Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra] (Smooth Rock and Kyurem-B banned, see post #90)

Yes, that's the point, Steel is running around with 3, potentially more broken mons all of which are really good on their own right, and all of which can beat entire types on preview unless you massively outplay.

Also:

252+ Atk Jynx Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Jynx Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So it needs a decent amount of chip or LO to 2hko Slowbro, so you can easily switch bro and then Teleport out to Victini which OHKOes without problem (And Crunch is bad outside of just hitting Slowbro / Psychic since most Ghosts are hit harder just with STAB and is weaker that HHP/Zen Headbutt vs Aegislash/Jelicent).
1603631786263.png

And even if you were to run Jynx no i am not saying its viable in anyway why wouldn't you go the BoltBeam route, you could try like Kyurem-B maybe?
 
I didn't think it necessary to explain it, but no, I didn't actually use Jynx, that's just there for the typing because Carice isn't in the calc at the moment...
ye they need to fix that i thought you were using Crunch Jynx mate..
 

Chaitanya

is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
Monotype Leader
The council has voted to ban Genesect and Calyrex-Ice.

Genesect's unpredictability at preview, and in game with it's incredible coverage has been deemed too much, similar to prior generations. With a base 120 move that doesn't miss, priority, pivoting, and an ability that can boost a plethora of moves, we've decided to ban it, with everyone except Ridley voting ban.
Calyrex - Ice's bulk, and ability to sweep under tr, or even rarer agility sets with screens or veil is too much for the meta. With its double ability, allowing it to boost it's attack after a ko, and preventing any sort of berry to try to stop it, it's excellent signature move which doesn't miss at 130 bp, access to SD, and good coverage to boot, we've unanimously deemed to be unhealthy as well.

Tagging The Immortal to implement, Thanks!


Watchlist: Blaziken, Magearna, Pheromosa, Kartana, Zygarde 10%, Naganadel, Damp/Smooth Rock, Terrain Extender

We'd love to see what you guys think about these mons or anything else you guys find problematic!
 
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- so far I think they're both quite manageable, although damp is much more powerful than smooth, since it gives the power boost, and water has so much more abusers, aside from monoground which only has drill, which isn't super hard to wall. rain + kindgra/barraskewda/crawdaunt is much more fearsome

- nothing really changed, setup sets tear through anything not aegislash, and even then it could only come in so many times. this thing is as busted as before, i think it needs to go
 

AllTerrainVen0moth

Banned deucer.
I just built a team around Caly-Ice (ice team btw) and it fricking destroys everything. It can 2hko / 1hko everything at +2, and it just murders the entire metagame.

EDIT 1: Oh good, caly-ice got banned.
 
So, let's talk about the watchlist...

:blaziken: - I may be the only person in the world that thinks this, but Blaziken has the least snowball potential out of every other mon on this list. There is counterplay for it on every type, whether it be some form of priority or something that can wall/haze/phase it. More importantly, the counterplay is not centralizing meaning you don't need to put more than needed into your team just to beat it. Therefore, I think Blaziken should stay for the time being. I would break this down further but I'm just tryna get some discussion going so maybe someone else will do so.

:magearna: - Magearna has not changed from pre-dlc. Draining Kiss + Stored Power provides it recovery and something hard hitting after a shift gear and calm mind. But that is not the only set, you can see boltbeam, aura sphere, etc. Magearna has the greatest snowball potential on this list as I've seen wipe through every type and that's why it needs to go.

:pheromosa: - I have only used this a handful of times and have seen it be used a handful of times, and one thing I can say for sure is that it has a LOT of different sets. Specs, Scarf, Quiver Dance, Band, you name it. Despite its extreme frailness, the variety of sets and damage output of this UB may be the reason it goes and I fully support that.

:kartana: - There are several arguments for and against this mon that were made way back in early SM mono. The argument against it was that it alone was making steel too dominant in the metagame, and it is showing similar dominance to back then, with different circumstances. Kartana has a supporting cast of Heatran, Magearna (as of rn), Melmetal, Aegislash, Corviknight, Celesteela, etc. so it is very hard to say that Kartana alone is the problem here. I am not sure where to make my stance on this quite yet as I've seen it go right through teams but also have seen it not be so great, so I would like to hear from others on this one too.

:zygarde-10%: - This is another of the no bans on this list from me. Zydog is kinda hard to fit on dragon but would probably be A tier on ground in terms of viability. It is so frail to the point where you can only run CB making it relatively predictable unlike the other mons on this list with a multitude of sets, but it's fast and has thousand arrows, so it's definitely worthwhile. I think it is going to stay since Zygarde 50% is gone.

:naganadel: - Practically every time I've come up against Naga it has swept me. However, I have also seen go down with ease. Both sides of the argument make sense here but I think it's snowball potential exceeds that of Blaziken's which means it will probably go.

:damp_rock: - Rain is more prevalent than ever now having 8 turns. And swift swimmers really appreciate that, giving HO a lot of dominance. But, Water teams are not the only place where you might find this being used. Having rain on Flying teams means you can be 100% accurate with hurricane on tornadus-t and mantine and 100% accurate with thunder on thundy-t, making the abusers go past just swift swim. That's why I personally see it getting banned.

:smooth_rock: - Let's be real here, the only abuser of this is Excadrill, and our friend Exca has needed extra sand turns for years now. I am definitely supporting keeping smooth rock in.

:terrain_extender: - The Tapus are the main culprits of this one, especially Koko. I have not seen enough Fairy to determine how the other Tapus utilize it but I have seen 8 turns of electric terrain on electric teams, and having that support is extremely beneficial. The Tapus, thankfully, don't get their respective terrain moves which makes this into a very similar situation as pre-dlc, meaning terrain extender should be staying.
 
:damp-rock:
Piggybacking on what adjustment's said about Torndadus inside of rain, Pelipper sets rain with Damp Rock and U-turns out(1 turn), Tornadus comes in and Nasty Plots without damage from hazards thanks to HDB on passive Pokemon (1 turn) and then have a 110 BP STAB move Spammed for 5-6 turns. Tornadus is not the only thing that abuses rain, but you also have Water-type Pokemon and Thundurus(which gets free Thunders basically). Now, Tornadus probably can get KO'd by a Ice- or Electric-type scarfer but every type does not have the tools to do that and I am more leniet towards the ban side of this argument.
:terrain-extender:
Looking at all the Terrain setters: Rillaboom, Indeedee, Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, and Tapu Lele, I really only can see the Grass-types running this. Grass does not seem like one of the best types to run right now and I find extender pretty healthy based off DLC1. On Electric-teams, Alolan Raichu lacks its Z-crystal and has a hard time setting up Nasty Plot in many situations. "Regieleki in Electric Terrain is stupid" and I've listed checks/counters before and approaching Terrain Extender because of that does not seem optimal as Tapu Koko runs Choice Specs(I hope on many teams still) and it can just bring eterrain and pivot Eleki back in later in the match. So looking at Terrain Extender because of these 2 reasons does not seem amazing in terms of Electric. Psychic Terrain for 8 turns does nullify priority-based moves but we've had terrain extender as an option since Indeedee was here. Psychic still seems like one of those weird options to run while Tapu Fini requires Leftovers for longevity. Terrains were nerfed and now are defoggable so that can also be added to this argument, my heart and sole says do not ban.
:zygarde-10%:
Zydog is more fragile than Zygarde-50% and I need to see this more before going for a final conclusion. Thousand Arrows does seem threatening towards Electric- and Flying-teams and this getting to +2 is a little hard to picture. So abstaining this seems the way to go before jumping to a conclusion.
:pheromosa: :magearna: :kyurem-black:
All three of these Pokemon have the capabilities to boost its attacking stats and unleash with its BoltBeam coverage. Pheromosa is similar to Genesect, the sets can be somewhat unexpected Specs/Band/Scarf/HDB/QD but in terms of Bug and Fighting, Scarf seems the way to go as it helps with the Electric-rock Regieleki. I do feel like this can setup on chipped Pokemon but I am leniet for ban due to it having a plethora.

Magearna has versatile sets aswell Boltbeam along with Stored + Draining. I do feel like there are more Pokemon than DLC 1 but that does not change what this Pokemon does and I am going for ban.

Kyurem-Black will forever be in the back of my head because piggybacking on Magearna, it does the exact same thing. Duraludon + Alolan Ninetales are still here to set Screens for this thing and setup with its access to boltbeam coverage. Flying-teams may have gotten Celesteela, but Heavy Slam is like a 0.4% roll to break its sub, so why would they not just invest into more HP so that would not happen. It sets up on the same Pokemon that is still here and Ground-, Electric-, Water-, Grass-, Flying-, Bug-, Poison-, and every type that was named "irrelevant" due to this basically. This needs to be brung up in the future and many experienced players voted ban in the suspect, but for now, I am going for do not ban, because I feel like this is a 3rd tier thing to look at.
 
Just some thoughts on a few of the mons from the watchlist I know more about.

While this thing does have snowball potential, It is easy enough to stop. Flare Blitz kills itself. Its base Speed stat is only ok, and it doesn't want to run protect. It doesn't have great defense and dies to priority a lot. I like running Sash sets and it almost always activates because of its poor bulk and typing. Blaziken is definitely good, but manageable.

Pheromosa has great snowball potential, but similar to Blaziken, gets beat by Priority. However if you don't have priority it sweeps many a time. An amazing movepool, and the addition of Triple Axel help it to beat the abundance of Flying types available now that might try to kill with a 4x Flying move. The abundance of sets it can run is great too. It has pathetic bulk but is still very dangerous.

ZyDog is much easier to handle than 50%. while Thousand Arrows are still dangerous, Its not as dangerous coming a defensive behemoth as it is from a speedy, lower bulk mon. With the return of an abundance of other Dragon types, its kinda hard to fit onto Dragon teams, as well as being slightly easier to counter. Probably leaning towards keeping this dog.
 
So, let's talk about the watchlist...

:blaziken: - I may be the only person in the world that thinks this, but Blaziken has the least snowball potential out of every other mon on this list. There is counterplay for it on every type, whether it be some form of priority or something that can wall/haze/phase it. More importantly, the counterplay is not centralizing meaning you don't need to put more than needed into your team just to beat it. Therefore, I think Blaziken should stay for the time being. I would break this down further but I'm just tryna get some discussion going so maybe someone else will do so.

:magearna: - Magearna has not changed from pre-dlc. Draining Kiss + Stored Power provides it recovery and something hard hitting after a shift gear and calm mind. But that is not the only set, you can see boltbeam, aura sphere, etc. Magearna has the greatest snowball potential on this list as I've seen wipe through every type and that's why it needs to go.

:pheromosa: - I have only used this a handful of times and have seen it be used a handful of times, and one thing I can say for sure is that it has a LOT of different sets. Specs, Scarf, Quiver Dance, Band, you name it. Despite its extreme frailness, the variety of sets and damage output of this UB may be the reason it goes and I fully support that.

:kartana: - There are several arguments for and against this mon that were made way back in early SM mono. The argument against it was that it alone was making steel too dominant in the metagame, and it is showing similar dominance to back then, with different circumstances. Kartana has a supporting cast of Heatran, Magearna (as of rn), Melmetal, Aegislash, Corviknight, Celesteela, etc. so it is very hard to say that Kartana alone is the problem here. I am not sure where to make my stance on this quite yet as I've seen it go right through teams but also have seen it not be so great, so I would like to hear from others on this one too.

:zygarde-10%: - This is another of the no bans on this list from me. Zydog is kinda hard to fit on dragon but would probably be A tier on ground in terms of viability. It is so frail to the point where you can only run CB making it relatively predictable unlike the other mons on this list with a multitude of sets, but it's fast and has thousand arrows, so it's definitely worthwhile. I think it is going to stay since Zygarde 50% is gone.

:naganadel: - Practically every time I've come up against Naga it has swept me. However, I have also seen go down with ease. Both sides of the argument make sense here but I think it's snowball potential exceeds that of Blaziken's which means it will probably go.

:damp_rock: - Rain is more prevalent than ever now having 8 turns. And swift swimmers really appreciate that, giving HO a lot of dominance. But, Water teams are not the only place where you might find this being used. Having rain on Flying teams means you can be 100% accurate with hurricane on tornadus-t and mantine and 100% accurate with thunder on thundy-t, making the abusers go past just swift swim. That's why I personally see it getting banned.

:smooth_rock: - Let's be real here, the only abuser of this is Excadrill, and our friend Exca has needed extra sand turns for years now. I am definitely supporting keeping smooth rock in.

:terrain_extender: - The Tapus are the main culprits of this one, especially Koko. I have not seen enough Fairy to determine how the other Tapus utilize it but I have seen 8 turns of electric terrain on electric teams, and having that support is extremely beneficial. The Tapus, thankfully, don't get their respective terrain moves which makes this into a very similar situation as pre-dlc, meaning terrain extender should be staying.
Thought I'd add my two cents to this even if some of it is getting banned any second now.

1603739748710.png
- It's gotta go. Everyone knows how broken it is, really don't understand why it's not gone yet. Trick room alone on it can sweep entire types, and stored power/draining kiss is just as busted. There's a reason no one likes it in the meta, I don't think any of the new stuff lowers its threat enough to warrant it staying.

1603740005965.png
- This one's tricky, as it definitely has the potential to determine who wins from the start, but it has plenty of weaknesses that I believe keep it from being too out of control. For one, its base speed is quite low, and you need to be running adamant + life orb in order to 2HKO pex with EQ, so it's only going to be hitting 259 speed when it's sent in. It doesn't have room for protect, as it needs either earthquake/knock off in order to deal with mons that shut entire types down, such as the previously mentioned toxapex. Neglecting protect makes it a lot harder for it to safely set up to sweep, it takes tons of recoil from flare blitz/life orb, it dies to any priority, especially after a close combat or recoil. It still gets outsped by quite a bit of the meta without protect. I don't think you need to go out of your way to beat it, but I think we can see how it plays out.

1603740798932.png
- Water just gets better and better. All it needs is pelipper, urshifu rapid strike (which I'm surprised at having not seen much of it being talked about on here), crawdaunt, and a bunch of swift swim abusers to make it arguably the best offense in the current meta. Rain can function perfectly fine and still dominate without damp rock. I think it's got to go.

1603741408566.png
- I think it's safe to say that some types can get completely shut down by this thing with little to nothing they can do to prevent it. Terrain + STAB + Transistor gives rising voltage a base power of 409.5. I think this absurd level of power is best visualized when compared to another powerhouse, dracovish. For reference, fishous rend hits 382.5 base power after factoring in STAB, moving first, and strong jaw. One of the things that balances that enormous power out is the fact that it needs to land first in the turn to double the base power, hence why you see them running around with choice scarves. Regieleki is obviously much much faster than scarf vish, more powerful thanks to the boosts it gets from terrain and its ability, can easily run choice specs to boost that power even further through the roof, and with terrain extender, it's going to have KO'd your whole team by the time terrain goes away. Many of the answers for regieleki that I've seen mentioned previously in this thread do not seem to be able to keep up with its immense power. For example, for fighting, virizion is listed as the only answer for it. Even if I'm running some really weird specially defensive set, it's still going to get 2HKO'd most of the time. That's insane. It's not even going to hit it back hard enough, as you'll be missing out on attack investment due to making it specially defensive, so even earthquake won't reliably kill it. Also, that's the only reason to run virizion at all, and I don't think that types should have to run something unorthodox in order to deal with one mon, where it'll end up being a burden on the rest of its team. Sure, some types may have the tools to handle regieleki, but some have to go far out of their way just to have a small chance against it, which makes me think that it's very unhealthy for the meta, and deserves to get more closely looked at for a ban.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Virizion in Electric Terrain: 183-216 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Virizion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Those are my thoughts on some of the important threats in this meta. Since I only use fighting I more than likely don't know the entirety of what I'm talking about and I don't completely know both sides to each argument, so there's a little disclaimer. I never write anything on here so I'm not too experienced with putting my point out there, but I hope that this offers something new.
 

maroon

under the influence
is a Top Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Going to talk about the watchlist below, my opinions on them, and a bit more!

Blaziken
:ss/blaziken:
Yes, Swords Dance + Speed Boost on Blaziken is still disgusting. If it manages to get a Swords Dance, its snowball ability and just sweep through the opposing team is still too much. Its STAB attacks are supported very nicely by Earthquake or Knock Off, allowing it to take on, say, Toxapex or Alolan Marowak, which otherwise might be able to take on its STABs, make it overbearing.
Ban

Magearna

:ss/magearna:
So I am very acquainted with Steel this generation, having played near 150 games with this type on the ladder since the DLC release. Magearna is still busted. With the insane support of Steel's defense, it just becomes way too easy to set this thing up safely. On top of the defensive resists/immunity they bring, Celesteela and Ferrothorn can provide Leech Seed support, easing the setup just that much more. Its most broken set is the Shift Gear+Calm Mind alongside Draining Kiss+Stored Power. Draining Kiss, while only 50 base power, is supported very well between it being STAB and Megearna's already high special attack. It can snowball very easily; additionally, it also makes Magearna harder to revenge kill as it restores its health.
Ban

Pheromosa
:ss/pheromosa:
I think this thing will be broken when the metagame settles down more, but for now, I haven't seen it put in as much work as I think it will very soon. physical Adamant/Naughty nature Choice Scarf has to be the best set this thing has on both Bug and Fighting, with Close Combat, Triple Axel, or Ice Beam, Throat Chop, and U-turn. It can outpace, and OHKO Regieleki is super important as both types hard lose to that Pokemon under Electric Terrain. Aside from that excellent use of the Pokemon, I think thanks to Beast Boost, it will be too fast for anything to handle, and snowball attack boosts too easily. Will probably be problematic later on.
Potential Ban: This definitely has potential; I want to see it in the metagame after a few more bans.

Kartana
:ss/kartana:
Ah, the paper cut, the airplane, the nuisance, Kartana. Any type that is weak to its STAB attacks or coverage will be very weak to its Choice Scarf set. I personally run Leaf Blade, Smart Strike, Knock Off, and Sacred Sword. This allows me to clean through a variety of types such as Ground (outside of Sand+Band Drill), Water (after a few layers of Spikes+Knock Off Toxapex can't switch-in), Ice (has Avalugg but can be worn down easily by Kartana's teammates), Psychic (since scarf Lati twins can't beat its teammates it easily wins that matchup with Knock Off+Leaf Blade), Ghost (scarf Gengar can be dealt with by many teammates, Choice Scarf Spectrier can probably put in work but has such bad coverage), and Fairy once Klefki is out of the match. While I have been using the Choice Scarf set, I believe Swords Dance can beat many fatter types without as many conditions met. I fully believe this is banworthy and should go asap.
Ban

Zygarde 10%
:ss/zygarde-10%:
This does not present itself as a problem for me right now. I think it is frail enough and doesn't have enough speed to become too difficult to revenge kill. After the metagame has settled with the true brokens out of the way, I think its worth looking at this Pokemon again.
Do not ban: I want to see this in a more balanced metagame before making my final judgments.

Naganadel
:ss/naganadel:
Without z-moves, this is immediately becoming less threatening than it was last gen. However, I do not think the lack of z-moves makes it not problematic. Its high special attack and speed allow it to snowball its speed, access to Nasty Plot, and near-perfect coverage (hits everything for neutral damage bar Heatran); it is too much. Let's dive into that a bit more. Nasty Plot allows its Draco Meteor's to still smash through everything it does neutral damage to, not named Specially Defensive Tyranitar and Blissey/Chansey. Fire Blast compliments this by hitting Steel-types like Celesteela and Ferrothorn, and Sludge Wave rounds them both out by hitting Fairy-type Pokemon such as Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko. On rare occasions, it can also be used to target the Water/Flying matchup by using Thunderbolt>Fire Blast, then becoming 100% impossible for the type to beat it.
Ban

Damp Rock
& Smooth Rock
:damp-rock::smooth-rock:
Weather Rocks are never that healthy, in Monotype with 8 turns of Weather (especially damp because rain boosts Water STAB) is never healthy as teams aren't as equipped to deal with that say as in OU. Where any team can throw on a Corviknight and just wall Excadrill for days. Additionally, due to Monotype having access to a viable Gravity user in Landorus-I, sometimes even Ground immunities that resist STEEL are not enough to beat Excadrill. Smooth Rock makes healthy weather otherwise too overbearing. While it no longer has access to Mega Swampert, Rain still should not access Damp Rock. Being able to boost your STAB for that long and for free with Swift Swim users, almost for free spam strong Water STAB, is too much.
Ban:
Damp Rock- I do not think any Swift Swim user is a problem now; I'm not too fond of Urshifu-S with this being a thing.
Smooth Rock- I want to see this in a more balanced metagame before making my final judgments on it. But I definitely still think this will for sure be problematic with Excadrill, especially now that Gravity Landorus-I exists again.

Terrain Extender
:terrain-extender:
Electric Terrain abusers, specifically Regieleki, make this just too much for the tier. Ban it asap, not much more to say.
Ban

Regieleki

I also want to take this opportunity to talk about something else, Regieleki. This thing, while I don't think it is necessarily broken, is certainly unhealthy. What I mean by this is that under Electric Terrain, nothing aside, a Ground-type can wall this. By definition, that forces every type in the builder to throw in an Electric-type immunity, even if it is not the best possible choice, to not lose to this behemoth. Some types do not even have an Electric immunity to begin with. That means this thing will completely merk them without any outs. It can 2HKO even bulky resistances such as Ferrothorn. Types that Regieleki beats flat out are Fighting, Psychic (nobody should ever have to run Claydol, its garbage), and Bug. Types that need to include Electric immunities that shouldn't have to run them otherwise: Fire and Ghost (Lightning Rod Alolan Marowak), Electric matchups are unironically decided by this thing as well (the type that abuses it), Fighting and Bug (have to run Choice Scarf Pheromosa, but it'll be banned soon so its checks will not stay). I think this thing should be given a chance shouldn't be banned right now, but after the brokens are gone alongside Terrain Extender, its most definitely worth looking into for a ban.
Unhealthy: Ban Terrain Extender first; if it continues to be a problem, get rid of it.

Urshifu-R

I think Damp Rock makes this too much, but in general, Damp Rock makes anything that can abuse strong water stab too much. So I think the move here is to ban Damp Rock and keep a close eye on this.
Unhealthy: Ban Damp Rock first; if it continues to be a problem, get rid of it.

Steel Core
:ss/aegislash::ss/celesteela::ss/ferrothorn::ss/heatran:
I want to say I've played an absurd amount of games with this core to start this off. This defensive core is absolutely nutty. I can not even begin to describe how insane it is. Even Blaziken can be defeated by them, as long as it is Toxic'd before it sets up a Swords Dance, these four forces mind games with even Blaziken to choose. On top of that, Ferrothorn and Celesteela provide Leech Seed support, promoting its defensive prowess. To take a piece from every generation of Monotype with Aegislash, I think the correct move is to reban it again. Even though Aegislash got nerfed this generation slightly, I do not think it has really affected its viability in the slightest. SubToxic sets make Aegislash so disgusting, backed by this core, that it should just be banned again.
Ban Aegislash: Going to past generations, the council has traditionally chosen to ban this to nerf the defensive Steel core. I think SubToxic Aegislash is the best set for this thing, and with the support that Steel provides
 
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1603740798932.png
- Quad Band was a terrible strat that with 10 minutes of teambuilding and fewer brain cells illustrated just how gross Rain was upon the introduction of Isle of Armor (That was with 5 turns, BTW.) With Urshifu-R unbanned and Barraskewda under Rain finding new importance as the fastest mon in a meta with Regieleki, Rain has silently carved a place for itself among the most potent builds in an extremely offense oriented meta. Damp Rock simply aggravates this, creating enormous offensive pressure capable of overrunning the vast majority of types before 7 turns is up. Kingdra and Barraskewda aside, mons like Crawdaunt let alone Urshifu-R become absolutely insufferable with great coverage and Rain boosted Aqua Jets. Granted it is not against the strongest player or build, but this clip vs. Electric illustrates perfectly that which I'm speaking of. Most offense simply has no answer to it, which is why I am:

Damp Rock & Smooth Rock
:damp-rock::smooth-rock:
Weather Rocks are never that healthy, in Monotype with 8 turns of Weather (especially damp because rain boosts Water STAB) is never healthy as teams aren't as equipped to deal with that say as in OU. Where any team can throw on a Corviknight and just wall Excadrill for days. Additionally, due to Monotype having access to a viable Gravity user in Landorus-I, sometimes even Ground immunities that resist STEEL are not enough to beat Excadrill. Smooth Rock makes healthy weather otherwise too overbearing. While it no longer has access to Mega Swampert, Rain still should not access Damp Rock. Being able to boost your STAB for that long and for free with Swift Swim users, almost for free spam strong Water STAB, is too much.
Ban:
Damp Rock- I do not think any Swift Swim user is a problem now; I'm not too fond of Urshifu-S with this being a thing.
Smooth Rock- I want to see this in a more balanced metagame before making my final judgments on it. But I definitely still think this will for sure be problematic with Excadrill, especially now that Gravity Landorus-I exists again.

Urshifu-R

I think Damp Rock makes this too much, but in general, Damp Rock makes anything that can abuse strong water stab too much. So I think the move here is to ban Damp Rock and keep a close eye on this.
Unhealthy: Ban Damp Rock first; if it continues to be a problem, get rid of it.
in agreement on all counts.
 
Steel Core
:ss/aegislash::ss/celesteela::ss/ferrothorn::ss/heatran:
I want to say I've played an absurd amount of games with this core to start this off. This defensive core is absolutely nutty. I can not even begin to describe how insane it is. Even Blaziken can be defeated by them, as long as it is Toxic'd before it sets up a Swords Dance, these four forces mind games with even Blaziken to choose. On top of that, Ferrothorn and Celesteela provide Leech Seed support, promoting its defensive prowess. To take a piece from every generation of Monotype with Aegislash, I think the correct move is to reban it again. Even though Aegislash got nerfed this generation slightly, I do not think it has really affected its viability in the slightest. SubToxic sets make Aegislash so disgusting, backed by this core, that it should just be banned again.
Ban Aegislash: Going to past generations, the council has traditionally chosen to ban this to nerf the defensive Steel core. I think SubToxic Aegislash is the best set for this thing, and with the support that Steel provides
While I have played against and with monosteel extensively, and I wholeheartedly agree with your setiment that this core is damn near unbreakable, I want to play a bit of devil's advocate: how much of their viability is affected by magearna (and melmetal by extension)? steel's MO is basically hazards + spikes stack until a cleaner can come in late game and sweep, no? would we be singing the same songs here one steel goes back to being a heavy balance type?
 

Decem

I lost a bet
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While I have played against and with monosteel extensively, and I wholeheartedly agree with your setiment that this core is damn near unbreakable, I want to play a bit of devil's advocate: how much of their viability is affected by magearna (and melmetal by extension)? steel's MO is basically hazards + spikes stack until a cleaner can come in late game and sweep, no? would we be singing the same songs here one steel goes back to being a heavy balance type?
Having over the top offensive threats like Kartana, Magearna, and Melmetal at its disposal just makes Steel by far the best type in the metagame by a long run, and you can find more room for options like Bisharp, Cobalion, Magnezone, and Jirachi if those Pokemon leave. In comparison to DLC 1, Steel was already amazing despite Fire attacks being its kryptonite. With Heatran coming back, Fire-type attacks are now a non issue, and Steel again finds itself at the top of the metagame even without Kartana, Magearna, Melmetal, and Genesect. It doesn't even need Aegislash to be amazing because it already finds solid Fighting switchins in Celesteela, Corviknight, and Skarmory.
 
While I have played against and with monosteel extensively, and I wholeheartedly agree with your setiment that this core is damn near unbreakable, I want to play a bit of devil's advocate: how much of their viability is affected by magearna (and melmetal by extension)? steel's MO is basically hazards + spikes stack until a cleaner can come in late game and sweep, no? would we be singing the same songs here one steel goes back to being a heavy balance type?
Agreed. If/when Magearna, Kartana, and Melmetal are banned the immunity core will be forced to deal with the injustice of settling for shitmons like Excadrill and Bisharp. /s

Having mons this strong that synergize this well defensively almost defeats the purpose of Mono in a way. Everyone knows that the strongest Aegi set on Steel is SubToxic. Knowing this helps almost nothing with actually beating it when not only does it have perfect switches, but each of those switches can punish you offensively as well. Not to mention the curveball of running into an Aegi that isn't SubToxic, and finding yourself down a mon because you made the perfectly understandable mistake of forgetting it can run like 3 other sets. Precedent aside, I do not necessarily know that it is Aegi who warrants getting axed, but someone needs to go. Steel will remain top 2 in the meta regardless.

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Regieleki is a limited but well-designed mon quite obviously intended to do just one thing; live up to its Pokedex listing as the most powerful Electric hitter in the game. As was pointed out by another user, I do not necessarily believe Eleki to be broken in a vacuum, and were it on any other type bar like Psychic I think it would be a powerful though fair offensive option in the vein of Dracovish or Urshifu-S. On Electric, however, it fits into an ecosystem almost perfect for facilitating the fastest, strongest (?) Rising Voltage in the game. Already, teams are warping themselves to avoid losing this thing at preview. I've seen: defensive Celebi on Psychic (good mon, kinda obsolete and takes ~50 even without a boosting item), Marowak-A on Fire and Ghost (also a good mon, both types want Blacephalon), and Virizion on Fighting (just bad) to give themselves a shot. It cannot even be checked by Ditto because of Zeraora having Volt Absorb. That much distortion, especially in a meta which at least 6 clearcut ban candidates running wild, is a clear marker of an unhealthy mon. It is still early, but as an Electric main this thing definitely needs to be watched out for. Wait and see, probably suspect.
 
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I started to write this before the recent bans, but I decided to keep the notes about Genesect and Calyrex-Ice in because they cotnextualize my later comments well.

Tier 1: Pokémon that need to be banned ASAP
- Genesect: This pokemon is absurd, has always been absurd, and will always be absurd. It’s offensive stats, the fact that it can be special, physical, or mixed, and the great variety of coverage moves it learns is just overwhelming. You need to plan from team preview how you’re going to beat it, and that’s really hard when you don’t have a clue what it’s running. Ban.
- Calyrex-Ice: This thing is just obscene. Winning with Ice has never been easier: set up veil, sack Ninetails, and sweep. I played about 30 games with this and I never once had it take down less than two Pokémon. Whoever’s idea this was should stop having ideas. Ban.

Tier 2:
Very unhealthy Pokémon that need to be banned, but which aren’t as obviously broken due to the meta centralizing around Tier 1 Pokémon.
- Magearna: Since the bannings this quickly became public enemy number 1. Frankly I was tempted to put it in Tier 1. Ban.
- Naganadel: This thing has two modes: either it sweeps the entire opponent’s team or it does nothing. But even when it does “nothing” it’s still effective in its own way, as opponents have to organize their play around the threat of this coming in and sweeping. Some people will go as far as to functionally play a Pokémon down, as their Naganadel check needs to be kept at full health the entire game lest it no longer check Naga. Ban.
- Terrain Extender / Regieleki: Right now, it seems like Electric terrain is the only major problem. Yes it powers up Tapu Lele’s attacks, but both Lele and Alakazam feel less threatening than i had been expecting. The fact that the DLC raised the speed of the format no doubt helps with that. I’m loathe to say that we should ban Terrain Extender if it’s only a problem on electric (and really a problem that would be solved by banning Regieleki), but on the other hand it does seem like its an inherently broken thing that currently happens to work best with electric. Give it time.
- Blaziken: I’ve been surprised by how unimpressive this has been since the previous round of bans. Maybe I’m using it wrong, but it seems to snowball far far less than Magearna or Naga. It really needs to get a SD off to do real damage, and that’s definitely not free. It’s been so long since I’ve played with this Pokémon I’m not sure what to think, as my instinct says ban but I haven’t seen the results to back that up. Give it time.

Tier 3:
Pokémon that are probably ban-worthy but it’s hard to tell because of how broken everything else is.
- Zyguarde 10%: This is certainly not as powerful as it’s 50% cousin, but it’s definitely dangerous and it’s ability to neuter defensive cores that are supposed to be good against ground cannot be overlooked. I feel like if this Pokémon is banned, it’ll be banned on the strength of Thousand Arrows, not on the strength of the Pokémon. Can we ban TArrows and suspect 50%? I think that would be very interesting once the dust has settled a bit more.
- Pheromosa: Genesect but frail, this is still a monster. It learns exactly three worthwhile special moves and yet is a powerful special sweeper as well as a psychical one. The fact that you can change the nature up to boost either speed or it’s attacking stat makes counterplay more difficult, but it’s lack of bulk and shallow special movepool leaves a lot to be desired. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that this encourages teams to run priority, and while it’s powerful it hasn’t seemed centralizing yet. Maybe when the more powerful Pokémon have been banned it’ll take control of the scene, but it hasn’t done so yet. No quick ban, plan to suspect.
- Kartana: This has been so overshadowed by Genesect, Magearna, and Melmetal that I haven’t really formed an opinion about it. Many games end before it even touches the battlefield. It’s definitely powerful and dangerous, but right now it’s not ban worthy. Give it time.
- Kyurem-B: Again, this Pokémon has been overshadowed by its teammates. In Kyu-B’s case, I wasn’t even running it on my ice team pre-ban because I needed Kyurem as a special attacker much more. Ice is very short on special attackers, and if you choose to run this beast as a physical attacker your best special attacker is Jynx, much to my surprise. On Dragon it’s been far less effective than it was last time. I’m not sure if this is because of the expanded pool of Pokémon or what, but it’s not dominating by any means. Give it time.

Other Threats:


The weather stones oscillate being too power and being fine depending on the generation and the context. Let’s not kid ourselves, the only reason we are talking about banning weather stones is fear of water teams. So far water teams have not impressed me and seem to be unpopular, probably because water didn’t get nearly as many fancy toys as other types.
 
i know it sounds crazy, but theoretically, is there a place for defensive
, esp for monoflying?

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Impish Nature
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
- Dual Wingbeat / Dragon Tail
- Roost
- Heal Bell / Dragon Dance
- Thunder Wave

(92 spe outspeeds -1 victini, although you can just use 252/252 if you like)

i was building for monoflying and this set crossed my mind. physdef dnite actually switches into many problematic mons like victini, barraskewda, urshifu-r, and with multiscale intact you can even take stuff like stone edges from full and whatnot. basic idea is you tank physical hits with this and spam twave. most mons don't like it since the metagame is super offensive right now, and you can slow down stuff so your other mons can clean.
 
Some thought about the watchlist :
blaziken.png
- Blaziken is not the threat it was back in Gen VII. The loss of blazikenite AND the presence of things like Toxapex, Quasire or defensive Landorus-T in the tier reduces its snowball potential, and it can be revenge killed easily by faster things like Regieleki, Pheromosa, and Choice scarf Excadrill. If running eq, Dragonite and Moltres can stop it, and if running edge, Slowbro and Quagsire, etc.
Blaziken is a strong mon, but it remains manageable. Do not Ban

magearna.png
- Magearna, thanks to its fantastic bulk and defensive typing, can easily setup a cm or/and shift gear and destroy everything that is not a Steel type, Blissey, or Victini (and of course Shedinja). It can also easily set up the TR and pivot with volt switch, and can run BoltBeam, etc. It's broken and definitly deserves to be banned. Ban

zygarde-10.png
- ZyDog get the best offensif move in the game, Thousand Arrows, and good offensives stats, with an very good speed (but not insane), and access to extreme speed to revenge kill threats to dragon and ground teams like Darmanitan-G. But it's very frail. It's OHKOed by litterally every ice shard in the game. In top of that, it difficultly fits on dragon teams,, it's better in ground. I think we need a more balanced metagme before banning ZyDog. Do not ban

kartana.png
- Kartana.... it's a tough one, because it's a fantastic sweeper thanks to Beast boost, with great typing and correct physical bulk, and has some variants like Choice scarf and Timid + Swords dance, but can be stopped (if not already at +6) by things like bulky Buzzwole. On the other side, it can destroy water and ground teams, which are bad MU for Steel, and invalidate some types. Steel is by far the best type atm, Kartana should be banned, but not now. Maybe after some bans like Damp rock. Ban

pheromosa.png
- Pheromosa is a fantastic wallbreaker and can also spin, with acces to quiver dance, powerful STAB moves, ice beam, triple axel, rapid spin, throat chop, poison jab and U-turn. With an adamant nature and Choice scarf, it can 6-0 some types like Dark, Grass & Dragon, it's so broken that its poor bulk isn't a problem, because it kills everything. Definitly broken. Ban

naganadel.png
- Naganadel is like Blaziken, but faster and more threatening. LO set can, after one np, 2HKO Blissey, thanks to beast boost it can boost its speed and destroy anything that isnt Heatran, specially defensive Tyranitar or Heatproof Bronzong (but Bronzong is quite useless atm). This monster can also run Thunderbolt to counter Water/Flying teams, it's not as broken as it was back in Gen VII, whitout Z, but its snowball potential is toodangerous. Ban

damp-rock.png
/
smooth-rock.png
- Since Damp rock & Urshifu-S were unbanned, rain teams have become absolutely too broken, with Urshifu-R and Swift swim users likes Kingdra/Barraskewda/Seimsitoad, 8 turns rain boosting their STABs, Ban
Smooth rock is healthier than Damp rock, with only 2 viables Sand rush users (Excadrill and Lycanroc) in Monotype (and tbh, Rock isnt played a lot, with Steel and Water everywere) Do not ban

terrain-extender.png
- Terrain extender isnt as broken as it was back in Gen VII, because terrains got nerfed, but with Tapus, EP in Psychic and RV in Electric, especially with this monster
regieleki.png
8 turns terrains can be very difficult to handle if you dont have a Ground type/Lighting rod in your team. I think this item deserves a ban, it's too difficult to face if you dont have a counterplay like your own terrain or something faster than Regieleki like Choice scarf Pheromosa (Faster than 200 base speed haha) Ban

I would also like to talk about some mons that are not on the list, like Urshifu-R, Melmetal and the previously mentionned Regieleki, I think after the first round of bans we will have to watch them closely.
 
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Regieleki

Types that Regieleki beats flat out are Fighting, Psychic (nobody should ever have to run Claydol, its garbage), and Bug.
When you forget that
is a thing, cause it levitates and only gets hit by half damage of the rising voltage
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 111-131 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 45.4% chance to 3HKO
barely avoids the 2hko aswell if you are using that
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Electric Terrain: 128-151 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Im also gonna take this chance to talk a bit about my opinion on this mon, Regieleki is a pokemon that can straight up beat a team that dosent have or lost the counterplay to it, but how he does that? with electric moves thats it, if there is a matchup I can win spamming electric moves then why do I need this? I brings nothing new to the electric team other than just raw damage, and on the other hand playing this can be a severe loss of momentum if you try to use it while they still have counterplay avaliable, you actually can't use this pokemon while the enemy has the counterplay avaliable, you are forced to play 5v6 until that counter is gone, which is not something im a huge fan off, ill repeat once again, if I can beat someone with electric moves, I wont need regieleki to do that, not with Koko Raichu and Zeraora who can all do that but also have an infinitely better moveset, just dont use this pokemon.
 
i know it sounds crazy, but theoretically, is there a place for defensive
, esp for monoflying?

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Impish Nature
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
- Dual Wingbeat / Dragon Tail
- Roost
- Heal Bell / Dragon Dance
- Thunder Wave

(92 spe outspeeds -1 victini, although you can just use 252/252 if you like)

i was building for monoflying and this set crossed my mind. physdef dnite actually switches into many problematic mons like victini, barraskewda, urshifu-r, and with multiscale intact you can even take stuff like stone edges from full and whatnot. basic idea is you tank physical hits with this and spam twave. most mons don't like it since the metagame is super offensive right now, and you can slow down stuff so your other mons can clean.
I am actually working on a similar Dragonite set but with Substitute and in reference to Pressure Flying with Heal Bell Articuno I wouldn't really need Heal Bell (and I have Substitute to avoid status moves) along with 96 speed to hit 220 for Jolly Azumarill because speed is important of course. I'm going to EV it for like Rotom-Wash but I do feel like this set has much potential as it helps with many typings excluding the ones that may be insanely fat like Poison or Water with Toxapex. Fly came to mind but Dual Wingbeat deals with like Alakazam better~
1603822400802.png
 

maroon

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When you forget that
is a thing, cause it levitates and only gets hit by half damage of the rising voltage
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 111-131 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 45.4% chance to 3HKO
barely avoids the 2hko aswell if you are using that
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Electric Terrain: 128-151 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Im also gonna take this chance to talk a bit about my opinion on this mon, Regieleki is a pokemon that can straight up beat a team that dosent have or lost the counterplay to it, but how he does that? with electric moves thats it, if there is a matchup I can win spamming electric moves then why do I need this? I brings nothing new to the electric team other than just raw damage, and on the other hand playing this can be a severe loss of momentum if you try to use it while they still have counterplay avaliable, you actually can't use this pokemon while the enemy has the counterplay avaliable, you are forced to play 5v6 until that counter is gone, which is not something im a huge fan off, ill repeat once again, if I can beat someone with electric moves, I wont need regieleki to do that, not with Koko Raichu and Zeraora who can all do that but also have an infinitely better moveset, just dont use this pokemon.
Here is a calc you should be familiar with
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Lati's are not proper checks, they are 2HKO'd by this.
 
Here is a calc you should be familiar with
252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Lati's are not proper checks, they are 2HKO'd by this.
The latias set that is loosing as you put it here is choice scarf latias, the only rocker electric has is stunfisk and I wont believe you see that so often, any other item for latias and she wins, namely specs, leftovers, lo, whatever makes Psychic OHKO or makes her get out of the 2HKO chance

And the point is again you dont have to run claydol, you can run something that is viable on psychic
 
Hello all. I really would like to address a few points of Regieleki since it seems most people are overreacting to its effectiveness.

1- It does NOT instawin vs Psychic. The fact is that you do not even need Claydol in order to reliably beat Regieleki because Latias does an effective job handling that Pokemon. If Latias is running 252 hp invests, Regieleki can no longer 2HKO Latias, as displayed by the calc:

Of course you need to use a bulkier latias spread if you want to better handle Regieleki, and not simply throwing a Choice Scarf set from previous gens. However this does not necessarily make it a handicap if team structure is rearranged (Psychic is versatile enough to do that).

252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 156-185 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Biggest issue there would probably be Volt Switching, but it is possible to manuever Electric's options with the use of Dual Screens (which I see many people not running), Celebi, Jirachi, and even terrain dispelling through Tapu Lele (yes, it kills every Electric pokemon each time it comes in since no Dark mons. Hell, Choice Specs Tapu Lele even 2HKOes non HP / Spdef variants of Magnezone, as displayed by the calc:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even then, non choice variants can still run Focus Blast to get rid of this annoyance.

2 - Other than Fire (which can run a-marowak but i agree it is a handicap + regieleki getting ancient power), Bug, Fighting and Fairy, all the other 13 types have a natural answer to Regieleki (do note I am excluiding Normal from the list because of Zeraora and it being near-irrelevant in the metagame but ok). By natural I mean it involves an answer that your team should be normally running, so the centralizing argument does not apply here. Grass has Appletun + RIllaboom checks, Ice has Piloswine and Kyurem-Black (which can be used both as a check and as a sweeper in the electric vs ice matchup), Ghost can go for the Ghost/Ground mons IF it is not going for Marowak, Flying has Landorus / Thundurus-Therian / Dragonite, and the list goes on..

3- Means that are outside of switch-ins. Yes, this is something very few people talk about. I am aware most games in Monotype don't go as simple as switching your checks in front of Regieleki. However, in the case your Regieleki check has been weakened, there are some other ways to get through it: It has a mediocre 80 / 50 bulk, so priority from powerhouses like Dragonite and Urshifu can do a good job checking this Pokemon. Furthermore, even with types like Fighting and Bug lacking switch-ins, you still have Pheromosa for the time being (Scarf variants outspeed non-scarf Regieleki variants, and always OHKO with Close Combat). I am aware it won't last for long, but at least you can still use Urshifu-S which does a great job checking it with Sucker Punch.

Also it is very important to note that you shouldn't be crying if it gets a kill or another because we often needs to sack options when playing versus offense. Regieleki is supposed to be a mix between a wallbreaker + fast mon except that it is super one-trick on electric moves to make it fair w/ mediocre bulk. Below are some calcs showing another possibilities to check that Pokemon.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 285-335 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki in Grassy Terrain: 328-386 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 262-310 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 228-269 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Most of them require a small chip to get it done, but even still it is not impossible to get past through it. Therefore, if you are using regular options, it is defintiely manageable.

(also pls don't say "nobody uses choice band dragonite w/ hdb around" because i really believe CB set should be used more lol. either way hdb safely 2HKOes since u would always have multiscale intact, except that damage range will be narrowed.)

That's it guys, i'll be happy to reply on anything that needs more elaboration. Should be coming with another post when meta settles with some of types I have playtested.
 
Once again I am here to post my updates regarding some Pokemon and items. Gonna be a rather short list this time around.

1603840264843.png - After facing and playing with Blaziken more, my opinions regarding this pokemon has changed drastically. If you look back in my previous post, I said that Blaziken was nearly impossible to deal. I said this because, once Blaziken was able to get off a swords dance, it snowball to the point where it was very hard to deal with. Now, I think that Blaziken is much more manageable than let on, simply because it lacks the coverage to deal with every pokemon that walls this. Even then, most sets on Blaziken feature Flare Blitz, which speed up the process of Blaziken self destructing due to it also running Life Orb. Of course, some Matchups are pretty much impossible to win such as Ice or Grass with this pokemon present, but those Matchups were heavily unfavorable for those typings anyway, so it doesn't change much. However, I am still questioning on if Blaziken should stay. The only thing that changed was that I think Blaziken was much more manageable than I initially thought it to be. Maybe this is because there are alot more things that snowball a lot easier than Blaziken or maybe I'm just not facing the right opponents.

1603841088894.png
- One of the few pokemon in which my opinions on got stronger after seeing and playing with it more. Before I was using mostly just focus sash sets, but once I switched over to scarfed Pheromosa, It felt like my eyes truly opened. Boasting a 601 base speed stat with scarf, there is virtually nothing that can outspeed it, least you are running an equally as fast or faster pokemon with scarf as well which is few and far between. With its incredibly high offensive stats, its almost always going to do decent damage or even outright OHKO (If it got off one beast boost then well...I hope you had something that resists the move its locked into).

1603841566046.png
- I'm not going to spend much time on this because my thoughts are very much the same as Juleocesar, and he made an excellent post above that perfectly explains why I do not think this pokemon is as much as a big deal as people make it out to be.

1603841766762.png
- Damp rock will be the only extender I will be talking about in this post because lets be real, this is the only one that matters. Smooth rock only improves the fact that Excadrill has more turns to play in to get your mileage out of, and terrain extenders are well, they are much more manageable than what they were in previous generations. In regards to damp rock though, I do believe it is too much for the metagame. With Urshifu being unbanned, alongside the plethora of swift swim/rain abusers coupled with the fact their STAB gets strong is simply too much. Another thing about this is that rain flying teams are much more viable now, with their team being able to spam Hurricane and Thunder to their hearts content and not worry about ever missing.
 
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Blaziken, Magearna, Pheromosa, Kartana, Zygarde 10%, Naganadel, Damp/Smooth Rock, Terrain Extender

I'll go in order of what I think should be prioritized for a ban. My thoughts will kinda expand the further down I go.

:magearna:High Priority: The best reverse sweeper in the game. I'd argue it's stronger this gen compared to last. The Calm Mind + Shift Gear set make this thing near unstoppable and with its team support, near invulnerable too. Draining Kiss gives so much sustain, it doesn't need to run Fleur Cannon anymore. Stored Power synergizes with the set and Soul Heart to snowball it to infinity.

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:kartana:High Priority: Also one of the best snowballing mons in the meta. All it needs is one kill and it's rolling over teams. Most popular set so far has been Choice Scarf which is enough to make it hard to deal with.

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:naganadel:Mid-High Priority: Have played against little to no Poison teams but I have used it on Poison. Of course it's been on every Dragon team I've seen. The sets I've encountered mainly were: Choice Scarf, Focus Sash, and Life Orb. Whether it's Nasty Plot or Modest Scarf, it snowballs just as hard as the two mentioned above. A couple downsides to Naganadel is that it doesn't have as much bulk and no more access to Z-moves. Scarf can be played around and you can manage to force it out with proper play, even with the Nasty Plot set.

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Damp Rock Mid Priority: The offensive pressure provided by Swift Swim is bolstered by this item. Allows the Water STAB to hit hard for majority of the game. When it comes to Swift Swim vs other offensive builds or types, Swift Swim with Damp Rock usually wins the sack war. Versus Balance builds, it still kind of struggles even with Damp Rock. The whole point of Swift Swim is to brute force your way to victory. If it can't do that, then the archetype kind of falls apart. As far as Damp Rock on Flying, I've only seen LuckyPiper use it and I like it. It's not as oppressive but it has its uses against opposing Flying teams, Bug, Fighting, and like Poison. But for the most part, it's decent at best. I don't think Damp Rock is as bad, but it would still be a good ban.

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:pheromosa:Mid Priority: So, I finally got to play with/against this mon this generation. Last gen, it got banned before I could see what it was like. It fits the description of glass cannon perfectly. While it's coverage is good, I don't think it's as threatening compared to the above mentioned. It definitely hits hard and you can tailor it for certain matchups you want to have an edge against. For example, Focus Sash + Quiver Dance allows you to sweep when the opposing team has no priority moves or if you KO any priority revenge killers. Adamant Choice Band/Scarf can punch holes through Steel or Dark teams to allow for snowballing or open opportunities for its teammates.

A random calc that made me change my Bug team lead was this:

252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 306-362 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 360-426 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Just small changes like this with Pheromosa can help you get an edge on some matchups. I don't think it's as bad because it can be walled, but it can give Bug and Fighting teams momentum with the few different sets and coverage moves it can run. Would be fine with it staying but if it gets banned, that's fine.

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Terrain Extender Mid Priority: I'm on the fence with this because really the main abusers are Koko/A-Raichu/Regieleki. Sure, Psychic has Psychic Terrain + Expanding Force, but we mainly focus on Electric's usage of this item. One thing people I think forget are the nerfs Terrains received. They can be removed by Defog and the damage boost was lowered from 1.5>>1.3 which it a pretty significant damage falloff. Also losing access to HP Ice/Fire kinda hurts too. So the likes of Koko is less threatening and thank God that Regieleki can't use any of the Hidden Powers. A decent Ground, Dragon or Grass type almost walls off the entire type. I personally don't mind Terrain Extender, I think it can stay. Banning it would still be fine.

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:blaziken:Low Priority: I don't find Blaziken as threatening this generation. Too many different walls can keep it in check, can be revenge killed or it kills itself with recoil from Life Orb or Flare Blitz, less opportunities to setup. However, whenever it does get a chance to get a SD, it can be a problem. It can run Earthquake or Knock Off for coverage as other have mentioned or even Stone Edge, but I feel there are many types that have ways of dealing with it outside of like Rock, Ice, or maybe even Normal. Fighting teams can still do without Blaziken while Fire teams would find it as a staple. I think it should stay, not entirely worth a ban.

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Smooth Rock No-Low Priority: Ground hasn't been in the best state this generation and Smooth Rock hasn't changed it much. Landorus-I coming back does Excadrill a lot since it has struggled without Gravity support for a long time. Even so, Choice Band Excadrill on Ground had fallen off long before Landorus-I came back. You see more SD + LO sets now compared Choice Band which is probably the better set now with Smooth Rock. Compared to Damp Rock, it just isn't as threatening as it used to be. Especially with really one abuser that has seen better days. You could probably get away with dropping Gravity on Lando-I for some other move if you're using SD Excadrill. Gravity Lando-I is better for Choice Band Excadrill. I think Smooth Rock should stay, not worth a ban.

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:zygarde-10:No Priority: It's frailer, weaker, and less viable compared to Garchomp. It's only redeeming factors are Thousand Arrows, potential Dragon Dance sets, and its speed. I'm glad this generation's council decided to look at both forms individually instead of collectively. It can't use Z-moves anymore so it's easier to wall off and easier to revenge kill. It has no place on Dragon, only really being useful on Ground. It's base 100 Atk stat really shows how weak it is, even as a Choice Band user. I've rather have a Choice Scarf Garchomp over a Choice Band Zydog, you'll get more value out of it compared to Zydog. I don't think it should be banned at all. There are other mons to watch out for than Zydog.

EDIT: I apologize to the Dark Mode users, I didn't realize there was a dark mode on Smogon while changing the text color back from the priorities.
 
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