giratina? the altered one? big bitch central? gigachonkerino city?
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Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]
- Thread starter ironwater
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Quite honestly I'm having trouble believing something like that could be allowed in OU even if Rest gets nerfed and it can't get Toxic (to my knowledge they didn't cut off Roar access to it and sometimes it ran Roar instead of Toxic in Gen 8 Ubers anyway; It'll love the ability to phase with the hazard wars likely to commence). 150/120/120 is still bonkers bulk and a lot of the new Dark and Fairy types will probably be nuked before HOME drops anyway.
People believe it might be fine but that's under the belief that shit won't get banned before HOME which will almost certainly happen.
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Rest now has 8 PP max. It also doesn't have Toxic.
Some small stuff:
Getting Shell Smash is very good for it in lower tiers
It lost Scald which sucks, but in exchange it got Spikes, SR, and Toxic Spikes!? No more Burn fishing and lowered Recover PP definitely sucks, but being a bulky Water/Ground with access to these hazards is going to be really nice in lower tiers.
Step 1: make sure non-quad Ice weak Grounds like Hippowdon are chipped
Step 2: Go to Regieleki
Step 3: Tera Ice
Step 4: Profit
Seriously though, having STAB Ice on Regieleki is insane. And you get to keep your Electric STAB+Transistor!
Getting Shell Smash is very good for it in lower tiersIt lost Scald which sucks, but in exchange it got Spikes, SR, and Toxic Spikes!? No more Burn fishing and lowered Recover PP definitely sucks, but being a bulky Water/Ground with access to these hazards is going to be really nice in lower tiers.Step 1: make sure non-quad Ice weak Grounds like Hippowdon are chippedStep 2: Go to Regieleki
Step 3: Tera Ice
Step 4: Profit
Seriously though, having STAB Ice on Regieleki is insane. And you get to keep your Electric STAB+Transistor!
I'd believe giratina-o in ou before giratina-alt. Assuming giratina-o still requires a held item, giratina-alt would just be ridiculous with a wish/revive team. You could probably afford to run PP berry with how bulky it is by default if the rest nerf meant that much. Keep in mind its that physically fat and has will-o-wisp to double the physical damage it can sponge.
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On another note, I was actually wondering if baton pass clause would be lifted/tested/less strict this gen. We don't have scolipede, smeargle, or ninjask leaving our only baton pass speed booster being espatha which doesn't synergize as well with espeon.
Baton pass abusers are probably still gross but I think with teleport gone even having the nerfed version of the clause of 'no baton passing with boost or x amount of boost' would be better than banning the move as a whole. IMO its worth at least letting it be experimented than fear quick banning it again like we did for gen 8, its been long time since we banned it and tons of metas maybe a back pedal on some of the clause iterations wouldn't hurt.
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On another note, I was actually wondering if baton pass clause would be lifted/tested/less strict this gen. We don't have scolipede, smeargle, or ninjask leaving our only baton pass speed booster being espatha which doesn't synergize as well with espeon.
Baton pass abusers are probably still gross but I think with teleport gone even having the nerfed version of the clause of 'no baton passing with boost or x amount of boost' would be better than banning the move as a whole. IMO its worth at least letting it be experimented than fear quick banning it again like we did for gen 8, its been long time since we banned it and tons of metas maybe a back pedal on some of the clause iterations wouldn't hurt.
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Probably gonna struggle with 4MSS really hard though. Like it needs Pop Bomb because 450 BP Normal Move and Tidy Up for power and utility, on top U-Turn for momentum, Taunt/Encore to cripple walls, and Super Fang to soften checks. Maybe a set like this could be best, however.
Maushold @ Loaded Dice
Level: 100
Jolly Nature
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Population Bomb
- Tidy Up
- Taunt
- Super Fang
We're all acting like Eleki isn't getting quickbanned in a Tera meta. That would be the most ungodly shit to ever grace the Earth.Some small stuff:
Step 2: Go to Regieleki
Step 3: Tera Ice
Step 4: Profit
Seriously though, having STAB Ice on Regieleki is insane. And you get to keep your Electric STAB+Transistor!
speaking of loaded dice
Breloom @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Drain Punch
- Spore
- Substitute/Stone Edge
Janky ass sets, 96 speed because crawdaunt, thats the only thing i remember on that speed, rest in pawah
breloom also has sintesis, and that could maybe give him a niche on sun teams as a mon that can heal, alongside toxic heal, something that is knock off proof
I don't think there's any reason to quickban Eleki when the entire Terastal mechanic is broken. It would be like banning Gyarados and Togekiss because Dynamax is broken. Eleki will stay free. Smogon will ban Terastal.
Let's not make a sweeping claim like "Terastal is broken" and "smogon will ban terastal" before we have had a chance to see how the game will be impacted by it.
I really hope it doesn't, unlike dynamax where that was just completely insufferable to deal with, tera feels more like Z-moves but better.
I like that tera makes a lot of mons more usable, and terablast is pretty cool as well as a hidden power replacement, I think that alone should incentivize testing around it rather than just testing it. Its going to be cracked on some things clearly but not everything unlike dyna which doubles your health, gives permanant stats (tera is maybe +1 for stab move at best), and can flat out change weather and terrain without any intelligent team building setup. There was just too many things to go down the list and ban to make it look fair, it'd be different if revenging kill was an option but again, dyna 2x HP just meant after you nuke 1 target your next mon had to dyna and be faster to 2hko revenge kill.. else you have a +3 sweeper that killed 2 pokemon and forced you own dyna.
I like that tera makes a lot of mons more usable, and terablast is pretty cool as well as a hidden power replacement, I think that alone should incentivize testing around it rather than just testing it. Its going to be cracked on some things clearly but not everything unlike dyna which doubles your health, gives permanant stats (tera is maybe +1 for stab move at best), and can flat out change weather and terrain without any intelligent team building setup. There was just too many things to go down the list and ban to make it look fair, it'd be different if revenging kill was an option but again, dyna 2x HP just meant after you nuke 1 target your next mon had to dyna and be faster to 2hko revenge kill.. else you have a +3 sweeper that killed 2 pokemon and forced you own dyna.
I feel like this mon is being slept on. It's typing and physical bulk will be great for keeping some of these monstrous Ice types in check, and some of the other physical threats.
people kinda stopped being interested in it when it didn't get reliable recovery, and tbf I don't blame them, resttalk sets don't seem very good, especially in what looks to be a very offensively oriented metagame, bulk is good, but with no reliable way of restoring it's health leaves stuck with rest which is... not great, I'd much rather use something with less bulk but a recovery move that actually lets me act after using it
Has anyone figured out what the numbers are on Supreme Overlord? That will really determine what kind of ability Kingambit will run. Defiant is already so excellent for this mon, the boost you get from fallen teammates will have to be significant for it to be worth it over Defiant. At least 1.15x per IMO.
This set is just bad all over, honestly.
If you want some janky sub+restore set, you probably want to run poison heal with sub seed, and if you run technician, you want something like life orb to also boost your fighting moves, and also have Mach punch which is like 70% of the reason why you use technician breloom
So there's a lot of talk of Toxapex being horrible with the removal of Scald as a TM and while I agree that its a massive nerf, what about running Chilling Water in its place? Pex wasn't using Scald for the damage anyways and Chilling Water's guaranteed Attack drop on switch-ins will functionally do Scald's burns did and make the opponent unable to break Pex in the moment, albiet only as a temporary stop-gap rather than the permanent neutralization that burn could be. In some cases, Chilling water might be better since it doesn't inflict Burn, letting Pex use Toxic on the opponent and chip it away faster. It does have bad synergy with Haze, but Pex doesn't need to use Haze on the targets its using Chilling Water on.
While its definitely not going to replace Scald, I think Chilling Water might see some fringe use since a guarenteed Attack drop + some chip damage can be powerful. I think the Slowtwins might use it since it'll have ok synergy with Future Sight, where Dark- and Steel- types like Weavile and Scizor may not wanna switch in due to the guaranteed Attack drop. Then again, its also weak as hell and just asking for threats like Kingambit to come in and get a Free Attack raise.
Galarian-Slowking getting Toxic is great. Lets it cripple a lot of switch-ins with little issue, particulary since it has Psychic STAB to disuade poison-types from switching in. It can also do Future Sight + Chilly Reception to mimick its cousins using FuturePort. Chilly Reception's secondary effect of setting Snow could also be useful to cancel out Rain or Sand in a pinch and buffing up one of its partners like Weavile.
While its definitely not going to replace Scald, I think Chilling Water might see some fringe use since a guarenteed Attack drop + some chip damage can be powerful. I think the Slowtwins might use it since it'll have ok synergy with Future Sight, where Dark- and Steel- types like Weavile and Scizor may not wanna switch in due to the guaranteed Attack drop. Then again, its also weak as hell and just asking for threats like Kingambit to come in and get a Free Attack raise.
Galarian-Slowking getting Toxic is great. Lets it cripple a lot of switch-ins with little issue, particulary since it has Psychic STAB to disuade poison-types from switching in. It can also do Future Sight + Chilly Reception to mimick its cousins using FuturePort. Chilly Reception's secondary effect of setting Snow could also be useful to cancel out Rain or Sand in a pinch and buffing up one of its partners like Weavile.
Espathra is most definitely good enough as a speed passer (base speed being fairly high and having comparable bulk to Scolipede) and Eeveelution support alone is probably enough to break Baton Pass teams.
Additionally, even if Baton Pass teams are not good in a particular meta (i.e. averaging a winrate below 50%), they will still be uncompetitive. Historically, it's been demonstrated that when a fullpass team has a good matchup (has the right techs/opponent's team doesn't have the right moves), it pretty much always just wins barring a huge misplay (or forces 50/50s with Magic Bounce I guess), which is an unhealthy degree of matchup variance.
There's a reason why attempts to preserve it result in constant revisions to try to patch up the latest broken strat. If a single move requires so many complex bans to keep it in the game, it's a good sign it should just be removed. You pretty much have to nerf it all the way down the Dry Pass to make it reasonable, at which point it's so far detached from the move's original function that it's effectively a different move. There are still plenty of Pokemon with pivoting moves (and some new pivoting moves) anyways.
Truth to be told, except for the Evil IceLynx, I don't think anything is quite banworthy.... except the gimmick. My thoughts on in are on the spoiler.
Terastalization must go. Thing's [REDACTED] and enables too much, it's like a more obnoxious Z-Move and it shows GF not only didn't learn anything from D-Max but they don't give a flying fuck about their own meta until the next generation. It's either a super stab or third stab, as in the one stab a mon needs to break it's checks/counters, it is fucking [READACTED], and let's don't forget apparently the pokemon doesn't lose its original stabs either. Imagine this IronTera Roaring Moon, WaterTera Basculegion with adaptability Wave Crash, GroundTera Volcarona spamming stabs+Ground TeraBlast or Ground/DarkTera Sneasler aka Hawlucha2.0 as an example. It's a better Z-move, you can still use items, you basically either get super stabs or a 3rd one and in some cases your checks/counters become fodder, It's simply too good, it gives every offensive mon a get out ou jail card since stabs + strong coverage/Tera Blast limits the already amount of counterplay to an even smaller pool and don't you dare bringing up defensive Terastal as that is "Defensive Dynamax" levels of cope. I get it, it's the general gimmick but if something looks like cancer and acts like cancer then it's mostly like cancer. It might be ok in doubles though... I guess.
TL/DR:Terastal is a better Z-Move, too OP, Very cancerous, ban it on singles.
TL/DR:Terastal is a better Z-Move, too OP, Very cancerous, ban it on singles.
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Average Showdown player when they see Toxapex (including me)
In all seriousness, you make some good points, but we probably should wait and see. If its broken it'll most likely be gone in 2 weeks.
Didn't Dynamax get a full month of play before a suspect test happened? I think that's what happened for Gen 8.
It's looking like this metagame is going to be... messy, to say the least. Hazards everywhere with hardly a defogger in sight, a better Weavile because that's exactly what we needed, 300BP Adaptability-boosted Ghost STABs getting tossed around, a fuckload of new Sun abusers, and of course Terastal still looking like a pretty busted mechanic. I'm not optimistic about this metagame settling into an enjoyable state any time soon.
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
Modest
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Substitute
- Protect OR Terra Blast (Fighting)
This mon is really interesting because this is the FIRST mon that has speed boost AND either stored power or power trip, in this case stored power. So we can stall turns with protect/substitute and passively build up stats with speed boost to make our stored powers stronger. Terra blast fighting could be an option to help with dark/steel types but its hard to make room for it, protect would probably go imo. So yeah if this mon can get in safely with a sub then itll lead to +6 speed and most likely one calm mind meaning stored power will be 200 BP along with +1 SpAtk.
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
Modest
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Substitute
- Protect OR Terra Blast (Fighting)
This mon is really interesting because this is the FIRST mon that has speed boost AND either stored power or power trip, in this case stored power. So we can stall turns with protect/substitute and passively build up stats with speed boost to make our stored powers stronger. Terra blast fighting could be an option to help with dark/steel types but its hard to make room for it, protect would probably go imo. So yeah if this mon can get in safely with a sub then itll lead to +6 speed and most likely one calm mind meaning stored power will be 200 BP along with +1 SpAtk.
Don’t be so quick to write off Pex; I think it still stands a strong chance of being really damn good. Obviously in a vacuum it took a lot of hits, but you have to compare it in regards to the potential metagane. EVERY single bulky water suffers from lack of Scald now, and Knock Off is severely limited in general too, but Pex is one of the few Pokémon still blessed with access to Toxic, and one of even fewer bulky waters with it, meaning it still possesses a strong tool to 1v1 large swaths of the metagame. In addition, with hazard removal at the weakest its been in a long time, Toxic Spikes are an increasingly threatening tool that make giving Toxapex free turns more scary than it might otherwise be; if you pair Pex up with something that *does* still get Knock Off to pressure Boots pivots, Pex can often threaten 4 or 5 out of 6 members of the opponent’s team with the threat of TSpikes. (Also, it’s one of the better Toxic Spikes ABSORBERS, so it’s great at handling TSpikes set up by the opponent’s Pex.) Finally, if you remember the early days of Sword and Shield, you may remember that Pex actually thrives in lower power metagames. In base SwSh and in the Isle of Armor metagame, Pex was significantly more troublesome than it is in the current metagame simply because without as many strong Ground-types, Lele, Megas, or Z-Moves, it was just significantly harder to break. Pex’s viability will of course largely depend on what ends up being good in what will no doubt be an incredibly volatile early metagame, but I think Toxapex still has plenty enough potential to be an A to A+ defensive behemoth, especially if Terastalization gets the banhammer.
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