I cannot help myself. I said this a while ago back in SM, I will say it again. Zydog is not broken, and it never was broken in the first place lmaoNo Priority: It's frailer, weaker, and less viable compared to Garchomp. It's only redeeming factors are Thousand Arrows, potential Dragon Dance sets, and its speed. I'm glad this generation's council decided to look at both forms individually instead of collectively. It can't use Z-moves anymore so it's easier to wall off and easier to revenge kill. It has no place on Dragon, only really being useful on Ground. It's base 100 Atk stat really shows how weak it is, even as a Choice Band user. I've rather have a Choice Scarf Garchomp over a Choice Band Zydog, you'll get more value out of it compared to Zydog. I don't think it should be banned at all. There are other mons to watch out for than Zydog.
EDIT: I apologize to the Dark Mode users, I didn't realize there was a dark mode on Smogon while changing the text color back from the priorities.
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Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]
- Thread starter mushamu
- Start date
Thank you for your opinion and high quality analysis, we'll be sure to take this into consideration.
Eien talks about why we would never do this here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-monotype-metagame-discussion.3621036/page-6#post-7882449
These are my thoughts and not the councils
I think a lot of you are severely underrating Blaziken. Fire has incredibly good support , and I think it's the best type. With screens and sun, volcarona and cinderance can set up pretty easily, especially with cinder able to change types to avoid super effective hits. It also has excellent breaking power midgame to set up volcarana or cinderace late game. I personally think the amount of positioning you have to try to do to avoid being swept by it on both types is ridiculous, with the very solid offensive tools fire and fighting have otherwise such as pheromosa/urshifu and screens/cinder/volc/sun friends.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1211209003-qu8b83v6jbvhrwkgx7su93p9u960zlmpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1211218876-35zbibegevhyeq1wn29gwaf7vidshycpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1211207124-a1jvd588m8m6ov5hjuo23k93md7aquypw
I also think steel is pretty overrated currently. After another wave of bans, I agree it'll probably be too much as is but for now, its good matchups are not very common at all. Dragon carrying Zygarde is almost impossible to play against, flying with lando and zapdos will always be tough. Rain and pex are still incredibly difficult to deal with when you can't really fit ferro and kartana. Poison has a great matchup vs it with naga nido salazzle pex as options, dark has mandibuzz to eat kart and ttar can sprea 6d twave for urshifu and hydregion. Fire and Fighting are super solid and common with obviously great matchups. Ghost has Spectrier which can snowball through after a ko and regieleki + zera + zap on electric is a pretty tough MU even without zone.
Anyway with that said, expect some bans pretty soon..
Third Wave of Quickbans:
The Monotype council has voted to ban the following in this wave:
- Blaziken
- Pheromosa
- Magearna
- Naganadel
- Terrain Extender
Tagging The Immortal to implement, thanks!
Vote Breakdown:
Blaziken has shown to be an overwhelming threat within the Monotype metagame since the release of DLC 2. The combination of Speed Boost, Swords Dance and an excellent attack stat allows it to easily run through teams once it gains momentum. The support it receives from its teammates on both teams furthers this issue; it is too easy to wither down an opponents team, enabling Blaziken's late game cleaning. It also has access to screens support which makes setting up practically guaranteed against most types. Overall, the lack of defensive counters on a majority of teams have lead to its ban.
Similar to Blaziken, Pheromosa has an exceptional ability to decimate teams once it gets going. Its nearly unmatched speed tier and incredible offensives provide it with a daunting presence in most matchups. Moreover, it has a vaste movepool on both the physical and special side, which makes it extremely unpredictable. In many situations, players are forced into difficult positions because they are unsure if they are dealing with Choice Scarf, Quiver Dance, etc... The inclusion of Heavy Duty Boots furthers its success as it can easily come in and out of a match to blow holes through a team. As mentioned for Blaziken, its team support only amplifies its ability to sweep.
As for the previous Pokemon, Magearna's ban stems from its ability to sweep teams practically risk free. With the addition of Stored Power and Draining Kiss to its movepool this generation, its daunting Shift Gear + Calm Mind set has only become more threatening. It can hardly be chipped down by an opponent as it regains an immense amount with its strong Draining Kiss. Moreover, it easily sets up in many matchups because of its access to guaranteed Light Screen + Reflect support on both its type, in conjunction with its already impressive bulk. Its team support makes it very difficult to defeat on both its team, with a strong defensive core on Steel-type teams and checks to its weaknesses on Fairy-type teams. It also gains more recovery from Tapu Bulu's Grassy Surge. Besides the aforementioned set, Magearna has an incredibly colourful movepool that allows it to run a wide variety of sets. This provides it with an unhealthy versatility that makes most types play with extreme caution in case its a set that can nearly autowin against them.
Naganadel is another amazing sweeper that has been overwhelming the Monotype metagame. Its access to Nasty Plot, complemented by its speed boosting capabilities with Beast Boost allow it to run through opposing teams easily. Its strong dual stab + fire coverage allow it to neutrally hit every Pokemon besides Heatran which is forced to run SpD sets to not be easily broken. Moreover, it can run other great sets like Choice Specs or Choice Scarf which allow it to break down teams, while pressuring the opponent by setting up hazards. These sets are also used to easily sweep teams because Beast Boost can be customized to increase Special Attack or Speed. The opponent is often required to sack something just to determine its set, and this sack can result in flat out losing the game. In essence, it is nigh impossible to stop this Pokemon once it gets going. Most checks or counters are handled or weakened by its team support.
Despite the nerf to terrain, Terrain Extender is being banned because of how easily it can be abused by Electric- and Psychic-type teams. Pokemon like Regieleki and Alolan Raichu on Electric-type teams have a field day with a large part of the metagame with very little responses. For many types, they are unable to handle the pressure these Pokemon exert in Electric Terrain without priority. As for Psychic Terrain, Pokemon like Alakazam are able to decimate teams with an extremely powerful Expanding Force. As these Pokemon cannot be handled with priority, teams are forced to multiple fast options to revenge kill. The majority of types lack defensive options that are capable of withstanding the combination of Expanding Force or other terrain boosted Psychic-type STAB and the wide variety of coverage moves available on this type. Overall, this item allows Electric- and Psychic-type teams to dominate the flow of a match.
Watchlist:
Damp Rock, Kartana, Kyurem-Black, Melmetal, Regieleki, Smooth Rock, Zygarde-10%
A reminder that just because something was not banned this cycle, it does not mean we will stop looking at it. They will be voted on again in the future. Also, please do contribute and give your opinions on these bans and future ones! We greatly appreciate well constructed, smart posts arguing something. Remember to provide replays as supports for arguments, it makes our job a lot easier.
The Monotype council has voted to ban the following in this wave:
- Blaziken
- Pheromosa
- Magearna
- Naganadel
- Terrain Extender
Tagging The Immortal to implement, thanks!
Vote Breakdown:
Blaziken has shown to be an overwhelming threat within the Monotype metagame since the release of DLC 2. The combination of Speed Boost, Swords Dance and an excellent attack stat allows it to easily run through teams once it gains momentum. The support it receives from its teammates on both teams furthers this issue; it is too easy to wither down an opponents team, enabling Blaziken's late game cleaning. It also has access to screens support which makes setting up practically guaranteed against most types. Overall, the lack of defensive counters on a majority of teams have lead to its ban. Similar to Blaziken, Pheromosa has an exceptional ability to decimate teams once it gets going. Its nearly unmatched speed tier and incredible offensives provide it with a daunting presence in most matchups. Moreover, it has a vaste movepool on both the physical and special side, which makes it extremely unpredictable. In many situations, players are forced into difficult positions because they are unsure if they are dealing with Choice Scarf, Quiver Dance, etc... The inclusion of Heavy Duty Boots furthers its success as it can easily come in and out of a match to blow holes through a team. As mentioned for Blaziken, its team support only amplifies its ability to sweep. As for the previous Pokemon, Magearna's ban stems from its ability to sweep teams practically risk free. With the addition of Stored Power and Draining Kiss to its movepool this generation, its daunting Shift Gear + Calm Mind set has only become more threatening. It can hardly be chipped down by an opponent as it regains an immense amount with its strong Draining Kiss. Moreover, it easily sets up in many matchups because of its access to guaranteed Light Screen + Reflect support on both its type, in conjunction with its already impressive bulk. Its team support makes it very difficult to defeat on both its team, with a strong defensive core on Steel-type teams and checks to its weaknesses on Fairy-type teams. It also gains more recovery from Tapu Bulu's Grassy Surge. Besides the aforementioned set, Magearna has an incredibly colourful movepool that allows it to run a wide variety of sets. This provides it with an unhealthy versatility that makes most types play with extreme caution in case its a set that can nearly autowin against them. Naganadel is another amazing sweeper that has been overwhelming the Monotype metagame. Its access to Nasty Plot, complemented by its speed boosting capabilities with Beast Boost allow it to run through opposing teams easily. Its strong dual stab + fire coverage allow it to neutrally hit every Pokemon besides Heatran which is forced to run SpD sets to not be easily broken. Moreover, it can run other great sets like Choice Specs or Choice Scarf which allow it to break down teams, while pressuring the opponent by setting up hazards. These sets are also used to easily sweep teams because Beast Boost can be customized to increase Special Attack or Speed. The opponent is often required to sack something just to determine its set, and this sack can result in flat out losing the game. In essence, it is nigh impossible to stop this Pokemon once it gets going. Most checks or counters are handled or weakened by its team support. Despite the nerf to terrain, Terrain Extender is being banned because of how easily it can be abused by Electric- and Psychic-type teams. Pokemon like Regieleki and Alolan Raichu on Electric-type teams have a field day with a large part of the metagame with very little responses. For many types, they are unable to handle the pressure these Pokemon exert in Electric Terrain without priority. As for Psychic Terrain, Pokemon like Alakazam are able to decimate teams with an extremely powerful Expanding Force. As these Pokemon cannot be handled with priority, teams are forced to multiple fast options to revenge kill. The majority of types lack defensive options that are capable of withstanding the combination of Expanding Force or other terrain boosted Psychic-type STAB and the wide variety of coverage moves available on this type. Overall, this item allows Electric- and Psychic-type teams to dominate the flow of a match.Watchlist:
Damp Rock, Kartana, Kyurem-Black, Melmetal, Regieleki, Smooth Rock, Zygarde-10%
A reminder that just because something was not banned this cycle, it does not mean we will stop looking at it. They will be voted on again in the future. Also, please do contribute and give your opinions on these bans and future ones! We greatly appreciate well constructed, smart posts arguing something. Remember to provide replays as supports for arguments, it makes our job a lot easier.
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This is my opinion ... Hope u will consider it :)
Damp Rock ... The thing is water has too many swift swin option such has kingdra barraskewda and seismitoad which will be hard to counter for most type. And also most of them run duel rain setter which is really hard to control. So I consider it should be banned.
Smooth Rock ... Not much threat as damp rock, But still this gives excadrill a more time play, which will be very hard to control.
Kartana ... Since this returns, most had a difficulty to counter because of lack of speed for most mons. Once it allows to set up, its really annoying to counter. It doesnt have variety of moves, But its speed and attack makes it as a scarier one.
Kyurem-Black ... Last DLC is banned due to immense attacking power and bulkier than thought. It has more attaking option and its team support is huge like aurora veil setup makes it even bulier to set up. Should be consider abt it. And its scarier than Kartana tbh.
Melmetal ... This mon can tank any physical hit and its immense attack makes it unstoppable. But it can be countered my good Special atk mons. The only concern is its signature move ( if its possible to ban its signature move ... thn i think it will prolly be healthy ).
Regieleki ... Honestly since the terrain extender is banned, this will be much lesser threat. But its speed is so immense that it can easily outspeed jolly terrakion also. So mostly prefer either priority or Bulky mons to depend on it.
Zygarde 10% ... It isnt much threat as compared to other mons in the list. And it isnt broken also. I dont think it should be banned. Its atk stat is pretty decent and it can be counter easily also.
Hope u will consider my response :) Since its my first analysis.
So aparently Regieleki is on the watchlist now...
Im gonna go back to the reasons of why Im not using this pokemon and why most people shouldn't
The thing that causes Regieleki to be overrated is its damage output, what this thing can do with a rising voltage its something quite impressive and im guessing thats what causes people to talk a lot about it, its said that this is a matchup dependant pokemon, aka it will rundown teams that arent prepared for it.
If this is the only argument that support Regieleki being good, im going to invalidate it next, for this we need to look at how the pokemon beats up teams, and that is by spamming electric type moves, and that is because this pokemon has near to no coverage whatsoever, now we are talking about an electric type team where this pokemon is to be played, a team where I have pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Zeraora and Alolan Raichu, who the later can do about the same effect with choice specs Rising Voltage, sure, its damage its not going to be the same as of Regieleki, but that changes very little on what one pokemon can KO and the other can't with the same move, the checks and counters for them (while only considering this move) are the same, but that is only considering one move, because thats what Regieleki is, a one trick pony, if we take into acount Raichu having at least a Psychic type move, Focus Blast and being faster under terrain (you are not gonna tell me Regieleki isnt terrain dependant aswell), we get a pokemon that is almost entirely outclassing this one.
"Ok we get it, there is a pokemon that can do sliiightly better in terms of overall performance, but can't I run both of them to have an even better team?"
And this is the part where ill repeat myself on my previous posts, running Regieleki suposes a huge loss of momentun on the mayority of matchups, almost all types bar bug and fighting (who both already have a terrible matchup against electric without Regieleki) have a solid natural answer to this pokemon, one that is viable and used often enough in their respective types, Regieleki is so predictable that is completely unusable while the enemy still has its counter available, you will be on a 5v6 situation durning most of the battle and it wont change until you are able to KO the counter in the enemy team, which may or may not happen, ive seen many times battles where this pokemon wasnt able to land a single attack, being used last and dying, its not a rare case, its rather common to happen.
Regieleki wasnt that good even with terrain extender being around, but now that its gone its gonna be harder to play, Regieleki is totally terrain dependant to land those OHKOs that will keep it alive.
Thats all I have to say about this pokemon, some share my opinion, some dosen't, its not like something that its going to disapear, just that it has a low viability, ill finish this post with a quote I say to everyone that askes.
- "If there is a matchup I can win by spamming electric moves, why do I need Regieleki to do that for me?"
just thought id give my opinions on eleki as its a pretty hot topic rn.
Regieleki is kinda in a weird spot. It's definitely broken, as in it's fucking insane when you have it launching modest specs + transistor + stab + Terrain boosted rising voltage. The problem is, it's only insane when clicking those electric moves, not necessarily making it unhealthy. Something unhealthy(imo) is a mon that forces certain teams to run a mon that they would normally not want to run, in this case, eleki is forcing all teams to run a pokemon immune or a bulky resist to electric. I'm only gonna go over the types that are affected by this, it really isnt that many.
Fire: Fire is now forced to run alolawak. wak itself isn't bad at all, and it's pretty easy to fit. However, alolawak is not a ground type, and therefore is affected by regieleki's one coverage move, ancient power, which ohkos if you get just a little bit chip on wak. This shouldnt be too much of a problem if you keep wak healthy, as running sr or spikes is kind of a waste of a slot in pinc or stunfisk. However, wak is really nice for deterring the eleki player to spam electric moves, forcing it to instead either act as a sack or click its much weaker ancient power.
Electric: Electric itself is kinda weird, as you'll be in an eleki v eleki mu, but most of your team resists it, and won't be ohkod, so eleki is not the real threat here.
Rock: Rhyperior is probably the one better rock/ground, but it's not like rock has to run rhy, stuff like cradily in sand can eat but the key thing is needing sand to actually take the hits. This isn't too big of a deal tho, stuff like Power Herb nihilego can start snowballing really well vs electric and scarf terrakion does outspeed modest eleki.
Fighting: Fighting has no pokemon at all immune to electric. However, fighting does have virizion, whos screens sets with synthesis can take rising, but the main thing here is that fighting's playstyle is very very offensive, so not having a good switchin isn't too bad, there are a lot of mons that fighting can not switch into like specs lele. Instead, fighting can offensively check eleki with scarf terrakion or any other scarfer that can ohko regieleki and hit 500 speed.
Psychic: Psychic is pretty interesting, Claydol is obviously unviable, but there is scarf latias, who is 3hkod by modest eleki, and also outspeeds and ohkos back with draco meteor.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 121-143 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki: 328-387 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The one thing here is, like maroon pointed out, thunderbolt will deal more damage, as latias levitates, and thunderbolt does 2hko latias, meaning latias can not repeatedly switch in
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 156-184 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I still do not believe this makes it broken, psychic has terrain of its own, and latias can very easily run a bulky set with recover as well.
Ghost: Ghost now has to either run wak(who's one problem is listed above) or a ground type, in palossand/runerigus/golurk. Palossand is pretty cool, it gets recovery and ep hits pretty hard vs electric. Golurk can run a nice cb set to pressure a lot of stuff with its iron fist punches and Poltergeist. Runerigus is the bulkiest and the lightest(takes less gknot damage) who can set up tspikes to boost its teammate's hexes from mons like pult or spectrier. Overall these mons are not exactly ghost's top choices, but they are not terrible, and add there own traits to ghost.
Dark: I have not used or seen anyone use dark that much, so i don't know for sure, but probably you'll need to either run av ttar or krookodile on your team to avoid regieleki sweeping you. Other pokemon like Hydreigon or Zarude can probably take a hit and ko back.
Fairy: Fairy also has no ground type or immunity, but Tapu Bulu can set its own terrain and with klefki's screens, it can take rising voltage incredibly well
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 123-145 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
he can not directly switch in without screens, so he isnt entirely foolproof, but as shown here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1209914823
horn leech+leftys+terrain means that bulu can constantly keep himself healthy vs eleki, and eleki in that match was not able to come in that much at all.
anyway that's all, eleki seemed to be a hot topic and i 100% agree with the ppl that posted before me, eleki is NOT oppressive on teambuilding or enough types that it is unhealthy. Most of the types i listed are doing fine even when being forced to use Pokemon not considered viable before, and eleki's damage output when the opponent has no checks is not enough to make it ban worthy in my eyes.
Fire: Fire is now forced to run alolawak. wak itself isn't bad at all, and it's pretty easy to fit. However, alolawak is not a ground type, and therefore is affected by regieleki's one coverage move, ancient power, which ohkos if you get just a little bit chip on wak. This shouldnt be too much of a problem if you keep wak healthy, as running sr or spikes is kind of a waste of a slot in pinc or stunfisk. However, wak is really nice for deterring the eleki player to spam electric moves, forcing it to instead either act as a sack or click its much weaker ancient power.
Electric: Electric itself is kinda weird, as you'll be in an eleki v eleki mu, but most of your team resists it, and won't be ohkod, so eleki is not the real threat here.
Rock: Rhyperior is probably the one better rock/ground, but it's not like rock has to run rhy, stuff like cradily in sand can eat but the key thing is needing sand to actually take the hits. This isn't too big of a deal tho, stuff like Power Herb nihilego can start snowballing really well vs electric and scarf terrakion does outspeed modest eleki.
Fighting: Fighting has no pokemon at all immune to electric. However, fighting does have virizion, whos screens sets with synthesis can take rising, but the main thing here is that fighting's playstyle is very very offensive, so not having a good switchin isn't too bad, there are a lot of mons that fighting can not switch into like specs lele. Instead, fighting can offensively check eleki with scarf terrakion or any other scarfer that can ohko regieleki and hit 500 speed.
Psychic: Psychic is pretty interesting, Claydol is obviously unviable, but there is scarf latias, who is 3hkod by modest eleki, and also outspeeds and ohkos back with draco meteor.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 121-143 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki: 328-387 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The one thing here is, like maroon pointed out, thunderbolt will deal more damage, as latias levitates, and thunderbolt does 2hko latias, meaning latias can not repeatedly switch in
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Electric Terrain: 156-184 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I still do not believe this makes it broken, psychic has terrain of its own, and latias can very easily run a bulky set with recover as well.
Ghost: Ghost now has to either run wak(who's one problem is listed above) or a ground type, in palossand/runerigus/golurk. Palossand is pretty cool, it gets recovery and ep hits pretty hard vs electric. Golurk can run a nice cb set to pressure a lot of stuff with its iron fist punches and Poltergeist. Runerigus is the bulkiest and the lightest(takes less gknot damage) who can set up tspikes to boost its teammate's hexes from mons like pult or spectrier. Overall these mons are not exactly ghost's top choices, but they are not terrible, and add there own traits to ghost.
Dark: I have not used or seen anyone use dark that much, so i don't know for sure, but probably you'll need to either run av ttar or krookodile on your team to avoid regieleki sweeping you. Other pokemon like Hydreigon or Zarude can probably take a hit and ko back.
Fairy: Fairy also has no ground type or immunity, but Tapu Bulu can set its own terrain and with klefki's screens, it can take rising voltage incredibly well
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 123-145 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
he can not directly switch in without screens, so he isnt entirely foolproof, but as shown here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1209914823
horn leech+leftys+terrain means that bulu can constantly keep himself healthy vs eleki, and eleki in that match was not able to come in that much at all.
anyway that's all, eleki seemed to be a hot topic and i 100% agree with the ppl that posted before me, eleki is NOT oppressive on teambuilding or enough types that it is unhealthy. Most of the types i listed are doing fine even when being forced to use Pokemon not considered viable before, and eleki's damage output when the opponent has no checks is not enough to make it ban worthy in my eyes.
Ban - 8 turns of rain is just incredibly too long especially with viable rain abusers such as Barraskewda, Kingdra, Seismitoad, Urshifu-Rapid Strike, and Dracovish being available. Water has pivots that can safely bring in said abusers in pretty safely like U-turn Pelipper, Flip Turn Swampert, Teleport Slowking, and Eject Button Toxapex. For Flying, Tornadus learns Nasty Plot this generation, Flying may not have the same pivots like Water but 100% Hurricanes over 8 turns is way too long + Thundurus-Therian can do the same with Thunders. 
Ban - With Landorus-I being here to support Excadrill's desire to click Earthquake under Sand, I find this more unhealthy than before. 8 turns is just a little too much and Ground has better Pokemon than when it was first banned. This is similar to the Terrain Extender and Damp Rock argument.
Regieleki-Check/Counter Analysis
+
[Grassy Terrain]
[Sand Stream]
[Psychic Terrain]
1.) How do you feel about Regieleki? Do you think its overrated or just straight up broken?
Abstain - I do feel like Thousand Arrows can be problematic but this this is very very fragile to even pull off +2 Dragon Dances. Choice Band is the more favored set, I think keeping an eye on this is best, If you consider this broken because it can hit Flying and Electric, well you also have Gravity Landorus that clicks Gravity, U-turns into Smooth Rock, and Band Excadrill goes crazy. Even without Smooth Rock, the Sand and Gravity is still there but abstaining this seems best rn as other things (weather rocks seems top prio for now)
Abstain - After playing around with this, I do feel like this needs more time, It does eliminate Bulky Waters, Flying, and Poison. On paper Whirlwind Skarmory can potentially work for Flying and ye it just subs on bulky waters. Galarian Weezing may come to mind but sorry, this is unreliable: 0 SpA Weezing-Galar Strange Steam vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black through Light Screen: 93-111 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- 31% chance to 4HKO- The 88 HPs allows it to make Celesteela's Heavy Slam 2HKO Substitute behind Veil.
Im just gonna say that both rocks will likely be banned, the extended weather hits pretty hard especially with the myriad of Swift swimmers and the main sand rushing mon in Excadrill. Rain is as potent as it always has been, and the fact it regains Urshifu Rapid strike makes the rain even more of a pain in the ass.
as for Smooth rock, it would open up some more threatening things to stay on the field longer, such as Band Sand rush Excadrill... and that thing is normally counter number one
For Zydog I would put that on hold for a bit, After playing a few Zydog teams I would say it seems fairly strong... but that ability it has to break certain types such as Steel/Flyings, Electric and its rare immunity mons, etc. Its basically the Zydog I remember in gen 6/7 when it was used then except certain types can't just beat it anymore with HP Ice (cough Electric)
As to point out what Roxie said about it though I think its important to note that gravity Landorus will still exist after this, however Zydog is a bit more threatening to me personally, since it can just smack mons regardless of type due to Thousand arrows hitting flying types/ ground immune types it has a damn good coverage now when you compare it to Lando where it needs one clear turn of setup to sweep things... also having things like smooth rock available right now though might just make it a bit more harder to look into
Either way opinions are opinions so ignore the old decrepit user, but based on so much prior knowledge ban the damn rocks, as someone who's lived through Gen 6 and 7 those rocks were broken back then, and nowadays they both have more tools to abuse both rocks with.
as for Smooth rock, it would open up some more threatening things to stay on the field longer, such as Band Sand rush Excadrill... and that thing is normally counter number one
For Zydog I would put that on hold for a bit, After playing a few Zydog teams I would say it seems fairly strong... but that ability it has to break certain types such as Steel/Flyings, Electric and its rare immunity mons, etc. Its basically the Zydog I remember in gen 6/7 when it was used then except certain types can't just beat it anymore with HP Ice (cough Electric)
As to point out what Roxie said about it though I think its important to note that gravity Landorus will still exist after this, however Zydog is a bit more threatening to me personally, since it can just smack mons regardless of type due to Thousand arrows hitting flying types/ ground immune types it has a damn good coverage now when you compare it to Lando where it needs one clear turn of setup to sweep things... also having things like smooth rock available right now though might just make it a bit more harder to look into
Either way opinions are opinions so ignore the old decrepit user, but based on so much prior knowledge ban the damn rocks, as someone who's lived through Gen 6 and 7 those rocks were broken back then, and nowadays they both have more tools to abuse both rocks with.
Going to give my short input on two things on the watchlist right now, having played a majority of flying on ladder.
Just as before, this Pokemon really is a monster to try to deal with. If Skarmory is your answer, here is your calc:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-180 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO
If rocks are up or if Skarmory has taken 9% or more chip, then it is a guaranteed 2HKO. Max defense Celesteela has a 97+% chance to be 2HKOed, and Corviknight is an 85% chance. In addition, Icicle spear hits anything that might try to come in to take the fusion bolt. Your only other option is to try to play the 50/50 game and predict which move Kyurem is clicking, but if you guess incorrectly or your your opponent gets tired and just clicks Dragon Dance you likely will lose right on the spot. While Icicle Spear is "unreliable" in that it hits 2-5 times, 2 hits, especially boosted, has a chance to 2HKO even the bulkiest flying types that are neutral to Fusion Bolt:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 168-196 (43.7 - 51%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
My consensus right now is that this Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame, and especially paired with screens this Pokemon is too much to handle for many types. I will continue playing with other types, including ice and dragon, but I don't foresee a change in my opinion.
I mentioned this in my RMT that I posted (Shameless Plug), but Thousand Arrows is too centralizing of a move to be ignored right now. Without a single Pokemon that is Bug/Flying or Grass/Flying, there are no Pokemon to resist this move. Coming from a Choice Band Pokemon with a very solid attack stat, one of the only Pokemon that takes neutral damage that can switch in to a Thousand Arrows without fear of being 2HKOed by outrage is Mandibuzz. While the argument could be made that then the answer to this solution is to simply run Mandibuzz, this inherently restricts teambuilding and creativity, which I believe is a sign of an unhealthy metagame. Several of you have brought up the point that "Even if Zydog is banned, Lando-I still exists," to which I would like to respond with two quick points. First, I don't believe this is the way that bans should be handled; if a Pokemon is broken, centralizing, or uncompetitive, then that Pokemon should be discussed without regard to how good the team would be without it. Second, even if this is the way that you would wish to handle discussing bans, Lando-I needs a turn to set up Gravity, during which you can out-maneuver it and force it out with Dragonite, Landorus-T, etc.
My thoughts on Zygarde-10% right now is that it is both over-centralizing and uncompetitive for multiple types to try to deal with, and therefore I would like to see it banned.
Just as before, this Pokemon really is a monster to try to deal with. If Skarmory is your answer, here is your calc: 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-180 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO
If rocks are up or if Skarmory has taken 9% or more chip, then it is a guaranteed 2HKO. Max defense Celesteela has a 97+% chance to be 2HKOed, and Corviknight is an 85% chance. In addition, Icicle spear hits anything that might try to come in to take the fusion bolt. Your only other option is to try to play the 50/50 game and predict which move Kyurem is clicking, but if you guess incorrectly or your your opponent gets tired and just clicks Dragon Dance you likely will lose right on the spot. While Icicle Spear is "unreliable" in that it hits 2-5 times, 2 hits, especially boosted, has a chance to 2HKO even the bulkiest flying types that are neutral to Fusion Bolt:
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 168-196 (43.7 - 51%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
My consensus right now is that this Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame, and especially paired with screens this Pokemon is too much to handle for many types. I will continue playing with other types, including ice and dragon, but I don't foresee a change in my opinion.
I mentioned this in my RMT that I posted (Shameless Plug), but Thousand Arrows is too centralizing of a move to be ignored right now. Without a single Pokemon that is Bug/Flying or Grass/Flying, there are no Pokemon to resist this move. Coming from a Choice Band Pokemon with a very solid attack stat, one of the only Pokemon that takes neutral damage that can switch in to a Thousand Arrows without fear of being 2HKOed by outrage is Mandibuzz. While the argument could be made that then the answer to this solution is to simply run Mandibuzz, this inherently restricts teambuilding and creativity, which I believe is a sign of an unhealthy metagame. Several of you have brought up the point that "Even if Zydog is banned, Lando-I still exists," to which I would like to respond with two quick points. First, I don't believe this is the way that bans should be handled; if a Pokemon is broken, centralizing, or uncompetitive, then that Pokemon should be discussed without regard to how good the team would be without it. Second, even if this is the way that you would wish to handle discussing bans, Lando-I needs a turn to set up Gravity, during which you can out-maneuver it and force it out with Dragonite, Landorus-T, etc. My thoughts on Zygarde-10% right now is that it is both over-centralizing and uncompetitive for multiple types to try to deal with, and therefore I would like to see it banned.
I don't see how Zydog is any more steamroller than pokemon like Spectrier who absolutely steamrolls Psychic, and no Indeedee is barely a check:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Indeedee-F: 272-322 (96.7 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Indeedee-F: 237-281 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Indeedee-F: 182-216 (64.7 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You could try and revenge kill it but then you have stuff like this:
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 226-267 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 214-254 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier in Psychic Terrain: 229-271 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier in Psychic Terrain: 262-310 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It may not be bulky but it's bulky enough to tank a single hit for pretty much all the good revenge killers in Psychic so unless you happen to have several of them you can't win against Ghost spam.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Indeedee-F: 272-322 (96.7 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Indeedee-F: 237-281 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Indeedee-F: 182-216 (64.7 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You could try and revenge kill it but then you have stuff like this:
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 226-267 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 214-254 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier in Psychic Terrain: 229-271 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier in Psychic Terrain: 262-310 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It may not be bulky but it's bulky enough to tank a single hit for pretty much all the good revenge killers in Psychic so unless you happen to have several of them you can't win against Ghost spam.
Spectrier’s problem is that has no coverage move other than Ghost/Dark. Meaning that its easily walled by the like Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Porygon 2, Chansey and every Dark type in that matter. Will-O-Wisp and Taunt might hamper them, but that’s not going to allow Spectrier to beat them 1 v 1 with the exception of Chansey and Blissey.
Zydog’s issue that’s there are near 0 Defensive answers to it, as Thousand Arrows + Dragon Type coverage pretty much covers the entire game bar Tapu Bulu and Ribombee. Access to ExtremeSpeed makes also very difficult for offense handle as priority and revenge killing are less effective due to Extreme Speed.
Because of this perfect type coverage, it has freedom for the last slot: Toxic screws defensive answers like Hippowdown and Avalugg, while Iron Tail hits the aforementioned Bulu and Ribombee. Not to mention that Steel and Fire have 0 switch ins into it.
Namranan
:)))))))))))
Hello Monotypers, as you know the crown tundra tournament has concluded its first round and the stats are already out for it. As a result, I'm going to be analyzing them every round and giving thoughts on what it means for the metagame when we see this.
Now granted some prevalent pokemon like Blaziken, Pheromosa, Magearna, and Naganadel were banned recently as well as terrain extender, but I think it is still worth looking at what types were dominating and why.
Also s/o to Ticken and his friend Milak for making the amazing awesome spreadsheet that contained this info.
Please give Tickens post likes because it's so great to have this information readily available.
Now granted some prevalent pokemon like Blaziken, Pheromosa, Magearna, and Naganadel were banned recently as well as terrain extender, but I think it is still worth looking at what types were dominating and why.
| Type: | Winrate: | Common Pokemon: | Trends: | Notable Matches: |
| Bug | 33.33% (out of 3 games) |     | * The use of Buzzwole over the faster heracross. | adjustments vs exotic cheese |
| Dark | 50% (out of 2 games) | N/A | N/A (Not enough matches to tell a trend with) | N/a (was a mirror match) |
| Dragon | 50% (out of 30 games) |   | * The lack of Hydreigon usage * A lot of Garchomps are using the SD + Scale Shot combo along with rocks * HDB Dragonite is the most common set * Dracovish has a very high winrate despite low usage * Lots of variety with Latios movepool and item wise. * Lack of Zygarde-10% usage * Almost complete dropoff in Noivern usage | N/a (best replays had naga play a pivotal role) |
| Electric | 45.45% (out of 22 games) |      | * The near-ubiquitous use of Regieleki and Terrain Extender Koko * Rotom wash becoming the most used rotom form * A lot of Zapdos are using substitute sets rather than defogger sets. | Luckypiper vs Splash RottenInfernape vs memomiguel Roxiee vs Jordy |
| Fairy | 58.33% (out of 12 games) |  | * Dropoff of Hatterene and Togekiss usage * Tapu Koko has surprisngly low usage compared to its Gen 7 state * Azumarill being ubiquitous | Hyperspace vs Derpsdeluxe Nailec vs Tjay |
| Fighting | 57.14% (out of 7 games) |     | *Zapdos-g getting a ton of usage over previous common mon Hawlucha * Lack of Terrakion usage | Confluxx vs Emma |
| Fire | 29.41% (out of 17 games) |    | * Very low overall winrate | Prepupescent vs Vizzico |
| Flying | 50% (out of 20 games) |  | * Dropoff of Corvinknight usage * HDB Dragonite is the most common set * Defoggers if there are any rarely do their job, also some teams don't have any. | Toxanex vs McSim ara vs monoGEP |
| Ghost | 40% (out of 10 games) |   | * Lack of Gengar and Corsola-g usage. * Spectrier getting a lot of usage. * Different rockers or spikers for every ghost team. (Palosand, Corsola-g, Froslass) | Decem vs MatLaTomate Frol1 vs Rex Slayer |
| Grass | 66.67% (out of 3 games) |   | N/A (Not enough games nor noticable trends) | Splash vs Luckypiper |
| Ground | 23.53% (out of 17 games) |  | * Ubiquitous sand teams * Gastrodon has become the preffered water immunity * Low Zygarde usage and winrate * Won very few neutral MU's | N/a (No replays that show ground's strengths) |
| Ice | 33.33% (out of 3 games) |    | * Glastrier usage | N/A (only win was type advantage [vs Dragon]) |
| Normal | 100% (out of 1 game) | N/a (literally only one game) | N/a | memomiguel vs Rotteninfernape |
| Poison | 100% (out of 1 game) | N/A (literally only one game, again) | N/a | Bushtush vs Confluxx |
| Psychic | 66.67% (out of 9 games) |    | * Low Hatterene usage * Special Victini is very common | Chaitanya vs Raj. Shoot Yedla vs ashbala99 Brumirage vs 52gambit |
| Rock | 60% (out of 5 games) |     | * Ubiquitous Nihilego usage | Fylkir Pudin vs Starblim |
| Steel | 60% (out of 45 games) |  | * Low Melmetal usage * Drop in Corviknight and Jirachi usage | imjustgray vs aquero azul adjustments vs exotic cheese Peachyclouds vs Tico 21 Dieu Amphibien vs Teggun Burcs |
| Water | 52.94% (out of 34 games) |   | * Mainly rain being used * Tapu Fini uses a CM set or Scarf * Gyarados has no usage at ALL * Slowking is the preferred slowtwin | Toxanex vs McSim IPF vs Jolly Togekiss Kaif vs Asruna |
Also s/o to Ticken and his friend Milak for making the amazing awesome spreadsheet that contained this info.
Please give Tickens post likes because it's so great to have this information readily available.
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Please ban Regirock. With thy addition of body press the Pokémon named regirock has become an absolute monster. You think spectrier is broken? Nah this dudes out of this world. He's like Tony's Galaxy Pizza, too good to be true. I shall now provide evidence of it being a sweeper that no mon can ever handle.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1216054043-pd652yxvvhhdqrhhog2i9ibl1u3f1e6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1216054043-pd652yxvvhhdqrhhog2i9ibl1u3f1e6pw
I can't see Regieleki being broken or even good in Monotype in the long run. It's main niche of punishing types without Electric immunities is true and I agree with memomiguel's points on that. As the metagame fleshes out, Regieleki should fall from grace as team structures solidify and people start running Electric-type immunities on their teams; not to just beat Regieleki, but because they are solid Pokemon all in all and take on Electric-type Pokemon as an additional benefit. Pokemon like Landorus on Flying, Garchomp on Dragon, Excadrill on Steel, Nidoking on Poison, Swampert/Gastrodon/Seismitoad on Water, and Diggersby on Normal are already staples on their respective types so you're not being forced to run them for Regieleki. It's true that other types like Fighting and Bug don't really have a way to switch into Regieleki, but they also have priority in Durant's First Impression and Urshifu-S's Sucker Punch that gives them at least a chance to pick it off. These types without Electric immunities are going to lose to Pokemon like Choice Band Zeraora, Alolan Raichu and Volt Switch Tapu Koko regardless outside of attempting to pick them off with these aforementioned priority users.
When teambuilding, I feel like Regieleki's more of a Pokemon that only capitalizes on matchups that are already good or very doable to begin with. Otherwise, like memomiguel said, you're essentially playing a 5v6 until your opponent decides to throw away their Electric immunity and that's definitely unappealing when you're trying to build teams against competent players. If you look at Luckypiper vs Splash from the Crown Tundra introduction tournament, Regieleki couldn't come in until Excadrill was fainted, but once it did, Alolan Raichu won at that point anyways. Magnezone is great mainly because of its defensive typing, and offers more to Electric than Regieleki to me. A Steel typing provides a good number of resistances across the board for an offensive type like Electric, being able to come in on attacks like Latias's Draco Meteor, and more importantly, check threats like Dragon Dance Kyurem-B and Dragapult which Electric as a whole would otherwise lose to. Being more useful in matchups that need more leverage is far more appealing than being great in matchups Electric is already good in, and I think the Regieleki hype will die down soon as teams start looking for more consistent options in tournament play.
Damp Rock is incredibly unhealthy and should go. Water is known for having extremely dangerous rain abusers, which includes both Pokemon like Kingdra which need rain to function and Urshifu-R and Dracovish that are even better under rain. Barraskewda, Kingdra, and Seismitoad are some other names that come to mind, as well as Keldeo if Urshifu-R ends up getting banned again down the line. It should note that in this generation, Water got extremely potent pivots that can bring said rain abusers in for free most of the time. Both Flip Turn Swampert and Teleport Slowking can be run on rain to solidify teams even more and serve as a defensive backbone for Pelipper. Teleport in general is a pretty dumb move that eliminates the need to make predictions, and Slowking's bulk combined with its typing and ability makes it an extremely good user of it. Many types are easily overwhelmed by 7 turns of rain in contrast to 5; Ferrothorn on Steel teams cannot switch in forever and your Water resist is otherwise Kartana, Kingdra overwhelms Dragon, Barraskewda takes on Electric and outspeeds pretty much everything, and Dracovish becomes completely unwallable bar certain Water immunities. Take this replay for example, where Kingdra makes use of the extended rain in order to completely clean Dragon, compared to the fact that it would have been revenge killable late game by Hydreigon in the scenario that there was only 5 turns of rain. 7 turns of rain combined with good support becomes unbearable for pretty much every type bar Grass, which is the lone exception because of Grassy Glide Rillaboom. I think it's too early to tell whether or not Smooth Rock is unhealthy; Ground right now is still lackluster due to Pokemon like Kartana, as well as rain Water being prominent and not having as many abusers and support as Water does. Urshifu-R and Smooth Rock could definitely turn out to be unhealthy as the metagame progresses and more Pokemon get banned, but getting rid of Damp Rock is the first step.
Along with Choice Scarf being an excellent revenge killer, I think Choice Band and Swords Dance Kartana sets are also extremely dangerous. I've been trying a lot of CB Kartana in particular over the past few weeks and it's extremely easy to make progress with it. It capitalizes on bulkier variants of Water even more by 2HKOing Toxapex as well as Ground even more by OHKOing Landorus unboosted, then proceeding to sweep the rest of the team. It's also extremely dangerous in other matchups; being able to click Knock Off against Psychic and Ghost, Knock Off and Sacred Sword beats Steel, Smart Strike beats Fairy, and so on. Knock Off hurts like hell against fat Pokemon that would otherwise switch into it easily; removing passive recovery from Toxapex and Celesteela makes them a lot easier to deal with later on and even Mandibuzz hates switching into it because that means it's 2HKOd by CB Smart Strike after Stealth Rock the next time it comes in but it is forced to because nothing else on Dark likes switching into Kartana. Against Poison, Kartana easily forces out Nidoking and Galarian Weezing and can start clicking Knock Off, Smart Strike, and Leaf Blade to the point where the Poison team can't switch into it reliably especially with hazard support. Poison's CB Leaf Blade switchin under Grassy Terrain is Amoonguss, which is super easy to exploit for Grass teams that can simply burn it with Rotom-C or set up Spikes with Ferrothorn considering it can only really touch the Grass team with Foul Play. SD Kartana is decent if you're trying to play around Protect Heatran and King's Shield Aegislash which would normally scout for CB Kartana. Kartana also has really good support on Grass too which makes it and the entire type very competent. Rillaboom sets up Grassy Terrain and can use U-turn to get it in for free, Rotom-C and Whimsicott burn and paralyze things Pokemon so that Kartana can have an even easier time breaking, and a solid defensive core in Ferrothorn and Appletun covers for Kartana's poor defensive capabilities. Invalidating types like Ground and Water alongside being extremely dangerous in other matchups due to its great power, speed tier, and ability is enough of a reason to ban Kartana from Monotype to me. Pokemon like Melmetal and Aegislash will be easier to gauge on Steel if Kartana goes for sure.
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AllTerrainVen0moth
Banned deucer.
From a probably staged replay, no.
Double Dance Regirock is an interesting set doe
This DLC has been painful with the return of old broken mons along with their new brethren. I want to give my take on the DLC mons from a skeptical and casual player POV. I'll try to avoid repeating what others said unless I have strong feelings about one of the prompts.
This thing really tested my patience and put me off playing this game but after building teams for several types with this atrocity in mind, I concluded that this thing doesn't deserve a ban but will be good to farm wins off of casual mono players.
However, if the council were to suspect or quick ban it no tears will be shed.
Conclusion: Begrudgingly Do Not Ban Regielekid
STEEL
Magearna and Genesect are gone. Good. I am surprised that Kartana is still here tbh, it still packs too much heat that the meta can handle imo but most importantly the support it has this gen. With the return of celesteela and heatran, steel is back as an undeniable s-tier type but thanks to the past year's developments, this is some SSS+ tier stuff. Corviknight has kinda fallen into irrelevance but Aegislash simplifies all the previous Heatran or Celes mind games. I think Aegis has served its purpose for Steel while Heatran was gone and should now return to the extremely popular metagame of Ubers monotype :). After that, we could reassess Kartana but I think it should go anyway. With all the steel chunky boys being back, Melmetal is a proper niche option and while I agree that it is still the massive threat it previously was, we will be able to truly determine how unhealthy this ugly registeel is after the quick bans. I think the fact that Steel was so limited, that TR was a very viable option at the time of Melmetal's ban aided said ban. As many of the others said, Steel will be a top tier type regardless if these watchlist mons are axed so please embrace this cleansing of metals; it is for the greater good.
Conclusion: Ban Kartana and Aegislash Observe Melmetal
and
Please remove these things. While I appreciate the smooth rock's contribution against Regi-one tap everything with rising voltage, it is still a tinge too much for this meta to handle.
Conclusion: Ban Damp Rock and Smooth Rock.
Tbh Psy Terrain gets in your own way on Fairy and Psychic appreciates Indeedee's Ghost immunity more than this pink coconut worm so long story short, this can stay unless evil stratagems such as the following become fashionable.
Conclusion: Do Not Ban Tapu Lelouch
and
Like Melmetal I think these 2 should be observed post quick bans.
"The real predicaments appear after the honeymoon period"
- Anonymous Divorcee
Conclusion: Observe Kyurem-B and Zydoge
Hope you appreciate these curated and unbiased views. Please do not hold it against me if I hurl a barrage of compliments if I see you using regi-I cater to players who like to click one move on ladder. Enjoy this Tundra's Crown.
This thing really tested my patience and put me off playing this game but after building teams for several types with this atrocity in mind, I concluded that this thing doesn't deserve a ban but will be good to farm wins off of casual mono players.
However, if the council were to suspect or quick ban it no tears will be shed.
Conclusion: Begrudgingly Do Not Ban Regielekid
STEEL
Magearna and Genesect are gone. Good. I am surprised that Kartana is still here tbh, it still packs too much heat that the meta can handle imo but most importantly the support it has this gen. With the return of celesteela and heatran, steel is back as an undeniable s-tier type but thanks to the past year's developments, this is some SSS+ tier stuff. Corviknight has kinda fallen into irrelevance but Aegislash simplifies all the previous Heatran or Celes mind games. I think Aegis has served its purpose for Steel while Heatran was gone and should now return to the extremely popular metagame of Ubers monotype :). After that, we could reassess Kartana but I think it should go anyway. With all the steel chunky boys being back, Melmetal is a proper niche option and while I agree that it is still the massive threat it previously was, we will be able to truly determine how unhealthy this ugly registeel is after the quick bans. I think the fact that Steel was so limited, that TR was a very viable option at the time of Melmetal's ban aided said ban. As many of the others said, Steel will be a top tier type regardless if these watchlist mons are axed so please embrace this cleansing of metals; it is for the greater good.
Conclusion: Ban Kartana and Aegislash Observe Melmetal
Please remove these things. While I appreciate the smooth rock's contribution against Regi-one tap everything with rising voltage, it is still a tinge too much for this meta to handle.
Conclusion: Ban Damp Rock and Smooth Rock.
Tbh Psy Terrain gets in your own way on Fairy and Psychic appreciates Indeedee's Ghost immunity more than this pink coconut worm so long story short, this can stay unless evil stratagems such as the following become fashionable.
Tapu Lele @ Leftovers
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Iron Defense
- Stored Power
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Iron Defense
- Stored Power
Like Melmetal I think these 2 should be observed post quick bans.
"The real predicaments appear after the honeymoon period"
- Anonymous Divorcee
Conclusion: Observe Kyurem-B and Zydoge
Hope you appreciate these curated and unbiased views. Please do not hold it against me if I hurl a barrage of compliments if I see you using regi-I cater to players who like to click one move on ladder. Enjoy this Tundra's Crown.
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I'm not really sure that I follow your logic to ban Aegislash. You mentioned that it, alongside Heatran and Corviknight (or other flying types), provides a way to play mind games with the opponent; this is true, that with these three Pokemon Steel is granted immunities to all of its weaknesses. However, what you say next is that because Heatran is back that Aegislash should now leave? To me it sounds like you believe that the introduction of a potentially S tier pick for steel in Heatran should be grounds for the banning of Aegislash.. I'm not sure that I can follow this logic. Sure it is annoying to try to deal with a team that has immunities to its weaknesses, but both Heatran and Aegislash lack reliable recovery, and alongside the many nerfs that Aegislash received in this generation I do not believe Aegislash warrants a ban.
I think it's because historically when heatran + aegislash + skarm/celesteela was present together aegislash was always the first to get banned. in dlc 1 it was relatively easy to handle steel since they had no fire switchins, but now the core is complete and aegi is arguably the strongest of the trio. not that aegislash deserves a ban this dlc 2, but if you had to ban 1 of the 3 mons, he was always the one to leave.
Well before Heatran was out, the main fire checks on Steel were probably SubTox or WPolicy Aegis, Corviknight or Bronzong(uncommon). Aegis has a good movepool, great Ghost stab and stats to make it a significant offensive threat in its own right however, it has always been tempered by the fact clicking fire moves vs steel was almost generally free damage. After playing for a few days with this new steel, never has specs aegis for example been this free. In many scenarios, you spam shadow ball everytime it's in, and 9 times out of 10 Kartana is in a position to sweep following that. The supporting cast allows you to safely make this happen unless ofc you play vs elite wallbreakers (Urshifu, Cinderace, opposing Aegislash, or sub keldeo) . Even then protect on heatran and Celesteela helps you navigate these threats, to a certain degree. Please give it a go, and give an opinion on such sets.
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Fourth Wave of Quickbans:
The Monotype council has voted to ban the following in this wave:
- Kartana
- Damp Rock
Kartana has been a dangerous threat in the Monotype metagame since the release of the Crown Tundra DLC, and arguably the most alarming threat after the third wave of quickbans. Its incredible Attack stat paired up with great coverage and decent Speed poses a big threat to nearly every type. Choice Band sets are difficult to switch in on as Water and Ground teams lose a Pokemon to Leaf Blade almost every time, Psychic and Ghost get hit by Knock Off, Fairy and Dragon struggle with Smart Strike and so on. Choice Scarf variants can act as revenge killers and late game sweepers thanks to its Beast Boost ability, whereas Swords Dance sets can break without being locked into one move. Choice Scarf sets also benefit a lot from Steel's amazing defensive core which can easily wear down teams to open up for Kartana to sweep. Some Pokemon that would normally be able to check it such as Zapdos and Mandibuzz can get their Heavy-Duty Boots knocked off and later get 2HKOed. The lack of defensive counter play has been deemed unhealthy and led to its ban.
Seven turns of rain for abusers such as Barraskewda, Kingdra, Seismitoad, Urshifu-R, and Dracovish is too much for every type except Grass to deal with. Even Water resists such as Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Dragon-types struggle against these teams due to Barraskewda and Urshifu-R's Close Combat, Seismitoad's Earth Power and Focus Blast, and Kingdra's Specs Dragon Pulse. Furthermore Water-type teams have access to amazing pivots to allow these abusers safe switch ins such as Slowking's Teleport, Swampert and Barraskewda's Flip Turn, and Pelipper and Urshifu-R's U-turn. Overall the presence of Damp Rock allows Water-type teams to dominate and overpower many teams, and that has led to its ban.
Vote Breakdown:
Tagging The Immortal to implement, thanks!
Watchlist:
Melmetal, Aegislash, Zygarde-10%, Kyurem-Black, Smooth Rock
The Monotype council has voted to ban the following in this wave:
- Kartana
- Damp Rock
Vote Breakdown:
Tagging The Immortal to implement, thanks!
Watchlist:
Melmetal, Aegislash, Zygarde-10%, Kyurem-Black, Smooth Rock
I'll be a little more brief in this post compared to my last one.
- It's gotta go. This thing takes hits and pays it back 3-fold. Similar to Regieleki with Electric's matchups, whatever matchup Steel already wins, it just wins harder if it's on the team. But Melmetal takes it to a greater extent while being able to hit hard with its signature Double Iron Bash and BoltBeam punches. Assault Vest and Choice Band sets really make this thing hard to deal with. With its huge HP stat, a player can tailor spreads for whatever it needs to live to punch holes in a team.
- Kyu-B on its own is pretty strong and becomes even stronger when you build around it. I don't have much to say on it besides the Dragon Dance sets are pretty much the only thing it runs now, but I feel the old LO Mixed Attacker set can still be used on Dragon teams that's built around something else. I feel that it's fine in a sense that it can become the central point of Dragon now compared to previous generations. Before, Dragon teams were built around things like Mega Altaria or Mega Lati@s. Now Kyu-B is the focal point of Dragon and Ice teams.
- I still don't find Smooth Rock as oppressive or on par with Damp Rock. It still doesn't make Ground any more viable now compared to the start of the generation. It does give SD Excadrill sets more room to be ran, which has been the popular set on Sand Ground teams, compared to Choice Band. Ground has really fallen from grace compared to its gen 6 self. Even with Landorus-I's Gravity support, Sand Ground just doesn't seem to have that edge factor anymore. Not since the Zygarde-50% ban. Which leads to the next watch list member.
- As I've said before, Zydog is weak. It is not a staple mon, it is a niche mon. It doesn't really fit on Dragon teams because Garchomp offers much more. Garchomp is bulkier, hits harder, more flexible in the sets/spreads it can run, and a great ability in Rough Skin. Zygarde only has Thousand Arrows, Extremespeed, and a good speed tier going for it. If you really want to c-team Fire and Electric, as GROUND or DRAGON might I add, then sure, use it. Whether Zydog stays or goes, doesn't change the fact Fire and Electric will have a tough time with Ground and Dragon regardless. Now, realistically, you'd use it for things like Celesteela, Corviknight, and/or Skarmory on Flying or Steel. But I feel like people briefly forget that Thousand Arrows need to hit those mons twice for it to be super-effective. The first hit smacks the target out the air, then you do big damage.
50% being gone is enough. Just let Zydog be free as a niche pick for Ground since Dragon doesn't really need it. Thousand Arrows is a good move but it's not as centralizing as people make it out to be when it's coming from Zydog.
- Now here's the thing. The Immunity Core of Steel is just a huge pain to play against. It used to be SkarmTranSlash, now it's CelesTranSlash and it's still as annoying as ever, if not more annoying with Celesteela. The core Aegislash forms on Steel is just unhealthy. Whether it's double Protect between Aegislash and Celesteela or Triple Protect if you put it on Heatran, the counterplay to the core just disappears. The Steel player doesn't have to think, no real plays are being made. However, Aegislash, individually, isn't broken, the core it forms on Steel is broken. I feel like a strong case can be made for the re-introduction of the type ban on Aegislash. Yes, I know suggesting a type ban is a meme at this point. But, the tiering philosophy for Monotype does suggest if there is an extreme situation, it could be considered by the council.
I'll briefly quote an article by scpinion:
Even after type bans were removed, Aegislash was, for a small amount of time, considered to be an extreme situation where its type ban was allowed. Aegislash was/is the picture-perfect example of a good type ban and it always will be.
Again, I know throwing out a type-ban suggestion is frowned upon, but I truly feel there's still a case to be made for Aegislash if the council is open to it.
- It's gotta go. This thing takes hits and pays it back 3-fold. Similar to Regieleki with Electric's matchups, whatever matchup Steel already wins, it just wins harder if it's on the team. But Melmetal takes it to a greater extent while being able to hit hard with its signature Double Iron Bash and BoltBeam punches. Assault Vest and Choice Band sets really make this thing hard to deal with. With its huge HP stat, a player can tailor spreads for whatever it needs to live to punch holes in a team. - Kyu-B on its own is pretty strong and becomes even stronger when you build around it. I don't have much to say on it besides the Dragon Dance sets are pretty much the only thing it runs now, but I feel the old LO Mixed Attacker set can still be used on Dragon teams that's built around something else. I feel that it's fine in a sense that it can become the central point of Dragon now compared to previous generations. Before, Dragon teams were built around things like Mega Altaria or Mega Lati@s. Now Kyu-B is the focal point of Dragon and Ice teams. - I still don't find Smooth Rock as oppressive or on par with Damp Rock. It still doesn't make Ground any more viable now compared to the start of the generation. It does give SD Excadrill sets more room to be ran, which has been the popular set on Sand Ground teams, compared to Choice Band. Ground has really fallen from grace compared to its gen 6 self. Even with Landorus-I's Gravity support, Sand Ground just doesn't seem to have that edge factor anymore. Not since the Zygarde-50% ban. Which leads to the next watch list member. - As I've said before, Zydog is weak. It is not a staple mon, it is a niche mon. It doesn't really fit on Dragon teams because Garchomp offers much more. Garchomp is bulkier, hits harder, more flexible in the sets/spreads it can run, and a great ability in Rough Skin. Zygarde only has Thousand Arrows, Extremespeed, and a good speed tier going for it. If you really want to c-team Fire and Electric, as GROUND or DRAGON might I add, then sure, use it. Whether Zydog stays or goes, doesn't change the fact Fire and Electric will have a tough time with Ground and Dragon regardless. Now, realistically, you'd use it for things like Celesteela, Corviknight, and/or Skarmory on Flying or Steel. But I feel like people briefly forget that Thousand Arrows need to hit those mons twice for it to be super-effective. The first hit smacks the target out the air, then you do big damage.However, look at a Defensive Celesteela for example:
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 130-154 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nice chunk of damage, but more than likely Celesteela clicks Leech Seed in that same turn. Also in that same turn, Leech Seed + Leftovers recovers half the damage done. Click Protect next turn and it's back to full HP and 1/4 of Zydog's HP is gone.
On Steel, you swap to Ferrothorn (Thank God Kartana is gone) or on Flying, you swap to Lando. It's not as cut and dry, obviously, but there are ways for Steel and Flying to play around it.
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 130-154 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nice chunk of damage, but more than likely Celesteela clicks Leech Seed in that same turn. Also in that same turn, Leech Seed + Leftovers recovers half the damage done. Click Protect next turn and it's back to full HP and 1/4 of Zydog's HP is gone.
On Steel, you swap to Ferrothorn (Thank God Kartana is gone) or on Flying, you swap to Lando. It's not as cut and dry, obviously, but there are ways for Steel and Flying to play around it.
- Now here's the thing. The Immunity Core of Steel is just a huge pain to play against. It used to be SkarmTranSlash, now it's CelesTranSlash and it's still as annoying as ever, if not more annoying with Celesteela. The core Aegislash forms on Steel is just unhealthy. Whether it's double Protect between Aegislash and Celesteela or Triple Protect if you put it on Heatran, the counterplay to the core just disappears. The Steel player doesn't have to think, no real plays are being made. However, Aegislash, individually, isn't broken, the core it forms on Steel is broken. I feel like a strong case can be made for the re-introduction of the type ban on Aegislash. Yes, I know suggesting a type ban is a meme at this point. But, the tiering philosophy for Monotype does suggest if there is an extreme situation, it could be considered by the council.I'll briefly quote an article by scpinion:
" In August of 2015, the Monotype council unanimously voted to remove type bans from the Monotype tiering philosophy moving forward. At that time, Aegislash's type ban was grandfathered in because it wasn't deemed individually broken (i.e., Aegislash's ban from Steel teams centered around the cores it formed with other Pokémon, not the metagame's inability to check or counter the Pokémon individually). However, Aegislash's unique standing led to continued questions about the type ban policy, so the council decided to remove the inconsistency to prevent further confusion moving forward."
Source
Source
Again, I know throwing out a type-ban suggestion is frowned upon, but I truly feel there's still a case to be made for Aegislash if the council is open to it.
The council has no intentions of ever entertaining type bans again. That 2015 philosophy is outdated; if a Pokemon is deemed unhealthy on even just one type and that stems mainly from the core it forms with other Pokemon such as the case on Steel, it would get banned period even if it's not broken on its other type. Re-introducing type bans would be a setback for our tier and all the work put in to make Monotype official and help it grow. We'll probably edit out the "extreme situation" bit in the tiering philosophy so there's no confusion going forward.
I also wanted to briefly address this topic. Aegislash itself doesn't have to be broken for it to be banned. In fact, one could say it was never broken and that the primary reason for its ban in previous generations is the core it formed with Heatran and Skarmory / Celesteela which was deemed unhealthy. Time will tell whether this will be the case again but I just wanted to put it out there that it's a perfectly viable reason for Aegislash to be banned without being broken on its own.
I think the "extreme situation" part is more ambiguous than confusing. It begs the question of what would be the grounds of an extreme case that a type ban would solve. It's either expand on what would fulfill those circumstances or remove it completely. I'm pretty sure you guys will go with the latter to remove all doubts which is good.
I personally think that the Immunity Core it forms with Steel will never be healthy. Which should mean Aegislash really shouldn't be coming back every generation from here on out (except in cases where something like Heatran is excluded from the game for some period of time). Similar to how Shaymin-Sky will never come back because of how unhealthy it is.
I don't intend to make this entire discussion after the fourth wave of bans about Aegislash, it was just an interesting thought I wanted to bring up.
Just a quick thought on Steel's immunity core.
People keep saying that Aegislash is the one to ban of the Slash/Heat/Cele trio even though Aegislash's other type Ghost would greatly suffer from this loss. Imo Heatran is the one to ban, as pre-DLC people were finding ways to deal with Fire on Steel without Heatran , such as Heatproof Zong. Fire never really uses Heatran that often, as its generally a more offensively oriented type, bar Torkoal and Molters, so It wouldn't lament this loss like Ghost would with Slash. Banning Cele wouldn't change much either as Steel still has Corv and Skarmony. While Heatran itself is not broken, one of the three need to be banned and Heatran should be the one to go.
People keep saying that Aegislash is the one to ban of the Slash/Heat/Cele trio even though Aegislash's other type Ghost would greatly suffer from this loss. Imo Heatran is the one to ban, as pre-DLC people were finding ways to deal with Fire on Steel without Heatran , such as Heatproof Zong. Fire never really uses Heatran that often, as its generally a more offensively oriented type, bar Torkoal and Molters, so It wouldn't lament this loss like Ghost would with Slash. Banning Cele wouldn't change much either as Steel still has Corv and Skarmony. While Heatran itself is not broken, one of the three need to be banned and Heatran should be the one to go.