Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra] (Smooth Rock and Kyurem-B banned, see post #90)

Decem

I lost a bet
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Monotype Leader
Welcome to the Monotype metagame discussion thread for the Crown Tundra DLC!
Monotype on Showdown
Monotype is a really simple concept; you build a team of six Pokemon sharing one common type and fight against teams with the same restriction. You are allowed to use Pokemon with dual-typing on a team represented by either type, but every other Pokemon must share at least one type with the dual-typed Pokemon. For example, you can use Gyarados, a Water / Flying type Pokemon, on a Water or a Flying team. If you choose Gyarados, you can also use Jellicent, a Water / Ghost type Pokemon, and create a Water team with the two of them, but you cannot use Noivern, a Flying / Dragon type Pokemon, on that team because it does not share a type with Gyarados and Jellicent.

Using six Pokemon of the same type can lead to some interesting team archetypes, and it challenges teambuilders to make sure the common weaknesses a certain type of Pokemon share are covered as best as possible. This metagame allows for all kinds of Pokemon to be viable against top threats, so be imaginative. As you play, you'll find many unique threats that aren't common in the usage based tiers.

The Monotype metagame features builds from all playstyles—Offense, Balance, and Stall. The playstyle will often reflect the Pokemon available on that type. For instance, there are many strong offensive Fighting types, but the type lacks reliable defensive Pokemon. As such, a Stall Fighting-type team is hard to make, while Offensive Fighting is more likely to be viable. The best Monotype players build and play a wide variety of types, using teams that capitalize on the strengths of an individual type. Forcing your favorite type into an archetype that it will struggle to pull off is a good way to lose matches and get frustrated!

Tiering and Discussion
Monotype has its own tiering, which is based on the tiering philosophy. The metagame is led by a 9-man council, each with an equal say in tiering decisions.

You may find the current banlist in the Monotype entry on the Smogdex.
This thread is meant for discussion—not just requesting bans! That said, if you feel anything not on these banlists is too overpowered for the meta, this is the place to discuss it. All tiering discussion should be framed within the context of the Monotype Tiering Philosophy, which you can find below. Additionally, if you want to recommend a Pokemon for suspect testing, include some evidence and reasoning why you think said Pokemon is broken. Just saying something like, "I think Kyurem-Black should be banned because it has base 170 Attack." is a post that will get deleted, and it won't get you taken seriously. Back up your claim with replays showing how the Pokemon is overpowered in practice. Tell us how it interacts against other types/playstyles, what checks and counters it, its role on the team type(s) where it's played (going back to the Kyurem-Black example, how does it play on Mono-Ice vs. Mono-Dragon?), and so on. If you need any advice or have any questions on things you think are broken but are unsure what the best way to post is, contact a member of the Monotype Council either through message or on Showdown in the Monotype room.

As a final thought, before you post, think about what you're saying and whether it adds anything to the conversation or sparks discussion. If not, add to it until it does. Let's make an effort to have fun while keeping a certain level of mature conversation!

Special note: This thread is for metagame discussion, not tiering philosophy discussion. If you would like to propose a policy change then please start a private message with the members of the Monotype council. If the council would like to field general discussion on the tiering philosophy then it will make a post requesting input from the community.


Here is the list of previous Pokemon returning in this DLC:
This list does not include new additions such as Galarian Slowking, Calyrex, and the Galarian birds as well as the newly introduced Regileki and Regidrago. As described in the tiering information, this DLC is by far the most impactful mid-generation change as it reintroduces many previous metagame staples to the tier, thus shaking up Monotype's metagame by a ton. The Monotype council has decided to unban previous aspects that we think may be easier to deal with when there is more available options as well as allowing all returning Pokemon bar cover legendaries to be usable. In this thread, we encourage people to share their thoughts on elements that they think could be potentially unhealthy in order to help balance out the metagame.
 
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Monotype: The Crown Tundra
:tapu_koko: :tapu_lele: :tapu_fini: :tapu_bulu: :tyrantrum: :aurorus: :diancie: :zygarde: :nidoqueen: :nidoking: :crobat: :electabuzz: :dragonite: :raikou: :entei: :suicune: :aggron: :altaria: :cradily: :absol: :walrein: :relicanth: :metagross: :regirock: :regice: :registeel: :latias: :latios: :garchomp: :electivire: :magmortar: :uxie: :mesprit: :azelf: :heatran: :regigigas: :cresselia: :audino: :cryogonal: :tornadus: :thundurus: :landorus::stakataka: :nihilego: :celesteela: :kartana: :pheromosa: :buzzwole: :naganadel::blacephalon::xurkitree::guzzlord:

I'm just as excited as you for this new DLC 2 release for our tier and this post is it to start some general discussion topics for this new thread.
New Pokemon!


I do not see how Calyrex is better than Celebi in no possible way due to it lacking Stealth Rock and the many coverage selection Celebi already has. This is already incredibly more fragile than Celebi and I expected this to have way more knowledge than Celebi, sad.

I do expect the same results as Slowbro-G from DLC 1. I ran Slowbro-G Flame/Slak/Psychic/NP with Shuca Berry for Ground-type Pokemon such as Excadrill and Diggersby. It had some crazy EVs and assuming this is a little weaker on the def end you may need more defensive investment. I do see Colburr being a niche on Psychic and credits to 1TL to using G-Slowbro on Psychic as Tspikes Removal once again. C/D Psychic and D Poison are wait I expect for this.

I am not amused by Regieleki's offensive expectancies because it lacks coverage. I'm quite more appealed by it learning screens + Explosion for it to be more supportive but Specs can work. I was expecting rocks, even though it may not look like it, but I was thinking "maybe if regirock learns rocks this can right?" but I was wrong. Regidraco feels outclasses by a lot of Dragons but if you choose to run it, I suggest running both Dragon's Energy and Draco Meteor.


Moltres just seems very hard to squeeze on Dark-type teams due to Manidbuzz being generally bulkier and supportive with U-turn. G-Articuno seems a bit outclassed by the latis in terms of support. Zapdos seems very interesting moreso on Fighting and comparing its base stats to our neighboring Fighting/Flying, Hawlucha, its stats are higher. Although it may lack recovery, I find it somewhat interchangeable with Hawlucha(No I am not saying this is better than Hawlucha at the moment but 125 vs 92, cmon).

Guardian Deities
(Tapu Koko/Tapu Lele/Tapu Fini/Tapu Bulu)

This argument was made pre-release and a conclusion was made that Tapu Koko does NOT learn Close Combat and Play Rough but I didn't type this up for no reason!
I find Tapu Koko being brought up to a ban-discussion quite weird as some of the main arguments was "Tapu Koko 2HKOS Landous with Play Rough!!!" Let's back track to SM, Tapu Koko KOS Landorus-Therian with Hidden Power Ice and with Celesteela, you are able to scout with Protect to see what it will be using next considering CB/Specs just makes the most use of its offensive capabilities. A similar Pokemon that 2HKOs almost everything is Urshifu-S. Its clearly slower but you aren't able to scout what Urshifu will be doing next thanks to Unseen Fists, so I kind of predict this to be in the same place where Urshifu is at this moment. I do feel like Choice Band/Specs makes use of Tapu Koko the most. With the release of a lot of Electric-type Pokemon, I find it a lesser need to run Alolan Raichu considering most competitve Electric-type teams will not be using Terrain Extender AND the loss of A-Raichu Z is very huge.

Before making a judgement, I have to see this in battle. I am no longer worried about Specs Expanding Force and the little hope back in my head says "its reliant on terrain, Dark-types, terrain is not defoggable" but it also nerfs priority moves like Sneak/Sucker/BP that some Pokemon generally run. While for the meantime, I do NOT find this productive with Fairy, and instead counterproductive due to it crippling many priority users on Fairy such as Klefki, Azumarill, Grimmsnarl, and Mimikyu.

Tapu Bulu is going to be good for Fairy, especially with Ground being more viable and has STAB Horn Leech. However in terms of Grass, It doesn't get CC or PR so I do feel like Rillaboom will still has its uses if not better due to it having useful moves like U-turn and Knock Off.

Tapu Fini is going to be amazing, although it may face competition with Primarina and Azumarill, I can see this being C- on Water. Primarina does does learn Draining Kiss and Psychic, which hits Toxapex. How do you all feel about Tapu Fini? I feel like its lacking the coverage it needs.

Does Rock have the tools to become viable in the meta?
(Stakataka/Nihilego/Aggron/Diancie)
I do expect Rock to take a more approachable step in becoming more relevant in the meta as it can run Trick Room now. It may not have a spectacular matchup against Water, Ground, or Steel, but I do feel like Stakataka and TR brings a lot. I was thinking of H-Slam Stakataka for Hatterene, but what is a Hatterene to Stakataka, especially in sand. Offensive Rock will do good also; the loss of HP Ice for Nihilego is not pleasant but the standard shuckle rock will always help supporting offensive mons across all gens 6-8.

More Discussion Topics*

Unbanned Pokemon & Items*
(Urshifu-R/Melmetal/Magearna/Damp Rock/Smooth Rock)

Forces of Nature*
(Landorus/Thundurus/Torndadus)


Too much Steel?*
(Heatran/Aegislash/Magearna/Stakataka/Melmetal)

Ultra Beasts!*
:stakataka: :nihilego: :celesteela: :kartana: :pheromosa: :buzzwole: :naganadel::blacephalon::xurkitree::guzzlord:

Are Spectrier & Glastrier even worth running on Ghost and Ice?*​
 
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At first, glance Spectrier seems to be a better Gengar. Unfortunately, it’s movepool atrocious despite having Nasty Plot and Special Moxie. It’s not getting past Tyranitar/Mandibuzz/Chansey/Porygon 2 anytime soon. Gengar has much better Coverage, notably Focus Blast and Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave for the Fairy matchup.

There’s also Blacephalon, who has similar stats to Gengar, but much higher Sp. Atk and secondary Fire STAB as well as Beast Boost for a similar snowballing.

Don’t get me wrong I really think Spectrier will be a really great addition to Mono Ghost, since Special Moxie + Nasty Plot + 130 Spd/145 Sp. Atk is nothing to scoff at. I just don’t think it will completely outclass Gengar or even Blacephalon.

If anything, Ghost got some really good additions with Blacephalon and Spectrier. SubCM Blacephalon looks really good for handling Chansey/Porygon2 Duo.
 
Some interesting additions:
1) Aurorus is finally able to use Aurora Veil through breeding. Maybe, it has a niche in Rock? As both a Stealth Rock setter and Veil Setter?
2) Cradily has now access to Leech Seed. Does it have the room to run it?
3) The eon duo have good coverage moves in Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere.
4) Small correction: Tapu Bulu does learn Close Combat, unless there's sth. wrong with the link: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/...c78e30534cf76dcd6fcfcf8cb142889/gistfile1.txt
5) Regieleki's going to be interesting. Did Electric ever have a Rapid Spinner? While Pkm resisting or being immune to its Stab moves will cause a headache, it's extremely fast. Even being able to out-speed sth. like Scarf Latios, lol. Now, I'm waiting for some confirmation on its ability.
6) Encore Blacephalon!
 

Perish Song

Alright.
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Going to quickly talk about both Calyrex forms and why they are bullshit.

Calyrex-Ice

This shit comes with an incredible 100/150/130 bulk along with a 165 Base attack, further enhanced by Moxie. Its Speed tier is quite bad with 30, but it learns Trick Room and holds enough coverage to threaten a large number of types single-handedly. Its absurd bulk makes utilizing Trick Room relatively safe as not a lot of Pokemon can do more than 50% damage to it, and having incredible bulk and attack under Trick Room means it has flexibility from its item slot, which can be used on items such as Heavy-Duty Boots, to negate hazard weakness. Its STABs can be spammed without any drawbacks, It has a handful of coverage such as Close Combat and can further enhance its bullshit Attack stat with Swords Dance. It's dumb easy to support this Pokemon as Psychic-teams offers a great amount of partners to handle its very limited amount of checks, and in Ice-teams there is an Alolan Ninetails to provide Veil support, making it much more difficult to handle with the teammates that can also provide exceptional Firepower, from Pokemon such as Galarian Darmanitan, Weavile, and Mamoswine. Overall this Pokemon is bullshit and needs to go.

Calyrex-Shadow

This thing is basically counterpart of the Calyrex-Ice. The 165 base attack translates into 165 special attack for this Pokemon, and all that bulk has turned into 150 base speed. This is by no means manageable, and it forces to reveal your scarfer so early on to attempt at revenge killing to avoid a potential snowballing. A Pokemon that holds a great/spammable STAB combination without any drawbacks on two types that can support it excellently makes it a perfect Pokemon. Its ridiculous speed stat makes it hard to revenge kill, it holds a respectable bulk to endure some of the priority and it gets harder as it claims kill provides a perfect ground to snowballing. Ban this shit too
 
Been pretty disappointed with Eleki before noticing that for all its movepool woes it has all the tools it needs to do the job as a competent screens setter for Electric.

Regieleki @ Light Clay
4 HP/252 SpA/252 SpE.
Electroball/Thunderbolt
Light Screen
Reflect
Explosion

Pretty similar in concept to the old Electrode support sets, just with 200 Speed (548 fully invested, outspeeds 110 scarfers) and decent offensive output in Transistor Electric STAB. Choice of Electroball vs. Thunderbolt will likely to shake out to whoever the common leads end up being. It's not much, but should at least be an option on offensive builds. You could also run a Screens Attacker build with Rising Voltage to take advantage of the Transistor boost which turns Eleki into a quasi-Vish.


Ghost's Spectrier is likewise flattened by its complete lack of movepool and desperately wants Aura Sphere or Focus Blast:

Spectrier @ Life Orb
Grim Neigh
4 HP/252 SpA/252 SpE
Shadow Ball
Uproar
Nasty Plot
Taunt

Despite its stat spread it simply has less to offer than does Gengar, which boasts all the relevant coverage moves in Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam/Thunderbolt as well as the critical utility of being the only decent hazard control Ghost gets (Toxic Spikes.) Having to rely on a mediocre lock-in move for coverage is pretty bad as well.

Blace is not relevant to the conversation here as its niche as Bisharp and Steel killer is fairly untouchable, and it slots in perfectly for Chandelure with little issue.

Going to quickly talk about both Calyrex forms and why they are bullshit.

Calyrex-Ice

This shit comes with an incredible 100/150/130 bulk along with a 165 Base attack, further enhanced by Moxie. Its Speed tier is quite bad with 30, but it learns Trick Room and holds enough coverage to threaten a large number of types single-handedly. Its absurd bulk makes utilizing Trick Room relatively safe as not a lot of Pokemon can do more than 50% damage to it, and having incredible bulk and attack under Trick Room means it has flexibility from its item slot, which can be used on items such as Heavy-Duty Boots, to negate hazard weakness. Its STABs can be spammed without any drawbacks, It has a handful of coverage such as Close Combat and can further enhance its bullshit Attack stat with Swords Dance. It's dumb easy to support this Pokemon as Psychic-teams offers a great amount of partners to handle its very limited amount of checks, and in Ice-teams there is an Alolan Ninetails to provide Veil support, making it much more difficult to handle with the teammates that can also provide exceptional Firepower, from Pokemon such as Galarian Darmanitan, Weavile, and Mamoswine. Overall this Pokemon is bullshit and needs to go.
Calyrex-Ice eats Adamant Banded Vish Fishious Rend. It needs to go.
 
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My current thoughts on the monotype meta and the threats who have entered today. I’m not overly impressed by the new tools right off the bat, but I’m very happy to see some key old members returning. These are early first impressions but I’ve been playing around with most types to get a feel for them. I’m trying to take this from a perspective of the weaker types in the tier, which I don’t want to see become irrelevant because they don't have any notable checks or counters to the type, or would be forced to run ones that are only relevant to that mon and very situational.

Melmetal and Kyurem-B I don’t have too much to add, I don’t think the weaker types metagame advanced enough to be able to handle these still.

While Melmetal SpD is not great and can easily be abused by special attackers, so many types are going to even struggle to OHKO it because of it’s massive HP. Especially now that it has a much more reliable defensive backbone on the type. Previously fire coverage could easily tear through steel teams, however with Heatran back the type has an easier time swapping into the fire moves. Not to mention the type already has a plethora of ways to eat up fighting and ground moves with the now 3 part flying types back. I feel some frailer types have to rely on the likes of sash as well to be able to deal with such heavy hitters like this, which is rendered more or less useless because of double iron bash.

Kyurem-B I’m a little more lenient on than I once was, but I still think it’s a little too much for the tier. Especially paired with aurora veil on the ice type bringing its bulk up to pretty impressive levels. Bolt beam coverage has always been great and there's still little that eats it especially while paired with a mold breaker clone so we can’t use things like volt absorb and thick fat. I’ve seen the argument made that sometimes Kyu-b sets up too early and costs the user the game, but I don’t think the player misusing the tool should be an argument of why it’s not too good. On top of that I feel we have regular Kyurem to fall back on, while its certainly doesn’t have the same role I don’t think either type is taking a huge blow to their viability with it going, while overall being a bit healthier for the meta.

I have plenty more reservations with other returning pokemon that are in the tier, but I’m willing to give them time to settle before discussing them in detail.

Now for some more positive thoughts:

I think rock has gotten a lot better, IMO it’s come so far from how it was at the launch of the generation when it had nothing. I think Omastar being back finally gives it a somewhat decent special attacker, one that can be quite formidable too after a shell smash. I’m curious to see if Cradilly is going to see much use as support mon with its access to leech seed and grassy terrain, could be interesting to see it being used to passively heal your team while also weakening the omnipresent EQ. I feel Staka will be a nice late game sweeper with trick room aswell.

I’m probably one of the few people to see that the tapus didn’t get too many crazy skills, while I like fairy as a type, I don’t think theres going to be any great need to look into the tapus with too much thought now. I even think lele has been potentially watered down enough to be manageable in the tier thanks to the weaker terrains and no expanding force. Aswell as that I feel fairy loves its priority so it’s somewhat counter intuitive to be blocking it yourself. Not to mention if you’re running multiple tapus your terrains will be a bit scrambled anyway.

Regieleki is one of the funnest mons I’ve used in the tier in quite some time, tho unfortunately it’s move pool is more of a move puddle. That said, a spinner for the type that isn’t Morepeko is quite nice, considering in terrain it’s rising voltage boosted by transistor blows most anything that doesn't resist it away (and then some that it does) however I think the electric type overall seriously struggles with the lack of HP this gen, finding it hard to counter the new ground types that have entered, especially ones that are neutral to grass such as Zygarde and Landos.

Finally, I’m a little disappointed with the birds, I expected more from them. I think the only one making a significant impact on it’s types will be Zapdos. It’s new signature move thunderous kick seems like it’s going to be a great move for breaking through walls, where previously we may have to rely on spamming CC which offers that immediate bit more power, TK guaranteed defense drop is going to be nice for breaking through some physical walls and potentially now allow pokemon to swap in and eat 2 hits. Could see it getting some good use against poison types like pex and amoongus which fighting and to some extent flying can struggle with. Quick calc of hitting a pex with BB after a defense drop, obviously the Zapdos is going to take heavy recoil for this and has no roost to back it up I still think its going to be great for breaking walls.

252 Atk Life Orb Zapdos Brave Bird vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 199-235 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Zapdos Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 491-580 (113.9 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Havens

ANARCHY!
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Just stopping by to paint my small thoughts on what we got over the last 15 hours. Some of these are hot takes, feel free to agree/disagree as you will.

:magearna:- nothing's changed since it's ban, SGCM + KissPower sets still have no reliable, defensive counterplay, and there's so many things this can do it's not even worth considering to try and fight it w/o a better type matchup.
Both Calyrex-Horses - actually the worst things I've ever had to play against

:kartana:- Some types just don't have counterplay still.
:pheromosa:- Deoxys-Attack, but with great offensive stats and moves on both the physical and special side. Has CC and Triple Axel now to balance out how great Bug/Fighting/Ice coverage is.
:genesect:- Great offensive pivot, revenge killer, and AoA in general with so much set versatility.
:Tapu Lele:- Still great; though w/o EF it's not as great as it can be, but with Extender you wouldn't have a reason to use a Psychic move besides EF on every other mon.
:Zygarde:- Tarrows with this thing's bulk is gonna be a doozy, but that being said I think just base Zygarde is unhealthy; Zydog should be fine in theory
:Blaziken:- Snowballs way too easily with SD sets.
:Melmetal: - More counterplay was released yes, but it's on more of the same type of team; CB + DIB is still 2hkoing most things and nothing is immediately OHKOing it back.

:Tapu Koko:- Elec's staple setter, Alolachu's best friend, and a great Dragon check. Like Lele, not being able to use RV is upsetting, but 8 turns of terrain more than make up for it, especially when every other teammate has RV anyway.
:Tapu Fini:- Really just is better than Primarina in every way. Shame it doesn't have FlipTurn, but Draining Kiss with better bulk, speed, and utility really puts Primarina out of business on both types.
:Tapu Bulu:- No Grassy Glide or Play Rough is painful, but CC is a much better Steel coverage; it'll be ok.
:Tornadus-Therian: + Base - Neat! It's already a great, well-rounded mon, but HDB existing makes this thing many times better as both utility and a pivot, not to mention receiving Nasty Plot to be a fast breaker too.
:Thundurus-Therian: + Base - not as able a breaker w/o Z-moves, but HDB is a great substitute item.
:Landorus-Therian: + Base - Lando is Lando. Flying's back on the map.
:Celesteela: - to reiterate, Flying's back on the map.
:Kyurem-Black:- DD sets are back; still a bit of a one-trick in my mind. Relies too much on DD for breaking but it's still powerful. This might stay.
:Zapdos: + Galar Form - HDB on Regular Zapdos is great; having Hurricane is even better. Galar Zapdos is sure to be used on Fighting and swapped over Hawlucha as a breaker and a pivot, with decent coverage to boot. Honestly, you might see both interchangeable on Flying.
:Victini:- Welcome back comrade.
:Urshifu:- Urshifu Rapid has more counterplay on both sides, but having Damp Rock around for now with a multi-hit, auto-crit move is a bit scary to think about.
:Naganadel:- Interesting. Dragon/Fire/Poison coverage is cool, but it can't blow back everything. Harder hitting priority and faster speed tiers exist as well, meaning it can't snowball as easily. Getting Spikes and Tspikes is also interesting, since Rocks have fallen out of favor a bit with HDB being so popular. Lead Naganadel might also be useful, but NP or Specs sets sound safe.
:Garchomp:- Much needed, but with everything running HDB, Rocks aren't as necessary.
:Latias:- Much needed against Poison-types. No Pursuit this gen is powerful, but as a scarfer 110 isn't a great speed tier considering Pult, Zeraora, and such. A support role seems better suited to Latias this gen on paper. (Hwish, Defog)
:Latios:- Same boat as Latias, but with better breaking power. Might just become a hard hitting, specs user.
:Dragonite:- HDB + Multiscale is really convenient. Lati's not being the premier speed tier for dragon means that they can perhaps forego being the defogger; maybe a bulky Dnite will do. DD + HDB sets would also work as a substitute for a Z-Move.
:Crobat:- HDB; the speed isn't as needed this time around bc no Mega Gallade, but the Ground Immunity will always be appreciated.
:Heatran:- necessitated with Fire being very amazing in the DLC previous. Also having Magma Storm in a gen where Pursuit trapping is non-existant could mean that Heatran's value might rise too.

:Raikou:- Scald and Aura Sphere without being event locked? I'm on board.
:Entei:- Sacred Fire without being event locked? I'm on board.
:Suicune:- Ah yes, the bulk is back.
:Azelf:- Offensively, pretty cool, but just hard to fit.
:Articuno: + Galar Form - HDB
:Moltres: + Galar Form - HDB
:Slowking:-Galar - for Psychic, pretty good! Good SpDef tank, TSpikes remover, and it's sig move is great to check or wear down more defensive mons/Sub users such as Suicune/Salazzle/Zapdos.
:Buzzwole:- has CC for STAB, can see it commonly traded out for Hera on Bug.
:Nihilego:- Revenge Killing for Rock and Poison, but without HP Ground/Flying is going to be rough.
:Blacephalon:- You can do stuff with this given no Pursuit, but no HP or Scorching Sands is a letdown
:Stakataka:- Pretty Slow, sparsely usable.
:Cradily:- Grass with a Fire "answer".
:Aerodactyl:- Would still be a nice lead on Flying.
:Omastar:- Shell Smash + Air Balloon was pretty good on Rock last gen; imagine it's more of the same here.
:Armaldo:- HDB; Bug could use some hazard removal rn.
:Nidoking:- LO + Sheer Force
:Nidoqueen:- LO + Sheer Force
:Salamence:- Outclassed, but not useless; Kyurem, Naga, Lati's, Pult, among others existing make it seem worse than what it is.
:Swampert:- Rocks without Seismitoad, with Flip Turn to pivot; It's probably replacing Seis/Gastro.
:Volcanion:- HDB, pretty interesting situation with this thing with it's current movepool. Could see it pop up here and there but needs some time to settle in.
:Diancie:- Diamond Storm + Body Press is interesting. Not being able to Mega is what really makes this upsetting, because Physical Diancie with Play Rough/Diamond Storm or a special set with CM Mystical Fire/Stored Power would've been very cool to see.
:Cresselia:- Nothing's changed; still bulky. Might be usable on some cheese.
:Zygarde-10:- Tarrows is broken, but might be ok if it's just limited to Zydog. so much more can take a Tarrows well and kill it, or revenge kill it outright.
Regieleki - Terrifying in Electric terrain, but not much elsewhere. Only having STAB to really rely on is a tad bit of a setback.
:Xurkitree: - In the same boat as Regieleki, but with Energy Ball. Without Tail Glow it really can't get anywhere.
Glastrier - hard to kill, and great coverage moves, but purely Ice. When you look at its stats then look at what Steel, Water, Fire, Rock, Bug, Psychic, Poison, and other types are doing, it pales in comparison. That, and Kyurem-B/Darm are already breaking things left and right.

:Guzzlord: - outclassed
:Uxie:- psychic doesn't need screens
:Mesprit:- just a worse Azelf
:Arctovish: Slush Rush - outclassed
:Arctozolt: Slush Rush - outclassed
Regidrago - outclassed
Spectrier - deadass I don't get what people see in this. When you look past the stats it has 2 coverage moves tops.
Calyrex - literally a worse Celebi

As a special mention, we should probably have an in-depth conversation on Smooth Rock, Damp Rock and Terrain Extender; the latter one being the most important one of all. Terrain Extender was fine in IoA, but with the Tapu's I'm not so sure. With neither of the offending Tapu's not getting EF/RV, both of them offer so much more value than what we've dealt with in Indeedee/Pinch over the course of about a year. My thought process is that either they go or it goes, but not both because the metagame until that point has encountered no such discrepancies with them, but we'll see.
 

Chaitanya

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Monotype Leader
R1 of Quickbans:

Council has voted unanimously to ban Power construct(which should've been banned earlier oops) and Calyrex-Shadow. Tagging The Immortal to implement, Thanks!

Calyrex-Shadow has been dominating the Monotype metagame ever since it was released. Amazing offensive stats coupled with what is an essentially special Moxie allows it to easily broom many teams. Its coverage may be lacking, but having access to a powerful Ghost STAB in Astral Barrage fixes this tremendously by allowing it to hit a majority of the metagame for super effective or neutral damage when paired with Psyshock. In addition to this, it bulkier Pokemon like Blissey and Celesteela are easily handled by Nasty Plot.


More bans coming soon, lot of things being thrown around which we're getting to. Expect a bigger wave in a few days..
 
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Kris

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R1 of Quickbans:

Council has voted unanimously to ban Power construct(which should've been banned earlier oops) and Calyrex-Shadow. Tagging The Immortal to implement, Thanks!

More bans coming soon, lot of things being thrown around which we're getting to. Expect a bigger wave in a few days..
power construct was already banned on ps, idk if it was bad communication on PS's end or what but yeah
 
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Namranan

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Making a visual list of mons added (including unbans for now) because its annoying having to go back and forth between multiple forums.

Bug - :Genesect: :Pheromosa: :Buzzwole: :Armaldo:

Dark - :Moltres: (Galar) :Guzzlord: :Absol: :Spiritomb:

Dragon - :Naganadel: :Latios: :Latias: :Garchomp: :Salamence: :Altaria: :Dragonite: :Zygarde: :Guzzlord: :Kyurem-black: :Tyrantrum: (Regidraco)

Electric - :Tapu Koko: :Xurkitree: :Electivire: :Raikou: :Thundurus-Therian: :Thundurus: (Regieleki)

Fairy - :Tapu Koko: :Tapu Bulu: :Tapu Fini: :Tapu Lele: :Diancie: :Magearna: :Carbink:

Fighting - :Pheromosa: :Buzzwole: :Blaziken: :Zapdos: (galar) :Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:

Fire - :Blaziken: :Blacephalon: :Victini: :Magmortar: :Moltres: :Entei: :Volcanion: :Heatran:

Flying - :Moltres: + Galar :Zapdos: + Galar :Articuno: + Galar :Crobat: :Aerodactyl: :Celesteela: :Archeops: :Landorus: :Landorus-therian: :Tornadus: :Tornadus-therian: :Thundurus: :Thundurus-therian: :Altaria: :Dragonite:

Ghost - :Blacephalon: :Spiritomb: (Spectrier)

Grass - :Kartana: :Sceptile: :Cradily: :Tapu Bulu: (Calyrex)

Ground - :Nidoking: :Nidoqueen: :Garchomp: :Landorus: :Landorus-Therian: :Zygarde: :Swampert: (Smooth Rock)

Ice - :Aurorus: :Regice: :Cryogonal: :Walrein: :Articuno: :Jynx: :Kyurem-black: (Glastrier) + Fusion

Normal - :Audino: :Regigigas:

Poison - :Nidoking: :nidoqueen: :Nihilego: :Crobat: :Naganadel: :Slowking: (Galar)

Psychic - :Articuno: (Galar) :Victini: :Cresselia: :Tapu Lele: :metagross: :jynx: :Uxie: :Mesprit: :Azelf: :Latios: :Latias: :Slowking: (Galar) Calyrex + Ice Fusion

Rock - :Cradily: :Archeops: :Armaldo: :Stakataka: :Tyrantrum: :Aggron: :Relicanth: :Kabutops: :Omastar: :Regirock: :Aurorus: :Diancie: :Carbink: :Carracosta: (Smooth rock)

Steel - :Heatran: :Registeel: :Aggron: :Metagross: :Genesect: :Celesteela: :Stakataka: :Melmetal: :Magearna: :Kartana:

Water - :Swampert: :Tapu fini: :Volcanion: :Carracosta: :Walrein: :Suicune: :Relicanth: :Omastar: :Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: (Damp Rock)

I'll post my thoughts on things later
 
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Decem

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Monotype Leader
:ss/zygarde:
The Monotype council has also decided to include Zygarde-50% in the first wave of quickbans alongside Calyrex-Shadow.
Zygarde has incredible potential to snowball with solid bulk, Dragon dance, and an extremely uncompetitive move in Thousand arrows, invalidating several types on it's own. It faces the same issues as it did in SM Monotype; Thousand Arrows removing Ground immunities makes it easily spammable against types like Flying, Steel, Electric, Fire, and Water. The lack of Hidden Power ice has made it even more impossible to check.


We've also voted on both Calyrex-Ice and Zygarde-10%. Neither have reached the threshold in order to be quickbanned, but we'll be keeping an eye on both aspects as the metagame progresses and potentially revisit them both in a later quickban round.
 
my thoughts on some current mons:

1603541007864.png
- still broken as it was in day one, unless you're running monosteel the dual dance set just rips through everyone. even then, if you're unlucky enough that you opponent brings specs, it still just chips with volt switch or nuke with aura sphere

ice horse - just slap trick room on it lol

1603541184045.png
- glad to see this thing go, thousand arrows is too broken on it. zydog is interesting though, since it's not really as effective of a sweeper because it actually dies to priority and can't set up too easily. still something to look out for though. my fave set atm is the banded one.

regieleki - specs voltage or eball actually hurts like hell esp under terrain, and this mon is so fun to use unless they have grounds. screens + explosion is fun too, prevents defog and allows you to revenge kill with koko or raichu since most defoggers are flying type anyway

1603541387436.png
- i feel like it's more manageable now, since it lost z-draco which made it snowball in the first place, and poison in general is a lot weaker with the loss of venugod (rip my favorite mon and type) and alomuk. haven't played enough dragon to judge it there though

1603541519342.png
- i love both sub bu sets and band sets, this mon is just great in general. or maybe i just have a bias on bulky hard hitters lol

1603541571940.png
- i've been using gravity for now but i haven't really had the chance it to use it too much. gravity/ep/sludge/focus sounds great on paper, but i want to experiment running weather ball or knock of in sand, as well as cm or rp sets
 
Hello everyone, just here to post some quick thoughts on some of the mons running around:

Calyrex Ice - Absolutely disgusting especially when paired up with Aurora Veil/Screen support. Just like its Shadow form, I think it deserves to be quick banned sooner rather than later. Interesting fact though is that Avalugg walls this thing completely even with its ability boost so thats fun.

Kyurem Black - With the release of new and old mons, Kyurem Black is checked and countered more easily than it did earlier this generation. I think now it is at a good state to not warrant it to be banned again, but honestly with the way everything is, I would want to see it AFTER everything absurd gets banned.

Articuno - An interesting development as Articuno with HDB is now a viable pick to run alongside Avalugg on Balanced Ice. Freeze-Dry and Hurricane gives it good offensive presence on Ice, and Defog gives it free hazard removal that isnt negated from ghost types. Not to mention it has its on recovery in Roost.

Nagandel - Unsure of my position on Nagandel. I personally feel like Nagandel's power has drastically lowered to the point that it is not unhealthy, but many people still view this pokemon as a devastating monster. While its still here though, it helps dragon and poison a lot with its amazing coverage and excellent offensive stats.

Magerna - Nothing has changed since the last time this pokemon was banned. Its Calm mind, Shift Gear, draining kiss and stored power set still has little to no counter play. The only time I see the pokemon not be a threat was when its team was up against a terrible MU anyway like fire.

Melmetal - Same with Magerna, absolutely nothing has changed since it was banned. It still has the offensive presence to OHKO/2HKO everything it goes up against and its insane bulk allows it to talk multiple super effective hits. By the time you kill it, it has already taken out a chunk of your team.

Genesect - Repeat the same talking points for Magerna and Melmetal. Genesects offensive presence and coverage is simply just too good and even invalidates some types and matchups. This alongside the last two pokemon should be quickbanned immediately in my opinion.

Kartana - A very strong pokemon with its power still invalidates types and matchups.

Blazeiken - Speed boost Blazeiken is still too good. There is hardly anything that can stop its Swords dance set allowing it snowball with nothing the opponent can do.

Pheromosa - I don't know what Gamefreak was thinking, but they gave this thing close combat and triple axel. With its stats similar to deoxys attack, there is really nothing that can check this thing. Especially when it starts rolling.

The Genies - A wonderful addition especially for flying. Tornadus - T is not as strong as everyone was expecting during the datamine speculation period, but its a addition to be welcomed.

Tapus - Great on all their respective types. I do have my concerns that Lele is maybe too powerful, but I wanna see.
 
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+
(Calyrex-Ice Rider)
This has to go imo. Calyrex has way too much support on both Ice- and Psychic-teams; Ice having Aurora Veil from Alolan Ninetales and Psychic having Healing Wish Pokemon like Hatterene and Jirachi that literally brings it back to health to threaten the opposing team. This isn't our strongest hitting mon (Kart and Kyurem being above this) but 165 ATK + 130 Power Ice-STAB moves pretty much makes this one of the best, if not the best offensive FAT Pokemon running around right now. This is no where NEAR healthy, please do not underestimate this just because its part Ice. Steel(with Melmetal) and Fire are like the only things I can see that can effectively 'cteam' this.​
 

Regieleki-Check/Counter Analysis​
vs. (insert typing)​
checks/counters​
explanation​
vs. (insert typing)​
checks/counters​
explanation​
Fire​
:rotom-heat: :marowak-alola: + :heatran: :blaziken:
Rotom-Heat resists Electric-type attacks and isn't affected by the multiplier from terrain moves while A-Wak is immune to Electric-attacks completely. Regi does have access to Ancient Power so I see adding Heatran/Blaziken useful here.​
Fairy​
:tapu-bulu: :klefki: :mimikyu:
Screens weakens damage from Klefki, Bulu changes terrain and Mimi can revenge thanks to Disguise.​
Grass​
:appletun: [Grassy Terrain] :rotom-mow:
Appletun and Rotom-C are the top checks to this thanks to Appletun's Dragon-typing and Rotom-C's Electric-typing and Levitate. Grassy Terrain also takes away the terrain set by the opposing team.​
Rock​
:cradily: [Sand Stream] :rhyperior:
Cradily has nice SpD and Rock mons SpD is boosted by Sand​
Water​
:swampert: :gastrodon: :kingdra: :barraskewda: :seismitoad: :crawdaunt: :quagsire: :azumarill: :lanturn:
General Electric-type immunities completely wall Regieleki such as Swampert, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Seismitoad, and Lanturn. Azumarill and Crawdaunt can KO this in rain paired with Choice Band while +Spe Kingdra and Barra outspeeds inside of Rain.​
Ice​
:mamoswine: :piloswine:
Both arent bothered by Electric- or Rock-type coverage.​
Ground​
:wooper:
Everything​
Poison​
:naganadel: :nidoking: :nidoqueen:
Nidos are immune while Nagandel can offensively check this.​
Fighting​
:virizion:
Virizion still takes 50% from switchin and Fighting in general has to deal with Tapu Koko + Alolan Raichu already. I don't see Fighting winning that matchup unless Virizion ends up CMing beforehand.​
Psychic​
:latios: :latias: :celebi: [Psychic Terrain]​
Latis + Celebi are resistant to Electric moves and Psychic Terrain can change eterrain.​
Bug​
:vikavolt::pheromosa:
idt no one is using vikavolt but scarf pheromsa can help vs this​
Ghost​
:dragapult: :mimikyu:
Scarf Dragapult; mimi revenges with disguise.​
Normal​
:diggersby:
Diggersby is the only Electric-immunity but lets be honest, Band Zeraora vs Normal seems pretty one sided if you ask me. SD Diggersby can probably be used a bit more.​
Dragon​
:deino:
Dragon-types​
Steel​
:excadrill:
Excadrill is needed on Steel-teams (which should make sense if you plan on not getting Electric spammed hello..) it is trapped by Zone soo SD + Spin Excadrill is still nice.​
Electric​
:toxel:
Electric-types​
Flying​
:landorus: :landorus-therian: :thundurus-therian:
Both Landorus forms aren't bothered by its sets which Thundy-T is just hit by Ancient Power.​
Dark​
:krookodile: :tyranitar: :hydreigon:
Krook is not affected, ttar is 2hkod, hydrei is 3hkod (making roost more of a glue on this)​
With this chart, I've analyzed that Bug and Fighting will have some difficulties with Regieleki spamming Electric-type moves unless it has something niche like Vikavolt or hella invested Virizion. Even with Max HP VIrizion still gets 2HKOd by this (66+44.25) is the maximum calc for non CM then after a CM. Then I tested it creeping just Mimikyu with 321 Speed with 60 SpD (41.84999+62.849999). Maybe Virizion is a possible explorable options with Synthesis / CM / Giga / FB for the Electric-mu as a whole, but the issue is dealing with Zapdos probably, especially the variants that tend to run either Hurricane or Toxic. That's 2/18 typings, some people feel like its MU-fish and some thinks its straight up broken. I feel like before we call this broken, we should wait for checks/counters like these to possibly settle in bar for Bug and Fighting.
1.) How do you feel about Regieleki? Do you think its overrated or just straight up broken?
 
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I have no idea how people can think that Calyrex-Ice is anything near the cancer that steel currently is. Heatran / Aegislash / Magearna / Genesect / Kartana / Whatever is so brain dead and annoying to play against and pretty much unwinnable unless you outplay your opponent at every move. If you want to quickban anything start with banning Genesect, Kartana and Magearna.
 
I have no idea how people can think that Calyrex-Ice is anything near the cancer that steel currently is. Heatran / Aegislash / Magearna / Genesect / Kartana / Whatever is so brain dead and annoying to play against and pretty much unwinnable unless you outplay your opponent at every move. If you want to quickban anything start with banning Genesect, Kartana and Magearna.
Those are all Steel types though. Out of All types, Calyrex's only tough matchup is Steel Types according to your logic. The other types will have an extremely hard time with it. The Big issue with it is that its so bulky and access to Moxie whenever it knocks out makes extremely difficulty to handle defensively. Not to mention that its an extremely good abuser of Weakness Policy as well. And that's not taking in Dual Screens support from Alolan Ninetales and other setters. Trick Room turns the tide against offense, so its speed isn't even a hindrance. Defensive answers like Heatran, Slowbro, and Aegislash can be blown part by Close Combat, Crunch, and Earthquake. Slowbro's is Psychic's answer to Calyrex? Crunch blows it away, and suddenly Psychic is doomed. Honestly, I don't think there is a really a hard answer for Calyrex. It has all coverage and tools to blow apart its so called "counters". I'm definitely on Quickban side.
 
Those are all Steel types though. Out of All types, Calyrex's only tough matchup is Steel Types according to your logic. The other types will have an extremely hard time with it. The Big issue with it is that its so bulky and access to Moxie whenever it knocks out makes extremely difficulty to handle defensively. Not to mention that its an extremely good abuser of Weakness Policy as well. And that's not taking in Dual Screens support from Alolan Ninetales and other setters. Trick Room turns the tide against offense, so its speed isn't even a hindrance. Defensive answers like Heatran, Slowbro, and Aegislash can be blown part by Close Combat, Crunch, and Earthquake. Slowbro's is Psychic's answer to Calyrex? Crunch blows it away, and suddenly Psychic is doomed. Honestly, I don't think there is a really a hard answer for Calyrex. It has all coverage and tools to blow apart its so called "counters". I'm definitely on Quickban side.
It doesn't even need TR To work completely either since it has enough bulk to even run an agility set as it does in fact learn Agility, but either way I feel its incredibly broken and toxic on psychic, especially with things such as screens up and stuff, I haven't faced it yet with Screens up so I can't speak from personal experience yet but I found it quite difficult to kill even when using a type that should completely Cteam it in Bug. I can't get an OHKO from 1.5x Hasty Genesect (With 252 in SPA) using flamethrower, it does about 80 and that's not counting the fact its likely just fully invested in hp and attack. Honestly the only way ive seen to beat it is using a bulky mon such as Celesteela (I used a Celesteela with Leech seed and protect stall) to beat it, even then a max hp/defense Celesteela tanks a hit at about 60%, so if you missed Leech seed earlier its a straight 2hko, while another similar steel flying in Corviknight also has a similar hit, as one I ran that had max hp and special defense only took a Glacial Lance at 60% with a bulk up off,


So I do want to point out its unhealthiness but its beatable...but I don't think its bearable due to its great coverage, hell this is me not mentioning it even has swords dance so it can still be a straight up wall breaker, also this version of the Ice Rider I faced like twice (same guy) was adamant with max attack with Leftovers, if it was band it could even be stronger and likely be closer to two shooting Celesteela even with a seed off...
 
what's everyone's thoughts on
? specs shadow ball just absolutely runs through anything that's not dark or normal, and even then resists easily get 2hko'd. i've been running this with spikes froslass on monoghost and it's been a blast
 
what's everyone's thoughts on
? specs shadow ball just absolutely runs through anything that's not dark or normal, and even then resists easily get 2hko'd. i've been running this with spikes froslass on monoghost and it's been a blast
Personally I find it not as broken if you are a type with a resist or neutrality. Its a very big boom or bust mon due to it having only Ghost and Dark coverage

The great part about it is its great SPA but its sort of outclassed by Gengar and Blacephalon (Who got added in the DLC) due to them having much better coverage options (Grass, electric, poison, Poison, Fire, etc) which is much better than Ghost and Dark who's coverages overlap severely

I think the only real non niche use I see for it would be on mono threat ghost since that's the whole "Counterteaming your own type" shtick, and its faster than the previously mentioned Gengar and Blacephalon... but even then that niche in Monothreat isn't helpful when its outsped by prob the best scarfer on mono threat ghost in Dragapult.

in all I think its just not up to par with its competition in Drag, Gengar and Blacephalon

Edit- So yeah I forgot to actually approach the topic, so yeah a lot of types are fine with it, but its not really great when you can be easily hardcountered. I think a lot of types though will deal with it with either, Also some types will use stuff like webs, etc to slow it down for a take down (Bug comes to mind for that kind of tactic) Also some assault vest mons, or mons who will be used as a sack (See sash Armaldo or something) can just tank the hit and kill it...
 
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Those are all Steel types though. Out of All types, Calyrex's only tough matchup is Steel Types according to your logic. The other types will have an extremely hard time with it. The Big issue with it is that its so bulky and access to Moxie whenever it knocks out makes extremely difficulty to handle defensively. Not to mention that its an extremely good abuser of Weakness Policy as well. And that's not taking in Dual Screens support from Alolan Ninetales and other setters. Trick Room turns the tide against offense, so its speed isn't even a hindrance. Defensive answers like Heatran, Slowbro, and Aegislash can be blown part by Close Combat, Crunch, and Earthquake. Slowbro's is Psychic's answer to Calyrex? Crunch blows it away, and suddenly Psychic is doomed. Honestly, I don't think there is a really a hard answer for Calyrex. It has all coverage and tools to blow apart its so called "counters". I'm definitely on Quickban side.
Yes, that's the point, Steel is running around with 3, potentially more broken mons all of which are really good on their own right, and all of which can beat entire types on preview unless you massively outplay.

Also:

252+ Atk Jynx Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Jynx Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So it needs a decent amount of chip or LO to 2hko Slowbro, so you can easily switch bro and then Teleport out to Victini which OHKOes without problem (And Crunch is bad outside of just hitting Slowbro / Psychic since most Ghosts are hit harder just with STAB and is weaker that HHP/Zen Headbutt vs Aegislash/Jelicent).
 

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