Resource SS Doubles OU Viability Rankings (updated 3/16 on post #43)

Corviknight 2 -> 3

Corviknight is the second of two birds that got overhyped at the beginning of SS. The Bulk Up + Leftovers set isn't as good of a wincon as it initially seemed, and it isn't hard for most balanced teams to fit multiple Corviknight checks. Arcanine and the Rotoms are quite popular, and special variants of Dragapult usually carry one of Fire Blast or Thunderbolt -- not to mention, any one of those three could be packing Will-o-wisp, which basically turns Corviknight into a do-nothing stall mon. The Tailwind set is ok, but other tier 1/2 mons are typically much better picks if you're seeking speed control utility.

Corviknight is a decent sand check and can come in handy if you're able to pick off all of your opponent's Fire and Electric attackers, but Tier 3 is a better spot for a mon that can absolutely become deadweight in some matchups.

Dracovish 2 -> 3

A wrecking ball in the right position, but extremely linear and predictable. It only hits hard with its Water-STAB, and most variants are choice locked into it. Life Orb is an option on Dracovish, but then it has a middling speed tier and requires good speed control. Most opposing teams will either have priority speed control supports (e.g. Whimsicott or Grimsnarl) and/or Follow Me supports (e.g. Togekiss or Indeedee-F) to prevent Fishous Rend's power boost from kicking in. Common Will-o-wisp users like Rotom-C/W and Dragapult also resist Dracovish's STAB, retaliating with a burn that will make Dracovish deadweight for the rest of the game. Dracovish also clicks X vs Gastrodon and Lapras.

Tier 3 describes Dracovish for what it is; a potentially potent Pokemon that struggles vs a good number of top tier threats.

Durant UR -> 4

After seeing Durant used in 4 SPL games I decided to look into this mon and try it out. It's definitely strong enough to be on the VR, although more time is probably needed to know how high it deserves to go. It feels like a faster and frailer Excadrill in some respects.

This is what I think a typical Durant set would look like, and you'd almost always want to Dynamax it if possible:
Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Stomping Tantrum / Protect
- Rock Slide / Protect

Durant has good speed and fantastic attack that is augmented through Hustle and Life Orb, and can make use of Dynamax to bypass Hustle's accuracy drop. Most notably, a Dynamaxed Durant can outspeed and OHKO Arcanine from -1 Atk, as well as Charizard.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Max Quake (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 393-463 (102.3 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Durant's bulk is problematic, especial on the special end, but Dynamaxing helps patch it up. Furthermore, Max Flutterby and Max Quake both help Durant compensate for its lackluster special bulk, and Steel/Bug is pretty good defensive typing if you can kill off opposing Fire-types.

Without Dynamax, Durant's accuracy is pretty problematic. In test games I feel like I've missed a lot of crucial moves when I used Durant outside of maxing it. Running Durant also forces you to think twice about Dynamaxing a different teammate, which can feel restrictive. On the right team though I think Durant earns its place and deserves a VR rank.

Rotom-H 3 -> 4 or 5

Rotom-H is about as good this gen as it was in previous gens. It's outclassed as both a Fire-type and a Rotom forme.

While Rotom-C and Rotom-W have great defensive typings to attack or wisp top physical threats like Tyranitar, Excadrill, Dracovish and Rypherior, Rotom-H is weak to all of the above. Electric/Fire is redundant for handling birds like Corviknight -- usually it's better to split out fire and electric coverage over two or more mons (e.g. Arcanine and Rotom-C/W) when building a balanced team.

I don't have too much more to say about Rotom-H, other than I can't think of very many cases where it's worth using over Arcanine as a Fire-type, or Rotom-C/W as a Rotom.


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gothitelle to 1

last gen, incin goth was a very strong pairing, in part because fake out + shadow tag offers little counterplay besides "getting flinched", while goth was free to do whatever it wanted as long as what it wanted to do was set trick room. this gen, fake out + shadow tag is still an extremely powerful combination. however, the key difference is that you get to have a pokemon that isn't gothitelle doing whatever it wants to do during that key fake out turn, and other pokemon are better at punishing trapped and flinching opponents than gothitelle. the combination of shadow tag + fake out + another slot is very oppressive and it can be used in a myriad of ways, such as boosting something, allowing a partner to get a free switch into trapped mons that it beats, revenge killing a threat, or anything else a team could want to do with free turns. fake out completely changes gothitelle as a pokemon and it should be evaluated as the monstrous support that it now is this gen. it still does all of the other stuff it did last gen (helping hand shadow tag is very murdery, hypnosis is oppressive, heal pulse combines with damage reduction to get pretty oppressive, trick room is obviously great) but nothing that any other pokemon offers compares to what fake out goth can do to completely take over a board, and it belongs in tier 1.


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Gothitelle 2 -> 1 is the single most oppressive support pokemon in the format and has been for the last 4 years. On top of that it interacts very strongly with the Dynamax mechanic for various reasons. As Nails said, S rank seems correct

Whimsicott 1 -> 2 is losing bad in SPL with horrendous winrate and it's not like Whimsicott hasn't been doing anything. Whimsicott almost always gets off what it wants unless it loses the Whimsicott speed tie into getting Taunted or get Fake Out double targeted for KO - which are either unreliable counterplay or requires a lot of investment. In fact a lot of times you see Whimsicott you see them get the early tailwind off, or Sunny Day / Fake Tiers into quick kills which is exactly what Whimsicott aims to do. It's getting things off that it wants; it's just not translating to Ws because of its temporary control over the board actually doesn't translate well to the long term game. A lot of times Whimsicott teams are able to take early KOs with its strong offensive support moves but it often only truly shines with Dynamax support, and it's hard to save up Whimsicott to be active exactly when you want it to, as it has awkward time switching in.

Arcanine 2 -> 1 Is the most used Pokemon by half a mile. Not only does it have strong winrates, its Intimidate and nice access to Snarl let it do a lot in every match it was brought.

Corviknight 2 -> 3 it feels a bit passive and doesn't excel at anything. It's a good Excadrill check but they can just ignore that slot. It can Tailwind but its one of the worse options at that. Excadrill is the superior offensive fairy check. It's just not a Pokemon that proactively pressures the opponent, which is why I deem it on par w/ Celesteela / Ferrothorn type Pokemon that were previously stuck at 3, too.
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Gothitelle 2-->1
Every time this mon is in a team, it guarantees game-changing opportunities for its teammates.
Turn 1: Fake Out to save a teammate.
Turn 2: Ally Switch to save a teammate, again.
Turn 3: Teammate thank Gothitelle for giving it 3 opportunities to attack.

Durant UR-->4
Although it's naturally faster than Excadrill, it shares the same misfortune and situation as Dracozolt; the mon must gamble against its ability (Hustle) or avoid it through Dynamax.


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The slate's up, see below for votes + reasonings. I'm planning to run the Low-Tier Sweep monthly or bi-monthly; I don't think it would be needed as often as last gen with only 4/5/UR and the tiers being much smaller. Definitely wanted to do one for this slate though, I think there were some pretty clear examples of mons that just didn't catch a niche once we delved a bit further into the meta.

Also, Demantoid has decided to step down from VR council, and we'll miss him dearly. However, we've added a new face in Ezrael who brings another different perspective on the meta thanks to his style of play and VGC experience. Welcome aboard! :blobwizard:

Arcanine Tier 2 → Tier 1
MajorBowman: ehhh I’m honestly not sure. I think I’m gonna vote for 2 for now but I could be convinced to bump it to 1 in the future. Its utility is hard to deny, especially when it’s one of the faster things in the meta right now, but it’s still somewhat one dimensional and the only value the offensive Justified sets have is surprise factor.

talkingtree: Yes, this is so easy to fit on almost every team that isn't fullroom. I keep accidentally finding myself with Arc on every team.

Croven: yeah it’s ridiculously splashable, i’m good with this

Emforbes: yes, best glue mon that almost feels required to handle popular threats.

Ezrael: 1. It’s the only good intimidator, and it’s basically required on any bulky offense team. Damage reduction is really good to counteract Dynamax and Arcanine has 3 forms of that, along with fire coverage that can be elusive in SS DOU.

SMB: yes, best intimidate mon, best fire type, wow and snarl are very useful and it’s really splashable
Togekiss Tier 2 → Tier 1
MajorBowman: Yes, this thing is a monster. The offensive sets are really strong and it’s a fantastic dynamax mon, while a more defensive follow me set is still pretty potent. Big fan.

talkingtree: Yeah, read Nails's nom because he fully convinced me.

Croven: yeah, don’t have much to add

Emforbes: yeah, agreed with everyone.

Ezrael: Busted. Also, flinching people is really fun.

SMB: yes, everything was said in the nom
Indeedee-M Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: Yes, really haven’t seen this used much at all. Could be neat in theory but would need to see some evidence to raise it any higher than 5 for now, might even argue for UR.

talkingtree: UR, this mon is pretty much irrelevant to be honest. I can see it has potential and Yoda's Indeedee/Drifblim team was one of my favorites early-meta, but having it on the VR (or certainly in Tier 4) isn't representative of its current place in the meta.

Croven: UR, agree w tree lol

Emforbes: also UR, this mon is trash

Ezrael: My nom, I’m fine with UR

SMB: UR, sobad
Corviknight Tier 2 → Tier 3
MajorBowman: Yes, this is a mon I think we overrated at the very beginning of the meta. The Bulk Up set is great but it still takes an L to some important mons and it’s not a super great Tailwind setter either.

talkingtree: 3. Trashing Excadrill is great and all but it's kind of underwhelming in most other situations to me.

Croven: yes :( hasnt been doin too hot lately

Emforbes: yeah, agreed again.

Ezrael: I’ve grown to like this mon more as I’ve played with it some, but it’s not a tier 2 mon. Corviknight needs a specific kind of team to support it, and doesn’t get going fast enough to be a massive threat.

SMB: tier 2, great sand check and probably one of the best win conditions. As stratos told me once; corvinight is the cm cress of this gen.
Dracovish Tier 2 → Tier 3
MajorBowman: Yes, another mon that we thought was good because of new toy syndrome but is really pretty ok. Fishious Rend is terrifying but if you’re clicking any other move its damage output is pretty disappointing.

talkingtree: Yes, having a new move + powerful mechanic always makes something seem better than it is (see Hoopa-U and Hyperspace moves), but Dracovish really isn't the behemoth it was made out to be at one point.

Croven: yes we been overhypin a lot

Emforbes: yes, i think it should be dropping further to 4 or 5 though.

Ezrael: Yes. Vish getting outsped by Dragapult and one shot even when scarf puts a dent in its effectiveness. The fact that Togekiss can Follow Me and halve Dracovish’s damage is another mark against it, which makes it hard to nuke the things you want to nuke. Would be fine with 4 as well.

SMB: yes, it hasn’t got any usage in spl afaik, probably a little bit overhyped at the beginning of the gen. Once the tier settled down and togekiss, gastrodon or dragapult were found to be this good dracovish started losing relevance
Durant UR → Tier 5 → Tier 4
MajorBowman: 5. Super reliant on dynamax to not give you a heart attack every time you click a move, and even though it’s super strong and has pretty good coverage, it has pretty poor defensive typing and very mediocre bulk.

talkingtree: 5, nearly requiring all its teammates to go without DMaxing themselves is a pretty big opportunity cost. Definitely a threat worth respecting though.

Croven: 5. Can be threatening but reliance on dmax is like :/

Emforbes: 5, very potent mon when positioned properly with dmax, but defensive counterplay isn’t exactly lacking.

Ezrael: 5, but I could see myself going 4. Clicking moves with Hydro Pump accuracy a lot is scary, but First Impression can do a lot even from unmaxed Durant. I think it can get value when not maxed in a way that mons like Lapras have a hard time with.

SMB: 5, i guess it’s threatening enough when dynamaxed
Rotom-H Tier 3 → Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: Stay 3, fire types are super valuable and as one of like 3 viable fires Rotom-H is a pretty important pokemon. Offensive and defensive sets are both good and it can fit on a bunch of teams.

talkingtree: 4, I think Heattom has a sometimes-overlooked niche in being the most reliable answer to Togekiss due to resisting all of Air Slash / Dazzling Gleam / Flamethrower. The other birds aren't quite as important as they once were though, and Arcanine's splashability can outshine it.

Croven: 3. Agree with bowman

Emforbes: 3, while I don’t think rotom is amazing it definitely shouldn’t be dropping that low. Nasty plot sets have a lot of potential imo.

Ezrael: 3, agree with Emforbes.

SMB: I just don't see this mon being useful by any means, typing is "ok" but it doesn't check the stuff it's supposed to check; electric type that loses to water types and levitate mon that sometimes loses to sand. I'm going to say tier 4 because it's the only fire type that fits on balance teams apart from arcanine but I wouldn't mind ranking it even lower.
Gothitelle Tier 2 → Tier 1
MajorBowman: I mean I guess, I’m still in the camp that doesn’t really buy into the gothitelle worship but it definitely got better in gen 8 and can be really annoying to a lot of teams.

Ezrael: 1. Gothitelle offers a bit too much for the slot it has right now. The ability to switch in goth and a partner into a board that doesn’t want to switch out has been under-utilized. Not only do those mons get trapped in, but one of them gets faked out, and your partner can set up/deal damage for free. One of the best support mons.

talkingtree: Yes. Gothitelle is stupid good at most everything it does.

Croven: yep. Bang othitelle

Emforbes: Abstain, I haven’t played against it or used the mon enough myself. I will say that I don’t think it’ll stay in tier 1 once we reach later stages of gen 8.

SMB: 2, tier 1 might be too much, shadow tag is broken as it was in previous gens and this thing has never been tier 1. I honestly don’t think it has improved this gen, I’d say it’s just the same. It got fake out ok, but there's also a new almost "unpredictable" broken mechanic immune to it that can make goth useless sometimes.
Whimsicott Tier 1 → Tier 2
MajorBowman: No, Whimsicott is a pretty dynamic Pokemon that can bring tons of utility to a wide variety of teams. Having a pokemon as fast as Whimsicott is super valuable for chip damage or finishing off weakened Pokemon too, I think Whimsicott definitely deserves tier 1.

talkingtree: Stay 1. I agree that Whimsicott isn't quite as viable as it once was but I think it's really only fallen from the top of 1 to the bottom of 1. There are so many things Whimsicott can capably do, so the utility and flexibility it offers are (imo) enough to keep it in 1.

Croven: ehhhh i’ll stick with 1 for now, but given a little more time im open to seeing this drop. Just haven’t seen enough yet to definitely say it should drop

Ezrael: I’m inclined to drop it, but I’m gonna look at the way the meta develops. I think that having speed control options to deal with opposing dynamax can be pretty important. 1 for now, but nom this again in a month or so and we’ll see what happens.

Emforbes: 2, this mon is really overrated, especially in 6v6. It has fake tears but has never given me serious trouble. Extremely easy to play around, takes up 2 important defensive typings in grass fairy, and is still lackluster offensively. It rarely wants to dmax, so dealing with it is pretty linear. The lack of good grass types in the dex sucks, but whim is definitely not as splashable as its usage would seem.

SMB: Definitely the worst mon in tier 1 but I’m going to say keep it there because of the huge support movepool it has and how unpredictable it can be.

:arcanine: Tier 2 → Tier 1
:togekiss: Tier 2 → Tier 1
:indeedee: Tier 4 → UR
:corviknight: Tier 2 → Tier 3
:dracovish: Tier 2 → Tier 3
:durant: UR → Tier 5
:gothitelle: Tier 2 → Tier 1
:aegislash: Tier 4 → Tier 5
:araquanid: Tier 4 → Tier 5
:barraskewda: Tier 5 → UR
:bisharp: Tier 4 → Tier 5
:chandelure: Tier 5 → UR
:darmanitan-galar: Tier 4 → Tier 5
:gengar: Tier 5 → UR
:hawlucha: Tier 5 → UR
:jellicent: Tier 5 → Tier 4
:mimikyu: Tier 5 → UR
:scrafty: Tier 4 → Tier 5
:toxtricity: Tier 5 → UR

Lots of changes this time around, and the vast majority were drops. Hopefully this slate fixed some more of the overhyping issues, but continue weighing in on what might need updating!
I’m on my phone rn so this won’t be my most eloquent post but

Hitmontop UR -> 5 or 4

Has been used several times in SPL thanks to the popular Lapras + Hitmontop builds.

In general it is a decent check to both Excadrill and TTar, and access to Mach Punch give top a niche over scrafty. Wide Guard utility is also relevant.

I don’t think I need to mention it but intimidate + fake out support is always great in dou.

If you use top bring good goth checks, but yeah top deserves to be listed
Hippowdon to tier 5

Hippowdon is actually pretty good as a sand setter, and it brings a different dimension to ttar. Arguably better typing, nice recovery and a couple of good sets definitely give it a good niche in gen 8.

Curse/Stockpile with body press is something I havent used much but is really dangerous if left unchecked. My personal favourite set is SR / Yawn / STAB / Slack Off. Yawn and SR are both great moves for dealing with dynamax targets and the large number of rock weak mons, respectively. They also combo quite nicely together, forcing switches with yawn to rack up sr damage, and make hippowdon a major pain to get rid of.

You should give this mon a go! It is absolutely better than gigalith as an alternative sand setter and deserves to be ranked.


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Hey everyone, now that Home's been out for a little while, the VR council is going to vote on where to place the new Pokemon that were added in addition to the above nominations. If you'd like to make nominations related to the release of Home, either arguing for where Home mons should be placed or changes to current Pokemon because of movepool additions, get those in and we'll take your thoughts/nominations into account!
I've been talking to Elegy and Paraplegic a bit and the concensus that I got from those conversations and observations of the ladder is that Sun (with semiroom in particular) is rising, Sand is falling. Melmetal, Incineroar and Terrakion are great. Fullroom has taken a hit but is still viable, although it will probably have to innovate more than replacing Rhyperior with Melmetal to regain prominence in the meta. It will be interesting to see if these trends also carry over to SPL matches or something else is discovered.

Incineroar UR -> 1
We all know how good it was in SM and nothing much has changed and what has changed is largely for the better. With Parting Shot it can phase Hatterene and is an excellent partner for Gothitelle. Wil-o-wisp is another usable move on Incin to ensure that you beat the Iron Defence + Body Press Melmetal set as well as having other utility. Fake Out isn't as spammable because of Dynamax but Incineroar has plenty more to offer (not to mention that no Dynamax mon wants to get its stats dropped by Parting Shot)

Melmetal UR -> 1
People are calling for a suspect for this mon for a reason. It has fantastic stats, backed up by its mono steel typing. Double Iron Bash is extremely powerful and comes with a 51% flinch rate that makes running Jolly on a base 34 speed mon a legitimate option. A number of sets are seeing success on the ladder from Band (OHKOs Indeedee through Sash), Iron Defence + Body Press (Beats non wisp Incin), Substitute, Weakness Policy, Assault Vest, Lum + Swagger and probably others. Sand is seeing a sharp decrease in usage on the ladder simply because Melmetal is just a much better steel than Excadrill.

Terrakion UR -> 1
Terrakion is a strong offensive mon with a fantastic speed tier, 2 good offensive STABs and solid 91/90/90 defences to top it off. With this alone it would probably be worth rank 2/3 but it is also the face of the dreaded Beat Up + Justifed combo. Whimsicott and Dragapult are both good Beat Up partners and there is very little opportunity cost in running either as they are excellent mons by themselves.

Keldeo UR -> 2/3
Keldeo is pretty good from what I've seen. It has good offences and a great speed tier. It matches up fairly well against the new top additions to the meta, resisting steel and being able to OHKO Melmetal with LO Aura Sphere and having a good Incineroar matchup. It STABs leave it walled by some common pokemon, such as Dragapult, Whimsicott (can't 2HKO without Hydro Pump), and Venusaur and it can't really solve these issues too much with its third moveslot (Icy Wind is ok but is a little bit weak). Overall its a solid pokemon with a few noticeable flaws that keep it from the top rank.

Venusaur UR -> 3/4
With Melmetal taking over Excadrill's role as the best steel Sun is starting to rise as the best weather (Sun semiroom in particular is a very strong archetype right now, imo). Teams seem to be poorly prepared for sleep with no good Misty/Electric Surge mons and the best Electric (Rotom) isn't protected from Sleep by setting Electric Terrain due to Levitate. Venusaur has access to good coverage moves and a much faster Sleep Powder than Vileplume. It does struggle to decide what moves out of STABs + Sleep Powder + Protect + Earth Power + Weather Ball to run and it is used exclusively on Sun teams, which prevents it from being ranked any higher.

Excadrill 1 -> 2/3
Excadrill is no longer the best steel type in the format. Melmetal is better in basically every aspect except speed. Sand is arguably not the best weather any more and should be reflected by dropping Excadrill.

Indeedee (F) 2 -> 3/4
Indeedee's claim to fame of ensuring Trick Room gets set is gone. Banded Melmetal OHKOs Indeedee through its Focus Sash and Incineroar is hurting the viability of fullroom even if Trick Room still goes up. It still has plenty to offer the metagame but it is no longer worthy of tier 2.

Torkoal 4 -> 3
The return of Incineroar may have hurt fullroom's viability but Sun is seeing some decent success on the ladder. Gothitelle, Melmetal, Torkoal (often level 99) and Venusaur form a solid core of broken mons + Trick Room killer/sun setter + fast Sleep and offer a decent amount of flexibility in the last slot. Torkoal doesn't offer anything that it didn't pre-Home but the addition of Melmetal and Venusaur have opened up more opportunities to fit Torkoal on a team.

Ludicolo 3 -> 4/5
Rain is surprisingly bad in SWSH and Ludicolo hasn't seen much success compared to the other tier 3 and 4 mons. Rain hasn't really gained that much with Home releasing either. Venusaur beats Ludicolo so I can't even see Rain rising as a check to opposing Sun.

Pelipper 3 -> 4/5
Again Rain just isn't what it was in SM and as the sole Rain setter Pelipper should drop accordingly.

Gothorita UR - Could go anywhere tbh, maybe just rank Gothitelle as 'Gothitelle/Gothorita'
As Stax has shown in pre-Home SPL Gothorita is a viable alternative to Gothitelle. After the pinch Berry nerf the difference between Eviolite Gothorita and Sitrus Gothitelle is much less significant than in SM and Eviolite Gothorita has better bulk than Gothitelle. With the release of Incineroar and transfer moves we might find that Gothorita's reliance on Eviolite makes it too vulnerable to Knock Off but until then Gothorita should be respected as an alternative to Gothitelle.

Rhyperior 2 -> 3
Rhyperior is another victim of Melmetal's introduction to the meta. Melmetal is often a better choice than Rhyperior, it's slower for Trick Room, has a better defensive typing, hits harder and has a higher flinch rate. Rhyperior is not always outclassed, however, and offers Rock/ Ground Stab and a Fire resistance compared to Melmetal's Fire weakness but it is in a worse spot than pre-Home.

Ferrothorn 3 -> 4/5
With the release of Incineroar and the increased popularity of Sun Ferrothorn checks are in abundance right now. Ferrothorn doesn't tend to offer enough to teams to be ranked at 3 either, imo. It feels much like in SM where the meta has settled a bit and people have solid teams that are able to deal with passive threats such as Ferrothorn.

Hatterene 3 -> 4/5
Incineroar has a great fullroom matchup and Hatterene, unlike Torkoal, has nowhere else to go. Parting Shot forces out even Gigantamax Hatterene which sucks for it.

Hydreigon 3 -> 4/5
Hydreigon did get buffed with Tailwind being legal again but it really struggles against Keldeo/Terrakion. It is threatened by Whimsicott, Braviary and most mons faster than it, which makes it a mediocre Tailwind setter.


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I agree with most of the previous posts but gonna disagree with Indeedee dropping too much if at all. Psychic Terrain is still extremely useful for positioning, preventing Fake Out from Incineroar on a majority of Pokemon and also shutting down Grimmsnarl for the most part. It also has a positive matchup vs (non-broken Beat Up) Terrakion thanks to its bulk and surprisingly powerful Psychic. It's the best redirection in the format right now imo, which brings me to:

Togekiss 1 -> 2/3 (Wherever Indeedee ends up??)

It got everything it wanted back from home in Tailwind and Roost... except it also got a few unwanted friends along the way. Terrakion and Melmetal both dunk on it, Zeraora in theory dunks on it, and the general power level in the tier has risen to the point where it just cant rely on its typing + natural bulk to sit around on the field for a while. It's also no longer a super worthwhile dynamax option, since you're going to be doing much more damage overall if you max something like Melmetal or Terrakion. It's _ok_ but ok doesn't get you tier 1.
Tier 3 Definition and Mons <-> Tier 4 Definition and Mons

Tier 4 currently consists of powerful mons that are limited to use on specific teams, however they are often the driving force behind the strength of said teams. Tier 3 should still consist of mons that are generally powerful in a versatility sense, but also powerful in specific situations. There are a number of mons in Tier 3 that have significantly less upside than those in Tier 4, but also have less general value than those in Tier 3.

I'd like to redefine Tier 3 to: "Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes."

as well as Tier 4 to: "This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles. "

With redefined definitions, I'd like to nom the entirety of Tier 4 to Tier 3:

as well as nomming these mons to Tier 4 from Tier 3:

Leaving the rest of Tier 3 in Tier 3, as they still fit the definition of being generally versatile, but less powerful than Tier 2:


Double Threat
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Snorlax 2 -> 4
Rotom-C 2 -> 3 or 4
Sylveon 2 -> 3
Blastoise UR -> 3
Braviary 2 -> 4
Durant 5 -> 3 or 4
Milotic 5 -> 4
Arcanine 1 -> UR
Incineroar UR -> 1

Too often Snorlax finds itself getting burst down before it can put in work with dmax. It needs to pull off a Drum, max, hit something, get the 50% proc, and eat the berry in gmax form just to get back to parity with the amount of hp recovered in gen 7. Snorlax was at its most toxic last gen when it was spamming Recycle and was unkillable, and that element is completely gone. The loss of Frustration is big too, as Facade and 120 BP Max Strike often struggle to pick up kills which is not something you want your heavily supported drummer to have as an issue. Add in the return of Knock Off Incineroar and you get a package that isn't reliable and often falls short, as shown by its 2-6 SPL record.

The typing of Rotom-C really doesn't offer much over Rotom-W. It adds a bunch of weaknesses while the resistances it provides (Grass, Electric) are barely relevant in gen 8 doubles. Leaf Storm is a worse move than Hydro Pump and it doesn't get a higher max move bp to make up for it. Hitting Gastrodon is nice but it still requires you to switch out or blow your max thanks to Leaf Storm being a mediocre attack, and the Fire weakness is, if not crippling, a major negative. Rotom-W isn't a tier 1 mon but it's clearly better than Rotom-C so they shouldn't be ranked the same. I'd be fine with 3 or 4, I'll let the council pick.

Sylveon struggles in a format filled with powerful physical attackers. It has to pick its spots way more carefully than it'd like to, given its role as a mon that wants to hit the field and start yelling at anyone that will listen. Hitting Dragapult through redirection is nice, but Togekiss does that too and has so many other toys to work with, and the added power often isn't worth the loss of a crapton of utility (Sylveon falls further behind with Togekiss gaining Tailwind). CM is lackluster and gets blown up before it gets to live out its opera diva fantasies.

Blastoise is the only redirection mon that doesn't get blown up by Terrakion (Charti Togekiss is not the answer memo). That alone would be a solid niche, but Fake Out + Follow Me, a combination that used to be limited to Smeargle, is now on a mon with 79/100/105 bulk. This is Very Potent. Admittedly, Blastoise could be categorized as a two trick pony (Scald is a solid enough stab move, Toxic is decent, Yawn/Life Dew/HH/Body Press are a little cute but ultimately lackluster, Haze and Roar are bleh) but those are two damn good tricks, and especially in a pre-bans format its strong matchups into Terrakion and Melmetal warrant a position pretty high up the VR (though it doesn't rely on dealing with toxic threats to retain relevance).

Braviary is extremely mediocre. No one brought Braviary pre-Melmetal because it sucks. It now faces a format that has lots more reasons to use Rotom-W. There are a bunch of better options if you want Airstream support. Tier 2 is laughable, it belongs with Dracovish.

Durant is powerful. Steel and Ground are two of the best typings for max moves and it abuses both very effectively. First Impression gives it a strong option to go for when not maxed, allowing it to pick off pokemon at surprisingly high HP:

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 468-554 (115.8 - 137.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 239-282 (78.6 - 92.7%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 160-190 (50.4 - 59.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 203-239 (46.7 - 55%)

Those aren't frail mons! Aside from First Impression it has a bunch of good enough coverage options. Especially given the shuffle of tiers 3 and 4 that Tman posted about I'm not sure precisely where it goes, but it certainly deserves a bump.

Milotic is pretty decent. Stat drops are flying around more than they ever have been before, and there aren't any phenomenal water types for Milotic to get overshadowed by. While it was (more or less) a complete meme in past gens, Coil + Hypnosis is actually a real set this gen thanks to how well sleep responds to and synergizes with Dynamax. I don't think it's phenomenal but it deserves a nudge up. This isn't related to Incin dropping, it's just a bit better than the VR currently has it.

Dog is gone. Is cat now.
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Milotic 5->4 With Incineroar back Milo is solid again. This mon is still a great intimidate counter, and now it can even switching on parting shots. I think it's valid on enough teams that it better fits the definition of tier 4.

Zeraora UR->3/4 This mon is probably the best snarl user we have this gen, combine that with av and you have a nice special atk counter. (obv it has fout too) Zeraora offers itself as an alternative electric option to rotom in a meta where flying types are quite popular.

Time to completely overhaul Tier 1. Out with the old, in with the new:
Excadrill 1->2 This mon isnt what it once was. Like Yobuddy said, Excadrill is greatly outclassed by Melmetal, and sand is declining.
Melmetal UR->1 Suspect this. Melmetal is an absolutely incredible mon, and it's actually difficult to NOT find a place for it to thrive on a post-home team.
Incineroar UR->1 yeah duh
Terrakion UR->1 People are calling for a beat up ban for a reason. Dynamax, new speed mechanics, and Terrakion have turned beat up from a meme to an unhealthy monster.
Togekiss 1->2/3 Completely agree with Tennisace's post. Melmetal, Terrak, and Zeraora are all serious problems for Togekiss, and now that Blastoise exists it's no longer always the best follow me mon for a non-troom team.


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Slate time! After discussing with the VR Council, we've decided to follow through on Tman's proposal for the re-organization of tiers 3 and 4, so their labels in the OP will be changed to reflect that. Since this was our first time placing new mons released from the Home meta, I decided not to have us do a low-tier sweep this time around. We'll definitely do one soon because tiers 4 and 5 are huge, but there were already plenty of things to vote on :psyduck:

Hitmontop UR → Tier 5 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4. Hitmontop has a very useful niche in this format which is a fake out intimidator that can, with priority, activate many weakness policies. Sucker/Mach/BP can activate WP on pult/lapras/melmetal/togekiss efficiently and in a manner that can be hard to respond to. Lots of activators are weak to being faked out, but hitmontop scares away the t1 fake out from a potential incineroar by being faster and having the ability to fake out incineroar’s partner, effectively wasting the incin player’s turn. Finally, wide guard is cool and few other mons have it.

talkingtree: 4, read that^

emforbes: 5, I agree that top is useful for activating policy. Outside of that niche I think the mon is pretty garbage though, I'd almost always rather use conk.

SMB: tier 4, agree with ezrael

Croven: tier 4, i think ezrael got the main points

MajorBowman: 5, agree with emforbes
Hippowdon UR → Tier 5
Ezrael: 5, why not. It’s not too much worse than ttar going into a melmetal format.

talkingtree: abstain, haven't seen it

emforbes: Abstain

SMB: Tier 5 is fine, it has potential and a pretty good moveset, I also agree it looks like a better sand setter than ttar lol

Croven: Abstain

MajorBowman: No, haven’t seen this used at all and super fat mons are harder to use in offensive formats like this one
Excadrill Tier 1 → Tier 2 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 2-- Melmetal competes heavily for the steel type. Excadrill can still get the nod on teams for the phenomenal speed tier and stab Ground coverage.

talkingtree: 2, still plenty good just not nearly as ubiquitous or dominating

emforbes: agreed with jon and tree

SMB: honestly I haven’t seen excadrill get usage in this format, my vote goes to either tier 2 or 3 because i haven’t used it myself but it’s not tier 1 material anymore

Croven: 2, agree w ezrael and ttree

MajorBowman: 2, ezrael and tree said it well
Indeedee-F Tier 2 → Tier 3 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4. It’s not the important part of Hard TR, and it doesn’t really find a place on any other teams. It’s outclassed by blastoise and Togekiss.

talkingtree: 4, fits the new tier 4 description quite well

emforbes: 4, it sucks and I would not be surprised for it to go to 5 soon.

SMB: tier 5, I wouldn’t even run this on full tr anymore since it’s so weak to incineroar and melmetal which are good tr checks and it’s really easy to fit them on any team, blastoise could do this job way better. Its only niche is psychic terrain.

Croven: tier 5, i haven’t really seen this used that much and I agree with SMB’s points. Just move it down

MajorBowman: 3, I think its downfall is being overstated a bit. Psychic terrain is still really useful for a lot of teams and follow me + heal pulse + helping hand is still strong. Definitely a bigger opportunity cost now that bulky togekiss exists again but not bad
Torkoal Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3--enables the powerful Venusaur and Charizard. It also underspeeds melmetal in TR. A solid pick.

talkingtree: 3, both sun and hard TR will almost always have a Torkoal

emforbes: agreed with 3

SMB: 3, fits in 2 strong archetypes like sun and semiroom pretty well

Croven: 3, sun is pretty fire (hahahhahahahaha please laugh) and it fits well in TR too. Overall p solid

MajorBowman: 3, also croven shut up
Ludicolo Tier 3 → Tier 4 → Tier 5
Ezrael: 5-- rain sux, and I’m a rain stan

talkingtree: what Ezrael said

emforbes: also agreed with jon

SMB: 5, rain sobad

Croven: agree with above

MajorBowman: can we just drop it to UR instead? Rain is terrible and ludi has ever only come close to being good on rain
Pelipper Tier 3 → Tier 4 → Tier 5
Ezrael: 5--rain sux

talkingtree: what Ezrael said

emforbes: yeah its awful

SMB: 5, rain sobad

Croven: agree with above

MajorBowman: see ludicolo vote
Gothorita UR → *somewhere*
Ezrael: 5--psychic is a good move and so is the ability to do damage.

talkingtree: 5 for now, could see this fitting tier 4's definition if it proves to be more useful than its evolution on other teams

emforbes: 5, broken stag

SMB: 5 should be fine for this

Croven: 5 is fine

MajorBowman: 5, definitely a step down from gothitelle but still a usable mon
Rhyperior Tier 2 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3--melmetal beats it and melmetal took its spot on teams that want a slow mon.

talkingtree: I think this is still tier 2. Non-CB (or -1) Melmetal can't knock it out and will just activate a WP-boosted High Horsepower that OHKOes it. Being a physical attacker that forces out Incineroar is huge, and Rhyperior's bulk and power especially as a DMax abuser is terrifying.

emforbes: 3, good mon for sure but I don't think it's that hard to deal with anymore.

SMB: 3, sand isn’t that common anymore and this was one of its best checks. Faces competition with new physical attackers in tr teams.

Croven: 3, agree with smb and ezrael

MajorBowman: agree with tree, Rhyperior is still a largely threatening mon in TR with a WP boost and can function okay-ish outside of TR thanks to its impressive bulk. It does face more competition in teambuilding now but that doesn’t make it inherently worse
Ferrothorn Tier 3 → Tier 4 → Tier 5
Ezrael: 5 ferro sucks. It always sucked. It sucks even more now that incin and melmetal are in the format.

talkingtree: 5, this probably should have dropped before home and now it extra needs to drop.

emforbes: 5, terrible mon

Croven: 5, shit blows lmao

MajorBowman: 5, why was this ever so high

SMB: 5, too passive for this meta
Hatterene Tier 3 → Tier 4 → Tier 5
Ezrael: 3. Until shown otherwise, I think hatterene deserves to stay with its Hard TR friends. Gmax Hatterene is strong.

talkingtree: 3, defining Pokemon on hard TR that fits 3's description perfectly.

emforbes: 3, agreed with jon and tree

Croven: 3, this thing is insanely strong lmao keep it here

MajorBowman: 3, still a stupid strong mon and a centerpiece on hard TR

SMB: 3 should be fine for now but I wouldn’t be surprised if this drops to 4 eventually
Hydreigon Tier 3 → Tier 4 → Tier 5
Ezrael: 5--not really a good mon, lots of fighting and fairy types.

talkingtree: 5, almost forgot this was a Pokemon. It still has some viability in its coverage but Hydrei's barely relevant so having it higher than 5 would be misleading. (Adding this after my Week 8 game: okay so it's a little bit better than I thought, but 5 is still where it belongs)

emforbes: 5, I guess fake tears + hydra is mildly threatening but it's still bad

Croven: agree with above

MajorBowman: 5 is fine, still hits pretty strong and has some randomly great matchups but hard to fit on a lot of teams when dragapult is a really good alternative

SMB: tier 5, agree with everyone
Arcanine Tier 1 → lower (I'm not listing all the other tiers here)
Ezrael: 5 -- Dog is gone. Cat is now.

talkingtree: I think Arcanine's speed tier keeps it in 4 for now, once the hype of needing to use Incin again dies down a little it'll be more widely usable. Tman's tier 4 description nails this one to me. (adding this after my Week 8 game: Arcanine's still good; if your team is weak to acid armor melmetal then you can replace Incin with Arc pretty easily and also get the bonus of speed)

emforbes: 5, fast snarl and wisp are actually solid in this meta, but it cannot compete with cat

SMB: nobody is going to use this anymore but fast wow and snarl are still pretty good, I’d say tier 4

Croven: uhh i guess 4 for now, i think i agree with tree and smb

MajorBowman: 4, I by no means think incineroar invalidates arcanine because arcanine can do some things incin can’t, but certainly no longer a mon we’ll be seeing on every team
Togekiss Tier 1 → Tier 2 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 1. Offensive Togekiss was the best set at the end of pre-home, and that set wasn’t nerfed too much with the introduction of incineroar--the best fire type is now neutral to fairy. Offensive Togekiss can also crit through the melmetal with Heat Wave. Defensive togekiss got a few nice options in tailwind and slow mons to click air slash against, but suffers from one of the major threats in the format being melmetal. Fairy types are still good though, and hitting pult SE/being immune to dragon is also valuable.

talkingtree: Absolutely stay 1, I sometimes find it difficult to build without Togekiss tbh

emforbes: ??? no who the fuck nommed this

Croven: yeah lol keep this shit as 1, this thing is amazing

MajorBowman: 1 for sure, togekiss only got better with home imo (see jon’s bit about defensive togekiss)

SMB: it got new support tools with home how can this drop :pikuh: melmetal is on every team but it dies to togekiss offensive set so :shrug:
Charizard Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3, but I’m willing to move up to 2, especially if beat up goes. Zard does a *lot* of damage, and venusaur is a really good support for it. Sun is relatively well positioned in the meta--zard should do well.

talkingtree: 3's good for now, zard is scary

emforbes: 3 assuming the tier definitions change

Croven: 3. Zard is absurd

MajorBowman: 3 is good, zard does the damage

SMB: 3 this thing is a threat
Duraludon Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3. Duraludon makes a bunch of mons you don’t think should go away, go away. Life Orb Duraludon is very powerful

talkingtree: 4. I can see the appeal but in my experience it hasn't been great.

emforbes: 3, agreed with jon

Croven: 3 agree w ezrael

MajorBowman: 4 for now, could see it rising later on but haven’t really seen it pull its weight enough for 3 right now

SMB: tier 5 since it doesn’t fit with the new descriptions of tier 3 and 4 (mainly because this mon is not good)
Dusclops Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3. Dusclops doesn’t die and sets up Trick Room. It also has a ton of support options. Good mon.

talkingtree: 3. I still can't believe that Dusclops is actually considered as being a good mon this gen

emforbes: 3, clops is really good. Pain split is an underrated option imo.

Croven: agree with above

MajorBowman: honestly I would have guessed clops was already in 3, definitely should rise

SMB: 3, agree with everyone
Jellicent Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3. Water types are very strong right now as a response to Melmetal, and Jellicent can set Trick room. Strength sap is also a very good move.

talkingtree: 4, haven't seen anything that proves Jellicent is "generally strong"

emforbes: 4, agreed with tree

Croven: yeah agree with tree

MajorBowman: ^

SMB: ^^
Kommo-o Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 4. Kommo-o sucks. Clang gang 4 lyfe

talkingtree: 3, Iron Defense sets got much better in the new meta (+2 Body Press has a good shot at OHKOing most Melmetal). Still have to watch out for Togekiss, but I think the power of that set + the slight flexibility in coverage or in Clangorous Soul sets puts it in 3.

emforbes: 4 lmao, not a fan at all. Waste of a team slot imo

Croven: 4, agree w emilio and ezrael

MajorBowman: 4 is fine, i like the iron defense body press set a lot but clangorous soul is booty and it gets hard stopped by a couple too many things to be any higher than 4

SMB: tier 4, I haven’t been too impressed by kommo lately, it has some pretty positive mus vs good mons but still it needs a few turns to set up and that’s bad in an offensive meta like this
Lapras Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3. Lapras carries teams and WP + Aveil is a strong combination. Needs support, but really fits the new definition of tier 3.

talkingtree: 3, ^

emforbes: 3, agreed with jon

Croven: agree w above

MajorBowman: ^

Corviknight Tier 3 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4--even though Corv is better into Incineroar than arcanine, Melmetal just takes its spot in the format, and corv is no longer needed as much to combat sand. I could see it rising if melmetal is banned.

talkingtree: 4, if Croven's icon gets to be tier 1 then his spirit animal has to fall to 4

emforbes: 4 agreed with jon

Croven: 4, not good.

MajorBowman: ezrael’s post is good, corv has a hard time finding spots on teams these days and any set other than bulk up has such a hard time finding productive things to do

SMB: same issue as kommo, it needs many turns to set up. Melmetal can check it with thunder punch and it also has a hard time dealing with incineroar. Sun is so popular rn that it feels like deadweight most of the times. I wouldn’t mind dropping this to 5, and I’ve been a huge corvinight believer :(
Dracovish Tier 3 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4--mon sucks, it’s too easy to reduce its damage and/or KO it before it attacks.

talkingtree: 4, though I think this mon has potential to make a bit of a comeback with the new meta

emforbes: 4, its bad

Croven: 4. :( i liked it but its not good

MajorBowman: yeah definitely, only excels in very specific scenarios that are pretty hard to set up properly

SMB: 4, pretty much every team has redirection which leaves dracovish in a pretty bad spot
Dracozolt Tier 3 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4--Dracozolt has a really tough time not maxing, and if it doesn’t max you’re clicking hydro pump every turn. That’s ok for rotom, cause it can click thunderbolt, but for dracozolt you lose the game if you miss.

talkingtree: 4? or whatever ends up being one tier lower than Durant, because I think they're similar as very strong nearly DMax-necessary Hustle attackers with decent Max Move coverage, but Durant has the better speed tier and versatility / ability to break its checks.

emforbes: 4, this one sucks too

Croven: if we puttin dracovish at 4 this thing better drop too lmao (tier 4)

MajorBowman: agree with tree, dracozolt just seems like a worse durant. Would probably even argue for 5 personally

SMB: I haven’t seen this do a thing since like january, tier 4.
Rotom-H Tier 3 → Tier 4
** I'm only including this nomination because it falls in the category of "redoing" tiers 3 and 4; normally, if a Pokemon was re-nommed after a previous nomination failing, I'd leave it off the slate.
Ezrael: 4--”hate me cause you ain’t me”-Incineroar

talkingtree: I voted 4 last time and I stand by that vote, especially with the new tier definitions.

emforbes: 4 with incin existing

Croven: agree w above

MajorBowman: 3 you haters, fires are good and being a fire that beats the other fires is super

SMB: tier 5, no reason to use this over any other fire or electric type. Very limited niche.
Snorlax Tier 2 → Tier 3 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4--mon already sucked, took too much from BD and not healing from berry, and now Incineroar, melmetal, also beat down on it. Can be used in potential cheese strats, so not 5 yet for me.

talkingtree: 4. Lax is pretty meh. It just doesn't take advantage of its turns well enough.

emforbes: 4 agreed with jon

Croven: agree w above

MajorBowman: 4, lax has been super underwhelming for this whole generation and probably shouldn’t have ever been 2

SMB: belly drum is really hard to pull off on this meta and curse is too slow, tier 4
Rotom-C Tier 2 → Tier 3 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4. Grass is a bad offensive typing, and being weak to incineroar doesn’t help rotom’s case.

talkingtree: 3. I think Mowtom's still in a decent spot, but between Exca being less common / Fire pivots being almost guaranteed now / the emergence of sun, it does deserve a drop.

emforbes: 4, bad mon but it still has potential with nasty plot I guess

Croven: agree w emilio and ezrael

MajorBowman: 4, the meta shift after home was certainly not kind to mowtom. Sun being such a popular team comp now is awful for rotom and if every team didn’t have a fire type pivot before then they certainly do now

SMB: tier 3, agree with tree, I don’t see rotom mow in such a bad spot. It’s a pretty decent mon if your team has a bad time dealing with water types (which is really common with the kind of teams everyone is playing (not talking about sun))
Braviary Tier 2 → Tier 3 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4. Wasn’t good in an arcanine format and now Rotom-W and Melmetal are here to make Braviary sad.

talkingtree: 4, Braviary sure has fallen quickly from being almost indisputably the best Pokemon 3.5 months ago.

emforbes: 4, I think it should be falling 5 tho

Croven: 4, wouldnt be opposed to dropping further

MajorBowman: 4, probably the biggest fall from grace in such a short time we’ve ever seen lol

SMB: yeah drop this to 4 or even 5
Sylveon Tier 2 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 4--nails said it all, but I think his post was a little tame on the tiering. Sylveon is not great as he said, but that describes tier 4 to me.

talkingtree: 4, the speed tier is just a bit too awkward in practice to take advantage of what should be decent positives

emforbes: 4, sylv is scary but I'm not convinced it should be 3 yet

Croven: 4, agree w ezrael and emilio

MajorBowman: 2 is definitely too high, hard pick between 3 and 4 because sylveon has been criminally underrated in this format imo but since it hasn’t really shown itself to be a tier 3 mon yet i’ll go with 4

SMB: yeah i have to agree with everyone here, doesn’t do well vs any of the new mons, sun, etc. CM set doesn’t seem too good, same with specs. Tier 4
Durant Tier 5 → Tier 4 → Tier 3
Ezrael: 3. First impression is spooky, and Durant does damage when it maxes.

talkingtree: 3. After playing with / against it a lot more, I'm a full believer in Durant.

emforbes: 3, dangerous mon for sure

Croven: agree with above

MajorBowman: ^

SMB: ig with the new tier descriptions this should be tier 3
Milotic Tier 5 → Tier 4
Ezrael: 4. I’m a milotic hater, but it seems to have a few strong sets right now. Coil hypnosis is good into a dynamax meta.

talkingtree: yeah 4, I like Milotic and Nails put it well.

emforbes: 4, coil hypno is disgusting

Croven: agree w above

MajorBowman: coil still makes me want to violently die but even outside that set i think milo is a tier 4 mon

SMB: tier 5 is fine, pretty much every team can set electric/misty terrain and some of the best dmax mons run electric or fairy type moves
Home DLC mons initial placements:

Venusaur UR → ???
Ezrael: 3--mon does work on sun, sleep powder is busted, and it has good coverage.

talkingtree: 3. The second part of the new Tier 3 descriptions fits Venu to a T.

Croven: 3. Works great on sun and powder is amazing (WHEN IT HITS >:()

MajorBowman: 3, sleep is broken, venusaur has a great speed tier in sun and compliments torkoal well

emforbes: 3, agreed with everyone else

SMB: tier 3, sun is pretty good, same with fast sleep moves
Blastoise UR → ???
Ezrael: 3--follow me + fake out + steel resist? Sign me up, but not all the way to tier 2 because it doesn’t actually do that much offensively.

talkingtree: 4. I think 3 is too high for the little I've seen it do, and without Beat Up it loses a decent chunk of its niche as a redirector

Croven: 4, with beat up gone its still going to be good but idk if its tier 3 worthy

MajorBowman: 3, agree with jon here. Fake out + follow me on the same mon is bonkers and water is a pretty solid defensive typing right now

emforbes: 4, cool support options but I'd like to see games showing its strength before voting to tier 3.

SMB: hmm after beat up ban i don’t see this being higher than tier 4
Terrakion UR → ???
Ezrael: 3--solid fighting/rock stab fits well into this meta, hitting incin and sun mons for damage. Being a rocker is always good.

talkingtree: 2, strong offenses + good STAB coverage + speed tier + passable bulk is always a solid combo

Croven: 2, solid offenses, speed, bulk. Good enough to move to 2

MajorBowman: 3 for now, i don’t know if it will still hold up in a beat up-less meta but if it does 2 could be an ok spot for it in the future

emforbes: 3 without beat up

SMB: tier 3, pretty good speed and offensive typing, I’m pretty sure we’ll find more variety of good sets after beat up ban
Kyurem UR → ???
Ezrael: 5--usable, but I haven’t seen much of it. Wouldn’t be surprised to see it go up or down

talkingtree: 5, what Ezrael said

Croven: 5, agree w ezrael

MajorBowman: abstain, i haven’t seen this used yet at all and even though i think it could make its way to 5 i don’t necessarily want to vote on pure theory

emforbes: agreed with jake

SMB: I’ve only seen this on ladder and it hasn’t really impressed me, but as ezrael said it’s usable. Tier 5.
Keldeo UR → ???
Ezrael: 4--Aura Sphere is powerful and hits melmetal, but playing keldeo into Dragapult and Rotom-Wash and Necrozma can feel bad.

talkingtree: 3, I've been liking Keldeo in practice. CM and Icy Wind sets are both decent to me, and it pretty much got exactly the moves it wanted it previous gens.

Croven: 4 for now, its good but i think ezrael said the bad matchups that make it a bit iffy for now.

MajorBowman: 3, has some great power and passable bulk but poor matchups against common mons keep it from moving any higher and is a pretty big casualty of the lower BP of max knuckle

emforbes: 4, strong in a non tapu meta and I could see it going further.

SMB: Tier 4, agree with ezrael, could see this rising in the future
Incineroar UR → ???
Ezrael: 1--meow

talkingtree: easiest 1 of my life

Croven: mash that mfn tier 1 button

MajorBowman: !!!1!

emforbes: 1

SMB: one
Necrozma UR → ???
Ezrael: 2--good rocker, special ground coverage is phenomenal, sets TR, and can run WP. Very powerful mon and I expect to see it on many teams

talkingtree: 2, I was a little meh on Necrozma when it dropped but everything I've seen since then has impressed.

Croven: 2, i love this thing. Ezrael basically said it, its just versatile and good at whatever it chooses to do

MajorBowman: 2, big fan of necrozma. Good TR setter on semiroom, can run fast sets as well, good rocker, pretty good synergy with prism armor + WP

emforbes: 2, agreed with everyone

SMB: tier 2, probably the best offensive tr setter, learns rocks, good wp user, good coverage...
Zeraora UR → ???
Ezrael: 4--Fast fake out/snarl/electric coverage is cool, and also Zeraora can run a somewhat untested offensive set which can outspeed dragapult and has a solid chance to OHKO. That’s a niche, but not that big of one.

talkingtree: 4. If Zeraora's Speed stat was 2 points lower it would be UR, but it's a solid pivot and if you're going to be a fast pivot, outspeeding Dragapult is huge.

Croven: 4. Agree w ezrael and tree

MajorBowman: 4, ezrael and tree said it well

emforbes: 4, also agreed with jon and tree

SMB: 4, agree with everyone, hope to see offensive sets being more relevant
Melmetal UR → ???
Ezrael: 1--BONK

talkingtree: 1, second easiest 1 of my life

Croven: mash that mfn tier 1 button

MajorBowman: 1 (insert snapchat bonk filter here

emforbes: 1 lol

SMB: melmetal > incineroar = 1
Ninetales-A UR → ???
Ezrael: 5--Veils are good, Freeze Dry is good. I think it could see play.

talkingtree: abstain, haven't seen / wanted to use this at all.

Croven: abstain lol

MajorBowman: abstain af

emforbes: abstain

SMB: abstain, I haven’t used it myself or see any games with it

:hitmontop: UR → Tier 4
:excadrill: Tier 1 → Tier 2
:indeedee-f: Tier 2 → Tier 4
:torkoal: Tier 4 → Tier 3
:ludicolo: Tier 3 → Tier 5
:pelipper: Tier 3 → Tier 5
:gothorita: UR → Tier 5
:rhyperior: Tier 2 → Tier 3
:ferrothorn: Tier 3 → Tier 5
:hydreigon: Tier 3 → Tier 5
:arcanine: Tier 1 → Tier 4
:charizard: Tier 4 → Tier 3
:dusclops: Tier 4 → Tier 3
:lapras: Tier 4 → Tier 3
:corviknight: Tier 3 → Tier 4
:dracovish: Tier 3 → Tier 4
:dracozolt: Tier 3 → Tier 4
:rotom-heat: Tier 3 → Tier 4
:snorlax: Tier 2 → Tier 4
:rotom-mow: Tier 2 → Tier 4
:braviary: Tier 2 → Tier 4
:sylveon: Tier 2 → Tier 4
:durant: Tier 5 → Tier 3
:milotic: Tier 5 → Tier 4

:venusaur: → Tier 3
:blastoise: → Tier 4
:terrakion: → Tier 3
:kyurem: → Tier 5
:keldeo: → Tier 4
:incineroar: → Tier 1
:necrozma: → Tier 2
:zeraora: → Tier 4
:melmetal: → Tier 1


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Doubles Captain
Gyarados Tier 3 → Tier 5

If you want an Intimidator, there's Incineroar. If you want a Water-type support / utility mon, there's Blastoise. If you want a Dragon Dance user, there's Dragapult. Most of the roles that Gyarados can fill are pretty much filled by other Pokemon that can do its job better. Being an Intimidate Pokemon that resists Steel and Fighting would be a great niche for checking Melmetal..... except many run Thunder Punch. I can see why someone might want to use Gyarados on a team, but it's definitely not Tier 3 anymore.

Grimmsnarl Tier 3 → Tier 4

Fake Out support is much easier to come by thanks to Incin, Screens support doesn't seem to matter as much anymore, and Grimmsnarl in general just has a tough time fitting on teams. The new description of Tier 4, specifically "Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers" fits Grimmsnarl perfectly to me.


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Doubles Captain
Quick interjection (and triple post because I can do what I want) to say that we went ahead and did a low-tier sweep. We left off the Pokemon that we had just placed as new additions from the Home metagame; Blastoise, Keldeo, Kyurem, and Zeraora. The remaining votes are below:

Braviary Tier 4 → Tier 5
Conkeldurr Tier 5 → Tier 4
Drednaw Tier 5 → UR
Drifblim Tier 5 → UR
Kommo-o Tier 4 → Tier 5
Snorlax Tier 4 → Tier 5
Cramorant -> Tier 5

As far as special tanks go, Cramorant is actually pretty effective if you're looking for something a bit more off-beat. Compared to its main competition in Pelipper, it has better special defense, better speed, and better base HP. And while Cramorant's Gulp Missile may seem a bit gimmicky, if you can harness it right you can make it pretty darn effective as a punishment, especially if you're running Rocky Helmet. See, if Cramorant in Gulping/Gorging forme is hit with a physical contact move, you not only deal 1/4 from Gulp Missile, but an additional 1/6 from the Helmet, meaning you're potentially hitting back for 2/5 HP combined, plus either -1 Defense or paralysis depending on what's in his mouth. If you run an Ally Switch Pokemon like Prankster Meowstic-M it can lead to some dirty moves.

Drednaw -> Tier 5

I know people have been iffy on the turtle, but as far as I'm concerned y'all are doing him dirty. G-Max Drednaw's potential as a sweeper is absolutely terrifying...if you have the right companion. This is mostly because I've been running Swift Swim on him and his power is HUGE if you can set it on turn one. Obviously, there's Pelipper for that, but I found Prankster Meowstic-M also works, because he can learn Rain Dance. So on turn 1 you can set rain, then G-Max, and G-Max Stonesturge will obliterate just about anything non-tanky, no Swords Dance needed. It can be a gamble, using D-Max so early, but the payoffs can be wild.

Meowstic-M -> Tier 5

If you hadn't noticed, I've been going wild over Prankster Meowstic-M. He's probably one of the better underrated Prankster supports. In addition to having a lot of the Prankster arsenal like Screens, Thunder Wave, and Fake Out, I've been using him as an ersatz rain setter because he has the ability to learn Rain Dance (go figure) and he has access to Ally Switch, meaning he can bail out his partner out of a big hit...or if you're like me and running Cramorant, you can make your opponent pay dearly for his mistake. A lack of Bug-Types means he has fewer threats compared to, say, Whismicott, and at base 140 Speed he outruns Grimmsnarl and Liepard. Finally, Psychic will 2HKO Kommo-O or other Fighting-Types.

cringe sun gang 3 -> 2

charizard is absolutely fucking bonkers with sun active. you ohko basically everything but incineroar. it can boost its speed. there is nothing more to be said about charizard.

venusaur is the newest addition to the core and gives it the ability to check threats faster than charizard, which is extremely valuable when charizard fucking obliterates everything slower than it. extra grass coverage if charizard dies early is also a huge plus.
- sash is the best set by far because venusaur's most important function is being insurance against random stuff that you can't take care of, and getting predicted / outpositioned and losing that chance is often the same as losing the game.

what makes this core so, so threatening is that torkoal is a "real pokemon" and often the centerpiece of a trick room mode. you don't have a dead slot with a rain setter like you often did with politoed or pelipper cores, and torkoal's low speed stat adds an entirely new dimension that 1. allows weather to check trick room like never before 2. gives you a ton of flexibility on how you build the core. this ranges from adding togekiss/hitmontop/dragapult like Ezrael has, using torkoal as a trick toom check and an occasional threat, to a standard trick toom mode with gothitelle and melmetal like I've seen from Qwello Lee and Stratos that lets you crush teams with fast eruptions.

this core has issues, like consistently wearing down incineroar and dragapult, but when you get the correct matchup it should just be easy enough to click gmax wildfire 3 times & sleep anything faster than the zard. all three of these pokemon are a clear cut above tier 3 (and are probably better than the tier 2 sand residents) and deserve to move up.
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Formerly The Idiot Ninja
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Is it unreasonable to suggest Zard all the way to 1? I feel like I don't really need to explain what it does, everyone knows and most people want it suspected, it feels dominant enough for T1 to me. The other parts of the cringe sun gang are strong in their own right (I got reqs running zardless sun and tork/venu were still Quite Good by themselves for reasons qsns outlined very well in his post) but with Zard I really just feel like he's too much. I look at the definition of T1 and I think that Zard is "quite powerful" and "hard to go wrong with", and I also look at the stuff in T2 and I feel like Zard's comfortably superior.
Mew Tier 3 > 2

Mew is easily the best (or the most hated) Imprison users out in conjunction with Transform to transform into one of its foes after using it, forcing them to switch out or use Struggle as all their moves have been sealed, resulting in the opponent having to prioritize beating the transformed Mew. Imprison Mew also serves as a good check to Trick Room teams as Hatterene reflects Taunt and Roar (seriously why was it a good idea to have a viable magic bounce tr setter again?).

Additionally, Pokemon Home brings Fake Out and Tailwind back for Mew, giving it more utility options choose from. Admittedly, Tailwind doesn't seem too useful right now, but it can come in handy if a team needs it.
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:weezing-galar: → Tier 4
I got reqs in the suspect exclusively using Weezing, and from my experience it's an incredibly fun mon to use and actually pretty decent too. Its combination with Terrakion is the prime reason to use it -- screwing over Sun so completely is enormously helpful in this metagame, and you can block Intimidate too. The name of the game is disruption -- Toxic Spikes are surprisingly helpful in a large number of matchups, Will-O-Wisp is great for neutering Pult / Melmetal, and Strange Steam has a decent chance to confuse. A variety of popular abilities are so useful to remove: Clear Body, Levitate, Intimidate, Pixilate, Shadow Tag, Drought/Chlorophyll, Sand Stream/Sand Rush, etc. I also enjoyed using it in conjunction with EBelt Sub Kyurem, since you could Earth Power Rotom-W and take out Melmetal for Weezing, but that version of the team wasn't quite good enough to finish out my run. Try it out, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

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