Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]

[Kaguya Lys]

I'll try to recalibrate the conversation about how unhealthy Zapdos is for the metagame (specifically on Electric). Let's not get heated and personal as this not a [redacted] measuring contest but rather a discussion where facts have greater relevance than individual experiences and opinions.

Point 1: In tournaments like Seasonals and MWCOP electric has one of the highest usages which is partially thanks to Specs Zapdos, we haven't seen any usage stats for MPL because week 1 just now started. The ladder experience varies from player to player, I've seen plenty of electric spam high ladder and I've been in and out of the top 10 since December without putting that much effort in. I don't talk about it that much because the ladder experience is very different than what you might see at the highest level play during the beforementioned tournaments.

Point 1: Tourplay is way more reflective of a types strenght then ladder is. You could play any type on Ladder and if you actually try it you will be able to hit high ladder if you are a good enough player for it. Electric being the most played Type in Seasonals should say alot about the pure strenght Electric has.

Could not agree more with this, as previously discussed in the Kings Rock etc conversations, the council is here to contribute to the betterment of the competitive element of the metagame. I would argue that the data from the tournaments you mentioned have much more importance than ladder data as ladder is mostly for a casual player base. It had the highest usage in MWCoP (25 appearances) and the 2nd highest winrate amongst the top8 brought types. At this volume of usage and level of play, I think it's a fair statement to say that it is extremely dominant coming out of this tour. (Bear in mind this was still in an Urshifu/Dracovish era which may lead to these statistics not accurately reflecting the current state)

Point 2: This isn't about only "some" types not having switchins, this is about there being only two or three switch ins for specs Zapdos across the entire metagame. We aren't here to cater to specific types bad matchups entirely, especially when your type is specializing in gaining momentum and offensively checking your opponent, not having longevity and being able to outlast your opponent. (Side note, Magnet Rise + Air balloon magnezone traps and removes both variants of Excadrill, its just a little nitpick I have).

Point 2: Zapdos has no TRUE Switch ins. You basically A have to guess the move it presses right every time. B it Voltswitches out and your switch in is pressured out. Zapdos +Zeraora are just sooo incredibly strong together. Also "oh Electric has nothing to deal with excadrill" even tho they have Zone is just a false argument. Also, since Exca is not that fast any scarf OR alola raichu just force it out too (in Terrain obviously).

I believe this to be the main problem of Specs Zapdos. It's coverage makes it so there are extremely few safe switchins to it across the whole metagame. I know that obviously you can make reads and catch it, however, every 1st turn against Zapdos being a 50/50 or 33/33/33 isn't healthy imo. Especially in a metagame such as Monotype where a crit/para/burn/confuse your Heatran/Zeraora/Cradily (aka you lose the 50/50 and get haxed) can pretty much settle the matchup. I do understand that it can be handled under circumstances, but I preferred to present this one as I believe it to be a poignant case.

Not gonna piggyback too much on Aeran and schwipper who raised some good points, but Zapdos' good natural bulk, defog/spin options on Tapu Koko, Rotom and Regieleki give it opportunities to spam Hurricane throughout a game and you gotta realise that you normally hit more than you miss.

I won't comment on Tesla's comments as they have been addressed by other users. I would urge users to bring more argumentative claims and tangible evidence to this conversation than what has been shown so far.

 

[pokecole]

I find it so weird to see people here like "I don't have a specific mon that can beat Zapdos + Zeraora" like, yeah you probably should not have a single wall that breaks two wallbreakers. That's what the point of offensive pressure is and why it is good and an advantage state. Monotype has never once been a tier where every type has the ability to wall the offensive threats of every other type in the meta. It's about not letting your opponent put themselves in situations where they can easily take advantage of these things. A mon with a solid but not amazing speed tier and weakness to rocks on a type with lots of other abusable weaknesses hardly seems like a metagame defining threat with no counterplay.

Balancing this tier around the idea that every advantage situation should be able to be hard countered by a single mon on every type is how you end up with a stale tier overcentralized by types that historically have tons of diverse walls and options like Steel or Flying or Water. You're taking away the unique strengths and playstyles of other types to make it more homogeneous.

 

[schwipper]

If we want to see how unhealthy Specs Zapdos is, we should start by breaking it down against every type and check what switch ins are available, i will try to focus on the currently used types for now (just the top 5 types, not including Electric), cause yes, other types might have good switch ins but there is a reason the types get used less. And it would take way to long of a time. I just want to say that types like Normal do indeed have multiple ways to deal with Zapdos, the main problem is that they just suffer from other aspects then.

Steel

Steel could Technically survive It's Tbolt Heatwave Voltswitch combo if you happen to read it right every single time. Even in terms of offensive Counterplay, steel has no real good options. the best bet is hoping rocks never get taken down and you predict it right multiple times. But even then you will be chipped and find yourself at a Uphill battle. Also, if you ever get in the Situation where Heatran is down, good luck. And this is not even that unlikely. Also, even if you outspeed it cause of scarf, its natural bulk makes it very very tough to kill.

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 426-502 (118 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 192-228 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 127-151 (32.9 - 39.1%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 165-195 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 147-174 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage

Water

Yeah water hates Zapdos alot, but to be fair, Water should struggle with strong Electric types i think, so i will not go into more detail here, but i will again add calcs that show how hard for water it is to survive Zapdos. In Rain offensively speaking, water might even be the best one to kill it with cause it has multiple mons just ohkoing it in rain. The calcs will not Include Lanturn mainly because: yes it is a very strong check to it, but having a mon so strong that you add a usually weak mon like Lanturn to the team just to check it shows how unhealthy it realy is

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 214-253 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 237-280 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Rain is needed)
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos in Rain: 357-420 (111.2 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos in Rain: 318-375 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 259-306 (80.6 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Rain again needed)


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingdra: 271-321 (93.1 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO but it also survives

Flying

Flying can use Zapdos itself so it would also take a blow from the ban. On flying you again have multiple mons that can technically survive it if you predict it right. If you misread you end up losing a mon tho, which in the Flying vs Electric Matchup realy hurts. You have options against it with good prediction tho, which ends up giving off the "vs steel" vibe. Good prediction and you win. Bad Prediction once and you usually lose

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 107-126 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 42.4% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 214-253 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (this is when dnite is at 65% hp)

+1 140 Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 211-250 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 315-372 (82.4 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 226-268 (70.4 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(yeah defensive Lando will not kill it)


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 315-372 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 272-320 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but scarf doesn't kill either


252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 226-266 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 156-185 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 129-153 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 298-352 (74.8 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(don't mind defensive steela casually taking a heatwave)

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 75-88 (23.3 - 27.4%) -- 67.9% chance to 4HKO
no damage in return


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 232 HP / 24+ SpD Moltres-Galar: 318-374 (83.9 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(this one suprised me)
+1 112 SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 177-208 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but the return is not great. (this set i used for Moltres is very specific i am aware, but it's more of a showcase on even if something tanks it, it will not even ohko it back)

Dragon

Dragon being on the 4th spot on Usage has a very good reason. It can actually deal with Electric decently well because of the high amount of offensive threats. Also can deal with flying and steel rather well. Granted, you still need to play decently well to win, but it has a way higher chance to deal with Zapdos well over Steel. The calcs i will include show it vs the slower dragons, but also show how it can survive a hit if needed

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 285-336 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 225-265 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 231-273 (71.9 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 241-285 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 163-193 (49.3 - 58.4%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
20 SpA Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 148-176 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO


252+ Atk Dragon Fang Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 236-278 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 331-391 (104.4 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 325-385 (101.2 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 300-354 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(note that offensive chomp with lifeorb is not played by everyone, but i thought its the most fair to include cause its faster and Ohkos)

0 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 206-244 (64.1 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 300-354 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(this one is slower and usually doesn't even run edge)


252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 286-337 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 240-284 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- not a KO
(not sure why it says not a KO but its a 2hko obviously)

All in all it can be said from the other 4 most used types it can either Destroy them on its own with right play, or make the team building and counterplay to it very limited. Even with good play you can get unlucky with Paras from Tbolt or Hurricane Confusions. I just included Calcs i knew from the top of my head came up in my games, be sure to add if you have to add to it cause i am only human and can fail to think about spefic mons for types. That being said yes it does have counterplay to some degree. The Counterplay just happens to be very limited. This doesn't even take into account that Voltswitch does give you Momentum switches which is important to note. Getting destroyed cause your Zapdos switch in gets chipped down slowly does not feel good at all.

 

[AM Tesla]

I truly think we are underestimating the consequences of hurricanes inaccuracy. Specs zapdos is not able to tank hits and combined with rocks does not have the capacity to "spam hurricanes" versus a good player, unless you're extremely lucky.

 

[mushamu]

I truly think we are underestimating the consequences of hurricanes inaccuracy. Specs zapdos is not able to tank hits and combined with rocks does not have the capacity to "spam hurricanes" versus a good player, unless you're extremely lucky.

I really don't think Hurricane's inaccuracy is a reason to keep Zapdos in the metagame. Like I said, 70% chance to hit is still pretty good, and if it's turning games into whether or not Hurricane hits then that's not healthy either. If a Pokemon's answer is literally just "hope they miss", then that's problematic in itself.

 

[AM Tesla]

I really don't think Hurricane's inaccuracy is a reason to keep Zapdos in the metagame. Like I said, 70% chance to hit is still pretty good, and if it's turning games into whether or not Hurricane hits then that's not healthy either. If a Pokemon's answer is literally just "hope they miss", then that's problematic in itself.

If I did every calc using zap cannon it would seem OP too. However, Zap cannon much like hurricane is unreliable and therefore needs to be taken into account.

 

[schwipper]

If I did every calc using zap cannon it would seem incredibly OP too. However, Zap cannon much like hurricane is incredibly unreliable and therefore needs to be taken into account.

50% and 70% are incredibly far appart from each other tho. 50% is half the time while 70% is just straight up a majority of the time. And even if it is not as reliable as Thunderbolt, it still is a move that hits more often then not and if it does, as i have shown with calcs, can blast alot of mons that are slower then it.

 

[mushamu]

If I did every calc using zap cannon it would seem incredibly OP too. However, Zap cannon much like hurricane is incredibly unreliable and therefore needs to be taken into account.

I don't see why Zap Cannon is relevant to this. Zap Cannon being more inaccurate than Hurricane is and having more counterplay across the metagame makes me confused as to why you brought it up. There's a reason why evasion is considered uncompetitive (which lead to Brightpowder and Lax Incense being banned too), you should not be using dodging as your main answer for anything and should try and play around it in a competitive sense. You don't want games to come down to whether or not Hurricane hits, you want it to come down to who played better, not to mention Hurricane's accuracy isn't even bad either.

 

[AM Tesla]

I understand 50% is not the same as 70%. all I was trying to make people see was that 70% is not the same as 100%. And no this is not the main argument on why zapdos shouldn't be banned. This is just another point I was emphasizing. Also hurricane is even less accurate in sun for example so this also needs to be taken into account if we are going to consider its improved accuracy in rain

 

[Fraolain]

Why big boy zapdos ?? Doesn't that just buff flying even more if electric lose such an important mon for the type ? Is the council just a big sect full of fly mains ? First it's cloyster/king's rock, zapdos, your dog, and next they'll try to unban rayquaza or something.

I'm heavily against the ban, I think AM Tesla already said it but elec will become trash again if zapdos get ban, and I don't see why you would nerf one of the most viable counter type to flying right now.

Also ground does have a switch in to zapdos, spdef stunfisk is a real monster and I think it's far more concerning than zapdos.

 

[Dece1t]

Why big boy zapdos ?? Doesn't that just buff flying even more if electric lose such an important mon for the type ? Is the council just a big sect full of fly mains ? First it's cloyster/king's rock, zapdos, your dog, and next they'll try to unban rayquaza or something.

I'm heavily against the ban, I think AM Tesla already said it but elec will become trash again if zapdos get ban, and I don't see why you would nerf one of the most viable counter type to flying right now.

Also ground does have a switch in to zapdos, spdef stunfisk is a real monster and I think it's far more concerning than zapdos.

Pancake lives on! Long live T-wave, Attract, and Swagger combo lol

 

[mushamu]

Why big boy zapdos ?? Doesn't that just buff flying even more if electric lose such an important mon for the type ? Is the council just a big sect full of fly mains ? First it's cloyster/king's rock, zapdos, your dog, and next they'll try to unban rayquaza or something.

I'm heavily against the ban, I think AM Tesla already said it but elec will become trash again if zapdos get ban, and I don't see why you would nerf one of the most viable counter type to flying right now.

There are multiple things in your argument that I would like to address.

I posted Zapdos as a discussion point because I believe Electric is too strong and that banning Zapdos would solve this issue as Zapdos is what pushes Electric over the edge to me. Electric was disgusting in MonoWC, SS Monotype was centered around it and Flying with the team selection heavily being altered due to the Electric usage. Seeing shit like CM + Weakness Policy Latias, Lanturn Water, and Grass as a type become a thing mainly to beat Electric is not what I would call healthy metagame development. Flying is also a really strong type, but the question is whether or not it's too strong. I only speak for myself when I say this, but i also think Galarian Moltres and Melmetal are also viable options for suspects. Galarian Moltres is just very tough to deal with in the builder for a majority of types and is on one of the best types in the tier, while Melmetal can fuck over a lot of Steel's counterplay and offense just by being a ridiculously good failsafe. However, Zapdos would still be the prime option for a suspect test to me just because of how restricting Electric was in MonoWC. I can say for sure I'd ban dogs though, cats are 10x better and outclass dogs in every way shape and form.

As many other people in the thread said, Electric becoming bad after Zapdos gets banned is not a viable reason to keep it in the metagame if you really think it's unhealthy and over-centralizing. I can guarantee you that Fighting and Ghost would become the two best types if we randomly decided to free Marshadow, but it's obviously way too broken. As said in the Monotype tiering philosophy, we don't tier by "saving types", we tier by looking at types that are potentially too strong for the metagame. Having an overcentralizing force warps the entire metagame and causes matchup issues when a lot of the time you're forced to run counterteams to a ridiculous presence or run the ridiculous presence itself. There is a stall in SM UU thread that is going on right now and is a perfect example of this, where stall is "too good", which warps the tier around it as a result. If you think Flying is too good, then that's fine (fuck Floss). We put out a survey earlier in the year explicitly to get community feedback but people posting in the thread is a lot better. The bottom line is the council is not intentionally trying to make Flying over the top strong, I'm just stating my thoughts about what I think needs to be addressed first in this metagame which would be Electric being ridiculous to prepare for and play against, while Flying is easier to prepare for to me. Other council members may feel differently and I only speak for myself.

I have tried specially defensive Galarian Stunfisk because it answers Zapdos and a few other things, but at the end of the day it's extremely niche and I would not be using it as a strong reason for Zapdos counterplay. If you think Flying is way too strong, then feel free to state why in this thread. Other people may disagree, but that's completely ok. We wouldn't be a community if everyone felt the same way about everything.

 

[Fraolain]

Ok here's what I think about fly

Flying's main strength is it's ability to threaten and beat a lot/if not every type in the metagame, and I'll talk about what I think are the 2 main problematic mons of the type right now

Moltres-Galar

A mon I see very little complains about while we can agree it's an absolute monster.
With it's nice 90/90/125 bulk, access to set up move like Nasty plot and agility with a very niche ability in berserk, it gives fly all the tools it need to beat ghost and psychic, and also has the ability to easily clean some types like steel, electric and more. This alone makes Moltres an insane mon and essential in a lot of flying team. The versatility of the flying type makes it so it can easily run only 1 offensive move and still do an amazing job (flashback of SM OU zygarde). I still see people defending it by saying that tapu lele and hatterene can both fairly handle it or that mimikyu can revenge kill it, but really I don't think it's the case, and that a competent player should win the matchup with it. With it's nice bulk he'll find tons of opportunities to set up an agility/nasty plot, a substitute or even activate a possible weakness policy, and I'm not even taking the respectable 30% flinch chance of fiery wrath into consideration of why it's very good, but it can really steal some games.

I don't want to make calc for it, because the ev spread I usually use is not 100% accurate and I think there could be ton of different spread for a lot of different situation.

Celesteela
You're against a flying team, now guess: is the celesteela...
a) Phisically defensive
b) Specially defensive
c) autotomize meteor beam (here another cool minigame is to guess it's 2 other attacks)
d) all answer are wrong, it's power herb fly acrobatics.

And while you could maybe guess it's set from the team (like for exemple if you see a mantine then a fair guess would probably be phisically defensive), it does not change the fact that this mon, with it's amazing typing, ok 97/103/101 bulk and cool offensive stats for a mon known for it's defensive power, can be quite unpredictable at times and is also a big mon present in a lot of flying. It is true that it's defensive sets can be limited as he does not have reliable recovery other than seeds, but there is clearly a reason to why corviknight is less used. Heavy slam coupled with flamethrower allow celesteela to not be overly passive, very few mons can stupidly set a sub in front of it or setting up without the risk of getting slammed or seeded. And his offensive meteor beam set is also very cool even thought it's less played. He can easily set up with it's good bulk and threaten top types like water and fly, also imagine having such a big win condition in the matchup against ice, the type reputed to be the best counter to fly. So in the end it's either a big help for it's teammate, chipping off important mons with it's 999.9 kilograms, and switching in some mons that could be big threats to fly if it wasn't there, like specs lele to only mention one, or it's a nice sweeper that can easily clean some teams that were eaten off by the rest of the team.

Also too lazy to make calcs so do it yourself

-

Overall I think these two mons (a bit more moltres than celesteela) might be what make flying as strong as it is right now, they can both abuse the insane support a flying team can give, or provide this support themself. I did not include mons like landorus or dragonite because I don't think they are what make flying more hard/annoying to face and they does not heavily threaten types like the 2 above do.

PS: Don't think I am a raging psychic player just because I mentionned two mons that destroy the type (I actually hate gen 8 psychic)

 

[schwipper]

Ok here's what I think about fly

Flying's main strength is it's ability to threaten and beat a lot/if not every type in the metagame, and I'll talk about what I think are the 2 main problematic mons of the type right now

Moltres-Galar

A mon I see very little complains about while we can agree it's an absolute monster.
With it's nice 90/90/125 bulk, access to set up move like Nasty plot and agility with a very niche ability in berserk, it gives fly all the tools it need to beat ghost and psychic, and also has the ability to easily clean some types like steel, electric and more. This alone makes Moltres an insane mon and essential in a lot of flying team. The versatility of the flying type makes it so it can easily run only 1 offensive move and still do an amazing job (flashback of SM OU zygarde). I still see people defending it by saying that tapu lele and hatterene can both fairly handle it or that mimikyu can revenge kill it, but really I don't think it's the case, and that a competent player should win the matchup with it. With it's nice bulk he'll find tons of opportunities to set up an agility/nasty plot, a substitute or even activate a possible weakness policy, and I'm not even taking the respectable 30% flinch chance of fiery wrath into consideration of why it's very good, but it can really steal some games.

I don't want to make calc for it, because the ev spread I usually use is not 100% accurate and I think there could be ton of different spread for a lot of different situation.

Celesteela
You're against a flying team, now guess: is the celesteela...
a) Phisically defensive
b) Specially defensive
c) autotomize meteor beam (here another cool minigame is to guess it's 2 other attacks)
d) all answer are wrong, it's power herb fly acrobatics.

And while you could maybe guess it's set from the team (like for exemple if you see a mantine then a fair guess would probably be phisically defensive), it does not change the fact that this mon, with it's amazing typing, ok 97/103/101 bulk and cool offensive stats for a mon known for it's defensive power, can be quite unpredictable at times and is also a big mon present in a lot of flying. It is true that it's defensive sets can be limited as he does not have reliable recovery other than seeds, but there is clearly a reason to why corviknight is less used. Heavy slam coupled with flamethrower allow celesteela to not be overly passive, very few mons can stupidly set a sub in front of it or setting up without the risk of getting slammed or seeded. And his offensive meteor beam set is also very cool even thought it's less played. He can easily set up with it's good bulk and threaten top types like water and fly, also imagine having such a big win condition in the matchup against ice, the type reputed to be the best counter to fly. So in the end it's either a big help for it's teammate, chipping off important mons with it's 999.9 kilograms, and switching in some mons that could be big threats to fly if it wasn't there, like specs lele to only mention one, or it's a nice sweeper that can easily clean some teams that were eaten off by the rest of the team.

Also too lazy to make calcs so do it yourself

-

Overall I think these two mons (a bit more moltres than celesteela) might be what make flying as strong as it is right now, they can both abuse the insane support a flying team can give, or provide this support themself. I did not include mons like landorus or dragonite because I don't think they are what make flying more hard/annoying to face and they does not heavily threaten types like the 2 above do.

PS: Don't think I am a raging psychic player just because I mentionned two mons that destroy the type (I actually hate gen 8 psychic)

I will respond to this step by step. First and the most important thing is: I fully agree that flying is too strong right now and needs to be talked about and probably hit in any way shape or form. I just don't think we adress the right parts of it. Let me explain:

Moltres-Galar is a pain to deal with for slower defensive Types. It's high special bulk also let it tank some suprising hits (very much including zap specs if you run enough hp and spdef), so it is very hard to kill. Also with the HdB on it even if you get rocks up and keep them up, which already is impressive against flying at the moment, you still achieve nothing on a very strong breaker. Defensive, offensive, Agility or sub, only Fiery or Hurricane / Airslash, it has alot of options that make it annoying to deal with. Then comes the question: would banning Moltres-Galar fix this issue? Probably. There are no good flying mons that achieve the same style of destruction against slower mons (outside of stuff like Zap with specs maybe). A suspect on it is reasonable.


Flying is also this consistent cause the defensive Core is very very strong. Mantine is a blessing for flying right now and Celesteela can take a bunch of hits and is very hard to realy punish. Flamethrower also makes it good against otherwise strong answers to leechseed walls (Looking at you ferrothorn). The sweeper set is also very fun to play and if it catches you by suprise you will suffer for it. Now then the same question: will banning Steela fix that problem? This i have to disagree with. Flying has other great sweepers and there is a reason the defensive set is more used. The defensive Set might not even be the best flying/Steel type to be played defensively. Corviknight has Roost and U-Turn, allowing it to be more consistent in walling out enemy pokemon while also having the option to U-Turn into one of Flyings many strong wallbreaker or sweeper. It also can pull off a Bulkup taunt/sub set or some very weird agility set, which give it the same feeling as steela with less pure stats but other very reliable moves for that.

so while i support a Zapdos and a Moltres-Galar suspect, i don't see steela being worthy of a suspect test. It has many options, but it isn't even the best of its kind in all of the options.

 

[Aeran]

I don't want to piggyback off of schwipper too much since he made some good points, but I mostly agree with his take on Moltres-Galar and Celesteela, although I think that there are larger issues at hand like Zapdos and Melmetal instead of going after a mon that has only recently gained popularity in Moltres-G where counterplay is still being developed, and Celesteela for which more flying teams these days are dropping for corviknight because of its role compression of being both a flying/steel, momentum gainer with U-Turn, and being a defogger with reliable recovery.

The offensive checks for Zapdos exist, however there are a few categories that I want to be putting them into because they are clearly not all equal in how well they handle this threat.

The first category belongs to checks that have to physically outspeed and revenge kill Zapdos because there is no way that they are going to be switching in and grabbing the KO. Pokemon like Garchomp, Barraskewda (only in rain is liquidation an OHKO), Weavile, Victini (Scarf final gambit kills, V-Create does not), Dragapult and Darmanitan-Galar come to mind. I want to point out that almost all of these pokemon just let in a Zapdos teammate like rotom-wash and/or magnezone, they can volt switch out while the Zapdos check goes back to the opponent, and here we are back at square one with Zapdos or another threat on the field again threatening another KO. This is also ignoring bulky set up sweepers like Dragonite, which can be crippled by Static if it activates, which is true for many of the beforementioned pokemon that are required to win vs Zapdos.

By itself I would be ok with this, because that is how offensive pressure works, however in the instance where Zapdos can feasibly go for any of its options with there being so few viable ways to disrupt Zapdos defensively while being potentially punished for making the "right" move and checking Zapdos offensively with Static which is being overlooked in this conversation. I want to remind you that Static has the same chance of activation as scald does to burn you, so keep that in mind. Before comparisons to Volcarona are being brought up, Volcarona is on two lower tiered types, does not have nearly the same amount of support that is given to Zapdos, and requires a turn to set up before it becomes a major issue, as well as there being way more defensive counterplay to Volcarona's coverage.

Secondly there are special checks which don't have to deal with the possibility of activating static, I mostly think of Kyurem, the Lati twins, Hydreigon, Kingdra in rain, Thundurus-T because of its electric immunity, Spectrier, Tapu lele and more that I'm probably forgetting. These mons don't have to worry about activating static, however most of them aside from Kingda, Kyurem, and Lele (with specs at least, then again hurricane is a 50/50 to OHKO lele) do not OHKO, and without a scarf things like Lele, Hydreigon and Kyurem just get outsped and heavily damaged, or volt switched on and they go straight into the right supporting mon on electric.

Does this mean that offensive counterplay to Zapdos doesn't exist? Clearly Zapdos has offensive checks to it, as did Dracovish and Urshifu which were both flawed pokemon the same applies to Zapdos, however Zapdos gains much more momentum vs the opponent than either of those two mons could dream of with far better coverage options that hits every type in the game neutrally, with some of the best support that could be asked for on both electric and flying. Zapdos by itself doesn't win the game, rather its the support that it is given that gives Zapdos the necessary backbone to take on the overwhelming majority of the metagame that makes both taking on Zapdos defensively and offensively too much for monotype in my opinion.

If you're punished for both trying to check it offensively, and you're punished for trying to take it on defensively what other options are you left with? Do we just accept that because some people like Zapdos as a pokemon, when there are other options for electric as well? Or do we suspect the threat that has been terrorizing the metagame for months at this point? To me the answer seems pretty clear that its worth a suspect test.

 

[Pedeath]

Point 1: how common a type is a tournaments, ladder, etc does not mean it needs to get nerfed. I very very rarely see electric in high ladder. Its a low-mid ladder type.
Point 2: just because some types don't have ez switch ins for a mon doesn't mean anything. What does electric have to switch in against pult, excadrill, kyurem, hydregion, diggersby, I can go on forever.
Point 3: hurricane has horrible accuracy it is in itself a nerf.
Point 4: I am by far the highest ranked electric player...I don't even use specs zapdos. Again its not that good. If it was I would use it.
Point 5: Specs zapdos is easily worn down by rocks
point 6: If zapdos was truly OP why is it so rare on flying?
Point 7: banning zapdos would make electric a trash type. it wouldn't just nerf it it would make it unviable. You wanna talk about depressing? Imagine fighting scarfed moldbreaker excadrills without zapdos.
Point 8: Electric is a strong type because it has good synergy. Not because a particular mon is OP. This was a major argument for why aegislash wasn't banned. Because aegi wasn't itself OP and it shouldn't be nerfed just to nerf a type. why is it different here.
Electric truly needs zapdos. It always has in every generation. Try playing electric without it and you won't get far.

Tesla is waaaay too suspect to talk about this, since he's a monoelectric user wich basically spams monoeletric in the tier (and a great player too)

And I did faced him sometimes and i guarantee choice specs zapdos is a huge problem. The biggest answer in poison teams(i'll be talking about poison MU becaus is the one I'm more used) is G-slowking wich can get 3HKO by hurricane, but doesn't kill zapdos is less then 3 turns, unless it gets a poison immediately. If not, then i'll have to keep switchng between Pex and G-slowking to abuse regenerator and probably sack pex.

I though about using nihilego to counter it, might be usefull, but probably i might have to sack another mon to bring in nihilego safely

 

[Fraolain]

Tesla is waaaay too suspect to talk about this, since he's a monoelectric user wich basically spams monoeletric in the tier (and a great player too)

And I did faced him sometimes and i guarantee choice specs zapdos is a huge problem. The biggest answer in poison teams(i'll be talking about poison MU becaus is the one I'm more used) is G-slowking wich can get 3HKO by hurricane, but doesn't kill zapdos is less then 3 turns, unless it gets a poison immediately. If not, then i'll have to keep switchng between Pex and G-slowking to abuse regenerator and probably sack pex.

I though about using nihilego to counter it, might be usefull, but probably i might have to sack another mon to bring in nihilego safely

I play nihilego in a lot of my poison, I have to drop nidoking for it but I think it's worth it. A fast set with rocks+3 attacks can do a lot of damage against electric/flying. Zapdos or electric in general is not a problem at all for poison.

 

[Pedeath]

I play nihilego in a lot of my poison, I have to drop nidoking for it but I think it's worth it. A fast set with rocks+3 attacks can do a lot of damage against electric/flying. Zapdos or electric in general is not a problem at all for poison.

I tottaly agree with you, except for the part that zapdos is not a problem at all. If it is choice specs it could be a problem

But dropping nidoking also have its desavantages, like making the MU agains stell more difficult. But i'll definetly try nihilego because i'm tired of g-moltres.

 

[mushamu]

I play nihilego in a lot of my poison, I have to drop nidoking for it but I think it's worth it. A fast set with rocks+3 attacks can do a lot of damage against electric/flying. Zapdos or electric in general is not a problem at all for poison.

Dropping Nidoking makes the matchup impossible for Poison since you just get Volt Switch spammed on without any drawback. Knock Off Raichu is a problem for Poison, where you can remove Galarian Slowking's Assault Vest and then Zapdos goes in since Hurricane now 2HKOs everything.

 

[Fraolain]

Dropping Nidoking makes the matchup impossible for Poison since you just get Volt Switch spammed on without any drawback. Knock Off Raichu is a problem for Poison, where you can remove Galarian Slowking's Assault Vest and then Zapdos goes in since Hurricane now 2HKOs everything.

Not really, zapdos can't volt switch indefinitely thanks to regenerator+rocks, nihilego set them up pretty easely against electric, and you just have to apply some pressure on the rotom or whatever remove the rocks (if you take rotom-wash as an exemple, literally any mon in poison can do that). Of course if you just hard switch into glowking when you see raichu you take a big risk in getting knock offed, but you also take some risk when clicking knock off with raichu in the first place, he's so frail the slight amout of damage he could possibly recieve coupled with a LO could make him dead in a few turns+you can even sack an useless mon like pex to scout for knock off. I don't see why you would be taking so much risk with your raichu just to try to win with unreliables hurricanes, when clearly raichu is much more deadly in this matchup. I'm not saying poison can just auto-win against electric, but imo the matchup is more oriented to the poison player. I played this matchup multiple time against fairly decent player and specs zapdos wasn't the most threatening mon in any of these games.
(Also maybe a bit unrelated but just saying that drapion acupressure 6-0 electric if you're lucky, truly a fair and balanced mon. Unlike those DISGUSTING items that got recently banned)

 

[Winemom87]

We must say adiós to dos just like we did in gen 6 when flying was overcentralizing due to the role it served then. History repeats itself!

 

[mushamu]

Just wanted to say that earliest we’re going to consider hosting a suspect is after MPL ends. Up until then, feel free to discuss you feel is suspect worthy.

I personally would not suspect anything as of now even though I supported suspecting Zapdos earlier. From the MPL SS games, Electric is not in a great spot because people have learned how to more or less deal with it and it has thus dropped in usage. The metagame is in a good place and I enjoy it a lot because I think it awards both good building and playing well.

 

[wkxkevin]

Can we admire these calc:

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 172-204 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 190-224 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

 

[Zapperrix]

Quick question, if Bright Powder and Lax Incense are banned, why are Sand Veil and Snow Cloak legal?

 

[yedla]

The main difference between ability and item is sand veil or snow cloak are available with 8 fully evolve pokemon or less when you can put item on every pokemon you want. If you look at Sand Veil for example the only viable pokemon in ground is garchomp that's only 1 pokemon when luck item can be everywhere.