Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

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i believe we shouldn't sleep on maushold tho, since tidy up is a self targetting status move that removes hazards from your side of the field, which means it cannot be blocked by gholdengo nor ghost-types in general.

the cute family also has a pretty decent 111 speed stat and access to u-turn, encore, super fang, taunt and the potentially busted population bomb
Being able to get by spinblocking is actually pretty cool given the lack of defog. Spinblocking has been mostly irrelevant the past few gens but now with more potential viable spinners and a lack of defog it might return. Especially given the fact that everything has hazards.
 
Iron Treads seems like it can attempt to fill Lando-T's role as a highly effective role compressor. It gets hazard removal, has an incredible defensive typing and the bulk to take advantage of it, a solid speed tier, very powerful coverage between Earthquake and Ice Spinner that lets it beat a variety of both hazard setters and removers, and a highly flexible support movepool that lets it take on many roles in a team- it can be an SR setter, Knock Off spammer, Electric Terrain setter for itself and other future paradoxes, or even pivot with Volt Switch.
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
For the record - those categories are essentially what I was going for, but it's a bit early to say whether mons like this would be banned for sure in a metagame where Terastalizing is likely to catch out several of the top wallbreakers (and also become a damage amp for several of the top wallbreakers, looking at you Roaring Moon), and also where Speed has mattered more than it ever will do. Chi-Yu is probably broken as shit, but I feel like that will only really become apparent once you remove several of the faster or bulkier brokens (Roaring Moon, Flutter Mane, Ting-Lu) from the metagame, hence why I put it that low.
makes sense, and youre right. fish's power will probably only be truly felt when some of the stupid fastmons are gone.

rapid-fire thoughts that are more coherent this time

great tusk looks like a hella strong breaker especially with proto giving it a free +1 atk. random ice coverage is nice, rapid spin is nice, bulk up sets can exist and take advantage of that chunky physical bulk or it can just run aoa with spin. good mon.

brute bonnet...grass-dark is really not a great defensive type, but it does have some firepower behind it. spore as well. slow af tho.

sandy shocks packs high power and decent speed. funny how back in the day we would've considered 101 "fast". probably still is for a breaker of its caliber, but lets clear shit like chien-pao and bundle away first, eh? then we'll see. anyway, ground/electric with no lando or gliscor in sight is pretty sweet for shocks. naturally being a magnemite it gets 0 coverage, but i think it can just get away with ep/vs/tbolt with hazards/twave/tera on the last slot.

i have no idea abt how to judge scream tail aside from "fatmon with no recovery"

ghost is a broken typing if it wasnt for all the 100 darks running around. fairy is a broken typing. fairy kills darks for ghosts. and those stats...ban flutter mane.

meowscarada looks ou level. its fast, its strong, choiced sets dont care about the protean nerf and it can probably comfortably run band. timbs also dont look bad.

skeledirge is bad. niche unaware slot at the absolute best. 100% fiery dance don't save it.

quaquaval is a ho mon that tries to boost atk and spe with two different moves except the speed-boosting move isnt agility or some clone which is pretty nice actually. its a strong snowballer, but it probably has to be on ho to kick off that snowball properly and win.

lokix...uhh finally a somewhat-functional lens mon? "fringe" is one way to put it lol

houndstone looks like another nice fit on ho. hos mons burn fast, burn bright, and when they broke through half the opposing team and died houndstone can just clean up with massively boosted last respects. ngl cyclizar and houndstone are really nice buffs to ho. similarly, basculegion might see a niche solely because last respects is broken.

palafin broken stats blah blah blah

scovillian sun abuser eh

ghouldego in a vacuum is the ultimate mon for keeping hazards up. defog immunity, spin immunity, mortal spin immunity, plus immune to normal tools to deny hazard removers like toxic and taunt. strong stats too, looks pretty good.

toadscruel on the other hand gets an ability pretty much to counter gouldego's lol. idk how good it will be or how valuable the typing is, probably in a lower tier

ting-lu is at a completely new level of fat, sure, but its also rather passive and has no reliable recovery. the sheer bulk might make it worth banning imo, and if yall are right, probably. but idk, i feel a bunch of other threats are a lot more banworthy

kingambit has been talked about, strong, bulky and shit

paldean tauros looks nice especially after valiant leaves. specifically the fire form. water can see use too if rapidshifu gets banned this gen with its dark brother.

kleavor is strong and has an attacking rock-setting move. and its strong and packs stab uturn.

mastiff has stakeout and functional stats to abuse it. nice. "functional" does not translate to "good" tho.

brute bonnet packs the same sorta-unfortunate typing as wo-chien. packs spore tho and decent firepower so theres something there.

pawmot's revival is completely nuts because revival as a concept is completely nuts. imagine having to deal with one of the brokens like roaring moon and flutter mane, twice. and its not even comparable to healing wish - pawmot doesnt faint, and its not like the mon its healin have to be alive.

tinkaton 160 bp hammer funny heehoo

(ok after getting over that first impression iron moth actually looks kinda neat)

have a tiermaker of the new mons https://tiermaker.com/create/gen-9-roi-476780
1668355026536.png

(idk which basculegion form is which lol, put the one with less atk in "bad" probably)
(also cyclizar wont get banned if shed tail does)
(fire tauros in maybe, water there too with the "maybe" being "if urshifu gets banned", normal can go down, idk which is which again)
(glimmora in maybe ou grafarai in bad i somehow thought grafarai got mortal spin lmao)

(e: rethought it, kingambit is probably borderline, the electric speedy bird is maybe ou because its an electric speedy bird. skeledirge is probably nice, fire-ghost is too lame of a typing for a defensive mon)

even more thoughts later...or maybe not. ive been posting an awful lot lately. (well at least an awful lot for me)
 
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What do you guys think about Gholdengo's potential?

It has subpar speed but it sports a really good defensive and offensive typing (Ghost is very spammable and its signature move has 120 BP) and some decent defenses. I'm thinking it would play very similarly to Aegislash except it has a little more firepower, speed, and recovery. Lik Aegi, it can function as a semi-bulky Choice Specs or a setup breaker with leftovers.

Plus it's the only Pokemon that blocks BOTH rapid spin and Defog so it could be valuable to hazard-stacking teams which I think would be a popular play style in Gen 9
Important to also remember that Gholdengo is also immune to Mortal Spin from Glimmora, which is likely to be one of the more premier hazard removers.
 
Does snow reduce any other type's power like sun and fire moves? Either way it looks super exciting with Tera and all the new ice mons. First thing I built accidentally became a mono-Ice team - might as well use it anyways before Chien-Pao goes to triple Ubers.

Very sad that Slither Wing doesn't even get Agility so you can't make a "we have Volc at home" set.
 
makes sense, and youre right. fish's power will probably only be truly felt when some of the stupid fastmons are gone.

rapid-fire thoughts that are more coherent this time

great tusk looks like a hella strong breaker especially with proto giving it a free +1 atk. random ice coverage is nice, rapid spin is nice, bulk up sets can exist and take advantage of that chunky physical bulk or it can just run aoa with spin. good mon.

brute bonnet...grass-dark is really not a great defensive type, but it does have some firepower behind it. spore as well. slow af tho.

sandy shocks packs high power and decent speed. funny how back in the day we would've considered 101 "fast". probably still is for a breaker of its caliber, but lets clear shit like chien-pao and bundle away first, eh? then we'll see. anyway, ground/electric with no lando or gliscor in sight is pretty sweet for shocks. naturally being a magnemite it gets 0 coverage, but i think it can just get away with ep/vs/tbolt with hazards/twave/tera on the last slot.

i have no idea abt how to judge scream tail aside from "fatmon with no recovery"

ghost is a broken typing if it wasnt for all the 100 darks running around. fairy is a broken typing. fairy kills darks for ghosts. and those stats...ban flutter mane.

meowscarada looks ou level. its fast, its strong, choiced sets dont care about the protean nerf and it can probably comfortably run band. timbs also dont look bad.

skeledirge is bad. niche unaware slot at the absolute best. 100% fiery dance don't save it.

quaquaval is a ho mon that tries to boost atk and spe with two different moves except the speed-boosting move isnt agility or some clone which is pretty nice actually. its a strong snowballer, but it probably has to be on ho to kick off that snowball properly and win.

lokix...uhh finally a somewhat-functional lens mon? "fringe" is one way to put it lol

houndstone looks like another nice fit on ho. hos mons burn fast, burn bright, and when they broke through half the opposing team and died houndstone can just clean up with massively boosted last respects. ngl cyclizar and houndstone are really nice buffs to ho. similarly, basculegion might see a niche solely because last respects is broken.

palafin broken stats blah blah blah

scovillian sun abuser eh

ghouldego in a vacuum is the ultimate mon for keeping hazards up. defog immunity, spin immunity, mortal spin immunity, plus immune to normal tools to deny hazard removers like toxic and taunt. strong stats too, looks pretty good.

toadscruel on the other hand gets an ability pretty much to counter gouldego's lol. idk how good it will be or how valuable the typing is, probably in a lower tier

ting-lu is at a completely new level of fat, sure, but its also rather passive and has no reliable recovery. the sheer bulk might make it worth banning imo, and if yall are right, probably. but idk, i feel a bunch of other threats are a lot more banworthy

kingambit has been talked about, strong, bulky and shit

paldean tauros looks nice especially after valiant leaves. specifically the fire form. water can see use too if rapidshifu gets banned this gen with its dark brother.

kleavor is strong and has an attacking rock-setting move. and its strong and packs stab uturn.

mastiff has stakeout and functional stats to abuse it. nice. "functional" does not translate to "good" tho.

brute bonnet packs the same sorta-unfortunate typing as wo-chien. packs spore tho and decent firepower so theres something there.

pawmot's revival is completely nuts because revival as a concept is completely nuts. imagine having to deal with one of the brokens like roaring moon and flutter mane, twice. and its not even comparable to healing wish - pawmot doesnt faint, and its not like the mon its healin have to be alive.

tinkaton 160 bp hammer funny heehoo

(ok after getting over that first impression iron moth actually looks kinda neat)

have a tiermaker of the new mons https://tiermaker.com/create/gen-9-roi-476780
View attachment 465000
(idk which basculegion form is which lol, put the one with less atk in "bad" probably)
(also cyclizar wont get banned if shed tail does)
(fire tauros in maybe, water there too with the "maybe" being "if urshifu gets banned", normal can go down, idk which is which again)
(glimmora in maybe ou grafarai in bad i somehow thought grafarai got mortal spin lmao)

(e: rethought it, kingambit is probably borderline, the electric speedy bird is maybe ou because its an electric speedy bird. skeledirge is probably nice, fire-ghost is too lame of a typing for a defensive mon)

even more thoughts later...or maybe not. ive been posting an awful lot lately. (well at least an awful lot for me)
I think you're being a bit harsh to Skeledirge. It does have some decent stuff going for it. First and fore most unlike the one you put higher than it. It actually has some recovery, plus a lot of water type physical walls relied on scald burns for staying power and Skeledirge has will-o-wisp + hex on top of offensive boosting. I feel it should definitely not be a meta game staple but it's definitely worth more than some of the others you have in bad. It definitely can have a niche
 
Does snow reduce any other type's power like sun and fire moves? Either way it looks super exciting with Tera and all the new ice mons. First thing I built accidentally became a mono-Ice team - might as well use it anyways before Chien-Pao goes to triple Ubers.

Very sad that Slither Wing doesn't even get Agility so you can't make a "we have Volc at home" set.
I believe all snow does (right now) is increase defence. It’s possible that there’s something small under the hood for it, but that’s all we know. Which I think is fine considering the sheer amount of abilities and moves that already interact with hail.
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
I think you're being a bit harsh to Skeledirge. It does have some decent stuff going for it. First and fore most unlike the one you put higher than it. It actually has some recovery, plus a lot of water type physical walls relied on scald burns for staying power and Skeledirge has will-o-wisp + hex on top of offensive boosting. I feel it should definitely not be a meta game staple but it's definitely worth more than some of the others you have in bad. It definitely can have a niche
yeah i rethought it and edited it in after i made the post. fire-ghost is still a lame defensive typing tho, torch song is a great offensive tool but its just not fast or strong enough. could be a mean tank tho in the right situation
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Does snow reduce any other type's power like sun and fire moves? Either way it looks super exciting with Tera and all the new ice mons. First thing I built accidentally became a mono-Ice team - might as well use it anyways before Chien-Pao goes to triple Ubers.

Very sad that Slither Wing doesn't even get Agility so you can't make a "we have Volc at home" set.
the volc at home:
1668357359319.png


and i believe no hail does not nerf anything else
 
yeah i rethought it and edited it in after i made the post. fire-ghost is still a lame defensive typing tho, torch song is a great offensive tool but its just not fast or strong enough. could be a mean tank tho in the right situation
Yeah he's definitely niche but if things like Iron Valiant, iron Hands, BD Cetitan or the Tauros forms are good in the meta Skeledirge could be a decent answer. Also he could maybe leave some variants of Baxalibur at a stalemate and whittle it down. Oh and Slither Wing and Iron Moth both can be pretty handsomely handled by Skeledirge
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Yeah he's definitely niche but if things like Iron Valiant, iron Hands, BD Cetitan or the Tauros forms are good in the meta Skeledirge could be a decent answer. Also he could maybe leave some variants of Baxalibur at a stalemate and whittle it down. Oh and Slither Wing and Iron Moth both can be pretty handsomely handled by Skeledirge
being one of the better valiant answers is pretty nice, especially if it wants to run psychic coverage for the game's poison types. you're right, skeledirge aint bad, its just awkward and weird, but the more i look at it the more i see how unique it is. getting forced out by all the powerful dark-types as well as all the waters and grounds is really, really painful though. its still not gonna be top tier, but im liking it more every minute.
 

Fusion Flare

i have hired this cat to stare at you
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
makes sense, and youre right. fish's power will probably only be truly felt when some of the stupid fastmons are gone.

rapid-fire thoughts that are more coherent this time

great tusk looks like a hella strong breaker especially with proto giving it a free +1 atk. random ice coverage is nice, rapid spin is nice, bulk up sets can exist and take advantage of that chunky physical bulk or it can just run aoa with spin. good mon.

brute bonnet...grass-dark is really not a great defensive type, but it does have some firepower behind it. spore as well. slow af tho.

sandy shocks packs high power and decent speed. funny how back in the day we would've considered 101 "fast". probably still is for a breaker of its caliber, but lets clear shit like chien-pao and bundle away first, eh? then we'll see. anyway, ground/electric with no lando or gliscor in sight is pretty sweet for shocks. naturally being a magnemite it gets 0 coverage, but i think it can just get away with ep/vs/tbolt with hazards/twave/tera on the last slot.

i have no idea abt how to judge scream tail aside from "fatmon with no recovery"

ghost is a broken typing if it wasnt for all the 100 darks running around. fairy is a broken typing. fairy kills darks for ghosts. and those stats...ban flutter mane.

meowscarada looks ou level. its fast, its strong, choiced sets dont care about the protean nerf and it can probably comfortably run band. timbs also dont look bad.

skeledirge is bad. niche unaware slot at the absolute best. 100% fiery dance don't save it.

quaquaval is a ho mon that tries to boost atk and spe with two different moves except the speed-boosting move isnt agility or some clone which is pretty nice actually. its a strong snowballer, but it probably has to be on ho to kick off that snowball properly and win.

lokix...uhh finally a somewhat-functional lens mon? "fringe" is one way to put it lol

houndstone looks like another nice fit on ho. hos mons burn fast, burn bright, and when they broke through half the opposing team and died houndstone can just clean up with massively boosted last respects. ngl cyclizar and houndstone are really nice buffs to ho. similarly, basculegion might see a niche solely because last respects is broken.

palafin broken stats blah blah blah

scovillian sun abuser eh

ghouldego in a vacuum is the ultimate mon for keeping hazards up. defog immunity, spin immunity, mortal spin immunity, plus immune to normal tools to deny hazard removers like toxic and taunt. strong stats too, looks pretty good.

toadscruel on the other hand gets an ability pretty much to counter gouldego's lol. idk how good it will be or how valuable the typing is, probably in a lower tier

ting-lu is at a completely new level of fat, sure, but its also rather passive and has no reliable recovery. the sheer bulk might make it worth banning imo, and if yall are right, probably. but idk, i feel a bunch of other threats are a lot more banworthy

kingambit has been talked about, strong, bulky and shit

paldean tauros looks nice especially after valiant leaves. specifically the fire form. water can see use too if rapidshifu gets banned this gen with its dark brother.

kleavor is strong and has an attacking rock-setting move. and its strong and packs stab uturn.

mastiff has stakeout and functional stats to abuse it. nice. "functional" does not translate to "good" tho.

brute bonnet packs the same sorta-unfortunate typing as wo-chien. packs spore tho and decent firepower so theres something there.

pawmot's revival is completely nuts because revival as a concept is completely nuts. imagine having to deal with one of the brokens like roaring moon and flutter mane, twice. and its not even comparable to healing wish - pawmot doesnt faint, and its not like the mon its healin have to be alive.

tinkaton 160 bp hammer funny heehoo

(ok after getting over that first impression iron moth actually looks kinda neat)

have a tiermaker of the new mons https://tiermaker.com/create/gen-9-roi-476780
View attachment 465000
(idk which basculegion form is which lol, put the one with less atk in "bad" probably)
(also cyclizar wont get banned if shed tail does)
(fire tauros in maybe, water there too with the "maybe" being "if urshifu gets banned", normal can go down, idk which is which again)
(glimmora in maybe ou grafarai in bad i somehow thought grafarai got mortal spin lmao)

(e: rethought it, kingambit is probably borderline, the electric speedy bird is maybe ou because its an electric speedy bird. skeledirge is probably nice, fire-ghost is too lame of a typing for a defensive mon)

even more thoughts later...or maybe not. ive been posting an awful lot lately. (well at least an awful lot for me)
where’d you get that tierlist.
 
makes sense, and youre right. fish's power will probably only be truly felt when some of the stupid fastmons are gone.

rapid-fire thoughts that are more coherent this time

great tusk looks like a hella strong breaker especially with proto giving it a free +1 atk. random ice coverage is nice, rapid spin is nice, bulk up sets can exist and take advantage of that chunky physical bulk or it can just run aoa with spin. good mon.

brute bonnet...grass-dark is really not a great defensive type, but it does have some firepower behind it. spore as well. slow af tho.

sandy shocks packs high power and decent speed. funny how back in the day we would've considered 101 "fast". probably still is for a breaker of its caliber, but lets clear shit like chien-pao and bundle away first, eh? then we'll see. anyway, ground/electric with no lando or gliscor in sight is pretty sweet for shocks. naturally being a magnemite it gets 0 coverage, but i think it can just get away with ep/vs/tbolt with hazards/twave/tera on the last slot.

i have no idea abt how to judge scream tail aside from "fatmon with no recovery"

ghost is a broken typing if it wasnt for all the 100 darks running around. fairy is a broken typing. fairy kills darks for ghosts. and those stats...ban flutter mane.

meowscarada looks ou level. its fast, its strong, choiced sets dont care about the protean nerf and it can probably comfortably run band. timbs also dont look bad.

skeledirge is bad. niche unaware slot at the absolute best. 100% fiery dance don't save it.

quaquaval is a ho mon that tries to boost atk and spe with two different moves except the speed-boosting move isnt agility or some clone which is pretty nice actually. its a strong snowballer, but it probably has to be on ho to kick off that snowball properly and win.

lokix...uhh finally a somewhat-functional lens mon? "fringe" is one way to put it lol

houndstone looks like another nice fit on ho. hos mons burn fast, burn bright, and when they broke through half the opposing team and died houndstone can just clean up with massively boosted last respects. ngl cyclizar and houndstone are really nice buffs to ho. similarly, basculegion might see a niche solely because last respects is broken.

palafin broken stats blah blah blah

scovillian sun abuser eh

ghouldego in a vacuum is the ultimate mon for keeping hazards up. defog immunity, spin immunity, mortal spin immunity, plus immune to normal tools to deny hazard removers like toxic and taunt. strong stats too, looks pretty good.

toadscruel on the other hand gets an ability pretty much to counter gouldego's lol. idk how good it will be or how valuable the typing is, probably in a lower tier

ting-lu is at a completely new level of fat, sure, but its also rather passive and has no reliable recovery. the sheer bulk might make it worth banning imo, and if yall are right, probably. but idk, i feel a bunch of other threats are a lot more banworthy

kingambit has been talked about, strong, bulky and shit

paldean tauros looks nice especially after valiant leaves. specifically the fire form. water can see use too if rapidshifu gets banned this gen with its dark brother.

kleavor is strong and has an attacking rock-setting move. and its strong and packs stab uturn.

mastiff has stakeout and functional stats to abuse it. nice. "functional" does not translate to "good" tho.

brute bonnet packs the same sorta-unfortunate typing as wo-chien. packs spore tho and decent firepower so theres something there.

pawmot's revival is completely nuts because revival as a concept is completely nuts. imagine having to deal with one of the brokens like roaring moon and flutter mane, twice. and its not even comparable to healing wish - pawmot doesnt faint, and its not like the mon its healin have to be alive.

tinkaton 160 bp hammer funny heehoo

(ok after getting over that first impression iron moth actually looks kinda neat)

have a tiermaker of the new mons https://tiermaker.com/create/gen-9-roi-476780
View attachment 465000
(idk which basculegion form is which lol, put the one with less atk in "bad" probably)
(also cyclizar wont get banned if shed tail does)
(fire tauros in maybe, water there too with the "maybe" being "if urshifu gets banned", normal can go down, idk which is which again)
(glimmora in maybe ou grafarai in bad i somehow thought grafarai got mortal spin lmao)

(e: rethought it, kingambit is probably borderline, the electric speedy bird is maybe ou because its an electric speedy bird. skeledirge is probably nice, fire-ghost is too lame of a typing for a defensive mon)

even more thoughts later...or maybe not. ive been posting an awful lot lately. (well at least an awful lot for me)
I wouldn't say Arboliva is bad. Very good special stats, has an ability that sets Grass Terrain, and an interesting moveset to exploit (Terrain Pulse, Hyper Voice, Strength Sap, Earth Power, Dazzling Gleam, etc).

PS: Isn't the snail as good as the other 3 chinese ruin Pokemon?
 
being one of the better valiant answers is pretty nice, especially if it wants to run psychic coverage for the game's poison types. you're right, skeledirge aint bad, its just awkward and weird, but the more i look at it the more i see how unique it is. getting forced out by all the powerful dark-types as well as all the waters and grounds is really, really painful though. its still not gonna be top tier, but im liking it more every minute.
Yeah definitely agree. Also I think with no Clefable it might legitimately be the best Unaware user we have for Baxalibur. Dodonzo has no recovery so it could lose by attrition. Clodsire is weak to one of it's Stab's. And Quagsire has worse physical bulk and weaker offenses
 
Some thoughts:

- Terastalization: Personally, I wouldn't like it to get banned. Playing during gen 8 without gimmick was something strange and boring many times. I know that Tera is "a bit" broken: third type stab or adaptability orginal stab, losing weakness, the possibility to Tera any Pokemon in any Pokemon and the fact that you don't know the Tera type.... Man, I agree is broken (not as Dyna was last gen) but.... I think Tera can bring to the metagame variety, can make teambuilding process more interesting and strategic. I mean, you can use it offensively (and I think most of us will do that way) but you can also use it defensively (chek/counter somethig that you've planned on teambuilding or even stop/revenge kill anything's destroying your team during battle). And we all think that this metagame will be more agressive and offense. Maybe with that play style, Tera is good por all.
Other way to balance that gimmick could be banning only the move Tera Blast. I personally think that's the reason why Terastalization seems broken. With Tera Blast get banned I'm sure we'll be able to balance the metagame easily.

In case Tera get banned, I'm pretty sure will be more things getting banned:

- 4 Dark pseudo-legendaries: it's been confirmed that their abilities are more likely Dark Aura than Intimidate. I mean, their abilities remain on the field lowering the respective base stats instead of stats.
  • Ting-Lu - 155/110/125/55/80/45 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ground. Its ability is Vessel of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous vessel lowers the Sp. Atk stats of all Pokémon except itself" . With that phisycal bulk and the capability to reduce the damage from Special Attacks, that pokemon seems very strong, OU for sure.
  • Chien-Pao - 80/120/80/90/65/135 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ice. Its ability is Sword of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous sword lowers the Defense stats of all Pokémon except itself". Man, a better Weavile that's able to reduce the defense base stats. Chien-Pao also gets double priority (ice shard and sucker punch). Without things like Urshifu, Buzzwole, Tapu Fini, Clef, Melmetal or Ferro.... it seems too strong for OU (unless Tera keeps OU or maybe Zamazenta-C is OU).
  • Wo-Chien - 85/85/100/95/135/70 (Total: 570) - Dark/Grass. Its ability is Tablets of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous wooden tablets lowers the Attack stats of all Pokémon except itself". Same than Ting-Lu but a worse typing.
  • Chi-Yu - 55/80/80/135/120/100 (Total: 570) - Dark/Fire. Its ability is Beads of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous beads lowers the Sp. Def stats of all Pokémon except itself". Ofensively good typing and good movepool but I feel it less dangerous than Chien-Pao. Think it could remain in OU.
- Future Paradox with Quark Drive ("Boosts the Pokémon’s most proficient stat on Electric Terrain or if the Pokémon is holding Booster Energy") as ability. Honestly, I don't see Pincurchin being used so they'll have to be used with item Booster Energy. That makes Future Paradox less strong.
  • Iron Treads (90/112/120/72/70/106 - Ground/Steel). OU
  • Iron Moth (80/70/60/140/110/110 - Fire/Poison). Great coverage but lack of Quiver Dance, OU
  • Iron Hands (154/140/108/50/68/50 - Fighting/Electric). Nice wallbreaker. OU
  • Iron Jugulis (94/80/86/122/80/108 - Dark/Flying). UUBL
  • Iron Thorns (100/134/110/70/84/72 - Rock/Electric). OU
  • Iron Bundle (56/80/114/124/60/136 - Ice/Water). UUBL/OU.
All of them seem pretty solid in OU as Megas were in gen 6 and 7, and the fact that they'll have to use an object to get boosted makes them more balanced. But in the other hand
  • Iron Valiant (74/130/90/120/60/116 - Fairy/Fighting) seems to be bit broken for OU; it could be physical, special or mixt attacker with really good typing and great movepool. For sure, it would be banned (even I don't want it lol)
- Ancient Paradox with Protosynthesis ("Boosts the Pokémon’s most proficient stat in harsh sunlight or if the Pokémon is holding Booster Energy"). Here we go again with sun teams collapsing all down in early metagames.
  • Great Tusk - 115/131/131/53/53/87 (Total: 570) - Ground/Fighting. Great OU, next Landorus-T?
  • Brute Bonnet - 111/127/99/79/99/55 (Total: 570) - Grass/Dark. Yes, another Grass/Dark Pokemon. UU.
  • Sandy Shocks - 85/81/97/121/85/101 (Total: 570) - Electric/Ground. Good pool but UU
  • Scream Tail - 115/65/99/65/115/111 (Total: 570) - Fairy/Psychic. It could work defensively as Wish passer. UUBL/OU
  • Slither Wing - 85/135/79/85/105/81 (Total: 570) - Bug/Fighting. Finally a physical volcarona, OU for sure.
They seem solid in OU/UU as well. But Ancient Paradox have two monsters on their side:
  • Flutter Mane - 55/55/55/135/135/135 (Total: 570) - Ghost/Fairy. Gamefreak, seriously? Maybe the best offensive combination: ghost spam + fairy to hit dark types. It could be "stopped" by Bisharp, Kingambit, maybe Clodsire, SpDef Pex, Snorlax or Chansey/Blissey but Flutter Mane has Psyshock, Mystical Fire, Substitute.... Damm, I really like this Mon but, for sure will be banned sooner or later.
  • Roaring Moon - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark. That monster can learn moves like Dragon Dance, Earthquake for Steel types, Iron Head for fairy types, Crunch, Throat Chop, Dragon Claw, Stone Edge, etc. Scary as minimun.
Maybe Ancient Paradox sould be more balanced with Drought/Heat Rocks being banned.

- Meowscarada and Quaquaval have the potential to be great in OU when their hidden abilities are unlocked. Skeledirge for sure NOT, Fire Ghost and Unaware are really bad defensively.

- Baxcalibur - 115/145/92/75/86/87 (Total: 600) - Dragon/Ice with Thermal Exchange ("Boosts the Attack stat when the Pokémon is hit by a Fire-type move. The Pokémon also cannot be burned"). I think it will hit really strong but for sure you can chek it in many ways (in fact Orthworm is the best counter) and the only way you run Baxcalibur is Dragon Dance EQ and two more moves (assuming them ice and dragon types for stab).

- The Hisuian Boys. Enamorus seems to me the most broken Hisui Pokemon, but think it could stay in OU. Basculegion and Ursaluna will also hit hard in OU (don't know if Basculegion will be able to remain Last Respects lol).

- Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ceruledge, Armarouge, Pawmot, Clodsire and Orthworm are for sure OU or at least pretty close to it.

- I think Zamazenta-C, Magearna, Cinderace, both Urshifu and Greninja will be able to help balancing the meta (I know how broken Magearna was last gen but I think this gen it could be more viable).

To sum up, I don't want to Tera get banned (or at least, only Tera Blast) and the metagame looks powerfull and fun as hell. Peace.
 
It's been said that HOME will reset all transferred Pokemon's movesets to whatever they would know at that level in the current games, if it's impossible to get a, let's say, Knock Off Weavile from Gen 8, then Smogon will follow that and won't allow Knock Off Weavile in Gen 9.

If it's impossible to get a Pokémon with a certain move on cartridge, then Smogon won't allow it
This is exceptionally annoying, because certain mons are available in gen 8 but still require workarounds to get moves. For example you can still get spore breloom, but it isn't part of that mons learnset. I've got a shiny adamant breloom that will just become competitively useless upon transfer
 
Some thoughts:

- Terastalization: Personally, I wouldn't like it to get banned. Playing during gen 8 without gimmick was something strange and boring many times. I know that Tera is "a bit" broken: third type stab or adaptability orginal stab, losing weakness, the possibility to Tera any Pokemon in any Pokemon and the fact that you don't know the Tera type.... Man, I agree is broken (not as Dyna was last gen) but.... I think Tera can bring to the metagame variety, can make teambuilding process more interesting and strategic. I mean, you can use it offensively (and I think most of us will do that way) but you can also use it defensively (chek/counter somethig that you've planned on teambuilding or even stop/revenge kill anything's destroying your team during battle). And we all think that this metagame will be more agressive and offense. Maybe with that play style, Tera is good por all.
Other way to balance that gimmick could be banning only the move Tera Blast. I personally think that's the reason why Terastalization seems broken. With Tera Blast get banned I'm sure we'll be able to balance the metagame easily.

In case Tera get banned, I'm pretty sure will be more things getting banned:

- 4 Dark pseudo-legendaries: it's been confirmed that their abilities are more likely Dark Aura than Intimidate. I mean, their abilities remain on the field lowering the respective base stats instead of stats.
  • Ting-Lu - 155/110/125/55/80/45 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ground. Its ability is Vessel of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous vessel lowers the Sp. Atk stats of all Pokémon except itself" . With that phisycal bulk and the capability to reduce the damage from Special Attacks, that pokemon seems very strong, OU for sure.
  • Chien-Pao - 80/120/80/90/65/135 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ice. Its ability is Sword of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous sword lowers the Defense stats of all Pokémon except itself". Man, a better Weavile that's able to reduce the defense base stats. Chien-Pao also gets double priority (ice shard and sucker punch). Without things like Urshifu, Buzzwole, Tapu Fini, Clef, Melmetal or Ferro.... it seems too strong for OU (unless Tera keeps OU or maybe Zamazenta-C is OU).
  • Wo-Chien - 85/85/100/95/135/70 (Total: 570) - Dark/Grass. Its ability is Tablets of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous wooden tablets lowers the Attack stats of all Pokémon except itself". Same than Ting-Lu but a worse typing.
  • Chi-Yu - 55/80/80/135/120/100 (Total: 570) - Dark/Fire. Its ability is Beads of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous beads lowers the Sp. Def stats of all Pokémon except itself". Ofensively good typing and good movepool but I feel it less dangerous than Chien-Pao. Think it could remain in OU.
- Future Paradox with Quark Drive ("Boosts the Pokémon’s most proficient stat on Electric Terrain or if the Pokémon is holding Booster Energy") as ability. Honestly, I don't see Pincurchin being used so they'll have to be used with item Booster Energy. That makes Future Paradox less strong.
  • Iron Treads (90/112/120/72/70/106 - Ground/Steel). OU
  • Iron Moth (80/70/60/140/110/110 - Fire/Poison). Great coverage but lack of Quiver Dance, OU
  • Iron Hands (154/140/108/50/68/50 - Fighting/Electric). Nice wallbreaker. OU
  • Iron Jugulis (94/80/86/122/80/108 - Dark/Flying). UUBL
  • Iron Thorns (100/134/110/70/84/72 - Rock/Electric). OU
  • Iron Bundle (56/80/114/124/60/136 - Ice/Water). UUBL/OU.
All of them seem pretty solid in OU as Megas were in gen 6 and 7, and the fact that they'll have to use an object to get boosted makes them more balanced. But in the other hand
  • Iron Valiant (74/130/90/120/60/116 - Fairy/Fighting) seems to be bit broken for OU; it could be physical, special or mixt attacker with really good typing and great movepool. For sure, it would be banned (even I don't want it lol)
- Ancient Paradox with Protosynthesis ("Boosts the Pokémon’s most proficient stat in harsh sunlight or if the Pokémon is holding Booster Energy"). Here we go again with sun teams collapsing all down in early metagames.
  • Great Tusk - 115/131/131/53/53/87 (Total: 570) - Ground/Fighting. Great OU, next Landorus-T?
  • Brute Bonnet - 111/127/99/79/99/55 (Total: 570) - Grass/Dark. Yes, another Grass/Dark Pokemon. UU.
  • Sandy Shocks - 85/81/97/121/85/101 (Total: 570) - Electric/Ground. Good pool but UU
  • Scream Tail - 115/65/99/65/115/111 (Total: 570) - Fairy/Psychic. It could work defensively as Wish passer. UUBL/OU
  • Slither Wing - 85/135/79/85/105/81 (Total: 570) - Bug/Fighting. Finally a physical volcarona, OU for sure.
They seem solid in OU/UU as well. But Ancient Paradox have two monsters on their side:
  • Flutter Mane - 55/55/55/135/135/135 (Total: 570) - Ghost/Fairy. Gamefreak, seriously? Maybe the best offensive combination: ghost spam + fairy to hit dark types. It could be "stopped" by Bisharp, Kingambit, maybe Clodsire, SpDef Pex, Snorlax or Chansey/Blissey but Flutter Mane has Psyshock, Mystical Fire, Substitute.... Damm, I really like this Mon but, for sure will be banned sooner or later.
  • Roaring Moon - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark. That monster can learn moves like Dragon Dance, Earthquake for Steel types, Iron Head for fairy types, Crunch, Throat Chop, Dragon Claw, Stone Edge, etc. Scary as minimun.
Maybe Ancient Paradox sould be more balanced with Drought/Heat Rocks being banned.

- Meowscarada and Quaquaval have the potential to be great in OU when their hidden abilities are unlocked. Skeledirge for sure NOT, Fire Ghost and Unaware are really bad defensively.

- Baxcalibur - 115/145/92/75/86/87 (Total: 600) - Dragon/Ice with Thermal Exchange ("Boosts the Attack stat when the Pokémon is hit by a Fire-type move. The Pokémon also cannot be burned"). I think it will hit really strong but for sure you can chek it in many ways (in fact Orthworm is the best counter) and the only way you run Baxcalibur is Dragon Dance EQ and two more moves (assuming them ice and dragon types for stab).

- The Hisuian Boys. Enamorus seems to me the most broken Hisui Pokemon, but think it could stay in OU. Basculegion and Ursaluna will also hit hard in OU (don't know if Basculegion will be able to remain Last Respects lol).

- Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ceruledge, Armarouge, Pawmot, Clodsire and Orthworm are for sure OU or at least pretty close to it.

- I think Zamazenta-C, Magearna, Cinderace, both Urshifu and Greninja will be able to help balancing the meta (I know how broken Magearna was last gen but I think this gen it could be more viable).

To sum up, I don't want to Tera get banned (or at least, only Tera Blast) and the metagame looks powerfull and fun as hell. Peace.
I'm not sure how good Ceruledge is. It's stats definitely need improvement while the other fire/ghost has the exact stats it needs to do what it wants to do. And Skeledirge has all the tools it really needs to have a niche. Torch song, Hex, Will o Wisp and Slack Off. It will 100% be meta dependent but if Ice, Fighting, Fairy, Steel or Poison physical offensive threats do well then Skeledirge can thrive as a niche pick. Meanwhile Ceruledge wants to be offensive and it's speed leaves a lot to be desired
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
I wouldn't say Arboliva is bad. Very good special stats, has an ability that sets Grass Terrain, and an interesting moveset to exploit (Terrain Pulse, Hyper Voice, Strength Sap, Earth Power, Dazzling Gleam, etc).

PS: Isn't the snail as good as the other 3 chinese ruin Pokemon?
ok i have not looked at arboliva's movepool. strength sap and earth power are huge.

snail is not as good because its not broken. ting-lu has absolutely insane physical bulk with equally unreal special bulk as well with that ability. chi-yu...you can see the calcs i posted a few pages back. one of the strongest breakers to ever grace this tier. chien-pao has a blazing 135 speed and incredible firepower as well thanks to that ability. plus amazing stab types.

wo-chien...grass/dark isnt an amazing typing to be. being a dark is good if it wasnt for the grass type that have it get canned by chien-po, chi-yu, and jugulis regardless. resisting ground and water is nice if it wasnt for all the u-turns and close combats going around from those mons. its bulky, but its typing leaves it weak to too many attackers. its still got stats and good utility, like knock and leech seed, so i wouldn't call it bad, but its nowhere close to the level of its brothers
 
I really think the iron bundle is going to be good this gen, i love how they make my boy's delibird broken.


568011412460136



now seriously, those stats are quite good, having even more speed that the legendaries of this generation. It has access to freeze dry+h pump with stab, totally unresisted. And also having access to moves like flip turn and taunt. It actually has some lack of movements, buta set with flip turn/freeze dry/h pump/taunt or ice beam, can make him a threat.
 
Some thoughts:

- Terastalization: Personally, I wouldn't like it to get banned. Playing during gen 8 without gimmick was something strange and boring many times. I know that Tera is "a bit" broken: third type stab or adaptability orginal stab, losing weakness, the possibility to Tera any Pokemon in any Pokemon and the fact that you don't know the Tera type.... Man, I agree is broken (not as Dyna was last gen) but.... I think Tera can bring to the metagame variety, can make teambuilding process more interesting and strategic. I mean, you can use it offensively (and I think most of us will do that way) but you can also use it defensively (chek/counter somethig that you've planned on teambuilding or even stop/revenge kill anything's destroying your team during battle). And we all think that this metagame will be more agressive and offense. Maybe with that play style, Tera is good por all.
Other way to balance that gimmick could be banning only the move Tera Blast. I personally think that's the reason why Terastalization seems broken. With Tera Blast get banned I'm sure we'll be able to balance the metagame easily.

In case Tera get banned, I'm pretty sure will be more things getting banned:

- 4 Dark pseudo-legendaries: it's been confirmed that their abilities are more likely Dark Aura than Intimidate. I mean, their abilities remain on the field lowering the respective base stats instead of stats.
  • Ting-Lu - 155/110/125/55/80/45 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ground. Its ability is Vessel of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous vessel lowers the Sp. Atk stats of all Pokémon except itself" . With that phisycal bulk and the capability to reduce the damage from Special Attacks, that pokemon seems very strong, OU for sure.
  • Chien-Pao - 80/120/80/90/65/135 (Total: 570) - Dark/Ice. Its ability is Sword of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous sword lowers the Defense stats of all Pokémon except itself". Man, a better Weavile that's able to reduce the defense base stats. Chien-Pao also gets double priority (ice shard and sucker punch). Without things like Urshifu, Buzzwole, Tapu Fini, Clef, Melmetal or Ferro.... it seems too strong for OU (unless Tera keeps OU or maybe Zamazenta-C is OU).
  • Wo-Chien - 85/85/100/95/135/70 (Total: 570) - Dark/Grass. Its ability is Tablets of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous wooden tablets lowers the Attack stats of all Pokémon except itself". Same than Ting-Lu but a worse typing.
  • Chi-Yu - 55/80/80/135/120/100 (Total: 570) - Dark/Fire. Its ability is Beads of Ruin: "The power of the Pokémon’s ruinous beads lowers the Sp. Def stats of all Pokémon except itself". Ofensively good typing and good movepool but I feel it less dangerous than Chien-Pao. Think it could remain in OU.
- Future Paradox with Quark Drive ("Boosts the Pokémon’s most proficient stat on Electric Terrain or if the Pokémon is holding Booster Energy") as ability. Honestly, I don't see Pincurchin being used so they'll have to be used with item Booster Energy. That makes Future Paradox less strong.
  • Iron Treads (90/112/120/72/70/106 - Ground/Steel). OU
  • Iron Moth (80/70/60/140/110/110 - Fire/Poison). Great coverage but lack of Quiver Dance, OU
  • Iron Hands (154/140/108/50/68/50 - Fighting/Electric). Nice wallbreaker. OU
  • Iron Jugulis (94/80/86/122/80/108 - Dark/Flying). UUBL
  • Iron Thorns (100/134/110/70/84/72 - Rock/Electric). OU
  • Iron Bundle (56/80/114/124/60/136 - Ice/Water). UUBL/OU.
All of them seem pretty solid in OU as Megas were in gen 6 and 7, and the fact that they'll have to use an object to get boosted makes them more balanced. But in the other hand
  • Iron Valiant (74/130/90/120/60/116 - Fairy/Fighting) seems to be bit broken for OU; it could be physical, special or mixt attacker with really good typing and great movepool. For sure, it would be banned (even I don't want it lol)
- Ancient Paradox with Protosynthesis ("Boosts the Pokémon’s most proficient stat in harsh sunlight or if the Pokémon is holding Booster Energy"). Here we go again with sun teams collapsing all down in early metagames.
  • Great Tusk - 115/131/131/53/53/87 (Total: 570) - Ground/Fighting. Great OU, next Landorus-T?
  • Brute Bonnet - 111/127/99/79/99/55 (Total: 570) - Grass/Dark. Yes, another Grass/Dark Pokemon. UU.
  • Sandy Shocks - 85/81/97/121/85/101 (Total: 570) - Electric/Ground. Good pool but UU
  • Scream Tail - 115/65/99/65/115/111 (Total: 570) - Fairy/Psychic. It could work defensively as Wish passer. UUBL/OU
  • Slither Wing - 85/135/79/85/105/81 (Total: 570) - Bug/Fighting. Finally a physical volcarona, OU for sure.
They seem solid in OU/UU as well. But Ancient Paradox have two monsters on their side:
  • Flutter Mane - 55/55/55/135/135/135 (Total: 570) - Ghost/Fairy. Gamefreak, seriously? Maybe the best offensive combination: ghost spam + fairy to hit dark types. It could be "stopped" by Bisharp, Kingambit, maybe Clodsire, SpDef Pex, Snorlax or Chansey/Blissey but Flutter Mane has Psyshock, Mystical Fire, Substitute.... Damm, I really like this Mon but, for sure will be banned sooner or later.
  • Roaring Moon - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark. That monster can learn moves like Dragon Dance, Earthquake for Steel types, Iron Head for fairy types, Crunch, Throat Chop, Dragon Claw, Stone Edge, etc. Scary as minimun.
Maybe Ancient Paradox sould be more balanced with Drought/Heat Rocks being banned.

- Meowscarada and Quaquaval have the potential to be great in OU when their hidden abilities are unlocked. Skeledirge for sure NOT, Fire Ghost and Unaware are really bad defensively.

- Baxcalibur - 115/145/92/75/86/87 (Total: 600) - Dragon/Ice with Thermal Exchange ("Boosts the Attack stat when the Pokémon is hit by a Fire-type move. The Pokémon also cannot be burned"). I think it will hit really strong but for sure you can chek it in many ways (in fact Orthworm is the best counter) and the only way you run Baxcalibur is Dragon Dance EQ and two more moves (assuming them ice and dragon types for stab).

- The Hisuian Boys. Enamorus seems to me the most broken Hisui Pokemon, but think it could stay in OU. Basculegion and Ursaluna will also hit hard in OU (don't know if Basculegion will be able to remain Last Respects lol).

- Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ceruledge, Armarouge, Pawmot, Clodsire and Orthworm are for sure OU or at least pretty close to it.

- I think Zamazenta-C, Magearna, Cinderace, both Urshifu and Greninja will be able to help balancing the meta (I know how broken Magearna was last gen but I think this gen it could be more viable).

To sum up, I don't want to Tera get banned (or at least, only Tera Blast) and the metagame looks powerfull and fun as hell. Peace.
Im afraid that is quite unsure that they would ban electric terrain or drought users (only being torkoal.
 
Banning drought/terrain setters is Cope in my opinion. It gives a free item slot to the paradoxes, but at the same time you are forced to run a mon which at best is only decent. Not to mention there are already inherent counters to it: the face that other weather setters (Particularly G-Slowking) are around.
 
Skeledirge propaganda post!




Certainly not OU by usage Mon. But it does have its niche due to Unaware, unique typing and Stats combination. Some relevant calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Psychic vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 164-194 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < I don,t think LO Volcarona will be common due to the Hazard stack, but even if it is, Skeledirge fully walls without even investing Sdef (providing it has Boots).

252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 148-174 (36 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Again, I don,t think Band Cinderace will be a thing, but even if it is, Skeledirge walls without investing in Defense, just with HP.

252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 350-415 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 351-413 (85.4 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 196-232 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <Doesn,t switch-in, but can RK easily in worst case scenario (worst case scenario for Cloyster being Sdef invested Skeledirge vs LO Cloyster, which again, won,t be common).

252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 90-110 (21.8 - 26.7%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 245-300 (59.6 - 72.9%) -- approx. 2HKO < Now, with Max Defense, it can switch into Icicle Spear and take a Rock Blast after that.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 307-361 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < Another Mon that won,t be exactly common, but can be RKd.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 55-64 (13.3 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 218-257 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < And with Max Defense, it can actually switch into any move and take Thief after that.


252+ Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 370-436 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 60-71 (14.5 - 17.2%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 260-308 (63.2 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < Same story here, 0 bulk crocodile can be a RK, Max Bulk can switch in into any Move and take a Knock Off after that.

252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 242-283 (58.8 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < After the leopard gets banned, Weavile might get used again. Its not a Weavile check, but it can beat it in a pinch.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna-Original Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 219-258 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <Loses without bulk due to ignoring the drop. Doesn,t like Volt Switch and Trick either, but this is worst case scenario...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna-Original Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 149-176 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Tanks Sdef with Sdef investment. I don,t believe Magearna will stay in OU, but Skeledirge walls every single set except Specs without Sdef investment. With Sdef it tanks Fleur Cannon too, recoviring all the damage with Slack Off.



252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 272-320 (66.1 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO< Worst case scenario vs Zamazenta, should it drop to OU.
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 192-226 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO< Unfortunately, still 2HKOd, but walls every other move easily.


252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 180-214 (43.7 - 52%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO < Zamazenta Crowned is fully walled.


0 SpA Hatterene Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 123-145 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 24.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Hatterene Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 159-187 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
< Should CM Hatterene (unlikely) become common again, its walled. And outsped too.


252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 274-324 (66.6 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hatterene: 248-294 (77.9 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < Offensive Skelerdrige can switch-in and win vs TR Hatterene (provided the turn it switches in there is no TR) most of the time.


252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 187-220 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO < Sdef Skelerdrige switches into TR Hatterene and Stalls it out with Slack Off.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Springtide Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 174-204 (42.3 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Walls the most spammable move without investment.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Togekiss Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 418-492 (101.7 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO < RIP. But...

252+ SpA Choice Specs Togekiss Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 284-336 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Togekiss Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Chandelure: 174-206 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO < Timid Boots + CM Enamorus (expected common set) is walled by Sdef version of Skeledirge.


+1 252+ SpA Rabska Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Chandelure: 207-244 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Unaware Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rabska: 288-338 (98.9 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO < New Stored Power cheesemon is beaten by offensive Skeledirge.

252 Atk Choice Band Maushold Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 200-236 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Maushold Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 140-166 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Maushold is a new Mon with a broken Normal Move that can hit 10 times and is boosted by Technician, so the 75 Attack it has its higher than it looks. Every Skeledirge can switch into that Move, since its Normal and Pdef one can switch into Crunch too.


252+ Atk Cetitan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chandelure: 172-204 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO< Pdef Skeledirge walls Cetitan, which as many know, has Belly Drum + Slush Rush.

Kinda tired of running calcs, so from here will be shorter:
-Switches into every Move of Slither Wing except EQ.
-Sdef version walls Iron Moth outside of Sun.
-Knock Off, Shadow Ball and Trick are the only moves that Iron Valiant can use to break Skeledirge, so it can switch into STABs and burn it most of the time.
-Switches into 2 of the Paldean Tauros, outside of EQ.
-Special Scovillain is walled. Physicial one learns Ground and Dark moves, but can still be checked by Pdef version. Unaware helps a lot vs Growth and Sun helps to actually deal damage back.
-Breloom has only Rock Tomb to break the fire crocodile. And Breloom has severe 4 move slots syndrome, it can,t run Spore, both STABs, Rock Tomb, SD, Sub and Leech Seed at the same time.

Sets I would run on Skeledirge:

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Will-O-Wisp / Encore

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Will-O-Wisp / Encore

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Flamethrower / Torch Song
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Earth Power / Will-O-Wisp

Chandelure @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Slack Off
- Torch Song / Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power

First 3 sets are pretty obvious. They depend on the team and the Mons Skeledirge wants to check, all of those 3 sets check different things as shown in the above calcs.
Last set is specifically for TR Teams, which, if run, obviously will have a Hatterene.

Some useful partners for Skeledirge:

-Corviknight. Only viable Defogger, can switch into Ground moves.
-Quagsire, Clodsire and Dondozo. Unaware combo. Quagsire is also one of the only non Poison Mons that learns Toxic (also Rocks and Spikes).
-Chesnaught. Great defensive sinergy and can support with Spikes, Leech Seed and Roar. Breloom too, but its less bulky (though it learns Spore and Toxic).
-Hatterene in TR.
-Rillaboom, provides Grassy Terrain, allowing Skeledirge to switch into EQ.
-Pdef Amoonguss. Can switch into Knock Off and supports Hex sets with Spore, Stun Spore and Toxic.
-Slither Wings. Great defensive sinergy, absorbs Knock Off due to having Morning Sun.
-Meowscarada. Even though its frail and has 7 weaknesses, it somehow switches into every Skeledirge's weakness except Rock. Skeledirge switches into 6 out of 7 weaknesses Meowscarada has.
-Landorus-T. Its Landorus-T.


Hopefully after this post you can apreciate the potential of Skeledirge. I won,t be able to play the first week or 2 of the new Meta, but can still contribute with this kind of posts. Have a good Eeveening.
 
I have a question for you all. What pokemon do you think its likely to be OU this gen and be good in the meta.

For example to me Goldhengo. Np+ shadow ball and his signature can be very useful

1668364342401.png
 

Upstart

Copy Cat
Will we reasonably be able to test the move reset rumor before pokehome compatibility in spring? I really don't want to breed egg moves or move tutor mons if the resources will just be burned.
 
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