Snorlax [QC 2/2] [GP 0/2]

[alaserdolphin]

[SET]
Name: Poison Heal
Move 1: Facade
Move 2: Protect
Move 3: Curse
Move 4: Darkest Lariat / Earthquake
Item: Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Snorlax serves as an excellent tank in the Almost Any Ability format. With its excellent base 160 HP along with its very respectable base 110 Special Defense, very few special attackers can easily threaten it. Being a Normal-type also further aids Snorlax’s safety in the face of special attackers, given the overall lack of special Fighting-type moves. However, it must be careful of particularly strong attackers like Noivern and Blacephalon, two Pokemon that can still do considerable damage. Having access to an active Poison Heal allows it to freely switch in on status spreaders, giving it a free turn to set up. Snorlax’s main attacking move is Facade, used for its synergy with Poison Heal, along with the added benefit of STAB. Protect gives Snorlax an opportunity to make sure it poisons itself on its first turn out and can be used to both scout moves and provide additional recovery. Curse allows it to not only wall foes but be an offensive presence as well. The defensive boost also gives it some additional physical bulk, which it otherwise lacks. The final slot is usually Darkest Lariat, giving Snorlax a reliable way to hit Mew and Ghost-types. In some circumstances, Earthquake is used to pressure Tyranitar, Cobalion, and Terrakion, which would otherwise resist Snorlax's Normal/Dark coverage.
Snorlax’s EVs are distributed to maximize its HP and Special Defense by having 252 HP EVs and 252 SpD EVs, along with a Careful nature. The extra 4 EVs go into Attack to marginally improve its offensive presence. Snorlax also maintains a valuable role in being able to handily stop bulky specially-offensive setup sweepers like Tapu Fini, Volcarona, and Togekiss. If the opponent over-extends in their setup against Snorlax, it allows Snorlax an excellent opportunity to counter-sweep.

Poison Heal means that Pokemon fearing Thunder Wave, etc. have a very safe switch-in to those moves. Snorlax also is excellent at absorbing Knock Off hits (after being poisoned) and potential burns from moves like Scald. Mandibuzz really likes having a safe Pokemon to take on opposing special attackers, which can often threaten it. Snorlax is very susceptible to physical Fighting-type Pokemon. Regenerator Terrakion in particular is a massive threat and a very potent counter. Snorlax really appreciates teammates like Tapu Fini and Mew, which can safely switch in on physical attackers. Tapu Fini in particular can use Haze on setup sweepers and switch in on opposing Unaware Mandibuzz, which otherwise walls Snorlax. Mew can run Body Press sets to easily take care of foes like Terrakion and opposing Steel-Types.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Snorlax can opt to not run Protect in favor of another attack, but this often is very risky due to the additional fear of being hit by a Knock Off before its Toxic Orb activates.
Heat Crash can be ran over Darkest Lariat or Earthquake to be a better offensive threat to non-Flash Fire variants of Corviknight, Ferrothorn and Doublade.

Checks and Counters
=============
**Fighting-Types**: Fighting-Types are undoubtedly the primary threat to Snorlax. Their ability to hit super effectively and capitalize on Snorlax’s weaker Defense stat almost always forces it to switch out. Terrakion in particular resists Facade and Darkest Lariat, adding yet another layer of threat to Snorlax.
**Unaware Pokemon**: Snorlax really benefits from its boosts for attacking, and Unaware neutralizes that. Corviknight and Mandibuzz are two Pokemon that can be problematic and must be accounted for elsewhere in the team. In addition, Snorlax’s Defense boosts are ignored by Unaware, meaning that it could be threatened by a physical wallbreaker / Psyshock user that much more.
**Doublade** Regenerator Doublade is a great Snorlax counter: it can easily outlive even +1 Darkest Lariats by taking advantage of its ability. Offensively, it can threaten to OHKO through Curse with +2 Sacred Sword.

**Ability-Changing**: Snorlax is definitely threatened by moves like Skill Swap, Gastro Acid, and Worry Seed; Pokemon like Toxapex, Chansey/Blissey, Ferrothorn, Mew, and Palossand often run these moves to check Poison Heal. Mummy/Wandering Spirit users like Hippowdon and Corviknight can also be problematic for similar reasons - it's best to scout for these threats early to avoid unnecessary Toxic damage.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[alaserdolphin, 303191]]
- Quality checked by: [[Thinkerino, 375662], [The Number Man, 475804]]
- Grammar checked by: [[username1, userid1]]

 

[Isaiah]

Add, Remove, Conjecture

[SET]
Name: Poison Heal CurseLax
Move 1: Facade
Move 2: Protect
Move 3: Curse
Move 4: Darkest Lariat / Earthquake
Item: Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Careful
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Snorlax serves as an excellent tank in the Almost Any Ability format. With its excellent base 160 HP along with its very respectable base 110 Special Defense, very few special attackers can easily threaten it. Being a Normal-typeIts typing also further aids Snorlax’s safety in the face of special attackers, given the overall lack of special Fighting-type moves. Having access to an active Poison Heal allows it to freely switch in on status spreaders, giving it a free turn to set up.
(Since we don't want to overstate Snorlax's capabilities as a special wall, maybe mention how it can struggle versus particularly strong attacks from things like Specs Aerilate Noivern and Mind Blown Blacephalon)

Snorlax’s main attacking move is Facade, used for its synergy with Poison Heal, along with the added benefit of STAB. Protect gives Snorlax an opportunity to make sure it poisons itself on its first turn out and can be used to both scout moves and provide additional recovery. Curse allows it to not only wall foes but be an offensive presence as well. The defensive boost also gives it some additional physical bulk, which it otherwise lacks. The final slot is usually Darkest Lariat, giving Snorlax a reliable way to hit Mew and Ghost-types. In some circumstances, Earthquake is used to provide pressure to Pokemon like Tyranitar, Cobalion, and Terrakion, which would otherwise resist Snorlax's Normal/Dark coverage..

Snorlax’s EVs are distributed to maximize its HP and Special Defense. Having 248 HP EVs instead of 252 provides it with an odd HP amount and the extra 4 EVs allow it a slightly better offensive presence.

Pokemon weak to special attackers, especially Ghost-type attackers ("Ghost-type attackers" is a bit overstated considering Snorlax really only consistently beats Spectrier. Gengar can still Focus Blast through it, and Blacephalon can deal >50% with Mind Blown and nearly OHKO with Explosion) heavily benefit from Snorlax as a teammate. Poison Heal also means that Pokemon fearing Thunder Wave, etc. have a very safe switch-in to those moves. Add something about how active Poison Heal makes Snorlax a Knock Off/Scald absorber since it doesn't mind losing item after getting pheal active and is effectively immune to scald burns. Mandibuzz really likes having a safe Pokemon to take on opposing special attackers, which can often threaten it.

Snorlax is very susceptible to physical Fighting-type Pokemon. Regenerator Terrakion in particular is a massive threat and a very potent counter. Snorlax really appreciates teammates like Tapu Fini and Mew, which can easily switch in on physical attackers. Tapu Fini in particular can use Haze on setup sweepers and switch in on opposing Unaware Mandibuzz, which otherwise walls Snorlax. Mew can run Body Press sets to easily take care of foes like Terrakion and opposing Steel-Types.

(This all needs to be condensed into two paragraphs total)
[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Snorlax can opt to not run Protect in favor of another attack, but this often is very risky due to the additional fear of being hit by a Knock Off before its Toxic Orb activates. Pokemon like Bewear could theoretically also be STAB Facade Poison Heal users, but its lacking bulk and added Fighting-typing make Bewear much less effective as a wall.

Checks and Counters
=============
**Fighting-Types**: Fighting-Types are easily the primary threat to Snorlax. Their ability to hit super effectively and capitalize on Snorlax’s weaker Defense stat almost always force it to switch out. Terrakion in particular resists Facade and Darkest Lariat, adding yet another layer of threat to Snorlax.
**Unaware Pokemon**: Snorlax really benefits from its boosts for attacking, and Unaware (Give some examples--Mandibuzz and Corviknight are two decent ones) neutralizes that. In addition, Snorlax’s Defense boosts are ignored by Unaware, meaning that it could be threatened by a physical wallbreaker / Psyshock user that much more.

**Add something about Ability-changing moves (Skill Swap, Gastro Acid, Worry Seed--users like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Chansey/Blissey, Mew, Palossand)**

**Add something about Mummy/Wandering Spirit users (Hippowdon, Corviknight)**
[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[alaserdolphin, 303191]]
- Quality checked by: [[Thinkerino, 375662], [username2, userid2]]
- Grammar checked by: [[username1, userid1]]

It's certainly a great start! I'd just like to see these changes made before accepting it
QC Reject 1/2

 

[alaserdolphin]

Add, Remove, Conjecture



It's certainly a great start! I'd just like to see these changes made before accepting it
QC Reject 1/2

Updated. Thanks for the help!

 

[Isaiah]

Looks good!

One last thing...

Having 248 HP EVs instead of 252 provides it with an odd HP amount and the extra 4 EVs allow it a slightly better offensive presence.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's necessary to explain the odd HP unless there's a specific reason other than switching into rocks 5 times, right?

QC 1/2

 

[alaserdolphin]

Looks good!

One last thing...


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's necessary to explain the odd HP unless there's a specific reason other than switching into rocks 5 times, right?

QC 1/2

Hazard Damage is far and away the biggest one, but there are a few very niche others:

Moves like Nature’s Madness and Super Fang
Curse
Helmet/Barbs/Skin (this is probably the only other set of things you'll interact with)
Weather chip damage
Basically anything (and I'm sure there are exceptions) that works in fractions. If someone were to opt for some crazy Belly Drum set, etc., I guess that'd mean they could get two drums under sand/hail?

Essentially, if someone were to ask, the answer would be "extra switch-ins to hazards". There are a few others, but, frankly, anyone who is worrying about an extra turn against Curse damage probably is crazy enough knows enough about Pokémon to not be unaware of these kinds of situations.

 

[alaserdolphin]

Updated post to reflect Spectrier's ban.

 

[NidoTheKing]

I know it's not my place to judge or critique here, but I feel like giving a few of my personal opinions on this unit.

Nature: Careful
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD

This is a waste of EVs.
You want Snorlax's Hp to always be divisible by 8, or divisible by 8 + 1 if you really want an odd number, to maximize its recovery. The only reason to not do so on a Pokemon with already-gigantic Hp is to maximize how well it tanks attacks on a specific side, in this case Special Attacks, which is almost completely unnecessary for Snorlax. I cannot think of many, if any, special attacker that a full SpDef investment would require, as they're either too strong for that heavy investment to matter much or not strong enough to need such a steep investment. The small Atk creep is mostly insignificant as well, as you'll just be boosting up to numbers where such a small value would make little to no difference anyway.

What you want to do is invest on mixed bulk. That way, you provide a buffer for Snorlax's Defense before it boosts up, letting it withstand more punishment as it snowballs out of control with what would almost feel like a mini-Curse boost before boosting compared to having no Defense investment. Furthermore, doing so is possible because you are able to shave off unnecessary investment to its Special Defense that frankly wouldn't prevent it from walling any more besides extremely situational and niche special attacks.

I use a custom EV spread of 204 HP / 208 Def / 96 SpD with a Careful Nature. This spread minimizes the overall damage Snorlax takes all while gives it an HP stat divisible by 8 for maximum recovery (if you want the odd number for passive damage, then 208 Hp / 204 Def / 96 SpD works too), lets it tank many more physical attacks than it would otherwise, and leaving enough Special Defense investment to not be 2HKOed by Timid Life Orb Blacephelon's Mind Blown, one of the most relevant unboosted Special Attackers available imo, at full health with Protect and Poison Heal recovery.

Just to prove how much more efficient such an EV spread can be for Snorlax than the original one by using Life Orb Blacephelon as the primary example:

Damage calc comparison

BEFORE
4 Atk Life Orb Blacephalon Explosion vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 408-481 (78 - 91.9%)
4 Atk Life Orb Blacephalon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 159-187 (30.4 - 35.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 242-285 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

AFTER
4 Atk Life Orb Blacephalon Explosion vs. 204 HP / 208 Def Snorlax: 311-367 (60.7 - 71.6%)
4 Atk Life Orb Blacephalon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 208 Def Snorlax: 121-143 (23.6 - 27.9%)
252 SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 204 HP / 96+ SpD Snorlax: 274-324 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal + Protect

That's around a 22% boost against incoming physical attacks, all for around a 16% drop in Special Defense, made mostly negligible by Protect.

Now, this is admittedly coming from someone who isn't too familiar with the current AAA meta, so if there is a common special attacker that the maximum investment warrants having against, I'll accept being wrong on this one and move on. But as it stands, unless there is a legit reason for it, I sincerely find no benefit to pooling all of this investment into an area that seemingly wastes all of its potential at once.

Other Options
=============
Snorlax can opt to not run Protect in favor of another attack, but this often is very risky due to the additional fear of being hit by a Knock Off before its Toxic Orb activates.

That's not necessarily true, Snorlax technically could run other moves... just not the ones you think.

First off: Protect is mandatory, end of discussion. Not only for scouting and safely activating Toxic Orb, but if anything else you need it for the free recovery turns that allows you to tank so many hits, and should never be cut for that reason alone.

Second, that doesn't mean other options aren't there. The truth is that the last slot is only being used for coverage against those who easily stand against boosted Facades that can even outdamage x2 resists (so Ghost types and like Stakataka I guess). Strangely enough though, you really don't need another attacking move other than Darkest Lariat.

Let me start by saying I don't like Earthquake on Snorlax at all for several reasons. Not only would most of your targets that are weak to Earthquake and wouldn't mind Facade be running Levitate anyway, but most of the time if you're using Earthquake for coverage, you may as well just be spamming Facade anyway. As for the three examples you gave (Terrakion, Cobalion, and Tyranitar), you are not beating Terrakion 1v1 unless you've already accumulated enough boosts to where just using Facade would end up being enough, I legit have no clue what Cobalion runs in AAA or if it's ran at all so I have no say, and the only time where Earthquake against TTar is relevant is if TTar is running Curse + Body Press (which I cannot confirm or deny how popular it is), otherwise it's a stalemate for TTar at absolute best. Safe to say: Earthquake is more of an Other Option than a whole slash, as it's a way more situational tool than Darkest Lariat at best.

If you're not afraid of forgoing the Ghost coverage, you actually have some other tools you could use, primarily for screwing with Snorlax's worst matchups: Heavy/Specialized defensive strategies. Toxic is a really useful tool for screwing over more common walls like Unaware Mandibuzz or Chansey and turns some Ghost matchups against Snorlax into a living hell anyway. Although Magic Bounce isn't affected, not only do you not care about it being bounced back yourself, but you could potentially turn that into your favor by slinging a Toxic towards it after they preemptively removed your Toxic Orb. Besides, most of the time Magic Bounce and other Poison Heal mons can be outlasted by your bulk and Poison Heal and taken out by your Facades. Rock Smash is an odd choice, but it lets you pseudo-boost past Unaware mons trying to exploit your reliance on Curse boosts, and it can give TTar a headache if you really want to. Finally, Encore is strange on such a slow Pokemon, but it punishes the opponent's Haze users, setup attempts, or walls with little offensive prowess by forcing some of them into a lose-lose situation.

 

[The Number Man]

Remove Comment Add

[SET]
Name: Poison Heal
Move 1: Facade
Move 2: Protect
Move 3: Curse
Move 4: Darkest Lariat / Earthquake
Item: Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Careful
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD OR 236 HP / 20 Def / 252 SpD I think an even hp amount is better for PH mons. I actually run 236 HP 20 Def 252 SpD myself, to ensure 520 HP (divisible by 8 so maximises PH recovery) and dump the rest in defense, but I don't think that's standard by any means. In any case, I'd prefer the stat spread to be the standard max max 4 or if we decide to put a custom spread to use mine, as I've been using that ever since DLC 1 and it maximises defensive presence on paper.

[SET COMMENTS]
Snorlax serves as an excellent tank in the Almost Any Ability format. With its excellent base 160 HP along with its very respectable base 110 Special Defense, very few special attackers can easily threaten it. Being a Normal-type also further aids Snorlax’s safety in the face of special attackers, given the overall lack of special Fighting-type moves. However, it must be careful of particularly strong attackers like Noivern and Blacephalon, two Pokemon that can still do considerable damage. Having access to an active Poison Heal allows it to freely switch in on status spreaders, giving it a free turn to set up. Snorlax’s main attacking move is Facade, used for its synergy with Poison Heal, along with the added benefit of STAB. Protect gives Snorlax an opportunity to make sure it poisons itself on its first turn out and can be used to both scout moves and provide additional recovery. Curse allows it to not only wall foes but be an offensive presence as well. The defensive boost also gives it some additional physical bulk, which it otherwise lacks. The final slot is usually Darkest Lariat, giving Snorlax a reliable way to hit Mew and Ghost-types. In some circumstances, Earthquake is used to pressure Tyranitar, Cobalion, and Terrakion, which would otherwise resist Snorlax's Normal/Dark coverage.
Snorlax’s EVs are distributed to maximize its HP and Special Defense. Having 248 HP EVs instead of 252 provides it with an odd HP amount and the extra 4 EVs allow it a slightly better offensive presence. 252 HP and 252 SpD EVs with a Careful nature maximises Snorlax's special bulk, while the remaining 4 EVs are put into Atk for slightly stronger Facades. OR 236 HP EVs ensure Lax hits an HP amount that is divisible by 8, thus maximising Poison Heal recovery. The rest of the EVs maximise special bulk, while slightly increasing Lax's unboosted physical bulk.
Im not exactly sure where to put this, but I'd like a short paragraph to be added explaining Snorlax's utility in being an antiwincon/countersetup option vs various troublesome setup mons that bypass usual methods of counterplay in AAA. Something like:
Snorlax's greatest strength is perhaps in being able to serve as a counter to opposing specially offensive bulky wincons that usually can not be stopped simply by pivoting into a faster revenge killer, such as Tapu Fini, Volcarona and Togekiss. Snorlax's immense special bulk coupled with Poison Heal recovery means that it will always prevent these pokemon from sweeping, while simultaneously threating to countersweep if the opposing player gives it too many turns of setup.
Poison Heal means that Pokemon fearing Thunder Wave, etc. have a very safe switch-in to those moves. Snorlax also is excellent at absorbing Knock Off hits (after being poisoned) and potential burns from moves like Scald. Mandibuzz really likes having a safe Pokemon to take on opposing special attackers, which can often threaten it. Snorlax is very susceptible to physical Fighting-type Pokemon. Regenerator Terrakion in particular is a massive threat and a very potent counter. Snorlax really appreciates teammates like Tapu Fini and Mew, which can easily switch in on physical attackers. Tapu Fini in particular can use Haze on setup sweepers and switch in on opposing Unaware Mandibuzz, which otherwise walls Snorlax. Mew can run Body Press sets to easily take care of foes like Terrakion and opposing Steel-Types.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Snorlax can opt to not run Protect in favor of another attack, but this often is very risky due to the additional fear of being hit by a Knock Off before its Toxic Orb activates. Heat Crash can be ran as the coverage move of choice in order to hit non Flash Fire variants of Corviknight, Ferrothorn and Doublade extremely hard.

Checks and Counters
=============
**Fighting-Types**: Fighting-Types are easily the primary threat to Snorlax. Their ability to hit super effectively and capitalize on Snorlax’s weaker Defense stat almost always force it to switch out. Terrakion in particular resists Facade and Darkest Lariat, adding yet another layer of threat to Snorlax.
**Unaware Pokemon**: Snorlax really benefits from its boosts for attacking, and Unaware neutralizes that. Corviknight and Mandibuzz are two Pokemon that can be problematic and must be accounted for elsewhere in the team. In addition, Snorlax’s Defense boosts are ignored by Unaware, meaning that it could be threatened by a physical wallbreaker / Psyshock user that much more.
**Doublade** Regenerator Doublade is a very good Snorlax counter, as it can easily shrug off even +1 Darkest Lariats with Regenerator recovery, while threatening to OHKO through Curse boosts with +2 Sacred Sword.

**Ability-Changing**: Snorlax is easily threatened by moves like Skill Swap, Gastro Acid, and Worry Seed; Pokemon like Toxapex, Chansey/Blissey, Ferrothorn, Mew, and Palossand often run these moves to check Poison Heal. Mummy/Wandering Spirit users like Hippowdon and Corviknight can also be problematic for similar reasons - it's best to scout for these threats early to avoid unnecessary Toxic damage.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[alaserdolphin, 303191]]
- Quality checked by: [[Thinkerino, 375662], [username2, userid2]]
- Grammar checked by: [[username1, userid1]]

QC Reject 2/2
I'd like the paragraph about beating opposing bulky special wincons be added, as that's one of the best parts of Lax imo. Additionally, Doublade needs to be mentioned as it's one of the best counters after Terrakion. That would be enough for me to approve the submission. The EV stuff im less passionate about so I could be convinced to drop that. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[alaserdolphin]

Remove Comment Add

QC Reject 2/2
I'd like the paragraph about beating opposing bulky special wincons be added, as that's one of the best parts of Lax imo. Additionally, Doublade needs to be mentioned as it's one of the best counters after Terrakion. That would be enough for me to approve the submission. The EV stuff im less passionate about so I could be convinced to drop that. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

I updated the OP with your suggestions; I rephrased things a bit to make sure the teacher couldn't tell I copied your homework so tell me what you think!
In regards to changes:
- I think specifically mentioning bulky special wincons was a great idea! After Spectrier was removed, I just cut out its whole chunk, but I never adjusted to mention other specific special attackers it does wall.
- No clue how I missed Doublade; added that to the threats.
- I originally included your PH spread and the relevant text, but it just made the whole thing even chunkier than it already is -if it can still afford to have an extra bit of text, then I'd be happy to add it!

 

[The Number Man]

I updated the OP with your suggestions; I rephrased things a bit to make sure the teacher couldn't tell I copied your homework so tell me what you think!
In regards to changes:
- I think specifically mentioning bulky special wincons was a great idea! After Spectrier was removed, I just cut out its whole chunk, but I never adjusted to mention other specific special attackers it does wall.
- No clue how I missed Doublade; added that to the threats.
- I originally included your PH spread and the relevant text, but it just made the whole thing even chunkier than it already is -if it can still afford to have an extra bit of text, then I'd be happy to add it!

Oh lmao. Well it looks good to me now, no need to change back to that. QC 2/2 approved!

 

[in the hills]

This analysis is no longer relevant in the AAA metagame following Poison Heal's ban.

Archiving