Resource SS Monotype Viability Rankings [Crown Tundra]

[Kaguya Lys]

While i do agree on certain aspects, there are some things that must be pointed:

• While Alakazam can play mindgames and have raw power with Life Orb, it is frailer than Azelf. It can also play mindgames because, as you said, it can be either a setup sweeper (I wouldn't call it Glass Cannon since it has enough bulk to take some hits) or a Explosion Lead.
• Latios and Latias have better bulk and recovery, but these Pokemon, from what i know, commonly play other roles that arent the ones you mencionated. For example, Defog sets are more common because they can outspeed Galvantula and other hazard setters while doing good damage. I could be mistaken, so if you could tell me, i would like it
• Lele and Victini are staples of the Psychic teams, we know that, but Azelf can dish out quicker and powerful hits, since these two Pokemon commonly run Specs and Band, respectively. And while yes, Psychic teams could have problems with the Ghost matchup, Pokemon like Jirachi and Victini have enough bulk to take a hit and damage back. And, if you look, Indeedee-M is ranked on the D Tier. There are also only 2 Pokemon on the Ghost teams that can outspeed Azelf, meaning it can take care of this matchup with the correct teammates. As i mentioned, Azelf also carries fire moves that are stronger than Mystical Fire so i think the only reason to use Hatterene is Magic Bounce, and maybe a bulky setup sweeper. I could be wrong on this, so you can tell me if i am.

Im still convinced that Azelf is worth B-Tier.

1. I think the mind game is over if you don't lead with Azelf tbh and if you lead with it and start Nasty Plotting, you're getting a kill at most since it should be primed for a revenge kill. Your strat is blown at that point.
2. In a heavy duty boots metagame and Victini being the main/often only victim of hazards, I could not disagree more with this point. Psychic does not necessarily have to clear hazards. Latias and Latios are used for their reliable revenge killing, utility with Trick/Defog/HWish or CM/CP setup.
3. When you say "Azelf can dish out quicker and powerful hits", quicker sure but powerful? Nothing enjoys switching in to even non-banded/specs V Create or Terrain boosted Psychic. I don't see setting up once and being able to hit hard as a special, especially if you are frail enough to be in revenge kill range and lack priority. This is why pokemon like Swoobat and most Shell Smashers aren't really relevant.
4. The reason why I mentioned Indeedee-M is because it lives in a very similar situation to Azelf. It is a very good pokemon for Psychic, however made very irrelevant by Tapu Lele. If not for the likes Lele and Victini, Azelf might have more viability.
5. "There are also only 2 Pokemon on the Ghost teams that can outspeed Azelf, meaning it can take care of this matchup with the correct teammates". This statement is very misleading. You speed tie with Gengar and get outsped by Spectrier and Dragapult and at least 2 of these 3 are staples on Ghost. Not to mention the revenge potential from Shadow Sneak from Mimikyu and any other niche ghost type. Azelf gets a kill then runs, that's if Jellicent/Corsola/Aegislash allows them to. This wall-breaking task is achievable by a Victini or Lele once again.
6. Check replays from recent tournaments such as MLT or Fall Seasonals to see the rampage caused pre-DLC 2 by CM DKiss Hatterene, it is one of the scariest set up sweepers even in this meta and should not be in the same ball park as Azelf. In gen8, almost every Psychic pokemon under the sun got fire coverage, I don't see it as special and did I forget to mention Victini makes fire coverage moderately obsolete?

Like DYA said Azelf's main issue is that it is outclassed by other Pokemon and struggles to fit in a serious Psychic lineup.
A template could be Specs Lele, Band Victini, Scarf Latias, Def Slowbro, SpDefRocks Jirachi and Stallbreak Mew/Sash Alakazam. I believe Azelf could only slip in as the last slot but provides wall-break potential covered by the first 2 or a decent lead covered by Jirachi.

In all this conversation, I realised that Necrozma has more potential than Azelf in the sense of flexibility of sets and setup potential. I don't want to spark any more debates however it shows that C-rank is no joke of a tier. Azelf is very well suited for C-rank, the step up to B-tier is too massive and I think it would take either recovery options or screens being viable on Psychic for it to improve it's standing.

 

[StellaAthena]

(Dark) C->B/A: Galarian Moltres is the best possible answer to Keldeo that Dark currently has. Though not fool-proof, as it can't switch into Specs Secret Sword (the attack doing a minimum of 70.4%), it can threaten the beast out, lest Keldeo give it a free +1 Special Attack as it Agilities. In addition, thanks to Agility and STAB Air Slash, Galarian Moltres offers a very good answer to Fighting, cleaving through most, if not, all Pokemon on it. While 100 Special Attack isn't very impressive, thanks to Fiery Wrath, a +2 Galarian Moltres' Fiery Wrath is only slightly weaker than a +2 Hydreigon's Dark Pulse. Once it chooses which move it wants to use (Agility vs Offense / Nasty Plot vs Defense), it can be insanely difficult to stop, especially given it's bulk. Where Galarian Moltres fails, however, is in versatility and coverage. It can only run the double dance set, and against Rock or Dark (given Tyranitar's presence), it can be outright useless, being forced to play 5v6 until Tyranitar goes down. Klefki does resist both STABs, but Klefki can't actually hurt Galarian Moltres unless it carries the rare Play Rough, meaning it's nothing more than Nasty Plot fodder on Fairy. I'd like to nominate it for B, though A might not be too off a placement for it either.

When you run Moltres-G do you also run Mandibuzz? The fact that the two Pokémon have the same typing has caused hesitancy in a lot of people in this forum in the past.

Re: Azelf, I think you are overselling how good it is against those types.

Dark: Loses to TTar and at least one set of every common offensive Pokémon

It is stopped by TTar

252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 148-177 (43.4 - 51.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Azelf: 296-350 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It is OHKO by Urshifu’s and Bisharp’s Sucker Punch and, is outsped and OHKO’d by Scarf Urshifu, Hydreigon and Krookadile. It is outsped and OHKO’d by every Weaville set.

After it’s taken some chip, it’s handled by Crawdaunt’s Aqua Jet which does 61% - 73%. For example, after rocks and one LO recoil, it has a 50% chance to trade with Crawdaunt.

If anyone is running Sharpedo still, Protect + Crunch outspeeds and OHKOs.

Ghost: loses to every S-, A-, or B-rank Pokemon
It is outsped and OHKO’d by Scarf Chandelure, Scarf Blacephelon, every Dragapult set other than Hex, Scarf Gengar, and every Spectier set. It is also OHKO by +2 Mimikyu Shadow Sneak or +0 Mimikyu Shadow Claw.

Corsola-G 1v1s it under worst case assumptions

For reference:
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 101-121 (31.1 - 37.3%) -- 77.5% chance to 3HKO
Azelf has 229 Att with 0 IVs and a hindering nature

Start: Azelf (291), Corsola-G (324)
R1: Psyshock, Night Shade, 229 Atk (162, 203)
R2: Psyshock, Sap Strength, 152 Atk (133, 311)
R3 Psyshock, Sap Strength, 114 Atk (104, 342)
R4: Psyshock, Night Shade, 114 Atk (-25, 221)

If you take a turn off to Nasty Plot, you still lose because at +2 you max out at 201 damage.
Start: Azelf (291), Corsola-G (324)
R1: Psyshock, Night Shade, 229 Atk (162, 203)
R2: Psyshock, Sap Strength, 152 Atk (133, 311)
R3 Nasty Plot, Sap Strength, 114 Atk (133, 324)
R4: Psyshock, Sap Strength, 91 (104, 237)
R5: Psyshock, Night Shade, 91 Atk (-25, 36)

Based on common sets, here’s a more realistic calc:
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 83-99 (25.6 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO.
It is OHKO’d by Aegislash, and can’t even kill max attack/max speed sets. It is OHKO’d by +2 Aegislash’s Shadow Sneak.

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252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Steel: Doesn’t preform well against any S-rank Pokémon and about half the A- and B-rank ones.
It is OHKO’d by Aegislash, and can’t even kill max attack/max speed sets. It is OHKO’d by +2 Aegislash’s Shadow Sneak.

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252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its Heatran MU is a joke

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252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 78-94 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

It is outsped and OHKO’d by Scarf Kartana. Scarf Jirachi does a minimum 58% u-turning on it.

While it can 2HKO Celesteela, it takes 59% - 70% from Heavy Slam in return. It can’t kill Melmetal and is OHKO’d by it. It can’t even kill Excadrill with Flamethrower, and it has a less than 50% chance to kill Excadrill with Fire Blast. Meanwhile Excadrill outspeeds it and has a 25% chance to OHKO after Rocks and a 93% chance to OHKO after Rocks + LO Recoil.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

When you run Moltres-G do you also run Mandibuzz? The fact that the two Pokémon have the same typing has caused hesitancy in a lot of people in this forum in the past.

The two might have the same Typing, but it’s an entirely different ballpark when talking about the two. Mandibuzz is usually a Physically Defensive Mon, able to stay heathy with Roost and Defog Rocks away, with the added benefit of having Overcoat, or even Big Pecks for Galarian Zapdos, which is one of the scariest mons vs Dark (Overcoat is generally the superior option). Galarian Moltres is a somewhat bulky endgame sweeper. Berserk is nice for dissuading priority, lest Galarian Moltres only get stronger.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

(Dark) C->B/A: Galarian Moltres is the best possible answer to Keldeo that Dark currently has. Though not fool-proof, as it can't switch into Specs Secret Sword (the attack doing a minimum of 70.4%), it can threaten the beast out, lest Keldeo give it a free +1 Special Attack as it Agilities. In addition, thanks to Agility and STAB Air Slash, Galarian Moltres offers a very good answer to Fighting, cleaving through most, if not, all Pokemon on it. While 100 Special Attack isn't very impressive, thanks to Fiery Wrath, a +2 Galarian Moltres' Fiery Wrath is only slightly weaker than a +2 Hydreigon's Dark Pulse. Once it chooses which move it wants to use (Agility vs Offense / Nasty Plot vs Defense), it can be insanely difficult to stop, especially given it's bulk. Where Galarian Moltres fails, however, is in versatility and coverage. It can only run the double dance set, and against Rock or Dark (given Tyranitar's presence), it can be outright useless, being forced to play 5v6 until Tyranitar goes down. Klefki does resist both STABs, but Klefki can't actually hurt Galarian Moltres unless it carries the rare Play Rough, meaning it's nothing more than Nasty Plot fodder on Fairy. I'd like to nominate it for B, though A might not be too off a placement for it either.

Going back to this, have a little replay I wanted to share.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1242684053-cq0kbe8u7er5ivhmyr32fnq88xspop5pw (if it's invite only, copy paste the replay into another tab)

With some early game wallbreaking from Tyranitar and screen support from Grimmsnarl, Galarian Moltres was able to absolutely CLEAVE through the Poison Monotype. It's great natural bulk allowed it to live an incredibly crucial roll on the last turn of the battle, which is insane.

 

[adjustments]

thought i'd talk about some stuff since we have all seen plenty of dlc 2 mono at this point

B -> A (Flying)
Thundy-T is not only one of 2 electric immunities available to Flying teams, it is also a great set-up sweeper that helps in matchups such as Water, Psychic and the Flying mirror. It can also be a fill the role of speed control too since it has a wide enough movepool to run scarf. Plus, it outclasses the other mons on B rank for those reasons too. All of this makes it easily worthy of A rank.

A -> S (Flying)
Now with HDB, Dragonite is definitely one of the most threatening set-up sweepers in the metagame right now. Not having to worry about rocks and Multiscale allowing you to live practically any unboosted attack gives you one free Dragon Dance, giving it to potential to sweep at virtually any point in the game. On top of that, it is the only Flying mon with priority, which means it can clean up frail threats like Alolan Raichu or Zydog. Based on all that, I think Dragonite is a STAPLE to all flying teams and should be S rank.

C -> B (Dark)
Weavile gives Dark a really nice edge against types it would otherwise struggle with such as Flying and Dragon. Choice Band Triple Axel does some nice chip to Celesteela, breaks Dragonite's Multiscale after the first hit and has a great speed tier in comparison to a lot of the things it threatens. Should definitely be higher than C.

C -> B/A (Dark)
Zarude is a strong set-up sweeper that Dark really appreciates in its matchups against Water, Ground and Steel. Bulk Up + Jungle Healing is probably the best set for it. It outclasses the other C rank mons due to it having some great bulk and reliable enough recovery + basically status immunity thanks to Jungle Healing, while also being able to absorb Leech Seed from Ferrothorn and Celesteela. It has been popping up on more and more dark teams and has established its role as a set-up sweeper quite nicely in this metagame so far which is why I think it should be B or A.

 

[Kaguya Lys]

(Dark) C->B/A: Galarian Moltres is the best possible answer to Keldeo that Dark currently has. Though not fool-proof, as it can't switch into Specs Secret Sword (the attack doing a minimum of 70.4%), it can threaten the beast out, lest Keldeo give it a free +1 Special Attack as it Agilities. In addition, thanks to Agility and STAB Air Slash, Galarian Moltres offers a very good answer to Fighting, cleaving through most, if not, all Pokemon on it. While 100 Special Attack isn't very impressive, thanks to Fiery Wrath, a +2 Galarian Moltres' Fiery Wrath is only slightly weaker than a +2 Hydreigon's Dark Pulse. Once it chooses which move it wants to use (Agility vs Offense / Nasty Plot vs Defense), it can be insanely difficult to stop, especially given it's bulk. Where Galarian Moltres fails, however, is in versatility and coverage. It can only run the double dance set, and against Rock or Dark (given Tyranitar's presence), it can be outright useless, being forced to play 5v6 until Tyranitar goes down. Klefki does resist both STABs, but Klefki can't actually hurt Galarian Moltres unless it carries the rare Play Rough, meaning it's nothing more than Nasty Plot fodder on Fairy. I'd like to nominate it for B, though A might not be too off a placement for it either.

-Keldeo is currently out of meta since Urshifu offers priority/anti bulk up with Surging Strikes/u-turn pivot and is overall better right now. It has decent bulk but could be picked off by Aqua Jet Urshifu. Can't switch into Urshifu either.
-Both Terrakion and Cobalion can take a +2 Air Slash and Stone Edge or TWave Moltres back to Narnia. Unless you are gambling Hurricanes you should lose that encounter. In the first place, I doubt you will be able to set up this much unless behind Grimmsnarl's screens. However once they see no Mandibuzz, your team will get peppered with Close Combats and I'm not sure you will have much wiggle room there.
-While Tyranitar is probably one of the best checks to it, you will get dominated by Urshifu in the mirror matchup.
-Tapu Bulu runs through you in the Fairy matchup and Mimikyu stops any sweep potential Moltres had.

The two might have the same Typing, but it’s an entirely different ballpark when talking about the two. Mandibuzz is usually a Physically Defensive Mon, able to stay heathy with Roost and Defog Rocks away, with the added benefit of having Overcoat, or even Big Pecks for Galarian Zapdos, which is one of the scariest mons vs Dark (Overcoat is generally the superior option). Galarian Moltres is a somewhat bulky endgame sweeper. Berserk is nice for dissuading priority, lest Galarian Moltres only get stronger.

We understand that both accomplish different roles, however by using 2 dark flying types you open yourself to certain common weaknesses. Which often leads players like StellaAthena mentioned to pick either or and 90% of the time you will have to side with Mandibuzz because of how much it does for Dark.

Going back to this, have a little replay I wanted to share.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1242684053-cq0kbe8u7er5ivhmyr32fnq88xspop5pw (if it's invite only, copy paste the replay into another tab)

With some early game wallbreaking from Tyranitar and screen support from Grimmsnarl, Galarian Moltres was able to absolutely CLEAVE through the Poison Monotype. It's great natural bulk allowed it to live an incredibly crucial roll on the last turn of the battle, which is insane.

The Poison matchup example was won thanks to a low roll 252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar: 212-252 (66 - 78.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. I think a better representation of Moltres' effectiveness would be in tougher matchups like fairy, fighting or even bug which normally wouldn't be too bad for dark but without Mandibuzz, things like Buzzwole or Scizor could sweep much more easily.
I agree with your sentiment. Galarian Moltres has a lot of threat to it, however on Dark it will almost always be a niche pick since Mandibuzz is a staple. I wouldn't be surprised by it going up to B on dark, but this pokemon has slightly more potential on rain Flying teams with Hurricane spam potential. With Zarude having more viability on Dark as a water check and pokemon like Krookodile and Weavile offer decent choice options, I struggle to see how you can fit Moltres especially if it's taking Mandibuzz's slot.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

The Poison matchup example was won thanks to a low roll 252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar: 212-252 (66 - 78.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. I think a better representation of Moltres' effectiveness would be in tougher matchups like fairy, fighting or even bug which normally wouldn't be too bad for dark but without Mandibuzz, things like Buzzwole or Scizor could sweep much more easily.
I agree with your sentiment. Galarian Moltres has a lot of threat to it, however on Dark it will almost always be a niche pick since Mandibuzz is a staple. I wouldn't be surprised by it going up to B on dark, but this pokemon has slightly more potential on rain Flying teams with Hurricane spam potential. With Zarude having more viability on Dark as a water check and pokemon like Krookodile and Weavile offer decent choice options, I struggle to see how you can fit Moltres especially if it's taking Mandibuzz's slot.

This was actually 64 HP Galarian Moltres, but otherwise, I see your point with this. There are some mons on Dark I haven't used yet that do deserve to go up to B (e.g. the ones you listed). After your explanation, maybe B Tier, but certainly not A.

 

[Splash]

Mandibuzz C ->B (Flying) - Feel like this one is a bit overdue, Being Flying's most reliable long-term (Roost) Ghost-resist with the threat of Spectrier looming in the MWP metagame and Ghost being spammed in general alone, Mandibuzz deserve B rank at the least. Mandibuzz also provides the role of a defensive pivot and a reliable Defogger, in addition to being an automatic answer to sweepers with Foul Play, and can Knock items off for its teammates.

 

[Day Healer]

Oks posting some nominations of my fav type:

B -> A (Ground)
If there is a winner in DLC2, thats is Nidoking. Specially with the Landorus-I ban, Nidoking establishes itself like the best special attacker ground monos have right now. Not only, given its great coverage its able to put pressure and/or sweep types with passive mons like steel (Celesteela/Ferrothorn), flying (Celesteela), poison (you couldnt have problems in this matchup, but its always nice to have something to pressure Amoonguss) and even grasses if you have a lucky chance (Ferrothorn/Cradily).
Earth Power/Flamethrower/Ice Beam combo already hit most things you need to hit, the fourth move can be Thunderbolt for Mantine mostly, or Substitute to take advantage of some switch in/ protect / leech seed, etc. All of this makes it easily worthy of A rank.

C -> B (Ground)
Now im not totally sure about this nomination, so is ok if someone disagrees. Maroon already used it in his sandless team, but lately even in sand teams more people have been using Lando-T. The most common set is the scarf one and all in all, is a solid mon: intimidate, good stats, good resistances and U-turn for momentum tool. It def dont deserve be in the same tier like Steelix or Krookodile, so that too.

D -> Untiered
Every gen someone need to push the usage of this mon, even if it is just a bad meme at this point, despite its good ability. In DLC1 there was little point on use this when Rhyperior or banded/sash Diggersby did its exact same job while doing actual damage, in DLC2 its nowhere to be seen.

S -> Untiered (Ground/Flying)
It was banned, so...

 

[Aeran]

Some quick thoughts on poison:

B -> C (Poison)
Unfortunately Crobat has fallen off in my eyes, with the defensive core requiring Weezing, Toxapex, Amoonguss and a Dark/Poison type making it difficult to justify using Crobat especially with Weezing outperforming Crobat as a defogger with the superior Poison/Fairy typing on top of the ground immunity through levitate. Crobat can still be nice to have as a secondary ground immunity that cares little for stealth rock thanks to heavy duty boots, but the opportunity cost of taking a pokemon slot hurts quite a bit when you could be running Nihilego or Nidoking for offensive presence, Salazzle for spreading Toxics, or Slowking Galar to switch in on pokemon like Tapu lele and the Lati twins.

UR -> B (Poison)

Slowking Galar has a few tricks up its sleeve that justifies a B or C ranking in my opinion. Having a secondary switch in to strong special attackers with assault vest + regenerator helps patch up some of the weaknesses that the Toxapex + Amoonguss core has, such as the presence of Choice locked Latios/Latias, Tapu Lele, Dragapult, Raichu-Alola and Kyurem. These are mons that physically defensive Toxapex and Amoonguss do not want to switch into, and Skuntank's reliance on passive recovery through black sludge makes it easier to pressure. Here are a few calcs on Assault Vest:

Calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If you take a psyshock you
can just switch to skuntank or drapion and regain health)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 150-176 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Electric Terrain: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO (Specs is pretty rare on raichu, and not needing to hard switch into Skuntank to take the Psychic keeps Skuntank around for longer if the opponent goes for Rising Voltage).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There is also the added benefit of being able to switch in on heatran without worry and being able to deal heavy damage with an earthquake or mud shot, which is valuable in the steel matchup since Toxapex doesnt want to get trapped and killed by earth power, and Nidoking, Nihilego and Salazzle aren't safe switch ins.

There are downsides for using Slowking though, it does lack offensive presence if you run max Spdef max HP in order to take hits from the special attackers that makes the poison user wake up in a cold sweat, as well as taking up a valuable pokemon slot since you want to pair slowking with one of the poison/dark types to take on psyshocks that you would ordinarily be 2HKOd by, which is what keeps it from being worth a higher rank.

Edit: Grammar

 

[Black Rabbit]

C -> B (Dark)
While Moltres-g does not learn Roost, which prevents it from being retroactive in a battle, it can certainly be a potent late game sweeper. Moltres-g can setup without screens given its above average bulk and decent typing, but it requires screen supports to do so safely. Heavy-Duty Boots helps Moltres-g setup without receiving chip damage from Stealth Rocks. There's also the choice to run Weakness Policy-- as long as you're running hazard control, of course-- given that's it not retroactive in a battle and generally will come out once; Weakness policy enables Moltres-g to sweep even if it's on the verge of a 2HKO by a SE move by setting up agility. Weakness policy also synergizes well with Moltres-g's ability Berserk. It also works well if it's hit by a weak SE move, which allows it to setup further. Moltres-g typing is not only a decent defensive typing, but an excellent offensive typing with STAB moves that have a chance of flinching, which makes it rather loathsome when it flinches. With smart plays, Moltres-g has the potential to sweep match ups that once looked grim for Dark like Fighting and Water. Dark also appreciates another special attacker given the plethora of defensive walls, which makes it a nice pick for Dark. Because of the support it needs to be utilized well but has a good sweeping potential when utilized right, it should be ranked B.

C -> B+/A (Dark)
Grimmsnarl is another teammate that has a decent defensive typing, being immune from Dragon spam. Grimmsnarl's role as a special defensive support tank helps balanced Dark and offensive Dark in setting up. Grimmsnarl's abillity, Prankster, is what makes it an excellent support role. Grimmsnarl can enable its teammates to setup safely and under the protection of substitute and can halt a devastating sweep with screens or cripple with Thunder Wave or Taunt. Grimmsnarl's signature move, Spirit Break, is amazing for its role by having a guranteed special attack drop on hit. This can help reduce the wallbreaking power of special attacks and neutralize threats, or it can help a teammate set up safely. Bulk Up Urshifu, Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Nasty Plot Hydreigon and Moltres-g, and etc. are just examples of teammates that can appreciate screens. Because of the ability Grimmsnarl has to enable its teammates and cripple threats to Dark, it should be ranked A or at least B+.

 

[Dragapult]

I think B is fine for Grimmsnarl. Access to Prankster T-Wave is incredibly helpful considering the only exceptionally fast mon on Dark (Weavile) is not terribly common. With T-wave + the appropriate screen Grimmsnarl provides a decent failsafe to sweepers while allowing for greater flexibility on Ttar, Hydra, Ursh-S, etc.

Hydreigon is a very high bar to meet for inclusion in A, and I think when you consider what Hydreigon represents to the type (tremendous offensive pressure, wallbreaking capability, Ground immunity, solid bulk, and general unpredictability – every type bar Fairy must take it into account when teambuilding) I think it's fairly obvious that Grimmsnarl doesn't quite meet that standard. I also don't think it that much better than Bisharp, if at all.

C -> B (Dark)
Weavile gives Dark a really nice edge against types it would otherwise struggle with such as Flying and Dragon. Choice Band Triple Axel does some nice chip to Celesteela, breaks Dragonite's Multiscale after the first hit and has a great speed tier in comparison to a lot of the things it threatens. Should definitely be higher than C.

C -> B/A (Dark)
Zarude is a strong set-up sweeper that Dark really appreciates in its matchups against Water, Ground and Steel. Bulk Up + Jungle Healing is probably the best set for it. It outclasses the other C rank mons due to it having some great bulk and reliable enough recovery + basically status immunity thanks to Jungle Healing, while also being able to absorb Leech Seed from Ferrothorn and Celesteela. It has been popping up on more and more dark teams and has established its role as a set-up sweeper quite nicely in this metagame so far which is why I think it should be B or A.

Agreed especially in the case of Weavile, which makes the Dragon matchup so much easier due to Ice Shard and a reduced need to play perfectly with Hydra, of which you have only 1. I have been probably the biggest fan of Zarude since its introduction and while I think it good, I don't think it is quite A material on Dark as I think it's more matchup tech. (Albeit really good matchup tech. Not that they do the same thing, but in terms of ranking flex slot options on Dark I feel it is currently Weavile =/> Zarude > Moltres-G based on consistency and relevance of threats addressed in the present meta.

• While Alakazam can play mindgames and have raw power with Life Orb, it is frailer than Azelf.

While Azelf can 2HKO stuff and have raw power with Life Orb, it is frailer than Uxie. This isn't an argument. Azelf is a solid mon. That's why it's ranked. But in order to argue for its inclusion in B you need to make the case that it's generally as good as Celebi/Mew/Latios/Hatt, most of whom are really strong for B rank mons.

That only two Pokemon on Ghost outspeed Azelf in terms of raw Speed stat is somewhat irrelevant, as it gets past neither Aegi nor Mimi and simply becomes Beast Boost bait for Blace/Spectrier once the Ghost player knows you are LO. Pult doesn't care and even with Shadow Ball you lose to Corsola-G without a SpD drop due to how high Azelf's Attack stat is. This is before accounting for Cursed Body potentially turning Azelf into Beast Boost bait. (If Corsola-G is running Haze forget about it.)

It's possible there's a case for Azelf being B, but I don't feel that you've made it. The whole thing just reads as reasons I'd use Alakazam, which is already A. C isn't an insult.

 

[Black Rabbit]

I think B is fine for Grimmsnarl. Access to Prankster T-Wave is incredibly helpful considering the only exceptionally fast mon on Dark (Weavile) is not terribly common. With T-wave + the appropriate screen Grimmsnarl provides a decent failsafe to sweepers while allowing for greater flexibility on Ttar, Hydra, Ursh-S, etc.

Hydreigon is a very high bar to meet for inclusion in A, and I think when you consider what Hydreigon represents to the type (tremendous offensive pressure, wallbreaking capability, Ground immunity, solid bulk, and general unpredictability – every type bar Fairy must take it into account when teambuilding) I think it's fairly obvious that Grimmsnarl doesn't quite meet that standard. I also don't think it that much better than Bisharp, if at all.



Agreed especially in the case of Weavile, which makes the Dragon matchup so much easier due to Ice Shard and a reduced need to play perfectly with Hydra, of which you have only 1. I have been probably the biggest fan of Zarude since its introduction and while I think it good, I don't think it is quite A material on Dark as I think it's more matchup tech. (Albeit really good matchup tech. Not that they do the same thing, but in terms of ranking flex slot options on Dark I feel it is currently Weavile =/> Zarude > Moltres-G based on consistency and relevance of threats addressed in the present meta.



While Azelf can 2HKO stuff and have raw power with Life Orb, it is frailer than Uxie. This isn't an argument. Azelf is a solid mon. That's why it's ranked. But in order to argue for its inclusion in B you need to make the case that it's generally as good as Celebi/Mew/Latios/Hatt, most of whom are really strong for B rank mons.

That only two Pokemon on Ghost outspeed Azelf in terms of raw Speed stat is somewhat irrelevant, as it gets past neither Aegi nor Mimi and simply becomes Beast Boost bait for Blace/Spectrier once the Ghost player knows you are LO. Pult doesn't care and even with Shadow Ball you lose to Corsola-G without a SpD drop due to how high Azelf's Attack stat is. This is before accounting for Cursed Body potentially turning Azelf into Beast Boost bait. (If Corsola-G is running Haze forget about it.)

It's possible there's a case for Azelf being B, but I don't feel that you've made it. The whole thing just reads as reasons I'd use Alakazam, which is already A. C isn't an insult.

Yes, Hydreigon has a good movepool and is very much a good special wallbreaker, which you mention Grimmsnarl does not meet. However, it seems to me you're choosing to base Grimmsnarl's overall ranking based on offensive presence rather than its role, at least what I deduced from your post. That didn't stop Klefki from being a top pick for fairy or Shuckle for rock. A team cannot function properly or to its maximum potential, if it doesn't have the necessary roles to complement its teammates or to counter its weaknesses. Hydreigon is an offensive special wallbreaker with a myriad of moves, as you said. Bisharp is an offensive physical wallbreaker that punishes defog and applies pressure with Knock Off and Iron Head. These two excel in their respective roles and outclass other choices. Grimmsnarl on the other hand is a good specially defensive support tank with no contendors for its role. Not to mention it does a good job and offers a lot for Dark to utilize in all matchups. Your argument is rather one dimensional when basing rankings because then other support/walls/tanks would be considered a lower rank than offensive roles simply because your argument prioritizes offensive pressure than role utility. A lot of types would suffer from this teambuilding philosophy/mantra simply because of how restricting monotype is.

 

[Kaguya Lys]

Yes, Hydreigon has a good movepool and is very much a good special wallbreaker, which you mention Grimmsnarl does not meet. However, it seems to me you're choosing to base Grimmsnarl's overall ranking based on offensive presence rather than its role, at least what I deduced from your post. That didn't stop Klefki from being a top pick for fairy or Shuckle for rock. A team cannot function properly or to its maximum potential, if it doesn't have the necessary roles to complement its teammates or to counter its weaknesses. Hydreigon is an offensive special wallbreaker with a myriad of moves, as you said. Bisharp is an offensive physical wallbreaker that punishes defog and applies pressure with Knock Off and Iron Head. These two excel in their respective roles and outclass other choices. Grimmsnarl on the other hand is a good specially defensive support tank with no contendors for its role. Not to mention it does a good job and offers a lot for Dark to utilize in all matchups. Your argument is rather one dimensional when basing rankings because then other support/walls/tanks would be considered a lower rank than offensive roles simply because your argument prioritizes offensive pressure than role utility. A lot of types would suffer from this teambuilding philosophy/mantra simply because of how restricting monotype is.

I think you missed his point. He did emphasize on Grimmsnarl's support potential and explained clearly what it can do for said sweepers. He agrees with Grimmsnarl being of B and not A rank and as do I.

Hydreigon is a very high bar to meet for inclusion in A, and I think when you consider what Hydreigon represents to the type (tremendous offensive pressure, wallbreaking capability, Ground immunity, solid bulk, and general unpredictability – every type bar Fairy must take it into account when teambuilding) I think it's fairly obvious that Grimmsnarl doesn't quite meet that standard. I also don't think it that much better than Bisharp, if at all.

Hydreigon is the only pokemon in A, hence it will be the benchmark for the every pokemon to meet if they are go for anything above B. He describes what Hydreigon does and how "essential" it is to Dark. His claim is that Grimmsnarl does not meet this standard in terms of contribution to matchups and what it brings in general to Dark (immunities, ability to take hits, variability in sets).

Your comparison of Grimmsnarl to Klefki and Shuckle is similar in sets but drastically different in terms of role.
-Klefki is essential on Fairy due to it's Poison immunity, obvious Prankster utility, great general resistances thx to steel typing and decent bulk which complements the numerous setup sweepers on fairy quite well.
-Shuckle on the other hand is very capable on Rock/Bug since it offers an excellent lead with the sturdy/encore combo. Rock and Bug are relatively bad defensive types so they rely heavily on advantages from hazards to swing the matchup with your devastating sweepers, because realistically if you get outsped your typing has too many weaknesses to cover.

Now, what does Grimmsnarl bring to Dark? The Fighting and Bug resistance is usually covered by Mandibuzz. Screens and T-Wave are the notable boons. As a setup sweeper it is decent but it's poor coverage and lack of recovery probably make it less reliable than a Hydreigon or maybe a Zarude. Dark does not necessarily need screens. It has reliable walls in Mandibuzz and Tyranitar, however probably struggle in the Fighting, Fairy and Water matchup. Grimmsnarl can guarantee those matchups but as pointed out by other users there are other pokemon in B or below such as Bisharp, Krookodile and Zarude who can achieve those results.

The Viability Ranking Council are experienced players who analyse every suggestion before implementing changes in rank, so we should worry more about the conversation of tiering pokemon than people's ranking philosophies.

 

[Dragapult]

Yes, Hydreigon has a good movepool and is very much a good special wallbreaker, which you mention Grimmsnarl does not meet. However, it seems to me you're choosing to base Grimmsnarl's overall ranking based on offensive presence rather than its role, at least what I deduced from your post. That didn't stop Klefki from being a top pick for fairy or Shuckle for rock.

The issue with this is that Grimmsnarl's role is not nearly as important as Klefki's on Fairy or Shuckle on Rock. Take Klefki off of Fairy and you get a bunch of really strong attackers who all die to Poison and take chip damage from their own screen setter's Hail. In short, Klefki is S because it's the best possible enabler for what Fairy's current strength is.

As for Shuckle, well, I'd just refer you to this evergreen gem of a post from the USUM thread:

Shuckle (Rock): A ---> S
In Monotype, S rank Pokemon are defined as Pokemon whose role(s) are so critical to a type's function that they are basically mandatory on teams of that type. It's also a well-documented fact that Rock's only remotely viable playstyle is Sticky Webs offense. Therefore, the rationale behind this nomination seems pretty clear.

So there's that.

Your argument is rather one dimensional when basing rankings because then other support/walls/tanks would be considered a lower rank than offensive roles simply because your argument prioritizes offensive pressure than role utility.

I'm not certain I ever said this. If this were true I'd be arguing against Ferrothorn (S on Grass), Zapdos (A on Electric), or Gastrodon (A on Ground.) But I'm not, as you'd be hard pressed to run Grass without Ferro, and forced into more less team-cohesive options without Zapdos (Thundurus-I) or Gastrodon (Seismitoad). Each type has to be read in context. Seriously, imagine me saying that Toxapex shouldn't be S on Water just because Kingdra booms stuff under Rain. I'd be bullied out of the thread, and rightfully so. But that's not what I'm saying, not even close.

I run Grimmsnarl. Have been doing so since it was released. Grimmsnarl is an optional support mon that thrives on a certain Dark archetype (HO) where its primary use is to set off your offensive threats. At very best it can be A, provided two things are true: a) it is so invaluable to an archetype that said archetype is unviable without it (e.g. Pelipper being A ranked on Rain) and b) that archetype being so dominant that said mon indirectly becomes one of the most pivotal options on your type regardless of how good that mon actually is (Hippowdon). It's the second point where Grimmsnarl falters for me. HO Dark is solid, but the strongest Dark archetype is and has for awhile been balance builds.

Yes Grimmsnarl is a specially defensive support tank. But does Dark need one? T-tar offers hazards, weather control, and is incredibly dangerous if you don't know the set. Mandibuzz is one of the best walls in the tier and is hilariously effective paired with T-Tar. Urshifu is, well, broken and Bisharp is a Fairy killer with the strongest prio in the game.

Grimmsnarl's niche is great, but said niche is not nearly as important to the type's overall functioning as is the other mon in the discussion. Hydreigon is, hands down, one of the most oppressive mons in the tier, and dropped to A from S largely because of the introduction of a special attacker that despite generally being worse than it has the critical upside of singlehandedly winning the type's worst matchup (Galarian Moltres). For Grimmsnarl to be on the same tier as Hydreigon, in my opinion, it needs to offer comparable utility in its role to Hydra as sweeper/all-purpose tactical nuke. I could be wrong here, but I'm not sure it does. One point that would help it out which I'm not sure you mentioned is Fairy typing being really important to setting up Hydreigon plays in the Dragon matchup, which I'd readily concede, but still don't believe is reason enough to push it to A. If Weavile and Zarude were to move up to B, I'd definitely say that Grimmsnarl is on par with them and [slightly below] Bisharp, but Hydreigon at A is, again, a very high bar to reach.

 

[roxie]

D -> C (Ice)

Set(s)

Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- High Horsepower
- Icicle Spear

Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- High Horsepower
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash

Galarian Darmanitan on Ice-teams struggles with Pokemon that tends to use protection moves(King's Shield or Protect) like Celesteela, Aegislash, Heatran, and Ferrothorn, making it hard for it to use Flare Blitz and Superpower because of the immunity core. Glastrier has the creeps 159 Speed which allows it to tie with 4 Spe Celesteela, and creep Aegislash/Ferrothorn/Melmetal and pose a threat with High Horse Power + Ice STAB. Glastrier's ability to pressure and setup on defensive Pokemon like Toxapex and Amoonguss makes Glastrier worth the rise to a C-ranking. It utilizes Alolan Ninetales's Aurora Veil to pull off a Substitute, Swords Dance, and recover steadily overtime with Leftovers. Glastrier's pure Ice typing is the downside but it plays a significant role in improving Steel, Poison, and a few minor matchups it may play a few roles in. Glastrier also has the capability to opt for HP investment allowing it use Substitute on Night Shade / Seismic Toss users like Galarian Corsola or Blissey. The downside in investing in HP is sacrificing Speed (you only creep Ferrothorn probably which is still nice but getting multiple opportunities to setup Substitute seems like the best) or losing Atk where your rolls on Defensive Toxapex is diminished. Glastrier fits perfectly in the C-ranking along with Alolan Sandslash and Froslass(bruh glast is like C+ LOL) and if you are asking, yes, this is the next Kyurem-Black.

Calculations

0 SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glastrier through Light Screen: 53-63 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 290-342 (89.5 - 105.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glastrier through Reflect: 36-43 (10.5 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 72-86 (21.1 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (58 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glastrier through Reflect: 48-57 (14 - 16.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glastrier through Light Screen: 118-141 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Replays
Replay vs Steel - This replay was pretty horrible considering he critted my Glastrier with his Bisharp and became a 50/50 on whether I went into G-Darm and the end or not but it displays how Glastrier is able to utilize Celesteela and Ferrothorn as setup fodder.
Replay vs Steel - I won this game, ran Grudge Alolan Ninetales because fuck Melmetal..what a terrible mon LOL and it shows Glastrier creeping Melmetal and KOing both Skarmory and Melmetal.
Replay vs Poison - Was a little shacky but it showed Glastrier's potential on subbing on Amoongus, Galarian Weezing, and Toxapex along with picking up 1-2 KOs everytime it does so.


C -> B (Dark)
Grimmsnarl has sparked up Hyper Offensive Dark playstyles and I feel like this deserves a rise. Looking at how Klefki is a staple because of its wonderful support with dual screens in both SS and SM allows me to think the same for Grimmsnarl. Screens Grimmsnarl pretty much can support every Dark mon such as Dual Dance Drapion, Bulk Up Urshifu, Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Swords Dance + Scale Shot Krookodile, Nasty Plot + Agility Galarian Moltres, Nasty Plot Hydreigon, and many more to name. Here is a more in-depth post by Black Rabbit reflecting Grimmsnarl's prescence in the current metagame.

C -> B+/A (Dark)
Grimmsnarl is another teammate that has a decent defensive typing, being immune from Dragon spam. Grimmsnarl's role as a special defensive support tank helps balanced Dark and offensive Dark in setting up. Grimmsnarl's abillity, Prankster, is what makes it an excellent support role. Grimmsnarl can enable its teammates to setup safely and under the protection of substitute and can halt a devastating sweep with screens or cripple with Thunder Wave or Taunt. Grimmsnarl's signature move, Spirit Break, is amazing for its role by having a guranteed special attack drop on hit. This can help reduce the wallbreaking power of special attacks and neutralize threats, or it can help a teammate set up safely. Bulk Up Urshifu, Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Nasty Plot Hydreigon and Moltres-g, and etc. are just examples of teammates that can appreciate screens. Because of the ability Grimmsnarl has to enable its teammates and cripple threats to Dark, it should be ranked A or at least B+.

B -> C/D (Poison)
Crobat has never been appealing in my eyes and "fast pivoting this into Nidoking to better xyz matchup" all depends on whether the opponent is perfoming a switch. There is no point in using Crobat at all to better the Fighting-matchup when Galarian Slowking has found more usage to complement the typing's Regenerator and very underperfoming inside of the B-category. Crobat is no where as good as Gengar, Salazzle, or Skuntank. The urge for an Urshifu switch-in via Galarian Weezing is way better especially with Mega Gallade being nonexistent in SS Monotype therefore this should drop.


C -> B (Dark)
I agree with the nomination below.

C -> B (Dark)
Weavile gives Dark a really nice edge against types it would otherwise struggle with such as Flying and Dragon. Choice Band Triple Axel does some nice chip to Celesteela, breaks Dragonite's Multiscale after the first hit and has a great speed tier in comparison to a lot of the things it threatens. Should definitely be higher than C.

D -> B (Poison)
Great post, I second this nomination. MWP is bringing Galarian Slowking week to week as they have discovered it helps with a number of Special threats like Alolan Raichu, Kyurem, and Tapu Lele. Its access to Earthquake and Fire Blast improves Steel by a tad and with this checking Alolan Raichu, Drapion sounds fine to pair with this.

UR -> B (Poison)

Slowking Galar has a few tricks up its sleeve that justifies a B or C ranking in my opinion. Having a secondary switch in to strong special attackers with assault vest + regenerator helps patch up some of the weaknesses that the Toxapex + Amoonguss core has, such as the presence of Choice locked Latios/Latias, Tapu Lele, Dragapult, Raichu-Alola and Kyurem. These are mons that physically defensive Toxapex and Amoonguss do not want to switch into, and Skuntank's reliance on passive recovery through black sludge makes it easier to pressure. Here are a few calcs on Assault Vest:

Calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If you take a psyshock you
can just switch to skuntank or drapion and regain health)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 150-176 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Electric Terrain: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO (Specs is pretty rare on raichu, and not needing to hard switch into Skuntank to take the Psychic keeps Skuntank around for longer if the opponent goes for Rising Voltage).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There is also the added benefit of being able to switch in on heatran without worry and being able to deal heavy damage with an earthquake or mud shot, which is valuable in the steel matchup since Toxapex doesnt want to get trapped and killed by earth power, and Nidoking, Nihilego and Salazzle aren't safe switch ins.

There are downsides for using Slowking though, it does lack offensive presence if you run max Spdef max HP in order to take hits from the special attackers that makes the poison user wake up in a cold sweat, as well as taking up a valuable pokemon slot since you want to pair slowking with one of the poison/dark types to take on psyshocks that you would ordinarily be 2HKOd by, which is what keeps it from being worth a higher rank.

A -> C (Grass)
I am quite determined on this nomination now as Cradily helps with Kyurem more with Rock Blast. Having the utilities like Stealth Rock and Toxic makes Appletun quite a worse SpD mon to compare with Cradily which urges me to nominate this to drop.

 

[Black Rabbit]

The issue with this is that Grimmsnarl's role is not nearly as important as Klefki's on Fairy or Shuckle on Rock. Take Klefki off of Fairy and you get a bunch of really strong attackers who all die to Poison and take chip damage from their own screen setter's Hail. In short, Klefki is S because it's the best possible enabler for what Fairy's current strength is.

As for Shuckle, well, I'd just refer you to this evergreen gem of a post from the USUM thread:



So there's that.



I'm not certain I ever said this. If this were true I'd be arguing against Ferrothorn (S on Grass), Zapdos (A on Electric), or Gastrodon (A on Ground.) But I'm not, as you'd be hard pressed to run Grass without Ferro, and forced into more less team-cohesive options without Zapdos (Thundurus-I) or Gastrodon (Seismitoad). Each type has to be read in context. Seriously, imagine me saying that Toxapex shouldn't be S on Water just because Kingdra booms stuff under Rain. I'd be bullied out of the thread, and rightfully so. But that's not what I'm saying, not even close.

Excellent points! I concur.

I run Grimmsnarl. Have been doing so since it was released. Grimmsnarl is an optional support mon that thrives on a certain Dark archetype (HO) where its primary use is to set off your offensive threats. At very best it can be A, provided two things are true: a) it is so invaluable to an archetype that said archetype is unviable without it (e.g. Pelipper being A ranked on Rain) and b) that archetype being so dominant that said mon indirectly becomes one of the most pivotal options on your type regardless of how good that mon actually is (Hippowdon). It's the second point where Grimmsnarl falters for me. HO Dark is solid, but the strongest Dark archetype is and has for awhile been balance builds.

I'm not sure as to what you're referring to as my second point, but I'm assuming you're talking about being a linchpin to HO Dark's success. I absolutely agree that Dark's strongest playstyle is by far Balanced Dark without a doubt; what I'm trying to say is that Grimmsnarl rather opens up the possibility of this playstyle that wasn't really viable before, while offering something that Balanced Dark can use as well. Basically, it can fit on both playstyles and complement them well.

Yes Grimmsnarl is a specially defensive support tank. But does Dark need one? T-tar offers hazards, weather control, and is incredibly dangerous if you don't know the set. Mandibuzz is one of the best walls in the tier and is hilariously effective paired with T-Tar. Urshifu is, well, broken and Bisharp is a Fairy killer with the strongest prio in the game.

I'd argue that Grimmsnarl can alleviate Tyranitar's role mainly of a utillity tank and can allow Tyranitar to function as an offensive wallbreaker tank, given its natural bulk and sand boost. Grimmsnarl's screen support can allow Tyranitar to quasi function still as a specially defensive tank while being able to deal massive damage in retalliation and potentially opting for Dragon Dance. In a sense, it does a pseudo role compression. Not to mention, that Grimmsnarl's typing is rather better for neutral hits on Dark compared to Tyranitar's typing with the fragile Rock typing. Screens can help Bisharp's longevity against Foul Play Klefki, while setting up against Fairy and secure kills in theory given the speed tier of Fairy being so low.

Grimmsnarl's niche is great, but said niche is not nearly as important to the type's overall functioning as is the other mon in the discussion. Hydreigon is, hands down, one of the most oppressive mons in the tier, and dropped to A from S largely because of the introduction of a special attacker that despite generally being worse than it has the critical upside of singlehandedly winning the type's worst matchup (Galarian Moltres). For Grimmsnarl to be on the same tier as Hydreigon, in my opinion, it needs to offer comparable utility in its role to Hydra as sweeper/all-purpose tactical nuke. I could be wrong here, but I'm not sure it does. One point that would help it out which I'm not sure you mentioned is Fairy typing being really important to setting up Hydreigon plays in the Dragon matchup, which I'd readily concede, but still don't believe is reason enough to push it to A. If Weavile and Zarude were to move up to B, I'd definitely say that Grimmsnarl is on par with them and [slightly below] Bisharp, but Hydreigon at A is, again, a very high bar to reach.

I personally use scarf Hydreigon to secure kills on Dragon, while using Grimmsnarl to scout for scarf, which has guranteed my success in the Dragon matchups. The only reason I didn't bring this up is because I would rather not disclose and impose my playstyle given that sets are tailored to fit needs based on what teammates you have and do. I would like other players to be open to what they would like to build, especially based on what Grimmsnarl can allow.

To address the bigger question: How does Grimmsnarl prove itself to be an essential/maximizes potenital of Dark to be ranked A?
I believe that would just be up to the playerbase to see over time and compare how well Dark performs with and without Grimmsnarl in various matchups. Obviously, I see it as being an essential to Dark's success, but that's for others to decide. Low rankings like you said doesn't undermine a mon's potential in a team. I absolutely adore Moltres-g when it does do what it does, but that doesn't mean it should be ranked A or higher than other the other Dark mons. And I'm glad others like you enjoy Grimmsnarl's presence on Dark!

 

[Rotten]

I'll make a few nominations on particular Pokemon for now;

Rapid-Strike (Fighting) D -> UR

There's no reason to use Urshifu-R on a Fighting team when it restricts the player to use Urshifu-S, which is needed on basically every Fighting team due to its invaluable Psychic immunity and excellent wallbreaking potential with Wicked Blow, which lets it break through Ghost- and the aforementioned Psychic-types. Yeah, Surging Strikes is cool versus Shuckle which can easily Sticky Web against Fighting-type teams that lack entry hazard removal, but Galarian Zapdos has a nice matchup versus Bug / Rock teams and Fighting is good versus Rock in general. Keldeo is another good option, with the ability to become a stallbreaker and decimate walls such as Toxapex that would otherwise overwhelm Fighting teams in general.

B -> A

I'll admit; Porygon2 is a really nice defensive pivot when paired with Blissey that should fit on a majority of teams. It can check a few threats to Normal teams like Dragon Dance Dragapult and Dragonite with Ice Beam, can check Mimikyu, Excadrill, Tapu Bulu, Landorus-T, and support offensive teammates by continuously pivotting out with Teleport. It has Trace: a useful ability that allows Porygon2 to copy opposing ones like Regenerator, Multiscale, and Pressure. Porygon2 has a few flaws, like the fact that it dislikes Knock Off users and is vulnerable to entry hazards because it relies on Eviolite, Bewear can at least deal with all the Knock Offs. Bravairy is also getting a bit less relevant on Normal because Blissey, Bewear, and Heliolisk are good Heavy-Duty Boots users, so this makes Porygon2 more splashable.

(Fighting) D -> UR

Also irrelevant, Bewear's selling point is that it's bulky and can set up on things when Fighting teams already have more Pokemon to consider using in the teambuilder like Cobalion, Urshifu-S, Keldeo, Terrakion, Buzzwole, etc. It's typing isn't that useful either since it only really provides an immunity to Ghost, which Urshifu-S deals with nicely.

(Ghost) C -> D / UR

This just looks like a worse Blacephalon. Infrilator is a cool ability, but Choice Specs Dragapult has the same ability and is a much more useful wallbreaker with a near unresisted move combination.


Noms I agree with:

(Flying) C -> B

Totally agree with this. Ghost-types like Dragapult and Spectrier in particular are going up in usage, so having a good check to them with decent bulk + Roost while also being able to Defog in front of them is appreciated.

(Poison) UR -> B

Assault Vest + Regenerator makes Galarian Slowking a really interesting Pokemon on Poison, allowing it to switch into a myriad of attacks such as Tapu Lele's Psychic (if it lacks Psyshock), Latios' Draco Meteor, Alolan Raichu's Rising Voltage, and etc. while it can force switches and damage through Future Sight. It has a really neat move combination of Poison + Psychic + Fire + Water/Ground (EQ if you want to hit Heatran, but personally I find Scald better) which can hit a good number of targets for Poison teams.

(Ground + Flying) UR

;w;

 

[juoean]

indeedee-f (psychic) ~ im not sure where, and both forms are def pretty niche with tapu leles release, but imo indeedee-f is at least as viable if not more so than its ""male"" counterpart now. against ghost types, the speed tier difference is relevant in 0 matchups, while the improved bulk is useful against threats like spectrier and gengar, and in some situations mimikyu. these offensive ghost types are rly the reason to run an indeedee form so obv doing better against them is significant.
outside of opposing ghost types, there still isnt much where the lower speed tier matters, while indeedee-f provides more of a niche with healing wish, which while psychic has plenty of potential healing wish users it is beneficial to run it on a terrain setter by allowing the healed teammate to have full four terrain turns. particularly since neither lele nor indeedee forms have a pivoting move.
both forms should prob just be in the same rank, i do see f as mostly the better form now but the differences are prob small enough that they can be ranked together. what that rank should be (i assume C or D), idk.

 

[Aeran]

indeedee-f (psychic) ~ im not sure where, and both forms are def pretty niche with tapu leles release, but imo indeedee-f is at least as viable if not more so than its ""male"" counterpart now. against ghost types, the speed tier difference is relevant in 0 matchups, while the improved bulk is useful against threats like spectrier and gengar, and in some situations mimikyu. these offensive ghost types are rly the reason to run an indeedee form so obv doing better against them is significant.
outside of opposing ghost types, there still isnt much where the lower speed tier matters, while indeedee-f provides more of a niche with healing wish, which while psychic has plenty of potential healing wish users it is beneficial to run it on a terrain setter by allowing the healed teammate to have full four terrain turns. particularly since neither lele nor indeedee forms have a pivoting move.
both forms should prob just be in the same rank, i do see f as mostly the better form now but the differences are prob small enough that they can be ranked together. what that rank should be (i assume C or D), idk.

I'm going to have to disagree with this nomination, Indeedee female isn't viable compared to indeedee male as the additional bulk rarely comes into play in a meaningful way. You mentioned being able to take hits from things like Gengar, Mimikyu and Spectrier (which already gets forced out by Indeedee Male), so I have some calcs to compare the two forms because you give up a significant amount of wallbreaking power by switching from indeedee male to female for bulk that doesn't seem to help out much in the long run.

Defensive calcs for indeedee female

Assuming no investment in bulk
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Indeedee-F: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Indeedee-F: 212-251 (75.4 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Indeedee-F: 314-374 (111.7 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Indeedee-F: 279-328 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Assuming max HP max Spdef
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Indeedee-F: 109-129 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Indeedee-F: 204-240 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Indeedee-F: 212-251 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Indeedee-F: 314-374 (91.2 - 108.7%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO
You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot if you run max hp max spdef because you won't be able to outspeed base 85 speed pokemon that run max speed to get healing wish off, so that Indeedee f can do things outside of the ghost matchup.

Defensive calcs for Indeedee Male

Assuming max speed max special attack
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Indeedee: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Indeedee: 303-357 (116 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Indeedee: 358-424 (137.1 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Indeedee: 242-285 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

You can see a bit of a difference between the two forms defensively, but lets look at some of the offensive opportunities you drop when you switch to indeedee female.

Offensive calcs for indeedee female

Assuming Scarf and not specs to help with getting healing wish off in not only the ghost matchup, but in other matchups.
252 SpA Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu in Psychic Terrain: 196-232 (78 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This is more like a 3hko when you factor in disguise)
252 SpA Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult in Psychic Terrain: 259-306 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
52 SpA Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar in Psychic Terrain: 518-612 (198.4 - 234.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I mean obviously, but you still have to be weary about switching in on this thing and getting outsped by scarf gengar anyway)

Ok, not too bad, but no ghost player worth their salt is going to let these frail pokemon take hits when they have options like Jellicent, Aegislash, and Corsola, so lets take a look at those.

252 SpA Indeedee-F Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 100-118 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent in Psychic Terrain: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (assuming max defense jellicent)
252 SpA Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Thats... not looking too great, we can check out Indeedee male to compare the two.

Offensive calcs for Indeedee Male

Assuming Choice Specs over Scarf because Indeedee is outclassed as a scarfer by pokemon like Latias, Tapu lele and Victini.
252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent in Psychic Terrain: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 170-200 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see from the calcs, Indeedee male is able to break through the common switch-ins on ghost that would be able to shrug off anything Indeedee female can throw at them, which really just leaves the utility you get from Indeedee female from healing wish, which Latias completely outclasses due to its superior speed tier. What offensive Indeedee manages to do for the most part in the ghost matchup is to discourage the opposing ghost player from spamming their STAB shadow balls, and punishing them for when they go for it and indeedee male comes in threatening to 2hko something. Indeedee male can also function (albeit not very well) outside of the ghost matchup by being a somewhat decent wallbreaker, where Indeedee female struggles to support its team due to the mediocre bulk and no reliable recovery in exchange of offensive presence that doesn't really seem to help much in the matchups it should be performing its best in.

 

[juoean]

indeedee-f should not be running scarf.
the difference in the calcs you listed is due to the item choice, not that indeedee-m has 10 greater base spa. in fact the only calc impacted at all is the 2hko on aegislash, tho aegislash likely has kings shield if its item is leftovers so that calc is imprecise but the point still stands.
ofc having scarf for a healing wish user is nice but its not mandatory and it doesnt make sense to run an otherwise outclassed item just to improve healing wish. u obv cant just use healing wish whenever like scarf latias can but there are almost always opportunities to use it and having four turns of terrain with your chosen healed teammate obv can be very useful, as well as allowing latios over latias, or freeing a moveslot on scarf jirachi, since u have a different tho mostly worse healing wish user.
maybe running more bulk is possible idk, but standard indeedee-f should be specs with full spa investment and at least enough speed to outrun adamant mimikyu (thus also +speed base 80s).
surviving jolly mimikyu's play rough is significant. and if the last 16 evs are put in defense indeedee-f is guaranteed to survive jolly play rough after rocks / one layer spikes. mimikyu often doesnt have a chance to set sd vs psychic bc of terrain and if indeedee-m is used jolly mimikyu user knows it can use ghost stab freely without worrying about it switching in. the reduced damage from eg gengar matters occasionally since psychic doesnt necessarily run hazard removal so it means an extra turn of switching into a hazard ie an extra turn to take advantage of a choice locked ghost type move, but def of relatively minor importance.
trick + healing wish is also very viable, since once specs is tricked healing wish is likely to be the best use left anyway, while indeedee-m is a poor user of trick since without specs it usually cant do much and the momentum lost after tricking choice specs is counterproductive, esp for an offensive type that doesnt want to switch around too much.

what specs indeedee-f mainly loses vs its male counterpart is one (or two if running trick) coverage moves. however, eg choice locked mystical fire is much less useful with heatran released, either indeedee form is still going to struggle greatly as a wallbreaker vs steel. and in many matchups, particularly against any team with tyranitar which takes nothing from any of its attacks, but also against many teams that have a different dark type, either indeedee form has a lot of trouble wallbreaking effectively at all.
healing wish allows indeedee-f to be used as a wallbreaker in matchups where it can actually be effective, and to be used as a (not very fast) healing wish user in matchups where it otherwise struggles. the option to run trick is very nice too as many switchins such as tyranitar on rock and mandibuzz on flying hate being tricked choice specs (and are slower so cannot prevent healing wish afterward), tho losing a second coverage slot is def noticeable.
the lower spa which comes to a 6-7% ish reduction in damage output compared to "male" counterpart certainly matters, eg means a tiny chance to 2hko the listed defensive aegi through 2 leftovers turns rather than ~50% ish chance in your examples. the speed difference matters rarely in the new meta (excadril is sand rush or scarf anyway, mainly u lose out on speed ties with other base 95s but indeedee-m doesnt typically want to be going for speed ties since it is so frail, not to mention that the speed tier is already covered by lele).

 

[mushamu]

VR Update is finally here, sorry about the wait. This update covers pretty much everything that happened since the start of DLC 2 so it's going to be a long one.

changes

Bug

D -> C

Dark

B -> C

C -> B

C -> B

C -> B

D -> UR

Dragon

A -> B

B -> A

B -> C

C -> D

D -> B

D -> UR

Fairy

A -> B

A -> C

B -> C

B -> C

B -> C

C -> B

D -> B

Fighting

B -> C

C -> B

D -> UR

D -> UR

Fire

C -> UR

Flying

B -> A

B -> A

C -> A

Ghost

A -> S

B -> C

B -> A

C -> UR

Grass

A -> B

B -> C

C -> A

D -> UR

Ground

B -> A

B -> A

D -> UR

Ice

A -> S

D -> B

UR -> D

Poison

A -> B

B -> C

B -> C

B -> C

C -> B

D -> UR

D -> UR

UR -> B

Rock

C -> B

Steel

S -> A

D -> UR

Water

B -> A

B -> C

B -> C

B -> C

reasonings

Bug

Alongside being a Fire immunity, Centiskorch is also the best Steel breaker with its Fire STAB in combination with Scorching Sands. With Steel being prominent right now, Centiskorch rising should reflect on it.

Dark

Dark prefers balance in order to use more Pokemon to tech for more matchups and would rather not dedicate a teamslot to Stealth Rock when Tyranitar is already a great setter.

We felt it was appropiate to rise these three Pokemon as they all do well against good types in the metagame which would otherwise be hard and are good alternating options for an unfilled slot on Dark teams. Weavile does well against Dragon, Ground, and Flying, Drapion breaks Fairy and Electric with Toxic Spikes, and Zarude makes the Water matchup doable while also helping against Ground.

Don't use Obstagoon over better breakers.

Dragon

Latias is so much better than Latios as a Choice Scarf user now to the buffed Healing Wish, so Latios drops.

Hydreigon is great on Dragon teams, being able to serve as a Ghost resist for Spectrier, while beating other types like Ground and Steel with its power.

With Kyurem-B gone, base Kyurem again rises in popularity. Both Choice Specs and SubRoost sets are very dangerous to many types across the board, with Choice Specs being obscenely strong and SubRoost PP stalling a number of foes.

Zygarde-10% has fallen off as it lacks breaking power to consistently break through the types Thousand Arrows would otherwise capitalizes on. It has become a rare sight on Dragon teams because of this.

Noivern is hard to justify using as a Defogger when Latias is so great; although Taunt and U-turn keeps it ranked.

Offensive Regidrago is a meme at best and doesn't cover anything in particular which others can't cover. Screens Regidrago is outclassed by Duraludon by virtue of typing. Regidrago has no niche, so it is being unranked.

Fairy

Tapu Koko is now a more flexible slot on Fairy teams and struggles due to overlap. Pokemon like Alolan Ninetales, Tapu Lele, Clefable, and Tapu Bulu covers the matchups it primarily capitalizes on well in Water and Flying.

Clefable is really nice for role compression. Knock Off + Rocky Helmet is nice for weakening Celesteela and other bulky Pokemon and removing Heavy Duty Boots which makes it splashable as a Stealth Rock setter. Calm Mind can also be dangerous when paired with Klefki's support depending on the set you choose to run.

Alolan Ninetales is a good option on Fairy teams to tech against weather types like Ground, Water, Fire, and others like Flying and Dragon with its combination of Snow Warning and Ice-type STAB in Freeze Dry and Blizzard.

These four Pokemon have fallen out of fashion on Fairy teams and have dropped a rank in reflection of this.

Fighting

Conkeldurr has a hard time fitting onto teams.

Toxicroak is nice for Water, especially now that Tapu Fini is prominent.

Bewear is unneeded on Fighting so it's now unranked.

There's no reason to use this over Urshifu-S and Keldeo.

Fire

This is a worse Arcanine; Arcanine has better coverage and Intimidate alongside priority in ExtreemeSpeed.

Flying

Mantine and Mandibuzz are everywhere on Flying teams now as they both have great defensive typing and bulk to check many key threats across the board. Mandibuzz primarily rose in usage due to check the ever so dangerous Spectrier, but its bulk also lets it stomach hits from Pokemon like Zygarde-10%, Nidoking, and Excadrill, and has a decent set of utility options at its disposal. Mantine is great for checking Water with Urshifu-R and Dracovish, as well as Fire with its typing and Water Absorb.

Thundurus-Therian is really splashable on Flying, breaking apart teams with Nasty Plot or being an incredible pivot with Choice Scarf Volt Switch. It's also an Electric immunity, which provides it utility in the form of being able to come in on Pokemon like Tapu Koko and check SubToxic Zapdos.

Ghost

Spectrier is an extremely centralizing threat as of right now that many types across the board should keep in mind when teambuilding. Types like Poison, Water, Flying, Steel, Dragon, Psychic, Ground, Fairy, and Grass, all have the potential to be swept by a well played Spectrier, and it's by far one of the most dangerous Pokemon on the type.

Galarian Corsola is excellent glue for an offensive type and Ghost teams lose to so much without it. It also sets Stealth Rock and burns things for Spectrier to come in and sweep.

Ghost is an offensive type and Jellicent has fallen off when the type relies on offensive Pokemon to break things like Water and Fire.

Chandelure is a worse Blacephalon, while Dragapult's Infiltrator means it is also useless in that department.

Grass

Cradily can carry Stealth Rock so Ferrothorn can use Spikes and has Toxic for reduced passivity, which puts it above Appletun as a Fire check. Grass teams rely on offensive pressure fine to check the Pokemon Cradily cannot like Victini and Celesteela anyways.

Sun Grass has fallen off a lot, especially when Steel teams now have Heatran to play around Weather Ball spam, so Venusaur falls with it.

Sceptile is too weak to be threatening as a sweeper.

Ground

With Landorus's ban, Nidoking has taken its place as a Special Attacker.

Landorus-Therian is more splashable now that there is no opportunity cost of not being able to use Landorus.

Rhyperior has no niche now that Nidoking exists as a Corviknight check.

Ice

Galarian Darmanitan rises to S now that the bar is lower with Kyurem-B being gone.

It's not unusable for certain Perish trap sets and Choice Specs. It's a nice Water immunity as well for Dracovish.

There is no oppurtunity cost of not being able to use Kyurem-B, so Kyurem resumes its role as a great Special breaker on Ice teams.

Poison

Galarian Slowking has risen in popularity thanks to its good defensive typing in combination with Regenerator and high special bulk. With Assault Vest, it's a solid switchin to many Special Attackers across the board which would otherwise tear through Poison like Kyurem, Alolan Raichu, Tapu Lele, Alakazam, the list goes on and on. It helps turn matchups like Dragon and Electric from borderline undoable to an advantage for Poison teams because of this, and adds onto the defensive core to make it extremely hard to get past.

Nihilego is the flexible slot on Poison teams that is being dropped if you'd like to fit something else like Salazzle, Galarian Slowking, or Gengar. It did not get worse, it just isn't on par with the rest of the A ranked Pokemon which are basically defined slots on Poison due to the type's rigid team structure.

[20:36:25] #Decem: bat is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

There's no reason to use Vileplume when Amoonguss's Regenerator is so much better for longevity. It also lacks a correct way to check Swords Dance Excadrill.

Salazzle is super hard to fit on Poison teams nowadays in place of other options, namely Nidoking.

Skuntank is in an awkward spot on Poison. With its main niches being Defog to remove hazards and Sucker Punch to check Alolan Raichu, it struggles to find a spot on teams with teammates like Galarian Weezing and Galarian Slowking. Galarian Weezing Defogs, and Galarian Slowking serves as a very nice check to Alolan Raichu.

Drapion takes the place of Skuntank as a Psychic immunity now that it's less mandatory. It's better otherwise with moves like Toxic Spikes and Knock Off.

Assault Vest Galarian Slowking being great means Assault Vest Galarian Slowbro drops.

Rock

Ground is good right now so the Ground cteam on Rock rises.

Steel

Celesteela faces more competition with Skarmory as seen in MWP recently, as Skarmory is a much consistent answer to the Urshifu forms with its reliable recovery in Roost while being able to set hazards. Celesteela is still good, but dropping to A reflects this slight drop off in viablity.

There's no reason to use Metagross over other offensive options on Steel, namely Jirachi which is a great Special breaker and takes advantage of Psychic STAB much better.

Water

Tapu Fini has a variety of good utility assets that make it a great option on Water teams. A Fairy typing along with Fairy STAB is really nice for checking Dragon teams, while providing a sturdy Dark resist for Urshifu. Misty Surge is also useful for protecting the Water team from being burnt by Hex Spectrier. Between Calm Mind + Taunt, Choice Scarf, and Defog sets, Tapu Fini is an incredibly splashable Pokemon on Water teams which rising to A reflects.

Seismitoad frankly sucks; Swampert is better in it even on Rain due to Flip Turn generating momentum for more consistent threats like Urshifu-R, Kingdra, and Barraskewda to break. Swampert also gets Roar, preventing Pokemon like Dragon Dance Dragapult, Dragonite, and Substitute Kyurem from doing too much damage to Rain teams by forcing them out.

Cloyster is hard to use as a Dragon answer now that Dragonite gets ExtreemeSpeed to pick it off. It can still run Shell Smash to a less consistent degree and certain Choice Scarf lure sets, but it took a huge hit in viability once DLC 2 dropped. Running something like Tapu Fini or Kingdra is more ideal to get an upper hand against Dragon teams now.

Volcanion is hard to fit, so it drops.

No discussion points this time, although MWP season is a good time to look out for any potential changes due to the acceleration of metagame development.

 

[Isza]

Skamory B>A

Celesteela has always been the surperior option for a ground immunity on mono steel dating back to SM. Skarmory however,
is making a comeback this year as shown in the latest MWP tournament.
Skarmory got access to Body Press this generation, making it being able to punish threats to mono steel such as Crawdaunt, Hydreigon, Bisharp and both Urishifu forms just to name a few. With Rocky Helmet it wears down most threats while being able to set spikes/toxic. Being able to check Water urishifu is also huge, seeing as celesteela can't reliably do so due to unseen fists. Having Skarmory as your hazard setter also means you can free up a move on ferrothorn ranging from twave, protect, ect.Having access to whirlwind in addition to spikes is also a huge plus, being able to phase out mons with hazards up can be very annoying for a ton of types.
Replays below all showcase skarmory in an official tournament setting.

Skarmory doing Skarm things

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1246727239
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1246720825
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1247460865
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1249243261
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1255265865
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8monotype-535067
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1249232861

 

[mushamu]

Following Isza's post I would like to bring up two Pokemon on Steel alongside Skarmory for discussion. Celesteela and Melmetal are two Pokemon which I think would be nice to have more input on their current rankings so far.

If you have been following MWP, you've noticed a lot of Steel teams have been dropping Celesteela for Skarmory because of both Urshifu forms being prominent in the Monotype metagame at the moment and Skarmory's ability to punish them better with Rocky Helmet chip and reliable recovery. Celesteela's special bulk comes in handy against types like Ground and against certain threats like Hydreigon despite not having reliable recovery. This begs the question of how the Flying type Pokemon on Steel should be ranked; with Skarmory above Celesteela, both on the same rank, or even Skarmory to S and Celesteela to B?

Melmetal is another Pokemon on Steel which I personally feel does not fit compared to the other A ranked Pokemon. It is not necessarily bad, but considerably harder to fit when you look at the other Pokemon it is ranked with. Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Celesteela/Skarmory are pretty much givens when building a Steel team; with Ferrothorn being needed for Spikes and its defensive typing against Water and Ground, Excadrill being on every team due to its Electric immunity and Rapid Spin, and Skarmory/Celesteela providing a Ground immunity and Fighting neutrality which helps cement the defensive core even further. I personally don't think Melmetal, despite being a good Pokemon and a great wallbreaker, fits with these Pokemon, and is rather a more flexible slot that is interchangeable with Pokemon like Bisharp and Jirachi depending on what you want to cover.

 

[Hydrazard]

Zapdos-Galar B->A


I recently began using mono-flying, and I wasn't sure why a user recommended me zapdos-galar over any of the other picks, but after using it, I do not see how it doesn't at least deserve a rank equal to thunderus-T,tornadus-t and dragonite. If A tier is based on pokemon that literally solo games, then Zapdos should be there. It single handedly denies mono-dark, does very well against rock,ice, steel, ghost (if using throat chop, and scarfed lando-t with knock off can deal with pult+spectrier, the 2 problems if running banded. If scarfed, zapdos can outpace them with jolly throat chop) and at worst, Zapdos tends to trade even in it's worst match-ups, usually breaking down a wall or removing a key target for another of the powerhouses on mono-flying to start dominating. I'm still not the best at singles, but the fact that Zapdos is so reliable and single handedly can win games makes it feel more like an A tier pick, especially considering it is more on the level of the 3 mentioned earlier, offers unique advantages (including a necesary ice check that all flying teams need) and is so good at either ending games after its team weakend the opponents, or breaking holes to enable its powerful allies like ddance dragonite, nasty plot thunderus-t or lando-t to spam 1 move once the main switch in has been weakened severly