Snorlax (OU) [QC 2/2] [GP 2/2]

[wyc2333]

[OVERVIEW]

Snorlax is a special wall with a great defensive and offensive presence thanks to its Curse set as well as its access to Self-Destruct, as taking out an extra opposing Pokemon or a sweeper that wants to overpower it can be crucial for a game. While it does have some weaknesses, namely mediocre Defense, low Speed, and a vulnerability to Spikes and sand, its strong points make it the force that defines ADV OU.

[SET]
name: CurseLax
move 1: Curse
move 2: Rest
move 3: Return / Body Slam
move 4: Shadow Ball / Earthquake / Hidden Power Bug / Hidden Power Steel
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Careful
evs: 144 HP / 96 Atk / 132 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Curse Snorlax can be a secondary check for special attackers such as Zapdos because it is usually buffeted by Sandstorm and doesn't have a reliable way to restore its HP. If Curse Snorlax is the last Pokemon on your team, there will be a strong possibility that you can make a comeback, as Snorlax can boost up and beat down phazers such as Skarmory, Suicune, and the rare Steelix, which can no longer use Whirlwind or Roar against it.

Curse and Rest are obligatory moves. Since Curse Snorlax usually works as a late-game Pokemon and doesn't care about spreading paralysis as much as KOing the foe, Return is generally chosen. However, Body Slam is still an option for overall utility. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, and Magneton. Shadow Ball hits Gengar, Celebi, and Starmie for super effective damage. Hidden Power Bug strikes Celebi and Tyranitar. Hidden Power Steel not only hits Gengar but also has the benefit of hitting Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Sleep Talk prevents Snorlax from being helpless during its two turns of Rest, though it's a niche option because of sleep turns resetting if Sleep Talk is used before switching out. Shadow Ball + Earthquake provides wide coverage, but Suicune can set up on and take out Snorlax lacking a STAB move faster than Snorlax can kill it, and even other special attackers such as Zapdos and Moltres can score critical hits if Snorlax spends too many turns attempting to take them out.

Immunity is generally the preferred ability because it allows Snorlax to deal with Toxic users such as Blissey, Zapdos, Magneton, Milotic, and Porygon2, thus becoming a status pivot. Thick Fat has its niche because Moltres does a lot of damage to Snorlax with its Fire-type STAB moves, but Toxic is more common.

The specified EVs allow Snorlax to guarantee a 3HKO on near-maximum physically bulky Suicune with +1 Return after sandstorm damage. 144 HP and 136 Special Defense EVs help Snorlax wall special attackers such as Zapdos and Suicune better. If your Snorlax runs Body Slam, you may wish to consider running 116 Attack EVs and an Adamant nature to OHKO 4 HP Dugtrio. If you need a better matchup against physical attacks, Impish will be an ideal nature.


Team Options
=========
Above all, Magneton is almost always paired with Curse Snorlax for its ability to take out Skarmory, Magneton, and a weakened or Choice-locked Metagross. Magneton can also run Rain Dance or Sunny Day, thus letting Snorlax avoid being buffeted by sandstorm. A Pursuit user such as Tyranitar traps Gengar, thus creating a juncture for Snorlax without Shadow Ball to sweep late-game. Dugtrio matches well with this set, being able to trap Celebi and Heracross as well as Steel-types such as Metagross, Jirachi, and Magneton. Psychic-types such as Celebi and Claydol are common teammates. The former's Baton Pass can let trappers, namely Magneton and Dugtrio, work more easily, while the latter can not only remove Spikes with Rapid Spin but also act as a pivot for Electric-type attacks that would normally wear down Snorlax.

[SET]
name: Utility Lax
move 1: Self-Destruct
move 2: Body Slam / Return
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Focus Punch / Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Adamant
evs: 92 HP / 116 Atk / 144 Def / 144 SpD / 12 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
STAB Self-Destruct is Snorlax's strongest attack, powerful enough to even damage Rock- or Steel- types. Snorlax usually uses Body Slam with this set, especially if it runs standard non-maximum Attack EVs, because paralyzing Suicune, Tyranitar, Metagross, and Skarmory is quite nice. Return has extra power, and if you invest enough Attack EVs, it can 2HKO some versions of Zapdos. Shadow Ball hits Gengar super effectively if your team doesn't have Pursuit support and does good damage to Celebi and Starmie. Focus Punch OHKOes Tyranitar on the switch or when it clicks Dragon Dance and does good damage to Skarmory, though you should be wary of Drill Peck variants. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, and Magneton. Curse + Self-Destruct deals with Skarmory, Tyranitar, and Metagross. Counter is a decent answer to physical attackers such as Metagross.

The specified EVs allow Snorlax to guarantee a KO on 4 HP Dugtrio with Body Slam. The Speed investment makes Snorlax just faster than paralyzed 394 Speed Pokemon, namely Aerodactyl and Jolteon. If your team wants Snorlax to hit Skarmory harder with Focus Punch, you may want more Attack investment. 24 HP and 184 Special Defense EVs are needed to take Modest 252 Special Attack Zapdos's Thunderbolt and +1 Modest Suicune's Hydro Pump more comfortably.

Team Options
=========
Snorlax without Focus Punch is best suited to a Magneton-aided balance or offense team, especially Magneton-based physical spam. With Hidden Power Fire, Magneton can trap Earthquake Forretress more reliably. If Snorlax runs Focus Punch, it should generally be used on offensive teams without Spikes. Flying-types such as Salamence and Gyarados are great partners because Snorlax appreciates their Fighting-type resistance. If Snorlax can remove its typical counters such as Metagross and Tyranitar, it will be easier to sweep. Pursuit users such as Tyranitar combine with Snorlax excellently, being able to trap Gengar, thus letting Snorlax give up Shadow Ball and use Self-Destruct more comfortably. Although Houndoom is a niche Pokemon, it removes defensive Celebi, which is a solid answer to Snorlax without Hidden Power Bug.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Fire Blast is a traditional answer to Steel-types such as Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross, and Magneton. Brick Break is not as powerful as Focus Punch, but it is an immediate answer against Tyranitar. Thunder is a powerful choice for combatting Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Cloyster, and Skarmory, and it provides a great paralysis rate. However, the accuracy is rather low, so it may mandate rain support.

Checks and Counters
===================
Most counters depend on Snorlax's set.

Skarmory, Metagross, and defensive Celebi are some of the biggest checks to Snorlax. Skarmory can come in, set up Spikes, and phaze Snorlax. If Snorlax doesn't have Earthquake, it won't do much damage to Metagross. Without Hidden Power Bug or a boost from Curse, Snorlax cannot easily 2HKO Celebi, which means it can outstall Snorlax with Leech Seed and Recover. It also shrugs off Body Slam paralysis thanks to Natural Cure and Heal Bell. To prevent itself from losing to a Snorlax with Rest, Celebi can set up Calm Mind and take down Snorlax with Psychic, as long as it is safe with Recover. However, it needs to be wary of Self-Destruct.

Besides Skarmory and Metagross, other Steel- or Rock-types resist Snorlax's STAB attacks. Snorlax without Earthquake will be setup fodder for Calm Mind Jirachi, but Wish Jirachi can only reliably deal with the Curse non-Earthquake set. Under sand, Magnet Magneton can make Snorlax use Rest repeatedly and beat the utility set if it's not running Earthquake or Brick Break. Forretress can run Explosion or Counter to handle the utility set, though it must be wary of Fire Blast and Curse versions. The seldom-used Steelix can run Roar to phaze Snorlax and Explosion to do a ton of damage to it. If Snorlax doesn't have Focus Punch or Brick Break, it can be setup fodder for Dragon Dance Tyranitar, which also kicks up a sandstorm, which is very important for teams that lack a reliable Curse Snorlax counter to prevent it from setting up comfortably. Although Aerodactyl may be scared of being paralyzed by Snorlax's Body Slam, it can click Rock Slide to possibly make Snorlax flinch. Knock Off / Harden / Rest Armaldo is the greatest counter of all time to Snorlax, though it's uncommon.

Virtually any Snorlax set is walled early-game by Suicune, which can remove its Curse boosts with Roar. However, Suicune gets worn down by hits pretty quickly, and Snorlax can do some major damage to it with Self-Destruct.

If Snorlax doesn't have the right moves for Gengar, it will be beaten. However, note that Curse Snorlax can outstall Gengar that lack Taunt or Perish Song, even if it doesn't have anything to hit Gengar with.

Fighting-types make for offensive checks or counters to Snorlax. None can repeatedly come in on STAB Return, Body Slam, or Double-Edge and live to tell the tale, but they can switch into predicted Rests, Curses, and, to an extent, coverage attacks. Afterward, Fighting-types can capitalize on Snorlax's relatively poor Defense. Importantly, Focus Punch will hurt Snorlax even after multiple Curse boosts. Heracross puts a big dent in Snorlax with Focus Punch, Brick Break, and Megahorn. Machamp and Hariyama are also decent checks.

Weezing is physically bulky enough to take most boosted hits and can use Pain Split to feed off Snorlax's higher HP. Furthermore, Weezing has access to moves such as Haze, which will eliminate any boosts Snorlax can muster from Curse. Besides, Weezing's Will-O-Wisp will harshly reduce Snorlax's Attack while also causing a little damage. Weezing can hit relatively hard with Sludge Bomb, and if required, turn to Explosion to finish off Snorlax.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[wyc2333, 336830]]
- Quality checked by: [[Triangles, 118250], [vapicuno, 5454]]
- Grammar checked by: [[deetah, 297659], [The Dutch Plumberjack, 232216]]

 

[wyc2333]

shoutouts:

Altina about one year ago, i met u in a ssnl. when i knew almost nothing about adv, i still got 1-2 with u for luck. then u have told me how to play adv ou patiently, especially ur statements of rest loop 9 months ago and boom lax 3 months ago. i hope u get the deserved praise in the coming tours.

vapicuno thx for ur statements of return vs bslam.

BKC the top player on smogon. without ur snorlax video made 2 months ago, i can't write this.

Separation one of the greatest chinese players of all time. without u, i might give up playing pokemon showdown 2 months ago.

hybone u were a powerful ADVer in powc. may u succeed on team china in the future

 

[Triangles]

Second set should be

Boom
Slam/Return
Sball - this is a given
focus/eq

Counter and curse should just be referred to as alternatives in the set description. Focus punch might want a bit more attack too to actually damage skarm a bit.

QC 1/2

 

[vapicuno]

Great work wyc2333, please see my comments in blue in response to stuff you have written in bold. I didn't nitpick on the terms but more universally-understood terms like Self-destruct instead of boom should be used. It can also be a bit difficult to tell what's more/less important in the writing, so I would encourage you to try to place the emphasis in the right places using phrases like "Importantly..." or "As a side point / niche option..."

Some formatting needs to be changed, like having equals signs "=" for the heading and something like **Steel/Rock types ** for checks and counters.

[OVERVIEW]

Snorlax is one of the best if not the best special walls in the metagame thanks to its insanely strong HP and SpD stats. It is one of the greatest defensive tanks with a Curse set, and its boom can be crucial for a game. While it does have some weaknesses (namely mediocre Defense and low Speed), its strong points make it the force that defines ADV OU.

- I'm not sure I would say Snorlax is actually a good special wall. In fact, I think it's one of the frailer special walls, and it is because Spikeless offense teams use Snorlax that makes them mostly weak to electrics. Instead, I would suggest rather that Snorlax is the special wall that has the best bulky offensive presence.
- As for the term "defensive tank", I'm not sure what the smogon definitions are but I would suggest instead a more specific term like "bulky setup last pokemon win condition" or something like that.
- I think also it can help to be more specific about Selfdestruct: taking out an extra mon or the special sweeper that manages to overpower you, also preventing setup.
- I think it is important to include Spikes and Sandstorm in its weaknesses. It is what differentiates Blissey and Snorlax (namely that Blissey does much better under sand and Spikes), it lets Zapdos take down Snorlax, and many teams using last mon Curselax clear the weather and spikes.

[SET]
name: Curse Rest Lax
move 1: Curse
move 2: Rest
move 3: Return / Body Slam
move 4: Shadow Ball / Earthquake / Hidden Power Steel / Hidden Power Bug
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Careful
evs: 144 HP / 96 Atk / 132 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

Set Description

If Curselax is the last Pokemon on your team, there will be a strong possibility that you can make a comeback, as Snorlax can boost up and beat down phazers such as Skarmory and Steelix, which can no longer Whirlwind or Roar it. Curse and Rest are obligatory moves. Since Curse Rest Lax usually works as a late-game mon and doesn't care as much about paraing stuff as koing stuff, Return is generally chosen. Body Slam can paralyze opponent's pokemons, which provides overall utility. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, Magneton and Steelix. Shadow Ball solves the Gengar problem, and does good damage to Celebi and Starmie. Hidden Power Steel hits Tyranitar and Aerodactyl super effectively, and does neutral damage to Gengar. Hidden Power Bug strikes Celebi and Tyranitar. Sleep Talk prevents Snorlax from being helpless during its two turns of rest, though it's a niche set because of the mechanism "Sleep Talk and Sleep Turns Burn". Shadow Ball + Earthquake provides wide coverage, but loses immediate power against attackers such as Suicune, thus being something rare.
Immunity is generally preferred because it lets Snorlax not be poisoned, so that Snorlax will be more comfortable with Toxic users such as Blissey, Monopert, Zapdos, Magneton, Fearachi, Milotic, Jolteon and Porygon2, thus becoming a status pivot. Thick Fat has its niche because Moltres does a lot of damage with its Fire STAB, but Toxic is more common in modern ADV OU.
The EVs here allow Snorlax to guarantee a 3HKO on 240 HP / 196+ Def Suicune with +1 Return after sandstorm damage. Snorlax with 144 HP / 136+ SpD EVs walls special attackers such as Zapdos and Suicune better. If your Snorlax runs Body Slam, you may wish to consider a spread of Adamant 116 Atk to OHKO 4 HP Dugtrio. If you need a better matchup against physical attacks, Impish is an ideal nature.

- I think you can just call this Curselax.
- Steelix is relatively rare so I don't think it should be mentioned. Apart from Skarmory, Suicune is the most troublesome phazer for Curselax.
- For HP Steel, I think the emphasis is more that it is a move that most importantly still hits Gengar, but also has the added benefit of hitting Tyranitar. I think also it can be mentioned that HP Steel doesn't do enough damage to outlast WoW Taunt Gengar. In fact, I would probably put HP Bug before HP Steel.
- I think players who are new to ADV would not know about the sleep talk mechanism and it should be explained.
- Regarding the Shadow Ball + EQ set, I think this point can be clearer: Suicune can set up on and take out Snorlax faster than Snorlax can take it out, and even Zapdos or Moltres can score lucky critical hits if Snorlax takes too long to take them out.
- I have no idea what Fearachi is, no offense to Fear, and I think it should be explained. Are you talking about Toxic/Fire Punch/Wish/Protect?
- I feel that Snorlax is something that people have to learn how to EV based on some principles, which I think should be explained, but I'm not sure how the rest of the QC team feels about this. For example, it can be mentioned that special defence EVs can be invested to the point where there are good odds for Zapdos to 5hko Snorlax, allowing it to burn two rest turns, Curse once, and go back to sleep (also accommodating the occasional crit on a rest loop).

Team Options

Hidden Power Fire Magneton is almost always paired with Curse Rest Lax for its ability to take out Skarmory, Forretress, a weakened Metagross or a Choice Band one that locks into Meteor Mash, Rock Slide or Double-Edge, and even an opponent's Magneton. Magneton can even run Rain Dance / Sunny Day to clear sky, thus letting Snorlax not be buffeted by sandstorm, the most common weather in ADV OU. A Pursuit user such as Tyranitar creates a juncture for Earthquake or Hidden Power Bug Snorlax to sweep in the later phases of the game. Dugtrio matches well with this set, being able to trap Steel types such as Metagross, Jirachi, Magneton, and Heracross.

- I think Celebi and Claydol should also be listed as partners. Snorlax usually wants to come in at the endgame at full HP because there can be a huge difference getting the extra Curse before resting. Therefore, Celebi acts as a mid-game special check whose Leech Seed can also help Snorlax recover some HP if it needs to be used. Claydol most importantly removes Spikes, but also acts as an electric pivot so Snorlax doesn't get chipped by electrics.

[SET]
name: Phys Destruct
move 1: Self-Destruct
move 2: Body Slam / Return
move 3: Shadow Ball / Focus Punch / Earthquake / Counter
move 4: Focus Punch / Earthquake / Counter
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Adamant
evs: 24 HP / 116 Atk / 168 Def / 184 SpD / 12 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

Set Description

STAB Self-Destruct is powerful enough even for Rock or Steel types. Phys Destruct Snorlax frequently uses Body Slam, especially if it runs standard non max attack EVs because laying paralysis on Suicune, Tyranitar, Metagross and Skarmory is quite nice. Return has extra power. Focus punch OHKOes Tyranitar on the switch or when it clicks Dragon Dance, and does good damage to Skarmory. Counter is a decent answer to physical attackers such as Metagross. Refresh prevents Snorlax from being burned, thus being an answer to Will-O-Wisp users such as Gengar and Moltres. Brick Break is not as powerful as Focus Punch, but it has immediate power against Tyranitar. Double-Edge is a powerful STAB, but it lets Snorlax lose bulk, especially when it hits on Blissey. Curse + Self-Destruct deals with Skarmory.
The EVs here allow Snorlax to guarantee a kill on 4 HP Dugtrio with Body Slam. The Speed makes Snorlax just faster than a paralyzed 394 Spe Pokemon, namely Aerodactyl and Jolteon. If your team wants Snorlax to Focus Punch Skarmory as hard as possible, you may wish to consider maximizing its damage output. 24 HP / 184 SpD is needed to take Modest 252 SpA Zapdos's Thunderbolt and +1 Modest Suicune's Hydro Pump more comfortably.

- I feel that the more common name for this Snorlax is Utility, just because it mostly doesn't have a specific purpose but just pivots in and does damage according to the flow of the game.
- I think is is actually a super important point that needs to be mentioned that Focus Punch prevents Tyranitar from setting up on Snorlax, because many offense teams that use Snorlax don't have hard DDtar counters.
- It should be emphasized that Refresh, Brick Break and Double-Edge are niche options. The way it is written sounds like those are super important moves whereas the more conventional fillers like Earthquake and Shadow Ball are ignored. I feel that for the sake of the new player, it should be repeated at least what Earthquake deals with (for example, people often forget about Jirachi!)
- Curse + Selfdestruct is not just a niche option; I think it is actually a very usable and common option that serves a somewhat different purpose of removing Skarmory/Tyranitar/Metagross for something like Aerodactyl to sweep. This might even warrant a different set altogether, not sure what other QC members think. FWIW, running 176+ Atk on Curse + Selfdestruct 1hkos Skarmory, and maybe more to deal with defensive Metagross.

Team Options

Phys Destruct Snorlax without Focus Punch is best suited to a Magneton-aided balance or offense team, especially Magneton based physical spam, in which its typical partners in Salamence and Gyarados are found. Snorlax appreciates their Fighting resistances. If Phys Destruct Snorlax runs Shadow Ball + Focus Punch, it will be generally used on Spikeless Offense teams. Pursuit users such as Tyranitar and Houndoom combine with Snorlax excellently, being able to trap Gengar, thus letting Snorlax give up Shadow Ball and boom something more easily. Houndoom even removes defensive Celebi, which is a solid answer for Snorlax without Hidden Power Bug.

- Not sure how I feel about putting Houndoom in here, it's pretty niche (or at least mention it's niche).

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]

Other Options

Fire Blast is a traditional answer for Steel types such as Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross and Magneton. Thunder is an interesting choice for combatting Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Cloyster and Skarmory, and it provides a great paralysis rate. However, the accuracy is rather low, so it may only be supported by rain.

Checks and Counters

Knock off / Harden / Rest Armaldo is the greatest counter of all time to Snorlax. Other counters depend on its set.

Virtually any Snorlax set is walled early-game by Suicune, which can Roar away its Curse boosts. However, Suicune gets worn down by hits pretty quickly; there's always the possibility of Snorlax using Self-Destruct on Suicune as well.

Another pain for Snorlax is defensive Celebi. Without Hidden Power Bug or a boost from Curse, Snorlax cannot easily 2HKO Celebi, which means it can stall out Snorlax with Leech Seed and Recover; it also shrugs off Body Slam paralysis thanks to Natural Cure and Heal Bell. To prevent losing to a Resting Snorlax, Celebi can set up Calm Mind and take down Snorlax with Psychic, as long as it plays it safe with Recover. Again, it needs to be wary of Self-Destruct.

If Snorlax doesn't have the right moves for Gengar, it will be beaten. However, note that it can stall out Gengar that lacks Taunt, even if it doesn't have anything to hit Gengar with.

Steel and Rock types resist Normal attacks. Skarmory and Forretress can come in and set up Spikes. Forretress should be wary of Fire Blast, which doesn't do a lot of damage to SpD Skarmory. Skarmory can phaze it away for Spikes damage, and Forretress can run Explosion or Counter. If Snorlax doesn't have Earthquake, it will be a set-up folder for Calm Mind Jirachi and won't do much damage to Metagross. Even if Phys Destruct Snorlax runs Earthquake, it will lose to Wish Jirachi without status. Under sand, Magnet Magneton can make Snorlax rest loop, and beat Phys Destruct Snorlax without Earthquake or Brick Break. Steelix can run Roar to phaze Snorlax, and Explosion to do a ton of damage. If Snorlax doesn't have Focus Punch or Brick Break, it can be a set-up folder for Dragon Dance Tyranitar, which also kicks up a sandstorm. Although Aerodactyl may be scared of being paralyed by Snorlax's Body Slam, it can click Rock Slide to let Snorlax flinch.

Fighting types make for more offensive checks or counters to Snorlax. None can repeatedly come in on STAB Return, Body Slam, or Double-Edge and live to tell the tale, but they can switch into predicted Rests, Curses, and, to an extent, Snorlax's coverage attacks as well, and hit it on its relatively poor Defense; Focus Punch will hurt Snorlax even after multiple Curse boosts. Heracross puts a big dent in Snorlax with Focus Punch, Brick Break or Megahorn. Machamp and Hariyama are solid answers as a critical hit of Cross Chop will OHKO Snorlax no matter how many Curse boosts it has. Besides all this, Snorlax generally isn't good at taking physical hits from the likes of Salamence, namely its Brick Break.

Weezing is physically bulky enough to take most boosted hits and can use Pain Split to feed off of Snorlax's higher HP. Furthermore, Weezing has access to moves such as Haze, which will eliminate any boosts Snorlax can muster from Curse, as well as Will-O-Wisp, which will harshly reduce Snorlax's Attack stat while also negating Leftovers and causing a little extra damage. Weezing can hit relatively hard with Sludge Bomb, and if required, even turn to Explosion to finish off Snorlax.

- I think there are so many checks and counters here that they should be listed in order of usage and reliability, because we don't want to give the mistaken impression that you can rely on Forretress to counter Snorlax. So, I think Skarmory, Metagross and Defensive Celebi should lie at the top of that list. Armaldo is too rare to be worth a mention in my humble opinion, and I don't think Salamence should be there because it is barely reliable.
- I wouldn't go so far as to say Cross Chop Machamp and Hariyama are solid Snorlax answers. They are offensive checks as you mentioned and should be left as that. Knocking off Snorlax with defensive Hariyama however, especially if it has Whirlwind, is an important point if you do want to mention Hariyama.
- It should also be mentioned somewhere that Sandstorm is very important for teams that lack a reliable Snorlax counter to prevent it from setting up.
- Also, I think we should try to be clear at every point if a check only applies to one variant of Snorlax. For example, Forretress is not a Curselax counter, and Calm Mind Wish Jirachi can only reliably deal with the Curse Return Non-EQ set.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[wyc2333]]
- Quality checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]

 

[wyc2333]

Great work wyc2333, please see my comments in blue in response to stuff you have written in bold. I didn't nitpick on the terms but more universally-understood terms like Self-destruct instead of boom should be used. It can also be a bit difficult to tell what's more/less important in the writing, so I would encourage you to try to place the emphasis in the right places using phrases like "Importantly..." or "As a side point / niche option..."

Some formatting needs to be changed, like having equals signs "=" for the heading and something like **Steel/Rock types ** for checks and counters.

u may be the greatest tutor of all time in adv ou community.

i'm not sure if lax can be called the special wall that has the best bulky offensive presence. imo NOTAQDOL, boom regice and jolt are also offensive, especially regice, who can be a special pivot + boom for cm spam or rain offense teams.
i wrote curse rest lax instead of curse lax because curse + boom lax can also be called curselax.
explaining "sleep talk and sleep turns burn" is rather complicated. can i quote McM's thread?
yes. i'm talking about fire/tox/wish/tect. i learn modern adv ou most from linear's set dump and team dump.
lax wants to come in on endgame, but it mostly comes in on the middle even early stage. for example, when it comes to mence/dol/mag/bi/lax/cune, i don't want to reveal my magneton earlier. if mence vs lead cune, i will switch in lax to scout ib even tox since my cune may not run roar.
when a mon is seeded, it usually switches out. so bi's leech seed can't help lax directly. imo bi's bp can let trappers work more easily, and defensive bi provides a counter for an opp's lax.
the name "phys destruct" is from linear's set dump. if the name is changed to utility or baitlax, fire blast may be mentioned.
are there other possiblities that tar sets up on lax besides dd?
imo counter may also be a niche option bc if u click counter vs gross, gross can click boom directly.
i am not satisfied with my curse + boom lax teams. for example, when it comes to gross/tar/pert/mence/curse + boom lax/aero, i would rather run focus punch > curse, and run cb gross, mixed tar, offensive pert and elemental mence to deal with skarm, which is a headache for physspam. and i wonder when lax click boom, why doesn't skarm click tect? and why doesn't tar click sub? (though sub tar isn't that common in the current meta)
maybe houndoom should be mentioned as a partner of curse rest lax because suit tar kicks up sandstream.
yama seldom has an opportunity to knock off or whirlwind lax.

 

[vapicuno]

u may be the greatest tutor of all time in adv ou community.

Thanks :) it means a lot

i'm not sure if lax can be called the special wall that has the best bulky offensive presence. imo NOTAQDOL, boom regice and jolt are also offensive, especially regice, who can be a special pivot + boom for cm spam or rain offense teams.

Jolteon isnt bulky, Regice is kinda niche. Claydol is not a special wall but a pivot because Zap kills it before it can kill zap. I was thinking of comparing to the other two major walls Celebi and Blissey.

i wrote curse rest lax instead of curse lax because curse + boom lax can also be called curselax.
explaining "sleep talk and sleep turns burn" is rather complicated. can i quote McM's thread?

Sure. A way to describe this is to say the sleep counter resets if sleep talk is used before switching out.

yes. i'm talking about fire/tox/wish/tect. i learn modern adv ou mostly from linear's set dump and team dump.
lax wants to come in on endgame, but it mostly comes in on the middle even early stage. for example, when it comes to mence/dol/mag/bi/lax/cune, i don't want to reveal my magneton earlier. if mence vs lead cune, i may switch in lax to scout ib even tox since my cune may not run roar.
when a mon is seeded, it usually switches out. so bi's leech seed can't help lax directly. imo bi's bp can let trappers work more easily, and defensive bi provides a counter for an opp's lax.

Celebi is not a perfect special wall of course, but all the more from your reasons (which are valid) it is indeed justified as a common partner of curselax.

the name "phys destruct" is from linear's set dump. if the name is changed to utility, fire blast may be mentioned.

Utility just means it does a variety of things. Fire blast or not, up to you.

are there other possiblities that tar sets up on lax besides dd?

Not really.

imo counter may also be a niche option bc if u click counter vs gross, gross can click boom directly.
i am not satisfied with my curse + boom lax teams. for example, when it comes to gross/tar/pert/mence/curse + boom lax/aero, i would rather run focus punch > curse, and run cb gross, mixed tar, offensive pert and elemental mence to deal with skarm, which is a headache for physspam. and i wonder when lax click boom, why doesn't skarm click tect? and why doesn't tar click sub? (though sub tar isn't that common in the current meta)

Using curse boom lax requires you to really want to get rid of steel/rocks like in that phys spam team you mentioned, and have enough special walling or offensive momentum to take the remaining special weak. Indeed skarm can protect, so you either use Mag so that you boom on Metagross/tyranitar instead opening up an Aerodactyl clean for example, or bluff by revealing only mons that make it seem like a curse rest lax team, so that the opposing skarm user will be more worried about protecting on a Magneton behind and be encouraged to phaze/spike. An example is Ojama's Curse boom + defensive celebi + sub rest cune team.

maybe houndoom should be mentioned as a partner of curse rest lax because suit tar kicks up sandstream.

Houndoom is pretty niche, so just be careful of that if you do mention it.

yama seldom has an opportunity to knock off or whirlwind lax.

In the endgame you do what you have to do. I was merely responding to you saying Hariyama is a Snorlax counter with Cross Chop, which I find much more unreliable than knock off in the curselax endgame.

 

[wyc2333]

if +1 lax clicks boom, skarm can switch out, thus bringing in gar, so the boom means nothing.

 

[vapicuno]

I think what I am trying to say is that Curse and counter are just about as niche as each other on the selfdestruct set. If you list counter as a slashed move I feel that you might as well list curse as a slashed move too.

 

[vapicuno]

Okay anyway looking through conversations with the qc team I think the consensus is to follow Triangles' set for lax but mention counter curse and fire blast in the move descriptions. People from the qc team is my understanding right?

 

[wyc2333]

Okay anyway looking through conversations with the qc team I think the consensus is to follow Triangles' set for lax but mention counter curse and fire blast in the move descriptions. People from the qc team is my understanding right?

i will still mention Fire Blast in other options bc it is never used in wcop 2019.

 

[vapicuno]

Sure I think people are fine with that.

 

[Jisoo]

this isn't an official qc check by any means as it's already been 2/2'd but I there are some things looking through the analysis that could be improved upon

• Think you should definitely change the names of the sets. CurseLax and Utility Lax would probably be your best choices here. Repetition of "curse rest lax" in the analysis made it a clunky read for me personally and regarding the name phys destruct I think it's an overemphasis on self-destruct when the set is much more than that (body slam paras/strong return attacks, focus punch wearing down checks like dp-less skarmory). a few qc members share this sentiment
• Colloquial set names are fine in the sets themselves (CurseLax here) but names such as Fearachi and Monopert shouldn't be used here IMO.
• Remove mention of toxic jolteon in the third paragraph
• Think you can add a little more substance to why Lax is used as a secondary answer to zapdos and other special attackers (sand and no recover)
• I think you can emphasize how an EQ Lax is much harder to deal with than a Shadow Ball Lax (when talking about Pursuit Tyranitar)
• I think Skarmory/Steels should come before Celebi in the Checks&Counters section
• In team options for utility lax you should include examples which benefit from typical counters being removed/chipped by self destruct/focus punch

 

[wyc2333]

this isn't an official qc check by any means as it's already been 2/2'd but I there are some things looking through the analysis that could be improved upon

• Think you should definitely change the names of the sets. CurseLax and Utility Lax would probably be your best choices here. Repetition of "curse rest lax" in the analysis made it a clunky read for me personally and regarding the name phys destruct I think it's an overemphasis on self-destruct when the set is much more than that (body slam paras/strong return attacks, focus punch wearing down checks like dp-less skarmory). a few qc members share this sentiment
• Colloquial set names are fine in the sets themselves (CurseLax here) but names such as Fearachi and Monopert shouldn't be used here IMO.
• Remove mention of toxic jolteon in the third paragraph
• Think you can add a little more substance to why Lax is used as a secondary answer to zapdos and other special attackers (sand and no recover)
• I think you can emphasize how an EQ Lax is much harder to deal with than a Shadow Ball Lax (when talking about Pursuit Tyranitar)
• I think Skarmory/Steels should come before Celebi in the Checks&Counters section
• In team options for utility lax you should include examples which benefit from typical counters being removed/chipped by self destruct/focus punch

imo phys destruct doesn't lay an overemphasis on self-destruct. it means that lax runs 4 physical attacks instead of 3 physical attacks + 1 special attack (namely fire blast). anyway, i'll take ur advice.
i won't emphasize how an EQ Lax is much harder to deal with than a Shadow Ball Lax when talking about Pursuit Tyranitar bc hp bug has its niche.
idk what typical counters will be removed/chipped by self destruct/focus punch bc gar usually has the reason to switch in these moves, thus being mind games

 

[vapicuno]

Booming on Metagross and Tyranitar puts them in range of Zapdos/DDers/Agiligross, you can mention that for example. As to your Gengar point, it's quite clear to a trained eye which teams are likely to have Gengar (spikes without spinner and special offense are most likely) and you can make the necessary predictions.

 

[M Dragon]

evs: 24 HP / 116 Atk / 168 Def / 184 SpD / 12 Spe

This ev spread is very inefficient.

88 HP / 144 Def / 144 Sp Def gives you the some special bulk, while also giving you a better physical bulk using the same number of defensive EVs

 

[deetah]

Amcheck, feel free to implement what you would like from this. Add Remove Comments (AC) = Add Comma (RC) = Remove Comma (AH) = Add Hyphen (RP) = Remove Period

amcheck

[OVERVIEW]

Snorlax is a special wall that has the best a great defensive and offensive presence. It is one of the greatest bulky setup last pokemons with a Curse set, and its thanks to its Curse set as well as Self-Destruct, (AC) which can be crucial for a game, taking out an extra opposing Pokemon or a sweeper that wants to overpower it. While it does have some weaknesses, namely mediocre Defense, low Speed, and the possibility of being hurt by Spikes and sandstorm, (namely mediocre Defense, low Speed and possiblity to be buffeted by spikes + sandstorm), its strong points make it the force that defines ADV OU.

[SET]
name: CurseLax
move 1: Curse
move 2: Rest
move 3: Return / Body Slam
move 4: Shadow Ball / Earthquake / Hidden Power Bug / Hidden Power Steel
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Careful
evs: 144 HP / 96 Atk / 132 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
CurseLax Curse Snorlax can be a secondary check for special attackers such as Zapdos because it is usually buffeted by Sandstorm and doesn't have a reliable way to restore its HP. If CurseLax Curse Snorlax is the last Pokemon on your team, there will be a strong possibility that you can make a comeback, as Snorlax can boost up and beat down phazers such as Skarmory, Suicune, (AC) and something rare like Steelix, which can no longer use Whirlwind or Roar against it.

Curse and Rest are obligatory moves. Since CurseLax Curse Snorlax usually works as a late-game Pokemon and doesn't care as much about spreading paralysis as much as KOing the foe, Return is generally chosen. Body Slam can paralyze the opponent's pokemons Pokemon, which provides overall utility. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, (AC) and Magneton. Shadow Ball solves the Gengar problem, and does good damage to Celebi and Starmie hits Gengar, Celebi, and Starmie for super effective damage. (Rephrased the sentence for better flow and to a way that sounds better) Hidden Power Bug strikes Celebi and Tyranitar. Hidden Power Steel not only hits Gengar, but also has the benefit of hitting Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Sleep Talk prevents Snorlax from being helpless during its two turns of Rest, though it's a niche set because of the mechanism "Sleep Talk and Sleep Turns Burn", which means that sleep turns resetting if Sleep Talk is used before switching out. Shadow Ball + Earthquake provides wide coverage, but Suicune can set up on and take out Snorlax faster than Snorlax can kill KO (Kill is a banned phrase, except in revenge kill) it, and even other special attackers such as Zapdos and Moltres can score critical hits if Snorlax spends too many turns taking attempting to take them out.

Immunity is generally preferred because it lets prevents Snorlax not be from being (Just changed the wording to a way I thought sounded better) poisoned, (RC) so that Snorlax will be more comfortable and allows Snorlax to deal with Toxic users such as Blissey, Zapdos, Magneton, Milotic, (AC) and Porygon2, thus becoming a status pivot. Thick Fat has its niche because Moltres does a lot of damage to Snorlax with its Fire-type STAB moves, but Toxic is more common in modern ADV OU.

The specified EVs here allow Snorlax to guarantee a 3HKO on 240 HP / 196+ Def near-maximum physically bulky Suicune with +1 Return after sandstorm damage. Snorlax with 144 HP / 136+ SpD 144 HP and 136 Special Defense EVs walls special attackers such as Zapdos and Suicune better. If your Snorlax runs Body Slam, you may wish to consider a spread of Adamant 116 Atk Attack and an Adamant nature to OHKO 4 HP Dugtrio. If you need a better matchup against physical attacks, Impish will be an ideal nature.

Team Options
=========
Above all, Magneton is almost always paired with CurseLax Curse Snorlax for its ability to take out Skarmory, Magneton, and a weakened or Choice Band Metagross or a Choice Banded one that locks that is locked into Meteor Mash, Rock Slide, (AC) or Double-Edge, and even an opponent's Magneton. Magneton can also run Rain Dance or Sunny Day to clear sky, thus letting Snorlax not be avoid being buffeted by sandstorm. A Pursuit user such as Tyranitar traps Gengar, thus creating a juncture for Snorlax without Shadow Ball to sweep in the later phases of the late-game. Dugtrio matches well with this set, being able to trap Celebi and Heracross as well as Steel-types (AH) such as Metagross, Jirachi, and Magneton, Celebi and Heracross. Psychic-types (AH) such as Celebi and Claydol are common friends teammates. The former's Baton Pass can let trappers, namely Magneton and Dugtrio, work more easily; while the latter can not only rapid spin spikes, remove Spikes with Rapid Spin but also acts as an Electric a pivot so that for Electric-type attacks that would normally wear down Snorlax doesn't get chipped by Electric attacks.

[SET]
name: Utility Lax
move 1: Self-Destruct
move 2: Body Slam / Return
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Focus Punch / Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Adamant
evs: 24 HP / 116 Atk / 168 Def / 184 SpD / 12 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
STAB Self-Destruct is Snorlax's strongest attack, powerful enough to even for damage Rock / Steel types. Utility Lax Snorlax usually uses Body Slam with this set, especially if it runs standard non max non-maximum Attack EVs because laying paralysis on paralyzing Suicune, Tyranitar, Metagross, (AC) and Skarmory is quite nice. Return has extra power, and if you invest enough Attack EVs, it can 2HKO some versions of Zapdos. Shadow Ball will solve the problem of hits Gengar super effectively if your team doesn't have Pursuit support, and does good damage to Celebi and Starmie. Focus Punch OHKOes Tyranitar on the switch or when it clicks Dragon Dance, and does good damage to Skarmory, though you should be wary of Drill Peck variants. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, (AC) and Magneton. Curse + Self-Destruct deals with Skarmory, Tyranitar, (AC) and Metagross. Counter is a decent answer to physical attackers such as Metagross.

The specified EVs here allow Snorlax to guarantee a kill KO on 4 HP Dugtrio with Body Slam. The Speed investment makes Snorlax just faster than a paralyzed 394 Spe Pokemon, namely Aerodactyl and Jolteon. If your team wants Snorlax to Focus Punch hit Skarmory harder with Focus Punch, you may want more Attack investment. 24 HP / 184 SpD is 24 HP and 184 Special Defense EVs are needed to take Modest 252 SpA Special Attack Zapdos's Thunderbolt and +1 Modest Suicune's Hydro Pump more comfortably.

Team Options
=========
Utility Lax Snorlax without Focus Punch is best suited to a Magneton-aided balance or offense team, especially Magneton-based (AH) physical spam. With Hidden Power Fire, Magneton can trap Earthquake Forretress more reliably. If Utility Lax Snorlax runs Focus Punch, it will be should generally be used on Spikeless Offense offensive teams without Spikes. Flying-types (AH) such as Salamence and Gyarados are great partners because Snorlax appreciates their Fighting-type resistances. If Utility Lax remove their Snorlax can remove its typical counters such as Metagross and Tyranitar, they will be glad it will be easier to sweep. (At least that's what I think you mean??) Pursuit users such as Tyranitar combine with Snorlax excellently, being able to trap Gengar, thus letting Snorlax give up Shadow Ball and use Self-Destruct something more easily comfortably. Although Houndoom is a niche Pokemon, it removes defensive Celebi, which is a solid answer to Snorlax without Hidden Power Bug.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Fire Blast is a traditional answer for to Steel-types (AH) such as Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross, (AC) and Magneton. Refresh prevents Utility Lax Snorlax from being burned, thus being an answer to Will-O-Wisp users such as Gengar and Moltres. Brick Break is not as powerful as Focus Punch, but it is an immediate answer against Tyranitar. Double-Edge is a powerful STAB move, but it lets causes Snorlax to lose bulk, especially when it hits Blissey. Thunder is an interesting a powerful choice for combatting Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Cloyster, (AC) and Skarmory, and it provides a great paralysis rate. However, the accuracy is rather low, so it may be only supported by rain.

Checks and Counters
===================
Most counters depend on Snorlax's set.

The pain for Snorlax is Skarmory, Metagross and defensive Celebi. Skarmory, Metagross, and defensive Celebi are some of the biggest checks to Snorlax. Skarmory can come in, set up Spikes, (AC) and phaze it away. If Snorlax doesn't have Earthquake, it won't do much damage to Metagross. Without Hidden Power Bug or a boost from Curse, Snorlax cannot easily 2HKO Celebi, which means it can stall out outstall Snorlax with Leech Seed and Recover. It also shrugs off Body Slam paralysis thanks to Natural Cure and Heal Bell. To prevent itself from losing to a Resting Snorlax with Rest, Celebi can set up Calm Mind and take down Snorlax with Psychic, as long as it is safe with Recover. Anyway, it needs to be wary of Self-Destruct.

Besides Skarmory and Metagross, other Steel / Rock types resist Snorlax's STAB attacks. Snorlax without Earthquake will be a set-up folder setup fodder for Calm Mind Jirachi. (RP) (AC), but Wish Jirachi can only reliably deal with the Curse non-Earthquake set. Under sand, Magnet Magneton can make Snorlax use Rest repeatedly and beat the utility lax set without Earthquake or Brick Break. Forretress can run Explosion or Counter to handle the utility lax set, though it must be wary of Fire Blast and Curse versions. Something seldom used like Steelix can run Roar to phaze Snorlax and Explosion to do a ton of damage to it. If Snorlax doesn't have Focus Punch or Brick Break, it can be a set-up folder setup fodder for Dragon Dance Tyranitar, which also kicks up a sandstorm, very important for teams that lack a reliable CurseLax Curse Snorlax counter to prevent it from setting up comfortably. Although Aerodactyl may be scared of being paralyzed by Snorlax's Body Slam, it can click Rock Slide to let possibly make Snorlax flinch. Knock Off / Harden / Rest Armaldo is the greatest counter of all time to Snorlax, though it's uncommon.

Virtually any Snorlax set is walled early-game by Suicune, which can Roar away its Curse boosts remove its Curse boosts with Roar. However, Suicune gets worn down by hits pretty quickly, and there's always the possibility of Snorlax using Self-Destruct on it Snorlax can do some major damage to it with Self-Destruct.

If Snorlax doesn't have the right moves for Gengar, it will be beaten. However, note that CurseLax Curse Snorlax can stall out outstall Gengar that lacks Taunt or Perish Song, even if it doesn't have anything to hit Gengar with.

Fighting-types (AH) make for offensive checks or counters to Snorlax. None can repeatedly come in on STAB Return, Body Slam, or Double-Edge and live to tell the tale, but they can switch into predicted Rests, Curses, and, to an extent, Snorlax's coverage attacks. Afterwards, fighters Fighting-types can hit it on capitalize on its relatively poor Defense. Importantly, Focus Punch will hurt Snorlax even after multiple Curse boosts. Heracross puts a big dent in Snorlax with Focus Punch, Brick Break, (AC) or and Megahorn. Machamp and Hariyama are also decent checks.

Weezing is physically bulky enough to take most boosted hits and can use Pain Split to feed off Snorlax's higher HP. Furthermore, Weezing has access to moves such as Haze, which will eliminate any boosts Snorlax can muster from Curse. Besides, Weezing's Will-O-Wisp will harshly reduce Snorlax's Attack stat while also causing a little damage. Weezing can hit relatively hard with Sludge Bomb, and if required, turn to Explosion to finish off Snorlax.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[wyc2333, 336830]]
- Quality checked by: [[Triangles, 118250], [vapicuno, 5454]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]

 

[wyc2333]

Amcheck, feel free to implement what you would like from this. Add Remove Comments (AC) = Add Comma (RC) = Remove Comma (AH) = Add Hyphen (RP) = Remove Period

amcheck

[OVERVIEW]

Snorlax is a special wall that has the best a great defensive and offensive presence. It is one of the greatest bulky setup last pokemons with a Curse set, and its thanks to its Curse set as well as Self-Destruct, (AC) which can be crucial for a game, taking out an extra opposing Pokemon or a sweeper that wants to overpower it. While it does have some weaknesses, namely mediocre Defense, low Speed, and the possibility of being hurt by Spikes and sandstorm, (namely mediocre Defense, low Speed and possiblity to be buffeted by spikes + sandstorm), its strong points make it the force that defines ADV OU.

[SET]
name: CurseLax
move 1: Curse
move 2: Rest
move 3: Return / Body Slam
move 4: Shadow Ball / Earthquake / Hidden Power Bug / Hidden Power Steel
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Careful
evs: 144 HP / 96 Atk / 132 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
CurseLax Curse Snorlax can be a secondary check for special attackers such as Zapdos because it is usually buffeted by Sandstorm and doesn't have a reliable way to restore its HP. If CurseLax Curse Snorlax is the last Pokemon on your team, there will be a strong possibility that you can make a comeback, as Snorlax can boost up and beat down phazers such as Skarmory, Suicune, (AC) and something rare like Steelix, which can no longer use Whirlwind or Roar against it.

Curse and Rest are obligatory moves. Since CurseLax Curse Snorlax usually works as a late-game Pokemon and doesn't care as much about spreading paralysis as much as KOing the foe, Return is generally chosen. Body Slam can paralyze the opponent's pokemons Pokemon, which provides overall utility. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, (AC) and Magneton. Shadow Ball solves the Gengar problem, and does good damage to Celebi and Starmie hits Gengar, Celebi, and Starmie for super effective damage. (Rephrased the sentence for better flow and to a way that sounds better) Hidden Power Bug strikes Celebi and Tyranitar. Hidden Power Steel not only hits Gengar, but also has the benefit of hitting Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Sleep Talk prevents Snorlax from being helpless during its two turns of Rest, though it's a niche set because of the mechanism "Sleep Talk and Sleep Turns Burn", which means that sleep turns resetting if Sleep Talk is used before switching out. Shadow Ball + Earthquake provides wide coverage, but Suicune can set up on and take out Snorlax faster than Snorlax can kill KO (Kill is a banned phrase, except in revenge kill) it, and even other special attackers such as Zapdos and Moltres can score critical hits if Snorlax spends too many turns taking attempting to take them out.

Immunity is generally preferred because it lets prevents Snorlax not be from being (Just changed the wording to a way I thought sounded better) poisoned, (RC) so that Snorlax will be more comfortable and allows Snorlax to deal with Toxic users such as Blissey, Zapdos, Magneton, Milotic, (AC) and Porygon2, thus becoming a status pivot. Thick Fat has its niche because Moltres does a lot of damage to Snorlax with its Fire-type STAB moves, but Toxic is more common in modern ADV OU.

The specified EVs here allow Snorlax to guarantee a 3HKO on 240 HP / 196+ Def near-maximum physically bulky Suicune with +1 Return after sandstorm damage. Snorlax with 144 HP / 136+ SpD 144 HP and 136 Special Defense EVs walls special attackers such as Zapdos and Suicune better. If your Snorlax runs Body Slam, you may wish to consider a spread of Adamant 116 Atk Attack and an Adamant nature to OHKO 4 HP Dugtrio. If you need a better matchup against physical attacks, Impish will be an ideal nature.

Team Options
=========
Above all, Magneton is almost always paired with CurseLax Curse Snorlax for its ability to take out Skarmory, Magneton, and a weakened or Choice Band Metagross or a Choice Banded one that locks that is locked into Meteor Mash, Rock Slide, (AC) or Double-Edge, and even an opponent's Magneton. Magneton can also run Rain Dance or Sunny Day to clear sky, thus letting Snorlax not be avoid being buffeted by sandstorm. A Pursuit user such as Tyranitar traps Gengar, thus creating a juncture for Snorlax without Shadow Ball to sweep in the later phases of the late-game. Dugtrio matches well with this set, being able to trap Celebi and Heracross as well as Steel-types (AH) such as Metagross, Jirachi, and Magneton, Celebi and Heracross. Psychic-types (AH) such as Celebi and Claydol are common friends teammates. The former's Baton Pass can let trappers, namely Magneton and Dugtrio, work more easily; while the latter can not only rapid spin spikes, remove Spikes with Rapid Spin but also acts as an Electric a pivot so that for Electric-type attacks that would normally wear down Snorlax doesn't get chipped by Electric attacks.

[SET]
name: Utility Lax
move 1: Self-Destruct
move 2: Body Slam / Return
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Focus Punch / Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Adamant
evs: 24 HP / 116 Atk / 168 Def / 184 SpD / 12 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
STAB Self-Destruct is Snorlax's strongest attack, powerful enough to even for damage Rock / Steel types. Utility Lax Snorlax usually uses Body Slam with this set, especially if it runs standard non max non-maximum Attack EVs because laying paralysis on paralyzing Suicune, Tyranitar, Metagross, (AC) and Skarmory is quite nice. Return has extra power, and if you invest enough Attack EVs, it can 2HKO some versions of Zapdos. Shadow Ball will solve the problem of hits Gengar super effectively if your team doesn't have Pursuit support, and does good damage to Celebi and Starmie. Focus Punch OHKOes Tyranitar on the switch or when it clicks Dragon Dance, and does good damage to Skarmory, though you should be wary of Drill Peck variants. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, (AC) and Magneton. Curse + Self-Destruct deals with Skarmory, Tyranitar, (AC) and Metagross. Counter is a decent answer to physical attackers such as Metagross.

The specified EVs here allow Snorlax to guarantee a kill KO on 4 HP Dugtrio with Body Slam. The Speed investment makes Snorlax just faster than a paralyzed 394 Spe Pokemon, namely Aerodactyl and Jolteon. If your team wants Snorlax to Focus Punch hit Skarmory harder with Focus Punch, you may want more Attack investment. 24 HP / 184 SpD is 24 HP and 184 Special Defense EVs are needed to take Modest 252 SpA Special Attack Zapdos's Thunderbolt and +1 Modest Suicune's Hydro Pump more comfortably.

Team Options
=========
Utility Lax Snorlax without Focus Punch is best suited to a Magneton-aided balance or offense team, especially Magneton-based (AH) physical spam. With Hidden Power Fire, Magneton can trap Earthquake Forretress more reliably. If Utility Lax Snorlax runs Focus Punch, it will be should generally be used on Spikeless Offense offensive teams without Spikes. Flying-types (AH) such as Salamence and Gyarados are great partners because Snorlax appreciates their Fighting-type resistances. If Utility Lax remove their Snorlax can remove its typical counters such as Metagross and Tyranitar, they will be glad it will be easier to sweep. (At least that's what I think you mean??) Pursuit users such as Tyranitar combine with Snorlax excellently, being able to trap Gengar, thus letting Snorlax give up Shadow Ball and use Self-Destruct something more easily comfortably. Although Houndoom is a niche Pokemon, it removes defensive Celebi, which is a solid answer to Snorlax without Hidden Power Bug.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Fire Blast is a traditional answer for to Steel-types (AH) such as Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross, (AC) and Magneton. Refresh prevents Utility Lax Snorlax from being burned, thus being an answer to Will-O-Wisp users such as Gengar and Moltres. Brick Break is not as powerful as Focus Punch, but it is an immediate answer against Tyranitar. Double-Edge is a powerful STAB move, but it lets causes Snorlax to lose bulk, especially when it hits Blissey. Thunder is an interesting a powerful choice for combatting Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Cloyster, (AC) and Skarmory, and it provides a great paralysis rate. However, the accuracy is rather low, so it may be only supported by rain.

Checks and Counters
===================
Most counters depend on Snorlax's set.

The pain for Snorlax is Skarmory, Metagross and defensive Celebi. Skarmory, Metagross, and defensive Celebi are some of the biggest checks to Snorlax. Skarmory can come in, set up Spikes, (AC) and phaze it away. If Snorlax doesn't have Earthquake, it won't do much damage to Metagross. Without Hidden Power Bug or a boost from Curse, Snorlax cannot easily 2HKO Celebi, which means it can stall out outstall Snorlax with Leech Seed and Recover. It also shrugs off Body Slam paralysis thanks to Natural Cure and Heal Bell. To prevent itself from losing to a Resting Snorlax with Rest, Celebi can set up Calm Mind and take down Snorlax with Psychic, as long as it is safe with Recover. Anyway, it needs to be wary of Self-Destruct.

Besides Skarmory and Metagross, other Steel / Rock types resist Snorlax's STAB attacks. Snorlax without Earthquake will be a set-up folder setup fodder for Calm Mind Jirachi. (RP) (AC), but Wish Jirachi can only reliably deal with the Curse non-Earthquake set. Under sand, Magnet Magneton can make Snorlax use Rest repeatedly and beat the utility lax set without Earthquake or Brick Break. Forretress can run Explosion or Counter to handle the utility lax set, though it must be wary of Fire Blast and Curse versions. Something seldom used like Steelix can run Roar to phaze Snorlax and Explosion to do a ton of damage to it. If Snorlax doesn't have Focus Punch or Brick Break, it can be a set-up folder setup fodder for Dragon Dance Tyranitar, which also kicks up a sandstorm, very important for teams that lack a reliable CurseLax Curse Snorlax counter to prevent it from setting up comfortably. Although Aerodactyl may be scared of being paralyzed by Snorlax's Body Slam, it can click Rock Slide to let possibly make Snorlax flinch. Knock Off / Harden / Rest Armaldo is the greatest counter of all time to Snorlax, though it's uncommon.

Virtually any Snorlax set is walled early-game by Suicune, which can Roar away its Curse boosts remove its Curse boosts with Roar. However, Suicune gets worn down by hits pretty quickly, and there's always the possibility of Snorlax using Self-Destruct on it Snorlax can do some major damage to it with Self-Destruct.

If Snorlax doesn't have the right moves for Gengar, it will be beaten. However, note that CurseLax Curse Snorlax can stall out outstall Gengar that lacks Taunt or Perish Song, even if it doesn't have anything to hit Gengar with.

Fighting-types (AH) make for offensive checks or counters to Snorlax. None can repeatedly come in on STAB Return, Body Slam, or Double-Edge and live to tell the tale, but they can switch into predicted Rests, Curses, and, to an extent, Snorlax's coverage attacks. Afterwards, fighters Fighting-types can hit it on capitalize on its relatively poor Defense. Importantly, Focus Punch will hurt Snorlax even after multiple Curse boosts. Heracross puts a big dent in Snorlax with Focus Punch, Brick Break, (AC) or and Megahorn. Machamp and Hariyama are also decent checks.

Weezing is physically bulky enough to take most boosted hits and can use Pain Split to feed off Snorlax's higher HP. Furthermore, Weezing has access to moves such as Haze, which will eliminate any boosts Snorlax can muster from Curse. Besides, Weezing's Will-O-Wisp will harshly reduce Snorlax's Attack stat while also causing a little damage. Weezing can hit relatively hard with Sludge Bomb, and if required, turn to Explosion to finish off Snorlax.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[wyc2333, 336830]]
- Quality checked by: [[Triangles, 118250], [vapicuno, 5454]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]

Thanks so much.

 

[deetah]

Thanks so much.

You're welcome but my check does not count as an actual GP check so you don't put me in the credits, so please remove me from there. My check is an amateur check. I'm also unsure why you removed parts, specially in the first paragraph, that I didn't mark as removals. For clarification, the stuff I marked in red were things to remove, and stuff in blue was things to add.

 

[deetah]

You're welcome but my check does not count as an actual GP check so you don't put me in the credits, so please remove me from there. My check is an amateur check. I'm also unsure why you removed parts, specially in the first paragraph, that I didn't mark as removals. For clarification, the stuff I marked in red were things to remove, and stuff in blue was things to add.

Would you look at that, I'm a GPer now! My check now officially counts as 1/2. Now you can add me to the credits for real this time. Please take care to make sure you're implementing my check correctly without removing any critical information from the analysis.

 

[wyc2333]

oh i didn't know how to implement a GP check bc i was new here. now i think i have implemented it "correctly" lol

 

[Lumari]

remove add / fix (comments); (AC=add comma; RC=remove comma; SC=semicolon)
GP 2/2

check

[OVERVIEW]

Snorlax is a special wall with a great defensive and offensive presence thanks to its Curse set as well as its access to Self-Destruct, which can be crucial for a game, as taking out an extra opposing Pokemon or a sweeper that wants to overpower it can be crucial for a game, Snorlax is a special wall that has a great defensive and offensive presence. While it does have some weaknesses, namely mediocre Defense, low Speed, and the possibility of being hurt by a vulnerability to Spikes and sandstorm, its strong points make it the force that defines ADV OU.

[SET]
name: CurseLax
move 1: Curse
move 2: Rest
move 3: Return / Body Slam
move 4: Shadow Ball / Earthquake / Hidden Power Bug / Hidden Power Steel
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Careful
evs: 144 HP / 96 Atk / 132 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Curse Snorlax can be a secondary check for special attackers such as Zapdos because it is usually buffeted by Sandstorm and doesn't have a reliable way to restore its HP. If Curse Snorlax is the last Pokemon on your team, there will be a strong possibility that you can make a comeback, as Snorlax can boost up and beat down phazers such as Skarmory, Suicune, and something the rare like Steelix, which can no longer use Whirlwind or Roar against it.

Curse and Rest are obligatory moves. Since Curse Snorlax usually works as a late-game Pokemon and doesn't care about spreading paralysis as much as KOing the foe, Return is generally chosen. However, Body Slam can paralyze the opponent's Pokemon, which provides is still an option for overall utility. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, and Magneton. Shadow Ball hits Gengar, Celebi, and Starmie for super effective damage. Hidden Power Bug strikes Celebi and Tyranitar. Hidden Power Steel not only hits Gengar (RC) but also has the benefit of hitting Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Sleep Talk prevents Snorlax from being helpless during its two turns of Rest, though it's a niche set option because of sleep turns resetting if Sleep Talk is used before switching out. Shadow Ball + Earthquake provides wide coverage, but Suicune can set up on and take out Snorlax lacking a STAB move faster than Snorlax can kill it, and even other special attackers such as Zapdos and Moltres can score critical hits if Snorlax spends too many turns attempting to take them out.

Immunity is generally the preferred ability because it prevents Snorlaxfrom being poisoned and allows Snorlax to deal with Toxic users such as Blissey, Zapdos, Magneton, Milotic, and Porygon2, thus becoming a status pivot. Thick Fat has its niche because Moltres does a lot of damage to Snorlax with its Fire-type STAB moves, but Toxic is more common in modern ADV OU.

The specified EVs allow Snorlax to guarantee a 3HKO on near-maximum physically bulky Suicune with +1 Return after sandstorm damage. Snorlax with 144 HP and 136 Special Defense EVs walls help Snorlax wall special attackers such as Zapdos and Suicune better. If your Snorlax runs Body Slam, you may wish to consider a spread of running 116 Attack EVs and an Adamant nature to OHKO 4 HP Dugtrio. If you need a better matchup against physical attacks, Impish will be an ideal nature.


Team Options
=========
Above all, Magneton is almost always paired with Curse Snorlax for its ability to take out Skarmory, Magneton, and a weakened or Choice Band Choice-locked Metagross that is locked into Meteor Mash, Rock Slide, or Double-Edge. (p sure the point is just "not Earthquake" / a resisted move?) Magneton can also run Rain Dance or Sunny Day, thus letting Snorlax avoid being buffeted by sandstorm. A Pursuit user such as Tyranitar traps Gengar, thus creating a juncture for Snorlax without Shadow Ball to sweep late-game. Dugtrio matches well with this set, being able to trap Celebi and Heracross as well as Steel-types such as Metagross, Jirachi, and Magneton. Psychic-types such as Celebi and Claydol are common teammates. The former's Baton Pass can let trappers, namely Magneton and Dugtrio, work more easily, (comma) while the latter can not only remove Spikes with Rapid Spin but also act as a pivot for Electric-type attacks that would normally wear down Snorlax.

[SET]
name: Utility Lax
move 1: Self-Destruct
move 2: Body Slam / Return
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Focus Punch / Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Immunity
nature: Adamant
evs: 92 HP / 116 Atk / 144 Def / 144 SpD / 12 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
STAB Self-Destruct is Snorlax's strongest attack, powerful enough to even damage Rock / Steel types. (is this Aggron? or is it "Rock- or Steel-types"?) Snorlax usually uses Body Slam with this set, especially if it runs standard non-maximum Attack EVs, (AC) because paralyzing Suicune, Tyranitar, Metagross, and Skarmory is quite nice. Return has extra power, and if you invest enough Attack EVs, it can 2HKO some versions of Zapdos. Shadow Ball hits Gengar super effectively if your team doesn't have Pursuit support (RC) and does good damage to Celebi and Starmie. Focus Punch OHKOes Tyranitar on the switch or when it clicks Dragon Dance (RC) and does good damage to Skarmory, though you should be wary of Drill Peck variants. Earthquake hurts Tyranitar, Jirachi, Metagross, and Magneton. Curse + Self-Destruct deals with Skarmory, Tyranitar, and Metagross. Counter is a decent answer to physical attackers such as Metagross.

The specified EVs allow Snorlax to guarantee a KO on 4 HP Dugtrio with Body Slam. The Speed investment makes Snorlax just faster than a paralyzed 394 Speed Pokemon, namely Aerodactyl and Jolteon. If your team wants Snorlax to hit Skarmory harder with Focus Punch, you may want more Attack investment. 24 HP and 184 Special Defense EVs are needed to take Modest 252 Special Attack Zapdos's Thunderbolt and +1 Modest Suicune's Hydro Pump more comfortably.

Team Options
=========
Snorlax without Focus Punch is best suited to a Magneton-aided balance or offense team, especially Magneton-based physical spam. With Hidden Power Fire, Magneton can trap Earthquake Forretress more reliably. If Snorlax runs Focus Punch, it should generally be used on offensive teams without Spikes. Flying-types such as Salamence and Gyarados are great partners because Snorlax appreciates their Fighting-type resistance. If Snorlax can remove its typical counters such as Metagross and Tyranitar, it will be easier to sweep. Pursuit users such as Tyranitar combine with Snorlax excellently, being able to trap Gengar, thus letting Snorlax give up Shadow Ball and use Self-Destruct more comfortably. Although Houndoom is a niche Pokemon, it removes defensive Celebi, which is a solid answer to Snorlax without Hidden Power Bug.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Fire Blast is a traditional answer to Steel-types such as Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross, and Magneton. Brick Break is not as powerful as Focus Punch, but it is an immediate answer against Tyranitar. Thunder is a powerful choice for combatting Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Cloyster, and Skarmory, and it provides a great paralysis rate. However, the accuracy is rather low, so it may be only supported by rain. ("may mandate rain support"?)

Checks and Counters
===================
Most counters depend on Snorlax's set.

Skarmory, Metagross, and defensive Celebi are some of the biggest checks to Snorlax. Skarmory can come in, set up Spikes, and phaze it away Snorlax. If Snorlax doesn't have Earthquake, it won't do much damage to Metagross. Without Hidden Power Bug or a boost from Curse, Snorlax cannot easily 2HKO Celebi, which means it can outstall Snorlax with Leech Seed and Recover. It also shrugs off Body Slam paralysis thanks to Natural Cure and Heal Bell. To prevent itself from losing to a Snorlax with Rest, Celebi can set up Calm Mind and take down Snorlax with Psychic, as long as it is safe with Recover. Anyway, However, it needs to be wary of Self-Destruct.

Besides Skarmory and Metagross, other Steel / Rock types Steel- or Rock-types resist Snorlax's STAB attacks. Snorlax without Earthquake will be setup fodder for Calm Mind Jirachi, but Wish Jirachi can only reliably deal with the Curse non-Earthquake set. Under sand, Magnet Magneton can make Snorlax use Rest repeatedly and beat the utility lax set without if it's not running Earthquake or Brick Break. Forretress can run Explosion or Counter to handle the utility lax set, though it must be wary of Fire Blast and Curse versions. Something The seldom-used (RH) like Steelix can run Roar to phaze Snorlax and Explosion to do a ton of damage to it. If Snorlax doesn't have Focus Punch or Brick Break, it can be setup fodder for Dragon Dance Tyranitar, which also kicks up a sandstorm, which is very important for teams that lack a reliable Curse Snorlax counter to prevent it from setting up comfortably. Although Aerodactyl may be scared of being paralyzed by Snorlax's Body Slam, it can click Rock Slide to possibly make Snorlax flinch. Knock Off / Harden / Rest Armaldo is the greatest counter of all time to Snorlax, though it's uncommon.

Virtually any Snorlax set is walled early-game by Suicune, which can remove its Curse boosts with Roar. However, Suicune gets worn down by hits pretty quickly, and Snorlax can do some major damage to it with Self-Destruct.

If Snorlax doesn't have the right moves for Gengar, it will be beaten. However, note that Curse Snorlax can outstall Gengar that lack Taunt or Perish Song, even if it doesn't have anything to hit Gengar with.

Fighting-types make for offensive checks or counters to Snorlax. None can repeatedly come in on STAB Return, Body Slam, or Double-Edge and live to tell the tale, but they can switch into predicted Rests, Curses, and, to an extent, Snorlax's coverage attacks. Afterward, (AC) Fighting-types can capitalize on its Snorlax's relatively poor Defense. Importantly, Focus Punch will hurt Snorlax even after multiple Curse boosts. Heracross puts a big dent in Snorlax with Focus Punch, Brick Break, and Megahorn. Machamp and Hariyama are also decent checks.

Weezing is physically bulky enough to take most boosted hits and can use Pain Split to feed off Snorlax's higher HP. Furthermore, Weezing has access to moves such as Haze, which will eliminate any boosts Snorlax can muster from Curse. Besides, Weezing's Will-O-Wisp will harshly reduce Snorlax's Attack while also causing a little damage. Weezing can hit relatively hard with Sludge Bomb, and if required, turn to Explosion to finish off Snorlax.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[wyc2333, 336830]]
- Quality checked by: [[Triangles, 118250], [vapicuno, 5454]]
- Grammar checked by: [[deetah, 297659], [, ]]

 

[wyc2333]

implemented. ready to be uploaded

 

[Excal]

Uploading