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Looking at something similar, although I had gone with Scarf Xirkitree because:
252 SpA Xirkitree Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Toxapex: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
That said, Tapu Koko does actually edge it out:
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 320-377 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Huh... Well, guess I'll need to make a couple of alterations to the team. Besides that I have Pelipper for Rain, Gastrodon and Scizor for weakness balancing, Persian-A For support and as the Designated Z-Move user (Z-Parting Shot is arguably one of the strongest effects you can get from a Z-Move in VGC) and Tapu Bulu for more weakness Balancing (Although swapping it out with something else to avoid potential Terrain Conflict may be in order.) Nothing too set in stone (items for most of the 'mons are missing and the only thing that's mostly done is the Alolan Persian Set since barring EV calculations it's pretty much good to go.)
But yeah, seems my view on how much Tapu Koko's Thunders can hurt was justified. Well, guess that's something to pay attention to.
Are UBs allowed in this format? That would potentially help a bit regarding team building. Would a Milotic be good to abuse the rain/deter intimidate users? I'm also debating on adding A-Raichu since he benefits in almost any terrain should there be a terrain war, and also has some support in fake out + encore.
I think i'm building almost all of my pokemon as bulky support pokemon instead of Metagross, so I need a little help applying a lot more pressure (Milotic should do that once it gets a competitive boost + rain).
Are UBs allowed in this format? That would potentially help a bit regarding team building. Would a Milotic be good to abuse the rain/deter intimidate users? I'm also debating on adding A-Raichu since he benefits in almost any terrain should there be a terrain war, and also has some support in fake out + encore.
I think i'm building almost all of my pokemon as bulky support pokemon instead of Metagross, so I need a little help applying a lot more pressure (Milotic should do that once it gets a competitive boost + rain).
They haven't said they aren't allowed yet, but there isn't anything that suggests they will be banned. No sense in not considering them in the meantime I guess. It's what, Arcanine, Tauros, Gyarados, Granbul, and Inceniroar for Pokemon with Intimidate? Two are weak to rain, one gets insta-gibb'd by Tapu Koko, and then the remaining ones may be unlikely to see play?
They haven't said they aren't allowed yet, but there isn't anything that suggests they will be banned. No sense in not considering them in the meantime I guess. It's what, Arcanine, Tauros, Gyarados, Granbul, and Inceniroar for Pokemon with Intimidate? Two are weak to rain, one gets insta-gibb'd by Tapu Koko, and then the remaining ones may be unlikely to see play?
That's true, and Metagross has Clear Body, so my team is unaffected by Intimidate at the moment. Aside from Raichu, i'm really at a loss from where to go now :/. I guess i'll try Gastrodon as well since it's great to switch into to take electric hits.
That's true, and Metagross has Clear Body, so my team is unaffected by Intimidate at the moment. Aside from Raichu, i'm really at a loss from where to go now :/. I guess i'll try Gastrodon as well since it's great to switch into to take electric hits.
Maybe if Alolan Raichu had the same HA as its non-Alolan Cousins... Gastro is probably a good fit though, but the glaring 4x weakness to grass is something to keep in mind. (Although you do seem to have a few ways to deal with it.)
So it turns out that there is NO WAY to get VGC legal non-Alola forms, breeding non-Alolan forms from gen 6 will produce Alola form hatchlings. This is actually really stupid because now Dugtrio won't be battle spot legal until remakes/3rd game :(
Well this adds a small new realm of things to consider returning to the VGC meta. Noticeable things are:
Togetic/Togekiss (Follow-Me)
Aegislash
Kingdra (Rain abuser)
Hydreigon (Specs/Scarf Nuker)
Chandelure? (Trick roomer)
Gothitelle (Perish Trap)
Conkeldurr (Loses Drain Punch + Mach Punch)
Staraptor?
Reuniclus (Trick roomer, loses Helping Hand)
Now I can definetly see my team consisting of Metagross/Kingdra (or Hydreigon)/Tapu Koko as a Rain Fantasy core w/Pelipper, A-Raichu, and a filler pokemon.
Didn't really go through the entire team, but I don't think Focus Blast is a good move choice on Tapu Lele in VGC. 70% accurate moves just aren't that good even if they do provide good coverage. Tapu Lele gets enough other moves such as Calm Mind, Shadow Ball, etc that you don't need to run an inaccurate move such as Focus Blast. Also, why don't Wishiwashi and Marowak have protect?.
So i'm actually having fun building my team (although I have a lot of 4 Moveslot Syndrome), I would apreciate if anyone could sort of help me finish or rate with what I have so far.
Tapu Koko @ Electric Seed/Shuca Berry/Terrain Extender
Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP/148 Def/72 Sp.Def/36 Spe
Tapu Koko serves as a sort of Anti-lead like Thundurus was back in the days. Taunt is there to shut down Trick Room/slower statuses, Roost for longevity, and Nature's Madness to help whittle something down for make way for a teammate to finish it off. Thunder or Thunderbolt do respectable damage in Electric Terrain uninvested, and combined with Nature's Madness, he should be able to handle his own. Thunder wave can be used otherwise to cripple something that may be a threat for the team, but I don't think status will be as common thanks to Misty Terrain. The EV spread barely survives Jolly LO Garchomp EQ, while also speed creeping Adamant LO Garchomp (but you get OHKOed), and the rest is dumped into Sp.Def. I was debating on one of the two items mentioned to help him stay in a little longer, leaning towards the Electric Seed as it helps his Defense overall.
With Pelipper's new ability, he provides Rain fairly reliably, and is able to U-turn out to keep a little momentum (altough switching works better against faster threats). 100% accurate Hurricanes are nice, and rain boosted scalds are no joke (especially with a shot to burn). Wide Guard and protect are there either for team support, or because it's a double battle. Nature and EVs is just a random split that I think makes it fairly bulky while also able to function in the case of a Trick Room.
Now this is one of the stars of the team (heh, get it)? Starmie is able to dish out INSANE damage thanks to the rain and electric terrain boosting it's hydro pump + thunder/thunderbolt. I'm not sure of switching boosts Analytic, so I would assume natural cure is better in the case of absorbing/removing status. It can also take advantage of psychic terrain blocking priority, and boosting psyshock. Here's a few calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Rain: 138-164 (95.1 - 113.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 187-221 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunder vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 138-164 (87.8 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Type: Null in Rain: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't know how to do calcs with Psychic terrain sadly...
The last 2 moveslots are where I am a little stumped on. Ice Beam nails Dragonite and Salamence, while Grass Knot handles Gastrodon. Psyshock also deals respectable damage and hits AV Goodra harder, but loses to Gastrodon, and Protect is for scouting.
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Brave Nature
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 60 HP / 148 Atk / 100 Def / 184 SpD
-Fake Out
-Knock Off
-Close Combat
-Feint/Rock Slide
Hariyama has incredibly bulk, and with his slow speed and Thick Fat, he helps against Hail, Sun, and Trick Room teams. I modified Smogon's 60 HP/100 Atk/100 Def/244 Sp.Def Hariyama Doubles set since I wanted a little more power and felt I could sacrifice some Sp.Def. Fake Out is for interrupting, Knock Off has great utility, as well as nailing psychic types, and Close Combat for STAB. My last slot is up for debate. Feint breaks protect in-case I want to double attack something w/protect and I can make the read for it, while rock slide gives okay spread damage (something this team doesn't have at all yet).
This is all I have for now. Going to add a Metagross and either a Garchomp/Salamence/Goodra for a fantasy core I assume, but still gotta work things out and somehow incorportate Z-Moves because I totally forgot about those.
Ultra Beasts power creep a lot of the new pokemon. They're not the worst thing ever, but I think they will really lower team diversity. It really bums me out. I used to be so excited for the VGC 2017 meta and now I don't give a shit because of how boring team building will be now with Tapus and Ultra Beasts taking up a significant portion of your team slots like Megas and the legendaries in VGC2016.
So yeah I'm upset. It feels like the amount of viable pokemon has been significantly decreased when they have to compete with the min/maxed ultra beasts. Some are kinda bad, but some are ridiculous.
Eh, I'm actually not worried about the UBs, not too much anyways. Kartana and Pheromosa are glass cannons which tend to be much weaker in doubles than in singles (Deoxys A for example is low tier in Smogon doubles). People have been hyping up Xurkitree/Koko for terrain boosted thunderbolts but Xurkitree is in that awkward speed tier where it's neither fast nor is it fast in trick room, and has pretty mediocre bulk.
I think Celesteela might actually be the most popular, though Pheromosa/Tapu Lele will be the next Tapu Koko/Raichu A meme theorymon combo. I think all of them except Guzzlord and Nihilego will probably see some use but I don't think any of them will be as dominant as M-Salamence, M-Kanga, or Groudon P.
Eh, I'm actually not worried about the UBs, not too much anyways. Kartana and Pheromosa are glass cannons which tend to be much weaker in doubles than in singles (Deoxys A for example is low tier in Smogon doubles). People have been hyping up Xurkitree/Koko for terrain boosted thunderbolts but Xurkitree is in that awkward speed tier where it's neither fast nor is it fast in trick room, and has pretty mediocre bulk.
I think Celesteela might actually be the most popular, though Pheromosa/Tapu Lele will be the next Tapu Koko/Raichu A meme theorymon combo. I think all of them except Guzzlord and Nihilego will probably see some use but I don't think any of them will be as dominant as M-Salamence, M-Kanga, or Groudon P.
I agree though I disagree on Kartana. Kind of reminds me of Mega Mawhile. High attack, good defense, meh Sp Defense, great typing. I think it will be one of the better Ultra Beasts if not the best.
I agree though I disagree on Kartana. Kind of reminds me of Mega Mawhile. High attack, good defense, meh Sp Defense, great typing. I think it will be one of the better Ultra Beasts if not the best.
It has a great typing, but takes a ton of damage from special attacks. Heck, someone Calc'd out its attacks Vs Arcanine and capped it off by pointing out that Ember OHKO'd back.
Towards the middle/end of the meta I would expect UBs to even out in terms of usage, maybe have one or two of the more balanced ones rise in usage.
Kartana doesn't have 'meh' special bulk, it has horrible special bulk at 59/31 ('glass cannon' Pheromosa is 71/37!). Correction to the Arcanine ember, it was a GROWLITHE ember. It takes 30-40% from most icy wind users despite being neutral to it. It even kind of has to worry about special moves it resists, max investment politoed surf can do almost 90% to it. Though none of those are the best counters I think it illustrates just how painfully bad its special bulk is.
It's not to say Kartana is useless because I think someone will probably use it successfully especially with Bulu around to boost its STAB and with its attack stat it'll be a nasty Z-move abuser. But it's not the meta crushing monster people make it out to be. Hell, Bulu actually does more raw grass type damage not accounting for Z moves due to grassy terrain and having higher BP moves like wood hammer.
Someone on 4chan actually found out that Araquanid's signature ability water bubble has an unlisted effect of doubling the power of water moves used by it. Combined with its decent 68/92/132 bulk and the predicted prominence of rain in the meta he might have some utility on trick room teams. Kind of a one trick pony in some respects though due to his very poor speed and the fact that literally only his water type moves get a boost, and unboosted his offensive stats are only 70/50.
But he does have Entrainment, so it's a two trick pony in the sense that he can pass his ability to a good water type that doesn't mind losing its ability like Gyarados.
Oh and it has Power Split which is a third interesting trick. Since it has those god awful base stats, it will almost always be reducing the power of something you hit with it, and it gives you a good excuse to go fully defensive since the less points in ATK/SPA you have, the more points you take from your target. This might be a good way for him to effectively extend his lifespan by sapping the power of something that otherwise threatened him, especially if you bring it in lategame with TR already up and the opponent not having a viable switch out to restore his stats.
Someone on 4chan actually found out that Araquanid's signature ability water bubble has an unlisted effect of doubling the power of water moves used by it. Combined with its decent 68/92/132 bulk and the predicted prominence of rain in the meta he might have some utility on trick room teams. Kind of a one trick pony in some respects though due to his very poor speed and the fact that literally only his water type moves get a boost, and unboosted his offensive stats are only 70/50.
But he does have Entrainment, so it's a two trick pony in the sense that he can pass his ability to a good water type that doesn't mind losing its ability like Gyarados.
Ayy, I stated almost exactly this in my supportive Araqunid set for VGC! Although now that we know that Water Bubble gives him an offensive boost, I may have to rebuild him a tad bit. Unfortunately Power Split is illegal pre-bank (unless someone finds a Shuckle via QR code).
Requoting what I wrote up:
"...it also looks like it would have a VERY niche gimmicky role in entrainment + Water bubble to give either a fire resist/burn immunity or water absorb to a pokemon in doubles, but unfortunately it's still to slow to get this done.
I was actually still planning on trying to get a set like this to work, but unfortunately the only VGC viable pokemon that would benefit from Water Bubble seems to be things that prefer their original abilities like Scizor (prefers technician?), Weavile (still pretty frail), Crabominable (dunno about this), or Metagross (depends on how intimidate/speed control attacks plays out this gen), but even then rain can patch that without sacrificing their abilities.
On the other hand, Water Absorb would be sorta cool on bulky pokemon with glaring fire weaknesses like Incineroar, Arcanine, and Krookodile (Intimidate -> Water immunity is good, especially as the ability resets upon switching out), or anything that in general that wouldn't mind walling water types if it has a not so great ability.
Honestly I think bubble is probably best used offensively on water types that don't rely on their abilities, mainly the ones that just use their ability on the switch in like Gyarados, Politoed, Pelliper, Tapu Fini, ect. But the idea of using it defensively is interesting too.
I saw someone dump a pastebin with all of the 'legal' QR code pokemon but I can't remember where it is. I wonder if VGC is even going to check for pre-bank move legality since there are legal ways to get non-alola dex pokemon within the game before bank, so some egg moves requiring non-Alola dex parents would be technically illegal while others would be okay.
