Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

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Not OU by use, he is still quite bad. But with some use in the Tier. I already used it in SS with Koko as competition, and it was not terrible. Without Koko and with more Mons to abuse the terrain, Pincurchin has a place here.

So like niche type of utility? Nice.

I also wanted to ask, is baxcalibur good enough for OU or is going to have the same problem as Haxorus?
 
Slowking and Galarian-Slowking both got the move "Chilly reception". That move setup snowstorm and switches out the user. Slowbro and Galarian-Slowbro do not get that move.
Ooh, that sounds quite interesting, i wonder why the bros didn’t get that move. Are there moves for the other weathers too?
 
Ooh, that sounds quite interesting, i wonder why the bros didn’t get that move. Are there moves for the other weathers too?
I am not aware of any similar move.
The Slowkings are litteraly the only ones that have that move. It's supposedly a reference to an old pokemon movie (which explain the exclusivity).
Edit:
description of the move " The user tells a chillingly bad joke before switching places with a party Pokémon in waiting. This summons a snowstorm lasting five turns."
It supposedly reference this.
 
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Ooh, that sounds quite interesting, i wonder why the bros didn’t get that move. Are there moves for the other weathers too?
Slowking is supposed to be very intelligent while Slowbro is supposed to be very dumb. So according to the description "The user tells a chillingly bad joke before switching places with a party Pokémon" only intelligent guys can tell bad jokes
 
Why was Rotom-W your only (not-particularly) reasonable Chien-Pao answer in a meta where it's expected to run rampant? Palafin handles Standard Volc, Ground Tera Volc, and Pien Chao in one slot with just Jet Punch (no Band needed). Dragonite can shrug off anything Volc can throw at it, boost to +1, and survive the follow-up hit to KO (or boost to +2 to outspeed +1 Volc and kill the next turn with speed advantage). It can also terastalyze to normal type to improve its matchup against Chien-Pao and kill it, too.

Beyond thatWhat other coverage is Volc giving up to run Tera Blast that could have let you preserve Rotom-W if it was your only good answer for Sword Cat, and wouldn't banning Tera Blast, thereby denying Volc its ground-type attack in the first place have prevented this same scenario?
I'm not trying to get too deep in the weeds here cause realistically one of us will be proven right once the meta is playable, but all I'm saying is defensive teambuilding seems absolutely impossible when every offensive mon on the opponent's team has at any point the ability to bypass any of its checks. Load up 6 of those mons and you'll win every time, since it's simply impossible to prep for Volcarona, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Garchomp, Magearna, Basculegion, Palafin, Cetitan, and Iron Valiant all on one team while also having to consider every one of them having even their most common Tera type, let alone more niche options.
 
Protean Pivot (Meowscarada) @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Heavy-Duty Boots

Type: Grass / Dark
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch / Play Rough / Low Kick / Spikes



Unaware Slack Off (Skeledirge) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Power Herb

Type: Fire / Ghost
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Torch Song
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power / Solar Beam
- Slack Off / Solar Beam



Offensive Utility (Quaquaval) @ Life Orb

Type: Water / Fighting
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Flying / Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird / Ice Spinner
- Swords Dance / Rapid Spin / Roost



Wallbreaker / Offensive Utility (Pawmot) @ Punching Glove / Life Orb / Focus Sash

Type: Electric / Fighting
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type:
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch / Double Shock
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch / Mach Punch
- Mach Punch / Revival Blessing / Bulk Up



Wallbreaker (Maushold) @ Wide Lens

Type: Normal
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Beat Up
- U-turn / Trailblaze / Bullet Seed
- Tidy Up



Stealth Rock Pivot (Annihilape) @ Leftovers

Type: Fighting / Ghost
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Rage Fist
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock



Offensive Trick Room (Armarogue) @ Life Orb / Weakness Policy

Type: Fire / Psychic
Ability: Flash Fire / Weak Armor
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest / Quiet Nature
- Armor Cannon
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Aura Sphere
- Trick Room



Swords Dance (Ceruledge) @ Life Orb

Type: Fire / Ghost
Ability: Flash Fire / Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Modest / Quiet Nature
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Claw / Phantom Force
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance



Wallbreaker (Paldean Tauros-Fire) @ Life Orb

Type: Fighting / Fire
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Bulk Up



Wallbreaker (Paldean Tauros-Water) @ Life Orb

Type: Fighting / Water
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Wave Crash
- Wild Charge
- Bulk Up



Lumina Crash Spammer (Espathra) @ Life Orb

Type: Psychic
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fighting / Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Lumina Crash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Tera Blast / Shadow Ball
- Roost / Calm Mind



Swords Dance (Tinkaton) @ Leftovers / Life Orb

Type: Fairy / Steel
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough / Knock Off / Bulldoze
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off / Ice Hammer / Bulldoze
- Swords Dance



Bulk Up (Palafin) @ Punching Glove / Leftovers

Type: Water
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Jet Punch
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt / Flip Turn
- Bulk Up / Flip Turn



Triple Hazard (Glimmora) @ Black Sludge / Air Balloon / Focus Sash

Type: Poison / Rock
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type:
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem
- Earth Power
- Spikes / Stealth Rock



Sand Rush (Houndstone) @

Type: Ghost
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Last Respects
- Play Rough
-
- Sandstorm



Sheer Force (Cetitan) @

Type: Ice
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type:
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
-
-
-
-



Swords Dance Wallbreaker (Kingambit) @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Black Glasses

Type: Dark / Steel
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant / Careful Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance



Offensive Curse (Dondozo) @ Leftovers

Type: Water
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water / Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Wave Crash
- Earthquake
- Avalanche
- Curse



Offensive Rapid Spin (Great Tusk) @ Booster Energy / Leftovers / Assault Vest

Type: Ground / Fighting
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Earthquake / Headlong Rush
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin



Calm Mind / All-Out Attacker (Flutter Mane) @ Booster Energy / Life Orb

Type: Ghost / Fairy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy / Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire / Psyshock
- Calm Mind / Psyshock



Offensive Pivot (Slither Wing) @ Booster Energy / Heavy-Duty Boots

Type: Bug / Fighting
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type:
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz / Earthquake
- U-turn



Offensive Rapid Spin (Iron Treads) @ Booster Energy / Leftovers / Assault Vest

Type: Ground / Steel
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam / Iron Head
- Knock Off / Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin



Utility Pivot (Iron Bundle) @ Booster Energy / Heavy-Duty Boots

Type: Ice / Water
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice / Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Flip Turn / U-turn
- Taunt / Flip Turn / Agility



Offensive / Defensive Swords Dance (Iron Hands) @ Booster Energy / Assault Vest

Type: Fighting / Electric
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant / Impish Nature
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge / Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Fake Out / Heavy Slam / Earthquake



All-Out Attacker (Iron Jugulis) @ Booster Energy

Type: Dark / Flying
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type:
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower



Morning Sun (Iron Moth) @ Booster Energy / Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots

Type: Fire / Poison
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type:
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Discharge / Energy Ball
- Morning Sun / Agility / Toxic Spikes / U-turn



Dragon Dance (Iron Thorns) @ Booster Energy

Type: Rock / Electric
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type:
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wild Charge / Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch / Earthquake
- Dragon Dance



Swords Dance / Dragon Dance (Baxcalibur) @ Heavy-Duty Boots

Type: Dragon / Ice
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Glaive Rush
- Icicle Crash / Ice Shard / Ice Spinner
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance / Dragon Dance



Offensive Utility (Gholdengo) @ Air Balloon / Leftovers / Life Orb

Type: Ghost / Steel
Ability: Good As Gold
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Recover / Nasty Plot



Dragon Dance (Roaring Moon) @ Booster Energy / Roseli Berry / Leftovers

Type: Dragon / Dark
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel / Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Outrage / Scale Shot
- Throat Chop
- Iron Head / Earthquake
- Dragon Dance



Swords Dance (Iron Valiant) @ Booster Energy / Life Orb

Type: Fighting / Fairy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric /
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Spirit Break
- Thunder Punch / Knock Off / Zen Headbutt
- Swords Dance



Note: I left some of the sh!t blank or is unfinished.

I'm also tryna figure a proper moveset for Cetitan with Sheer Force, but I couldn't come up with any unfortunately.
 

G-Luke

#Cunogate
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Some more theorymonning

Iron Threads @ Assault Vest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Quark Drive
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Heavy Slam / Knock Off
- Volt Switch / Knock Off / Ice Spinner

Apparently there is a way to make Iron Threads be able to activate it's ability on it's SpD, but until Tapu Koko comes back this won't be reliably done in OU (Pincurchin is ass stop tryna gas it up) so I just fashioned a standard AV set. It's main selling point is being a blanket check to Pokémon like Flutter Mane, Gholdengo and the like, while still providing clutch hazard control, pivoting via Volt Switch and item removal via Knock Off. There are ALOT less notable Electric or Fairy types than I'd like until Home launches, but I still think it can carve a small niche here that Great Tusks cannot.
 
What do you think about Dondoro as better Suicune? Worse SpDef, but greater physical bulk, hits harder and Unaware is amazing.

Suicune (Dondozo) @ Leftovers

Type: Water
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Wave Crash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Curse

Changed HP to 150 and SpDef to 65.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Suicune: 153-181 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Suicune: 175-207 (34.7 - 41%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Suicune: 211-249 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Some thoughts:

Wow did stall get gutted. I'm assuming the rationale behind GF changing the recovery moves to 5 PP is "you should be using Potions/Full Restores" but that obviously doesn't translate to Competitive where those things don't exist. I don't think defensive structures will be 100% unusable, but they are certainly much worse now. Even some of the main Regenerator mons relied a lot on Scald, which they don't have anymore, and will probably resort to having to use Chilling Water.

And this is made even worse by the level of hazard stacking. Tons of setters, not enough Defoggers, Gholdengo existing. I am probably going to really hate Gholdengo in this metagame. Heavy-Duty Boots just solves one problem with another, with there not being enough item diversity, and I'm sure even more Pokemon will be running it than in SwSh. I'm definitely expecting to have to put Great Tusk/Iron Treads on a lot of my teams, and I really like G-Luke's Assault Vest set to help combat Gholdengo that I will definitely try out.

Terastallizing still seems broken, especially with Tera Blast. I could see Tera Blast being the more problematic element and that getting banned as opposed to Terastallization itself, but it's probably Terastallization that's broken.

Flutter Mane, Chien Pao, and Terastallizing seem like the first things that should go. Maybe Gholdengo and Pawmot too.

Sorry if I'm repeating a lot of what others said, I haven't had a chance to look at this until today.
 
I'm not trying to get too deep in the weeds here cause realistically one of us will be proven right once the meta is playable, but all I'm saying is defensive teambuilding seems absolutely impossible when every offensive mon on the opponent's team has at any point the ability to bypass any of its checks. Load up 6 of those mons and you'll win every time, since it's simply impossible to prep for Volcarona, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Garchomp, Magearna, Basculegion, Palafin, Cetitan, and Iron Valiant all on one team while also having to consider every one of them having even their most common Tera type, let alone more niche options.
Fair! I realized after I posted that I came across harsher than I meant to. My point was mostly that, in a meta with Tera Types, there are going to be places where offense is going to need to check offense. Sometimes you just need to pick which threats your team is going to be weak against and predict your butt off to keep them from establishing position.

Honestly, though, my proposed Dragonite serves as a perfect counterexample. It can abuse Dragon/Flying resists to set up and then opportunistically shed its most debilitating weakness WHILE gaining STAB on a +2 priority move coming off of an insane (and boosted) attack stat? The only thing I could come up with in calc that "reliably" checks +2/+2 Normal Tera Dragonite was Great Tusk.

And Dragonite doesn't even have to run Normal Tera. +2 ESpeed is vicious even without STAB, meaning it can go Fire to pick up a timely Ice resist and burn immunity or pure Steel just to really mess with its expected counters. It's kinda nuts that offensive 'mons seem like they'll have the best defensive Tera Type options, since they won't lose existing STABs. Like, all I want to do now is Fairy Dragapult to dunk on the folks running scarf Draco Meteor Cyclizard (which seems like a really smart set in a vacuum!).

So, yeah, Terastal is definitely gonna make some stuff intolerably dumb -- including Dragonite, aparently! I'm just hoping against hope that the list of `mons that Terastal makes unbearable is shorter than the list of `mons who get new life from it, but maybe I'm just desperate because I tend to play lower tiers, and I think that Terastal (minus Tera Blast) will be a lot less sketchy in tiers with a lower power level, and a ban in OU automatically trickles down everywhere else. In any case, folks will have to weigh the push-pull between banning a buncha `mons to make a fun and unique meta vs banning Terastal altogether to prevent a frustrating "next abuser up" situation a la Dynamax.
 
I hope we can have a nuanced and substantive discussion of Terastallizing. This gen is shaping up to feature a ridiculous amount of power creep both directly and indirectly (stall nerfs). I think our analysis should be in view of the likely fact this is just going to be a more offense friendly meta than we have seen in a long time.
 
I can see stall is still quite strong. What even beats things like toxapex, corviknight, clodsire and dodonzo? Good luck breaking that.
pex water/poison
corv flying/steel
clodsire im not sure but i think ground poison
dodonso is water pure
so this means 2 ground neutrals, 2 grass neutrals, 1 weak to electric/fire, 1 full weak to grass/electric
Literally use Breloom/Chesnaught/Ferro/the new grass type kitty thing + trick user + a fire type, the only one that is even remotly especific is the trick user
 
Fair! I realized after I posted that I came across harsher than I meant to. My point was mostly that, in a meta with Tera Types, there are going to be places where offense is going to need to check offense. Sometimes you just need to pick which threats your team is going to be weak against and predict your butt off to keep them from establishing position.

Honestly, though, my proposed Dragonite serves as a perfect counterexample. It can abuse Dragon/Flying resists to set up and then opportunistically shed its most debilitating weakness WHILE gaining STAB on a +2 priority move coming off of an insane (and boosted) attack stat? The only thing I could come up with in calc that "reliably" checks +2/+2 Normal Tera Dragonite was Great Tusk.

And Dragonite doesn't even have to run Normal Tera. +2 ESpeed is vicious even without STAB, meaning it can go Fire to pick up a timely Ice resist and burn immunity or pure Steel just to really mess with its expected counters. It's kinda nuts that offensive 'mons seem like they'll have the best defensive Tera Type options, since they won't lose existing STABs. Like, all I want to do now is Fairy Dragapult to dunk on the folks running scarf Draco Meteor Cyclizard (which seems like a really smart set in a vacuum!).

So, yeah, Terastal is definitely gonna make some stuff intolerably dumb -- including Dragonite, aparently! I'm just hoping against hope that the list of `mons that Terastal makes unbearable is shorter than the list of `mons who get new life from it, but maybe I'm just desperate because I tend to play lower tiers, and I think that Terastal (minus Tera Blast) will be a lot less sketchy in tiers with a lower power level, and a ban in OU automatically trickles down everywhere else. In any case, folks will have to weigh the push-pull between banning a buncha `mons to make a fun and unique meta vs banning Terastal altogether to prevent a frustrating "next abuser up" situation a la Dynamax.
People just cant accept that the power level has raised massively, and want to take things back to gen 8
 
What's everyone's opinion on the roaring moon? What defensive mons wall this thing? What do you think would be good team mate options for this demon?
 
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