Species Clause

[Havak]

I've been hearing about (and seeing) a few people using whole teams of Rotom on the Standard Ladder, or teams using more than one forme of Deoxys on the Ubers Ladder.

I'm pretty sure this isn't allowed, because IMO it breaks the species clause since they're basically the same Pokémon. But should it be allowed?

At the moment I've just been telling people not to do this in ladder matches, but I'm not 100% sure if I'm right in doing so.

Also, kickable offence? Or worse?

 

[RBG]

This is a discussion i've been having with others recently, in which I say that species clause says you can have:

~Only 1 Rotom form
~Only 1 Wormadam form
~Only 1 Deoxys form.
~Only 1 Giratina form
~Only 1 Shaymin form

That is how species clause works in the game, so that is how we should emulate it on shoddy.

I remember doug once saying that it would be easy to impliment a CAP clause on the CAP server where only 1 CAP could be used at a time. Maybe doug could add that code into the code that checks for species clause?

Edit, but in reply to your question, i think it should be kickable if they have been warned but dont do anything about it.

 

[Calciphoce]

That is how species clause works in the game, so that is how we should emulate it on shoddy.

Then there is no question that it shouldn't be allowed. We are trying to simulate the game while also creating a workable battle environment. Since it doesn't get in the way of making a workable battle environment, there is no reason not to implement this.

 

[Caelum]

That is how species clause works in the game, so that is how we should emulate it on shoddy.

Could you explain how this works RB Golbat (sorry for my ignorance)? I wasn't even aware species clause was enforced in-game. Is there a selection you can make before entering a wifi battle that somehow enforces species clause?

Once I get the answer to that I'll comment :).

 

[RBG]

Could you explain how this works RB Golbat (sorry for my ignorance)? I wasn't even aware species clause was enforced in-game. Is there a selection you can make before entering a wifi battle that somehow enforces species clause?

Once I get the answer to that I'll comment :).

To be fair, I am using the Battle Towers only one species rule. I have attempted to take all three wormadam into the Battle Tower and it would not let me. This is, of course, untestable with Shaymin, Dexoys and Giratina, but i have no doubt that they would all be treated the same.

 

[Havak]

Yeah, this is where Species Clause becomes more of a "Competitive" rule, rather than an in-game rule IMO.

Nintendo Tournaments and Battle Tower implement Species Clause and Item Clause, however, Competitive rules keep the Species Clause but not the Item Clause.

That's how we play the game at the moment, and unless that changes using more than one Forme per team is banned.

 

[Mekkah]

Why are we following Battle Tower rules for Species Clause but not, for example, when it comes to banning Pokemon or moves? It seems inconsequent to me. To me, all these Wormadam, Deoxys, Shaymin, Giratina and Rotom forms seem different enough to be allowed to be on one team.

 

[Caelum]

Hm. I was tired and wasn't thinking clearly so my position that I stated in my post wasn't accurate even remotely (I wasn't sure what I was thinking to be honest), so I deleted it. I think when we talk about "Species Clause" we need to look at it from a larger perspective. I think we can use the Battle Tower guidelines as an aid but it shouldn't be the primary influence on Smogon's decision over this.

He's my short little proposal, for judging over all in a somewhat technical way.
I think whether or not something should be allowed under Species Clause, or whether or not the different "forms" are different enough to permit under Species Clause, should be judged by their Typing, Stat Distribution, Ability, and Move Pool.

Typing wise, if the different forms typing are different they should be for all purposes considered different Pokemon. Typing is such a major part of a Pokemon, determining STAB boosts, weaknesses, etc. that if something has different typing that distinguishes it significantly enough to allow under Species Clause. So, the question that would arise with respect to this are Wormadam's forms and Shaymin's forms different enough with respect to their typing?

For stat distribution, do the stats completely modify the use of the Pokemon? I'd say, in general, this is true. Deoxys-A plays entirely different then Deoxys-D. For all practical purposes they are entirely different Pokemon. Giratina is a bit more iffy on this grounds, but then again, it's had such little play testing it's hard to determine.

Ability: If the abilities change, the Pokemon changes, but is the change enough? For example, if Skarmory uses Sturdy instead of Keen Eye it's still Skarmory. However, if Shaymin get's Serene Grace as opposed to Natural Cure, the Pokeon is played entirely different now.

Movepool wise, do the move pools make them so significantly different that they play in different ways? The Rotom's fall under this category, however, it is a one move difference that seperate them. Is that different enough?

I'd say that Rotom and Giratina are the only questionable thing right now. The others in question should probably be allowed on teams since they play so differently they are , for all practical purposes, entirely different Pokemon. It probably requires more play testing to distinguish the cases of Giratina and Rotom to make a proper conclusion though.

 

[gengod]

I would rather have it that only one Pokemon per species be allowed per team regardless as to wheter the forms are played differently or not. Take Deoxys for example. Deoxys D is played entirely different from Deoxys-A due to it's stat distribution, but what happens when we play with Deoxys-N and Deoxys-A on the same team? That difference is now very miniscule. The same with the Giratina forms which can more or less run the same exact stats and movesets.

As far as the Rotom forms are concerned, the only thing different between them is a sprite and one move, hardly different enough to be allowed to have more than one of them per team.

The only forms I would consider allowing are the two Shaymin forms since they are just "so" different but it would seem rather arbitrary to allow both Shaymin forms to be on one team and not everything else with another form.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I don't want to diverge from the base Shoddy code, if I don't have to. If we really think species clause should be changed, open a topic in Policy Review and let's try to get a community consensus. I think the new Rotom forms introduce a new twist on the problem that didn't really exist before. In DP, the Deoxys forms were very different, and Wormadam is never used. Rotom is not so cut and dry.

If we discuss it in Policy Review, we may come to a clear conclusion -- and Colin might update the base Shoddy Species Clause (it's not a difficult programming change). If Official disagrees with the conclusion, and we want to proceed anyway - then I can easily make a change on the Smogon server. But, I think we should host an open discussion for the entire competitive Pokemon community first.

 

[Mekkah]

I think it would be easiest to just move this thread to Policy Review instead, so that there's no need for everyone to repeat themselves. Does anyone mind?

 

[RBG]

i support moving this, since we already started talking about it.

And after thinking about it, many of the clauses we add are not implemented at all in the game (OHKO, Evasion, Sleep, Freeze, ect..) so me wanting to implement it the way the game does is me using an argument that doesn't make sense.

I guess i will need to make the arguments based off of how they work.

IN THEORY, Silcoon and Cascoon on a team violate species clause, since there is nothing diffrent about them. However, All of the new alternate forms have some differences between each other that effect how they are played. The closest problem we would have is Deoxys-N and Deoxys-A but I still have no problem with allowing more than one alternate form on a team now that I actually think about it.

(yes that is a 180 from my previous post. Mekkah and Caelum made me change my mind.)

 

[Caelum]

Yeah, the discussion has kinda gone a different way and needs to be moved to PR.

The question of Deoxys-N & Deoxys-A doesn't seem to be as big of an issue as everyone is saying it. Why can't an aspect of Species Clause exclude the use of only Deoxys-N & Deoxys-A on a single team? Sure, it's more complicated, but it's certainly not unreasonable as they are essentially the same Pokemon under all considerations. The goal shouldn't be simplicity necessarily, but it should be consistency. I would also be inclined to say the same of the Rotom forms and Giratina, at this point; however, a bit more play testing would probably be appropriate before making a call on this matter.

A simple way to think about it is this. If I'm using Pokemon A, and I replaced it with Pokemon B, would my team change significantly? In the case of Deoxys-N & Deoxys-A, not at all. In the case of Shaymin and Shaymin-s, absolutely (and I did try this actually out of laziness the first day, it doesn't work).

 

[Mekkah]

I have moved this thread over to PR.

The only problem I have with Caelum's proposal is that it makes the rules somewhat complex. Consistency is important, but so is simplicity. Where do we put the border? One time someone said that DD Dragonite and DD Salamence are more similar than Specsmence and DDMence, and yet the former combination is allowed on teams while the latter is not.

I would, for the time being, actually propose that all different forms are allowed on a team together. Only Giratina and Deoxys seem to somewhat controverse the Species Clause, but even if someone decides to use both on their team (which is rare...rarity may not be a viable argument, but it was brought up for Silcoon/Cascoon and Wormadam), I personally am not going to bitch about it. One of the main qualms with removing Species Clause was that the difference between 6 Lucarios with the same nickname could not be told, and that you'd have to tell by residual damage, memory, sets, luck, etc.

Also, Deoxys-N is significantly worse than Deoxys-A. I believe it fails to KO quite a few things, is capable of surviving very very weak assaults though (Knock Off, I believe), and is outsped by Deoxys-S itself. The difference is small, but it's there.

 

[Hipmonlee]

This is ridiculous. They are the same species its a species clause. You cant use them on a team together.

It's not even a gameplay question, it is a fundamental rule.

But even if it were a gameplay question, then what real benefit is there in allowing them to double up? There is basically no gain here. Who is actually going to use Shaymin and Skymin together on a team. And why is Celebi not close enough in that situation?

Have a nice day.

 

[Caelum]

I have moved this thread over to PR.

The only problem I have with Caelum's proposal is that it makes the rules somewhat complex. Consistency is important, but so is simplicity. Where do we put the border? One time someone said that DD Dragonite and DD Salamence are more similar than Specsmence and DDMence, and yet the former combination is allowed on teams while the latter is not.

I agree simplicity is important, but it should be secondary to consistency. I'm going to be the first to admit that the idea of disallowing certain forms used together is more complicated then I'd like, but I still believe there is a place for consistency in the system.

In the case of DD mence and DD Nite (which is even harder to decipher the difference now that both get Outrage), I would argue they are different because they had significantly different stat distributions.

 

[gengod]

I agree with Hip. I honestly don't see a point in allowing more than one form of a Pokemon on the same team. In the end they are still the same species regardless of how they are being played, and how much more simple can it get than "two Pokemon of the same species should not allowed on one team".

 

[Colonel M]

I agree with Hip on this stance. They're the same Pokemon technically despite that they play different (this is talking about the Rotom forms and Deoxys forms). Since the rules of Species Clause is simply "two Pokemon of the same species should not be allowed on one team" then it can easily be interpreted that only one form should be allowed.

 

[TAY]

If we're going to ban one form and allow another of the same pokemon, then for competitive purposes they are different pokemon. The names they were given by Nintendo shouldn't be relevant.

Players should be allowed to use as many rotom/shaymin/deoxys/giratina/wormadam as their hearts desire.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Agreeing with Hipno. They're different forms of the same SPECIES.

 

[Havak]

Just posting again to say I agree with Hip.

 

[RBG]

So let me get this straight, we tier by formes, so why can't we use multiple formes on the same team. I'm not asking the practicality or usefulness of it, I just see it as a double standard. We should either tier by species or by formes, and use that same definition for "Species" clause.

These pokemon are almost like split evolutions in my opnion, the fact that Nintendo made them one species was just to show off fancy programming or make sequel games more likely to be purchased. To me, there ARE differences in these formes, (unlike unown, spinda, gastrodon), which is why they have different index numbers in the game data (which is why I don't support 6 different Arceus with 6 different plates)

 

[Hipmonlee]

Because species clause says that we cant. Whatever reasons Nintendo had for doing this, it doesnt change the fact that they did it. I dont see why we would make things more complicated than they need to be.

Different index numbers in the game data is a pretty obscure fact. I dont see why that would ever have any relevance whatsoever. It seems kinda like an arbitrary cut off point that suits your argument.

As for tiers, it isnt really a double standard, tiers are just a part of our list of things that get banned from OU. What we ban doesnt have to be a specific species. It could be a move or an item or a form of a pokemon. Tiers in that way arent really a part of our rules, they are just a convenient way of letting people know what our ruleset is.

Have a nice day.

 

[Syberia]

Most of the Rotom forms I've been seeing are of the defensive variety and do not even have their special moves. From that standpoint, considering their typing and stats are identical, allowing multiples is exactly like allowing two of the same pokemon, because for all practical purposes, they are the same pokemon.

I still think having the same name and pokedex entry is enough to be considered the same species. Especially in the case of the Rotoms, who can, if they so choose, be exactly the same pokemon. Are we really going to allow a particular UU team to start using both a blue and a pink Gastrodon?

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

If it were up to me, I would allow different forms that had different Base Stats and/or typing on the same team. (not ability alone; Many Pokemon have two abilities, remember.) For example, I would allow Shaymin and Skymin. I would allow Giratina and O-Tina. I would allow all of the Deoxys forms. I would allow all of the Wormadam forms.

HOWEVER, while I would allow the original Rotom and ONE of the alternate Rotom forms, I would NOT allow two alternate Rotom forms.

But alas, it is not up to me. Nintendo has its Species Clause set up the way it is and we must abide by it--if we are truly trying to simulate link battles, anyway.

I do find it interesting that we put different forms in different tiers, though. Deoxys-S is OU, but D and A are Uber. Shaymin is OU, but Skymin has the potential to be Uber. If we are tiering the different forms differently, then there could be cause for treating them as different Pokemon for ALL purposes.