Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

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Infiltrator could be huge this gen, Specs Pult with Flamethrower might be a great weapon against Veil Snow teams, albeit the Ice weakness could ruin it's day, especially as the guy will be unable to outspeed some slush rush mons

Do we have any other special mons with infiltrator?
We have a few special mon with inflitrator, but when it comes to good special mons with infiltrator we only have Noivern which share the same weaknesses.
 
Hey people, today I bring you Iron Viliant with the question;

What's everyone's thoughts and opinions on Iron Valiant?

It has 130 Atk, 120 Sp.A, and 116 Spe, meaning you could use it as a Special Attacker, Physical Attacker, or a Mixed Attacker. One of the good things about this mon is that it 2hkos a LOT at +1
With access to Physical Moves such as, Close Combat, Knock Off, Night Slash, Leaf Blade, the Elemental Punches, SD, Drain Punch, Poison Jab, Zen Headbutt, Shadow Sneak and X-Scissor.

I don't know how to get the button with the drop down stuff so,

Calcs: (Assuming Quark Drive always boost +1)

+1 252 Atk Iron Valiant Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Knock Off does 54% - 64%)

Band Calcs: (If you are in E Terrain or not)

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 210-248 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO

Other Calcs: (Booster Energy, Scarf, Scarf Adamant, E Terrain, etc.).

+1 252+ Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 404-476 (96.1 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 876-1032 (216.8 - 255.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Iron Valiant Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Iron Valiant Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 133-159 (43.7 - 52.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 177-208 (58.2 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 192-229 (63.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 190-226 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Sets I would use for Iron Viliant:

Iron Viliant @ Booster Energy / Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt
- (You choose, mess around with the moves.)

Iron Viliant @ Booster Energy / Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt
- (Pick and choose, mess around with the moves.)

Iron Viliant is a pretty good mon, lmk your thoughts and opinions and kindly lmk if I made any mistakes and stuff!

Edit: I will do Speed Tiers with this mon sometime tomorrow :) More to come
I'm really bummed that it doesn't get Play Rough and EQ but honestly with Quark Drive. Trick, and Knock Off, it shouldn't be all that bad. It can choose between Specs, Band, Scarf, Swords Dance + Terrain, or Swords Dance + Energy Booster, so the main issue with it probably isn't going to be its power so much as it would be the sheer variety of sets it can viably run. Kinda like Genesect in AAA this gen.

I think it'll stay OU without a particularly strong Physical Fairy STAB to work with and no way to 2HKO Pex if it's Jolly, but no doubt it'll be very good on account of being a nightmare to play around if you don't know what set it is.
 
Speaking of things that can kill Gholdengo ... is there anything that can stop Shed Tail -> Flutter Mane with Energy Booster? Like at all? The only thing coming to my mind is Scarf Phantom Force Dragapult, but that seems pretty bad
 
Infiltrator could be huge this gen, Specs Pult with Flamethrower might be a great weapon against Veil Snow teams, albeit the Ice weakness could ruin it's day, especially as the guy will be unable to outspeed some slush rush mons

Do we have any other special mons with infiltrator?
As far as Veil Snow is concerned, I think that Snow's really gonna rely on Slowking to set weather on account of Abomasnow being kinda shit. That's not to say you can't make it work, but it would be significantly less consistent that Slowking on the whole, especially considering that Slowking can actually afford to run Icy Rock on account of Regen.
 
Speaking of things that can kill Gholdengo ... is there anything that can stop Shed Tail -> Flutter Mane with Energy Booster? Like at all? The only thing coming to my mind is Scarf Phantom Force Dragapult, but that seems pretty bad
Something that can live a hit from flutter + roar/whirlwind? If that combination even exist.
Edit: I don't know if specs Greninja's water shuriken is strong enough to break through the sub and kill, I kinda doubt it. The fuck I am saying that shit got 135 SpDef, its never going to break through and kill.
Edit2:
Whirling/roar probably won't work because taunt crushes it.
Prankster parting shot can help make it more manageable.
Blissey walls it, and you could run shadow ball on Blissey for the matchup (27.8 - 33.4%).
 
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Infiltrator could be huge this gen, Specs Pult with Flamethrower might be a great weapon against Veil Snow teams, albeit the Ice weakness could ruin it's day, especially as the guy will be unable to outspeed some slush rush mons

Do we have any other special mons with infiltrator?
Has chandelure been dexited ? If not it's fire typing would be really great for that role
 
Idea for terra if it ends up being to OP. What if we had a separate ladder where terra is allowed? we could have the main ou we play tours with and the terra one for fun and wack ideas that only work with terra.
Could be interesting to have as tera will most probably be banned but since we didn’t get a dynamax ladder in gen 8 ou (i believe) i think that we probably will just have to play some sort of nat dex format to use tera
 
Idea for terra if it ends up being to OP. What if we had a separate ladder where terra is allowed? we could have the main ou we play tours with and the terra one for fun and wack ideas that only work with terra.
The reason this didn’t happen for dynamax is they didn’t want to split the playerbase.

I think that should be reconsidered with Tera personally. It was the correct decision for dynamax because truthfully dmax had zero redeeming factors for 6v6 singles. Tera is actually far more interesting and does have redeeming factors (and is actually fun imo so far). Splitting the playerbase is far more worthwhile when Tera OU will actually be fun and interesting (dmax OU would have been neither fun or interesting lol).
 

G-Luke

#Cunogate
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Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Quark Drive
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Knock Off / Thunderbolt

Iron Valiant's most powerful sets probably will lie in mixed offensive strats, as it's probably one of the first Pokémon in quite sometime whose Movepool and stats seem tailor made for this. Moonblast hits hard as a bitch, and Close Combat nails most Steel types that try to switch in hard. Psychic is for Pokémon like Toxapex and Clodsire and the last slot is pretty filler - Knock Off is a rare commodity and smacks Gholdego for big damage, while Thunderbolt hits Corviknight who can probably wall this set decently well otherwise, basically boils down to which Steel should be a reliable switch in. I expect this thing to be a menace once it drops.
 
The reason this didn’t happen for dynamax is they didn’t want to split the playerbase.

I think that should be reconsidered with Tera personally. It was the correct decision for dynamax because truthfully dmax had zero redeeming factors for 6v6 singles. Tera is actually far more interesting and does have redeeming factors (and is actually fun imo so far). Splitting the playerbase is far more worthwhile when Tera OU will actually be fun and interesting (dmax OU would have been neither of those lol).
I would like to add that the Dynamax ban was highly controversial, and banning a core mechanic that isn't nearly as broken could prove really damaging to smogon's playerbase (especially since cartridge competitive is really accessible this gen). What's better, splitting the playerbase or losing a significant chunk of it?
 
My opponent loads HO, with 6 potential Tera abusers. I successfully identify the Volcarona as being Ground Tera when it OHKOs my Heatran switchin after setting up to +1. Thankfully, I have Rotom-Wash in the back for exactly this situation. I take nearly 80% but I win the 1v1, which is what matters. Unfortunately, the opponent then switches into their SD Chien-Pao and sweeps. I am truly grateful for the endless unique interactions Tera will provide.
Why was Rotom-W your only (not-particularly) reasonable Chien-Pao answer in a meta where it's expected to run rampant? Palafin handles Standard Volc, Ground Tera Volc, and Pien Chao in one slot with just Jet Punch (no Band needed). Dragonite can shrug off anything Volc can throw at it, boost to +1, and survive the follow-up hit to KO (or boost to +2 to outspeed +1 Volc and kill the next turn with speed advantage). It can also terastalyze to normal type to improve its matchup against Chien-Pao and kill it, too.

Beyond thatWhat other coverage is Volc giving up to run Tera Blast that could have let you preserve Rotom-W if it was your only good answer for Sword Cat, and wouldn't banning Tera Blast, thereby denying Volc its ground-type attack in the first place have prevented this same scenario?
 
I would like to add that the Dynamax ban was highly controversial, and banning a core mechanic that isn't nearly as broken could prove really damaging to smogon's playerbase (especially since cartridge competitive is really accessible this gen). What's better, splitting the playerbase or losing a significant chunk of it?
Frankly I don’t care if people leave because a broken mechanic is banned. That being said I really don’t think people would leave the metagame in droves if it does get banned. People talked about how banning Greninja was going to hurt the playerbase because people couldn’t use this new popular mon and that didn’t happen.
 
I would like to add that the Dynamax ban was highly controversial, and banning a core mechanic that isn't nearly as broken could prove really damaging to smogon's playerbase (especially since cartridge competitive is really accessible this gen). What's better, splitting the playerbase or losing a significant chunk of it?
I don't remember much if any controversy. I think people were just happy to see it gone. I feel like it's easy to forget a meta where 1-6 turned into 1-0 on a dime because of how violently broken Dynamax was. Nothing says fun healthy meta like 60% Ditto usage.

As long as 6v6 singles has an audience Smogon banning something won't split it as long as the end result is a fun metagame. Because of the 20 minute battle timer Showdown and Smogon metas are the only way to play 6v6 singles. 4v4 doubles plays so differently that it might as well be a different video game.

If anything leaving Dynamax in the game would lead to a loss in players because 6v6 with Dynamax is fucking trash.
 
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Yeah, I can't stand these stall mons
View attachment 465951

In all seriousness, "stall" does not mean "any team with a defensive Pokemon", it refers to a specific type of team which consists of 6 (with some exceptions) defensive Pokemon which are intended to win mostly through passive damage. The vast majority of teams which use defensive Pokemon do have dedicated offensive Pokemon, and this type of team referred to as "balance" rather than "stall". Ferrothorn is in fact rarely used on stall teams, it is usually on balance or bulky offense teams.
Oh I see now, thanks for clarifying. I just can't stand running into these generic passive damage mons.
 
Whether players stay or leave or whatever should have zero impact on the decision of banning something.

That logic also supports the decision to implement a Tera OU meta if it is banned from standard though as the only real flaw with that direction is splitting the playerbase (a loss in players in standard which we’ve established doesn’t actually matter).

On the plus side, it provides the freedom for players to play the meta they enjoy more, similar to the value that nat dex OU supplies.
 
I don't remember much if any controversy. I think people were just happy to see it gone. I feel like it's easy to forget a meta where 1-6 turned into 1-0 on a dime because of how violently broken Dynamax was.

As long as 6v6 singles has an audience Smogon banning something won't split it as long as the end result is a fun metagame. Because of the 20 minute battle timer Showdown and Smogon metas are the only way to play 6v6 singles. 4v4 doubles plays so differently that it might as well be a different video game.

If anything leaving Dynamax in the game would lead to a loss in players because 6v6 with Dynamax is fucking trash.
Back then I did hear quite of a lot of people voicing concerns at the idea of banning the generational mechanic, but Dynamax was so broken that they had to concede. I'm not arguing in favor of Dynamax at all, but treating Tera the same way might not be a wise idea.
Forgiving me if I'm wrong, but doesn't cartridge have 3v3 singles? While that's not quite the same as 6v6, its much closer to it than VGC.
My point was that if smogon/showdown was to lose players in standards either way, it would be preferable to leave them an option within smogon's confine rather than loose them entirely. Make it easier to pull them back in standard for next gen.
 
Back then I did hear quite of a lot of people voicing concerns at the idea of banning the generational mechanic, but Dynamax was so broken that they had to concede. I'm not arguing in favor of Dynamax at all, but treating Tera the same way might not be a wise idea.
Forgiving me if I'm wrong, but doesn't cartridge have 3v3 singles? While that's not quite the same as 6v6, its much closer to it than VGC.
My point was that if smogon/showdown was to lose players in standards either way, it would be preferable to leave them an option within smogon's confine rather than loose them entirely. Make it easier to pull them back in standard for next gen.
I agree with most of these points, but 3v3 singles is actually way closer to vgc than it is to smogon 6v6 singles imo. I play all 3 formats.
 
Rillabom got nerfed hard. Going to RU
1. We have to wait for Home to see the actual moves he lost (hopefully as many as thought).
2. Even without Superpower and Knock Off, and with nerfed Grassy Glide, I see the monkey UU at least and with some niche in OU. That Wood hammer with Band still hits hard, Defoggers are more uncommon (meaning switch-ins will be taking more damage) and Grassy Terrain nerfs EQ and checks Electric Terrain, which will be common due Paradox Mons, even with Pincurchin being mediocre. So, I wouldn't discard the grass monkey, he is still pretty strong.
 
1. We have to wait for Home to see the actual moves he lost (hopefully as many as thought).
2. Even without Superpower and Knock Off, and with nerfed Grassy Glide, I see the monkey UU at least and with some niche in OU. That Wood hammer with Band still hits hard, Defoggers are more uncommon (meaning switch-ins will be taking more damage) and Grassy Terrain nerfs EQ and checks Electric Terrain, which will be common due Paradox Mons, even with Pincurchin being mediocre. So, I wouldn't discard the grass monkey, he is still pretty strong.
oh, so you can see pinchurchin in OU?
 
Blissey walls it, and you could run shadow ball on Blissey for the matchup (27.8 - 33.4%).
Blissey is just a free setup fodder and on +6 you dont wall it anymore, not even on max SpDef
+6 252 SpA Misdreavus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 372-438 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
oh, so you can see pinchurchin in OU?
Not OU by use, he is still quite bad. But with some use in the Tier. I already used it in SS with Koko as competition, and it was not terrible. Without Koko and with more Mons to abuse the terrain, Pincurchin has a place here.
 
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