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Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]
- Thread starter mushamu
- Start date
Ladies and gentlemen we did it we now have banned all the bullshitTo add onto Floss's post we're also going to be looking at Focus Band after a few people brought it up here. Focus Band has a 10% chance of allowing the holder to withstand any attack at any HP% multiple times. Much like King's Rock, Brightpowder, Lax Incense, and Quick Claw it is a luck based item as well that can have tremendous benefits if it triggers, so we're going to be dealing with it in the same fashion.
I’m officially on board since it’s now all or nothing
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Y’all cannot be losing to Focus BandTo add onto Floss's post we're also going to be looking at Focus Band after a few people brought it up here. Focus Band has a 10% chance of allowing the holder to withstand any attack at any HP% multiple times. Much like King's Rock, Brightpowder, Lax Incense, and Quick Claw it is a luck based item as well that can have tremendous benefits if it triggers, so we're going to be dealing with it in the same fashion.
Nah but it feels right to ban all bullshit not some
Especially since Focus band has the same BS (living a fatal or multiple fatal hits) as the other hax items
I still wake up in a cold sweat when an Battle frontier trainer in Gen3 beat me with this item recently by having its Starmie live three fatal hits
Based on the idea of counterplay, the 10% dodge items shouldn't be banned because of wide lens' existence.
King's rock should stay because we are not aiming to get rid of haxy flinch tactics. King's rock when abused with cloyster has a lower chance than togekiss and jirachi using their respective flinch moves. So as far as flinching goes, at least talk about the more powerful abusers of the mechanic first.
In regards to focus band and randomly missing and being flinched...
You would be a very paranoid player if you're constantly guessing the opponent's team has a bright powder / kings rock / focus band mon, since it almost never appears. However, it is important to guess which mons are scarf / specs / z / assault vest without it being revealed, so you could've guessed it was brightpowder/kings rock/focus band. Today those are bad guesses, but brightpowder not being known should be in the same class as scarf and specs and assault vest, which can all change the game.
Tbh, I think this is all part of a bigger picture. The council must have to sacrifice a ban to the monotype gods, and since the aegislash suspect went south we had to find something to offer and quick(ban)!
King's rock should stay because we are not aiming to get rid of haxy flinch tactics. King's rock when abused with cloyster has a lower chance than togekiss and jirachi using their respective flinch moves. So as far as flinching goes, at least talk about the more powerful abusers of the mechanic first.
In regards to focus band and randomly missing and being flinched...
You would be a very paranoid player if you're constantly guessing the opponent's team has a bright powder / kings rock / focus band mon, since it almost never appears. However, it is important to guess which mons are scarf / specs / z / assault vest without it being revealed, so you could've guessed it was brightpowder/kings rock/focus band. Today those are bad guesses, but brightpowder not being known should be in the same class as scarf and specs and assault vest, which can all change the game.
Tbh, I think this is all part of a bigger picture. The council must have to sacrifice a ban to the monotype gods, and since the aegislash suspect went south we had to find something to offer and quick(ban)!
Into the thick of it! ♫♫To add onto Floss's post we're also going to be looking at Focus Band after a few people brought it up here. Focus Band has a 10% chance of allowing the holder to withstand any attack at any HP% multiple times. Much like King's Rock, Brightpowder, Lax Incense, and Quick Claw it is a luck based item as well that can have tremendous benefits if it triggers, so we're going to be dealing with it in the same fashion.
Into the thick of it! ♫♫
This diesn't make much sense.
You say serene grace is prevalent and has actual uses, and that you SHOULD be prepping for it, but then you can't really say that's not the same for cloyster+king's rock. Even worst, serene grace is probably even better than the item.
And I still don't understand how you can't prep against bright powder, an item that is still bad and will give your opponent an advantage 1/10 times, just like a focus blast/hurricane could help you to victory 7/10 times, except it's way worst odds. If you're the better player, you choose the most likely path to happen, if you missed and lost then you can't say it's any different than any other part of rng in the game. And, I might sound like a robot repeating it again but bright powder is not unpredictable as it is not played for the only reason it require giving up your item slot only for a 10% evasion boost, which often lead into problem you would never have with an usual item. If this item was never brought up in the past I think it's for a reason. Really the only correct pokemon i could ever see with bright powder would be ditto, more to have an invisible item that does not lock him into 1 move than for the evasion boost.
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Also for focus band I think it shouldn't be banned too, just like bright powder it's only a 10% chance of happening and it's even worst since unlike bpowder it can't stack with some sort of ability
Although I know this debate is very controversial and many have argued on each sides I think the main premise as to why
Focus Band, Lax Incense, Bright Powder, Quick Claw, and King's Rock should be banned is the unpredictability. The low usage of these items actually fuel to their unpredictability. Although yes, some might predict shell smash kings rock cloyster from a mile(if it shell smashes and the defense and spdef drop are still there, 99% of the time it's kings rock) if it is far from consistent enough to be worth it over white herb. The makes it even more unpredictable. The same can be said for sand veil bright powder garchomp, bright powder ditto(why?), quick claw quick draw glowbro, etc. These sets are nowhere near popular enough for people to be seing it from a mile. The worst part is that this RNG is often makes or breaks a game.
These situations occur far too often for users of these items and is probably the most uncompetitive thing. Since competitveness aims to minimize not completely remove RNG, I don't think these items should stay.
I'll also address a few counter arguments:
"One can't say that these items are unpredictable because the items a mon hold is one of hundreds. The item slot is a mystery a good battler must account for."
The problem with this is that some items are more popular than others. For example, take Garchomp. A skilled player might predict a few items like rocky helmet, lum berry, life orb, leftovers ... If its choiced, it might catch some people off guard but still within expectations of a garchomp. Then there is bright powder. HOW ON EARTH DO YOU PREDICT A BRIGHT POWDER? Again, the low usage of these items actually fuel to their unpredictability.
"Serene grace is far more unfair than king's rock"
I know what pokemon have serene grace, or what pokemon has sand veil, quick draw, snow cloak, etc. I do not know which pokemon is going to use focus band, kings rock, etc.
"Moves like hurricane and focus blast is a lot more of gamble."
I don't know whether the opponent has hurricane/focus blast, but what I do know is that some pokemon are almost never going to use the move which allows me to narrow things down a lot(aka, unpredictability actualyl goes down). I know for a fact that bisharp, landorus-T, and excadrill 99.99% will not use focus blast: they aren't special attackers. Same can go for blissey. There are far more valuable moves like thunderbolt and ice beam. This cannot be said for Focus Band, Lax Incense, Bright Powder, Quick Claw, and King's Rock. Almost every pokemon can run this item and its effectiveness will stay the same. Although yes, I know that garchomp is most inclined to bright powder than kings rock, but what prevents me from using kings rock. I can always cheese a win with kings rock scale shot garchomp. Yes I do know that cinccino and cloyster might run kings rock, but what prevents them from running focus band instead. Choosing to live a hit rather and than prevent the opponent from moving.
TL:DR: Focus Band, Lax Incense, Bright Powder, Quick Claw, and King's Rock should be BANNED, not based on the fact that it is RNG but on the fact that it's very unpredictable, made even worse by their rare usage. The fact that its effectiveness on pokemon is almost the exact same, regardless of the pokemon itself except a few situations like skill link+kings rock, makes it argually the most uncompetitive thing unever.
The major thing I feel most people opposing the ban fail to understand is that it is not mainly about it being difficult to predict the item being randomly used, but about the fact these items can cause scenarios where playing worse can be rewarded because of the reliance on random occurrences. Even if we knew items at preview, it wouldn't remove the fact that worse players can be essentially bailed by unnecessary, nonsense rng. I'll address some of the main comments I saw in the thread and in the discord.
1 - Moves that naturally have flinch chances, crits, drops, low accuracy, etc... exist too
All those factors are integrals parts of the game, and to address them is to completely change how the game itself works; which banning these items does not do. Unfortunately, Pokemon will always somewhat be a game of chance because it has all these built-in, unavoidable features. However, if we are able to reduce the likelihood of nonsense occurring and better favour good playing, then we should. The banning of all these volatile items allows us to reduce the interference of rng of the game which ultimately leads to rewarding the better players and thus being more competitive.
2 - Serene Grace exists
As mentioned before, abilities like Serene Grace work differently because the Pokemon that profit from it are limited which allows for actual counter play to exist. When building a team, it is very easy and natural to account for the fact you wont be getting completely ran over by a Togekiss or a Jirachi flinching you out. However, these items that can be put on any Pokemon prevent such counter play from happening. There's just too many possibilities to account for. In fact, this ties into a similar philosophy as the used for banning Dynamax. The amount of possibilities made it unreasonable to reliably account for everything. Predicting is a good and important part of Pokemon, but there is such a thing as having way too much to consider.
3 - We don't know what items other Pokemon have at preview, or if a Pokemon can randomly run Ice Beam and freeze me
Using these arguments is a gross oversimplification of the issue. There is always going to be a degree of uncertainty, but the main thing is how you can deal with that. In the case of items, once you've identified what Pokemon has Choice Scarf, etc.. you are able to adjust your gameplay accordingly. On the other hand, there isn't much you can do for a lot of these items. How are you adjusting your plan to the fact that your 100% accuracy moves can miss, or that you can randomly be outsped at any moment. There was also a mention of how other less viable items like Big Root can used. The difference here is that while that item is not predictable, it is not uncompetitive; it doesn't permit worse plays to be rewarded.
4 - Using these items is bad because they barely ever work, so the users are putting themselves at a disadvantage
This is the problem itself, bad players can make the inferior decisions of relying on these probability reliant items and still win because of opportune activations. The fact that these items are not activating too frequently isn't a reason to excuse the fact that better playing can be cancelled out by nonsense.
5 - They hardly get used anyways
A big mistake people make is associating usage to determine if something is uncompetitive. The deciding factor when it comes to unhealthiness is how it impacts the game not how many people use it. If its existence ruins the quality of the game, which it does, then that should be all that is important.
6 - They are fun
As people said before, tiering is about being competitive not just about having fun. Fun is an extremely subjective thing and is not a substantial method of determining what is healthy. I'd have a whole lotta fun if I could run Kyogre on rain teams, doesn't mean we should unban it because that would be horrible for the metagame. Another thing is, like Decem pointed out, in a competitive standpoint fun often comes from having good games where playing well is rewarded and there is actual thinking involved.
7 - They are a part of the game
Yes, these items are parts of the game but they aren't essential and can be easily removed. If we are going by the logic that they are part of the game and shouldn't be banned for being considered uncompetitive, then should we allow Moody, should we free Damp Rock, should we go back to using Dynamax, etc.. Basically, it's clear that being a part of the game isn't really relevant when it comes to banning. If it is something we can afford to ban without changing how the game mechanics were designed, then it can be subjected to a vote.
8 - Besides King's Rock (because of Skill Link), the others percentages are too low and shouldn't be banned
Who decides what probability of luck is just enough of luck? If we are removing King's Rock for being uncompetitive for the reasons listed, why shouldn't the items who cause the same issues? Them being less likely to occur does not change the fact that when they do occur, they are uncompetitive. The simple possibility should be enough to identify these items as problematic.
Overall, Pokemon is a game about probability management and if we can eliminate some of the control probability has over the metagame, it can only be better for the competitive nature of the tier. We lower the chances of playing worse being rewarded by removing these items. Aeran showcased it nicely here.
1 - Moves that naturally have flinch chances, crits, drops, low accuracy, etc... exist too
All those factors are integrals parts of the game, and to address them is to completely change how the game itself works; which banning these items does not do. Unfortunately, Pokemon will always somewhat be a game of chance because it has all these built-in, unavoidable features. However, if we are able to reduce the likelihood of nonsense occurring and better favour good playing, then we should. The banning of all these volatile items allows us to reduce the interference of rng of the game which ultimately leads to rewarding the better players and thus being more competitive.
2 - Serene Grace exists
As mentioned before, abilities like Serene Grace work differently because the Pokemon that profit from it are limited which allows for actual counter play to exist. When building a team, it is very easy and natural to account for the fact you wont be getting completely ran over by a Togekiss or a Jirachi flinching you out. However, these items that can be put on any Pokemon prevent such counter play from happening. There's just too many possibilities to account for. In fact, this ties into a similar philosophy as the used for banning Dynamax. The amount of possibilities made it unreasonable to reliably account for everything. Predicting is a good and important part of Pokemon, but there is such a thing as having way too much to consider.
3 - We don't know what items other Pokemon have at preview, or if a Pokemon can randomly run Ice Beam and freeze me
Using these arguments is a gross oversimplification of the issue. There is always going to be a degree of uncertainty, but the main thing is how you can deal with that. In the case of items, once you've identified what Pokemon has Choice Scarf, etc.. you are able to adjust your gameplay accordingly. On the other hand, there isn't much you can do for a lot of these items. How are you adjusting your plan to the fact that your 100% accuracy moves can miss, or that you can randomly be outsped at any moment. There was also a mention of how other less viable items like Big Root can used. The difference here is that while that item is not predictable, it is not uncompetitive; it doesn't permit worse plays to be rewarded.
4 - Using these items is bad because they barely ever work, so the users are putting themselves at a disadvantage
This is the problem itself, bad players can make the inferior decisions of relying on these probability reliant items and still win because of opportune activations. The fact that these items are not activating too frequently isn't a reason to excuse the fact that better playing can be cancelled out by nonsense.
5 - They hardly get used anyways
A big mistake people make is associating usage to determine if something is uncompetitive. The deciding factor when it comes to unhealthiness is how it impacts the game not how many people use it. If its existence ruins the quality of the game, which it does, then that should be all that is important.
6 - They are fun
As people said before, tiering is about being competitive not just about having fun. Fun is an extremely subjective thing and is not a substantial method of determining what is healthy. I'd have a whole lotta fun if I could run Kyogre on rain teams, doesn't mean we should unban it because that would be horrible for the metagame. Another thing is, like Decem pointed out, in a competitive standpoint fun often comes from having good games where playing well is rewarded and there is actual thinking involved.
7 - They are a part of the game
Yes, these items are parts of the game but they aren't essential and can be easily removed. If we are going by the logic that they are part of the game and shouldn't be banned for being considered uncompetitive, then should we allow Moody, should we free Damp Rock, should we go back to using Dynamax, etc.. Basically, it's clear that being a part of the game isn't really relevant when it comes to banning. If it is something we can afford to ban without changing how the game mechanics were designed, then it can be subjected to a vote.
8 - Besides King's Rock (because of Skill Link), the others percentages are too low and shouldn't be banned
Who decides what probability of luck is just enough of luck? If we are removing King's Rock for being uncompetitive for the reasons listed, why shouldn't the items who cause the same issues? Them being less likely to occur does not change the fact that when they do occur, they are uncompetitive. The simple possibility should be enough to identify these items as problematic.
Overall, Pokemon is a game about probability management and if we can eliminate some of the control probability has over the metagame, it can only be better for the competitive nature of the tier. We lower the chances of playing worse being rewarded by removing these items. Aeran showcased it nicely here.
The largest reason is probably that Decem has less time to address the meta's issues due to college (this is the reason they changed leaders). In addition, the uncompetitiveness of these items are far less significant than the presence of monsters like Urshifu-S and Dracovish, not to mention the potential ban of Band Melm and Specs Zapdos. The council wanted to see how to meta develops with these pokemon which is why they haven't had enough time to deal with things. Right now, the meta has settled nicely and issues like these items were addressed. I will not be surprised if arena trap/shadow tag or sand veil/snow cloak will be next.
Or the fact that our biggest and hallmark tournament MPL is about to start and they want the best competitive gameplay on display.
Bear in mind that even if Decem gets busy, the council and other tier leaders and contributors are still there to help the tier progress.
I would like to bring up Zapdos for discussion. I believe it's been an unhealthy element in this metagame for a while now so I would like to hear more thoughts regarding it and Electric's presence. I'm sure a lot of people who play Monotype tournaments are familiar with Electric especially given it was the most used type in Monotype World Cup. I also think Melmetal is something worth looking at, but Zapdos is a more urgent concern and has a bigger effect on the metagame.
Electric is an insanely strong type in Monotype with great consistency. Volt Switch spam combined with strong breakers is a reliable way to efficiently a ton of stuff. Choice Specs Zapdos is an absurdly strong breaker that I believe pushes Electric over the edge and centralizes the metagame. Hurricane + Heat Wave + Volt Switch shits on 99% of the tier, with some types like Dragon, Ground, and Water not having reliable switchins to Hurricane at all. Pokemon like Galarian Slowking and Tyranitar simply get Volted on and taken advantage of by one of Zapdos's friends, mainly Zeraora. Common threats like Hydreigon, Landorus-T, Nidoking, and Dragapult simply get OHKO'd while nothing else can really switch into it in fear of getting 2HKO'd or getting Volted on. The only Pokemon that can switch into all of Zapdos's attacks and prevent it from generating momentum are Rhyperior and Lanturn, which are rare and are only used in Monotype for the sole purpose of countering Zapdos and would never be used otherwise.
Hurricane is unreliable, sitting at a mere 70% accuracy, but this only means some games literally turn into dice rolls between whether Hurricane hits or not. I find the fact that sometimes Zapdos counterplay is literally just "switch in this Pokemon that gets 2HKO'd and hope Hurricane misses" problematic. For example, loading up Ground against Zapdos can be summarized into fishing for misses with Excadrill since pretty much everything else dies to Hurricane. I'm not saying banning Zapdos would change the way Electric works because in the end, it's still just Volt Switch offense spam. However, I do think Zapdos pushes it over the edge where it usually can just come in, click Hurricane and 1. claim a Pokemon provided it hits Hurricane because sturdy Flying resists are scarce or 2. click Volt Switch if it comes across something that walls it so Zeraora can beat it. Personally I feel like building SS Monotype is a huge headache as of now because you have to literally go out of your way a majority of the time to accurately account for a Pokemon that has 2 switchins in the entire metagame and is supported by excellent offensive synergy. It's also depressing to see games come down to whether or not Hurricane misses/confuses and not really who played better because it's easy to get Zapdos in a good position and start clicking due to its good speed tier.
Choice Specs Zapdos has been a concern in Monotype for a while now and I'd love to hear more on this topic. It and Electric's presence has made SS Monotype unenjoyable to build and play for me and I'd love to see it suspected sometime soon.
Point 1: how common a type is a tournaments, ladder, etc does not mean it needs to get nerfed. I very very rarely see electric in high ladder. Its a low-mid ladder type.
Point 2: just because some types don't have ez switch ins for a mon doesn't mean anything. What does electric have to switch in against pult, excadrill, kyurem, hydregion, diggersby, I can go on forever.
Point 3: hurricane has horrible accuracy it is in itself a nerf.
Point 4: I am by far the highest ranked electric player...I don't even use specs zapdos. Again its not that good. If it was I would use it.
Point 5: Specs zapdos is easily worn down by rocks
point 6: If zapdos was truly OP why is it so rare on flying?
Point 7: banning zapdos would make electric a trash type. it wouldn't just nerf it it would make it unviable. You wanna talk about depressing? Imagine fighting scarfed moldbreaker excadrills without zapdos.
Point 8: Electric is a strong type because it has good synergy. Not because a particular mon is OP. This was a major argument for why aegislash wasn't banned. Because aegi wasn't itself OP and it shouldn't be nerfed just to nerf a type. why is it different here.
Electric truly needs zapdos. It always has in every generation. Try playing electric without it and you won't get far.
Point 2: just because some types don't have ez switch ins for a mon doesn't mean anything. What does electric have to switch in against pult, excadrill, kyurem, hydregion, diggersby, I can go on forever.
Point 3: hurricane has horrible accuracy it is in itself a nerf.
Point 4: I am by far the highest ranked electric player...I don't even use specs zapdos. Again its not that good. If it was I would use it.
Point 5: Specs zapdos is easily worn down by rocks
point 6: If zapdos was truly OP why is it so rare on flying?
Point 7: banning zapdos would make electric a trash type. it wouldn't just nerf it it would make it unviable. You wanna talk about depressing? Imagine fighting scarfed moldbreaker excadrills without zapdos.
Point 8: Electric is a strong type because it has good synergy. Not because a particular mon is OP. This was a major argument for why aegislash wasn't banned. Because aegi wasn't itself OP and it shouldn't be nerfed just to nerf a type. why is it different here.
Electric truly needs zapdos. It always has in every generation. Try playing electric without it and you won't get far.
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One thing that I would like to add to Decem's post is that physically offensive checks to Zapdos are risky as well, which not only limits defensive but offensive counterplay as well. The main reason why I say this is because of the main ability that specs Zapdos runs, which is Static. I'm not saying that this ability makes Zapdos broken or by itself problematic, its just another factor to consider when we talk about a pokemon that already has two unviable switchins with lanturn and rhyperior. Zapdos sits at a respectable base 100 speed stat, when combined with respectable natural bulk with 90/85/90 defenses and a solid defensive typing, even specs can survive one or two hits without rocks up which is not only crucial for smacking the opponent into the next plane of existence, but potentially crippling the opponent's offensive check if it does secure the K.O on Zapdos when static activates, which can be game changing on certain matchups like when static activates on Dragonite vs flying, Barraskewda vs water, or on a U-Turn from something like Lando-T or other common U-Turning mons to try and gain momentum. This alone wouldn't make Zapdos broken, but the lack of widespread counterplay for most types to handle Zapdos's offensive coverage and just wallbreaking power makes it worth a suspect test imho.
I would like to bring up Zapdos for discussion. I believe it's been an unhealthy element in this metagame for a while now so I would like to hear more thoughts regarding it and Electric's presence. I'm sure a lot of people who play Monotype tournaments are familiar with Electric especially given it was the most used type in Monotype World Cup. I also think Melmetal is something worth looking at, but Zapdos is a more urgent concern and has a bigger effect on the metagame.
Electric is an insanely strong type in Monotype with great consistency. Volt Switch spam combined with strong breakers is a reliable way to efficiently a ton of stuff. Choice Specs Zapdos is an absurdly strong breaker that I believe pushes Electric over the edge and centralizes the metagame. Hurricane + Heat Wave + Volt Switch shits on 99% of the tier, with some types like Dragon, Ground, and Water not having reliable switchins to Hurricane at all. Pokemon like Galarian Slowking and Tyranitar simply get Volted on and taken advantage of by one of Zapdos's friends, mainly Zeraora. Common threats like Hydreigon, Landorus-T, Nidoking, and Dragapult simply get OHKO'd while nothing else can really switch into it in fear of getting 2HKO'd or getting Volted on. The only Pokemon that can switch into all of Zapdos's attacks and prevent it from generating momentum are Rhyperior and Lanturn, which are rare and are only used in Monotype for the sole purpose of countering Zapdos and would never be used otherwise.
Hurricane is unreliable, sitting at a mere 70% accuracy, but this only means some games literally turn into dice rolls between whether Hurricane hits or not. I find the fact that sometimes Zapdos counterplay is literally just "switch in this Pokemon that gets 2HKO'd and hope Hurricane misses" problematic. For example, loading up Ground against Zapdos can be summarized into fishing for misses with Excadrill since pretty much everything else dies to Hurricane. I'm not saying banning Zapdos would change the way Electric works because in the end, it's still just Volt Switch offense spam. However, I do think Zapdos pushes it over the edge where it usually can just come in, click Hurricane and 1. claim a Pokemon provided it hits Hurricane because sturdy Flying resists are scarce or 2. click Volt Switch if it comes across something that walls it so Zeraora can beat it. Personally I feel like building SS Monotype is a huge headache as of now because you have to literally go out of your way a majority of the time to accurately account for a Pokemon that has 2 switchins in the entire metagame and is supported by excellent offensive synergy. It's also depressing to see games come down to whether or not Hurricane misses/confuses and not really who played better because it's easy to get Zapdos in a good position and start clicking due to its good speed tier.
Choice Specs Zapdos has been a concern in Monotype for a while now and I'd love to hear more on this topic. It and Electric's presence has made SS Monotype unenjoyable to build and play for me and I'd love to see it suspected sometime soon.
Point 1: In tournaments like Seasonals and MWCOP electric has one of the highest usages which is partially thanks to Specs Zapdos, we haven't seen any usage stats for MPL because week 1 just now started. The ladder experience varies from player to player, I've seen plenty of electric spam high ladder and I've been in and out of the top 10 since December without putting that much effort in. I don't talk about it that much because the ladder experience is very different than what you might see at the highest level play during the beforementioned tournaments.
Point 2: This isn't about only "some" types not having switchins, this is about there being only two or three switch ins for specs Zapdos across the entire metagame. We aren't here to cater to specific types bad matchups entirely, especially when your type is specializing in gaining momentum and offensively checking your opponent, not having longevity and being able to outlast your opponent. (Side note, Magnet Rise + Air balloon magnezone traps and removes both variants of Excadrill, its just a little nitpick I have).
Point 3: Yeah, hurricane sucks until it hits you. Zapdos has plenty of opportunities to spam hurricane throughout the battle.
Point 4: Refer to point 1. If you don't use specs Zapdos personally good for you I guess, but its not an accurate reflection across the type as a whole when you aren't the only electric user in the game. That would make about as much sense as me saying that choice band Zapdos-Galar isn't the best set rather it being bulk up if I were the number one ranked player using flying, or using whatever type I feel like.
Point 5: Electric has both defog and rapid spin support for specs Zapdos, and given electric's momentum building its not the hardest thing in the world to get either of those two things off.
Point 6: You do see Zapdos on some double electric flying teams, or on rain offense teams. Its not quite as common as it is on electric because flying really needs the electric immunity that Thundurus-Therian offers. It isn't unheard of or even horribly uncommon to see specs Zapdos on offensive flying teams because of its ability to tear through rain water, offensively pressure dragon and steel etc. Species clause also kicks in when you want to run Zapdos-Galar, so thats another contributing factor to why its not on every flying team. Seeing Zapdos on flying teams isn't as uncommon as you think, its still an A ranked pokemon on flying for a reason.
Point 7: How viable a type would be after a ban is irrelevant even if I were to concede to the point that electric would suck after Zapdos being potentially banned. That didn't stop us from banning anything in the past, or even recently with Urshifu-S making fighting an ok mid-tier type to being irrelevant these days. Electric would still be a solid type even after Zapdos being gone, it would have to run one of the Thundurus forms to fit that pokemon slot which isn't the end of the world for the type. It would still have its place in the metagame for its high-octane offensive capabilities with hard hitting mons, momentum building and great speed control options.
Edit: few grammar mistakes I had to fix.
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1) again the commonness of electric means little and if anything is a good thing. Would 0 usage be better? if so just ban zapdos and you'll get that.
2) An extremely niche version of magnezone being a counter to excadrill is silly. I can make custom assault vest versions of numerous mons to counter zapdos. you can do that with any mon.
3) hurricane is a high risk high reward move. If it had 100% accuracy I would see where you're coming from but the idea that you could lose potentially your own ground counter if you miss is very risky and often causes hesitation about just spamming hurricane.
4) point 4 isn't just about me. My point is that running specs zapdos creates a very powerful pokemon but the loss of defensive zapdos pivot makes electric a lot less useful in numerous situations.
5) electric has like 1 defogger and 1 horrible rapid spinner. I think yall can handle it.
6) maybe we should look at Celesteela
7) You cant use this argument that " Electric is an insanely strong type in Monotype with great consistency. " and not accept counterarguments about how much it would suck if it was banned.
thundurus is not a replacement for zapdos. Electric would not be fine without zapdos. It would stuck in low tier...which would be super nice for flying. a type you main coincidently huh...
2) An extremely niche version of magnezone being a counter to excadrill is silly. I can make custom assault vest versions of numerous mons to counter zapdos. you can do that with any mon.
3) hurricane is a high risk high reward move. If it had 100% accuracy I would see where you're coming from but the idea that you could lose potentially your own ground counter if you miss is very risky and often causes hesitation about just spamming hurricane.
4) point 4 isn't just about me. My point is that running specs zapdos creates a very powerful pokemon but the loss of defensive zapdos pivot makes electric a lot less useful in numerous situations.
5) electric has like 1 defogger and 1 horrible rapid spinner. I think yall can handle it.
6) maybe we should look at Celesteela
7) You cant use this argument that " Electric is an insanely strong type in Monotype with great consistency. " and not accept counterarguments about how much it would suck if it was banned.
thundurus is not a replacement for zapdos. Electric would not be fine without zapdos. It would stuck in low tier...which would be super nice for flying. a type you main coincidently huh...
On the Topic of Zapdos:
I think Specs Zapdos is one of the main reasons Electric is the most played Type in any Tour right now. Voltswitch Hurricane Heatwave just make it VERY hard to switch into it. Oh you play Steel? well best of luck hitting every prediction right or you just lose a mon or a big chunk of Heatran. Oh you play Water? Hurricane just murks your team and once your Ground type drops you basically are dead to Tbolt or Voltswitch. I myself play Flying alot and play Specs Zapdos on my offensive teams cause it just is so incredibly hard to check.
On Tesla's comments:
Point 1: Tourplay is way more reflective of a types strenght then ladder is. You could play any type on Ladder and if you actually try it you will be able to hit high ladder if you are a good enough player for it. Electric being the most played Type in Seasonals should say alot about the pure strenght Electric has.
Point 2: Zapdos has no TRUE Switch ins. You basically A have to guess the move it presses right every time. B it Voltswitches out and your switch in is pressured out. Zapdos +Zeraora are just sooo incredibly strong together. Also "oh Electric has nothing to deal with excadrill" even tho they have Zone is just a false argument. Also, since Exca is not that fast any scarf OR alola raichu just force it out too (in Terrain obviously).
Point 3: With that reasoning you could argue for most mons to not be a problem ever. "oh they are unreliable with the moves" yes, hurricane doesn't hit ALL the time, but you can say the same thing about Focus Blast or HJK or Insert any non 100% accuracy move here. 70% still is a majority of the time and so you should argue from "if it hits" and not from "oh its not 100%
Point 4: Yeah Argument from Personal Experience are not in Question tho. You also play Sturdy Magnezone and it clearly is not the best in very situation.
Point 5: You got defog to support it and also Electric is such a offensive power house of a type that setting Rocks can be tough to even get to. You don't want to lose a mon just to set rocks that might just not even stay.
Point 6: It isn't even that rare on flying (in seasonals about 25%) and on top of that you got another Zapdos that also is very good for the type.
Point 7: I don't even agree with this. You got Ballon and Rotom still it`s not like there are 0 EQ switch ins. And Magnezone with Ballon Magnetrise Zone you can even stop Excadrill, which is steels way to deal with Electric to begin with.
Point 8: This is the same as Point 7 just rephrased. You still got good offensive Synergie on 6 mons and it would just take away from it's defensive ability which is not the main strenghtof Electric to begin with.
I myself play Flying and also enjoy Zapdos being around, but I have to look over that part and see it for what it is right now, it is just maybe even too strong in the current metagame. You should try to look past your "i play alot of electric and i need it" point and just try to see the problems it creates for EVERY other type in the metagame.
I think Specs Zapdos is one of the main reasons Electric is the most played Type in any Tour right now. Voltswitch Hurricane Heatwave just make it VERY hard to switch into it. Oh you play Steel? well best of luck hitting every prediction right or you just lose a mon or a big chunk of Heatran. Oh you play Water? Hurricane just murks your team and once your Ground type drops you basically are dead to Tbolt or Voltswitch. I myself play Flying alot and play Specs Zapdos on my offensive teams cause it just is so incredibly hard to check.
On Tesla's comments:
Point 1: Tourplay is way more reflective of a types strenght then ladder is. You could play any type on Ladder and if you actually try it you will be able to hit high ladder if you are a good enough player for it. Electric being the most played Type in Seasonals should say alot about the pure strenght Electric has.
Point 2: Zapdos has no TRUE Switch ins. You basically A have to guess the move it presses right every time. B it Voltswitches out and your switch in is pressured out. Zapdos +Zeraora are just sooo incredibly strong together. Also "oh Electric has nothing to deal with excadrill" even tho they have Zone is just a false argument. Also, since Exca is not that fast any scarf OR alola raichu just force it out too (in Terrain obviously).
Point 3: With that reasoning you could argue for most mons to not be a problem ever. "oh they are unreliable with the moves" yes, hurricane doesn't hit ALL the time, but you can say the same thing about Focus Blast or HJK or Insert any non 100% accuracy move here. 70% still is a majority of the time and so you should argue from "if it hits" and not from "oh its not 100%
Point 4: Yeah Argument from Personal Experience are not in Question tho. You also play Sturdy Magnezone and it clearly is not the best in very situation.
Point 5: You got defog to support it and also Electric is such a offensive power house of a type that setting Rocks can be tough to even get to. You don't want to lose a mon just to set rocks that might just not even stay.
Point 6: It isn't even that rare on flying (in seasonals about 25%) and on top of that you got another Zapdos that also is very good for the type.
Point 7: I don't even agree with this. You got Ballon and Rotom still it`s not like there are 0 EQ switch ins. And Magnezone with Ballon Magnetrise Zone you can even stop Excadrill, which is steels way to deal with Electric to begin with.
Point 8: This is the same as Point 7 just rephrased. You still got good offensive Synergie on 6 mons and it would just take away from it's defensive ability which is not the main strenghtof Electric to begin with.
I myself play Flying and also enjoy Zapdos being around, but I have to look over that part and see it for what it is right now, it is just maybe even too strong in the current metagame. You should try to look past your "i play alot of electric and i need it" point and just try to see the problems it creates for EVERY other type in the metagame.
not gonna comment all all of your points but to make it clear that u should NEVER hesitate banning a possibly broken/overcentralizing mon to preserve a playstyle. thats never how it works. if so we would be allowing marshadow on ghost and fighting to make them less dogshit, pheromosa on bug to make it usable- you get the point. just because electric may become shit after we ban zapdos should not hold any weight in this argument here. all we should b focusing on is the question on whether zapdos is truly banworthy or not. if it means keeping the meta healthy, there should b no question in banning smth even if it means the team structure(type in this case) it finds itself on becomes bad. a lot of other ppl already commented on your other points but this 1 is clearly the most egregious of them all and is not a real argument to keep zapdos.
on zapdos... err aeran and decem already said what i wanted to, and i have nothing to add so... pls suspect it
1. I was pointing out that your observations on electric's place in the metagame were flawed.
2. That magnezone set is relatively common across a good amount of electric teams in the metagame, while it does serve a specific purpose it can still function as a magnezone by trapping and removing certain pokemon.
3. I don't deny that hurricane is inaccurate and has risk, I'm saying that with as common as zapdos sees action it will be hitting hurricanes and shredding something during the battle.
4. With as many times as you talk about being top of the ladder with electric its hard to not come across as making the argument about yourself. I think that having the bulkier pivot zapdos is fine and all, but the conversation was more on how horrifying Zapdos is as a wallbreaker. If this was about Zapdos's defensive capabilities alone then nobody would be looking at Zapdos.
5. My point still stands. Electric has plenty of team support for offensive Zapdos.
6. If celesteela is broken then it should be looked at, I don't have any problems with getting rid of problematic pokemon.
7. I didn't say it would remain an insane type, I said that it would still have a good place in the metagame regardless because of those reasons I mentioned. That isn't me not accepting counterarguments, that is me not accepting bad ones.
Also saying that I main flying is hilarious, considering I mostly just use it on the ladder because of its consistency. I use way more types than just flying as anyone who I've played and hung out with outside of the ladder can attest to. My usage of flying isn't even relevant to the discussion at large and just seems like a petty jab lmao.
Electric is likely common in tournaments because it’s a good anti meta type. It does well versus the most common types ie steel flying and water. That makes it a wise choice in a tournament. This is the issue with assigning meaning to how common a type is in tours.
youre frequent usage of flying is not irrelevant. We all have unique perspectives that create a bias. I have been called out because I use electric in several debates including this one. Is Part of my bias and I’m heavily aware of it.Are you aware of yours ?
youre frequent usage of flying is not irrelevant. We all have unique perspectives that create a bias. I have been called out because I use electric in several debates including this one. Is Part of my bias and I’m heavily aware of it.Are you aware of yours ?
looking over bias is part of the reason why i argue for a suspect. I would love to keep it cause it makes flying very easy to play in certain MU. But banning it probably would create a way healthier metagame. Right now Electric is very much the center of the meta and not an "anti meta" pick. Flying Steel and Water being good is part of its strenght, but having no good checks for the Zeraora+Zapdos combo for example just pushes it over the top. Especially given that Zapdos can get Zera in with tempo
I'm fully aware of my biases, and ability to use other types besides one. Thank you very much.
I can use any type. I started using electric 8 years ago mainly because at the time it was literally the worst type and I liked the challenge. It ended up being a lot more fun of a type for me than the others so I play it exclusively. It is my belief that banning zapdos would make the type unviable, and likely worse than fighting is atm. I’d rather not have my type ruined because people can’t handle a Pokémon w 125 special attack and 100 speed
I apologize for the jab it was unfair of me
Lilymoding
formerly Kyosuru Jets
Not every type is going to have some wide array of defensive checks to strong wallbreakers. That doesn't mean the mon is broken, it *usually* means there's opportunity for offensive counterplay. Zapdos' speedtier is alright at best, base 100 isn't really cutting it. You're outsped by dangerous threats that Electric in particular doesn't have very many options for, things like dragapult, the latis, pretty much any scarf in the game, etc. You get worn down by hazards given your primary defogger has leftovers at most for recovery. Zapdos has access to strong pivoting, but the options zapdos can pivot into are still limited, which exacerbates the hazards weakness. The type doesn't have reliable ways to deal with heavy offensive pressure, and makes up for this by applying heavy offensive pressure. This isn't broken its game balance.
It would be one thing if this pressure being put out was broken and just absolutely unbeatable but it's not even unique. volcarona, kyurem, bulu, keldeo/terrak, lando-t, excadrill, lele all have comparable offensive potential, often times having better team synergy than zapdos. zapdos' pivot potential makes it good, yes, i dont want to deny that for a second, but it doesn't nearly break the game. The counterplay is there its just not brainless. in fact, I'd argue the mon you'd want to be looking at would be any mon that CAN just come in and invalidate all offensive pressure.
It would be one thing if this pressure being put out was broken and just absolutely unbeatable but it's not even unique. volcarona, kyurem, bulu, keldeo/terrak, lando-t, excadrill, lele all have comparable offensive potential, often times having better team synergy than zapdos. zapdos' pivot potential makes it good, yes, i dont want to deny that for a second, but it doesn't nearly break the game. The counterplay is there its just not brainless. in fact, I'd argue the mon you'd want to be looking at would be any mon that CAN just come in and invalidate all offensive pressure.