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No reqs, but I've found that Machoke can be revenge killed really easily after a knock off. I can see the arguments for banning it, but I personally feel the metagame is more fun with him in it. Once you get the Knock off, just about every Pokemon can KO him reliably. Corsola, Hattrem, Haunter, Wartortle, etcetera. Corsola can particularly harass Machoke with Whirlpool, Night Shade, Strength Sap etc.
No reqs, but I've found that Machoke can be revenge killed really easily after a knock off. I can see the arguments for banning it, but I personally feel the metagame is more fun with him in it. Once you get the Knock off, just about every Pokemon can KO him reliably. Corsola, Hattrem, Haunter, Wartortle, etcetera
Hello!,
You're absolutely right, tank and defensive Machoke sets are much weaker once their Eviolite is knocked off, but I thought we could look at your argument(s) some more. I won't be talking about other factors but the ones that you've brought up, if you feel like my arguments are lacking or you disagree, please feel free to quote me on this!
Here is a list off all the viable Knock Off users we count in the NFE Metagame
Upon your first look at them would tell you that they should find no worry using Knock Off against Machoke, but let's take a look at the most popular Machoke set now.
@ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Heavy Slam / Earthquake
- Bullet Punch / Ice Punch
This is your everyday Eviolite Machoke which I will be focusing on here because of your post. As you can see this Machoke has a way of hitting every Knock Off users that I have listed previously. Close Combat hits Ferroseed, Pikachu, Linoone-Galar and opposing Machoke. Heavy Slam can KO Clefairy after Knock Off while Earthquake hits Mareanie. Ice Punch on the other hand hits Dartrix.
Here are some calcs for you to see for yourself;
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 258-306 (88.3 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pikachu: 364-430 (172.5 - 203.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Linoone-Galar: 1072-1264 (360.9 - 425.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 160-190 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 208 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 109-129 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 58.7% chance to 3HKO (Phys Def Machoke)
252+ Atk Machoke Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 284-336 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefairy: 424-500 (123.2 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after Knock)
252+ Atk Machoke Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mareanie: 196-232 (64.6 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mareanie: 294-348 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (after Knock)
252+ Atk Machoke Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dartrix: 176-208 (49 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dartrix: 56-67 (15.5 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dartrix: 260-308 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see the only Pokemon who can reliably switch in on Machoke, and use Knock Off on it is Physically Defensive Machoke. The rest of the calcs conclude that there is a certain amount of pressure when deciding whether or not you want to use Knock Off on Machoke 1v1. Therefore I think you would agree that your best bet would be to force Machoke in and using Knock Off on it and then switch out or use another move, but Machoke doesn't actually switch into most of these threats. The only ones it can switch in on are Ferro, Linoone and sometimes opposing Machoke for lack of better counter play.
In your argument you say that Machoke is easily dealt with after a Knock, which forces you to run at least one of these three Pokemons on every team, one of these three being Machoke itself. Usually what a suspect vote is defined by is through the tiering policy which is a tool made to 'balance' out a metagame and make it healthier. These are policies that outline where a Pokemon can be judged upon four categories being: skill, uncompetitive, broken, unhealthy. Now if I connect the point I have made earlier, you always need to run one of the three Pokemons then Machoke would fall under the 'unhealthy' category. You can also look at 85percent's post where he talks about Machoke's relationship with the tiering policy through this suspect here.
This is just a simple response to your point directly but there are many other factors that count in the Machoke debate. For one Eviolite Machoke whilst being the most common on ladder is only one of Machoke's sets and many on this thread have touched upon the Flame Orb set which is found to be much more controversial. I do recommend that you read other post on this thread especially what users like uhuhuhu7's have said here when replying to anti-ban arguments. I hope you will find time to get reqs and participate further in this suspect!
Thanks, I'm doing what I can and trying to have fun. I don't believe you've addressed Machoke vs Corsola. As I've said, Corsola seems to defeat Machoke pretty reliably against defensive sets. I'm pretty sure offensive sets do beat it though. But in turn, the offensive sets can be beaten by other mons, like Haunter, Pikachu, Raboot, Shellos, Vullaby can even run Brave Bird if you really want it to, but I do admit, that's a bit gimmicky.
finally got around to actually finishing this lol, gonna echo stresh on the issues with ladder, and simply add that it honestly got a lot worse after the initial 2 days because it's a ton less active once the 1st day or so of people getting reqs is done, used this for anybody who cares at this point lmao https://pokepast.es/a54656001ddd7b5d
Even though I'm beating a dead Mudbray, I still think it's important that I share my thoughts on Machoke.
-Just clicks Knock Off against anything that "checks" it and suddenly they lose a chunk of their bulk and defensive utility.
-Tying into the previous point, Gorsola and Gloom, two of the best answers to Machoke on paper, still lose depending on the set.
-Overall just broken and needs to go.
If you couldn't already tell, I'll be voting to ban Machoke.
(P.S. Thanks to 85percent and tack for giving me teams)
I am voting unban Machoke, for reasons OranBerryBlissey10 have already went through in their previous post here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nfe-metagame-discussion.3656332/page-4#post-8483104. I've seen many examples of teams without Machoke using their superior playing skills to defeat teams with Machoke as well. Jett got some dominating wins against me a couple times with some unpredictable teams! This goes against the notion that Machoke is Broken (a standard team without them would be at a severe disadvantage that I standard team with one is). I believe Machoke does have counterplay balancing him out and this counterplay should be embraced more, rather than banning him. To be clear, I, along with OranBliss, believe that Machoke has a good amount of checks balancing him, as well as anticipating any new checks or even counter, that will come with SwSh DLC. Banning things too much could also cause a snowball effect. Free bara dady ^0^ good night
Shout outs to Vooper and Marjane for the sample team!
Crystal isn't the only one who can get reqs using exclusively his webs team. I'd like to say ggs ez, but the 24 other alts prove it wasn't :)
I would like to start off by saying that while there are valid arguments presented by the pro-ban faction, those arguments are imo not enough to ban Machoke. Despite some of them seeming flawed to me, I think it is important to mention that I take no issue with people voting ban after they have thought it over. Regardless, here is my reasoning for dnb: (boiled down, since I don't have days to write this)
First off, it should be said that the scary set here is Flame Orb. The other Machokes both check things like Klang and Piloswine and get walled by Gloom, Corsola, Dartrix, Mudbray (and the Fairies if Resttalk). A frequently brought up point is that Forb Machoke has no hard counters (unless no Facade, in which case Koffing walls it) like Bronzor for Pilo or Chinchou, Wooper and Palpitoad for Klang. This is, however, not as big a problem as some people make it out to be. These are some pro ban arguments I have seen a lot:
'Its checks can't come in more than once.': A lot of checks like Dartrix, Gloom or Corsola can heal on the switch allowing them to be used again. Even if your opponent has a Hattrem, the switch into Strength Sap is predictable and can be exploited.
'Its bulk allows it to survive revengekillers': While its bulk isn't horrendous and looks good on paper, it's not enough in practice. It has no eviolite, takes chip damage from the burn every turn, and CC drops its defenses. Btw that doesn't always mean a ko, since baiting out a CC is definitely possible.
'Its not even that slow for this meta': In NFE, there is basically a fast group (Torracat and above), then a huge gap with little viable mons and then the slow group. Machoke is relatively high up in the 'slow' group, but a simple scroll through the teambuilder can show you that a lot of viable 'slow' mons are still faster than Machoke. (granted, they don't always run max speed, but neither does Machoke) When I personally used max hp max atk Forb Machoke on my balance team on my earlier nfema alts, it was without a doubt the worst performing member. It wasn't until I changed it to Jolly max speed that it worked on par with the rest of the team.
'You have to sack something every time Machoke comes in if your check(s) aren't at full health': With proper predictions you can sometimes avoid this, and even if this is absolutely inevitable, this is not a situation unique to Machoke. It's relatively common to be stuck in a situation where you have to sack a mon. Other mons like Pikachu, Piloswine and setup sweepers can force you to do the same.
Another returning argument is that Machoke promotes "unhealthy predictions". Predictions are definitely important when dealing with Machoke, but I fail to see how these are unhealthy. The more skilled player has a better chance of getting the right prediction. Imagine Linoone vs Machoke (as a common but not all-representing example). The Machoke usally clicks Knock on the 'obvious' switchin, but lets say Linoone stays in and D-edge's. Machoke is now a 2hko. (this is eviolite btw, Forb is 2hko and would have to switch out) Now the costs are higher and the Machoke player is more inclined to click CC. But now the Linoone clicks P-shot and goes into Gloom to catch the CC. Machoke now has -1 in everything but speed, unable to touch Gloom. This is ofc a pretty optimistic situation, but when I personally used Machoke, I found myself getting screwed over with these kinds of predictions more than my opponent.
What I also noticed a lot when discussing Machoke checks is: "It clicks Knock on the switch and kills it next turn". For this to actually happen, the mon in question needs to be slower than Machoke, it needs to be 2hko'd (granted, this criterium is very easy to fulfill), and it also actually needs to switch in. Or it could, but the Machoke player under- or overpredicts and clicks CC or even something else. A lot of people will say that these "50-50's" are unhealthy, and while I already discussed the unhealthy part, these predictions, although sometimes having too much at stake, are poorly named. the chances of Machoke clicking Knock or CC (or even something else) depends on the players and the situation.
Something that was heavily debated in chat was the upcoming DLC. There were a lot of vastly different opinions flying about, all with reasons backing them up. A post I made a while back mentioned the DLC and how we shouldn't ban or suspect stuff right before it drops. Three days later, the suspect was announced lol. Some people stated that voting for a meta that doesn't exist yet is a bad idea, which makes sense. Then again, some people stated that it's ridiculous to vote for a meta that's dead in two days, while the meta the potential ban actually affects is a meta which Machoke has never set foot in and this also makes sense.
If you're feeling Gloomy right now, read these on-point remarks by one of the best and rudest nfe players:
ArcticBreezeX: but if u vote ban or no ban bc of the current meta
ArcticBreezeX: then ur voting for the next meta
ArcticBreezeX: so ur opinion is also bad
ArcticBreezeX: either way everyones opinions suck
ArcticBreezeX: just push it back
%Ho3nConfirm3d: so like a day of voting, maybe one day of implementation on PS, then DLC
ArcticBreezeX: and quickban mons before they can even be added
%Ho3nConfirm3d: hindsight 20/20, learning experience if anything
ArcticBreezeX: wow ho3n so inspirational
ArcticBreezeX: really help
ArcticBreezeX: i think the best idea is to cancel the pokemon company for removing pokemon
These made me laugh a lot more than they should have btw.
Also, if you're not convinced yet, this is by far the best argument to not ban Machoke
broken phobias:i leik big muscles pokeman because it is purple
I kid, of course :)
I would also have liked to reply to a lot of the things said in the thread since some of them kinda triggered me (seriously, asking for a Raboot ban?) and added more details to this post but it's 2am and I'm tired. Massive shoutouts to everyone trying to save Machoke or at least considering it, as well as Crystal (even though he's kind of on the dark side of the force) and Thimo for making that great Lampent team.
Got reqs 10 days ago. Forgot to post . Lost one game and forfeit remaining cause I was not getting a perfect score anyways .
I am leaning towards 'ban', we might have a meta where it is not broken in the near future but at this point, I think it is overwhelming.
. Lost one game and forfeit remaining cause I was not getting a perfect score anyways 
.
