Smogon Premier League 2 Format

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#76
My incredibly casual observation of things the past few years...

The online Pokemon scene has exploded during the DPP metagame and grew player base substantially. While it's true many may have been playing since earlier generations, I bet it's safe to say that a majority of the active users today first got exposed to real competition in DPP.

It's easy to stick with the metagame that gave you your most memorable battles and the one you have invested the most time in. It sucks when something replaces it. But I challenge you to find any successful video game series that has a majority of people clinging to the predecessors.

Times change. If you don't adapt you will get old and obsolete like me.

I leave you with an anecdotal reference. I'll be back in six months for a semi-annual post.

And bring back Mewtwo, Tobybro
Way before Rayquaza
There was Sandslash and Chansey.
And Tauros was still in OU.
The kids on the internet... they tell him that he's uncool.
Cause he's still preoccupied with old school RBY.
 

zfs

Everything old is new again
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#77
It's easy to stick with the metagame that gave you your most memorable battles and the one you have invested the most time in. It sucks when something replaces it. But I challenge you to find any successful video game series that has a majority of people clinging to the predecessors.
The people who make updated rosters every year for Tecmo Super Bowl?
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
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#78
Does the general public think they're as important as each other? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you; I'm just asking, since nobody has really elaborated on what the SPL is for. Is it for variety, is it for demonstrating knowledge of different metagames, or is it for something else?
General public thinks VGC is more important =P Pokemon.com gets considerably more traffic than Smogon.com.

This thread is just so people know the format for the upcoming drafts I think. Also to ask questions if there are any.

And your reply to Smith is somewhat confusing. Not sure what our simulators have to do with it at all... nor do I understand how the VGC (or Smogon) rules don't affect how people play significantly...
 

Engineer Pikachu

Good morning, you bastards!
is a Contributor Alumnus
#79
That was mainly me disagreeing that the VGC heavily affects how people play. To basically sum that up (my thoughts were a bit muddled while writing), VGC doesn't really affect the play of any non-Doubles metagame, and Doubles players who really disagree with VGC rules will just play how they normally play.

I concur with your statement that Pokemon.com gets more traffic than Smogon.com, but that's almost like comparing apples and oranges. Pokemon.com has a lot more you can do on it (e.g. games, pre-ordering, TCG), whereas Smogon is basically articles, analyses, and the forum (nothing against Smogon). Also, is there any quantitative data that shows that a) VGC is the fastest growing metagame, and b) the general public believes that VGC is the most important one, if the Pokemon/Smogon comment doesn't count?
 

drcossack

I'm everywhere, you ain't never there
#80
That was mainly me disagreeing that the VGC heavily affects how people play. To basically sum that up (my thoughts were a bit muddled while writing), VGC doesn't really affect the play of any non-Doubles metagame, and Doubles players who really disagree with VGC rules will just play how they normally play.

I concur with your statement that Pokemon.com gets more traffic than Smogon.com, but that's almost like comparing apples and oranges. Pokemon.com has a lot more you can do on it (e.g. games, pre-ordering, TCG), whereas Smogon is basically articles, analyses, and the forum (nothing against Smogon). Also, is there any quantitative data that shows that a) VGC is the fastest growing metagame, and b) the general public believes that VGC is the most important one, if the Pokemon/Smogon comment doesn't count?
The fact that both Juniors and Seniors draw a large number of participants should qualify - the East Coast VGC stops in '09 and '10 had several hundred people...and that was just for Seniors. You should be able to get field size counts for the other regionals in their respective threads, but I'm not about to look at 2 AM.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
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#81
Our equivalent of a championship, the Smogon Tournament just hit 384 entrants while the Senior Division (13+, same as Smogon's requirements) of the Newark Regional Qualifier last year hit 768 and had people turned away due to there being a cap. Other regionals around the country had 300 - 400 entrants a piece. Each VGC has been considerably larger than the last although that's really due to TPCi allowing more entrants each year. The smaller sizes in previous years were due more to location and artificial attendance caps (maybe fire hazard).

This year there are rumours they're expanding further and adding even more locations as well.

VGC doesn't affect Smogon OU and Smogon OU doesn't affect VGC. That is true. That doesn't really affect SPL though.
 

Athenodoros

Official Smogon Know-It-All
#82
Can someone who was involved in the decision about metagames tell us how they were chosen over others? Quite apart from the current debate, I'm curious about what attributes where given priority in selection. Popularity? Getting a Variety of metagame characteristics?
 
#83
You realize the simplest solution for this is a poll. If a majority of Smogon thinks we should be playing dpp Ubers, then why shouldn't we?

I personally think there should be 1 spot for VGC11 and one spot for either LC or DPP ubers. Im not going to bother arguing since all the arguments have already been worn out.

edit: firestorm, Im sure we had more than over 400 people signup for the Smogon TOurnament, but many were turned away due to not being well known. Im sure many others decided not to sign up because they saw that rule. If the VGC's had a rule similar I doubt a single location would have over 400 people sign up and get in.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#84
Can someone who was involved in the decision about metagames tell us how they were chosen over others? Quite apart from the current debate, I'm curious about what attributes where given priority in selection. Popularity? Getting a Variety of metagame characteristics?
I am not a TD and was not involved in the decision-making process. However, I did see some of the updates and here is what I could tell from the knowledge I had:

2x Most Recent OU metagame
2x Most Recent VGC metagame
^Those are considered the primary metagames of Smogon moving forward.

1x Most Recent UU metagame
1x Most Recent Ubers metagame
1x of each old OU metagame

We can't support every metagame ever made obviously but we can make an effort to support the official ones of at least the most recent generation and the most played of past generations. VGC is hard to support old metagames for as instead of every 4 years, it changes annually. Maybe next year we'll have LC as well!

Again, not saying this is why they were chosen, but from the knowledge I have, that's how it looks.

edit: firestorm, Im sure we had more than over 400 people signup for the Smogon Tournament, but many were turned away due to not being well known. Im sure many others decided not to sign up because they saw that rule. If the VGC's had a rule similar I doubt a single location would have over 400 people sign up and get in.
And if it weren't for the cost, I'd attend all of regionals and LCQs. Both competitions have barriers to entry. I also wasn't trying to say VGC is or isn't more popular really. I'm just saying many players on Smogon are stuck inside this exclusive club they've built and are neglecting that there's an outside world.

You'll notice nobody who has actually attended a VGC event is fighting this. Just those who haven't.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
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#87
are we doing this tourny to promote diversity with all our tiers or to please our player base in the website? if the latter then i think a poll will cut this discussion if possible. if its the former then there's absolutely no point in arguing then because 2 vcg slots seems to be permanently decided at this point.
 
#90
We can keep catering to our exclusive club or we can recognize that we've been ignoring the fastest growing metagame for the past 3 years and try to fix that. Fortunately, Smogon administration has decided to do the latter.
If by "exclusive club" you mean the entire Smogon playerbase, then I don't see any reason to stop catering to that? Once again let's reiterate the point that this is a Smogon tournament. And let's face it, the actual VGC metagame isn't what's growing, but rather competitive Pokemon outside of the internet.

I don't want to turn this into "Smogon and VGC", but whatever. If you want to promote the VGC metagame on Smogon, shoving it down people's throats in an official tournament isn't the way to go. The VGC subforum in UT is pretty much void of any competitive discussion, there aren't any articles or analyses on-site for help, and the VGC ladder on our server is dead... what's a Smogon player wanting to get into VGC supposed to do? Get the metagame out of the water in terms of popularity first before saying it deserves as much attention as standard OU in tournaments. Communities like LC worked their ass off to get their metagame recognized by Smogon and get nothing for it, why should VGC get the same treatment as a metagame as huge as OU for doing basically nothing? I'm all for VGC, I just don't see how it deserves two damn slots in its current state.

Our equivalent of a championship, the Smogon Tournament just hit 384 entrants while the Senior Division (13+, same as Smogon's requirements) of the Newark Regional Qualifier last year hit 768 and had people turned away due to there being a cap. Other regionals around the country had 300 - 400 entrants a piece. Each VGC has been considerably larger than the last although that's really due to TPCi allowing more entrants each year. The smaller sizes in previous years were due more to location and artificial attendance caps (maybe fire hazard).
General public thinks VGC is more important =P Pokemon.com gets considerably more traffic than Smogon.com.
Now you're just being bias. You can't compare a sign-up thread on the internet to something Nintendo promotes officially, where signups lasted longer and were open to basically anyone. Also most competitive communities use Smogon's tiers and rules, so the "general public" does find Smogon more important than VGC.

You'll notice nobody who has actually attended a VGC event is fighting this. Just those who haven't.
Well obviously those that support the smaller metagame aren't going to be against promoting it are they?
 

drcossack

I'm everywhere, you ain't never there
#91
I don't want to turn this into "Smogon and VGC", but whatever. If you want to promote the VGC metagame on Smogon, shoving it down people's throats in an official tournament isn't the way to go. The VGC subforum in UT is pretty much void of any competitive discussion, there aren't any articles or analyses on-site for help, and the VGC ladder on our server is dead... what's a Smogon player wanting to get into VGC supposed to do? Get the metagame out of the water in terms of popularity first before saying it deserves as much attention as standard OU in tournaments. Communities like LC worked their ass off to get their metagame recognized by Smogon and get nothing for it, why should VGC get the same treatment as a metagame as huge as OU for doing basically nothing? I'm all for VGC, I just don't see how it deserves two damn slots in its current state.
The subforum is dead because we discuss things privately on IRC, and there's another site/PO server dedicated to it. You have to remember that VGC is a competition with real $ prizes on the line - the players don't like showing off their teams or revealing their strategies. If they do end up having to do either/both, they will use a gimmick team.

As for VGC doing basically "nothing" - it is Nintendo's OFFICIAL metagame, and it's definitely more so than singles OU, since, y'know, we wouldn't HAVE this game without Nintendo/Gamefreak/TPCi. More than that - it's a chance to meet the people we talk to on here on a daily basis. It even got DM, who never played a pokemon game before Nats 2010, to find a ROM of (LeafGreen?) and start playing it.

Now you're just being bias. You can't compare a sign-up thread on the internet to something Nintendo promotes officially, where signups lasted longer and were open to basically anyone. Also most competitive communities use Smogon's tiers and rules, so the "general public" does find Smogon more important than VGC.
Signups for individual VGC tournaments did not last that long - half an hour to an hour (or was it an hour-2 hours) last year IIRC.

And no, in fact, the general public does NOT find Smogon more important than VGC, if you want to be pedantic about it. The inexperienced players in VGC (which is a majority of them) may know about Smogon, but they likely don't care about it, and apparently, neither does Nintendo. VGC/Nintendo tournaments do not use singles, and they haven't for years; RBY events used 3v3 (aka Stadium Mode), but that was the only option available at the time. JAA in '06 was doubles. If there was one in '07 (I believe there was, but I cannot recall the name), it used doubles. VGS (aka VGC '08) was doubles. VGC '09 was doubles. VGC '10 was doubles. VGC '11 is doubles. Are you getting the picture here?
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
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#92
If by "exclusive club" you mean the entire Smogon playerbase, then I don't see any reason to stop catering to that? Once again let's reiterate the point that this is a Smogon tournament. And let's face it, the actual VGC metagame isn't what's growing, but rather competitive Pokemon outside of the internet.

I don't want to turn this into "Smogon and VGC", but whatever. If you want to promote the VGC metagame on Smogon, shoving it down people's throats in an official tournament isn't the way to go. The VGC subforum in UT is pretty much void of any competitive discussion, there aren't any articles or analyses on-site for help, and the VGC ladder on our server is dead... what's a Smogon player wanting to get into VGC supposed to do? Get the metagame out of the water in terms of popularity first before saying it deserves as much attention as standard OU in tournaments. Communities like LC worked their ass off to get their metagame recognized by Smogon and get nothing for it, why should VGC get the same treatment as a metagame as huge as OU for doing basically nothing? I'm all for VGC, I just don't see how it deserves two damn slots in its current state.
Currently? Leave Smogon because of attitudes like yours which kept anyone from wanting to participate in the community. I'd personally not have to make them do that considering this is supposed to be a competitive Pokemon community. As for the rest of your post, that seems to be just ignorance which is understandable as much of the "working their ass off" was done in private for VGC.

Giving it two slots instead of one isn't "shoving it down your throat". 2 out of 10 slots in 1 out of 4 official tournaments isn't "shoving it down your throat". If you want your Singles matches, the other 3 current official tournaments are 100% Singles. They're even 100% OU. What's more, 2/4 of them are the most recent generation of OU only!
 

Solace

audere est facere
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#93
At first I was against this [the 2 VGC slots], but now I'm more or less seeing this as an opportunity to get into all different metagames. I might try out ADV, and I've already done some VGC playing and got into it 2 days ago or whatever and I've already won a tournament on their server. I think that 2 slots might still be too much compared to other standard metagames we all know and are familiar with, but at least its worth a try playing it.
 

B-Lulz

Now Rusty and Old
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#94
To be honest the only reason I disagree now with 2 VGC spots is the size of the VGC online community. Maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places but barring Skarmbliss server I have only found 1 VGC match today. Idk I must just be a dumbass and looking in the wrong places...
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
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#95
To be honest the only reason I disagree now with 2 VGC spots is the size of the VGC online community. Maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places but barring Skarmbliss server I have only found 1 VGC match today. Idk I must just be a dumbass and looking in the wrong places...
You were looking in the right place, you just decided to not count it in your VGC match count...
 
#96
I know posting in this topic is basically pointless as of now because the format is set, but it's very obvious that this tournament is not meant to cater to the mass of smogon but rather to all the diversity in the community. And if this is the case, why have two slots for anything at all? Why not take those two slots and put them into metagames like DPP Ubers or BW LC? There are a decent number people that play those metagames and if we want to incorporate a wide arrange of the community as possible then why not?
 
#97
Well, it's really a given to have two slots for the most current OU metagame, but other than that I agree that the second VGC slot should be given to a different meta. Although it seems like Ness is really Adamant (lol bad pun) about it.
 
#98
The subforum is dead because we discuss things privately on IRC, and there's another site/PO server dedicated to it. You have to remember that VGC is a competition with real $ prizes on the line - the players don't like showing off their teams or revealing their strategies. If they do end up having to do either/both, they will use a gimmick team.
Why would they bother using anything besides gimmick teams for SPL then?

For the record, I was a little "lolwut" at first seeing two VGC 11 slots, but now I'm ok with it. After seeing your comment though I was just wondering what the incentive is for people to use their best teams at SPL. I understand there is a respect thing for SPL (especially since ladder peaks mean practically nothing to top battlers), but still.
 
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