Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]

I'm sick of people unironically using Cradily in mono rock thinking it's a good pokemon. Would you guys be interested in an overly detailed and angry rant about Cradily in mono rock and why no one should ever use it?

Edit: I'm procrastinating on this a lot lol. Expect it to come out in 83 years.

Edit again: My draft got deleted. I didn't realize drafts couldn't be saved forever so rip.
 
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I'm sick of people unironically using Cradily in mono rock thinking it's a good pokemon. Would you guys be interested in an overly detailed and angry rant about Cradily in mono rock and why no one should ever use it?
I honestly like to hear it. I always thought it was quite ridiculous how rock could deal with water without crad.
 
I think Specs Nihilego? But then Swampert…
tbh, you need a rock type with grass coverage that is strong: ie power whip, giga drain, energy ball, leaf blade, grass knot. Nihilego is the only rock type with good spa and grass coverage(others are shit like kabutops with giga drain :| so it ain't gonna work) aside from crad of course. You also need specs to knock out swampert or you can meteor beam. So if you remove crad, nihi is the only option and it's shaky at best
 
I'm sick of people unironically using Cradily in mono rock thinking it's a good pokemon. Would you guys be interested in an overly detailed and angry rant about Cradily in mono rock and why no one should ever use it?
Way back when, Curse Cradily was an interesting prospect. Here's a possible set:

Cradily @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Power Whip / Seed Bomb
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

This gave a fighting chance against Water and Ground, and it's relatively easy to set up. The cons of this set was the fact that it's a bit passive/it's toxic bait. Other than that, 2-3 curses can do work! A similar set was used on grass teams with the grass STAB being traded for rock STAB instead.
 
The results of the survey that started on April 9th and was concluded recently can be found below.



- Qualified Voters

- Qualified Voters



Key statistics -
  • 63.4% of all respondents consider the metagame relatively enjoyable. (7-10 on a scale of 1-10)
  • 62.9% of all respondents consider the metagame relatively competitive. (7-10 on a scale of 1-10)
  • 54.9% of all respondents consider Moltres-Galar as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
  • 65.9% of qualified respondents consider Moltres-Galar as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
  • 32.3% of all respondents consider Kyurem as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
  • 34.1% of qualified respondents consider Kyurem as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
  • 18.3% of all respondents consider Aegislash as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
  • 19.3% of all respondents consider Tapu Lele as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
  • 24.7% of all respondents consider Icy Rock as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
Regarding potential action on Moltres-Galar, the survey results were not conclusive enough for immediate action to be taken in the build-up to MPL. However, the case for a suspect will be considered after MPL concludes. Thanks to everyone who responded for your insight.
MPL has concluded, are we going to suspect Moltres-Galar? I doubt opinions have changed much since the poll.

Incidentally, can we also suspect Zamazenta-hero? Fighting is basically unplayable at the moment, and I think freeing Zamazenta-Hero would help change that while not being overpowered given Zamazenta's lack of secondary STAB and good boosting moves. I have a hard time believing Zamazenta-H would be broken in a tier where it's locked to the worst type; in all honestly it would probably be worse than existing free Ubers (Kyurem, Spectier, Cinderace)
 
MPL has concluded, are we going to suspect Moltres-Galar? I doubt opinions have changed much since the poll.

Incidentally, can we also suspect Zamazenta-hero? Fighting is basically unplayable at the moment, and I think freeing Zamazenta-Hero would help change that while not being overpowered given Zamazenta's lack of secondary STAB and good boosting moves. I have a hard time believing Zamazenta-H would be broken in a tier where it's locked to the worst type; in all honestly it would probably be worse than existing free Ubers (Kyurem, Spectier, Cinderace)
favoring a type would go against mono tiering policy (suspecting to make fighting better) and its also defintely not a main focus of what the tier needs rn anyway. but i would also like to see another community survey come out to gauge community interest on a suspect or what they think might be unbalanced. i think ss right now is like balanced and doesnt need much changing but i think moltres galar deserves a suspect despite that. kyurem on the other hand rly isnt that bad and i wouldnt say its broken compared to if i was asked like during mpl; the meta has adapted to it. but yass community survey would be nice rn especially since the gen is closing out soon and i doubt ppl will wanna revisit ss/it would be very slow if we did when we get a brand new toy in the new gen.
 

Kev

Part of the journey is the end
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Just a reminder that this thread is for SS Monotype Discussion only, and gen 9 discussion should be avoided no matter how valid the arguments (had to delete a post).

It is without a doubt that gen 9 is bringing a very contentious change to Pokemon in the context of Monotype and will be something that we will have to discuss in great detail when the time comes. However, there is still a lot of uncertainty regarding the details and its preferable not to spoil others who wish to stay away from rumours / leaks. Of course, the trailers have given more than enough important, confirmed details to start a conversation but this isn't the place for that.

We will eventually release a thread relating to gen 9 speculations (or even a specific one focused on said massive change), but that will probably be closer to the actual release date. The council has not yet discussed the topic because there's still some very important key factors not yet confirmed which would potentially sway the discussion. I can't promise a specific timeline for the thread, but I'm probably waiting for either another big trailer with some important info regarding that topic or about a month prior to release. I don't think there would be much purpose to have a serious discussion involving hypotheticals.

However, if you do want to discuss gen 9 mechanics, pokemon, etc... feel free to discuss in the #gen9-spoilers channel in the Monotype discord! I do read that channel fairly often and despite it not being an official setting, the opinions & thoughts shared there can definitely help shape at least my personal view on the matter. Just please DO NOT post spoilers in other channels please ! Trailer info is generally fair game but still, would be best to contain talks in the spoiler channel to not ruin the game for others !
 
The results of the survey that started on April 9th and was concluded recently can be found below.



- Qualified Voters

  • 65.9% of qualified respondents consider Moltres-Galar as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
I'm not going to do an other post since my arguments will be the same, but ye truly I don't get what we are still waiting. As a small reminder, I do not think Goltres should be suspected only because it's a strong pokemon, but also (and maybe mostly) because of the high part of rng/uncertainty it brings to the game. While I feel like most of the community agrees for at least a suspect, there are also a lot of people who think Goltres should not be suspected now because they think a Kyurem suspect urges more (what also could make sense but it's not my point here) and they know we're never getting both.

I find it sad that because of "we shouldn't take action just before the next mwp/mpl" arguments we will never have the opportunity to let the metagame develop as CG in major tournaments after a Goltres ban if it gets finally banned after a suspect.
 

mushamu

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Incidentally, can we also suspect Zamazenta-hero? Fighting is basically unplayable at the moment, and I think freeing Zamazenta-Hero would help change that while not being overpowered given Zamazenta's lack of secondary STAB and good boosting moves. I have a hard time believing Zamazenta-H would be broken in a tier where it's locked to the worst type; in all honestly it would probably be worse than existing free Ubers (Kyurem, Spectier, Cinderace)
I disagree strongly with a Zamazenta suspect. With Zamazenta, Fighting can essentially pick a random type that it 6-0s because it can run a lot of sets when it's not confined to an item. It has 130 Attack, great bulk, and a decent amount of coverage especially for Monotype to be able to split apart teams effectively. Wild Charge, Crunch, Play Rough, Ice Fang... its movepool is good enough to take on a variety of top types. Its speed tier is also amazing, it can outspeed a bunch of things naturally, and it can outspeed Regieleki with a Choice Scarf. It does not put Fighting near anywhere the top types, yet it would still be broken in Monotype because of the power it gives to Fighting specifically as glue alongside how the rest of the metagame struggles to prepare for it; it would be very unhealthy. Alongside this, there are a lot of other Pokemon you could argue for a suspect, while the urge to bring Zamazenta into the tier is non-existent.
 

Magic Mayhem Maiden

formerly CorruptionInTheGovernment
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kings-rock-is-banned-along-with-other-items.3686808/

This was a long time ago, but I'm left wondering why Wide Lens (maybe Zoom/Scope Lens) weren't included. I could see an argument that they reduce an unfavorable outcome instead of adding an favorable outcome, but personally I don't sit well with only that.

I've looked in this forum and the tiering policy review, and I've seen similar notes unanswered.

(personally I'm fine with the outcome of the bans but the reasoning still irks me)
 

roxie

https://www.youtube.com/@noxiousroxie
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I've been healed of my Zapdos-Syndrome. I do not think either Kyurem or Galarian Moltres are broken.

Probability in Tiering

I want to address people adding the potential freeze and flinch from Kyurem and Galarian Moltres respectively as part of a reason to take ban action. It's part of the tiering policy rule #4 that we accept that probability management is part of the game we play. Are we going to ban Choice Band Mamoswine because it flinched your Ice neutrality, Celesteela in Monotype Ribbon Finals? I believe taking action on uncompetitive factors like Acupressure, Quick Claw, and evasion over secondary effects that many Pokemon have is a much wiser choice.

Galarian Moltres

Galarian Moltres runs a few sets in Monotype like Double Dance, ChestoResto + Nasty Plot, Substitute + Nasty Plot, Stallbreaker (Taunt), and even RestTalk. Looking over all the types, Galarian Moltres has multiple checks. There are some Pokemon that Galarian Moltres can get some free switch-ins to like Slowbro, Latias (Maybe stop using Stored Power Latias on Psychic and you can win against a Dark-type lol), and Ferrothorn but overall I don't think this Pokemon is causing the metagame to run unviables like Assault Vest Mawile to check its STABs.

Dark: Tyranitar / Weavile / Grimmsnarl / Bisharp
Dragon: Kyurem / Hydreigon (Fiery Wrath exclusive sets) / Choice Scarf Dragapult
Fairy / Electric / Ice: Shouldn't have issues.
Fire: Incineroar / Cinderace in Sun / Getting +2 Spa +2 Spe is hard overall considering how offensive/direct Fire is
Ghost: Mimikyu / Hyper Beam Spectrier / (Difficult MU in general)
Grass: Cradily / Whimsicott + Virizion + Bulu (Fiery Wrath exclusive)
Ground: Roar Hippowdon & Clear Smog Gastrodon makes it have low setup opportunities + Offensive Pokemon
Normal: Chansey / Snorlax
Poison: Nihilego (Nihilego + Core alone beats Ice, Flying, Fire, and Bug pretty well), Galarian Weezing+WW Drapion (Fiery Wrath exclusive) / Galarian Slowking to an extent
Psychic: Hatterne / Tapu Lele / Alakazam / Galarian Slowking to an extent
Steel: Heatran / AV Melmetal / Bisharp / Celesteela
Water: Tapu Fini / Swift Swim Water / Urshifu+Crawdaunt (Fiery Wrath exclusive) / Phaze Swampert

Kyurem

Overall, I believe Kyurem is on two weird types; Dragon having little-to-no defensive core and Ice relying on Cloyster for momentum and less commonly, Piloswine for a defensive core. I have to admit that Water and Ground don't have a switch-in to a Choice Specs Kyurem every single turn, however, I believe that running Choice Specs has drawbacks and due to the team structures, Kyurem is on, makes it more manageable than it seems.

"Kyurem vs Water"

I do believe that types like Water and Ground have ways of beating the Ice matchup offensively. Water can run offensive options like Kingdra, Cloyster, and Urshifu+Tapu Fini for Dragon and Cloyster, Urshifu-R, and Volcanion for Ice. By running Choice Specs Kyurem on Ice you're giving up both HDB and Chople Berry as options making you more prone to both entry hazards and Urshifu-R, respectively. Personally, I've tried Choice Specs Kyurem and had to use Froslass as a soft check just to not be CC spammed but I was pretty much forced out by Urshifu-R multiple turns. Slowking on the other hand can always be switched into the Substitute Kyurem and pressure both Ice and Dragon with Urshifu-S's Close Combat + Future Sight. Walrein has been tested for Kyurem but I only see that as a decent option for the Dragon matchup. The Roar + Rest/Protect set doesn't seem to do much if you're phazing threats like Arctozolt and SD Weavile. Like if you phaze in an Arctozolt with Hail up, do you sack your Walrein so it doesn't Substitute, or do you "switch out" on a potential Substitute and save it for "checking" Kyurem later. Choice Specs Draco Meteor hits Walrein pretty hard as well.

"Kyurem vs Ground"

Nothing switches into Choice Specs Kyurem unless you're running Assault Vest Mamoswine to not have one of your Pokemon completely sacked.

Mamoswine is a soft check to SubRoost Kyurem thanks to Thick Fat and honestly, Kyurem isn't getting Substitute up very freely unless it's in front of a Gastrodon. Ground can put up a great matchup against Dragon with Excadrill, Mamoswine, and Landorus-T. Dragon lacks a defensive core as mentioned before and from a Sand Rush POV, Choice Band Excadrill makes major progress and Mamoswine cleans with Ice Shard. Sandless is the same way with Mamoswine + really any Choice Scarfer (Landorus-T/Excadrill/Garchomp). 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Excadrill eats a Choice Specs Earth Power from a Kyurem! Iron Head does enough damage where Stealth Rocks KOes Kyurem aswell. (Keep note that Dragon also has very poor hazard control).

Ground vs Ice is quite the matchup, and it's like Flying vs Ice honestly. It's a hard matchup overall and Kyurem is not the main threat. You have a Weavile that Knocks Off your neutrality, Arctozolt, Kyurem, Alolan Ninetales, and more.

"Kyurem vs Flying"

Arctozolt + Kyurem + Weavile + Galarian Darmanitan. Is this really a Kyurem-based issue or is this a general hard matchup in Monotype. If you aren't using Skarmory to absorb Knock Offs + Celesteela to check Kyurem, respectively, that matchup seems hella out the window. Celesteela just gets Knock'd by Weavile, the Ice user goes into Cloyster, Clicks Teleport, then goes into Arctozolt or Weavile again.

Dragon overall hates Celesteela tremendously and if you play Galarian Moltres + Celesteela + Scarf right you can win.

tldr: Flinch/Freeze goes against tiering policy, Galarian Moltres is balanced, Water & Ground can beat Ice & Dragon, Flying vs Ice is a Monotype moment without Skarmory.
There is still an abundance of opinions in the Monotype room in regards to Kyurem, both advocating for and against a suspect test. However, I fail to see any arguments that, when broken down, don't originate in an idea that is close to, if not already, violating the tiering policy. A lot of the reasoning seems to stem from complaints about Kyurem catching or fishing for freezes, which admittedly does impact some games.

Evasion clause moves such as Double Team, Minimize, and Acupressure are being compared with freezes from Kyurem. These situations are different, despite both utilizing RNG. Inconsistent freezes from Kyurem are not a direct comparison to a pokemon benefitting from gaining evasion boosts and being able to sweep an entire team, given enough decent rolls. Inconsistent freezing impacts, generally, at most one pokemon, which still has chances to thaw on its own and/or by moves it or an opponent's pokemon may carry/use.

Let's actually analyze these games.

Game 1: Swords Dance Garchomp claims 1, Dragapult KOes Landorus-T. It's turn 10, kyurem hasn't come out yet. Please note, Hydreigon AND Dragapult are running Fire Blast for Celesteela and Corviknight. Kyurem is 1v1 vs a Brave Bird Corviknight and on the second Brave Bird when Kyurem is about die, Corviknight freezes. The Corviknight is at 38 HP btw so after Brave Bird and Leftovers, its left at 27 HP. There is a Fire Blast Dragapult, Healing Wish Latias, SD Lum Garchomp, Fire Blast/Flame + Draco Hydreigon, + Slow Pivot Dragalge left. It's hard to visualize that this turn made a humongous impact because at the beginning of the match, two Pokemon died vs Flying and Kyurem wasn't even out.

Game 2: Garchomp flinched a Celesteela with Fire Fang. The Ground immunity died to a Pokemon factor not involving Freeze Dry and EP Kyurem went in. The team is heavily reliant on Celesteela to check Kyurem and Garchomp as a Steel team. Side note: Iron head Celesteela is a nice midground so you can run Air Slash on Celesteela for Urshifu+Kommo+Zarude.

Game 3: Clicking Sludge Wave as Nidoking vs Piloswine drained all the momentum you wanted for this matchup. Recovering vs Weavile instead of clicking Toxic was a better play. The Toxic play was predicting the Kyurem but their wincon isn't Kyurem, its Weavile. The Mamoswine is running Assault Vest and Mamoswine's job at the point was literally to prevent substitute on Kyurem so Excadrill can safely revenge kill. Gastrodon recovering its health means it beat Weavile.

"At the end of the day, if players enjoy a Freeze-less meta more (long-term) I would agree with getting rid of Freeze, or other pesky mechanics, using the fun argument over poorly defined competitiveness or the supposed lack thereof. But I think that isn't the case. I think the blame is being deflected and people are lying to themselves about wanting an RNG-free game, and I think that dealing with, and managing RNG is one of the more uniquely fun features of competitive Pokemon, hence me writing this post. Thanks for reading if you did." - Charmflash , Policy Review - Freeze Clause
 

Azick

Love Sosa
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Kyurem and Moltres-G have long been some of the strongest and most discussed pokemon in the SS meta, both considered heavily for suspects at earlier points. As the meta has progressed Goltres has become far less of a potent threat with the meta adapting to it quite well, even to the point where many flying teams no longer utilize it. In fact in the earlier stage of post-DLC I was convinced Goltres was too strong for the meta while Kyurem was relatively healthy, but as the meta's progressed my opinions have flipped.


Kyurem's very solid hp sitting at 125 when combined with decent defensive and speed stats, along with heavy duty boots, allow it to utilize pressure extremely well with the most common sub roost set. Played properly it can single-handedly destroy a significant amount of the meta. Going through some matchups concerning higher-tier types:

Electric: Kyurem subsets on Rotom-W and can reset subs on volts from regi/koko ect and keep its hp up with roost while ep/freeze dry allow it to hit the entire type super-effectively.
Flying: The most commonly used check to Kyurem on flying is Celesteela, however unless running dual steel stab you will run out of heavy slams quickly and if you mispredict 1-2 leeches Kyurem will kill Cele while having a sub up for whatever comes in next. It outspeeds mostly the whole type except for Tornadus-T(which it Beats 1 on 1 if Torn isn't already set)/Scarf Zap and has little trouble going through Flying. The only real checks are Scarf G-Zap and Corvinkight. Concerning the Ice matchup having a screen up allows it to become far easier for Kyurem to get in a position where it can maintain subs and beat G-Zap and concerning the Dragon there are many options to take care of both.
Ground: Ground can attempt to offensively pressure Kyurem with Exca/Band Mamoswine but in my experience once you get Kyurem in against a Gastro it's subbing and getting 2-3 kills. Scarf adamant Excadrill fails to OHKO Kyurem with Iron Head and Assault Vest Mamo is 1v1'd running out of Crash/EQ before it can do real damage.
Poison: The standard regen core on poison is quite easy to break with Kyurem. Gloking can help but it will run out of sludges quickly as Kyurem pressure stalls and you have 5 more mons to deal w fsight attempting to break the sub. The only real check it has is Nihilego which can take a single Earth Power at most or spam switching regenerator Pokemon around to try and pp stall it.
Steel: The best example for just how ridiculous this Pokemon can be. Kyurem can subset on Ferrothorn, 1 on 1 Aegislash, EP Heatran, do the aforementioned pressure stall against Cele, and kill a chipped Exca behind sub/if Kyurem is at full. In general once a Steel team is chipped(specifically Melm/Corv) Kyurem can 1 on 1 the rest of the team late game. That said, I'm not saying the ice/steel matchup is ice favored as smart players will ensure to keep their Melm out of EP range or their Corv around, but a couple misplays and a properly set up Kyurem can win. The Dragon m/u is entirely different of course.
Water: Little to say here, FD is insane and subbing on water isn't hard. Options to pressure with scarf shifu/skewda/scarf fini and light screen slowking is a soft check, but it's not hard to play around those things, especially as Skewda/Shifu are not able to take a FD(81% chance to ohko shifu from full) and pivoting to break the sub can just be an opportunity to resub and stall out rain turns so Skewda flip doesn't break.

Contrary to what it may seem, I don't think Kyurem is "broken" as defined in tiering policy; It has checks/opportunities to pressure on all of the types I just listed(maybe not electric), and the average player will struggle to pull off the right game setup to pull off a Kyurem "sweep." However most any "above average" player knows exactly how to play it into the perfect position to either pull off a "sweep" or get multiple kills in these m/us so they can win the game relatively easily in another way. It can be a hard Pokemon to play perfectly, but it's been in the meta for quite some time, and experienced players can use it to win with little skill required. I didn't follow MPL super closely and I can't seem to find the usage statistics, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Kyurem's performance, among these top players, was extremely good and skewed compared to other Pokemon.

Quick thoughts on freezes as people always bring them up when discussing Kyurem. Tiering policy doesn't concern itself with RNG and that's perfectly understandable, and something like Goltres' flinch chance with Fiery Wrath was not near as talked about in that discussion as Freezes with Kyurem are. The reason I think this is quite simple, Kyurem is the only viable Pokemon I can think of that has access to a freeze status move, that is also bulky enough to be able to throw out 10-20 of them per game. Ex: Ninetails has freeze dry, but it's not throwing out more than like 3-5 per game because it's frail and has no recovery. Overall, this is not an argument to ban Kyurem and I have never considered it one, but there is a reason why people always bring it up.

Final Thoughts: Kyurem is nowhere near the most unhealthy pokemon/banned element that has been in the mono meta over the years, but an experienced player knows how to use it in a way that requires little skill to win a myriad of matchups. The meta has failed to adapt to it like it has to Goltres with many checks being created over time, but none of them sticking because they generally are just a Kyurem fish(like Walrein) that fail to do much else of use or they are unable to deal with pressure stall(like Celesteela). I believe Kyurem has been over-centralizing in higher tier play for quite some time and it warrants a suspect test.
 

maroon

free palestine
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RMT & Mono Leader
Kyurem and Moltres-G have long been some of the strongest and most discussed pokemon in the SS meta, both considered heavily for suspects at earlier points. As the meta has progressed Goltres has become far less of a potent threat with the meta adapting to it quite well, even to the point where many flying teams no longer utilize it. In fact in the earlier stage of post-DLC I was convinced Goltres was too strong for the meta while Kyurem was relatively healthy, but as the meta's progressed my opinions have flipped.


Kyurem's very solid hp sitting at 125 when combined with decent defensive and speed stats, along with heavy duty boots, allow it to utilize pressure extremely well with the most common sub roost set. Played properly it can single-handedly destroy a significant amount of the meta. Going through some matchups concerning higher-tier types:

Electric: Kyurem subsets on Rotom-W and can reset subs on volts from regi/koko ect and keep its hp up with roost while ep/freeze dry allow it to hit the entire type super-effectively.
Flying: The most commonly used check to Kyurem on flying is Celesteela, however unless running dual steel stab you will run out of heavy slams quickly and if you mispredict 1-2 leeches Kyurem will kill Cele while having a sub up for whatever comes in next. It outspeeds mostly the whole type except for Tornadus-T(which it Beats 1 on 1 if Torn isn't already set)/Scarf Zap and has little trouble going through Flying. The only real checks are Scarf G-Zap and Corvinkight. Concerning the Ice matchup having a screen up allows it to become far easier for Kyurem to get in a position where it can maintain subs and beat G-Zap and concerning the Dragon there are many options to take care of both.
Ground: Ground can attempt to offensively pressure Kyurem with Exca/Band Mamoswine but in my experience once you get Kyurem in against a Gastro it's subbing and getting 2-3 kills. Scarf adamant Excadrill fails to OHKO Kyurem with Iron Head and Assault Vest Mamo is 1v1'd running out of Crash/EQ before it can do real damage.
Poison: The standard regen core on poison is quite easy to break with Kyurem. Gloking can help but it will run out of sludges quickly as Kyurem pressure stalls and you have 5 more mons to deal w fsight attempting to break the sub. The only real check it has is Nihilego which can take a single Earth Power at most or spam switching regenerator Pokemon around to try and pp stall it.
Steel: The best example for just how ridiculous this Pokemon can be. Kyurem can subset on Ferrothorn, 1 on 1 Aegislash, EP Heatran, do the aforementioned pressure stall against Cele, and kill a chipped Exca behind sub/if Kyurem is at full. In general once a Steel team is chipped(specifically Melm/Corv) Kyurem can 1 on 1 the rest of the team late game. That said, I'm not saying the ice/steel matchup is ice favored as smart players will ensure to keep their Melm out of EP range or their Corv around, but a couple misplays and a properly set up Kyurem can win. The Dragon m/u is entirely different of course.
Water: Little to say here, FD is insane and subbing on water isn't hard. Options to pressure with scarf shifu/skewda/scarf fini and light screen slowking is a soft check, but it's not hard to play around those things, especially as Skewda/Shifu are not able to take a FD(81% chance to ohko shifu from full) and pivoting to break the sub can just be an opportunity to resub and stall out rain turns so Skewda flip doesn't break.

Contrary to what it may seem, I don't think Kyurem is "broken" as defined in tiering policy; It has checks/opportunities to pressure on all of the types I just listed(maybe not electric), and the average player will struggle to pull off the right game setup to pull off a Kyurem "sweep." However most any "above average" player knows exactly how to play it into the perfect position to either pull off a "sweep" or get multiple kills in these m/us so they can win the game relatively easily in another way. It can be a hard Pokemon to play perfectly, but it's been in the meta for quite some time, and experienced players can use it to win with little skill required. I didn't follow MPL super closely and I can't seem to find the usage statistics, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Kyurem's performance, among these top players, was extremely good and skewed compared to other Pokemon.

Quick thoughts on freezes as people always bring them up when discussing Kyurem. Tiering policy doesn't concern itself with RNG and that's perfectly understandable, and something like Goltres' flinch chance with Fiery Wrath was not near as talked about in that discussion as Freezes with Kyurem are. The reason I think this is quite simple, Kyurem is the only viable Pokemon I can think of that has access to a freeze status move, that is also bulky enough to be able to throw out 10-20 of them per game. Ex: Ninetails has freeze dry, but it's not throwing out more than like 3-5 per game because it's frail and has no recovery. Overall, this is not an argument to ban Kyurem and I have never considered it one, but there is a reason why people always bring it up.

Final Thoughts: Kyurem is nowhere near the most unhealthy pokemon/banned element that has been in the mono meta over the years, but an experienced player knows how to use it in a way that requires little skill to win a myriad of matchups. The meta has failed to adapt to it like it has to Goltres with many checks being created over time, but none of them sticking because they generally are just a Kyurem fish(like Walrein) that fail to do much else of use or they are unable to deal with pressure stall(like Celesteela). I believe Kyurem has been over-centralizing in higher tier play for quite some time and it warrants a suspect test.
going to use this post to tackle two pokemon i keep hearing people bring up. many people believe kyurem and galarian moltres were a problem before mpl started, as seen through the survey. it was decided that since mpl was just around the corner at least galarian moltres would be looked at it to see if it was a problem, for the sake of this post lets include kyurem here as well. during mpl its true ice, dragon, flying, and dark received a fair bit of usage. however as seen by mpl none of them were overwhelming presences in the metagame as 3/4 types they can be used on didn't even win over 50% of the time, while Dark did it only had a 56% percent rate. I think this pretty clearly shows at least at a high level that both kyurem and galarian moltres are not broken and the metagame has in some shape adapted to them. this is why i also don't necessarily see the value in the centralization argument, since I believe there will always be Pokemon that have a strong affect on the metagame. I feel like every generation has had a few outliers that always have hung on the edge, unless they are directly creating and unbalanced/unhealthy metagame there is no reason to take action against them. i feel like eien summed it up nicely for sm and that the same type of idea carries into ss with these two pokemon.


personally, I never really believed galarian moltres or kyurem were necessarily broken/unhealthy, since they both have quite a few relevant and strong checks in the metagame and no type outright just loses to them. i think the metagame is fine with these two at the moment.
 

Azick

Love Sosa
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
going to use this post to tackle two pokemon i keep hearing people bring up. many people believe kyurem and galarian moltres were a problem before mpl started, as seen through the survey. it was decided that since mpl was just around the corner at least galarian moltres would be looked at it to see if it was a problem, for the sake of this post lets include kyurem here as well. during mpl its true ice, dragon, flying, and dark received a fair bit of usage. however as seen by mpl none of them were overwhelming presences in the metagame as 3/4 types they can be used on didn't even win over 50% of the time, while Dark did it only had a 56% percent rate. I think this pretty clearly shows at least at a high level that both kyurem and galarian moltres are not broken and the metagame has in some shape adapted to them. this is why i also don't necessarily see the value in the centralization argument, since I believe there will always be Pokemon that have a strong affect on the metagame. I feel like every generation has had a few outliers that always have hung on the edge, unless they are directly creating and unbalanced/unhealthy metagame there is no reason to take action against them. i feel like eien summed it up nicely for sm and that the same type of idea carries into ss with these two pokemon.


personally, I never really believed galarian moltres or kyurem were necessarily broken/unhealthy, since they both have quite a few relevant and strong checks in the metagame and no type outright just loses to them. i think the metagame is fine with these two at the moment.
I completely agree with Eien's point, however throughout the post-DLC generation I haven't seen anything in the meta except for one specific Pokemon, being Kyurem, that has continued to be (in my opinion) unhealthy over many months of meta progression. To follow up on that as it is kind of contradictory my earlier point, I did think Kyurem was perfectly fine months ago, but I think that was more due to my higher focus on Goltres, less personal experience, and people not knowing how to use it as well. Now if we were to ban Kyurem it could cause too much of a meta shift and lead to more problems than it solves, but I think it is quite difficult to determine that through only talking about it. I'm on the fence about banning it for this reason, but having a suspect with Kyurem taken off the ladder would allow us to see how the meta functions without it, and if it causes too much of a shift that removing it unbalances the meta more strongly, then at least we would know.

Edit: I think I failed to explain this well, perhaps I'm misinterpreting what Eien is saying but overall what I mean to say is Kyurem is not a "best mon," its an unhealthy mon that can render more skillful play irrelevant. So whether or not it could cause other problems shouldn't be the discussion, an unhealthy pokemon should be looked at because its unhealthy, not ignored because it could hypothetically unbalance the meta.
 
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OK I was going to write an article about this in Flying Press, but with Scarlet and Violet coming soon that probably won't get approved. So I thought I'd share it here instead.

Top 5 Worst Types in SS Monotype
5th place: Bug

The addition of Heavy-Duty Boots means Sticky Web teams are much less consistent now. Bug also lost its main powerhouses in Mega Pinsir and Mega Heracross, so Bug teams don't dish out that much damage. The type itself is bad offensively and defensively, they're stuck low speed and mediocre bulk. While Bug has no problem setting hazards, getting rid of them can be a big problem: your options are more or less limited to Armaldo. It's also just straight up outclassed: Fire, Water and Electric all do the all-out offensive type better. While you could do worse than Bug (see below) you could also do a lot better.

4th place: Fighting

If you're laddering with a Fighting team, get ready to be stopped cold by Toxapex, swept easily by Psychic and Fairy, and dread seeing Flying (arguably the best type) in the team preview. You also need to get ready for never having enough slots on your team, and thus deciding what you want to lose to. Bring Toxacroak to check Rain HO Water, but then you'll struggle with balance Poison. Bring Scarf Buzzwole or Heracross to check Psychic, but then you'll struggle more with Fairy and Flying. Hazard control is another serious problem for Fighting teams. Cobalion is the only good Stealth Rock setter, and unless you want to run Rapid Spin Hitmonlee or Defog Hawlucha (you don't, Hitmonlee sucks and Hawlucha has better things to do) once your opponent gets the hazards up, they're staying there. Stealth Rock is a minor inconvenience, but God help you if they have Sticky Web since you're so reliant on Scarf users. It doesn't even reliably beat Steel, since the Aegislash + Celesteela/Corviknight/Skarmory core shuts down most Fighting types.

3rd place: Grass

When it comes to bad matchups, Grass arguably has more than any other type. Bug, Flying, Ice, Fire, Poison, Dragon, Steel, all of them eat Grass teams for breakfast without even stopping to chew. While the Grass type does have some nice resistances, it ties with Rock for the most weaknesses, meaning almost every type has Pokemon Grass types fear - Dark has Goltres, Fairy has Togekiss, Electric has Zapdos. It's also very weak offensively, being resisted by 7 types. Almost everything on a Grass team is weak to Fire, so against any team that has them, you're in trouble. Cradily offers a neutrality, but it's very passive. Grass teams in general tend to be quite passive, and unlike Poison don't have a Regenerator core to fall back on (I mean technically you could run Amoongus + Tangrowth, but why would you?).

2nd place: Rock

Now, take the lacking Speed of the Bug type, 5 common weaknesses of the Grass type, and add a general layer of suckiness on top, and you have the Rock type. Good luck finding a team of any type that has no Water, Grass, Ground, Fighting or Steel types. Even the types it should do well against like Bug, Fire and Flying all have Pokemon that can sweep Rock teams: Swords Dance Scizor, Bulk Up Cinderace and offensive Landorus-T, respectively. Hell even Normal can bring Bewear which gives Rock a lot of trouble. Hazard removal's a pain too, unless you want to bring Armaldo or Defog Aerodactyl. The only type Rock can reliably beat is Ice, and even then, it still doesn't like dealing with the likes of Galarian Darmanitan.

1st place: Normal

What could be worse than a slow type with lots of weaknesses, low speed, bad hazard control and very few good matchups? A slow type with no resistances, bad hazard control, a small pool of viable Pokemon, a propensity to get worn down quickly and not one reliable match up. Ghost is the closest it has, and even then Ghost teams can wear Normal teams down quickly with entry hazards and status. The Chansey + Porygon2 walling core is nowhere near as good as it might appear on paper, as both are reliant on Eviolite and thus have to be very careful of Knock Off and are very susceptible to passive damage. It also doesn't have any good sweepers apart from Snorlax, which isn't too difficult to stop if you don't let it get multiple Curses off. Gen 8 just gutted Normal - it lost its main hazard setter in Smeargle, its main sweeper with the loss of Z Moves, its anti-offense option with Mega Lopunny and its Fighting check with Mega Pidgeot.


While you still could use any of these types, be prepared that you will have a more difficult time laddering. Do you guys agree with me?
 
I'd definitely swap fighting and normal. Normal still isn't good but fighting is way way worse than it looks. There really isn't anything about mono fighting you haven't mentioned already, I just think it's flaws are way too drastic compared to it's tiny speck of a niche to ever be worth using.
 

Dead by Daylight

memory tapes cycling blankly
is a Pre-Contributor
As a Grass player, I’d say being able to beat the ubiquitous Water and soft check Electric is enough to not have it at #3.

Additionally, Bug is decent this gen. While HDB lets things ignore Sticky Web, not everything runs it and Bug can also use it to ignore Stealth Rock, a bane of it with its lack of hazard control.

I'd definitely swap fighting and normal. Normal still isn't good but fighting is way way worse than it looks. There really isn't anything about mono fighting you haven't mentioned already, I just think it's flaws are way too drastic compared to it's tiny speck of a niche to ever be worth using.
Definitely, Fighting just gets blanked by every great type.
 

Dead by Daylight

memory tapes cycling blankly
is a Pre-Contributor
To add to my point, here’s a tier list I made!

37CC60E8-B57A-4FA9-BFCA-0AE2FBCE444F.png


While this may not seem like such a bad matchup chart, keep in mind that it loses to 2 of the top types in the metagame, while being quite hard to make work against another few top-5 types. Its advantages (besides Dark, Ice and maybe Normal) aren’t super useful.

Unwinnable:

Fairy:
Not much explanation in my eyes. Fairy is only threatened by Terrakion or the rare Toxicroak, whom the ever-present Klefki can stop with Thunder Wave or screens. In return, you die to everything: Bulu soft checks Terrakion, Scarf Lele sweeps, you get the point.

Psychic: Less unwinnable, as adaptations have emerged such as Pangoro. However, it just doesn’t win even with it, as Tapu Lele rips through the team with semi-decent play.

Significant Disadvantage:

Electric: Alolan Raichu can beat teams lacking priority, while the Rotom forms can blank a lot of dangerous attacks.

Mobile is a little glitchy, so I’ll get back to you all on laptop.
 

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