Resource SS Doubles OU Viability Rankings (updated 10/14 on post #134)

[talkingtree]

The DMax ban has shaken everything up -- even our rankings council! Croven has decided to step down, but the remaining 5 of us redid the whole of the current VR, adding in rows for the above nominations to ranked and a couple others we thought might deserve a ranking now. As is standard, the voting is below with a summary of the changes at the bottom of this post.

EDIT: Also, we're happy to announce we're exchanging Croven for his wife qsns!

voting

Changes:
Tier 4 → Tier 3
UR → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 4 → UR
Tier 1 → Tier 2
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 3 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 3 → UR
Tier 3 → Tier 5
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 5 → Tier 3
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 3 → UR
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 5 → Tier 4
UR → Tier 4
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 1 → Tier 2
Tier 2 → Tier 3
UR → Tier 5
Tier 1 → Tier 3
Tier 4 → Tier 3

 

[marilli]

Unfortunately, simply downloading the replays instead of uploading it results in a lot of hassle. For next time, you will have to click "Upload and share replay" instead of "Download replay." For now you could share them on other file-sharing services such as DropBox, though I'm sure it's not such a groundbreakingly urgent replay that you need to share with the rest of the world despite all the inconveniences it will cause.

As for the VR, I would assume the big shifts with Dynamax banned takes priority over trying to argue over which Pokemon gets placed in the lowest tier, though I don't have the inner workings of the VR council or anything. Please be patient.

 

[talkingtree]

I had already made the spreadsheet for voting on retiering when you posted the nomination Commander Beta, and then I forgot to add Tsareena in while we were voting. It'll be included on the next slate; I have not forgotten it!

 

[kooflah]

WHat about RUnerigus, it is a great dual hazard setter then suicide attacker

Runerigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Wandering Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw

 

[Commander Beta]

UR > 4, maybe 3.
While not the most popular tr setter, being usally looked down upon in comparison to the meta defining Gothitelle and Necrozma, Chandelure has a varied set of traits to set itself appart from the competition.

When compared to goth as a tr setter and anti-tr imprisioner, she is less defensively capable than her, however she does have a great advantage in it's ghost typing, allowing Chandelure to ignore fake out. And while flash fire can't hold up to the insane shadow tag, said ability does allow it to safely switch in into common sun teams, while picking up a boost, more on that later. Despite Chandelure's frailty, a focus sash+fake out can easily shore up it's defences unless it faces off against sand, it's hardest matchup, in which case she'll have a 30% flinch chance from rock slide, or die after setting up trick room due to sand depending on the move of choice.

Now onto the interesting part, offense, which is chandelure's specialty. Her special attack is so absurdly high that only 4 non-mega, non-restricted pokemon ever surpased her, none of which are in Sw/Sh(Ash-Greninja doesn't count because it is a transformation). Again, Necrozma is more bulky, but chandelure's attacks in or against tr will deal heavy damage or even 0HKO meaning, after the field is right, it won't matter anymore, especially since almost all priority in the tier is either normal or fighting. Due to STAB boost, it's heat waves are only slightly less powerful than that of +2 (weakness policy) Necrozma, and puts him to shame should flash fire have activated, plus, she packs a very powerful shadow ball to pound all tr users should she be in anti-tr duty.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1106633383

 

[Amaranth]

a few noms

T3 -> T2

With the DMax ban Sun certainly slowed down but it certainly hasn't stopped and big Venu is showing up even without a Drought buddy thanks to the immense utility Sleep Powder provides from a decent speed tier, allowing it to help substantially in match ups such as Trick Room and Sun (and both combined, which is not a rare sight). Venusaur also provides a nice bit of utility with the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, which appear to be getting more common lately. A cut above most of T3 in the current meta imo.

T2 -> T1

Another one that appeared to be on the downfall since the DMax ban but hasn't actually gotten that much worse - it's still the best Fairy and its access to Follow Me and Tailwind has hardly gotten less valuable. It racked up nearly 50% usage in the first week of DPL and he's probably just here to stay as the uncontested best Fairy in the tier with other options like Sylveon and Whimsicott being a serious distance away. I respect feeling like it's not quite on the same level as Incin/Goth/Melly but that's because these three are fucking broken, not because Togekiss doesn't outclass the rest of T2

T3 -> T2

Absolutely epic support mon. Fake Out, Pollen Puff, Tailwind, Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rocks, Transform+Imprison, and this stuff is just scratching the surface of things Mew can pull successfully. Honestly even T1 worthy for my money, his support movepool is unrivaled, but he's not got the usage to justify T1 yet - suffers a bit from being redundant with Gothitelle

T3 -> T4

I don't think I've seen him in more than a couple serious games. It might have potential though. Struggles against Pult and against all Fairies which are still very widespread, with support Iron Defense + Body Press is alright but I've never really seen this do anything to justify a T3 placement yet

T3 -> T4

Still too passive and not useful enough with only Tailwind in his support kit. A fat 0 uses in Week 1 of DPL and I don't expect that number to rise much, a mon with no offensive pressure and low utility is always gonna struggle. Maybe has a niche in set up + Power Trip builds but yea, not T3 worthy.

 

[Nails]

Mew to 1
Blastoise to 2
Milotic to 2
Kyurem to 3
Clefairy to 4
Arcanine to 5
Celebi to 5
Hatterene to 5
Rhyperior to 5

Mew

It's the fastest good tailwind setter, the only Fake Out + Tailwind in a format where both moves are really strong, Pollen Puff is incredible, and it has 38 different options (SR, TSpikes, Transform, U-Turn, Taunt, Icy Wind, Spikes, Veil, Encore, Fake Tears, Trick Room, etc) that are all really good and can swing a game but simultaneously don't feel missed when you're using something else because it has a complete moveset with 3 moves. A legitimate tier 1 support mon.

Blastoise

It's the only redirection mon that doesn't have to run away scared when big bad Melmetal looks at it. Throw on Fake Out access (faster than Incineroar) in a Fake Out metagame, how nicely it plays with NP Kiss, and water being a generally strong typing in DOU right now and it occupies an important enough position in the meta to warrant tier 2.

Milotic

Sleep moves are oppressive because the game wanted terrain setting with your dynamax to be a solid chunk of your counterplay vs sleep, and Milotic is one of the more reliable sleep users. Milotic also lines up well into an Incineroar metagame. It has games where it doesn't do that much but it steamrolls games sometimes, and the degree to which it highrolls makes its average output tier 2.

Kyurem

There are a bunch of good water types that it hits with Freeze-Dry and ice is a great offensive typing. AV eats hits and it can chunk stuff with Glaciate. It has a bunch of stats. It's not incredible but it's only one step behind AV cube from SM DOU. It's better than Sylveon.

Clefairy

Boosting is good and Clefairy enables those strategies really well. It has the same issues and strengths it always had but they line up pretty well into this format.

Arcanine

It has a solid speed tier and good enough typing but then capitalizes on those strengths by looking at the opposing mons and doing nothing. The two special attackers in tier 1 (Togekiss, Dragapult) don't care much about getting Snarled. It doesn't do anything to Incineroar. Choice Band is a meme. If someone wants to show that Teleport is the thing it needed all this time then go ahead, it can be Incineroar with slower U-turn and no Fake Out or Dark Typing or extra effect on its switching move. It just sucks. I nommed it to UR last time but I came to the realization that all of the mons in 5 suck and it fits right in. Also the mons in 4 suck, but Arcanine sucks more than them.

Celebi

It has SR and a bunch of base stats and there are no other grass types in the format. It resists Ground. It can Nasty Plot or set TR. It gets Pollen Puff. It's better than Oranguru and Bronzong. Tier 5 is a super low bar even if it sucks.

Hatterene

It really really liked being able to Dynamax. It didn't always get the kills before but without GMax Smite to steal games it's been exposed. Also, Trick Room sucks.

Rhyperior

Trick Room sucks and it was carried by Dynamax. It wants Lightning Rod and Solid Rock and cannot run both.

 

[Ezrael]

Pult --> 1
Pult is an almost ubiquitous sight on DOU teams right now. It has the combined benefits of being a) fake out immune b) has access to a nuke and c) is v. fast. Dragapult almost always trades at least 1 for 1 and you can always choose its trades. Sometimes it even trades better. It's also really favorable against mew and goth, both of which are important threats.
necrozma --> 3
Necrozma has the issue in this metagame of being the third best psychic type. Mew and Gothitelle both get Fake Out and TR, and Mew has every hazard. Necrozma has the niche of doing the most damage, but that tends to be less important.
dusclops --> 4
(main niche is eviolite, activating WP and setting up TR while tanking max moves. Knock off, max ban and max ban, and TR weaker)
Zeraora --> 2
Zeraora is the fastest pokemon in the metagame, which enables it to actually contest Pult. It can run both offensive and Support sets with equal efficacy, and it can be hard to tell which set it is until it attacks. It can have fake out, eweb, snarl, knock off, close combat, and solid electric stab which is hard to come by.
hydreigon --> 4
Hydreigon has tailwind, and has solid offensive nuking potential. Pretty strong as a support/nuker, and has a solid speed tier.
snorlax --> UR
Lol TRASH
I agree with Tinman and nails' posts

 

[xzern]

Ninetales - UR -> 3/4
I havent seen any discussion about kanto ninetales in this thread. Ninetales is a decent alternative to torkoal that offers good utility with encore, disable, will o wisp, or hypnosis, coupled with a good speed. Ninetales has the same base special attack as torkoal so you arent really missing out on much offensive pressure (which i know is an odd thing to say about ninetales) except for eruption, which is only decent if you are running trick room, and you can always run overheat or fire blast.

Tsareena - UR -> 4
This mon has a respectable track record so far if i am not mistaken. I have not used it personally but it seems like a good niche pick when in need of a grass type switch in. It is also the only "viable" offensive grass type that is not dependent on weather.

Bronzong & Jellicent - 5 -> UR
Tier 5 is quite big for a group of mons that nobody uses. On full tr, bronzong is redundant with melmetal and is outclassed by goth. Jellicent has more weaknesses than dusclops with little advantage, the advantage being a better matchup against melmetal. Like jellicent, dusclops threatens melmetal with a burn. Unlike jellicent, dusclops outspeeds melmetal under trick room. It is also worth noting that some melmetal sets carry thunder punch. full tr isnt that good anyway.

Hitmontop - 5 -> UR
There is little reason to use hitmontop over scrafty, or more obviously, incineroar. It offers zero offensive pressure and no special utility. Scrafty's dark typing is a lot more useful, even if they are both worse than incineroar.

 

[talkingtree]

The council's still voting on the current slate, but in the meantime we've finished with another low-tier sweep to make up for the fact that they were a bit bloated with mons we largely agreed were irrelevant. The Pokemon from Tiers 4 + 5 that were nominated above aren't in this sweep; I've left those votes in the full slate so that the nominations can get written responses. Here's the voting slate, with changes noted at the bottom of the post:

Changes:
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → UR
Tier 5 → UR

 

[talkingtree]

Double-posting to provide the latest slate! Sadly, I also must announce that emforbes has decided to step down from VR council Thanks for all the insight you've provided over the many months. We'll be moving forward with 5 members for now, but if and when we decide to add another member I'll announce it with the first vote they participate in.

Tsareena UR → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: 4. Blocking fake out is a really good niche and tsareena gets solid support moves to go with its decent type and coverage. HH, U-turn, Knock, HJK, Power Whip and Rapid Spin are all good options, especially in a meta with relatively high tspikes usage. Qsns should choose a better user name.

Qsns: 4. Fake Out protection in a metagame so dominated by it is invaluable for a lot of offense teams that can’t afford to lose a turn to Incineroar.

SMB: Either tier 4 or 5 is fine for me. I’d like to see how it performs on more than only 1 team, definitely has potential to be good enough for 4.

talkingtree: Definitely deserves a rank, I'll say 4 even if I'm not positive it'll stay there. Rain, Sun, and HO are all obvious candidates for appreciating Tsareena, but honestly it's fairly flexible. A lot of the value it provides isn't even from its offensive or defensive contributions but just its ability to dissuade Fake Out spam. With Incin, Goth, Zeraora, and Blastoise all being popular and Tsareena having a decent enough matchup against all four (HJK, U-turn, Electric resistance, Power Whip), it's one of those mons that will almost always have a positive impact.

Emforbes: 4, tsareena looked very strong in dpl this week and I agree w/previous points.

MajorBowman: 5 for now, has potential for more later on but 4 is jumping the gun a bit

Chandelure UR → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: no.

Qsns: no

SMB: sobad

talkingtree: I tried to make trickscarf chandelure work for my DPL game this week and it just…. didn't. Chandelure is theoretically usable and honestly not *that* bad, but it doesn't deserve a place on the VR.

Emforbes: n

MajorBowman: UR

Venusaur Tier 3 → Tier 2

votes

Ezrael: busted venu. If you don’t dodge, you just lose. Even if you dodge, you sometimes just lose. Has a good speed tier/ability. 2.

Qsns: 2. What Ezrael said but also even without investment it’s quite bulky and it’s super hard to position around something that won’t die even after its Focus Sash is rendered useless.

SMB: Tier 2 for sure, can perform outside of sun teams and it kind of restricts teambuilding a bit since you should always have solid answers to sleep powder.

talkingtree: 2, singlehandedly brought Safety Goggles back into the meta.

Emforbes: Free tier 2, sleep is ridiculously broken in this meta.

MajorBowman: Definitely, super annoying pokemon to face and sleep is stupid as hell

Togekiss Tier 2 → Tier 1

votes

Ezrael: what if you decided to crit all your moves and ohko everything in the format? You would probably be a good pokemon. Also a tier 1 support mon. Broken.

Qsns: 1. Incredible offensive threat and incredible defensive threat. Nasty Plot shreds balance and defensive sets have a wealth of powerful support moves backed by great bulk.

SMB: top tier 2 mon but not even close to the mons we have on tier 1, I’m not sold on scope lens sets either.

talkingtree: I'm actually with SMB on this one, NP Scope Lens is super scary but can be difficult to get into the right position and defensive sets are hurt by surging Zeraora/Excadrill. I think Togekiss is pretty clearly the best mon in 2 (maybe shared with Mew if that stays in 2), but it hasn't proven to be 1 yet for me.

Emforbes: 1, this mon still defies the logic of pokemon even without max, offensive set is incredibly busted.

MajorBowman: 2, I’m with talkingtree and SMB on this one. I think my opinion of NP Scope Lens is a bit higher than theirs but otherwise I agree that it just doesn’t sit at the same level as the current tier 1 mons right now

Mew Tier 3 → Tier 2 → Tier 1

votes

Ezrael: 1, Mew is phenomenal. Pollen Puff offers so much role compression in its ability to do chip damage while also acting as heal pulse. Combined with being one of the better TW setters, access to every hazard, and a number of other viable moves, I think this mon is T1. (P.S., tspikes can solo win vs some balance teams, and has led me to run rapid spin and/or poison types on many teams I build)

Qsns: 1. Fake Out, Tailwind and Pollen Puff are all amazing moves, especially when put on a fast mon. Great team support that can be hard to take out on its own.

SMB: tier 2, faces competition with 2 better psychic types but it can perform really well on faster teams.

talkingtree: 2 for now, Pollen Puff alone makes this a great mon. Read the noms for more reasons why Mew is good. However, it does face some competition and a lot of difficulty fitting every move it wants onto the set.

Emforbes: 1, I agree with everything jon said.

MajorBowman: 2, I agree with all the positive arguments made for mew but I don’t think they necessarily bump it to 1 yet. It has massive 4mss and often can’t do everything you want “the ultimate role compression mon” to do.

Kommo-o Tier 3 → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: Kommo-o is bad into a togekiss/pult meta. 4

Qsns: ^

SMB: yeah drop this, definitely really struggles with togekiss, psychic types and dragapult on every team

talkingtree: When every game seemed to end in melmetal vs melmetal endgames I was very much on the Iron Defense Kommo-o hype train but it's pretty dependent on teammates in order to actually do work.

Emforbes: yeah it sucks

MajorBowman: 3, clangorous soul is underrated and the ID/BP set is still pretty strong. It’s been a togekiss dragapult meta since day 1, that much really hasn’t changed.

Corviknight Tier 3 → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: Corviknight doesn’t really do much in the meta. Everything it does (tailwind, bulk up/iron defense, taunt) can be done better by other mons. Corv offers solid role compression, but isn’t that good at the roles it compresses. 4

Qsns: 4. If you’re prepared for AA Melmetal, you’re prepared for the boosting Corviknights, except these don’t threaten Double Iron Bash. The other sets are pretty bad.

SMB: tier 3, taunt iron defense is probably its only viable set but it’s really good. You should always have solid answers to beat corvinight when building a team, definitely not a tier 4 threat.

talkingtree: 3, what SMB said.

Emforbes: 4, not very impressive and I agree with jon and qsns.

MajorBowman: Agree with qsns, the reign of melmetal means that most teams are going to be prepared for corviknight by proxy and I think mel just does this job way better

Blastoise Tier 3 → Tier 2

votes

Ezrael: 3. This mon is very strong in its own right and I could see it moving up to 2. However, I don’t think that there are enough mons that take advantage of redirection right now for this to be tier 2. Togekiss does appreciate its support, but not enough else does.

Qsns: 2. Follow Me user that lines up well into Melmetal and Excadrill makes it a pain to get through for a lot of teams prepared for Togekiss, and Fake Out is :)

SMB: huh tier 3 is fine, it’s good at what it does and ofc being a steel resist is excellent but that’s it

talkingtree: 3, what SMB said. Can kind of be a do-nothing mon if its ally isn't putting on insane amounts of pressure.

Emforbes: also 3, obviously solid but I don’t think it should be rising to 2.

MajorBowman: 2, fake out + follow me on the same pokemon is insane and blastoise is bulky enough to make great use of it. Coincidentally good against some of the top mons and can spread status somewhat consistently with scald/toxic on its off turns

Milotic Tier 3 → Tier 2

votes

Ezrael: 2. Milotic is dumb as hell and can really define games. It creates severe teambuilding and play restrictions.

Qsns: 2. It’s stupid and steals a lot of games. Requires a lot of work in the teambuilder to properly check and even then you need to be in a correct position to not get slept.

SMB: I’m not sure on this one. As venu it restricts teambuilding a bit and it’s hard to find answers or a proper gameplan sometimes. I’m fine with keeping it at 3 or a rise but i’m leaning towards to keep in 3. Free sleep clause btw.

talkingtree. 2, Milotic is super frustrating to deal with for so many teams right now.

Emforbes: 2, sleep is silly on a competitive mon w/amazing bulk.

MajorBowman: 2, see other votes

Kyurem Tier 4 → Tier 3

votes

Ezrael: 3. It’s got tier 3 stats/coverage.

Qsns: 3. A lot of stats with good coverage sums it up pretty well.

talkingtree: 3, love Kyurem. Read the nom.

Emforbes: yeah 3

SMB: tier 4, I haven’t been impressed at all by kyurem, although it might have potential

MajorBowman: abstain, haven’t seen this enough to make an informed vote

Clefairy Tier 5 → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: 5, clefairy has a lot of competition from blastoise and togekiss.

Qsns: Abstain.

talkingtree: abstain. Haven't used or honestly wanted to use Clefairy.

Emforbes: also abstaining, never really seen the mon used.

SMB: tier 5 is fine

MajorBowman: 5 but really UR

Arcanine Tier 4 → Tier 5

votes

Ezrael: 5. Being faster than Mold Breaker Excadrill is technically a niche. Would not be opposed to unranking this though.

Qsns: UR. I will never consider this on a serious team after the Dynamax ban because losing Fake Out over Incineroar is that crippling.

talkingtree: 5. Having the ability to take on ID Corv / AA Melly without getting Body Pressed is a decent enough niche over Incin to stay ranked imo.

Emforbes: 5, incin is way better unless used with tar but fast safeguard, snarl, and wisp are good.

SMB: 4, cool fire type intimidate option for people who don’t like to stack 3+ fighting type weaknesses on their teams.

MajorBowman: 5, tree and emforbes cover my thoughts well

Celebi UR → Tier 5

votes

Ezrael: Tier 5 is full of trash, but it shouldn’t be. Celebi is pretty strictly outclassed by Mew, and is worse than Necrozma and Gothitelle. UR

Qsns: UR, it did nothing that Mew couldn’t do except take 40% more from an Incineroar U-turn. Can we raise our standards for what gets on the VR please

talkingtree: abstain. I think with doing the low-tier sweep the standards for Tier 5 will be too high for Celebi to be there but it's kind of just too unexplored to know for sure.

Emforbes: abstain

SMB: UR

MajorBowman: UR

Hatterene Tier 4 → Tier 5

votes

Ezrael: 5. Nails said it well.

Qsns: 5, full trick room is garbage

talkingtree: I think this is still 4, if a team doesn't have Melmetal then their TR answers are often blocked by Magic Bounce anyway. Still a powerful attacker that has decent enough bulk.

Emforbes: yeah 5.

SMB: only sees usage on full tr and it’s a pretty dead archetype rn, 5

MajorBowman: RIP fullroom, 5

Rhyperior Tier 4 → Tier 5

votes

Ezrael: my nom

Qsns: 5, full trick room is garbage

talkingtree: 5, what Ezrael said in the nom. The only point I'd push back on is the one about Lightningrod -- Zeraora's the only Electric you would really want to redirect because Washtom bops Rhyperior easily, and there aren't that many Electric-weak mons that would need Lightningrod support.

Emforbes: also 5

SMB: 5

MajorBowman: RIP fullroom, 5

Dragapult Tier 2 → Tier 1

votes

Ezrael: my nom

Qsns: 1. The scariest mon in the end game and very hard to stop it from doing what it wants due to its Fake Out immunity and blazing speed. Rarely takes over the game but almost always achieves its goal, making it super splashable.

talkingtree: 1, what qsns said.

Emforbes: 1

SMB: 1, it’s still a great mon even without dmax

MajorBowman: Honestly didn’t even realize this wasn’t 1, absolutely should be. qsns said it very well

Necrozma Tier 2 → Tier 3

votes

Ezrael: my nom

Qsns: 3. Dynamax ban really sucked for it as a standalone offensive threat. It can still click buttons and kill weakened / frail stuff but its flaws such as a lack of meaningful resistances and its inability to threaten meaningful OHKOs are showing much more in this metagame.

talkingtree: 3, what qsns said.

Emforbes: 3, agreed.

SMB: 2, necrozma is the best offensive tr setter and it’s easy to fit on teams.

MajorBowman: 3, the best use of necro I’ve seen since max ban is on smashpass which is lol

Dusclops Tier 3 → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: my nom

Qsns: 4, full trick room is garbage

talkingtree: 4, too passive when it's not able to enable partners in the same way it did during Max meta.

Emforbes: agreed w/the nom reasoning.

SMB: tier 4 is fine, I wouldn’t mind dropping this to 5 tbh since wp and full tr almost see no usage

MajorBowman: If we’re dropping hatterene and rhyperior to 5 this should also go to 5, 4 for now I suppose

Zeraora Tier 3 → Tier 2

votes

Ezrael: My nom

Qsns: 2. Super strong speed tier, Fake Out, and coverage that threatens Pult, Kiss, and Milotic make slapping this onto balance teams quite easy.

talkingtree: 2, I keep putting Zeraora onto all my teams and I don't know how to stop.

Emforbes: 2, again agreed with reasoning.

SMB: 2, agree with everyone

MajorBowman: 2, agree with the above

Hydreigon Tier 5 → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: My nom

Qsns: Abstain.

talkingtree: 4, love Hydrei.

Emforbes: I don’t really know how to feel, abstain.

SMB: It has some glaring flaws but ig the meta is more favourable for it now, wouldn’t mind a rise.

MajorBowman: Abstain, another mon I’ve seen used no more than once

Snorlax Tier 5 → UR

votes

Ezrael: lol, trash.

Qsns: UR trash

talkingtree: UR, no point in using this mon ever.

Emforbes: UR

SMB: I think lax can still work but requires a ton of support, probably not good enough to keep on the VR until someone proves otherwise.

MajorBowman: UR, way too hard to get it going these days

Ninetales UR → Tier 4

votes

talkingtree: I think 4's a little high but qsns/Ezrael/Nails showed during DPL Week 2 that Ninetales is definitely usable. I think qsns's version with Eject Pack Overheat is the best I've seen, because Ninetales doesn't really want to be on the field a lot of the time. Tier 5 imo.

Qsns: 4. umbry gets credit for epic eject pack stuff. I think Ninetales is not that significantly worse than Torkoal and saying that Ninetales doesn’t want to be on the field is a little unfair considering its Heat Waves really do sting. A legitimate option for sun teams without a Trick Room mode.

SMB: tier 5, sun is busted but this mon is really weak. It also has some cool support tools and eject pack was a 300 iq move. Fine addition for sun teams w/o a tr mode.

Ezrael: 4. I think that sun without a TR option is far better than sun with a TR option. TR is not particularly good right now, if you see the way the rest of the votes have gone, and I think ninetales is a better enabler of fast sun than torkoal.

Emforbes: abstain

MajorBowman: 5 for now, I’m not convinced ninetales is a better sun setter than torkoal yet but it’s been proving itself to be at least good so I’d call it worthy of ranking

Bronzong Tier 5 → UR

votes

Ezrael: UR

Qsns: UR trash

talkingtree: UR, doesn't really do anything.

SMB: UR, not worth running this on any team

Emforbes: UR lol

MajorBowman: UR

Jellicent Tier 5 → UR

votes

Ezrael: I wish this wasn’t UR. However, it’s outclassed by Blastoise, Milotic, Rotom-w, Primarina, and other TR setters.

Qsns: UR. this mon is OK I swear but also has not seen any literally usage to justify me saying that.

talkingtree: UR, what qsns said. I do want to push back on the idea that this is because fullroom is in a rut though -- I think Jellicent's niche has more to do with it being extremely annoying with Strength Sap + general bulk than being a fullroom setter. Unfortunately it doesn't have the usage or enough of a niche over something like Milotic to be on the VR.

SMB: UR, agree with talkingtree

Emforbes: agreed w/everyone, UR

MajorBowman: Agreed that this doesn’t really have anything to do with fullroom but definitely still UR

Hitmontop Tier 5 → UR

votes

Qsns: UR, as someone who used top 3 weeks in a row in SPL this mon is absolutely terrible if you’re not self activating policies

talkingtree: UR, the only "niche" is Fake Out + Wide Guard + Intimidate utility but that's really minimal when the two most common spread attackers (Togekiss and Zard) are super dangerous to Hitmontop itself. Weak do-nothing mon.

Ezrael: UR trash

SMB: celebi tier

Emforbes: Super UR

MajorBowman: UR

Changes:
UR → Tier 4
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 4 → Tier 3
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 2 → Tier 1
Tier 2 → Tier 3
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → UR
UR → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR
TIer 5 → UR

 

[tennisace]

Zeraora to 1.

I was absolutely not a believer in this mon in SM DOU but in this meta, Zeraora is an absolute terror. It puts a metric fuckton of pressure on your opponent as it's generally the fastest Pokemon on either team. It has so many different options it can run to support the team (Fake Out, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Electroweb, Volt Switch, Snarl, Taunt), or it can go offensive with Life Orb and excellent coverage (Plasma Fists / Knock Off / Close Combat is unresisted except for Whimsicott, which isn't particularly bulky). It fits in on basically every archetype except hard TR, which isn't particularly great right now. Basically what I'm saying is Zeraora is always doing _something_, and it's usage and win-rate in DPL reflect that.

Also, Ninetales to somewhere higher than 5, I honestly think it's more dangerous than Torkoal in this metagame rn.

 

[Nails]

Creation of Tier 0:

Pokemon that are incredible. These Pokemon overpower a significant portion of the format and are overbearing centralizing presences. You need very good reasons to justify not using them on your team.

Melmetal to 0.

Assault Vest Melmetal runs the show. Almost nothing can trade damage with it, it nearly always trades favorably barring severe misplays and often 2 for 1s. You have to come up with reasons to not use it and those reasons are often flawed. The meta is hypercentralized; anything that can't hang with Melmetal is a liability, often ending up getting sacked if it's caught out of position. It can't boost its damage but it doesn't need to because it's incredible at +0, or -1.

Also you can run the bad set (Acid Armor) and it's still a great, but merely tier 1 Pokemon.

Venusaur to 1

Sleep Powder is oppressive and it has a ton of stats to punish sleeping opponents, while also hedging against misses. It's a pain to remove and it's faster than everything when the sun is up, but is still very powerful without speed control support. Sludge Bomb hits grass types that would love to block Sleep Powder. Wide Lens is good.

Incineroar to 2

The format doesn't fit it. Incin doesn't have any of its friends; it's relatively weaker in a format with high levels of aggression like this one, and prefers slower, balance/midrange games where it can extract a lot of value out of cycling Fake Out and Intimidate. It's really not that great into Dragapult because it can't stop it from hitting the partner after you switch it in and Protect, and teams would greatly prefer Incineroar to be very good into Dragapult. It really misses gen 7 Super Sitrus berries; Flare Blitz recoil adds up way faster than it used to. Incineroar teams are 5-16 against non-Incineroar teams in DPL.

Dragapult to 2

It doesn't deal damage. It can always get its damage off, the speed stat is sick, it's Fake Out immune, it can switch out of Shadow Tag. Lots of good features. The issue is that it can't go physical because it can't Dynamax, and so it's always a Pokemon that ends up underwhelming despite a bunch of traits that should make it strong.

Kommo-o to 2

Kommo-o can serve as a Venusaur matchup, it's only of the only mons that can threaten AV Melmetal after setting up +2 SpA, and it has a very good speed tier after boosting. It was 4 when we thought Clangorous Soul was bad. We now know that set is good.

Whimsicott to 2

It trumps everything in the speed control war, and that alone can be enough of a tempo boon to swing a game and justify its presence on a team. Getting a second Prankster Tailwind off is frequently overwhelming so you often have to kill the Whimsicott, but that gives away a free switch which is also terrifying. It's the king of degenerate speed control in a degenerate format, and also partners very well with Melmetal.

Kyurem to 4

It can't hang with Melmetal. It wants to beat rain, but rain has a Melmetal so it can't sit in front of Specs Muddy Water and click Freeze Dry for an extended portion of the game. It's 0-6 in DPL, which is not everything but it's an indicator that it might not be great.

Gastrodon to 4

It kinda sucks. It should be better into Melmetal than it is in practice. It doesn't really do anything.

252+ SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 96 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 176-210 (40.4 - 48.2%)

Ninetales to 4

Agreed with tennisace, it's fast and Nasty Plot turns it from a weather setter into a genuine threat that can't be ignored. A weather setter that is threatening by itself is a powerful thing.

Keldeo to 5

No one uses it, it's not good.

 

[Commander Beta]

Can we go back to letters for the ranking btw? the SS tier sounds better than tier 0.

Now about venusaur, maybe if the descriptions of the tiers were changed venusaur could be tier 1, but by definintion tier 1 pokemon have to be able to work within most, if not all team styles, however, despite semi-successful attempts to make him work out of sun, he is still very much relying on sun, wether from itself or it's enemy, thus making it pretty much exclusive to that team composition, albeit very popular. If you weren't going to use sun in any way, you'd use roserade as your sleeper, since she has a bit more speed. This is the same reason, last gen, mega Charizard Y never rose to S+ tier despite being widely considered the best mega.

 

[Nails]

Can we go back to letters for the ranking btw? the SS tier sounds better than tier 0.

Now about venusaur, maybe if the descriptions of the tiers were changed venusaur could be tier 1, but by definintion tier 1 pokemon have to be able to work within most, if not all team styles, however, despite semi-successful attempts to make him work out of sun, he is still very much relying on sun, wether from itself or it's enemy, thus making it pretty much exclusive to that team composition, albeit very popular. If you weren't going to use sun in any way, you'd use roserade as your sleeper, since she has a bit more speed. This is the same reason, last gen, mega Charizard Y never rose to S+ tier despite being widely considered the best mega.

Roserade relies on Focus Sash for survivability, while Venusaur can eat nearly any hit from Pokemon that it doesn't outspeed, allowing it to run Wide Lens to hit Sleep Powder more consistently which in turn allows it to sit on the field for a longer time. I also disagree that it relies on sun, it certainly appreciates the support but the aforementioned bulk makes it a more useful Pokemon than Roserade in a non-Dynamax meta.

 

[Stratos]

On that note though rose to 4, there are gonna be teams that appreciate her outspeeding kiss / kommo / rotom / exca more than they need someone who can take a hit or check sun. extra power is also nice.

Can we go back to letters for the ranking btw? the SS tier sounds better than tier 0.

over my dead body. Numbers are much cleaner because they are not range-limited

 

[MajorBowman]

over my dead body

that can be arranged

Milotic to 3
Milotic has basically been discarded for Venusaur on teams that want a sleep bot even if there's no sun because Venusaur is way better at spread sleep quickly and actually making use of those turns. There are also just too many popular mons that can hit Milotic for too much damage to make its setup as potent anymore.

Blastoise to 2
Fake Out + Follow Me is nutty and Blastoise has the bulk to stick around and abuse its blessed movepool for a while.

Zeraora to 1
This thing is insane, fastest unboosted thing in the format with a couple different speed control options and a movepool that works super well together. It takes great advantage of its speed and threatens a lot of top mons with just 1 or 2 attacks. It fits on basically any team and will find a way to support pretty much anything sitting next to it.

Necrozma to 4
I regularly forget this Pokemon exists now, which is weird because I was a big fan of it pre-max ban. It just struggles to accomplish what you really want it to, and its role as an offensive TR setter isn't as valuable with Trick Room on the decline.

Weezing-G to 4
Canceling abilities is incredibly good right now, it's low key one of the best ways to beat sun and screws with a lot of the best mons in the format pretty heavily. Also a pretty solid toxic spikes setter, and we all know how strong those have become.

Dusclops to 5, Hydreigon to 5, Clefairy to UR, Primarina to UR
whomst

 

[Kenpwnchi]

Tier 1

• Excadrill

Sand Rush Excadrill, under Sand (and Tailwind [for extra speed control]), can outspeed most mons with unboosted speed, allowing it to potentially OHKO its target(s) before they can OHKO it. It can use several items, such as: Life Orb, Focus Sash, Choice Band, and etc. It also has the 2nd highest ATK out of all the Ground-type mons that cab be used. Overall, it's a very strong and fast threat that should be ranked higher, imo.
(252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 386-456 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
(252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 666-786 (210 - 247.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

• Milotic

Milotic is the Incineroar counter, plus more. Right now, Sleep is extremely prevalent, and one of the mons putting other mons to sleep happens to be Milotic. Use Coil twice, and your Hypnosis has 100% accuracy. It's bulky, so it's hard to OHKO (even for mons like Zeraora and Venusaur). If you want a powerhouse, you can use offensive moves like Hydro Pump and Blizzard without the drawbacks. Recover allows it to stay on the field. Tbh, this mon is extremely hard to break.
(252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 242-289 (61.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 322-382 (81.7 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

• Venusaur

Venusaur is the second premier mon using Sleep rn. Chlorophyll (under Sun [and/or Tailwind], like Sand Rush, Venusaur can outspeed most mons with unboosted speed. While the Sleep set is more common, Venusaur works well with Growth (and gets double the boost) and it can even use Sunny Day to set its own Sun (making a Sun setter unnecessary). Outside of Sun, Venusaur can easily take getting hit by Fire-type moves, and potentially strike back with Earth Power (if the mon is Fire-type).
(252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 265-315 (72.8 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Venusaur: 260-308 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

• Zeraora

Zeraora is extremely fast, has speed control options, can use Fake Out, and has a diverse range of moves it can choose from to counter its checks (like Excadrill). Volt Absorb allows it to eat moves from another Zeraora and heal. Zeraora is the main check to Milotic and Blastoise, and both are very bulky mons. It even has a decent bulk. You can't go wrong using this mon.
(252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Blastoise: 372-438 (102.7 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
(252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milotic: 536-632 (136 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

Tier 2

• Dragapult

Dragapult really isn't that good. It has nice abilities, moves, and speed, but it just doesn't do as much as it needs to. Mons like Incineroar and Zeraora carry Knock Off, so it can get really hectic for Dragapult. Also, Dragapult is kinda frail, so it'll be lucky to get an OHKO before being dropped (and the only thing saving it from that is its speed).

• Blastoise

Very good mon. As many have said before, Fake Out + Follow Me is nasty. I'm really nominating Blastoise for 2 because of its Shell Smash set. All you have to do is use Shell Smash with White Herb, and then you end up with a Blastoise that's fast, strong, and can tank hits. Water Spout legit puts everything to sleep (permanently) by being so strong, and, under Rain, Rain Dish allows it to gain help (which, with Leftovers and Aqua Ring, can be used to keep Water Spout at maximum damage.

• Keldeo

Keldeo, with Choice Scarf and some speed investment, can outspeed and OHKO Excadrill. I was looking for a fast Excadrill counter, and Keldeo happened to be one of them. Keldeo is fairly strong, and also works well with Assault Vest. It's diverse movepool allows it to check its checks (like Venusaur), plus more. Keldeo should be in the same bracket as Milotic and Blastoise.

• Necrozma

I've been using Necrozma as a TR counter, and it never fails. It's too bulky to be killed by the TR setter, bulky enough to activate Weakness Policy, and has plenty of moves to check a variety of stuff (like Heat Wave for Melmetal or Earth Power for Incineroar). Necrozma is, imo, the best Psychic mon rn. Gothitelle is too weak, and Mew doesn't even use Psychic like that.

• Whimsicott

Not sure how this went from 1 to 3, but please increase this. Have a problem with status moves? Np. Just use Whimsicott with Safeguard. Focus Sash is gonna allow Whimsicott to set up at least one thing before it dies, and its Tailwind is the fastest. I've won so many matches because this thing allows my mons to go first. It can even do some damage to Milotic and Blastoise (among others).

Tier 3

• Kommo-o

Clang clang. But no, for real. Kommo-o is pretty decent rn. Not many Psychic, Dragon, or Fairy mons to check it, it has access to Clangorous Soul (which can make it a monster), it has Soundproof for mons like Sylveon or Overcoat for mons like Venusaur. Did I mention it learns Flash Cannon and Flamethrower, so it can also check the aforementioned mons. Use it with a mon with Heal Pulse (like Gothitelle), and your opponent has a problem. Once this mon gets set up, it's hard to kill unless you have a super effective move.

• Tsareena

Fake Out is the main reason for me wanting to see this thing increased. Incineroar, Zeraora, Mew, Blastoise, and etc all use Fake Out, and many people use more than one of those mons on their team. That being said, Tsareena just stops all the madness. If she's not needed, she can use U-Turn to pivot out. Trop can allows for ATK control and Low Sweep allows for SPE control. She even has access to Rapid Spin, to remove hazards like Toxic Spikes, and Knock Off, to remove its victim's item. I use this mon with Choice Band, and I haven't looked back. Milotic and Blastoise can't take getting hit by this mon too much before dying.

Tier 4

• Ninetales

Ninetales is a better Sun setter than Torkoal rn because TR is disappearing. It can power up its own Fire-type moves, can check Water-type mons with Solar Beam, and Hypnosis is pretty good rn. Ninetales speed is decent, as well, allowing it to outspeed a lot of mons.

Tier 5

• Obstagoon

Obstagoon is my favorite Gen 8 mon. Defiant is amazing rn, and this thing can OHKO Incineroar (with Choice Band) after being boosted once. Its speed is nice, and its bulk is okay. It can also use Fake Out to slow the opponent down and Parting Shot to control its threat's offensives, as well as Obstruct to decrease the DEF of those who attack into it. Did I mention you CAN'T use Parting Shot on this mon, and that it also drops Tyranitar and Excadrill with ease (using Close Combat)? It doesn't have many threats rn, so I'm definitely taking advantage of this mon.

• Barraskewda

Idk why this thing isn't ranked. Barraskewda is the best Swift Swim user we have when it comes to Rain. It can outspeed and OHKO shit like Zeraora (with Drill Run) and Excadrill (with Waterfall). Even at -1, if given a Choice Band, Barraskewda can still drop Incineroar. It can use Psychic Fangs to counter Venusaur. Tbh, the attack, speed, and movepool of this mon makes it great rn, and could put Rain teams in a very good position. Barraskewda works perfectly for a late game sweep.

• Hawlucha

With Unburden and some speed investment, this things can outspeed Sand Rush Excadrill, and OHKO it with a Fighting-type move. I'm using White Herb on it to counter Incineroar (since it resets lowered stats to 0 and Hawlucha is a Fighting-type mon). Since Hawlucha is also a Flying-type mon, it has the potential to OHKO Venusaur.

• Malamar

Malamar, with Scope Lens, Night Slash, and Psycho Cut, is able to check mons like Mew and Venusaur, while also potentially hitting them with a critical hit. Contrary and Superpower makes it a good Incineroar counter, and then you can use Baton Pass to give all of Malamar's stats to another mon without any drawbacks. It doesn't have any resists, but not many Bug-type and Fairy-type mons exist to counter it.

• Toxapex

I've been seeing this thing a lot since Toxic Spikes rose in popularity. Not only can it set Toxic Spikes, but with Merciless, it can drop mons that are poisoned with ease (especially if it has Life Orb [which it can mitigate the recoil by recovering). Baneful Bunker is good, and Venom Drench is even better. Depending on how you use your Toxapex, it can counter Fire-type and/or Fairy-type mons (like Incineroar and Togekiss). Toxapex's bulk is gonna guarantee it gets to set up, and it can cause a lot of problems if it starts boosting its stats with moves like Stockpile.

 

[fespy]

Blastoise to 2
Fake Out + Follow Me is nutty and Blastoise has the bulk to stick around and abuse its blessed movepool for a while.

Weezing-G to 4
Canceling abilities is incredibly good right now, it's low key one of the best ways to beat sun and screws with a lot of the best mons in the format pretty heavily. Also a pretty solid toxic spikes setter, and we all know how strong those have become.

Seconding these two noms and adding a couple points to what's said above.

Stoise is a redirect mon that resists steel, and right now steel type attacks are guaranteed to be clicked by both players every game.

Bongola can sit in front of a lot of mons in the current meta. Can outspeed and burn nutboy, render goth useless, and severely weaken weather teams, which are a huge part of the current meta. The misty terrain version is worth noting too, protecting teammates against sleep and allowing for shenanigans like side swagger on melmetal.

 

[GimTomato]

In theory, Dusclops should be Tier 3. Access to Imprison, Ally Switch, TR, and Haze make it a pretty good support mon. And since it's bulky, the imprison can last longer, allowing less time for TR to be set, removing the risk of not correctly reading ally switch, and still being able to use your own Ally Switch. I'd like to call it the king of using your own tools against you, but that may or may not be too much hyperbole.

 

[Idyll]

Corviknight: 4 -> 5

From a viability / metagaming standpoint, it blows as seen by only being used 1/90 times in DPL. It's very clearly outclassed at the set-up job by Melmetal, and it's also questionable at supporting with Tailwind considering Mew exists. Honestly the niche of specifically checking Exca with some extra sauce is oddly specific, like it ain't that hard to do by building a naturally good combination of 5 Pokemon, and there's also the fact that Zeraora's the most popular it's ever been.

Just by looking at rest of what's on 4 rn, I really don't see how Corviknight can even compare to most of what's on there; the Fish and the rain guys have seen use as did Tsareena, while Kommo-o is clearly a well recognized demon at this point. I get that it's not necessarily a scale of power, but man seeing it along with those guys pissed me off lmao. I guess Corv in 4 will make sense when Kommo-o rises and Hydrei disappears but man I still really don't see this guy as a tier 4 Pokemon, seems too honest for no real benefit and more of a band-aid pick for Exca if anything.

 

[talkingtree]

The slate went out before the above nomination, so we'll make sure to address it next time. That said, I have shifts for everyone! These votes are all made assuming Melmetal's continued presence in the metagame, so if Melmetal ends up being banned we may need to reassess, but making the VR as accurate as possible for right now is still important.

There are a few Pokemon that were nominated for both rises and drops, so in those cases the current tier is listed in the middle with the two nominations on either side.

Zeraora Tier 2 → Tier 1

votes

talkingtree: Tier 2. I think Zeraora is on the level of some of the current Tier 1 mons…. specifically, the ones I'm voting to drop to 2. Zera's great, super flexible with Vest/Goggles/LO all being decent, but the bulk is pretty lacking and it kind of needs more than one of those items at once. Melmetal and Gothitelle are pretty clearly above Zera to me, and having them in the same tier sounds wrong to me. Tier 2 fits pretty well imo.

Qsns: no. not metagame defining enough. It has a decent impact in each game and is quite splashable but not nearly as warping as Melmetal or Gothitelle.

Ezrael: Tier 2. Zeraora is tier 1 in terms of splashability, but pretty far from it in terms of potency. It does a little bit in each game, but not enough to warrant tier 1 status imo.

MajorBowman: my nom

SMB: tier 2, i agree with talkingtree

Venusaur Tier 2 → Tier 1

votes

Qsns: 2, think I would’ve voted 1 if not for the recent surge of successful Kommo-o teams. Though it is truly potent in the right matchup, its main weapon can be defended against and the metagame has successfully adapted to it.

talkingtree: Tier 2. Goggles, Kommo-o, and Substitute are all becoming prevalent as a response to Venu so it's not nearly as overpowering as Tier 1 would suggest. Also, it can't hit Melmetal which is pretty deadly for an offensive mon right now.

Ezrael: Tier 2. Venusaur definitely has bo1 problems like the ones mentioned above. I think that speaks to its potency, but it definitely makes it less reliable as a result. Venusaur is meta-warping in the sense that people need to run goggles to not consistently lose to it, but it doesn’t fit on enough teams to be Tier 1.

MajorBowman: 2, Venusaur is super strong but gets stopped too hard but a few too many things to fit in 1

SMB: tier 2 as long as sleep powder keeps having 75% accuracy

Incineroar Tier 1 → Tier 2

votes

Qsns: yes. Extraordinarily bad DPL winrate, cannot do anything to defensive teams, and most offensive teams utilize mons like Kommo-o and Terrakion that shred it without a second thought - it’s in a really bad spot.

talkingtree: Tier 2. read Nails's nom, it covers everything I think really well.

MajorBowman: 2 and probably even lower, Incineroar really just fails to make the same impact that it did in SM. Intimidate is slightly less valuable now, losing pinch berries is a huge hit for it, and there are better options for Fake Out

SMB: yeah drop this, it’s still a great mon but as Nails said, the format doesn’t fit it

Ezrael: Abstain. I am unsure how I feel about this one.

Dragapult Tier 1 → Tier 2

votes

Qsns: yes, super splashable in theory but extremely underwhelming in this metagame. Zeraora and melmetal are just too much of a roadblock for this to consistently do work most stages of the game.

talkingtree: Tier 2. If Dragapult was a little bit stronger or a little bit bulkier, then that might justify Tier 1, but it's not. Even being a tiny bit faster to claim the role of fastest unboosted Pokemon might give it enough positive traits, but it just falls short in too many areas. Still good, but not Tier 1.

Ezrael: Loses to Melmetal. 2.

MajorBowman: 2, agree with talkingtree. Dragapult falls *just* short in a few different ways, if it got a little bump in even just one of them it would probably be tier 1 material.

SMB: yeah this isn’t good enough to be tier 1. Offensive zeraora sets are pretty common rn, same with av melmetal so that hurts draga’s viability

Kommo-o Tier 4 → Tier 2

votes

Qsns: yes. Clang clang. Best offensive setup mon in a tier with plenty of options to help it (Gothitelle, Incineroar) and its best partner in Goth as well as the best Pokemon in Melmetal can help trap in the fairies quite easily that it would otherwise lose to. Versatile enough with its ability + item choice depending on how weak your team is mirror or Venusaur. Iron Defense sucks but Clangorous Soul is easily good enough for 2.

talkingtree: For sure, Clangorous Soul is absurdly threatening especially when paired with Goth to trap and remove its answers. Even gets the chance to use multiple Clangs sometimes, at which point you're pretty much screwed. If you're worried about opposing Kommo-o, you can even use Soundproof + Safety Goggles on Iron Defense sets. A rise all the way to 2 might seem hasty but it's shown in DPL that it deserves it.

Ezrael: Clang Gang

MajorBowman: Yes, Clangorous Soul is a great set and the ID/BP set is still solid too. It fits on a lot of teams and it isn’t super hard to take out its counters (thanks Melmetal). Its typing and abilities make it a great blanket check to a lot of common Pokemon as well.

SMB: agree with everyone, as bowman said its typing makes it have a great matchup vs both sand and sun. It also doesn’t really need much support to set up due to having good matchups vs stuff like incineroar, water types, zaraora, etc...

Whimsicott Tier 3 → Tier 2

votes

Qsns: 2. Prankster Tailwind is utterly stupid in an offensive metagame and the suite of attackers that heavily benefit from the support (Terrakion, the sun clowns, Dracovish) can overcome its weakness to Melmetal.

talkingtree: 2, dropping all the way to 3 might've been an overcorrection. Recent DPL matches have shows that, when paired with cringe sun / Melmetal / Dracovish / basically any offensive mon that greatly benefits from moving first, Whimsicott is incredibly threatening. I think Nails summed it up well when he said "Getting a second Prankster Tailwind off is frequently overwhelming so you often have to kill the Whimsicott, but that gives away a free switch which is also terrifying." So Whimsicott might be fairly easy to KO, but it has to be taken out at the right time.

Ezrael: I think Whimsicott has declined slightly in viability since the nomination was made, partly as a result of the rise of AV melmetal and the relative decline in Dragapult usage. However, I still believe Whimsicott is a very potent pokemon that deserves consideration on many teams. Whimsicott is always able to set up tailwind and a ton of pokemon appreciate outspeeding the entire format, rather than just most of it. Whimsicott is a pretty core pokemon in sun, and finds its place on a number of other archetypes. 2.

MajorBowman: 2, I think Nails said it very well. Prankster Tailwind is pretty bonkers and Moonblast is a stupid move, not to mention the vast number of options beyond those two moves it has in its arsenal. Playing “guess the moveset” can be pretty scary when you’re playing Whimsicott, and losing that game can put you pretty far behind.

SMB: 2, everything has been said

Kyurem Tier 3 → Tier 4

votes

talkingtree: 3, I still really like Kyurem. A fast Glaciate is great, especially when it has the coverage for every prominent Pokemon in the metagame aside from Gothitelle. Kyurem pretty much needs Melmetal to be removed to do its job, but that's why it's Tier 3 and not any higher.

Qsns: 4. Kyurem has a lot of stats but generic bulky mons don’t do well into this polarized metagame. Also asking for Melmetal to be sufficiently weakened is a really really tough task.

Ezrael: 4. Stats are what do it for me. Kyurem has been used 6 times in DPL and it is a solid 0-6. I agree that Kyurem needs Melmetal to be removed, but that’s basically the entire game at this point. If Kyurem can never do anything when your opponent has a Melmetal, then Kyurem doesn’t do much. Stats push it over the edge for me though, as it seems like it should be good in theory.

MajorBowman: 4, I haven’t really seen Kyurem do a whole lot, it feels like a Pokemon that does way better in theory than in practice. Any sort of chip damage goes a long way to putting into KO range, and it isn’t strong enough to be run as purely an offensive Pokemon since it loses a lot of neutral damage trades.

SMB: as I said last time, kyurem hasn’t impressed me at all, now I have dpl winrate stats to know why. Tier 4 is fine.

Gastrodon Tier 3 → Tier 4

votes

talkingtree: 4 definitely feels more appropriate, I'd even be okay with a drop down to 5. We haven't seen much of Gastro in DPL and for good reason -- it's just hard to justify. Answering Mel/Incin/Zera should be good, but when it's competing with Milotic, trashed on by Venu, useless against Kommo-o, trapped and removed by Goth + any hard hitters…. doing its job of walling and taking out those mons almost never happens.

Qsns: 4. Great in theory, doesn’t do enough in practice, Venusaur weakness is really crippling.

Ezrael: 5. 252+ SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 96 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 176-210 (40.4 - 48.2%)

MajorBowman: 4, agree with talkingtree

SMB: tier 4, gastro is in an awkward spot rn it still has good matchups vs stuff like water types or zeraora, but with venu, kommo and toxic spikes having so much popularity there are fewer reasons to use it

Ninetales Tier 5 → Tier 4 (or higher)

votes

Qsns: 3. Better sun setter than Torkoal solely due to its solid speed tier that fits the offensive nature of sun teams.

Ezrael: 3. Sun is at least a tier 3 team. Ninetales is the key mon on the team, as Torkoal’s speed tier leaves a lot to be desired in the current meta. That fits the definition of tier 3, “Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.”

talkingtree: qsns and Ezrael convinced me, this is a 3. Just as good as Torkoal if not better, and what it offers to the team is far more than its individual impact. On its own, Nasty Plot can be pretty threatening but difficult to get into position, and Eject Pack + Overheat is kind of nifty but ends up forcing it out from Intimidate anyway, and oftentimes sun won't have a safe switchin to capitalize fully on the momentum.

MajorBowman: 3, Ezrael said it really well

SMB: not a big fan of ninetales but ig it fits on tier 3 description

Keldeo Tier 2 ← Tier 3 → Tier 5

votes

Qsns: 5, its coverage doesn’t do anything super relevant besides Incineroar (Melmetal tanks and Thunderpunches it hahaaaa) and doesn’t hit hard enough to break past fatter teams. I don’t ever have a good reason to use this mon.

Ezrael: 5. I really don’t know why, but Keldeo just feels really mediocre. It just isn’t fast enough and doesn’t have the right typing to make mons go away when it wants them to.

talkingtree: 5. When Melmetal started using AV, Keldeo lost its ability to OHKO it and therefore a significant part of its niche. Taking a hit from Zard and KOing in return with LO Hydro is neat I guess, since the other Fighting-type musketeer Terrak has to fear a Scarf Focus Blast.

MajorBowman: 5, Keldeo is similar to Kyurem in that it should do way more than it actually does. A few particularly strong matchups are nice, but they don’t outweigh the rest of its very mediocre existence

SMB: tier 5, i forgot this mon existed

Roserade UR → Tier 4

votes

Ezrael: I do not think that the speed and special attack that Roserade gets trades off sufficiently well with the amount of physical bulk that it loses. Venusaur also has the additional benefit of being a sun matchup in one mon, which offers flexibility in matchups even to sand teams. UR.

Qsns: Seconding Ezrael

talkingtree: 5. Stratos's points are solid and I think the niche over Venusaur, while small, is relevant and makes it worth using in some small scenarios.

MajorBowman: Roserade just seems like an explicitly worse Venusaur other than the slightly nicer speed tier, I think even on non-sun teams Venusaur is slightly better just because it gives you a sun matchup immediately like Jon said. UR.

SMB: yeah I agree with stratos, tier 4 is too much but maybe tier 5 is fine. On non sun teams, venu has a weird speed stat to check some mons it should check, roserade outspeeds rotom and doesn’t rely on speed ties to beat togekiss which is great.

Milotic Tier 1 ← Tier 2 → Tier 3

votes

Ezrael: 3. Milotic wishes it was Venusaur. I feel like milotic takes a bit too long to set up and the payoff is a bit too small. Aggressive teams like Sun and Rain just push through it, Gothitelle taunts it and traps it, and defensive teams all have toxic spikes. Not to mention Venusaur is a massive threat to milotic and can completely invalidate it in certain positions, especially because Milo can’t switch.

talkingtree: 3, what Ezrael said. Still deserves 3 because after it gets a Coil off it'll set up on Melmetal, but unless you're getting Competitive boosts it can't capitalize on the sleep turns as well as other sleep spreaders.

MajorBowman: 3, my nom

SMB: tier 3, agree with ezrael

Qsns: 3, agree with Ezrael

Blastoise Tier 3 → Tier 2

votes

Qsns: toise tanks melmetal AND has broken move fake out AND has broken move follow me. Really potent combination of support in a format that encourages strong breakers, set up and not dying to Melmetal. 2

Ezrael: Easy 2. Blastoise doesn’t immediately lose to melmetal and has an amazing set of support options.

talkingtree: 2, I've been converted. qsns/Ezrael/Bowman covered everything relevant.

MajorBowman: my nom

SMB: I’m going to say the same thing I said last time; great at what it does, but it isn’t enough to be tier 2 in my eyes

Necrozma Tier 2 ← Tier 3 → Tier 4

votes

talkingtree: 3's still good to me. Safety Goggles + Photon Geyser taking out Venu is sweet, and the overall stats are solid. Doing great in DPL so far too (7-1).

MajorBowman: 4, my nom

SMB: tier 2, best (and probably only) offensive tr setter rn. Really good antimeta pick; beats kommo and venu and sun/rain teams struggle beating trick room once melmetal is chipped. Safety goggles set is great.

Ezrael: 3. Necrozma has a pretty solid niche, but that niche isn’t very necessary right now. I agree that it can be a solid antimeta pick, but antimeta sounds a lot like tier 3 as opposed to tier 2 to me.

Qsns: 3, agree with Ezrael

Weezing-G Tier 5 → Tier 4

votes

talkingtree: Absolutely. Blocking abilities, spreading status, and having the bulk to do so reliably is powerful.

Qsns: 4. Provides incredible support through turning off threatening abilities and Tspikes even if the mon itself sucks a lot of the time.

MajorBowman: 4, my nom

Ezrael: 4, I think Weezing creates its own archetype rn.

SMB: 5, loses to melmetal, neutralizing gas is not even its best ability, toxapex is a better bulky tspiker

Dusclops Tier 4 → Tier 5

votes

Qsns: Melmetal makes Trick Room outside of Gothitelle extremely difficult to run. Dusclops also doesn’t really do enough in the polarized format we have now, where teams are either murdering you as soon as possible or setting up in your face. 5

Ezrael: Dusclops wishes that Incin didn’t have Knock Off, and that it didn’t get flinched by Melmetal.

talkingtree: 5. As Bowman said, whomst.

MajorBowman: 5, my nom

SMB: 5, only viable in full tr. Full tr = bad

Hydreigon Tier 4 → Tier 5

votes

Qsns: why isn’t this a kommo-o. Needs the same offensive support as kommo-o and then is not a kommo-o. Also it loses to melmetal. 5

Ezrael: 5. Hydreigon wishes it didn’t die to Melmetal.

talkingtree: 5. Pretty meh all around but its stats and matchups are enough to keep it ranked

MajorBowman: 5, my nom

SMB: 5, i haven’t seen this mon for a while, it has potential to be ok but it also loses to a lot of common mons

Clefairy Tier 5 → UR

votes

Qsns: use a better support pokemon. UR

Ezrael: Rest in Power sweet prince. UR.

talkingtree: Melmetal's on every team, so Clefairy's irrelevant. Honestly wasn't that good to begin with, but the nature of the meta right now is really punishing to it.

MajorBowman: my nom

SMB: passive redirection that loses to melmetal = UR

Primarina Tier 5 → UR

votes

Qsns: loses to AV melmetal way too hard. It’s not that great right now. UR

Ezrael: Loses to AV melmetal, but has potential. It might be good once melmetal gets banned. UR

talkingtree: UR. I won't make fun of you for using Primarina but you probably shouldn't.

MajorBowman: my nom

SMB: haven’t seen primarina get usage since dmax ban so ig UR is ok, it also faces a lot of competition with better water types

Excadrill Tier 2 → Tier 1

votes

Qsns: No, excadrill wants to be melmetal

Ezrael: No. Excadrill wishes it was Melmetal. Still a tier 2 pokemon though.

talkingtree: no, what Ezrael said.

MajorBowman: A very solid tier 2 but not better, it’s a bit too one-dimensional for me to want to put it in 1

SMB: no, this is not even close to be tier 1

Tsareena Tier 4 → Tier 3

votes

Qsns: 3. I think this fits on just enough teams to consider it a 3 - it provides invaluable Fake Out protection on Hyper Offense teams and Assault Vest can often trade at least 1 for 1 due to its difficulty to pivot around and its high base power moves. Generally decent mon that is very rarely not putting in its work.

Ezrael: 4. I am a large Tsareena fan, but I believe that it comes with a large opportunity cost in this format. There are a ton of viable support mons, like Blastoise, Zeraora, Gothitelle, Incineroar, Venusaur, and others. Some teams still like Tsareena, but that fits very much into the definition of Tier 4 to me: ‘only particularly useful for certain team styles.’ Most teams would rather have the additional utility provided by the above support mons.

talkingtree: 4, what Ezrael said.

MajorBowman: 4, agree with Ezrael

SMB: 4, everything has been said

Obstagoon UR → Tier 5

votes

Qsns: no

Ezrael: obstagoon forgets to do damage, even after intimidate.

talkingtree: I could see a theoretical situation where Obstagoon is threatening, but a whole lot needs to happen for that to be the case. Relying on CC to hit Incin/Melmetal also means its decent bulk on paper rarely turns out to actually be decent in practice.

MajorBowman: Obstagoon is another wildly mediocre mon that fools people into thinking it’s good with a couple neat tools, there are so many things that could fit in slots better than Obstagoon

SMB: :messi:

Barraskewda UR → Tier 5

votes

Qsns: UR. personal experience, this shit sucks.

Ezrael: Outclassed by Dracovish and Ludicolo, and Rain doesn’t have too much room to run additional water mons

talkingtree: If you want a strong physical attacker on Rain, you should use Scarf Dracovish. It'll outspeed anything relevant and hit way harder. Liquidation/Psychic Fangs/Close Combat offers some decent coverage, but a lack of bulk and reliance on CB + not being Intimidated leads Barraskewda unable to do the job of plowing through during Rain turns.

MajorBowman: I tried it, it sucks :(

SMB:

Hawlucha UR → Tier 5

votes

Qsns: no

Ezrael: Unviable.

talkingtree: Kind of fringe viable when DMax was around, unusable now.

MajorBowman: This thing is pretty bad

SMB: :put_litter_in_its_place:

Malamar UR → Tier 5

votes

Qsns: god no

Ezrael: No, scope lens psycho cut is not a set. You don’t even get the benefit of avoiding intim drops because you are contrary.

talkingtree: I bet Demantoid could make this work; pretty much no one else should bother trying.

MajorBowman: Also pretty bad

SMB: :notlikeduck:

Toxapex UR → Tier 5

votes

Ezrael: Weezing does more damage and has a better ability.

talkingtree: Full Stall, like SMB made, actually benefits quite well from Toxapex's bulk and access to recovery, but otherwise I'd rather use Weezing for its ability or Mew for Pollen Puff/other utility as my TSpiker. UR.

SMB: Yes, solid tspiker for bulkier teams. Being immune to toxic makes it a great wincon with stockpile, ofc it requires support to make it work and has some glaring weaknesses but it’s definitely tier 5 worthy. It also beats av melmetal 1v1!

MajorBowman: There are 2 objectively much better Toxic Spikers and Toxapex is such a do-nothing Pokemon, UR

Qsns: UR, what bowman said.

Changes:
Tier 1 → Tier 2
Tier 1 → Tier 2
Tier 4 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 3 → Tier 4
Tier 5 → Tier 3
Tier 3 → Tier 5
Tier 2 → Tier 3
Tier 3 → Tier 2
Tier 5 → Tier 4
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 4 → Tier 5
Tier 5 → UR
Tier 5 → UR

 

[ProNooob]

Why is this list so much more different than vgc?

 

[Commander Beta]

Why is this list so much more different than vgc?

Cause we are too cool for VGC and following Game Freak.

Sidenote: mainly doubles OU adds mythical pokemon which aren't VGC legal for some reason and don't place item or level restrictions and bans annoying or OP strategies and pokemon, for example right now we are in the process of suspect testing the posible ban of melmetal. Even though it wont be relevant for another 2 years, restricted pokemon almost never enter DOU even if they are VGC legal that year.

 

[spookysocialist]

Why is this list so much more different than vgc?

Theres a couple of reasons but 3 main ones that I'll list in order:

No Dynamax - Smogon doubles bans dynamax while VGC allows it. This alone affects every pokemon's viability, and a lot of strong VGC pokemon that rely on abusing dynamax (and often weakness policy with it) aren't as good here.

Melmetal: the post above me mentioned mythical but there's one main one that matters, and that's Melmetal. Melmetal is absurdly strong and has a huge impact on the VR, boosting those who fair well (or, less bad, few things do well vs melmetal) and hurting those that do poorly vs it. It's currently being suspected and if banned, the VR may slightly shift closer to the VGC vr.

6 on 6 - VGC plays 4 on 4 while smogon doubles is 6 on 6 - this makes battles longer, increasing the usage of stealth rock and slightly hampering the use of things like tailwind and trick room.

Theres a few other differences like the gravity + sleep ban and the beat up ban, but those are the main reasons.