Suspect SS BH Suspect Test #3: Break Free [SHELL SMASH BANNED]

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a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
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What?
BH Council is beginning a suspect on Shell Smash as per discussion in the Balanced Hackmons thread and discord (see below)

Why?
Discussion concerning the legality of Shell Smash in Balanced Hackmons has dated back ever since its introduction in Gen V. Posts outlining recent discussion on the matter can be seen: (here, here, here, here)
  • Shell Smash is one of the most potent and dangerous setup moves in the game as unlike other setup moves, it bolsters both offenses and Speed by 2 stages after a single use. The only downside is it simultaneously lowers the user’s defenses by one stage.
    • This creates dangerous scenarios where mixed setup sweepers can abuse the boost in both their offenses in order to become deadly win conditions that can break through the majority of defensive cores given the coverage moves they chose. For example, Shell Smash abusers such as Necrozma-DW, Reshiram, Mewtwo, and Kyurem-B can use physical and special coverage to break through their respective checks. Specifically, mixed attackers can overcome defensive walls that rely on Fur Coat / Ice Scales in order to break through the defensive backbones of opposing teams and secure a sweep.
  • Due to the immediate pressure that Shell Smash setup causes, usually teams must resort to offensive means of checking such dangerous setup sweepers once boosted via Priority or Choice Scarf Imposter or have multiple Spectral Thief users to dissaude opposing Shell Smash setup, reducing the amount of viable teambuilding options to counteract the most dangerous of Shell Smash abusers.
    • Hyper Offensive teams in particular can abuse multiple Shell Smash abusers that can overwhelm countermeasures such as Prankster Haze or other defensive threats such as Fur Coat Eternatus and Ice Scales Zamazenta-C, creating unfavourable scenarios where the defender has to make perfect predictions to not be overwhelmed by Shell Smash setup spam.
    • The potential of Dynamaxing also further increases the offensive pressure that such sweepers can exert, making them difficult to pivot around and revenge kill as well due to the increased bulk.
  • However, Shell Smash does increase the frailty of the user after its used thanks to the defense drops, increasing the potential of being revenge killed via priority users or offensive checks such as Choice Scarf Imposter or other Scarf threats such as Zamazenta and Galarian Darmanitan-Zen
  • Prankster pokemon are also a common sight on the majority of non-hyper offensive teams, commonly running means in subduing setup sweepers via Haze, Encore, Topsy-Turvy, or Destiny Bond as well. However, Prankster users are matchup dependent with the smasher and can still be overwhelmed by STAB, coverage, or checked by anti-priority setup.

Still with all this in mind, the BH council has acknowledges how much of a strain that Shell Smash has on the current metagame and decided to go ahead with a suspect test.

How?
  • We will be using the new suspect process laid out by Zarel here (aka no COIL).
  • Therefore the requirements are simply 83 GXE with at least 35 games.
  • Do so by making a new alt with the sequence “Smash” in it anywhere, but not separated.
  • The alt must have a creation date on or after April 27, 2020
Smashing Songs (Acceptable)
Smelly Ashy Feet (Unacceptable)
Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim.

Shell Smash will be allowed in the ladder for the duration of this suspect; I would recommend using it as much as you can to get a feel of how it is in the meta and have a good idea of if it is broken/unhealthy, or if it is perfectly manageable after all.

Do:
  • Post your proof of reqs and, if you wish, your stance on the matter briefly, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
    • you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. We can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1 example2 example3
    • If you don’t do at least the above, your vote won’t be counted. We will be very strict about this.
  • Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS
Do NOT:
  • Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof of requirements (This should be posted in the main thread instead)
  • Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)
When?
This suspect period will last until May 11th, 2020 @ 11:59 EST We will try to begin the voting process immediately after confirming some other details on how it will be done and posting the Voter ID Thread similar to past suspects.

GLHF!
---
TLDR?
  • 83 GXE after 35 games with a new alt
    • “SMASH” alt with image proof IN THIS THREAD
  • Shell Smash ALLOWED on ladder
  • DEADLINE: May 11th, 2020 @ 11:59 EST
Tagging The Immortal to setup suspect and announcement on PS ladder games. Thank you!
 
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smash reqs.PNG

Got reqs on my first run, and it took a bit longer than I would have liked. All of my losses happened due to unexpected setup, and all but one of them was due to Shell Smash spam when I wasn't running the para spam team (the other loss was to a prankster Taunt / Clangorous Soul / Recover / Power Trip Snorlax that I let set up too far because I didn't realize it was Prankster). For most of the higher level games I ran a para spam team as well as a prankster hazer and plenty of Spectral Thief users and it was able to effectively combat most of the setup I saw, including the Fwqef RMT, but it still wasn't enough. There really is no consistent answer to all the offensive variations and possibilities available due to Shell Smash, and it creates dangerous 50 50's that are usually in the smash user's favor. Unlike many other suspect-worthy elements, Shell Smash can often cause the game to spiral way out of control for the defender, costing him two or more Pokemon just to remove the setup, since its users are often impossible to revenge kill. I am definitely voting ban.
The final version of the team that I had the most success with: https://pokepast.es/72583611154fbd4c
 

abriel

I’m with you.
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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Ban ban ban ban ban. Shell Smash is so unbelievably broken and I’m honestly kind of surprised it took this long to be looked at. With Shell Smash, things like the Unova dragons have basically no counters, and you basically just have to pray your prankster can take care of said smasher. Even then, considering how passive most pranksters are, the offensive player still has a huge inherent advantage. As shown in last week’s OMPL games, this meta can very easily boil down to who clicks shell smash first, so I will most definitely vote ban.
 
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Please listen to this.

If we are going to make Balanced Hackmons balanced, we must get rid of Shell Smash at all costs. There is absolutely no reason why brainlessly clicking Smash on mons that have no synergy with eachother should not only have valid win capabilities but also extremely consistent win capabilities. Prankster Haze, Prankster DB and priority simply do not work anymore with the extreme amount of tools that have been given to Pokemon over the generation. There is no reason this move should stay as it completely overcentralizes the metagame into a hyper offensive mess determined by RNG and matchup only. This move should be banned for eternity - I see no way that this move is going to become weaker.
 

lepton

im fragile, but not that fragile
is a Tiering Contributor
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tied once

please please please ban. everyone has p much already said my thoughts already, but i want to add that its kind of rps in bringing a normal team, smash spam and anti-smash spam.

(hiding team in case i use the sets in pl or ssnl)
 
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I tried making a hail offense team to try to counter other sash spam including my own HO but it didn't work as well as I thought and I struggled against imposter so I switched to my mono ghost stall which happens to have a good matchup against Al Qaeda. Sorry for unleashing this abomination on ladder LOL

Shell smash - ban, mixed smash sets are very hard to wall and good shell smash spams just run all over most normal teams. I found this set to be very annoying to play against though:
Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Strength Sap
- Anchor Shot
- Something

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one punch goon
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Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
I used a fairly standard team with a good amount of anti-setup. It was not difficult for me to get reqs unlike last time, especially given I have prepared my team with the expectation of facing a lot of setup. Shell Smash is an extremely abrasive presence on ladder. I've given my opinion on Shell Smash in thorough detail beforehand in the main BH thread. It's super overwhelming for most defenses and enables a ton of sets that are very difficult to check like mixed and lure sets. It is the strongest setup move with the most versatility.

I've been keeping a close focus on ladder even before this Suspect Test started. I watch battles very frequently. I've noticed something very unsettling since fwqef posted his RMT. The entire ladder is warping around that single team due to how effective it is. Even people who don't use fwqef's team draw influence from it due to people constantly using it on ladder. Shell Smash used to be semi-common at higher ladder with it being sparsely seen anywhere else. Now it is omnipresent in the meta, and that is not an exaggeration. You cannot get reqs without running into fwqef's team at least three or four times. I've faced his team, copy pasted, six times, all from different accounts during my climb, and I've seen odd variations of his team a few times more.

I want to make clear I do not have any problems with anyone. I am in good terms with fwqef. If I have to be brutally honest, I'm glad he posted that team because he brought Shell Smash into widespread attention by the community. I know many people had their opinions on Shell Smash before this, but it never had enough momentum to get action until recently. I'm aware this suspect isn't about his team, but his team highlights the issues with Shell Smash and has had a lasting negative impact in the metagame because of it. The main reason I even mentioned his team and put so much emphasis on it was because of a concern I wanted to voice regarding the meta. While I have had strong opinions about previous Suspects, I believe this one is extremely important because of the effect Shell Smash has had throughout the ladder the past month. We cannot afford to let the meta remain in this state. It isn't healthy. I'm voting Ban and I encourage everyone to do so as well. Keeping Shell Smash in this meta would be a mistake.

I had to re-post my reqs because the previous post didn't display the image properly. I included a imgur link this time. Would like to apologize about that.
 
Reqs:
1588480467284.png

To begin with this mess, I think 83% of 35 is too low a req to be allowing for vote on something as important as shellsmash. Shell smash is not nearly properly used or played with correctly until higher numbers, as sad as that may sound. It's BH, you need atleast 40 games and ranging ~1600 to stop seeing people who use shell smash Seismitoad. To prefice, I don't really have anything against people saying ban, but I do have a contesting opinion to it.

But as the main post of this thread asks me to only briefly talk about the subject, I will abide and leave my whole testing experience with it here:
Smash or Pass

Tl;dr: Shell smash is really good, it's incredibly hard to defend against, and it gives you an uncontrollable level of threat once clicked, allowing people to brainlessly spam it to win, are the claims being given throughout this thread. I Disagree and agree at the same time, any average good player can be hurt heavily if they mis-play and get Smashed on, but the act of defending against it is not as agonizing as people make it sound. You won't "Lose 2 pokemon just to defend it", and you won't "Die if the enemy is a mixed set, making it unwallable". But of course, I would need proof for it, so I used a stupid team, made it vulnerable to shell smash the moment any single member of my team was to faint. And I got the reqs despite the shellsmash "Spam", I did the same expirement with a super shellsmash abusive team, that was also made to counter any possible play and destroy regular teams, and won all the same, just alot faster and with less effort. However, you should read the pastebin to see why I voted what I voted. If there is a problem, it's not shell smash. It's shell smash + Focus sash.

As of now, I will vote no ban, but I don't want this thread right now anyway, as the expansion is soon, In my opinion, this ban vote is too quick to be precise over something as important as SS, and I'm sure others are conflicted about it too.
 
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3 pokemon of my team were using shell smash, and it seemed extremely hard for my opponents to wall all 3 of them. However, the thought that banning it could make FC/IC walls too hard to break still worries me. Well, I think I'd better take my time to decide whether to vote for the ban or not.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
hello everyone, since this suspect test was going on and lots of esteemed players were on i figured this would be a good time to conduct a neat science experiment to help me learn more about the game. my goal was to find out whether or not i was the greatest balanced hackmons player of all time.

to ensure that my results were consistent, i did most of my laddering at 5 am gmt (10 pm for me), meaning that i didnt play anyone above 1400 elo (ensuring that i only got the most integral of players, anyone in the palm of Big Elo was not worth my time, to put it nicely). i used the mid-ladder ou player-tier double scarf dragon balance that i used in ompl. here's how it went:



now, if you look at the screenshot, you may notice that there is a 2 under the L, indicating that i actually lost a game twice. however, i decided to use the analytical reasoning that i learned in my high school science classes. taking a closer look at these games, you can see that i lost because i actually tried to engage with the opponents team rather than playing hyper conservatively. i personally think this is lame as hell, and decided to not count the losses as a result.

in conclusion, i got no losses in 35 games. i didn't scroll through this whole thread but i'm pretty sure no one else has done that yet. given the fair and reasonable testing method i used, i think it is safe to say that i am the greatest balanced hackmons player of all time. i look forward to seeing what other respected scientists think of this work.

one more thing, i noticed that there was a shell smash suspect going on on the side. since i have undeniably proven myself to be the best of the best, i thought i could weigh in here and give my opinion on what was best for the meta. i wrote a 43,000 word tl;dr describing my thoughts which you can read here: https://pastebin.com/sT2hkt5

thank you all for reading.
 
I, for one, don't believe we should ban Shell Smash

Imo, nothing in Pokemon is so unbelievably broken that it's impossible to deal with, and Shell Smash is no exception.
Let's say if the opponent has Set up 2 Shell Smashes and is strong enough to OHKO pretty much anything in the game. This could include sweepers like Darmanitan or legendaries. There's tons of ways to go against it, since Shell Smash lowers defence, and sweepers tend to be frail, they'll usually set up Shell Smash and then get knocked down to 1HP due to Focus Sash. The sweeper can then be dispatched through any priority move in the game. Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, First Impression, take your pick.

Due to Prankster being a favourite (from what I've seen) ability in the meta, you can run Haze on a Prankster Pokemon to negate the Shell Smash. I've seen this in OU as I've seen a few Toxapex run the move to fairly decent success. Hazing out the boosts from Shell Smash give the opponent 2 options, attack or set up another Shell Smash. If I Shell Smash again, they'll have an opportunity to set up, or attack, which can put me into a bad situation. Prankster Pokemon can also take advantage of Taunt to prevent Shell Smash entirely, since most Shell Smash users tend to lead with the move from my experience. Another favourable ability to counter Shell Smash is Unaware. Possessing a bulky Pokemon with another (In my case, A Rotom-W) then you'll take less damage, which can give you time to set up, wall it out with Toxic, etc.

Looking at the specifics, It's usually sweepers who run Shell Smash. Then there's the potential for those buffs to be stolen through Spectral Thief or Imposter+Choice Scarf, etc. Unaware is a useful ability to have in this situation and is one I've seen on Pokemon like Eternatus to great success. Since It's BH, Pokemon will usually run quite varied movests to cover potentially difficult matchups. Bulky Pokemon with few weaknesses like Galarian Corsola or Rotom Wash with this ability can easily counter Shell Smash and can wall them out with moves like Protect, Toxic, Recover and Will-O-Wisp.

Fast and hard hitting Revenge killers with Focus Sash also work wonders against Shell Smash. Since Shell Smash users commonly run Focus Sash (some like to run Mental Herb but that leaves them susceptible to OHKOs) That means there's defences will be lowered, which leads them wide open for kill potential. An example of this is Unburden or Weak Armor which can double your speed on the second turn if you don't kill them initially. You'd preferably want your Revenge killer to be trial like Weavile or Barraskewda so your can more easily activate Undurden. Also, since Shell Smash lowers defence and raises speed, if you were to use Trick Room, they'd pretty much be sitting ducks for pretty much anyone since you're now going to be slower than the Shell Smash Pokemon. Granted, it takes a turn to set up Trick Room, but it also takes a turn to set up Shell Smash, so yeah.

You can also run other moves like Priority Skill Swap into Truant+Protect so that you can chip away at the attacker. You can also run Skill Swap Contrary so that they lose Attack and Speed instead of gaining it. You don't lose the swapped ability upon switching, so once you Skill Swap an opponent. They'll be practically useless for the rest of the fight.

Finally, Let's talk Dynamax. Dynamax in relation to Shell Smash can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, Dynamax makes their moves stronger, making it tougher to survive. In this instance, using Protect to last out the 3 turns or Burning/taunting/ neutralising the attacker in any of the ways discussed above can be rather effective against a Dynamaxed opponent. On the other hand, if you Dynamax, your take half damage from everything. making it easier to outlast and KO the opposing Pokemon whilst setting up yourself by gaining or lowering stats. Using Max Guard plus another move that buffs your defences or lowers your attack can be a great strategy to take care of Shell Smash.

In conclusion, as with most moves, abilities and strategies in Pokemon, Shell Smash can be adapted to and countered to without much effort. There's a lot of things that can deal with the move. In my opinion, It's no more deadly than moves like Clangorous Soul or No Retreat. If you find it obnoxious, then it can be countered. Either way, Everything in Pokemon has a counter, and Shell Smash is no exception.

So, yeah. Thanks for listening to my monologue and I look forward to hearing your replies
 

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Ren

i swore lips were made for lies
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Hey, I don't think you've actually played with half of the things you're mentioning in this post so allow me to clarify why I feel like your reasoning is flawed.

I, for one, don't believe we should ban Shell Smash

Imo, nothing in Pokemon is so unbelievably broken that it's impossible to deal with, and Shell Smash is no exception.
This is the first thing which I disagree with, but it's a difference in our fundamentals. If you feel like nothing is broken in this game, there's not really anything I can do to convince you otherwise since your philosophy is different from mine (and Smogon's), but I'll address the remainder of your points anyway.

Let's say if the opponent has Set up 2 Shell Smashes and is strong enough to OHKO pretty much anything in the game. This could include sweepers like Darmanitan or legendaries. There's tons of ways to go against it, since Shell Smash lowers defence, and sweepers tend to be frail, they'll usually set up Shell Smash and then get knocked down to 1HP due to Focus Sash. The sweeper can then be dispatched through any priority move in the game. Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, First Impression, take your pick.
I agree that this is a consequence of Shell Smash - but not for the reasons you're mentioning. For starters, this is an incredibly specific scenario. Shell Smash users can also be quite bulky and they're able to resist priority moves. Solgaleo has proven to be a premier Shell Smash user in the tier, and it resists priority. When analyzing an element in a suspect test, we look to see how it performs during its best applications. This entails analyzing why priority doesn't work. Now, I still think Shell Smash can be managed - It's just that you need a separate check for Solgaleo, and other Smashers for which your priority doesn't work. Personally I feel like that's fine.

I also feel like it's important to tell you that none of the priority you listed is actually good. The priority in this tier is really only Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W.

Due to Prankster being a favourite (from what I've seen) ability in the meta, you can run Haze on a Prankster Pokemon to negate the Shell Smash. I've seen this in OU as I've seen a few Toxapex run the move to fairly decent success. Hazing out the boosts from Shell Smash give the opponent 2 options, attack or set up another Shell Smash. If I Shell Smash again, they'll have an opportunity to set up, or attack, which can put me into a bad situation. Prankster Pokemon can also take advantage of Taunt to prevent Shell Smash entirely, since most Shell Smash users tend to lead with the move from my experience. Another favourable ability to counter Shell Smash is Unaware. Possessing a bulky Pokemon with another (In my case, A Rotom-W) then you'll take less damage, which can give you time to set up, wall it out with Toxic, etc.
I actually agree with your point on Prankster Haze. However, Prankster Taunt is incredibly costly to run - Most Prankster Pokemon run the bread and butter set of Recovery, Haze/Destiny Bond, and a trapping/pivoting move. This leaves 1 moveslot to run what you can - Be that whatever you didn't select from Haze/Destiny Bond, be that Encore, be that Spectral Thief, be that Court Change... The possibilities are endless. Taunt is the least of their priorities because not only does it not always work for what you want it to (Smashers) but Taunting Magic Bounce Pokemon can be incredibly unfortunate due to taking away your method of recovery. Unaware doesn't always work, either. For starters, a lot of the moves that Shell Smashers use are already powerful in their own right. The defensive walls in this tier tend to rely on their ability to counter already unboosted variants of these Pokemon, because the offensive power level of the tier is that much higher than the defensive bulk level. That's one of the reasons why Unaware doesn't really work. The other reason is with moves like Power Trip and Sunsteel Strike in the tier, Unaware doesn't really make much of a difference. Prankster does most of the things Unaware does, but it does them better while being better utility.

Looking at the specifics, It's usually sweepers who run Shell Smash. Then there's the potential for those buffs to be stolen through Spectral Thief or Imposter+Choice Scarf, etc. Unaware is a useful ability to have in this situation and is one I've seen on Pokemon like Eternatus to great success. Since It's BH, Pokemon will usually run quite varied movests to cover potentially difficult matchups. Bulky Pokemon with few weaknesses like Galarian Corsola or Rotom Wash with this ability can easily counter Shell Smash and can wall them out with moves like Protect, Toxic, Recover and Will-O-Wisp.
I'm gonna be honest - I feel like people aren't using Imposter enough. I feel as if it's pretty good, personally, but others disagree and that's their viewpoint. I can't contest yours here, though, because I agree with that part. I've already went over why I feel like Unaware isn't fantastic, so I'll leave that part. However, Galarian Corsola (while being outclassed by Dusclops) and Rotom-W also just don't have the bulk or typing to tank a lot of the Pokemon in this metagame. The counterplay you listed is also incredibly passive, which is very easy to take advantage of and doesn't really work even vs Shell Smash.

Fast and hard hitting Revenge killers with Focus Sash also work wonders against Shell Smash. Since Shell Smash users commonly run Focus Sash (some like to run Mental Herb but that leaves them susceptible to OHKOs) That means there's defences will be lowered, which leads them wide open for kill potential. An example of this is Unburden or Weak Armor which can double your speed on the second turn if you don't kill them initially. You'd preferably want your Revenge killer to be trial like Weavile or Barraskewda so your can more easily activate Undurden. Also, since Shell Smash lowers defence and raises speed, if you were to use Trick Room, they'd pretty much be sitting ducks for pretty much anyone since you're now going to be slower than the Shell Smash Pokemon. Granted, it takes a turn to set up Trick Room, but it also takes a turn to set up Shell Smash, so yeah.
Let me explain to you why none of what you say here is correct. For starters, Focus Sash is fine, but using it means you're not using another, more valuable item. This isn't exactly unheard of nor is it necessarily bad, but there is that opportunity cost to keep in mind. On top of that opportunity cost, you either need to have Stealth Rock off the field or you need to have Magic Guard. On top of this, you need to be at full health, meaning you can't have taken damage beforehand. The only Pokemon that really fits this criteria is Galarian DarmZ, which is a fine Magic Guard Sash user, but doesn't fit on every team with this set. Weak Armor is bad - It makes you weaker, it's in the name, don't ever actually run this. Unburden isn't that great either. Trick Room also only lasts for a few turns, while Shell Smash lasts as long as you don't die or switch out.

Now that I've covered why the stuff you listed doesn't actually work, lemme tell you how you should be handling Smashers. If you use a normal wallbreaker without priority, you have to take a hit because Shell Smash Pokemon are generally faster, which doesn't always work - But you listed Scarf Imposter, Prankster Haze and Priority, all of which can work. Use those, don't use the stuff in this paragraph.

You can also run other moves like Priority Skill Swap into Truant+Protect so that you can chip away at the attacker. You can also run Skill Swap Contrary so that they lose Attack and Speed instead of gaining it. You don't lose the swapped ability upon switching, so once you Skill Swap an opponent. They'll be practically useless for the rest of the fight.
Contrary is banned and your last sentence is just incorrect, that's not how it works. Like, mechanically. It just isn't how it works. At all.

Finally, Let's talk Dynamax. Dynamax in relation to Shell Smash can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, Dynamax makes their moves stronger, making it tougher to survive. In this instance, using Protect to last out the 3 turns or Burning/taunting/ neutralising the attacker in any of the ways discussed above can be rather effective against a Dynamaxed opponent. On the other hand, if you Dynamax, your take half damage from everything. making it easier to outlast and KO the opposing Pokemon whilst setting up yourself by gaining or lowering stats. Using Max Guard plus another move that buffs your defences or lowers your attack can be a great strategy to take care of Shell Smash.
got nothing to say here except fuck dynamax

In conclusion, as with most moves, abilities and strategies in Pokemon, Shell Smash can be adapted to and countered to without much effort. There's a lot of things that can deal with the move. In my opinion, It's no more deadly than moves like Clangorous Soul or No Retreat. If you find it obnoxious, then it can be countered. Either way, Everything in Pokemon has a counter, and Shell Smash is no exception.

So, yeah. Thanks for listening to my monologue and I look forward to hearing your replies
Here, we disagree with the idea that just because things have counters means they're healthy. I feel like in your post, there are a lot of misconceptions that indicate you haven't played much, so I recommend you start there. Resources here can help you, and I'm sure that anyone would be happy to help you with battling or building a team (except me, I'm lazy.) Welcome to Smogon, hope you have a good time here.
 
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