Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]

[Kaguya Lys]

Just a quick thought on Steel's immunity core.

People keep saying that Aegislash is the one to ban of the Slash/Heat/Cele trio even though Aegislash's other type Ghost would greatly suffer from this loss. Imo Heatran is the one to ban, as pre-DLC people were finding ways to deal with Fire on Steel without Heatran , such as Heatproof Zong. Fire never really uses Heatran that often, as its generally a more offensively oriented type, bar Torkoal and Molters, so It wouldn't lament this loss like Ghost would with Slash. Banning Cele wouldn't change much either as Steel still has Corv and Skarmony. While Heatran itself is not broken, one of the three need to be banned and Heatran should be the one to go.

I understand the logic you are trying to apply but I am not sure this is how bans work here. Since the council has made it clear that type bans are not an option, no compassion will be shown to types if a pokemon needs to go on another. Btw your argument can be compared to a potential reason why Zygarde 50% was banned because before people had to rely on things like Rhyperior and Flygon to deal with Corviknight; obviously this isn't the reason for its ban but I think you see my point. I also believe you aren't giving Aegislash enough credit. Besides taking out any sort of mind games on steel with double or triple protect cores, it is a fearsome Band/Specs/Setup Sweeper with priority and with that considered it is arguably more deadly than either Heatran or Celesteela. Would be unfortunate for ghost, but at least doublade sets might return

 

[TrulyDevious]

even though Aegislash's other type Ghost would greatly suffer from this loss.

that's not a reason to not ban anyone, just see watershifu, or hell even aegislash for the past 5 years

Fire never really uses Heatran that often, as its generally a more offensively oriented type,

252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 424-499 (59.3 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

honestly, I don't see why we'd choose heatran over aegislash. it'd be aegi > tran > flying in that order. individually none of them aren't busted at all, heatran is held back by being a bit slow and weak to ground and water, while aegislash is even slower and has to take a hit, plus the nerf to king's shield kinda hurt its viability. but between the two, aegislash has the far more cancerous typing, has less exploitable weakness, and its offensive sets are far more versatile and dangerous, aside from heatran which is mostly predictable. aegislash is much more dangerous and is harder to kill, and i would say it's a lot more restrictive on teambuilding, especially the pressure it puts on physical attackers with contact moves, which is like 90% of them.

also just use doublade lul

 

[Pedeath]

So, i real liked the g-slowking addition to the metagame, and i'd like to know what do you guys think about it. Would it be more worth it Psychic ? Bezause i'd really like to use it in Poison actually.

And what about the AV set? It has been putting some great work in UU and even OU. Do you guys think it might be good too in mono?

 

[roxie]

So, i real liked the g-slowking addition to the metagame, and i'd like to know what do you guys think about it. Would it be more worth it Psychic ? Bezause i'd really like to use it in Poison actually.

And what about the AV set? It has been putting some great work in UU and even OU. Do you guys think it might be good too in mono?

Sadly, Galarian Slowking is no where near "too good" or broken in Monotype as comparing its performance in different tiers does not seem efficient (considering its 2 different completely metagames) but reflecting on DLC 1 when Victini wasn't here, Mew has a Steelbreaker set with Nasty Plot + Fire Blast / Flamethrower to help with Steels ofc which formed a generic team of Mew / Hatterene / Indeedee / Slowbro / Jirachi / Alakazam and after exploring Galarian Slowbro's niche existence of being a Toxic Spike removal yet a slower steelbreaker (with Nasty Plot) I can see this working. My team was then composed of Galarian Slowbro / Indeedee / Hatterene / Jirachi / Celebi / Alakazam or Mew. You can see Galarian Slowbro in usage in MPL by 1TL here. But I can see this acting as a toxic spike removal as the metagame progresses but with things like Victini(new steel check) + Latias (best electric check) becoming more common, I feel like its less room for something like this. I would def not recommend Assault Vest as Heavy Duty Boots is overall the better item imo due to Psychic not having great hazard removal options or Colbur Berry. Block + Eerie Spell are some explorable options but I do recommend 44 Spe if you do try it out to at least outpace Toxapex as I am very picky about Galarian evs..lol

 

[smub]

So, i real liked the g-slowking addition to the metagame, and i'd like to know what do you guys think about it. Would it be more worth it Psychic ? Bezause i'd really like to use it in Poison actually.

And what about the AV set? It has been putting some great work in UU and even OU. Do you guys think it might be good too in mono?

On Psychic, I don't really think it offers too much defensively. Slowbro is already a great bulky pivot for Psychic teams that can also provide momentum with Teleport. Even if G-Slowking got Teleport(which it doesn't), an AV set wouldn't be able use it. The best it can really do for Psychic is, like G-Slowbro did for pre-DLC Psychic, removing Toxic Spikes on switch in. But Psychic is a lot less vulnerable to them now that the Lati twins are available for Defogging them away. Psychic also applies enough offensive pressure to the types that commonly use Toxic Spikes to make it not worth the trouble.

On Poison, it has the small niche of reliably coming in on both of Tapu Lele's STAB moves, and can heal up by switching if it happens to get hit by Shadow Ball. However, it's super hard to fit it on Poison teams currently, since the defensive core of Toxapex/Amoonguss/Ground Immunity(G-Weezing or Crobat)/Psychic immunity(Drapion or Skuntank) is pretty much necessary for it to function defensively. This leaves two slots for more flexible team options, but Pokemon such as Nidoking and Nihilego are extremely helpful to have for the common Steel and Flying teams. Running G-Slowking on top of such a large list of defensive mons would end up making the Poison team too passive, which isn't good in a metagame where many dangerous threats to Poison have returned(DDance KyuB, Tapu Lele, the Lati twins, Landorus, etc.)

 

[Pedeath]

Sadly, Galarian Slowking is no where near "too good" or broken in Monotype as comparing its performance in different tiers does not seem efficient (considering its 2 different completely metagames) but reflecting on DLC 1 when Victini wasn't here, Mew has a Steelbreaker set with Nasty Plot + Fire Blast / Flamethrower to help with Steels ofc which formed a generic team of Mew / Hatterene / Indeedee / Slowbro / Jirachi / Alakazam and after exploring Galarian Slowbro's niche existence of being a Toxic Spike removal yet a slower steelbreaker (with Nasty Plot) I can see this working. My team was then composed of Galarian Slowbro / Indeedee / Hatterene / Jirachi / Celebi / Alakazam or Mew. You can see Galarian Slowbro in usage in MPL by 1TL here. But I can see this acting as a toxic spike removal as the metagame progresses but with things like Victini(new steel check) + Latias (best electric check) becoming more common, I feel like its less room for something like this. I would def not recommend Assault Vest as Heavy Duty Boots is overall the better item imo due to Psychic not having great hazard removal options or Colbur Berry. Block + Eerie Spell are some explorable options but I do recommend 44 Spe if you do try it out to at least outpace Toxapex as I am very picky about Galarian evs..lol

On Psychic, I don't really think it offers too much defensively. Slowbro is already a great bulky pivot for Psychic teams that can also provide momentum with Teleport. Even if G-Slowking got Teleport(which it doesn't), an AV set wouldn't be able use it. The best it can really do for Psychic is, like G-Slowbro did for pre-DLC Psychic, removing Toxic Spikes on switch in. But Psychic is a lot less vulnerable to them now that the Lati twins are available for Defogging them away. Psychic also applies enough offensive pressure to the types that commonly use Toxic Spikes to make it not worth the trouble.

On Poison, it has the small niche of reliably coming in on both of Tapu Lele's STAB moves, and can heal up by switching if it happens to get hit by Shadow Ball. However, it's super hard to fit it on Poison teams currently, since the defensive core of Toxapex/Amoonguss/Ground Immunity(G-Weezing or Crobat)/Psychic immunity(Drapion or Skuntank) is pretty much necessary for it to function defensively. This leaves two slots for more flexible team options, but Pokemon such as Nidoking and Nihilego are extremely helpful to have for the common Steel and Flying teams. Running G-Slowking on top of such a large list of defensive mons would end up making the Poison team too passive, which isn't good in a metagame where many dangerous threats to Poison have returned(DDance KyuB, Tapu Lele, the Lati twins, Landorus, etc.)

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

 

[QY_CS]

Just a quick thought on Steel's immunity core.

People keep saying that Aegislash is the one to ban of the Slash/Heat/Cele trio even though Aegislash's other type Ghost would greatly suffer from this loss. Imo Heatran is the one to ban, as pre-DLC people were finding ways to deal with Fire on Steel without Heatran , such as Heatproof Zong. Fire never really uses Heatran that often, as its generally a more offensively oriented type, bar Torkoal and Molters, so It wouldn't lament this loss like Ghost would with Slash. Banning Cele wouldn't change much either as Steel still has Corv and Skarmony. While Heatran itself is not broken, one of the three need to be banned and Heatran should be the one to go.

Edit: By agree I mean agreeing with the fact that Heatran is the better mon to banned over Aegislash. I don't really agree with all of the claims obviously, like considering their viability in Fire and Ghost are pretty irrelevant.
I generally agree with it. Here's a few reasons and thoughts i would like to give:
1. There are many more ways for steel to deal with fire attacks than heatran. Heatran is just the least brain-consuming choice to go for, especially when it runs protect. The loss of heatran will for sure make fire an even worse mu than it already is, but will not make other types with fire coverage much more deadly.
2. Aegislash was proven not to be a problem during the pre-dlc period, where steel performed very acceptably without rediculous mu's against other types.
3. With the removal of aegislash, most pokemons eqipped with fighting type coverage will be easily able to break through steel without much effort, giving steel very unfavorable mu's. (More of a general experience from me, as in games I've had this gen and previous gens, the lack of aegislash usually leaves scizor-mega as the only answer to fighting type attacks)
4. If you read till here and are still reading, heres a little side note: Metronome Battle used to have an interesting ban called "the combination of Shedinja and Sturdy is banned". Maybe there can be something like "The combination of Heatran and Aegislash is banned?" idk probs not but just to point out a technically possible solution

Edit:
As for the 3rd point, I'm trying to point out the necesity of aegislash in blocking fighting type coverage from not necesarily fighting teams, but more from the teams which steel already has a struggle against, such as keldeo from water and zeraora from electric.

 

[Namranan]

Hello again monotypers! Another week of the tundra tour has passed and I will document some of the noticeable trends that have occurred since my last post.

This time the banned things in this round were Kartana and Damp Rock.

Also thanks once again to Ticken and his friend Milak for making this spreadsheet easily accessible and informative.

Type:	Winrate:	Games used this week: (Compared to last week)	Trends & changes from last week:	Notable matches:
Bug	33.33% (unchanged)	0 (3)	N/a (No Games)	N/a
Dark	33.33% (16.67% decrease)	1 (2)	N/a (not enough matches to tell a trend from)	N/a (only match was a loss)
Dragon	50% (unchanged)	12 (30)	* Much higher lati twin usage * Higher Zygarde-10% usage * Special Dragapult sets are popping up again	yami vs Frol1 Hys vs Sensei Axew
Electric	40% (5.45% decrease)	8 (22)	* Zapdos + Rotom-Wash core is very prevalent now * Abysmal winrate this round (won 2 out of 8 matches)	anttya vs Jordy
Fairy	51.85% (6.48% decrease)	15 (12)	* Two common archetypes seem to be common. There's tapuspam with Lele, Koko, Bulu usually partnered by Mimikyu, Azumarill, and Klefki; and Koko Bulu with Primarina or Hatterene with Mimikyu, Azumarill, and Klefki.	Ridley vs Giove97 yami vs Frol1
Fighting	55.56% (1.58% decrease)	2 (7)	* Terrakion is seeing usage again.	tjay vs McSim
Fire	28.57% (0.84% decrease)	10 (17)	* A lot of Rotom-heat usage this round * Most teams are leaning on Bulky Offense rather than hard HO * Common replacement for Blaziken seems to be a bulky mon like Incineroar, Rotom-H, or Heatran on most teams.	N/A only winning replay was vs Grass
Flying	51.35% (1.35% increase)	17 (20)	* Offensive archetypes like Hyper Offense and Rain seem to be the most popular way to run the type.	Perish Song vs Fakee Choco vs Ronman Peachyclouds vs dNeon Attitude adjuster vs KiwiCarnivore
Ghost	43.75% (3.75% increase)	6 (10)	N/a (no real shifts or trends)	Bondie vs RichardPepper Jolly Togekiss vs jonfilch
Grass	66.67% (unchanged)	3 (3)	N/a (not enough games to determine trends with)	N/a (only good replays were vs Ground)
Ground	33.33% (9.80% increase)	7 (17)	N/a (No noticable trends or shifts)	Anttya vs Jordy
Ice	40% (6.67% increase)	2 (3)	N/a (Not enough games to determine trends with)	N/a (Only good replay was vs Flying)
Normal	100% (unchanged)	0 (1)	N/a (No games)	N/a
Poison	50% (50% decrease)	3 (1)	* Amoonguss is seeing more usage than Crobat	Fylkir Pudin vs Thetacoman
Psychic	71.43% (4.67% increase)	5 (9)	* Winningly consistently * Complete dropoff of Indeedee usage * Slowking-galar is popping up	Luckypiper vs Zugubu Royale Metariolu7 vs Smub Perish Song vs Fakee
Rock	62.50% (2.50% increase)	3 (5)	N/a (No notable changes)	Fylkir Pudin vs The tacoman Crashy vs Ara
Steel	60.32% (0.32% increase)	18 (45)	* Rising melmetal usage	N/a Most notable replays had Kartana on it
Water	50.98% (1.96% increase)	17 (34)	* More balance teams are popping up, but rain is still the dominant archetype	Anttya vs Jordy Floss vs Electric Win

 

[AnonymousPulsar]

1. There are many more ways for steel to deal with fire attacks than heatran. Heatran is just the least brain-consuming choice to go for, especially when it runs protect. The loss of heatran will for sure make fire an even worse mu than it already is, but will not make other types with fire coverage much more deadly.

While, I agree steel has other ways to deal with fire-type attacks, heatran is the only consistent way to deal with fire teams as scarf charizard and volcarona are the biggest threats against steel. The best alternatives to heatran are heatproof bronzong and stakataka. Both of which are walled by torkoal and must be kept healthy. With both their recovery being limited to leftovers, these are very unreliably against fire teams.

3. With the removal of aegislash, most pokemons eqipped with fighting type coverage will be easily able to break through steel without much effort, giving steel very unfavorable mu's. (More of a general experience from me, as in games I've had this gen and previous gens, the lack of aegislash usually leaves scizor-mega as the only answer to fighting type attacks)

This is simply not true. Steel has multiple options to deal with fighting which include corviknight, celesteela, skarmory, bronzong, metagross and the one you mentioned, scizor. All of which have sets that can work well against fighting teams and especially fighting-types while still performing decently in other match ups.

 

[QY_CS]

While, I agree steel has other ways to deal with fire-type attacks, heatran is the only consistent way to deal with fire teams as scarf charizard and volcarona are the biggest threats against steel. The best alternatives to heatran are heatproof bronzong and stakataka. Both of which are walled by torkoal and must be kept healthy. With both their recovery being limited to leftovers, these are very unreliably against fire teams.

Steel having heatran doesn't really help ease the fire mu anyways, if fire team pays little attention to it and use sets that target heatran. (with the addition of cinderace and scorching sands, this had just been easier) imo it is much more relevant (and annoying) against types which have fire coverage.

This is simply not true. Steel has multiple options to deal with fighting which include corviknight, celesteela, skarmory, bronzong, metagross and the one you mentioned, scizor. All of which have sets that can work well against fighting teams and especially fighting-types while still performing decently in other match ups.

I might have been unclear when I explained, but by that I meant its general ineffectiveness against fighting coverages from pokemons, rather than fighting type itself. such examples would include specs keldeo (for water), band zeraora (close combat), etc. making already unfavorable mu's for steel even less tolerable. Thanks for the note tho, I will edit my previous post to make it clear

 

[mushamu]

Edit: By agree I mean agreeing with the fact that Heatran is the better mon to banned over Aegislash. I don't really agree with all of the claims obviously, like considering their viability in Fire and Ghost are pretty irrelevant.
I generally agree with it. Here's a few reasons and thoughts i would like to give:
1. There are many more ways for steel to deal with fire attacks than heatran. Heatran is just the least brain-consuming choice to go for, especially when it runs protect. The loss of heatran will for sure make fire an even worse mu than it already is, but will not make other types with fire coverage much more deadly.
2. Aegislash was proven not to be a problem during the pre-dlc period, where steel performed very acceptably without rediculous mu's against other types.
3. With the removal of aegislash, most pokemons eqipped with fighting type coverage will be easily able to break through steel without much effort, giving steel very unfavorable mu's. (More of a general experience from me, as in games I've had this gen and previous gens, the lack of aegislash usually leaves scizor-mega as the only answer to fighting type attacks)
4. If you read till here and are still reading, heres a little side note: Metronome Battle used to have an interesting ban called "the combination of Shedinja and Sturdy is banned". Maybe there can be something like "The combination of Heatran and Aegislash is banned?" idk probs not but just to point out a technically possible solution

1. To put it it bluntly, Steel loses to Fire attacks without Heatran. Your "Fire resist" before DLC 2 was essentially specially defensive Corviknight, which you had to rely on in order to take weaker attacks like Indeedee's Mystical Fire, Dragapult's Fire Blast and Hydreigon's Flamethrower, and had to otherwise pretty much try and check Pokemon with Fire coverage offensively. Bronzong existed, but it is a niche option at best that could be worn down and was extremely hard to fit on teams due to its passivity and overlap with other defensive Steel-type Pokemon. Choice Scarf Cobalion with Stone Edge dealt with certain ones like Charizard with Flamethrower and Volcarona with Fire Blast, but it's a struggle for Steel to deal with in the long run and requires a lot more outplaying. Now in DLC 2 era, there are even more stronger Pokemon released that carry Fire moves like Victini, Zapdos, Moltres, Latios, and Blacephalon that all have the ability to dismantle Steel.

2. I am not saying Aegislash is unhealthy right now, but DLC 2 is an entirely new metagame, and something being healthy in DLC 1 doesn't mean it will still remain healthy in DLC 2 era. Terrain Extender was tame in the DLC 1 metagame, but now that Monotype has access to more strong terrain setters in Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele, as well as stronger backbones to support those Pokemon, types like Electric and Psychic were deemed to be too strong with Terrain Extender, so it was banned in order to balance the metagame. In Aegislash's case, you have to consider that part of a Pokemon's viability is the team support it gets access to. It's a reason as to why certain Pokemon are allowed in Monotype but banned from OU. In the DLC 1 metagame, Aegislash was a fantastic Pokemon that shared a crippling weakness to common Fire-type attacks, along with the rest of Steel. This could be abused and exploited by many Pokemon that had strong Fire moves to easily break Steel teams, Aegislash included. Heatran fixes that, and it is possible that it pushes already extremely dangerous Pokemon like Aegislash over the edge; now that it does not have to worry about Fire-type attacks it can fully preform to the best of its ability with the rest of its Steel teams covering up its other weaknesses alongside having great mixed stats, ability, and defensive typing.

3. This isn't true either. Steel has plenty of good Fighting-type switchins in Celesteela, Corviknight, and Skarmory even if Aegislash gets banned. Jirachi can also check Fighting-type Pokemon offensively, giving even more counterplay against these types of Pokemon. Celesteela was also a primary switchin to Fighting attacks alongside Mega Scizor last generation, not that it is relevant in today's metagame.

4. We're not doing this as it falls in line with the reason we don't do type (and other complex) bans: consistency. Type bans are a form of complex bans that essentially is just banning a Pokemon from being paired with its good team partners. The same can be applied to other tiers like OU, where you could ban Mega Sableye from being paired with Pokemon from stall teams but not balanced or offensive teams if you were to use ORAS OU as an example, which is of course, ridiculous. Implementing bans where a Pokemon is only banned from being paired with its good partners will be avoided as a whole when they only make the rules harder to understand and forfeit legitimacy for an official tier as a result.

I personally do not have an opinion on whether Aegislash is unhealthy or not since I would still like more time in order to observe the type without Kartana and Magearna, as well as Damp Rock's removal making the matchup against Rain teams doable. Pokemon like Urshifu-R and Melmetal have higher priority than Aegislash in my eyes, while Aegislash feels like more of a Pokemon that can turn out to be ridiculous when the metagame fleshed out more. However, I believe that Aegislash should be the aspect of Steel that should be looked at; a Ghost typing is incredible both offensively and defensively especially when paired with its amazing stats and ability. Its bulk allows it to live many super effective attacks bar a select few such as Alolan Marowak's Poltergeist and Urshifu-S's Wicked Blow. Being able to survive something like Landorus's Life Orb and Sheer Force boosted Earth Power as well as many other weaker attacks and put it on a timer with Toxic for the rest of the match is impressive. Throw King's Shield's ability to not only scout attacks but punish physical attackers and you've got a very effective status spreader that is really hard to deal with once it gets behind a Substitute, or a really threatening offensive Pokemon to take advantage of Ghost-type STAB being amazing combined with its other coverage options. The last thing I want to say is to leave behind the DLC 1 metagame completely when thinking about how to balance out DLC 2. There's a good reason as to why the Monotype council unbanned aspects of the metagame like Urshifu-R and Melmetal that were previously unhealthy for the DLC 1 metagame moving forward; we want to start afresh with tiering this one since this metagame will be completely different than what we experienced beforehand.

 

[Zane0144]

I find this ongoing conversation about Heatran vs Aegislash very unhealthy. A ban should never be made on the question "what will hurt the type less".

The ONLY questions you should be asking yourself are
1. Is Heatran broken with steel support
2. Is Aegislash broken with steel support

 

[Pedeath]

that is definittly something that might need more conversation and time.
there is no hurry. Heatran just came out

 

[bea]

I haven't gotten to play around with Steel/Ice/Dragon More than I would like to, what makes people believe that Melmetal and Kyurem-Black have crossed the line and are broken?

 

[Attribute]

Fifth Wave of Quickbans:

The Monotype council has voted to ban the following in this wave:
- Kyurem-B

- Smooth Rock

Reasoning

Kyurem-B has once again proven to be a big threat in SS Monotype as a result of its high Attack and access to Dragon Dance paired with moves such as Icicle Spear and Fusion Bolt allowing it to become a dangerous sweeper and hit the majority of the metagame. Its great natural bulk gives it plenty of opportunities to set up, especially with Aurora Veil support from Alolan Ninetales on Ice, and screens support from Duraludon or Dragapult on Dragon. This also makes it harder to revenge kill by common Choice Scarf users because in most cases Kyurem-B can live a hit and Dragon Dance again. Kyurem-B can also run Substitute to avoid status from Pokemon like Toxapex and Galarian Corsola and use them as setup fodder, and Roost to recover HP, making it much harder to handle for most teams. In addition, Kyurem-B can run other viable sets to catch the opponent off guard such as a mixed wallbreaker with Freeze Dry, or Freeze Shock with Power Herb allowing it to KO bulky Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Hatterene. Types such as Electric, Flying, Water, Poison, Grass, and Ground have slim counter play to Kyurem-B, while most of the remaining types always have to play on edge and not put themselves in a position where Kyurem-B can win. Its ability to dominate the majority of the metagame and the lack of defensive counter play has led to its ban.

Smooth Rock, while being nowhere near as threatening as Damp Rock and only having one abuser, has been deemed unhealthy in the Monotype metagame because it gives Excadrill too many turns to get going with Swords Dance, and removes the urgency to switch it in and make use of the sand turns before it subsides. There's not a lot of Pokemon that can check the combination of Earthquake and Iron Head, especially with Gravity support from Landorus. In addition Excadrill can also use Rapid Spin on a weakened foe to further raise its Speed for when the sandstorm subsides or to avoid being revenge killed by fast Scarf users that would outspeed it in sand such as Dragapult. For these reasons the council has decided to ban Smooth Rock.

Vote Breakdown:

Tagging The Immortal Kris to implement, thanks!

Watchlist:
Melmetal, Aegislash, Zygarde-10%, Landorus-I

 

[TrulyDevious]

for the first time in like 6 years aegislash is here to stay, this is bigger than the US election

 

[Ronman5]

for the first time in like 6 years aegislash is here to stay, this is bigger than the US election

It’s on the watchlist, I wouldn’t be saying that way too soon...

although this is like the first time in years it’s legal in OU... I think it’s still useable in UU rn too

 

[Black Rabbit]

The loss of hidden power indirectly and effectively gave steel a buff, which steel has been capitalizing with the dubious heatran, aegislash, and ferrothorn/celesteela core that covers each others' weaknesses. Ferrothorn and celesteela can apply pressure with residiual chip damage and aegislash can scout with king's shield and sub and wear away teams that does not have the necessary counterplay with toxic. This lack of counterplay is inherent given the lack of hidden power and the checks steel offers. I personally don't think aegislash is staying, as it's the most centralizing in steel's core given its insane resistances with only 4 weaknesses and 2 neutral resists.

As for lando-I, I do believe it's not broken by itself, but it is with the backbone flying grants. I do say it's the least broken at the moment given the other blatantly obvious broken things. However, the loss of hidden power also gave flying a buff as well. For example, electric suffers from this loss and so does tapu koko on fairy, which explains the decline of tapu koko on fairy. Some might say, "So what? Just create a counterplay to lando-I????" Well, flying dons an impeccable core that is balanced but not broken and is able to maintain momentum by foregoing hazard control for HDB and having a lot of u-turn/volt users. Landorus-I can easily take control of the momentum and wither away teams with STAB earth power and its coverages. Most neutral/SE non-STAB hits are either 2HKOS. While 2HKO'ing doesn't look broken, it's the team support flying offers lando-I that allows it to stay almost ubiquitous during the match and the reliable pivots lando-I can switch to only to switch back again.

The meta is premature at the moment, but I do see lando-I being a growing threat later in the meta.

 

[Namranan]

Hello Monotypers, today I am presenting round 3 results for the Crown Tundra tournament. Lets take a look at some new trends and whatnot that have happened this week. S/o again to Ticken and Milak for making this spreadsheet happen. Look here for their post and please give it a like!

Bans this week were Kyurem-black and Smooth Rock

Type:	Winrate:	Games used this week: (compared to last week) [Compared to the week before]	Trends & changes from previous weeks:	Notable matches:
Bug	33% (no change)	0 (0) [3]	N/A (no games)	N/a
Dark	33% (no change)	3 (1) [2]	* Now have enough games to confirm that Zarude is common. * Bulky offense is also the preferred playstyle for it	adjustments vs Bushtush
Dragon	54.90% (4.90% increase)	9 (12) [30]	* Some dragonites are using dual wingbeat now	xHys vs imjustgray King Choco vs Dieu Amphibien Zugubu royale vs Kaif
Electric	36.84% (3.16% decrease)	8 (8) [22]	* Zapdos sets seem to come in two flavors: Substitute or Defog. * Rotom-wash is typically defog when Zapdos is running a Substitute set.	Decem vs RichardPepper King Choco vs Dieu Amphibien
Fairy	51.72% (0.13% decrease)	2 (15) [12]	* MASSIVE dropoff in overall usage.	N/a (only win was vs Dragon)
Fighting	63.64% (8.08% increase)	2 (2) [7]	N/a (Not enough games to tell trends with)	Dya vs Insector84
Fire	31.82% (3.25% increase)	1 (10) [17]	* Significant dropoff in usage	Havens vs Vodoom
Flying	51.06% (0.26% decrease)	10 (17) [20]	* Thundy-T was on almost every team this week. Sets varied from double dance to Choice Scarf. * Balance seems to have become the preferred playstyle after the damp rock ban. * Skarmory and Celesteela are the most popular steel-flying types.	Havens vs Vodoom tjay vs brumirage
Ghost	51.85% (8.10% increase)	10 (6) [10]	* Very popular this round compared to previous rounds * Calm Mind Blacephalon is seeing usage * Spectrier's most common set is choiced (specs or scarf is unclear as of right now). * Most popular rocker is Corsola, with palosand being second.	Bushtush vs RindaOkami Prepubescent vs Peachyclouds
Grass	71.43% (10.68% increase)	1 (3) [3]	N/a (not enough games to tell a trend with)	Havens vs Vodoom
Ground	39.29% (5.96% increase)	4 (7) [17]	* Ubiquitous Zygarde-10% usage this round * Sandless was used and won both of its games, potentially a new usable archetype.	Adjustments vs Jordy Seo vs Insector84
Ice	25% (15% decrease)	2 (2) [3]	* Enough usage now to confirm that hail is the most popular way to run it, beyond that it is still unclear what is popular on this type aside from Darm-galar and Ninetales-alola.	N/a (All replays are losses)
Normal	50% (50% decrease)	1 (0) [1]	N/a (Not enough data)	N/a (All replays are losses)
Poison	40% (10% decrease)	1 (3) [1]	N/a (Not enough data)	N/a (All replays are losses)
Psychic	60% (11.43% decrease)	11 (5) [9]	* Record usage for the type * Both latis are getting a ton of usage, sometimes even run on the same team * Latios is seeing use as both a scarfer and a Calm Mind sweeper, while Latias is always Scarf. * Choice Specs is the most popular set on Tapu Lele, most of which also carry Shadow ball and Focus Blast as coverage moves * Psyshock is being used more overall to most likely (probably) beat nihilego and the rare blissey. * Victini is using its Physical sets again, special sets have dropped off almost completely.	jon corleone vs Attitude Adjuster Bushtush vs RindaOkami
Rock	63.64% (1.14% increase)	3 (3) [5]	N/a (Literally was just the same guy using the same team for all three games)	Fylkir Pudin vs Makis Fox Fylkir Pudin vs Makis Fox
Steel	53.42% (6.90% decrease)	9 (18) [45]	* Horrible winrate this round only winning 2 games out of 9 and one was a mirror.	N/a (Only winning replay was vs ice, nothing amazing I promise)
Water	54.25% (3.27% increase)	7 (17) [34]	* Balance teams with Slowking are the preferred way to run the type * Massive increase in fat mons like Slowking, Tapu Fini and Swampert * Tapu Fini tends to be Calm Mind or a support set.	Metariolu7 vs Yami Rotteninfernape vs Rap Yogurt

 

[roxie]

Previously, Melmetal was banned and you can find some arguments by community members like Waszap, maroon, Jahkem, Fylkir Pudin, and Jolly Togekiss. We can all pretty much agree that Melmetal's main item is Choice Band which can 2HKO bulky walls like Corviknight, Toxapex, Celesteela, or Ferrothorn with Double Iron Head Bash + Earthquake. Also having other notable coverage moves like Superpower, Thunder Punch, and even Facade for status ailments makes this thing a beast. I personally do not feel like Melmetal is a staple on Steel-teams but that does not exclude the immensive power it outputs inside of battle. I do feel like a lot of typings have improved their matchups against Melmetal and calling this as broken is a bit premmature.

Melmetal Type Analysis

Bug
Bug overall seems pretty bad considering Volcarona is hard walled by Heatran at the moment due to its lack of Ground coverage and Buzzwole being countered by Celesteela's Flamethrower or even worse, Air Slash. The Steel vs Bug matchup has caused Centiskorch to get more usage with RestTalk + Fire coverage or even Scorching Sands that fishes for Heatran specifically. Even with Melmetal gone, Bug vs Steel will still be one-sided.

Dark
:incineroar + Knock Off. Hydreigon has always been a nice steelbreaker with Nasty Plot + Flamethrower/Fire Blast as it sets up on passive pokemon like Ferrothorn and Aegislash or even more Pokemon like Celesteela, Corviknight, or Heatran with the support of Grimmsnarl's Dual Screens. Urshifu can still heavily chip this as you can see with this calc: +1 252 Atk Urshifu Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 432-510 (91.5 - 108%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock , Melmetal is OHKOd after a Bulk Up. Choice Band and Life Orb Urshifu sets can be seen more in use but that was just featuring your standard Black Glasses Urshifu. Incineroar was used at the beginning of Monotype when both Kyurem-Black and Melmetal were here as it has useful Knock Off Utility + Parting Shot to bring in your neighboring abusers/wallbreakers via Hydreigon and Urshifu to improve the matchup. Incineroar also has access to Flare Blitz and Overheat so I feel like its worth exploring once again. With various mentions above, Dark has a good chance against Steel.

Dragon
Dragapult with Choice Specs Fire Blast is nice but since Heatran is here, you have to think out your turns more rather than spam Fire moves vs Steel type. Kommo-o doesn't KO Melmetal sadly but it can potentially improve the Steel matchup or even as a lead with Body Press + Flamethrower. Choice Band Dracovish is 2HKOd by Melmetal's DIHB but with a calc below, you can notice it OHKOs Melmetal after some chip. Hydreigon with Choice Specs Fire Blast + Focus Blast should see some more usage while +2 Garchomp KOs this. Garchomp would probably need something like Fire Fang to hit Ferrothorn + Corviknight/Celesteela effectively though. This matchup on paper seems pretty winnable
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 466-550 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 480-566 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 390-460 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Electric
Electric does not seem to have problems with Melmetal on paper especially with Heat Wave Zapdos. Choice Band or Bulk Up Zeraora helps a lot versus Steel althought it may need +3 to KO this. Rotom-Heat is a direct counter for Melmetal but isn't really needed but throwing it out there. Magnezone can still trap Steel-type Pokemon and I doubt Melmetal will have much intentions of spamming Superpower in that matchup. Finishing this off with Focus Blast Pokemon like patches this argument up.

Fairy
Fairy needs screens up to even have a chance against this matchup. Azumarill with Knock Off is nice for getting rid of Melmetal's item or even statusing this with Primarina forces it to use Facade or a weakened DIHB in combat. Tapu Bulu with SD/Close Combat/High Horsepower/Horn Leech allows it to act as a direct steelbreaker while Clefable has Fire Blast Coverage. The Tapu Bulu sets are kinda everywhere between Choice Scarf, SD Zen Headbutt (lol just run HH) and I feel like the mentioned set above is the best. Fairy is still a little underplayed but starting out with a general squad like Tapu Bulu/Klefki/Clefable/Azumarill should do the trick.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 546-645 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 393-463 (83.2 - 98%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 481-567 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fighting
I feel like its a number of ways you can chip Melmetal with Fighting but the main thing is + potentially causing Fighting havoc if not played right. LO Urshifu, Scald(after chip) or Focus Blast Keldeo, Thunder Wave/Focus Blast Cobalion, and neighboring teammates like or can do a lot.

Fire

Flying
Tornadus is able to get rid of Melmetal's Choice Band and survive and pivot out with u-turn. Zapdos and Skarmory can come in and recover pretty easily thanks to Roost. Landorus with Gravity helps a lot with Steel or just FB + EP if its not Gravity. Other notable mentions are with Flamethrower + Scorching Sands , with Focus Blast, and with Flamethrower with both defensive and offensive sets.

Ghost
Specs Spectrier can threaten Steel as a whole after some chip on a mon while Blacephalon does the same when Heatran is chipped. Alolan Marowak KOs Melmetal after Stealth Rock with Flare Blitz and isn't completely walled by Heatran. Galarian Corsola just status's this and recovers with Strength Sap. Can even creep Melmetal if you are worried about it with 48 Spe.

Grass
Don't flame me for mentioning Tangrowth lol but I seen Chaitanya use it before and its the first thing that comes to mind. It has useful utility like Knock Off and Sleep Powder which seems to do decently vs Steel on paper. This also supports Zarude on using its steelbreaker set: Bulk Up / Drain Punch / Darkest Lariat since its asleep. Knock Off Pokemon in general like can get rid of its CB.

Ground

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 647-764 (137 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ice
Sadly, Melmetal makes Veil look like a thin piece of paper and with Heatran here, Galarian Darmanitan isn't as able to just spam Fire Punch/Flare Blitz. The matchup overall seems to be "get Ferrothorn out so" can sweep.
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 456-538 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Normal
With the likes of and is seems harder for Bewear to pose a stronger threat against steel. But Bewear is ok with Bulk Up I feel but Choice Band was used at the beginning of Monotype. Choice Specs Heliolisk is pretty much 50/50s with Focus Blast(if it lands) or Thunderbolt/Dark Pulse for the Aegislash switchin. Obstagoon gets rid of its item while Diggersby has Earthquake and Fire Punch. This matchup seems very tough but will it improve with Melmetal gone? Yes, but Celesteela + Aegislash + Cobalion still poses a threat against Normal.

Poison
Nidoking is the best steelbreaker Poison has and Earth Power OHKOs this. Knock Off Drapion and Toxapex exists and statusing this does not seem like the best route unless you have something like but otherwise Facade is pretty spammable if there if none. This matchup seems pretty 50/50 to me.

Psychic
Nasty Plot Fire Blast Mew was originally used as the steelbreaker and now with SpA attacking Victini, that matchup has improved tremendously. Kudos on Decem for is creative Steelbreaker Victini set with Blue Flare/Scorching/Sub/Glaciate.
252 SpA Victini Blue Flare vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 504-594 (106.7 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rock
I seen a few ladder games with Terrakion and Lycanroc Dusk doing a lot versus Melmetal Steel but Rock overall just never seems to have a fair matchup. Perhaps positioning SD LO Terrakion in the right place. The Rock vs Steel mu will improve slightly when Melmetal is gone but critical play will still be required.

Steel
issa mirror

Water
Urshifu, Keldeo, CC Barraskewda, and Dracovish all do a lot vs Steel and everything resists its STAB pretty much

After analyzing all the matchups with Melmetal, I came to a conclusion that Ice, Normal, and Rock will have some problems with Melmetal. Ice, Normal, and Rock are some anti-meta or underused types but all overall will require more critical play with Melmetal in the tier or out the tier. I do not feel like Melmetal is team limiting in anyway and I am going to go with DO NOT BAN on this. I do not mind a suspect on this but DLC 2 has brung a lot of types up, how do you all feel about Melmetal in the current metagame, I've been seeing a lot of complaints so whynot bring it up to discussion.​

 

[Black Rabbit]

Fairy
Fairy needs screens up to even have a chance against this matchup. Azumarill with Knock Off is nice for getting rid of Melmetal's item or even statusing this with Primarina forces it to use Facade or a weakened DIHB in combat. Tapu Bulu with SD/Close Combat/High Horsepower/Horn Leech allows it to act as a direct steelbreaker while Clefable has Fire Blast Coverage. The Tapu Bulu sets are kinda everywhere between Choice Scarf, SD Zen Headbutt (lol just run HH) and I feel like the mentioned set above is the best. Fairy is still a little underplayed but starting out with a general squad like Tapu Bulu/Klefki/Clefable/Azumarill should do the trick.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 546-645 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 393-463 (83.2 - 98%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 481-567 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
​

​

I think you made some good points for some of the other types, but I think you're giving too much credit to fairy in theory. Games with melmetal tend to lead with melmetal because it can KO every fairy besides the ones that neutrally resist its STAB under screen.

Fairy Checks

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 160-188 (50.3 - 59.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini through Reflect: 150-176 (43.6 - 51.1%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill through Reflect: 250-294 (73 - 85.9%) -- approx. 2HKO

Klefki is already a 2HKO under screens. You're forced to pick a sack. You pick Azumarill, it's no longer a threat to steel because of how much Double Iron Bash does to it to reducing its HP to less or almost half, and Ferrothorn can come in to absorb knock off. You pick tapu fini, it's a 3HKO with max HP/DEF, but you can't cripple it with scald and can only reduce half of its HP with Nature's Madness. Though I also can't speak because of insufficient data and only ladder data, CM Tapu Fini has seem to be the new trend. Anything else dies.

Let's say you have a free switch to Clefable, as you say it can KO Melmetal. Heatran can come in and sponge everything besides Focus Blast-- which is a 25% to kill a non-defensive Heatran-- from a LO Clefable. Fitting this Clefable set with Focus Blast either means you give up SR or psychic, which would be the more most likely substitute. At this point of the game, you don't have light screen, and you're subjecting clefable to taking considerable damage from trap Heatran only for Excadrill to finish Clefable off with a revenge kill. Now of couse, you can always switch Clefable out to another check, but then Melmetal can switch onto that.

As for Tapu Bulu, any player who knows that Tapu Bulu can learn High Horespower and Close Combat would know that Celesteela/Corviknight/Skarmory is the safe check to Tapu Bulu, as Tapu bulu sets up SD. Being as Celesteela seems the more popular choice:

Tapu Bulu v Celesteela

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Celesteela: 285-335 (71.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's a 2HKO, and Celesteela can do:

Celesteela v Tapu Bulu

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu through Reflect: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Which puts Tapu Bulu in range of Excadrill.

Now we can go on with all the possible outcomes, but my point is, Melmetal just shreds fairy up and steel already has a core to switch to. Steel just carries an absurd pressure against fairy and other types that cannot sponge a SE Double Bash Iron. These sets that kill melmetal as you said are good in theory, but your argument is flawed when you don't factor in what else Steel has. This isn't a 1v1 match. Fairy with SCREENS being helpless against steel should kinda give you an idea of what other types that are weak to Steel are going through tbh.

 

[Ninjamage]

​

I think you made some good points for some of the other types, but I think you're giving too much credit to fairy in theory. Games with melmetal tend to lead with melmetal because it can KO every fairy besides the ones that neutrally resist its STAB under screen.

Fairy Checks

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 160-188 (50.3 - 59.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini through Reflect: 150-176 (43.6 - 51.1%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill through Reflect: 250-294 (73 - 85.9%) -- approx. 2HKO

Klefki is already a 2HKO under screens. You're forced to pick a sack. You pick Azumarill, it's no longer a threat to steel because of how much Double Iron Bash does to it to reducing its HP to less or almost half, and Ferrothorn can come in to absorb knock off. You pick tapu fini, it's a 3HKO with max HP/DEF, but you can't cripple it with scald and can only reduce half of its HP with Nature's Madness. Though I also can't speak because of insufficient data and only ladder data, CM Tapu Fini has seem to be the new trend. Anything else dies.

Let's say you have a free switch to Clefable, as you say it can KO Melmetal. Heatran can come in and sponge everything besides Focus Blast-- which is a 25% to kill a non-defensive Heatran-- from a LO Clefable. Fitting this Clefable set with Focus Blast either means you give up SR or psychic, which would be the more most likely substitute. At this point of the game, you don't have light screen, and you're subjecting clefable to taking considerable damage from trap Heatran only for Excadrill to finish Clefable off with a revenge kill. Now of couse, you can always switch Clefable out to another check, but then Melmetal can switch onto that.

As for Tapu Bulu, any player who knows that Tapu Bulu can learn High Horespower and Close Combat would know that Celesteela/Corviknight/Skarmory is the safe check to Tapu Bulu, as Tapu bulu sets up SD. Being as Celesteela seems the more popular choice:

Tapu Bulu v Celesteela

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Celesteela: 285-335 (71.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's a 2HKO, and Celesteela can do:

Celesteela v Tapu Bulu

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu through Reflect: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Which puts Tapu Bulu in range of Excadrill.

Now we can go on with all the possible outcomes, but my point is, Melmetal just shreds fairy up and steel already has a core to switch to. Steel just carries an absurd pressure against fairy and other types that cannot sponge a SE Double Bash Iron. These sets that kill melmetal as you said are good in theory, but your argument is flawed when you don't factor in what else Steel has. This isn't a 1v1 match. Fairy with SCREENS being helpless against steel should kinda give you an idea of what other types that are weak to Steel are going through tbh.

While I do think Melmetal is very strong and needs a suspect at least, the Steel vs Fairy argument doesn't make much sense to me: of course Melmetal is gonna destroy Fairy. Just like Heatran destroys Grass. Or Rillaboom destroys Ground. Or Tapu Lele destroys Dragon. Just because one mon is a massive threat to one type doesn't mean that it's a massive threat to other types.

That being said, I do think that given the insane amount of good mons and support Steel has at its disposal, both Melmetal and Aegislash are worth taking a closer look at.

 

[Black Rabbit]

While I do think Melmetal is very strong and needs a suspect at least, the Steel vs Fairy argument doesn't make much sense to me: of course Melmetal is gonna destroy Fairy. Just like Heatran destroys Grass. Or Rillaboom destroys Ground. Or Tapu Lele destroys Dragon. Just because one mon is a massive threat to one type doesn't mean that it's a massive threat to other types.

That being said, I do think that given the insane amount of good mons and support Steel has at its disposal, both Melmetal and Aegislash are worth taking a closer look at.

Perhaps you should reread what I said closely. I never said it was or wasn't a threat to other types other than what steel is SE against (i.e ice, rock, fairy). The post was meant to point out how flawed the argument fairy can beat melmetal with either clefable and/or bulu is and potentially for rock and ice as well, as I can't really speak on behalf of those. Also, please do not try to imply something I, or others, did not say, as I simply want to point out the fallacy of that point of the argument.

 

[TrulyDevious]

if zamazenta drops to OU, will we have it drop here too?

 

[mushamu]

if zamazenta drops to OU, will we have it drop here too

We're separate from OU, so Zamazenta dropping to OU won't have any effect on Monotype.