Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

[Nashrock]

I'll say we're gonna see Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, Chi-yu, and Ting-Lu banned really quickly, and then our lovely bird Iron Bundle and Last Respect following. It's so wild for gf to make so many crazy mons. I couldn't even think of a proper team to check these.

 

[advaita]

Obviously there are 'mons, moves, and mechanics that are extremely heinous like Flutter Mane, Tera, Shadow Tag, and Chien-Pao, but there needs to be a fresh tiering process if you're going to make this metagame work without banning 50 million different things. No matter how much offensive shit you ban, the tier will never be "balanced" because the nerfs to defensive playstyles at its core is insane-- low Knock Off & Toxic distribution, 8PP recovery, Scald getting axe'd, even larger power creep, etc...

Let's try not to get too ban happy the first few weeks.

Thanks.

 

[the mystery duck]

how many things do u think r gonna get banned week 1.

I estimate at least 10

Besides the initial banlist, I would guess zero bans for week 1. They will likely be busy observing the meta to see if tera should be ban or not. There will be a lot of bans regardless of their decision after that.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

IMO in any case something like Revival Blessings would by itself get banned for being uncompetitive. That being said, it only has two users, one of its users has the good speed stats to make use of it (AND has usable abilities with it) and the other has a terrible typing and has to use Boots to not immediately die. Its like this with Shed Tail too in that Cyclizar enables so much more with it than Orthworm can simply cause of its unique traits of Regenerator and high Speed.

Its more like a case of if Fishous Rend was banned instead of Dracovish. IMO if these moves are a problem ban Pawmot and Cyclizar. Unless Rabsca and Orthworm can perform goofy shit with it too like how people made Arena Trap Diglett work almost as well as Duggy in OU.

You could also have a blanket ban on Leppa Berry to deal with Revival Blessings (akin to how King's Rock's ban only came about because of one particularly good user of the item) but the only other time its broken (or potentially so) is with Endless Battle garbage (that's already banned) so that's w/e.

 

[Magcargo]

IMO in any case something like Revival Blessings would by itself get banned for being uncompetitive. That being said, it only has two users, one of its users has the good speed stats to make use of it (AND has usable abilities with it) and the other has a terrible typing and has to use Boots to not immediately die. Its like this with Shed Tail too in that Cyclizar enables so much more with it than Orthworm can simply cause of its unique traits of Regenerator and high Speed.

Its more like a case of if Fishous Rend was banned instead of Dracovish. IMO if these moves are a problem ban Pawmot and Cyclizar. Unless Rabsca and Orthworm can perform goofy shit with it too like how people made Arena Trap Diglett work almost as well as Duggy in OU.

You could also have a blanket ban on Leppa Berry to deal with Revival Blessings (akin to how King's Rock's ban only came about because of one particularly good user of the item) but the only other time its broken (or potentially so) is with Endless Battle garbage (that's already banned) so that's w/e.

Rabsca isn't amazing, but it has good bulk letting it take a hit vs certain threats and get the move off in a lot of scenarios, like say against a defensive wall like Toxapex or a CB fighting-type locked into CC. It also gets TR too so it could be used to setup TR and give something like Kingambit a second chance to sweep. Now, TR is a volatile playstyle, but I think it'll still see general use just because acting as a Revival Blessing bot seems like it'll be a powerful tool and its typing gives it different applicable uses to Pawmot. Being able to use it just once will still be really useful.

IDK, I think this is a case where the move itself might be busted, similar to Arena Trap. That being said I'm hoping it doesn't get immediately put on the banlist like Arena Trap / Shadow Tag since we never had anything like this before, so it is important to see what makes it broken in standard gameplay beyond basic theorymonning.

 

[TyCarter]

I think Great Tusk/Iron Treads could be a great suicide lead for HO teams, especially since it packs both rapid spin and rocks much like it's counterpart Donphan. In Great Tusk's case it def feels like it has more than 4 moves it really wants to run whether it is rapid spin/stealth rocks/EQ/CC or even Ice Spinner.

Also very curious to see whether or not terrastalizing gets suspected tested within a week after release.

WRT Revival Blessing I think it should get tested early on at the very least given the concept of reviving a fainted pokemon with no real repercussions is basically foreign as far as competitive pokemon is concerned.

 

[earl]

I don't see why everyone is acting like it's insane that a good number of (essentially) legendaries are gonna need to get banned. That's really not that surprising.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Don't know why people wanna get Revival Blessing banned when you can just ban Leppa Berry in its entirety, then you can technically only utilize it twice

 

[Suricata]

Great Mons may exit OU tier due to the change of move pools, especially those crazy nerf stalls such as pex, slowbro and corviknight.

 

[Mewthree69]

I don't see why everyone is acting like it's insane that a good number of (essentially) legendaries are gonna need to get banned. That's really not that surprising.

I'm all for banning unhealthy stuff like Cyclizar and perhaps Revival Blessing, Supreme Overlord, Last Respects and Gholdengo, but it doesn't matter how many mons you ban, you likely cannot force Pre-DLC Scarlet/Violet meta to not be offense-heavy, and that's something that people must understand before getting too trigger-happy with bans, or we might end up with a tier that is functionally the same as it was before, but with UU mons instead.

 

[HawluchaMartini]

I'm all for banning unhealthy stuff like Cyclizar and perhaps Revival Blessing, Supreme Overlord, Last Respects and Gholdengo, but it doesn't matter how many mons you ban, you likely cannot force Pre-DLC Scarlet/Violet meta to not be offense-heavy, and that's something that people must understand before getting too trigger-happy with bans, or we might end up with a tier that is functionally the same as it was before, but with UU mons instead.

Is Cyclizar that unhealthy? Sure, it has regen, but let's make some calcs.
Cyclizar loses 50% and gets 33% back on switchout. We can expect both sides of the field to have rocks, maybe even a layer of spikes. This means Cyclizar loses 12/18% on switch-in, so it's hard for it to spam the move and keep the momentum on your team. (Though with Pawmot you could shuffle it in and out without a care but I believe Revival Blessing will get banned to Ubers at least)
To recover the lost HP, Cyclizar would have to switch in and out without the move two or three times, which means exposing it to damage with its mediocre bulk.

 

[Avira]

I won't rush to say that Cyclizar is unhealthy, but passing a 172 HP sub (I'm guessing all Cyclizar will run max HP) is definitely nothing to sneeze at even if its bulk is garbage, meaning that something might get a free Substitute if whatever mon is in front of Cyclizar is passive or mispredicts what Pokemon the Cyclizar user will bring in. Shed Tail is essentially baton passing a Substitute to something, which can let it bypass Intimidate and block moves that would status the incoming sweeper or wallbreaker. I wouldn't be surprised if Cyclizar is the main reason Triple Axel currently isn't in the game, which would be to prevent Weavile from most likely breaking the sub and chipping whatever comes in.

Is Cyclizar that unhealthy? Sure, it has regen, but let's make some calcs.
Cyclizar loses 50% and gets 33% back on switchout. We can expect both sides of the field to have rocks, maybe even a layer of spikes. This means Cyclizar loses 12/18% on switch-in, so it's hard for it to spam the move and keep the momentum on your team. (Though with Pawmot you could shuffle it in and out without a care but I believe Revival Blessing will get banned to Ubers at least)
To recover the lost HP, Cyclizar would have to switch in and out without the move two or three times, which means exposing it to damage with its mediocre bulk.

Heavy-Duty Boots exists, you know. I'm sure it'll be a common item on Cyclizar to maximize the number of uses of Shed Tail.

 

[TR_Admin]

Is Cyclizar that unhealthy? Sure, it has regen, but let's make some calcs.
Cyclizar loses 50% and gets 33% back on switchout. We can expect both sides of the field to have rocks, maybe even a layer of spikes. This means Cyclizar loses 12/18% on switch-in, so it's hard for it to spam the move and keep the momentum on your team. (Though with Pawmot you could shuffle it in and out without a care but I believe Revival Blessing will get banned to Ubers at least)
To recover the lost HP, Cyclizar would have to switch in and out without the move two or three times, which means exposing it to damage with its mediocre bulk.

You lead with Cyclizar, go for any Setup Sweeper that is now behind a sub. You obviously switch in something that resist the opposing pokemon, forcing it out while you setup and sweep.

 

[Lectrys]

This is the most excited I've been about OU in a long time!

(All calcs here assume that people don't just start Terastalizing into defensive typings countering the below or trying to get bootleg Adaptability with their Tera.)

I think people are sleeping on Quaquaval; that defensive typing is surprisingly good, having Rapid Spin and Roost is pretty nice, the 80-BP Aqua Step boosting Speed Flame Charge-style gives Quaquaval a niche over Urshifu-R, and the dancer duck can check the very dangerous Chien-Pao quite well as long as that bugger doesn't carry Psychic Fangs or Acrobatics:

Quaquaval @ Expert Belt
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Tera: Steel / Fairy
- Aqua Step
- Ice Spinner
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin

Use Life Orb if you want, but some of these calcs get pretty razor-edge with it in terms of surviving hits and not fainting while checking. Also note that you need Jolly to outspeed Chien-Pao after an Aqua Step.

Chien-Pao calcs assuming worst-case sane scenario of the equivalent of a -1 Def debuff:

252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Crunch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 178-210 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Sacred Sword (135 BP to simulate -1 Def aura) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 250-295 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Sacred Sword (see above) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 73-86 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 80% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Quaquaval Aqua Step vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 1066-1258 (354.1 - 417.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sadly, if Chien-Pao is (crazy enough to use) Life Orb and uses Sacred Sword into Ice Shard, attempting to set up with Aqua Step is not advised, as that attack combination can still KO.

As long as Dragapult isn't Specs/Band/LO/Thunder Wave/Will-o-Wisp, that same Quaquaval set can check Dragapult and snowball in its face:

252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 186-222 (59.8 - 71.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Dragapult Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 43-51 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Quaquaval: 225-265 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Quaquaval Aqua Step vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 78-92 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Quaquaval Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 250-295 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...If all else fails, there's checking Kingambit with some KOs under its belt as long as that guy isn't nuts enough to try Aerial Ace or Zen Headbutt (assuming a 1.5x Supreme Overlord multiplier here):

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 213-251 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 175-207 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingambit Iron Head vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 200-236 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingambit Brick Break vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 251-296 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingambit Low Kick (80 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 267-315 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Quaquaval Aqua Step vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 106-126 (31 - 36.9%) -- 72.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 763-898 (223.7 - 263.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Quaquaval Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kingambit: 566-667 (140 - 165%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sadly, you cannot try setting up Aqua Step on this guy, and you pretty much have to Close Combat Kingambit immediately.

This Quaquaval gets forced out by the one guy using (Chilling Water) Toxapex, but Quaquaval gets access to U-turn, so a slightly different set at least gets momentum on Pex.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm personally excited to try Gholdengo in OU, but the sheer number of crazy Ghosts and Darks in the initial meta means that this guy is going to need plenty of support (Dragapult check, Chien-Pao check, Chi-Yu check, Flutter Mane check, Roaring Moon check, Ting-Lu check, Iron Jugulis check, the list goes on...). I think a Substitute set will be among the best in the initial meta as a result, but that Dragapult check had better do work because Pult has Infiltrator.

Gholdengo @ Leftovers
Ability: Good As Gold
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 132 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera: Steel / Fairy
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Substitute
- Recover / Thunder Wave / Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast / Nasty Plot

This set dumps all EVs not needed in the calcs for Speed. Even with no Speed EVs, at least you outspeed max. Speed Adamant Kingambit and Sub in its face, and you also outspeed paralyzed Flutter Mane (in case you think Thunder Wave is better than Sub - Scarf makes both outspeed you).

At the very least, pushing Iron Valiant into using Knock Off (and physical Contrary Enamorus into using Earth Power, and special attacker Enamorus into using Earth Power) and making both fail to OHKO Gholdengo with that with the proper EVs is funny (as long as Iron Valiant doesn't get Sun support to go with that offensive item, that is - also note that Specs Mystical Fire Enamorus can 2HKO Gholdengo with that and avoid the OHKO in return some of the time with this Gholdengo set):

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gholdengo: 300-354 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Gholdengo Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 332-392 (114.8 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ouch, not even Make It Rain)

252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Gholdengo: 260-306 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 396-468 (137 - 161.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Actually, scrap that, this Gholdengo wins against Flutter Mane as long as it isn't Specs or has Sun support (you need 252/252+ Calm Gholdengo to survive Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball, and even that set has a chance of getting OHKOd after Stealth Rock):

252 SpA Life Orb Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Gholdengo: 299-354 (79.1 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Flutter Mane: 254-302 (100.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Local Dog]

Tbh I have no problem with an offense heavy meta, on paper. We didn't have a meta that really went into one clear direction of playstyle in a looooong time. This will break the mold after how Gens 6-8 were rather similar

How this will play out is still open, maybe it's gonna suck and be too offensive but I am just happy that things are getting spicy again for now

 

[poppySVfan]

Funny fact about Chien-Pao: its ability is not just equivalent to pre-nerf Intrepid Sword, it's better.
In a vacuum, a +1 ATK boost and a -1 DEF debuff against the opponent produce the same results (×1.5 dealt vs x1.5 damage taken), but things get interesting when you add Swords Dance to the mix.
+2 ATK vs -1 DEF is equivalent to +4 ATK vs base DEF, not to +3 as one might assume at first. This is because you're stacking x2 damage dealt and x.1.5 damage taken multiplicatively, so you're dealing TRIPLE damage.
This means that thanks to its ability a Chien-Pao that used Swords Dance hits as hard as a Weavile that used Swords Dance twice.

If you ever wondered what a Weavile with Zacian's offensive potential looked like, the answer is that it looks like a weasel/cat thing with a broken sword in its mouth... this had to be intentional lmao.

 

[Eclairius]

Funny fact about Chien-Pao: its ability is not just equivalent to pre-nerf Intrepid Sword, it's better.
In a vacuum, a +1 ATK boost and a -1 DEF debuff against the opponent produce the same results (×1.5 dealt vs x1.5 damage taken), but things get interesting when you add Swords Dance to the mix.
+2 ATK vs -1 DEF is equivalent to +4 ATK vs base DEF, not to +3 as one might assume at first. This is because you're stacking x2 damage dealt and x.1.5 damage taken multiplicatively, so you're dealing TRIPLE damage.
This means that thanks to its ability a Chien-Pao that used Swords Dance hits as hard as a Weavile that used Swords Dance twice.

If you ever wondered what a Weavile with Zacian's offensive potential looked like, the answer is that it looks like a weasel/cat thing with a broken sword in its mouth... this had to be intentional lmao.

The Ruinations abilities have been shown to works as auras, not direct stat drops (but apprently still on the same level?). It means that switching out isn't going to save you.
Also, Unlike Zacian, Unaware and Haze is useless when it comes to walling it. You can't reverse the momentum with spectral thief either.

 

[poppySVfan]

Yes these abilities are insane. The offensive ones are going straight to ubers, but let's talk about the defensive two instead since this is the OU thread.
Their types are questionable defensively and they don't get Recover, but their sheer bulk is still impressive and their movepool is passable. Wo-Chien has the now rare Knock Off, as well as Leech Seed and Foul Play, while Ting-Lu has Spikes and Whirlwind. Both are looking like solid OU material.

 

[Eclairius]

Yes these abilities are insane. The offensive ones are going straight to ubers, but let's talk about the defensive two instead since this is the OU thread.
Their types are questionable defensively and they don't get Recover, but their sheer bulk is still impressive and their movepool is passable. Wo-Chien has the now rare Knock Off, as well as Leech Seed and Foul Play, while Ting-Lu has Spikes and Whirlwind. Both are looking like solid OU material.

The thing that really worries me about Wo-Chien is its x4 weakness to U-turn. For reference:
-1 0 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wo-Chien: 136-160 (36.3 - 42.7%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The lack of good instant recovery make this kind of U-turn chip extremely impactful.
A bunch of the new offensive mons have strong U-Turn: Protean Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, and obviously Slither Wing. And there is all the previous strong U-turns to worry about.

 

[John Madden]

These are good questions. I'll have a look as some stage in the next day or so

Turns out I had some extra time on my hands so I got to test these out:

1. It does not restore the fainted mon's pp
2. You can use it on another mon who also has the move

 

[Lord Pxperto]

Someone else thinks SD urshifu is busted?

 

[Bugboy]

Someone else thinks SD urshifu is busted?

Sure but that doesn’t matter for half a year. Better to focus on the things that are arriving in a few days.

 

[Eeveeto]

Someone else thinks SD urshifu is busted?

I mean, the Dark one for sure.

The Watershifu on the other hand it's in this weird situation in which none of the sets are broken but themselves, but their combination might be.
SD + Stabs without Ice Punch is easily walled by Dragonite and Amoonguss among others.
SD + Stabs without Thunder Punch gets destroyed by Pex and Slowbro.
SD without Acua Jet gets revenge killed by every HO threat and even with Acua Jet it's not hard.
You can remove one of the Stabs and surprise the usual checks, but other checks appear once you reveal that set.
Unaware Mons (Quag and Dondozo) wall every SD set.

However, opponent has no way to know what moves do you have and scouting is hard with so many hazards. Add other Urshifu sets (Band, Scarf, Pads 4 attacks and even Whirlpool + Taunt) into the equation and the Mon becomes very hard to predict once it hits the field. This is a problem many prominent OU Mons will have this Gen though, so maybe Urshifu won't be the most restrictive one.

 

[Finchinator]

It seems likely that SV OU will begin with both Arena Trap and Shadow Tag on the banlist. This is not a formal, official announcement at all; it is technically subject to change. However, there will be a formal banlist provided upon the release of the generation and SV OU subforum.

On top of this, it is likely we will skip the formality and have the ability Moody on our banlist for whenever a Pokemon with the ability happens to be usable (slipping my mind as to if this’ll be immediately applicable).

As I previously mentioned, a formal banlist will be posted when the SV OU subforum goes up. I will begin the drafting process of this behind closed doors earlier this week so it is ready for Friday.

 

[Moistydripp]

Can someone do damage calcs for 252 Atk Ev meowscarada with choice band, grass tera and flower trick vs a defensive toxapex?