Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet and Violet Speculation Thread

OP taken from Ironwater

Hi everyone!

Now that we have a decent amount of reliable information about the new and returning Pokemon in Scarlet & Violet with their stats/abilities/moves, it's time to open a first discussion thread about SV Anything Goes. This thread is meant to discuss all this from a competitive and AG perspective. Keep in mind that there's still some information (like details on new moves, full movepool, some mechanics details) we don't have and that this thread is mainly about theorizing what will be good in SV AG based on what we know yet. Thus, don't forget that we will need to see everything in practice to really judge all the news brought by Scarlet & Violet. Also, please stay respectful with each other, even in case of a disagreement.

You'll find just below a bunch of links/screens with most of the competitive relevant information we have as of now. part 1 part 2 - Currently broken, use the google doc below.
Wyrdeer-0 - 103/105/72/105/75/65 (Total: 525) - Normal/Psychic - Intimidate/Frisk/Sap Sipper
Kleavor-0 - 70/130/95/45/75/85 (Total: 500) - Bug/Rock - Swarm/Sheer Force/Sharpness
Ursaluna-0 - 130/140/105/45/80/50 (Total: 550) - Ground/Normal - Guts/Bulletproof/Unnerve
Basculegion-0 - 120/112/65/80/75/78 (Total: 530) - Water/Ghost - Swift Swim/Adaptability/Mold Breaker
Basculegion-1 - 120/92/65/100/75/78 (Total: 530) - Water/Ghost - Swift Swim/Adaptability/Mold Breaker
Sneasler-0 - 80/130/60/40/80/120 (Total: 510) - Fighting/Poison - Pressure/Unburden/Poison Touch
Overqwil-0 - 85/115/95/65/65/85 (Total: 510) - Dark/Poison - Poison Point/Swift Swim/Intimidate
Enamorus-0 - 74/115/70/135/80/106 (Total: 580) - Fairy/Flying - Cute Charm/Cute Charm/Contrary
Enamorus-1 - 74/115/110/135/100/46 (Total: 580) - Fairy/Flying - Overcoat/Overcoat/Overcoat
Sprigatito-0 - 40/61/54/45/45/65 (Total: 310) - Grass/Grass - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
Floragato-0 - 61/80/63/60/63/83 (Total: 410) - Grass/Grass - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
Meowscarada-0 - 76/110/70/81/70/123 (Total: 530) - Grass/Dark - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
Fuecoco-0 - 67/45/59/63/40/36 (Total: 310) - Fire/Fire - Blaze/Blaze/Unaware
Crocalor-0 - 81/55/78/90/58/49 (Total: 411) - Fire/Fire - Blaze/Blaze/Unaware
Skeledirge-0 - 104/75/100/110/75/66 (Total: 530) - Fire/Ghost - Blaze/Blaze/Unaware
Quaxly-0 - 55/65/45/50/45/50 (Total: 310) - Water/Water - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
Quaxwell-0 - 70/85/65/65/60/65 (Total: 410) - Water/Water - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
Quaquaval-0 - 85/120/80/85/75/85 (Total: 530) - Water/Fighting - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
Lechonk-0 - 54/45/40/35/45/35 (Total: 254) - Normal/Normal - Aroma Veil/Gluttony/Thick Fat
Oinkologne-0 - 110/100/75/59/80/65 (Total: 489) - Normal/Normal - Lingering Aroma/Gluttony/Thick Fat
Oinkologne-1 - 115/90/70/59/90/65 (Total: 489) - Normal/Normal - Aroma Veil/Gluttony/Thick Fat
Dudunsparce-0 - 125/100/80/85/75/55 (Total: 520) - Normal/Normal - Serene Grace/Run Away/Rattled
Dudunsparce-1 - 125/100/80/85/75/55 (Total: 520) - Normal/Normal - Serene Grace/Run Away/Rattled
Tarountula-0 - 35/41/45/29/40/20 (Total: 210) - Bug/Bug - Insomnia/Insomnia/Stakeout
Spidops-0 - 60/79/92/52/86/35 (Total: 404) - Bug/Bug - Insomnia/Insomnia/Stakeout
Nymble-0 - 33/46/40/21/25/45 (Total: 210) - Bug/Bug - Swarm/Swarm/Tinted Lens
Lokix-0 - 71/102/78/52/55/92 (Total: 450) - Bug/Dark - Swarm/Swarm/Tinted Lens
Rellor-0 - 41/50/60/31/58/30 (Total: 270) - Bug/Bug - Compound Eyes/Compound Eyes/Shed Skin
Rabsca-0 - 75/50/85/115/100/45 (Total: 470) - Bug/Psychic - Synchronize/Synchronize/Telepathy
Greavard-0 - 50/61/60/30/55/34 (Total: 290) - Ghost/Ghost - Pickup/Pickup/Fluffy
Houndstone-0 - 72/101/100/50/97/68 (Total: 488) - Ghost/Ghost - Sand Rush/Sand Rush/Fluffy
Flittle-0 - 30/35/30/55/30/75 (Total: 255) - Psychic/Psychic - Anticipation/Frisk/Speed Boost
Espathra-0 - 95/60/60/101/60/105 (Total: 481) - Psychic/Psychic - Opportunist/Frisk/Speed Boost
Farigiraf-0 - 120/90/70/110/70/60 (Total: 520) - Normal/Psychic - Cud Chew/Armor Tail/Sap Sipper
Wiglett-0 - 10/55/25/35/25/95 (Total: 245) - Water/Water - Gooey/Rattled/Sand Veil
Wugtrio-0 - 35/100/50/50/70/120 (Total: 425) - Water/Water - Gooey/Rattled/Sand Veil
Dondozo-0 - 150/100/115/65/65/35 (Total: 530) - Water/Water - Unaware/Oblivious/Water Veil
Veluza-0 - 90/102/73/78/65/70 (Total: 478) - Water/Psychic - Mold Breaker/Mold Breaker/Sharpness
Finizen-0 - 70/45/40/45/40/75 (Total: 315) - Water/Water - Water Veil/Water Veil/Water Veil
Palafin-0 - 100/70/72/53/62/100 (Total: 457) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero
Palafin-1 - 100/160/97/106/87/100 (Total: 650) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero
Smoliv-0 - 41/35/45/58/51/30 (Total: 260) - Grass/Normal - Early Bird/Early Bird/Harvest
Dolliv-0 - 52/53/60/78/78/33 (Total: 354) - Grass/Normal - Early Bird/Early Bird/Harvest
Arboliva-0 - 78/69/90/125/109/39 (Total: 510) - Grass/Normal - Seed Sower/Seed Sower/Harvest
Capsakid-0 - 50/62/40/62/40/50 (Total: 304) - Grass/Grass - Chlorophyll/Insomnia/Klutz
Scovillain-0 - 65/108/65/108/65/75 (Total: 486) - Grass/Fire - Chlorophyll/Insomnia/Moody
Tadbulb-0 - 61/31/41/59/35/45 (Total: 272) - Electric/Electric - Own Tempo/Static/Damp
Bellibolt-0 - 109/64/91/103/83/45 (Total: 495) - Electric/Electric - Electromorphosis/Static/Damp
Varoom-0 - 45/70/63/30/45/47 (Total: 300) - Steel/Poison - Overcoat/Overcoat/Slow Start
Revavroom-0 - 80/119/90/54/67/90 (Total: 500) - Steel/Poison - Overcoat/Overcoat/Filter
Orthworm-0 - 70/85/145/60/55/65 (Total: 480) - Steel/Steel - Earth Eater/Earth Eater/Sand Veil
Tandemaus-0 - 50/50/45/40/45/75 (Total: 305) - Normal/Normal - Run Away/Pickup/Own Tempo
Maushold-0 - 74/75/70/65/75/111 (Total: 470) - Normal/Normal - Friend Guard/Cheek Pouch/Technician
Maushold-1 - 74/75/70/65/75/111 (Total: 470) - Normal/Normal - Friend Guard/Cheek Pouch/Technician
Cetoddle-0 - 108/68/45/30/40/43 (Total: 334) - Ice/Ice - Thick Fat/Snow Cloak/Sheer Force
Cetitan-0 - 170/113/65/45/55/73 (Total: 521) - Ice/Ice - Thick Fat/Slush Rush/Sheer Force
Frigibax-0 - 65/75/45/35/45/55 (Total: 320) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
Arctibax-0 - 90/95/66/45/65/62 (Total: 423) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
Baxcalibur-0 - 115/145/92/75/86/87 (Total: 600) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
Tatsugiri-0 - 68/50/60/120/95/82 (Total: 475) - Dragon/Water - Commander/Commander/Storm Drain
Tatsugiri-1 - 68/50/60/120/95/82 (Total: 475) - Dragon/Water - Commander/Commander/Storm Drain
Tatsugiri-2 - 68/50/60/120/95/82 (Total: 475) - Dragon/Water - Commander/Commander/Storm Drain
Cyclizar-0 - 70/95/65/85/65/121 (Total: 501) - Dragon/Normal - Shed Skin/Shed Skin/Regenerator
Pawmi-0 - 45/50/20/40/25/60 (Total: 240) - Electric/Electric - Static/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
Pawmo-0 - 60/75/40/50/40/85 (Total: 350) - Electric/Fighting - Volt Absorb/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
Pawmot-0 - 70/115/70/70/60/105 (Total: 490) - Electric/Fighting - Volt Absorb/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
Wattrel-0 - 40/40/35/55/40/70 (Total: 280) - Electric/Flying - Wind Power/Volt Absorb/Competitive
Kilowattrel-0 - 70/70/60/105/60/125 (Total: 490) - Electric/Flying - Wind Power/Volt Absorb/Competitive
Bombirdier-0 - 70/103/85/60/85/82 (Total: 485) - Flying/Dark - Big Pecks/Keen Eye/Rocky Payload
Squawkabilly-0 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Guts
Squawkabilly-1 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Guts
Squawkabilly-2 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Sheer Force
Squawkabilly-3 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Sheer Force
Flamigo-0 - 82/115/74/75/64/90 (Total: 500) - Flying/Fighting - Scrappy/Tangled Feet/Costar
Klawf-0 - 70/100/115/35/55/75 (Total: 450) - Rock/Rock - Anger Shell/Shell Armor/Regenerator
Nacli-0 - 55/55/75/35/35/25 (Total: 280) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
Naclstack-0 - 60/60/100/35/65/35 (Total: 355) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
Garganacl-0 - 100/100/130/45/90/35 (Total: 500) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
Glimmet-0 - 48/35/42/105/60/60 (Total: 350) - Rock/Poison - Toxic Debris/Toxic Debris/Corrosion
Glimmora-0 - 83/55/90/130/81/86 (Total: 525) - Rock/Poison - Toxic Debris/Toxic Debris/Corrosion
Shroodle-0 - 40/65/35/40/35/75 (Total: 290) - Poison/Normal - Unburden/Pickpocket/Prankster
Grafaiai-0 - 63/95/65/80/72/110 (Total: 485) - Poison/Normal - Unburden/Poison Touch/Prankster
Fidough-0 - 37/55/70/30/55/65 (Total: 312) - Fairy/Fairy - Own Tempo/Own Tempo/Klutz
Dachsbun-0 - 57/80/115/50/80/95 (Total: 477) - Fairy/Fairy - Well-Baked Body/Well-Baked Body/Aroma Veil
Maschiff-0 - 60/78/60/40/51/51 (Total: 340) - Dark/Dark - Intimidate/Run Away/Stakeout
Mabosstiff-0 - 80/120/90/60/70/85 (Total: 505) - Dark/Dark - Intimidate/Guard Dog/Stakeout
Bramblin-0 - 40/65/30/45/35/60 (Total: 275) - Grass/Ghost - Wind Rider/Wind Rider/Infiltrator
Brambleghast-0 - 55/115/70/80/70/90 (Total: 480) - Grass/Ghost - Wind Rider/Wind Rider/Infiltrator
Gimmighoul-0 - 45/30/70/75/70/10 (Total: 300) - Ghost/Ghost - Rattled/Rattled/Rattled
Gimmighoul-1 - 45/30/25/75/45/80 (Total: 300) - Ghost/Ghost - Run Away/Run Away/Run Away
Gholdengo-0 - 87/60/95/133/91/84 (Total: 550) - Steel/Ghost - Good as Gold/Good as Gold/Good as Gold
Great Tusk-0 - 115/131/131/53/53/87 (Total: 570) - Ground/Fighting - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Brute Bonnet-0 - 111/127/99/79/99/55 (Total: 570) - Grass/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Sandy Shocks-0 - 85/81/97/121/85/101 (Total: 570) - Electric/Ground - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Scream Tail-0 - 115/65/99/65/115/111 (Total: 570) - Fairy/Psychic - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Flutter Mane-0 - 55/55/55/135/135/135 (Total: 570) - Ghost/Fairy - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Slither Wing-0 - 85/135/79/85/105/81 (Total: 570) - Bug/Fighting - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Roaring Moon-0 - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Iron Treads-0 - 90/112/120/72/70/106 (Total: 570) - Ground/Steel - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Moth-0 - 80/70/60/140/110/110 (Total: 570) - Fire/Poison - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Hands-0 - 154/140/108/50/68/50 (Total: 570) - Fighting/Electric - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Jugulis-0 - 94/80/86/122/80/108 (Total: 570) - Dark/Flying - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Thorns-0 - 100/134/110/70/84/72 (Total: 570) - Rock/Electric - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Bundle-0 - 56/80/114/124/60/136 (Total: 570) - Ice/Water - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Valiant-0 - 74/130/90/120/60/116 (Total: 590) - Fairy/Fighting - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Ting-Lu-0 - 165/110/130/50/80/45 (Total: 580) - Dark/Ground - Vessel of Ruin/Vessel of Ruin/Vessel of Ruin
Chien-Pao-0 - 80/130/80/90/65/135 (Total: 580) - Dark/Ice - Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin
Wo-Chien-0 - 85/90/100/100/135/70 (Total: 580) - Dark/Grass - Tablets of Ruin/Tablets of Ruin/Tablets of Ruin
Chi-Yu-0 - 55/80/80/145/120/100 (Total: 580) - Dark/Fire - Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin
Koraidon-0 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-1 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-2 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-3 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-4 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Miraidon-0 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-1 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-2 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-3 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-4 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Tinkatink-0 - 50/45/45/35/64/58 (Total: 297) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket
Tinkatuff-0 - 65/55/55/45/82/78 (Total: 380) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket
Tinkaton-0 - 85/75/77/70/105/94 (Total: 506) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket
Charcadet-0 - 40/50/40/50/40/35 (Total: 255) - Fire/Fire - Flash Fire/Flash Fire/Flame Body
Armarouge-0 - 85/60/100/125/80/75 (Total: 525) - Fire/Psychic - Flash Fire/Flash Fire/Weak Armor
Ceruledge-0 - 75/125/80/60/100/85 (Total: 525) - Fire/Ghost - Flash Fire/Flash Fire/Weak Armor
Toedscool-0 - 40/40/35/50/100/70 (Total: 335) - Ground/Grass - Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might
Toedscruel-0 - 80/70/65/80/120/100 (Total: 515) - Ground/Grass - Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might
Kingambit-0 - 100/135/120/60/85/50 (Total: 550) - Dark/Steel - Defiant/Supreme Overlord/Pressure
Clodsire-0 - 130/75/60/45/100/20 (Total: 430) - Poison/Ground - Poison Point/Water Absorb/Unaware
Annihilape-0 - 110/115/80/50/90/90 (Total: 535) - Fighting/Ghost - Vital Spirit/Inner Focus/Defiant

: Appear to activate once per switch - Posted here
Intrepid Sword/Dauntless Shield: Activate once per match - Posted here

Changes to other abilities we thought were changed: Intimidate (No change), Contrary (No Change), Regenerator (No change in text, not tested mechanically)

Other Abilities: Found here and dotted through the thread

Ancient Paradoxes share an ability called: Protosynthesis - Boosts the Pokémon's most proficient stat in Harsh Sunlight or if the Pokémon is holding a Booster Energy - Image here
Future Paradoxes share an ability called: Quark Drive - Boosts the Pokémon's most proficient stat on Electric Terrain or if the Pokémon is holding a Booster Energy

Box art legends abilities:
Orichalcum Pulse: Turns the sunlight harsh when the Pokémon enters a battle. The ancient pulse thrumming through the Pokémon also boosts its Attack stat in harsh sunlight.
Hadron Engine: Turns the ground into Electric terrain when the Pokémon enters the battle. The futuristic engine within the Pokémon also boosts its Sp. Atk stat on Electric terrain.
Rest, Roost and Recover have both been reduced to 5PP. We presume this affects other healing moves too.
List of removed moves:
Also, Scald is most likely only learnable on Volcanion.
Hail has been replaced by Snowing - As far as we can tell, all references to Hail have now been replaced with Snowing. Snowing gives +Def and + SpD to Ice types and does not appear to do chip damage.

A big thank you to Orange Islands people for gathering all this information; don't hesitate to check the datamines thread there for more info.

Happy speculating!


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OMPL Champion
New Relevant Moves On Old Pokémon + Relevant Moves On New Pokémon

Mewtwo: Power Gem, Earth Power
Groudon: Spikes, Crunch, Will-O-Wisp, Rock Blast, Body Press
Rayquaza: U-turn, Stealth Rock (lost V-Create)
Dialga: Trick, Focus Blast
Palkia: Trick
Heatran: Power Gem
Cresselia: Lunar Blessing
Arceus: Healing Wish, Hydro Pump, Taunt, Imprison, Bulk Up, Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, Power Gem, Gunk Shot, Heavy Slam, Foul Play, Stored Power, Hex, Hurricane, Body Press (lost Whirlpool)
Landorus: Sandsear Storm, Taunt, Nasty Plot
Magearna: Spikes
Zacian: Poison Jab, Trailblaze (lost Assurance)
Zamazenta: Body Press
Eternatus: Outrage, Gunk Shot, Fire Blast, Sunny Day, Fire Spin
Urshifu: Swords Dance
Zarude: Swords Dance
Regieleki: Charge Beam, Tera Blast (lost Rising Voltage)

Palafin: Wave Crash, Liquidation, Aqua Jet, Flip Turn, Ice Punch, Close Combat, Outrage, Bulk Up
Flutter Mane: Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Power Gem, Mystical Fire, Calm Mind, Psyshock, Taunt
Roaring Moon: Dragon Dance, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Crunch, Roost, U-turn, Iron Head, Stone Edge
Iron Bundle: Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Freeze Dry, Flip Turn, U-turn
Iron Valiant: Swords Dance, Close Combat, Spirit Break, Zen Headbutt, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Calm Mind, Moonblast, Focus Blast, Aura Sphere, Thunderbolt, Psyshock, Psychic, Taunt
Chien-Pao: Swords Dance, Icicle Crash, Ice Spinner, Crunch, Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, Sacred Sword, Taunt, Recover
Chi-Yu: Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Taunt, Psychic
Koraidon: Swords Dance, Collision Course, Close Combat, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Flare Blitz, U-turn, Drain Punch, Taunt, Bulk Up, Iron Head, Heavy Slam, Wild Charge
Miraidon: Calm Mind, Electro Drift, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Solar Beam, Overheat, Volt Switch, U-turn, Parabolic Charge, Taunt, Flash Cannon, Power Gem
Move datamine recently came in, all recovery moves have indeed been nerfed to 5 PP, bar Wish and Pain Split.

Scream Tail might be the best koraidon check that we have pre-home, with psychic/fairy tying it resists both of kora's stabs and you can even use protosynthesis to boost your own defense from koraidon's sun.

As skooma said above the best check to mira will be ground type tera blissey, however this might take some positioning to get up especially since you don't want to switch in to a volt switch before you tera.


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OMPL Champion
Some predictions for the pre-Home meta, since that’s what we’ll be playing till Spring 2023! For reference, here's the regional dex.

The boxart legendaries will centralize the entire metagame around themselves, Sun, and Electric Terrain.
  • Nothing stands up to Koraidon’s Dragon / Fighting / Fire coverage, with even Pokemon like Unaware Skeledirge being 2HKO’ed by Adamant Outrage, assuming Orichalcum Pulse boosts Attack by 30%. There is a sore lack of bulky Fairy-types outside of Scream Tail (Paradox Jigglypuff), which drops to Life Orb / Choice Band + Sun + Orichalcum Pulse boosted Flare Blitz or Choice Band boosted Heavy Slam.
  • Nothing stands up to Miraidon’s Dragon / Electric / Fire coverage either, apart from Ting-Lu and Tera-Ground Blissey. Even the likes of Gastrodon and Clodsire are 2HKO’ed by Draco Meteor, assuming Hadron Engine boosts Special Attack by 30%. However, Ting-Lu lacks any form of recovery (even Rest) and Blissey is U-turn bait.
  • Koraidon gets Swords Dance and Miraidon gets Calm Mind, allowing both an extra dimension in wallbreaking prowess and solidifying their place in dedicated hyper offensive teams.
  • Both legendaries get pivoting moves. This, combined with the fact that Sun and Electric Terrain do not override each other and will likely be up in every match, will boost the viability of certain Paradox Pokemon significantly. After all, the threshold for Protosynthesis and Quark Drive activation will be lowest in Ubers and AG.
Chien-Pao, Iron Bundle (Paradox Delibird), Flutter Mane (Paradox Misdreavus), and Ditto will rule over Speed tiers.
  • Chien-Pao will be a fantastic Pokemon in itself between its Defense-lowering ability, Swords Dance, and excellent STAB coverage. Although it speed ties both Koraidon and Miraidon, access to Ice Shard gives it the edge over both.
  • Iron Bundle outspeeds the legendaries by one point, and gets a Speed boost under Electric Terrain as well. It has good Special Attack, unresisted coverage between Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry, pivoting moves in U-turn and Flip Turn, and a 4* resistance to Chien-Pao’s Ice Shard, giving it every tool to shine as a revenge killer.
  • Flutter Mane outspeeds both legendaries under Sun, and ties them under normal conditions. Combined with its great Special Attack and unresisted STAB moves bar Pyroar and Grafaiai, it will make for a good revenge killer and late-game cleaner.
  • Ditto is Ditto and will always be good in a fast-paced metagame. However, it will have more trouble this gen compared to gen 8; it can’t break the Choice lock anymore and any of its opponents can run Tera-types to essentially imposter-proof themselves.
Some other Pokemon with potential niches:
  • Chi-Yu is shaping up to be a vicious wallbreaker with a 135 / 100 stat spread in Spa / Spe, alongside a special defense-lowering ability, access to Nasty Plot, and great STABs.
  • Iron Valiant (Paradox Gallade) gets either a Speed or an Attack boost under Electric Terrain depending on its EVs, making it a great revenge killer and wallbreaker, respectively. It has access to both Swords Dance and Calm Mind, Fairy + Fighting + Psychic coverage on both the physical and special spectrum, as well as the stats to make use of everything (130 Atk / 120 SpA / 116 Spe).
  • Roaring Moon (Paradox Salamence) receives an Attack boost under Sun. It has access to Dragon Dance, Roost, and the appropriate coverage and stats to turn into a terrifying wincon. However, it will have to deal with 4MSS, having to choose between Roost, Iron Head, or Dark / Dragon STAB.
  • Iron Moth (Future Paradox Volcarona) gets a Special Attack boost under Electric Terrain, and has the stats to hit like a freight train between Fire Blast, Sludge Bomb, and Discharge. It gets a very respectable Speed stat of 110 to truly make use of this wallbreaking prowess.
  • Iron Treads (Future Paradox Donphan) acquires a Speed boost under Electric Terrain, letting it outspeed Miraidon. This is significant, as it is also immune to Electric and resistant to Dragon. Iron Treads is also one of the very few Pokemon with access to entry hazard removal (Rapid Spin).
  • Scream Tail (Paradox Jigglypuff) can be accustomed to boost Defense under Sun. It also has access to Wish, which still has 16 PP. This makes it the only Pokemon capable of stomaching Koraidon’s hits repeatedly, which gives you the option of wearing Koraidon down with Flare Blitz recoil. However, it can’t stand up to Heavy Slam or Choice Band / Tera Fire + Sun boosted Flare Blitz.
  • Dragapult is the fastest Pokemon in the game, and gets a boost in its coverage moves under both Sun and Electric terrain. It is also a capable candidate for terastalization, which will give it an enviously strong and spammable Shadow Ball. It definitely has the tools to be a premier wallbreaker, pivot, and Speed control.
  • Dugtrio can run a Choice Scarf set once again this gen, this time to trap the likes of Miraidon, Chien-Pao, Iron Bundle, and Flutter Mane.
  • Masquerain is the best Sticky Web setter in the game.
band uturn ray brrr
You could make use of u-turn on band ray but I feel that rays whole concept is to deal damage as much as possible. You’re only given 4 slots and those slots are usually what’s important to ray so you’d be sacrificing something it can deal damage with for pivot. But you could try and make it work nonetheless.


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RBTT Champion
i have made viability rankings and sample teams

1. Legend Plate Arceus - if this exists it is genuinely unbeatable. Theres no outpredicting, pivoting or switching around this LMAO, everything faster gets OHKOed, everything slower gets 2hkoed. It even gets taunt to fuck chansey, ddance for some dumb mixed sets, ditto does jackshit to it, it can terra fairy to wall koraidon, it is going to have spdef boosts from CM anyway. LOL and it even gets terra blast for extra pp cause judgment is 8 pp. It can't be beaten except being faster, but also its too dangerous to switch faster mons in, and has big bulk and spdef boosts - fairy will make it hard to kill by miraidon too LOL. Rocks fucks up any sash strats that want to try live.
Depending on the algorithm used, we could maybe do air balloon pure electric or something stupid, but arceus doesnt have 1 move only anyway.
You could run multiple as well LMAOO

2. calyrex shadow rider. no counters. can terra dark or normal and become improofed, but also the dark types can't even damage it anymore. this is literally obscene. best terra user by far.

3. koraidon the abilities are 1.3x btw. he can terra fire ohko ceuses with eas

4. miraidon

5. zacian crowned, they still beat the box legends and there is no ndm. don't underestimate them
with terra it literally improofs itself its biggest gen 8 weakness

6. ekiller - sd espeed and eq return ddance are actually both very good. better than groundceus cuz only need 1 setup turn to OHKO the top 5 mons. won't as easily shit on bulky teams, though who knows if they'll exist.

7. ditto, its HO Swarm meta. But literally every broken sweeper can improof themselves with ease so ????

8. masquerain

9. regieleki

10. volt absorb fairy

I see no reason to run any offensive mon slower than arceus. it is just going to be bulkier, faster and have more firepower and a better movepool.

Terramax will make ho quite unstoppable, because it is like the 50.50 between the offensive dynamax and defensive but on steroids, because every pokemon can enforce it by just terraing to their immunity and there is no easy way for the defensive player to predict it.

None of the future or past pokemon that are box legends have a reason to be ran. Too slow, or not strong enough.

I have done some building
here is a sample team for this format:
if legend ceus:
Sash Masquerain, Sash Caly, Legend Plate Arceus, Legend Plate Arceus, Legend Plate Arceus, Regieleki.

Sash Masquerain, Sash Caly (Terra Normal/Dark/Fairy), Sash Miraidon (Terra Fairy), Sash Koraidon (Terra Fire), Specs Ogre (Terra Thunder), Sash Regieleki (Terra Ice)

This should also massively fuck over the other HOs since fairy terra miraidon should beat other box legends easily, and we have lots of can use ekiller over the 2nd koraidon or over miraidon if you want.

i hope national dex ag doesn't exist but if it does, use terra fairy zyg c with max def sdpef+. trust me. max quake more spdef

If it exists,
Legend Plate Arceus will make all of this unplayable anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
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AG Circuit Champion
Calyrex-Shadow Rider will be THE threat this gen, once again. Its speed tier allows it to outspeed Koraidon and Miraidon, which will be 2 of the biggest threats this gen. It can abuse several different tera types to get rid of its precious few defensive checks or to do other things like improof against ditto.

Koraidon is crazy good. Outsped by few, walled by none, checked by some. You can only safely come in on this beast using predictions, and 50/50s like that are annoying.

Miraidon is no joke either. It can volt switch around or just nuke with Draco meteor. Bulky grounds like Groudon and Groundceus can help against it, but they dont want to be hit by that nasty Draco meteor.

Kyogre is, well, Kyogre. Ferrothorn is gone, so is Kyurem-W. That’s cool. Choice scarf sets provide speed control against Koraidon, Miraidon, CalyS, and Zacian, which is EXTREMELY valuable this gen. Water tera scarf sets can 2HKO SpD Etern with water spout. You could also run a specs set with ground tera, allowing you to mess with Ditto, other Kyogres, Miraidon, and Zacian-C that might try to hit you with electric attacks. Tera blast from a specs ground tera Kyogre has a 20% chance to OHKO SpD etern, which is pushed to nearly guaranteed with rocks.

Zacian-C got nerfed. However, with the exclusion of Ho-Oh, Zygarde, and NDM, it’s still a big threat. It’s faster than Koraidon and Miraidon and can still unleash brutal physical attacks. Tera allows it to improof against ditto.

Groudon is strong as always. Bulky grounds are nice this gen for helping against Miraidon and Zacian. Access to spikes is neat, especially consdering big defoggers in Ho-oh and Yveltal are gone. Once again, nothing wants to eat precipice blades from Groudon, ESPECIALLY considering viable flying types are gone.

Arceus is back with its wide array of utility. It also has some new tools-Dragon Dance is the big one, with dragon dance Groundceus seeming like a massively threatening Pokémon. Ekiller and Fairyceus also seem helpful this gen.

There is very little defense this gen, as tera allows you to break whatever the hell you want to break on virtually every offensive mon. It’ll just be getting killed and revenge killing this gen, as well as surviving the 50/50s that predicts and speed ties bring.
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posting ag stuffs of the top of my head cause im bad at other oms lol. this is just for me to experiment, reflect, and think about the ag meta with gen9 coming. i dont feel like being formal

:kyogre: love is in the air? NOPE 252+ tera water specs kyogre spamming water spout lets goooooo. this whale is gonna be a beast as usual. chilling water can cripple a physical attacker, so thats nice. wait this thing gets substitute? …

:groudon: it gets spikes and will-o-wisp? no heat crash? insert that megamind thing groudon will most probably be our hazard setter while ndm is on break from carrying the over 50% of our ag teams. wait this thing gets substitute? …

:rayquaza: stealth rock and u-turn aren’t needed, why did they do this. rayquaza will be busy nuking everything. rayquaza is fine doing rayquaza things. wait this thing gets substitute? …


:dialga: dialga also seems to be a good stealth rocker at the moment. :dialga: but cooler had better bulk, and dialga is most probably always going to be a special attacker, so moving its attack into special defense is nice, but needs an

:palkia: not much to say tbh except chilling water. :palkia: but what did they do to my boi’s hands? its attack goes into speed which is also nice.

:giratina: and :giratina-origin: are going to be their usual stall pokemon.

:arceus: ARKOOS IS BACK!!! YAYYYYY, ag without arceus is like pizza without pineapples. i didn’t see whirlpool or trapping moves so the perish trap mess is gone.

:zacian-crowned: butter dog got the nerf it needed. with only one chance for +1 attack, it could serve as a revenge killer of sorts. tera grass dog to counter quagsire lol.

:eternatus: from what i saw, nothing changed. it’s a pretty good pokemon in general.

:calyrex-shadow: its calyrex-shadow, nothing else. tera fairy calyrex-shadow to check yveltal sounds real fun. im sure assault vest yveltal can tank though.

:that red dragon: this thing has some real juicy stats. isn’t orichalcum pulse just old intrepid sword? am i missing something. collision course seems dumb busted, fighting hits a lot of things for super effective. flare blitz nukes sound fun. maybe even protect and lefties to recover and then click it again. flame charge…

:that purple dragon: same thing as the koraidon, hadron drive is just special intrepid sword, unless im still missing something. electro drift is also of course dumb busted, hitting common types for extra damage like water and flying is good. electric terrain actually buffs electric moves, unlike koraidon, making this thing nuke even harder.

:the four chinese thingys: they each drop one stat in the form of an aura, which is cool i guess. i don’t know how viable these would be in ag though. they all get ruination though…
ting-lu seems sort of viable because dropping special attack while being bulky offensive is nice. It has painfully slow speed though.
chien-pao looks pretty good, dropping defense while being a physical sweeper. if it can get snowstorm up, its golden. being ice type means that, it puts it at a disadvantage.
wo-chien actually looks really good. it’s a wall that becomes even better with its ability. it gets stuff like leech seed making it painful to remove. it’s basically ferrothorn.
chi-yu has all the benefits that chien-pao does, and it’s not ice type. with will-o-wisp, it can get away with it’s below average defense.

i dont know how good the paradox forms will be, i don’t think they’ll be too good, because they rely on koraidon or miraidon for their abilities.
just looking at stats though, great tusk, sandy shocks (?), slither wing, roaring moon, iron moth, iron hands (?), iron jugulis, and iron bundle seem the best. im too lazy to look at moves
i just wanted to post this here, i posted it in the gen 9 om discussion, and got redirected to here.

arceus, caly-s, zac-c, koraidon, and miraidon will definitely over-centralize the meta, post home and dlc will hopefully make this a bit better.
groundeus and fairyceus will definitely become very good, checking both boxarts to a decent extent. this all fails when terastalization is incorperated as they can just terastalize into something that resists/is immune to. groudon and kyogre can nuke to the same extent as the box arts, so hopefully they can tone down their prominence.

eleki, chien-pao, and chi-yu might see some usage. im expecting pre dlc to be wack, studded with weird stuff as usual.

there aren't too many good pokemon with defensive stats. maybe with dominance of the box arts, paradox forms could be niche, but viable. some of these forms have some good defensive stats that get better with the ability and item.

im excited to see the new clear amulet, mirror herb, and covert cloak. these items look very good on paper, but seeing how hyper offensive this meta is, i doubt some of these items will be any good.

rabsca and pawmot gets revival blessing+leppa berry. it might be a smeargle situation where it's not very good, but could be annoying.

a hyper offensive meta means more usage of ditto, except the fact that terastalization can completely improof our beautiful hyper offensive pokemon. a hyper offensive meta also means that terastalization will almost always be used defensively, as our, once again, beautiful hyper offensive pokemon need something to survive with. offensive terastalization could work, but there is more gain using it defensively.

all this dumb speculation might go down the drain if the legend plate is in gen 9. ag will be fucked for 2 or so years if legend plate comes along and ndag for the rest of eternity. ag might become a gen 8 ph situation but worse.

2 more days im so excited :D
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Guys we are saved! I'm not sure when this got updated, because either I'm blind, or this came like a day ago. AG won't be ruined forever!!! :D

We can theorymon in peace now.

One more thing I would like to mention is that Focus Sash might have an increase in viability because of the amount of Hyper Offensive pokemon there are. Living and getting a hit off could be huge.
So me and my friend (LocalMaushold) Had an idea for Maushold:
Wide Lens
Bullet Seed
Encore/Chilling Water
Population Bomb

This allows Maushold to cover a some of the type chart, and attack TEN TIMES in ONE TURN with population bomb.

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