
Route 224 should also be removed from the Platinum table because Tentacruel have only a 30% encounter chance there in Platinum.
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/emerald_ev_manual
Add this to the EV training locations.
Physical Attack: Carvanha and Sharpedo by super rod at Route 118
Speed: Smeargle by walking in cave at Artisan Cave, Golbat by surfing at Victory Road B2F
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/evs_ivs
Add this to the RSE EV training locations.
HP: Ditto, Whismur, Loudred by walking at Desert Underpass, Barboach and Whiscash by super rod at Meteor Falls 1F2R
Physical Attack: Carvanha and Sharpedo by super rod at Route 118
Physical defense: Geodude, Graveler, Torkoal at Magma Hideout (Emerald only)
Speed: Golbat by surfing at Victory Road
 
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Karxrida

Assault from the Stars
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#4
I know I'm wasting my time debating which Pokemon are better for playthroughs, but for some reason it bothers me to see stuff I think is wrong.
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/dpp_ingametiers
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/dpp_plat_ingametiers
In both of them, I want Sneasel to move up to middle tier. Weavile has very good offensive stats, and can get STAB night slash by level up and STAB ice punch by move tutor (though maybe not DP). Froslass is in the middle tier, and I see no reason why Weavile is worse than Froslass.
I want Tropius to be moved to middle tier in the Platinum page simply because it's such a good HM slave. For some reason, the page says it's "Available too late" despite the fact that you only need three gym badges to get it. Additionally, it was high tier on the RSE tiers, and I don't think it's different in Platinum. If someone does make this change, he/she should also change Budew's description, as it currently says, "outside of Turtwig, it is the best grass-type".
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/adv_rse_ingametiers
I want Zigzagoon and Wingull moved to middle tier. Their stats prevent them from being very useful. Zigzagoon is further hindered by the fact that it only has one STAB type, and Wingull is by the fact that it doesn't get any good flying STAB attacks.
This probably needs a dedicated discussion in Orange Islands, as that's where in-game tier stuff is ironed out and the changes you are requesting are significant. Contact one of the OI mods and ask if you can start a thread.

(I wanted to change RSE stuff too. For example, Feebas is way too much of a pain to get and evolve, and needs to drop a tier.)
 
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#5
http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/mienshao/

S
o, on Mienshao's Choice Scarf set (and it's only set), It has a slash after Stone Edge for Poison Jab. I'll just be blunt and say that it sounds like one of the worst things to lock yourself into using (aside from Hidden Power Ice or something silly like that). It only reasonably hits Primarina and Togekiss, but doesn't even OHKO either, and Togekiss has recovery, so it has less of a chance of Primarina to be in kill range of Poison Jab

252 Atk Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 216-256 (71.7 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, what does it do to Clefable?

252 Atk Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Thats just simply not worth it when you consider that UU has shit like Mega-Aerodactyl, Bisharp, Terrakion, Scizor,and really, almost anything that can take an unboosted, 80 power Poison-type move. Stone Edge isn't really that much better, but it at least allows Mienshao to kill things like Venomoth and Talonflame, which are both fairly threatening, fast Pokemon that it's nice to be able to revenge kill.

To sum up, deslash Poison Jab from Mienshao's Choice Scarf set and give it an Other Options mention if you really need to.
 

pokeisfun

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#6
A few changes should be made for Mew's Gen 7 UU Nasty Plot analysis:
  • Dazzling Gleam does not get a super effective hit on Bisharp as the set details imply; replacing that mention with Krookodile is probably a good idea
  • Giga Drain does not give pseudo recovery, probably what was meant was semi-reliable recovery or something like that
  • And since the only Unaware user Giga Drain can break is Quagsire, that bullet point should read something like "...break past Unaware Quagsire in addition..."
  • Since Necrozma is not UU, maybe replace the mention of it being a Shadow Ball target with Azelf or Latias
  • In the bullet starting with Dazzling Gleam, no comma needed after Bisharp (which again should be replaced)

I hope I was helpful!
 

Colonel M

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#7
Oglemi or other mods that have access to modify and delete posts:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ges-controversial-edits.3489980/#post-7305590 - as Karxidia said might be more worthwhile in Orange Islands. I will look into the issue a bit more later on since I usually help with in-game tier lists. Keep this for now.

I looked into these and my weights are as follows:

Sneasel to Mid - Denied. Sneasel is not very good because Ice Punch is absent outside of said tutor move. The tutor move requires Shards, which means digging in the underground and praying you get the right amount. For what it is worth I may humor Sneasel to Low Tier for Platinum only for that reason, but I kind of struggle to understand it much higher because it has a rather mediocre E4 and Gym performance. It only does average-ish to below average against Team Galactic since its good against Golbats but not really good against Croagunks and co.

Tropius to Mid - need to further investigate the Great Marsh mechanics in Platinum. Okay with Low for now personally.

Budew - Will investigate.

RSE in general needs a revamp. DHR and I were discussing this one day.

Zigzagoon to Mid - Agreed.

Wingull Down - Denied. Wingull's Attack is crap I admit, but Level 13 Wing Attack should be just in time for the second gym in most pts.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ges-controversial-edits.3489980/#post-7237060 - fixed from a while ago. This can be removed.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ges-controversial-edits.3489980/#post-7282927 - This is kind of taken care of in C&C. As the Male thing it's really minor and generally the "bluff" is really small. I don't remember the rulings on this particular scenario, but I don't think that noting a specific gender to bluff is really grounds to be added. Keep for now but need clarity on this particular scenario.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ges-controversial-edits.3489980/#post-7300217 - EVs and the like aren't really my thing. Not sure who specifically would deal with these nowadays (maybe Orange Island people with SS access?). Keep for now unless this has been updated.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ges-controversial-edits.3489980/#post-7363361 - Mew is no longer UU so this can be removed. I also took the liberty of removing the analysis. This can be removed.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ges-controversial-edits.3489980/#post-7373221 - Vertex revamped, taken care of. This can be removed.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ges-controversial-edits.3489980/#post-7444214 - Gary took care of this and I approved its change. This can be removed.
 
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Winry

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#8
Hello, I made some changes to this guide.

I didn't think there were enough changes to merit a full post in the guide forum, but there were enough and this is kind of an important article (at least IMO haha it's a good reference), so I asked Jellicent who suggested I make a post here so that people were aware and could maybe change stuff if I messed up !!

Introduction changes
Male/female
♀ ♂ Male and genderless Pokémon cannot pass on Poké Balls; the Pokémon in question needs to be female for the offspring to be in the same Ball. Ditto cannot pass on a Ball either. This means male-only Pokémon such as Tauros cannot be bred into a special Poké Ball in X and Y. The same goes for genderless Pokémon such as Beldum.

I added that males and genderless can now pass down Pokeballs if bred with Ditto (males and genderless) or the same species (males).

HA + apricorn balls (males and genderless can now pass down HAs)
Because hidden abilities can only be passed on by females with hidden abilities themselves, Pokémon with hidden abilities cannot legally be inside Safari Balls, Sport Balls, or the Apricorn Balls. This means that you cannot have a Speed Boost Sharpedo inside a Safari Ball or a Drought Ninetales inside a Love Ball.

Males and genderless now have a chance to pass on their hidden abilities. I also added a note that it is possible to have Alolan HA forms in a Safari Ball even though Safari is not available due to breeding.

Safari Balls
I added Lunatone to Mountain, Bronzor to Peak, and Solrock to Wasteland. They were previously not included because genderless could not pass down Pokeballs in previous gens.

Apricorn Balls
The full set of Apricorn Balls consist of Level Ball, Moon Ball, Lure Ball, Friend Ball, Love Ball, Fast Ball, and Heavy Ball. The collective name comes from what they are made of: Apricorns. Apricorns can only be found within HeartGold and SoulSilver, and these Balls can only be obtained from Kurt in Azalea Town after giving him the appropriate Apricorn(s).

- Apricorn balls are now available to SM so this section now only includes mons that are not able to be caught in SM but are available in HGSS.
- I removed Kanto mons with Alola forms because they do not need to be caught in HGSS to be in the ball, you can take any Geodude from ORAS and breed with an Alolan Geodude in an Apricorn Ball.
- I added Voltorb and Bronzor to Normal Pokemon, and then Baltoy (HG) to Swarm.
- Added section for Island Scan because the Pokemon here are not found in normal gameplay nor part of the Alola Dex so it may not be obvious that they can be found in the game

Dream Balls
- Removed the following part because through breeding it is now possible to get these Pokemon in DBHA:
<p>When Generation V introduced hidden abilities, numerous Pok&eacute;mon did not receive one but were still able to be found in the Dream World. Upon the release of Generation VI, several of these Pok&eacute;mon were given a hidden ability after all. These Pok&eacute;mon cannot have their hidden ability and be in a Dream Ball at the same time.</p>

- Added Magnemite, Voltorb, Rotom, Staryu, Lunatone, Solrock, Baltoy, Beldum, and Golett to their respective sections (genderless Pokemon that can now pass on DBHA)
- Added Pikachu, Kanto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh starters to a new section for Dream World Events (were male-only events, but males can now pass down DBs).

Dream Radar
- Added Beldum, Bronzor, Porygon,

Special Cases
While there's nothing out of the ordinary with Poké Balls such as Great Ball and Luxury Ball, as they can be passed on to most Pokémon, there are some Pokémon that cannot be in these regular Balls at all. These Pokémon consist of starter Pokémon and fossil Pokémon, as they always come in Poké Balls. However, there are special instances where you can actually obtain some of these Pokémon in regular Balls.

Pokémon Colosseum
In Pokémon Colosseum you have the ability to catch Bayleef, Quilava, and Croconaw inside any Poké Ball you can find in Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald, FireRed, and LeafGreen. This means that you can legally breed Chikorita, Cyndaquil, and Totodile into Great Balls, Ultra Balls, Net Balls, Nest Balls, Timer Balls, Repeat Balls, Dive Balls, Luxury Balls, and Premier Balls in X and Y.

Dream World
When you catch Pokémon from the Dream World in the Entree Forest, the Dream Ball isn't your only Ball option. You can use any Poké Ball you have in your bag, which means you can catch quite a few Pokémon, that can only be inside Poké Balls when obtained elsewhere, in any regular Ball that you can find in Black and White (2). These Pokémon are Omanyte, Kabuto, Aerodactyl, Lileep, Anorith, Cranidos, Shieldon, and Tirtouga.

With the release of ORAS, the following Pokémon, in addition to fossil Pokémon previously mentioned, can only be bred with their hidden ability and be in one of the other regular Poké Balls if the original female was caught in the Dream World. This is because they are not able to be caught with their hidden ability in Generation V or Generation VI through normal gameplay.
<h4>Pok&eacute;mon</h4>
<div class="mons neutral">
<p>Basculin, Burmy, Hippopotas, Kangaskhan, Karrablast, Qwilfish, Sentret, Shelmet, Snorlax</p>
<img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/basculin.png" alt="Basculin" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/burmy.png" alt="Burmy" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/hippopotas.png" alt="Hippopotas" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/kangaskhan.png" alt="Kangaskhan" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/karrablast.png" alt="Karrablast" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/qwilfish.png" alt="Qwilfish" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/sentret.png" alt="Sentret" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/shelmet.png" alt="Shelmet" /> <img src="/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/snorlax.png" alt="Snorlax" />
</div>

- Colosseum: Because of Island Scan, the Johto starters can be in any Pokeball beside Sport or Safari now.
- Dream World: Added Porygon to the paragraph part
- Added section for Friend Safaris to highlight the fact that the Kalos starters can be in regular balls (not just Poke)

Was a bit confused on the last paragraph about Pokemon not being able to be in DB and HA at the same time?

Other
- Added section to include that Heavy Beldums are illegal, which may seem obvious but this is only there b/c they did circulate for a while

To-do
- Add Sport and Dream ball icons to match rest of article
- Shedinja
- Beast Ball section?
 
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Theorymon

I see what you did there!
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#10
Seems fine to me. Maybe mention that you only get one Apricorn Ball in SM of each outside of special events.

Also, pardon my ignorance, but how do you get Apricorn balls and Dusk Balls on Johto starters? I was under the impression it was just any ball you could have in Gen 3 that was legal.
 
#11
Seems fine to me. Maybe mention that you only get one Apricorn Ball in SM of each outside of special events.

Also, pardon my ignorance, but how do you get Apricorn balls and Dusk Balls on Johto starters? I was under the impression it was just any ball you could have in Gen 3 that was legal.
Gen 7 island scan mons provide johto starters as capturable pokemon

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/QR_Scanner
 

Xen

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#12
Yeah I second making a small note that there is only 1 copy of each Apricorn Ball in S/M outside of event distributions. But otherwise looks fine to me.
 

LegoFigure11

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#13
Was a bit confused on the last paragraph about Pokemon not being able to be in DB and HA at the same time?
I'm pretty sure that this was referring to the fact that prior to Gen 7 males couldn't pass down ball, and because there were the male-only events, the Pokémon bred from those events couldn't be DBHA. Looks good though, well done!
 
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shiny finder

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#14
Only things I could think of:

Magnemite can be added for the Safari Ball in HGSS (Peak, Wasteland).
The Tapus can't be in a Heavy Ball as well, if you want to include that with the bit about the Beldum.
The Stantler mini-sprite is missing from the Safari Ball Emerald Exclusives list.

The Beast Ball section would certainly fit in (or at least a mention of them), so I think adding that is a good idea if you feel up to it! Great work ^_^
 

Winry

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#15
I'm pretty sure that this was referring to the fact that prior to Gen 5 males couldn't pass down ball, and because there were the male-only events, the Pokémon bred from those events couldn't be DBHA. Looks good though, well done!
So this can be removed correct?

Sorry it took a few more days but I updated it so far, I will add Beast Balls separately later in the week!!
 

LegoFigure11

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#16
So this can be removed correct?

Sorry it took a few more days but I updated it so far, I will add Beast Balls separately later in the week!!
Whoops, meant gen 7 in the post that you quoted, not gen 5; only just saw that now. And yes, parents of both genders can pass down ball now so you don't need that section any more :)
 

Winry

Super University-Level Napper
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#17
Whoops, meant gen 7 in the post that you quoted, not gen 5; only just saw that now. And yes, parents of both genders can pass down ball now so you don't need that section any more :)
I have removed that.

This guide should be done now. Made some last changes including:
- Adding more Pokemon to the "Normal Pokemon" subsection of Apricorn Ball section because I forgot that some are also only obtainable in them if caught in SM (ex. Finneon, Trubbish, etc). I did not separate the HGSS and SM section because I would assume someone would look up which location they needed anyway and would therefore determine which game they needed.
- Added SOS to Apricorn section; since this is not a "normal" way of finding mons, I thought it deserved its own section
- Mentioning only 1 apricorn ball per save file in SM
- Adding more images throughout the guide (ex. a Sport Ball sprite underneath the header)
- Added Beast Ball section with Normal, SOS, and Island Scan subsections
- Added section for Shedinja since it's possible to get it in non-Pokeballs in gen 3
- Finally a section for event-only forms, seems unnecessary now but undoubtedly if Dusk Lycanroc is event-only someone's gonna wonder about it

Soo it should actually be done until USUM. (also sorry TDP for bothering you about this today :p)
 

Dark Ray

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#18
Might be late but w/e.
Re: special ball list.

HG/SS Safari Zone is missing Beldum (Forest), and Metang (Mountain).
Apricorn ball Bronzor should be moved from "Normal" to "Radio Sound".
"Normal" list for Apricorn balls is missing Eevee (SM only).
"Normal" list for Apricorn balls shouldn't list Gible and Mareanie (SOS only)
"Normal" list for Apricorn balls lists Turtonator twice.
"Normal" list for Apricorn balls lists Kangaskhan, Psyduck, and Skarmory despite them being available in both HG/SS and S/M. (I don't see why it only lists mons exclusive to a single generation but might as well be consistent one way or the other)
Dream World is missing Gothorita (Event).
"Normal" list for Beast balls should not list Aerodactyl (unobtainable) or Garchomp (SOS only).

And a slightly bigger change:
Form Differences
With the release of Generation VI and numerous events, all breedable Pokémon can now legally have their hidden abilities. This does not, however, mean that all Pokémon with form differences can be bred in any regular Ball and have their hidden ability.

In Generation VI, seasons were removed, but the form differences of Deerling and Sawsbuck were preserved through breeding. In Generation V, Deerling is able to be obtained with its hidden ability only as a gift Pokémon in a Poké Ball. Therefore, the Summer, Autumn, and Winter forms can only be in a normal Poké Ball if they have their hidden ability. Only the Spring form can have its hidden ability and be in a different type of regular Poké Ball because it is able to be caught in Friend Safaris and as a hidden Pokémon via the DexNav.

The Flabébé and Pumpkaboo families are similar. Flabébé can only have its hidden ability, and therefore be bred in different Balls, if it is of the Blue, Red, or Yellow Flower form. Pumpkaboo can only have its hidden ability and be in a different Ball if it is Average Sized. Both of these Pokémon are only able to be caught with their respective hidden abilities in Friend Safaris.
First paragraph needs to be rewritten for 7th gen, and it would be nice if someone could confirm but Deerling forms and Super Size Pumpkaboo should no longer have restrictions on HA+Special ball in 7th gen (Flabebe still does though).
 
#19
I was just looking through analyses while playing Gold on VC, and TVtropes'd my way over to Electabuzz in RSE. I noticed that the SubPunch suggests Adamant despite running Thunderbolt and putting 208 EVs in SpA. This is in both OU and UU: http://www.smogon.com/dex/rs/pokemon/electabuzz/. This set runs 84 Atk / 208 SpA / 216 Spe. I haven't done proper competitive stuff in quite some time, let alone ADV, but I fiddled with some numbers to make a more efficient EV spread

With a Lonely nature and 84 Atk / 68 Def / 140 SpA / 216 Spe you get the same stats except for an extra 11 points into SpA. Mild is slightly more efficient, with 172 Atk / 68 Def / 54 SpA / 216 Spe and 12 extra points in SpA. Hasty seems to be best, with 172 Atk / 68 Def / 162 SpA / 108 Spe and 16 points in SpA.

While the Hasty set is just an objective improvement, I suspect that the 68 points in Def aren't vital. I'd say that you'd either choose Hasty or Naive (I went for -Def as it requires fewer EVs to counteract the hindering nature). Then 172 Atk / 230 SpA / 108 Spe gives the same Attack and Speed, with 33 extra points in SpA. Alternatively 172 Atk / 98 SpA / 240 Spe gives the same Atk and SpA, with 36 extra points in Spe.

I've bolded what I think are the viable choices. There's probably something more optimal there, hitting certain speed values for instance (which could be different between OU and UU). I don't know what's ideal competitively, I just noticed something a touch mathematically inefficient, even if no one ever uses these sets ever...
 

Bughouse

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#20
Tagging Hogg to say what ev spread would be best for sub punch electabuzz in adv uu. Can update the ou one too, not that anyone uses buzz in ou.
 

GMars

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#22
I don't think that's necessary because the importable provides the set as non shiny, and if someone does change their Chansey/Blissey to shiny, it will say that there is an event incompatibility.
While I also don't think it's necessary, this applies more to non-Wish Chansey/Blissey. If it's shiny, you know it doesn't have Wish, like how Protean Greninja should never be female because then you know it's not Ash-Greninja
 

Kris

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#23
While I also don't think it's necessary, this applies more to non-Wish Chansey/Blissey. If it's shiny, you know it doesn't have Wish, like how Protean Greninja should never be female because then you know it's not Ash-Greninja
touché
 
#25
Not sure if the right thread for this, if not please correct me. I posted this before in the Smogon Simple Questions thread but that was ignored:/


I wanted to point out an inconsistency in the Strategy Dex on the Smogon site, which may confuse new players.

In the section Play Restrictions under OU under Formats it says
Players cannot use Pokémon from the Uber tier.
[...]
Players cannot use the following items:
However, in the Play Restrictions of UU, RU and NU it simply says
Players cannot use Pokémon designated Uber, OU, BL, UU, BL2,RU, or BL3 (this one is from NU obviously)

So the inconsistency is that in OU the banned mega stones are mentioned explicitly, while in UU, RU, NU and PU they are not. Since Mega Gengar and co. are Uber, them not being allowed is already captured in the sentence "Players cannot use Pokémon from the Uber tier.", so there is no need to mention them separately. And if you do want to mention them separately, for instance because people might not understand that a mega evolution can be tiered differently than its base form, then you should do it in all formats.

BTW, this problem is also present on the gen 6 part of the strategy dex to a much worse degree (for example on the UU section there is an arbitrary subset of the mega stones you are not allowed to use, since for example Mawilite is missing, while in the NU section Mawilite is mentioned), so maybe that should be fixed as well.

Also in the gen 7 dex, the Ability Restrictions differs a lot per page (PU,NU,RU,UU,OU) and not just because different abilities are banned in different tiers. For example, in UU shadow tag and arena trap are missing, while in RU and NU not even one ability is mentioned being banned.
 

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