Resource SS NU Viability Ranking Thread [See post #38]

[Mariannabelle]

I don't post much but I'd like to nominate

Ninjask to return from UR -> C+, or even B-.


Ninjask's unparalleled speed tier and usable attack, along with STAB Acrobatics and U-turn allow Ninjask to threaten plenty of offensive threats, landing easy OHKOs on many offensive mons such as Indeedee, Abomasnow (Ice Shard hurts, but it's not KO'ing you from full), Toxicroak, and others. It can do this immediately, without needing a turn to set up like Butterfree.

What really makes Ninjask shine, however, is the sheer difficulty that offensively checking the bugger presents. Many would-be checks like Silvally find themselves getting worn down very quickly by U-turn and other damage while Ninjask safely retreats behind its choice of teammate. Protect also allows Ninjask to scout the offensive options of common scarfers like Rotoms and Togedemaru. I can't count the number of times that scarf Togedemaru has come in to check Ninjask only to have its move scouted, followed by a U-turn into [insert counter].

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1117803622 (example of Ninjask getting "checked" by scarf Togedemaru, turn 19.)

There certainly are bulkier checks out there that Ninjask struggles to break past without taking big damage, such as Stunfisk-G, Piloswine, Garbodor, and Sandaconda, but all of them find themselves eating a U-turn to the face as Ninjask replaces itself with [insert wallbreaker that these guys invite in]. They are all prone to being worn down. Teams that expect only one of these to deter Ninjask find themselves in for a rude awakening as they are inevitably start cracking as the battle progresses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1117792925 (example of Ninjask deterrent Garbodor being worn down; with it gone, nothing can prevent Ninjask from absolutely oppressing what's left.)

Lastly- everyone already knows that Ninjask is frail and prone to being crippled by Stealth Rock, as it prefers to stick to a hit-and-run strategy. However, it is also an incredible sweeper that requires constant vigilance, as one Swords Dance reduces its pool of checks to a puddle. Ninjask finds opportunities to set up on scouted U-Turns, as well as against choiced Knock Off users (despite the low bulk, it’s still enough to take low-powered Knock Off, since you usually run no item), as well as passive mons like clefairy and eldegoss.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1113525919 (someone was winning until they let Ninjask get in on something passive; this is a sweep that no other Pokemon could have pulled off, considering the opp had scarf Unfezant to check faster threats- Ninjask excluded)

In summary- Losing Drought reduced the number of matchups that Ninjask handled with zero effort, but it is by no means unusable or unviable. Ninjask grabs momentum like a baby grabs Cheerios, and taking it back is a frustrating (sometimes impossible) experience. Ninjask requires team support, but then again, most things do, and the rewards are often tremendous.

EDIT: If you’re not convinced, I tied for top of ladder with nothing but ninjask teams.

 

[pattek]

Nominating Noctowl from UR -> C or C+

set

Noctowl @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Hyper Voice
- Air Slash

During the most recent NU Research Week, I chose to ladder with Noctowl and see how good it could be with it's choice specs set. This mon was very fun to use because of its breaking ability. I was surprised it wasn't being used more, so here I am nominating it. Thanks to its hurricanes, Noctowl is able to really muscle through fatter teams. It can 2HKO a lot of mons with its stabs as well as its coverage.

Calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togedemaru: 226-268 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stunfisk-Galar: 208-246 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery (85.9% after rocks)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alcremie: 190-225 (56.8 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 195-229 (52 - 61%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cofagrigus: 156-184 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Guaranteed 2hko after rocks)

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1118063950 (Noctowl spamming hurricane until opponent forfeits lol)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1118065131 (Noctowl was able to revenge kill drampa, alcremie, and piloswine)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1118168719 (Noctowl kills another drampa and pressures rapidash, definitely could've done more if I had clicked hurricanes + avoided sacking it to rapidash)

Overall fun pick that can put in work and appreciates rocks staying off the field with spinners/magic bouncers. It works in the meta and can really pack a punch for something that doesn't have hands.

 

[Rabia]

vr update poggaroo

New:
-> A: In a tier with very few Fire-types, Rapidash has a clear niche, mostly having usurped Silvally-Fire's spot as the top offensive Fire-type thanks to its superior Speed, comparable coverage, and ability to run an item.
-> B+: Flapple is a scary yet inconsistent wallbreaker. Hustle lets it do immense damage at the cost of missing 80% of the time (yes, 80%), meaning other wallbreakers like Gourgeist-S and Drampa are generally preferred picks. The potential for crazy wallbreaking + relative unexplored Ripen DD sets leave room for future rising, though.
-> B: Although it hasn't gotten too much usage, Alolan Dugtrio is fast and threatens a wide variety of prominent Pokemon, including Rapidash, Clefairy, and Togedemaru. Great fit on certain offense builds and has a very annoying SubToxic set that pressures checks like Rotom-S and Wishiwashi fairly well.
-> B-: Mostly used as a check to Swords Dance Silvally formes and as a means to prevent Indeedee-F from spamming Psychic. Nasty Plot sets may have some merit, but overall Alolan Persian hasn't had a huge impact so far.

Rises:
B -> A: Wishiwashi has solidified its place in the meta as an incredibly great defensive Water-type in large part because of a lack of competition. It can switch into common Stealth Rock setters with ease and maintains great offensive pressure between its coverage and high attacking stats. Despite its ability being somewhat annoying, Protect mostly mitigates this and allows Wishiwashi to dominate games for a prolonged period.
:gourgeist-small: B+ -> A-: Gourgeist-S does a lot for teams; it's a strong wallbreaker courtesy of Power Whip, it provides defensive utility thanks to its reasonable bulk and nice typing, and it can revenge kill with Shadow Sneak. As the meta has progressed, we've also seen more set experimentation, with Choice Scarf and SubSeed sets getting some use too to provide different forms of utility.
B+ -> A: Silvally-Dragon has easily become a top three Silvally forme in recent times. It's really hard to wall the combination of Dragon-type Multi-Attack + Iron Head with anything other than a dedicated physical wall, and its defensive utility gives it a place on a wide variety of teams looking for a Water- and Fire-type check.
B -> B+: As Nasty Plot sets have continued to demonstrate great potential thanks to Skuntank's coverage, we felt a small raise was warranted. Even Memento is pretty cool.
B- -> B: Spiker that checks Fire-types and Silvally-Water? ganhamos
C+ -> B-: Broken demon butterfly returns in a different form. There's not much to say other than we originally had it ranked too low and perhaps still do, but Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance will never cease to be potent.
UR -> C: I haven't used this at all, but I can only assume it's good at chipping checks with U-turn and eventually clicking Acrobatics a lot late-game. Hattrem being a very good choice probably helps solidify this niche.
UR -> C+: Basculin is fast and has really nice coverage that lets it bypass most Water-type checks fairly well. It's held back by mediocre defenses, but we felt the insane offensive potential it offers makes up for that enough.
UR -> C: see: singular hail team being spammed in NUPL. Glaceon is also stronger than Abomasnow and a bit faster, so that also helps give it a niche.
UR -> C: Defensive sets check some of the prominent breakers, namely Silvally-Dragon, Toxicroak, and Flapple. I mostly have experience with Swords Dance variants admittedly, although those have nice worth in breaking down Ground-types for late-game cleaners like Silvally-Dark.

Drops:
A+ -> A: Teleport sets aren't actually that great because unlike Clefable in OU, Clefairy doesn't have the luxury of weaving in Leftovers recovery when it uses Protect. Additionally, the drop of Rapidash and rise of some other options like Skuntank has made Clefairy a bit less reliable overall, justifying a small drop.
A+ -> A: Indeedee-F is honestly a bit underwhelming compared to a few weeks ago and doesn't appreciate the increase in options faster than its Choice Specs set, such as Silvally-Dragon, Rapidash, and Choice Scarf Toxicroak. It's still really scary and mandates multiple defensive answers, but it's more manageable than originally thought.
A+ -> A-: Garbodor is simply much worse off in the current meta. Cofagrigus is pretty much the defacto Fighting-type check on most of the builds you'd fine Garbodor on nowadays, it's very easy to remove Garbodor's hazards without much fear, and there are a lot of Pokemon such as Sandaconda, Piloswine, and Indeedee-F that give Garbodor a massive headache. Hell, even Qwilfish is trending sort of upwards at the moment, which doesn't bode well for Garbodor's future prospects.
A -> A-: Cofagrigus is everywhere, Rotom-S is a great Defogger that is also everywhere, and Toxicroak is just the better Fighting-type. Sawk simply struggles to do what it wants to do most: spam Close Combat.
B -> B-: Not sure why this ever rose to begin with, and honestly I'm not sure what it's supposed to do in general. Seems like shit though given how most of the common Choice Scarf users beat it!
B- -> C: Drampa does everything Appletun wants to but better.
B- -> C+: I couldn't tell you the last time I saw Drifblim do anything productive in a game, but it's awfully passive and exploitable with options like Rotom-F, Nasty Plot Skuntank, and Drampa. Rotom-S is arguably the closest thing I could call to competition it has and is better because it doesn't fear Knock Off nearly as much.

 

[Rabia]

here's a follow-up post too with some nominations/discussion points; rises will come in the first section and drops in the second:

-> A-: I was originally pretty low on Liepard, but after having used it a bit I think it's criminally underrated. Sure, there's competition with Silvally-Dark, but Liepard being naturally faster and having STAB Knock Off help set it apart. It also has a really flexible last moveslot: Copycat, Play Rough, and Psycho Cut are all nice options that either let Liepard revenge kill random shit it shouldn't be able to or simply prevent certain Pokemon from being as effective of checks.
-> B+: Alcremie was pretty underwhelming when it first dropped, but it's performed fairly recently as a wallbreaker/offensive Calm Mind user throughout NUPL. It can soft check some of the annoying Pokemon in the tier like Cofagrigus and Drampa by virtue of its typing and bulk, while its coverage lets it bother a lot of its switch-ins.
-> B- or B: Hattrem has for awhile now been a consistent force on some of the offensive builds running around. For several generations now, Magic Bounce has been known broken, and Hattrem is great at preventing passive Stealth Rock setters like Sandaconda and Galarian Stunfisk from getting the pebbles up. It also is a generally good support Pokemon with options like Nuzzle and Healing Wish, further solidifying its place.
-> C+: Haven't used this one as much, but it checks Sandaconda, non-Iron Head Silvally-Dark, and Silvally-Water, so it must be good. It also has both Spore and Strength Sap, so it must be broken.

-> B+: I have been low on Lanturn the entire generation; I think it generally does nothing in games and is outclassed in the roles it wants to fill. It's a Water-type that doesn't really beat Ground-types, and with Wishiwashi surging as a defensive Water-type and most of the common wallbreakers just fucking on it, I think Lanturn is in a bad spot.
-> B: Silvally-Fire is still good, but Rapidash dropping has really robbed it of the spotlight. It's less self sufficient, lacks recovery, and doesn't really possess much over Rapidash other than bulk and a set that lures Quagsire and isn't deadweight if it mispredicts.
-> C+: Got hype a month ago, now Wishiwashi dominates the tier, and other Pokemon like Gourgeist-S and Eldegoss are still commonplace. Not really worth it as a wallbreaker.

this last one is going to be me suggesting C rank Pokemon that should be nuked entirely, although I won't be elaborating because I think they're all so bad it isn't worth my time:

 

[SBPC]

Been playing NU in Pspl/on ladder some and thought I'd post a couple noms

Abomasnow: A -> A+
This thing gets a chance to kill something almost everytime it switches in with specs, it's STABs hit a majority of the tier for free and scarf isnt too shabby a set either being able to get the jump on some mons or grab a nasty RK vs stuff like Silvallies and Fantom. It also gets SW + Veil which can be pretty damn useful if a team builds around it having that.

Flareon: B- -> C+/C
This mon is god awful I've never had any remote success in attempting to use it, anything it wants to attempt checking bar Abomasnow can just run it over after a hit or two, its too slow to be effective for offensive sets (especially when its competition is the very very good rapidash) and genuinely struggles with almost every MU in the entire tier. Its only niche is really up against incredibly slow teams where it can get a hit or two off then immediately fold to a midspeed opponent that can hit it back.

Responding to Rabia's Discussion points:
Liepard to A-: Agree, not much to say here
Alcremie to B+: Agree, Alcremie can be a pretty consistent CM mon that makes for a decent wincon as well as the things mentioned in Rabia's post
Hattrem to B: to B+ > B, and to add onto Rabia's post, coverage like Giga Drain and Mystical Fire allow it to go one on one with the more passive rockers of the tier and push out finishing blows against the chipped hazard setters. This thing is just really solid via magic bounce and has the movepool to completely deny every hazard setter over long games when well played
Shiinotic to C+: idk man it has strength sap and spore it must be broken, lol agree
Lanturn to B+: I love the lamp fish but its in a bad spot rn, could probably drop lower than B+
Silv Fire, Vish, and the Nukes I agree with, don't have any commentary on them.

 

[Mariannabelle]

Hi, it's me again. I'd like to nominate the one and only

Arctovish for a rise.

Simply put, Arctovish is good at what it does, and what it does is turn slower teams into a series of stains on the wall, and a lot of the so-called reliable checks simply aren't, and that's because Arctovish is actually a versatile Pokemon with options to dispatch whatever it finds most problematic.

I keep seeing all this stuff about how Wishiwashi walls ya boi Arctovish and that simply isn't true for mixed Arctovish sets. For example, with my own preferred NeverMeltIce set (Lonely nature):
252+ Atk Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wishiwashi-School: 71-84 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Never-Melt Ice Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wishiwashi-School: 116-140 (39.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

What kind of switch-in is THAT supposed to be? Even with Protect Leftovers recovery, that is by no means a steady check, and Wishiwashi can't do much in retaliation.

Similarly, other bulky waters like Silvally and Qwilfish find themselves taking Freeze Dry to the face, wondering why they thought switching in was a good idea. Arctovish simply isn't walled by bulky waters if you bother to run a different set.

EDIT: OOPS, I FORGOT ABOUT ELDEGOSS
252+ Atk Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eldegoss: 91-108 (28 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Never-Melt Ice Arctovish Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eldegoss: 218-260 (67.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
i.e. no, it does not switch in.

Alternatively, running MysticWater means that you can do this to the newly dropped Avalugg:
4 SpA Mystic Water Arctovish Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Avalugg: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So much for that wall.

Also, for Cofagrigus:
252+ Atk Mystic Water Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 157-186 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Another great wall. (EDIT: granted, that's with Colbur instead of Leftovers, but the point stands, so here's another calc:
252+ Atk Mystic Water Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 157-186 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )

Toxicroak, while immune to Water, still has to watch for Psychic Fangs, or even an Icicle Crash.

The thing is, Arctovish doesn't need to run a Choice Band to absolutely destroy things like Quagsire, Clefairy, Sandaconda, Piloswine; it'll do that no matter what set it runs. Being able to do Arctovish things without the Band means that it runs a lot less prediction-reliant and a lot more reliably than people give it credit for, with various options like the aforementioned NeverMeltIce and Mystic Water, as well as Heavy Duty Boots and even Lum Berry. And that's while you still have to watch out for scarf!


To summarize:
- Arctovish demolishes most slow teams and puts insane pressure on slower critters in general
- It does this without a choice set
- It can run various items and movesets to defeat common switchins
- The possibility of it running scarf puts a lot of pressure on would-be offensive checks.

Don't sleep on the fish. This guy deserves a B+ or A- ranking.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

VR Nominations for early June Meta:

Big post but I figured I’d throw my two cents on the new drops and a few others I thought deserved recognition. Played around 50 games or so, hope I sound bout right.

URs:

UR to S
(Steel) UR to A+
(Ghost) UR to A-
UR to A
UR to B+/B
UR to B-
UR to C+
UR to C+
UR to C+

Rises:

C > B-/B
C+ to B-
B- to B+
(Dragon) A to A+


Drops:
S to A+
(Water and Dark) A+ to A
A to B

Reasonings

Rotom: UR to S

I let the dust settle on this one but I do think now that Rotom is the new king of NU. The Speed tier, coverage, and both offensive and defensive utility of this mon is unparalleled. NP dual STAB sets for HO are undeniably powerful and near impossible to switch into, as a Magnet boosted Thunderbolt 2HKOs most of the neutral meta, and after an NP either 1HKOs these threats or 2HKOs Clefairy. BO / balance adores the utility sets and how it threatens even more with Wisp, and has a great MU on all the hazard setters to make it a great Defog user. The fact that its dual STAB is near unresisted gives it a ton of room for Volt Switch to revenge kill and pivot on slower threats as well. This thing should probably be on the radar if at its worst, and at the least it makes a great S tier.

Silvally-Steel: UR to A+

Probably the best vally form on the market atm. The Steel-typing is great both offensively and defensively, and with Flame Charge as a cleaner it only fears bulky Waters and Electrics for the most part. Quag can still be teched with Grass Pledge and the others can be hurt bad by Rotom or Rotom-F, which are awesome support regardless, and U-turn with SD also really helps secure chip damage and punishing its slower checks.

Gurdurr: UR to A

BU sets are awesome sweepers, and Gurdurr makes for a great blanket check for physical attackers like most vally forms, Rapidash, Toge, you name it. Dark / Fighting coverage is awesome, and it doesn’t help that two of the best resistances to this coverage, Clefairy and croak, don’t like loosing Eviolite or lose if croak’s physical. Gurr is also great support for Rotom as a Dark-resist, checking the faster mons like Silvally-Dark, Morepeko, and Liepard (to a lesser extent Persian-A as well but knock into pshot sounds annoying), while Rotom can Volt on Skuntank and Malamar anyways if it needs to. There’s still the issue of Indeed-F, which even Scarf can 1HKO and stops Mach Punch from revenge killing Silvally-Steel and others, as well as Rotom, Froslass, and Rotom-S which stop sweeps, but all in all Gurdurr is a huge threat and awesome support.

Avalugg: UR to B+/B

Probably one of my least adamant noms is Avalugg, as it has seen little use from my perspective. It seems to have bonifide sets and niches, but the mono Ice typing is what holds it back. Ice is a popular enough type in NU, and you usually cannot afford another slow, vulnerable one if you were already planning on running Abo, Rotom-F, Piloswine, etc. Lugg is one of those mons that also needs a ton of support as is, and I just think there are better options in the long run.

Morpeko: UR to B-

Too many better Electric types that have better subtypings or support. If Galarian Mr. Mime and Hitmonchan are anything to go off of, offensive Rapid Spin users have been underwhelming here; being weak to Ground is also not too helpful. The support and cleaning potential it has is interesting but again it’s the competition of so many more viable Electric types that makes it hard to fit. I want too have faith that some teams out their can really benefit from it, but from what I’ve seen / tested there has always been better options.

Bolthound: UR to C+

Same deal as Morpeko with competition. Speed is cool but breaking power is somewhat lacking; I think even Jolteon is better as its special coverage just nails Electric-resistant Pokemon a bit better, and having a strong Volt and Electric immunity are also big pros. For that matter specifically, I think it has to be lower than Jolteon.

Silvally-Ghost: UR to A-

A good vally for offensive / defensive merit, but not the best by any means. Ghost is cool for Cofa and Rotom of course, but doesn’t have the best setup opportunities. Almost all of the faster mons in the meta has SE coverage for it as well. That and Ghost is already a very well established typing in the meta, so having it be used for your vally form feels like there’s some competition there as well. That said, Ghost is awesome offensively and almost all you need is Multi Attack anyways to sweep / wallbreak; again pledge for quag, or the better U-turn for some Darks and pivoting support.

Rises:
Shiinotic: C > B-/B

Shiinotic is proving to be a legit option for teams due to its typing alone; Grass/Fairy covers a ton defensively, and really helps support great mons like Togedemaru, Galarian Stunfisk, and Lanturn. But better than a physically defensive set, which I believe to be a tad underwhelming with its inability to capitalize on a good amount of walls / threats, I believe the Choice Specs set has a ton of potential. In the games / team I had it with, Shii found switch-in opportunities on multiple relevant mons: Cofag, Wishi, Sawk, Flapple, Dubwool, Gourg-S, Clefairy, Eldegoss, Silvally-Dragon, and Sandaconda are just a few that it can switch in safely too / punish them if locked into their resisted STAB coverage. Effect Spore is cheeky but it also helps to punish U-turn Wishi if it doesn’t Scald or EQ Shii when it switches in. Specs Shii is also mad powerful; you outspend and have a 62% chance to 1HKO a Piloswine with Eballfrom full, which is the same roll with Wishi or you can also rely on Moonblast to 2HKO as well. As for what takes its STAB coverage, mons like Steelvally, special def Clef, and Garb still don’t like being put to Sleep with Spore. It can be revenged killed by common threats as well, but finding resistances for Fire-, Steel-, and Poison isn’t the hardest at all for what its worth. The only true counter that I can find is ferroseed, but that can be hurt by Pollen Puff (not like there’s a better 4th move anyways, but maybe giving up Sludge Bomb for the 60% chance to 2hko special def clef is annoying). I really can’t recommend this mon enough, and if you’re looking for a Drampa replacement you gotta check out Specs Shii.

Replays:

Frosslass: C+ to B-

Speed tier and typing is everything. Great offensive pressure and providing Spikes is good too. Has some issues with its vulnerabilities and coverage surely but there’s a lot to make with this mon, and as gimmicky as Dbond is at least is lets it not be fodder in some scenarios.

Liepard: B- to B+

Rab nommed it to A- last month but I don’t think it’s that relevant now, but still close. The awesome speed tier and strong Knock / U-turn offers a ton for offensive teams. Its coverage is great and has room for utility like priority Copycat revenge kill opportunities against most valleys or twave for general sweepers.


Silvally-Dragon: A to A+

Probably the best late-game cleaner there is along with its Steel form. The two have awesome resistances for setup opportunities and have coverage that compliments there multi attacks near perfectly. They feel like side grades for what they can offer typing-wise and support wise to teams, so unless more time settles one to be better than the other, I think its safe to say they’re both on top.


Thwackey: UR to C+

SD sets can put in work in a similar fashion as Gourg-S, and the trade off of Speed is for knock Off and Swords Dance potential. There could be some synergy with Grassy Terrian that the team can benefit from, and it also has seen use as a threatening Choice Scarf user. I’m still a little skeptical so maybe C+ is its best fit for now.


Theivul: UR to C+

It now has two terrains to chose from, but it helps out indeed-f the most. See my earlier noms, as there isn’t that much more to say. With Psy terrain and Psychic it beats Gurdurr, so any teams relying on it as a main Dark-resist have to be very careful with it, and it also sets up NP easily on Rotom.

Drops:
Cofagrigus: S to A+

I think this drop is a little overdue as is. Most teams have easily adapted to Cofa’s presence and have found great checks for it. Meanwhile, Cofa is having a hard time sweeping teams and finding switch-in opportunities against everything that runs Knock Off, Toxic, or can pivot into special wallbreakers that just take chunks out of teams. The introduction of Rotom and Silvally-Ghost seals the deal that Cofa ain’t top banana in their tier anymore, and I think even Gurdurr and Avalugg give it a run for its money as blanket physical walls.

Silvally-Water and Dark: A+ to A

This is in respect partially to Steel and Dragon being better imo, but also because the typings are proving to have great support elsewhere. A lot of times teams don’t need to use their vally slot on these two when Liepard, Persian-a, skuntank, wishi, qwilfish, and lanturn have shown to be awesome support in their own right. However, Steel- and Dragon are much more limited, rare typings, and these formes being the top of their game makes other vallys have a noticeable opportunity cost in comparison.

Rotom-S: A to B

Regular Rotom stole its sunshine as an Elect immune to Ground. Still has defensive attributes and a STAB for Grasses / Fightings but most teams surely would enjoy the faster Rotom in comparison.

Hi, it's me again. I'd like to nominate the one and only View attachment 252091 Arctovish for a rise.

Simply put, Arctovish is good at what it does, and what it does is turn slower teams into a series of stains on the wall, and a lot of the so-called reliable checks simply aren't, and that's because Arctovish is actually a versatile Pokemon with options to dispatch whatever it finds most problematic.

I keep seeing all this stuff about how Wishiwashi walls ya boi Arctovish and that simply isn't true for mixed Arctovish sets. For example, with my own preferred NeverMeltIce set (Lonely nature):
252+ Atk Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wishiwashi-School: 71-84 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Never-Melt Ice Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wishiwashi-School: 116-140 (39.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

What kind of switch-in is THAT supposed to be? Even with Protect Leftovers recovery, that is by no means a steady check, and Wishiwashi can't do much in retaliation.

Similarly, other bulky waters like Silvally and Qwilfish find themselves taking Freeze Dry to the face, wondering why they thought switching in was a good idea. Arctovish simply isn't walled by bulky waters if you bother to run a different set.

EDIT: OOPS, I FORGOT ABOUT ELDEGOSS
252+ Atk Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eldegoss: 91-108 (28 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Never-Melt Ice Arctovish Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eldegoss: 218-260 (67.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
i.e. no, it does not switch in.

Alternatively, running MysticWater means that you can do this to the newly dropped Avalugg:
4 SpA Mystic Water Arctovish Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Avalugg: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So much for that wall.

Also, for Cofagrigus:
252+ Atk Mystic Water Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 157-186 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Another great wall. (EDIT: granted, that's with Colbur instead of Leftovers, but the point stands, so here's another calc:
252+ Atk Mystic Water Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 157-186 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )

Toxicroak, while immune to Water, still has to watch for Psychic Fangs, or even an Icicle Crash.

The thing is, Arctovish doesn't need to run a Choice Band to absolutely destroy things like Quagsire, Clefairy, Sandaconda, Piloswine; it'll do that no matter what set it runs. Being able to do Arctovish things without the Band means that it runs a lot less prediction-reliant and a lot more reliably than people give it credit for, with various options like the aforementioned NeverMeltIce and Mystic Water, as well as Heavy Duty Boots and even Lum Berry. And that's while you still have to watch out for scarf!


To summarize:
- Arctovish demolishes most slow teams and puts insane pressure on slower critters in general
- It does this without a choice set
- It can run various items and movesets to defeat common switchins
- The possibility of it running scarf puts a lot of pressure on would-be offensive checks.

Don't sleep on the fish. This guy deserves a B+ or A- ranking.

Arctovish is no where near A tier imo because of the limitations of its defensive typing and inability to capitilze in a lot of rwevant MUs. It’s pressured too easily by hazards, bulky water resists, Toxicroak, and a ton of relevant attackers that prey on its Water / Ice typing. It needs a ton of support with either set for its checks to be taken care of and to make sure when it’s in it’s able to actually wallbreak; until then, it can easily be deadweight. The set variety is also not too relevant when it really needs a choice item to justify itself, otherwise it can’t break or clean no where near as efficiently. Again, as long as the meta continues to facilitate bulky Water resistances / immunities, and fast Electric/Grass/Fighting types, I don’t see Arcto rising in the slightest.

 

[Rabia]

Still in bed and half awake so low effort post inbound, but Cofa and Darkvally should not drop at all. Cofa has been resistant to every adaptation the meta has thrown at it because of how darn good it is, and even the rise of random Toxic has been met with a surge in Rest usage. Meanwhile, I would argue Darkvally is actually the best Silvally forme rn because Dark is amazing defensively now as a result of us getting all these Ghost-types. It’s also just as potent as it has always been offensively, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Vish sucks tho

 

[quziel]

Was gonna try to get a like, half respectable ladder ranking for this, but choked right before 1600, so w/e.

is a very good mon, but S rank is very high, like, exceptionally high. It implies that rotom is one of the easiest mons to fit on a team and beyond that, will have a profound impact in every game. While Rotom is very good, imo it ain't S rank good, I'd place it more of A or A+. I've mainly been trying out Sitrus Defog, which is a cool set until Sandaconda refuses to be burned, in which case it can't really fog vs it, but outside of that Sitrus provides good sustain and bluffs colbur. NP sets are also super cool, but they have a good chance to die to a neutral MA after rocks while being outrun by it, making them only really excel if you can guarantee Vally is Para'd, or you're running it on veil.

was a mon I spent a lot of time running yesterday, and got me to 6th on ladder. Feels pretty good and can be ev'd to always tank 2 Vally MA's from full while outrunning and OHKO'ing Aboma after a SD, which is a very cool compromise. Grassy Terrain is absurd support for teammates such as Piloswine and Wishiwashi which would otherwise be easily worn down, and well, WH/DP/KO coverage is pretty damn solid, even if breaking past Eldegoss is iffy as hell. Would recommend placing it in C+ for now. Been running the following:

Thwack

Thwackey @ Eviolite
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 148 HP / 180 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

This mon is iffy af, cause well, its so limited, but the team styles that it has created, and the archetypes built around it have shown long term tour and ladder success, hence it should prolly move up to B or B+.

That's most of what I have strong feelings about now.

 

[Rabia]

short thoughts on the drops now that we've had them for a couple weeks, not sure if we'll update the VR given DLC drops soon + NUPL had a tiebreak that fucked us over a bit, but c'est la vie:

Probably a B Pokemon. Admittedly it doesn't get used a lot, but the amount of Pokemon it just walls is pretty immense, and I think it's overall not an awfully hard Pokemon to fit on teams.

unviable, C rank at best. It can't break any relevant Ground-type bar Galarian Stunfisk, and fucking Jolteon is a better fast Electric-type. perdemos

A- / A sounds about right for it I think. Provides a lot of utility between Knock Off and Mach Punch combined with its nice bulk. I think there's further room to explore with options like Toxic that may increase future viability, though.

Also pretty bad, probably C+ / B- at best. Its coverage isn't too awful, and Aura Wheel can be annoying to play around, but it still feels pretty underwhelming overall. It also has some of the worst bulk ever for a Pokemon that isn't particularly fast, leaving it really vulnerable to being KOed at times.

S rank. I don't think there's much room to dispute this. I disagree with the notion Rotom isn't the easiest Pokemon to fit on a team right now. Choice Specs and Hex sets are both so stupidly strong at the moment and can break through most teams with relative ease. Add on the amount of defensive utility Rotom brings and well, you've got a pretty decent Pokemon. I would 100% put this on the level of Cofagrigus at the moment.

Ghost probably goes around A-, while Steel is easily A+. I think the former is mostly outclassed by Silvally-Dark, but Ghost is still really good as an offensive typing, and it offers nice utility on offense builds as a spinblocker. Meanwhile, Silvally-Steel still provides really nice defensive utility a la last generation but now has much greater offensive potential.

other things that should happen (that I don't remember having nominated before):
(dragon) higher
higher
higher

(water) lower
lower
unranked (why is this B rank LMAO)
lower
(super) lower

 

[Mariannabelle]

Fresh thoughts drops that I use (disclaimer, I only run them on Ninjask teams)

Rotom (base): probably A+ or S
I think this Pokemon is nuts. Personally, my favorite set to run is defog with WispHex with a berry (Sitrus or Colbur). In practice, it forces switches so it can Defog, and wears down walls with WispHex. A stray burn means that from then on, Clefairy is forced into recovering upon taking a Hex (Knock Off support from the likes of Persian-A means lights out). Unlike the likes of Rotom-Fan, it isn't walled by random things like stall Togedemaru, either. If I don't confidently say S, it's because despite the great typing, it's frail and I'm already seeing random Crunch on Silvally formes to counteract Rotom. And all that is without mentioning its ability to run Nasty Plot and Choice (with Trick!) sets.

Silvally-Steel: probably A
I jumped for joy when Silvally-Steel dropped, because it really is uniquely useful among the Silvally Formes for my purposes. I don't need to remind you that Steel is a defensive typing that allows it to switch into the likes of Indeedee, Abomasnow, etc. and (if you're me) click Defog. It also gets U-turn, making it the *only* Steel type hazard removing pivot available. I think there's also potential in certain Work Up sets, as Multi-Attack/Flamethrower/Grass Pledge is pretty hard to wall. (Pretty sure work up is relatively unexplored for Silvally formes in general). I think that for something that you're gonna want to switch in a lot, the lack of Leftovers hurts so I don't wanna rank it higher.

---------------
Other stuff

I've been using this guy lately and my thoughts are mixed. He hits hard, sets up Substitute on passive Pokemon, and the new drops don't really disrupt its niche that much. (Silvally-Steel offers an alternative as a fast offensive steel Pokemon, but Perrserker still maintains status as a Band or Substitute attacker.) I think it's more consistently threatening than the things in B- so I'll at least say that I think it doesn't deserve to drop from B.

Terrible if you want to NP with it, but as a support option it has Taunt, Knock Off, Parting Shot, and a customizable speed that lets you pick and choose what to get a slow Parting Shot on. Support sets imo perform well more consistently than any of the other B- mons, imo (except for Arctovish, who I likewise still maintain is better than anything else in B-.)

Imo, it's utterly outclassed by base Rotom.

What can I say, but hey, I took my baby and tied for top of the ladder again (at the time of writing) so at the very least I can say it performs well even with the new drops. Much like the ones I mentioned earlier, it is way more of a threat than the likes of other things in its current rank.

 

[Rabia]

Locking this for now because new drops + council vote + July tier shift will be large = there's really not a whole lot to discuss right now in terms of placement of Pokemon. Hopefully we can update this in a few weeks once the metagame has settled :)

 

[shiloh]

big overhaul coming in, not going to go over rises and drops, just going to include a document with all the votes and where the mons ended up. the op is also getting updated rn, so feel free to take a look and see what changes you guys would nom.

nu vr update 7/8/2020

here is a paste with all the positions pre this change for reference - https://pastebin.com/raw/9VS7WX8c

the current vr council also consists of:

Eternally​

Finchinator​

Garay oak​

Kiyo​

quziel​

Rabia​

rozes​

Realistic Waters​

sjneider​

ill open this thread as soon as the op is updated, so feel free to post whatever noms you guys have after this n_n

edit: now open

 

[poh]

-> A+/ S

Weezing proved to be one of the top pokemon in the tier ever since it dropped. One of the few Pokemon holding back its viability just got banned so Weezing will continue to further establish itself. Most of us know what Weezing is capable of as it has had a memorable past in NU over the past generations. I just want to touch upon a few new tools it acquired and some interesting meta adaptations. Corrosive Gas is a new move it got with the first DLC and is a viable option to run. Removing items has never been more viable than this generation and greatly helps you out over the course of the game i.e removing Life Orb on Toxicroak, Leftovers on Wishiwashi and Stunfisk etc. Although Levitate is its preferred ability, Neutralizing Gas can be a good choice on some teams. Neutralizing Gas helps your matchup vs Pokemon that rely on their ability like Eldegoss, Flapple, Gurdurr, Clefairy, Basculin and Malamar. You could even make a crazy double switching in on a predicted Abomasnow to deny Snow Warning from activating. Losing the Ground immunity also has the advantage of absorbing Toxic Spikes. Some things i tried out are itemless Thief, Psybeam and Shadow Ball. The Thief set makes it a good Gourgeist check while Psybeam is, maybe a desperate one, a measure to deal with Toxicroak. Shadow Ball gives you more room to deal with Ghost-types. I think its versatility and splashability make it worthy for a rise.

-> A-

Most Ghost-types got better with their new move Poltergeist and i think Froslass deserves to be in the A ranks too. The CB set is extremely useful imo cause you outspeed so many things and have good power with high BP moves. Ice Shard is good priority and Trick cripples common switchins like Miltank, Piloswine and Alolan Persian. The combination of its speed, good damage output and overall utility warrants a rise imo.

-> A / A+

Basculin is massively underused atm even though I think it has become one of the best mons in the tier. With now access to Flip Turn, it completely skyrocketed its viability. Choiced sets are now easier to maneuver thanks to its new move while also making it one of the fastest viable scarfers in the tier. Adaptability ensures Scarf doesn't lose firepower while making the Specs set a scary wallbreaker. I think we might see it overtake Togedemaru as most popular scarfer.

 

[Lucario]

B+ -> A-/A
This cow's brother was banned some time ago and somehow both are really good. This thing is a great physical tank that can counter Cofagrigus's weaknesses of Poltergeist, special Decidueye, and minimal recovery, as well as being able to run Heal Bell. This Pokemon also has access to great abilities, want to run Body Slam or use Seismic Toss or Body Press against everything? Use Scrappy; Want to counter Triple Axle and Rapidash? Use Thick Fat; Sap Sipper is a great counter to Gourgeist, Eldegoss and a big new threat in Decidueye. Many Physical Wallbreakers can't even break through it, it's that good. It also has a base 100 speed, so it is able to outpseed other tanks and Toxic them first or heal first.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1150936717
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1150447453

UR -> C-/C
Emolga has two things that Jolteon and Rotom don't have: coverage and recovery. Firstly, let's speak of coverage. Jolteon and Rotom usually only run Tbolt, Volt Switch, and Shadow Ball as well as Toxic/Hyper Voice and Trick respectively. Emolga has access to Volt Switch, Tbolt, Air Slash, and Energy Ball as viable attacking moves. The addition of Energy Ball doesn't seem like much but is a lot for Sandaconda, Quagsire, and Golurk predicting an Electric move. Next, it gets Roost, meaning it doesn't have to run Specs or Scarf but can run Life Orb and heal every now and then. I also have some replays with it doing some work. In the first it didn't do crazy amounts of work but did a fair bit, the second one is a sweep.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1148319047
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1147311425 (ignore bad plays vs. Malamar)

edit: added replays of Miltank being unstoppable

 

[Mariannabelle]

Hey, it's local Ninjask

advocate Mari.

Meta's changed a bit since last time I posted, so I thought I'd give Ninjask a thorough testing again. The conclusions are as follows:

Ninjask still craps all over many offensive mons. Despite having to watch out for boosted priority (some of which can be blocked/scouted with Protect, like Kanga's Fake Out) from some of them, Ninjask deals massive damage or outright OHKO's new/recently popular threats like Decidueye and Basculin, and still carries Swords Dance to break through walls like Lickilicky and Miltank.

Going itemless (which is the natural course of action to get Acrobatics) means that Ninjask has an immunity to the new (and commonly used) move Poltergeist- this means that Ninjask can actually set up for free in certain scenarios (for example, Band Froslass locked into Poltergeist) as well as having a clutch option to just raw switch in when this move is predicted.

Whatever. Actions speak louder than words so here, I took a (more or less fresh) alt to the top with only Ninjask teams again.

(Mari Workshop is my alt;)

So to wrap it up- Ninjask is far more consistently threatening than the likes of other current B- Pokemon like Cursola, Klinklang, and Unfezant, and deserves to move up to B.

 

[Realistic Waters]

C ---> Unrank
Not very good despite being strong. Join the shadow realm of very slow unappealing wallbreakers please! Not to mention it has one of the worst typings (rip to knock off, u-turn, ice beam, gunk shot, poltergeist and flamethrower)

C ---> Unrank
Basically similar reasons but trades power and speed for better typing. Still pretty outclassed by Decidueye offensively and offers less utility over Eldegoss/Tangela defensively.

C- ---> Unrank
Doesn't fare too well against the large majority of higher ranks. Middling bulk and terrible speed hold it back.

C+ ---> C
My name is Waters so I obviously hate grass types. Slightly better than the latter but it should go down / maybe unrank. Stab + Nature Power is workable alongside choice sets but you won't get too far being out of range to ohko a target @ +1 / fail to hit grasses/fires/poisons/steels for good damage.

B- ---> C
Most known for being a stealth rock lead. Pretty much an average performer but now struggles with Miltank and fails to outspeed Persian which are both fairly common. I had using offensive sets but then came along Decidueye to outclass.

B- ---> C+
Stunfisk is so common e.e and most other choices can tank hits or outspeed.

B ---> C+
Overrated imo. It's fine I guess but a lot of threats have switched to special attacking, using grass coverage or using toxic all of which it hates.

& switch places

(Steel) A ---> A-/B+
A little overrated like Quagsire. Idk man but maybe it's just me who's not feeling steelvally. Our steel resists are pretty sturdy right now and other things have enough bulk to tank consecutive neutral hits. Your coverage becomes pretty weak trying to break Wishiwashi, Stunfisk or Rotom's for example and it's not too hard to revenge kill.

A+ ---> S
Already made a post in the metagame thread so i'll just link that for my reasoning here

 

[Rabia]

-> A
-> A+

Despite tier shifts happening today, these two changes should still be made. Miltank's the most common Stealth Rock setter right now for good reason; being able to consistently handle Decidueye and Gourgeist-S is an invaluable niche, and Bouffalant dropping really doesn't affect Miltank all that much because their roles don't have that much overlap. Meanwhile, Alolan Persian has shown this past month how consistent of a pivot it is. It's a reliable answer to the plethora of Ghost-types and physical attackers NU has to offer and is a great source of general utility, with options like Knock Off, Toxic, Taunt, and Switcheroo all serving to disrupt the opposition.



:gourgeist-super:



None of these have really demonstrated much reason to be used over the past month. Dubwool struggles to really stand out at all and is useless against a large majority of teams because it's forced to rely on Payback to hit Ghost-types, leaving it stonewalled by Cofagrigus. Exeggutor has a putrid defensive typing and is just inferior to the other Grass-type wallbreakers. Gourgeist-XL is cool on paper as a stronger option than Gourgeist-S, meaning it can break through some of the softer answers to the latter like Eldegoss, but that's about it. It's otherwise just a slower wallbreaker that's more vulnerable to being revenge killed. Hitmontop is still Shitmontop; Triple Axel is cool, but that's about it really. Shiinotic struggles to stand out as a defensive Pokemon despite having Spore + Strength Sap; Clefairy and Eldegoss are generally just easier to justify on teams.

Very interested to see where the tier will continue to go, especially with new Pokemon like Accelgor and Bouffalant that look likely to have a reasonable impact.

 

[shiloh]

-> a+

agree with rabia on this one as persian has quickly become one of the most splashable mons in the tier for me, and has become a crutch for me when building a lot. boots honestly were a godsend for this mon (and for a lot of others), but the ability for persian to switch in indefinete times even with hazards up, and get chip with moves like foul play/knock off, or spread status with toxic, only to parting shot out the next turn makes it very easy to just throw on teams. being able to check just about every physical attacker in the tier, aside from fighters, also makes it very hard not to use when building, as it can be used as a catch-all against sd silv forms, kangaskhan, and other strong physical attackers. just a great mon in the tier, and i think its ability to fit on just about any build means it deserves a high ranking.

-> a-/a

specs basc has picked up a lot in usage recently, and its hard not to see why. adapt hydro has very few switchins, save for water immunities like croak, or bulky waters like wishiwashi/lanturn. hydro/surf are just super spammable atm, and basc has basically mandated running water immunities/specially defensive water checks on just about every team. its high speed, combined with how hard it hits with specs makes it just really tough to deal with and i think its ranking should be updated to reflect that as well.

-> a- / -> a-

at this point in time i think both bulky waters are just about the same level of viability, and if anything wishiwashi is a bit ahead of lanturn. while this might change over the next few weeks depending on how much magneton picks up in popularity, but wishiwashi is just generally better at the moment due to better coverage options in earthquake, and just being able to deal with mons like croak a bit better due to its better physical defense. it not having a secondary electric typing also allows it to switch into ground types like piloswine/sandaconda a lot easier, since lanturn is obviously going to be scared out by earthquakes from both of them.

-> c+

mare is something i tried out a few weeks ago, as i wanted a bulky water on a more defensive team, and wishiwashi and lanturns lack of instant recovery turned me away from them. once i tried it out, i wasnt disappointed at all, due to all the utility mare was able to offer. with regenerator + instant recovery, it becomes very hard to chip/damage it into range of attacks, and with its secondary typing of poison it can actually check mons like croak/other fighting types better than washi/lanturn. it also has access to tspikes+haze, both of which are great utility moves that force the opponent to play around mare a lot more differently. overall its bulk is not amazing, even with eviolite, but its generally enough for mare to get by and check a lot of common mons like croak/basc/cofag/etc. ill link the spread im using, alongside some replays of it in action from my nu open games, in case you guys want to try it out yourselves/just want to see what it can do.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-512673
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1160547574
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-511628

Mareanie @ Eviolite  
Ability: Regenerator  
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD  
Bold Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Knock Off / Scald  
- Toxic Spikes  
- Recover  
- Haze

 

[Pakawaka]

C -> B
No way this thing is C rank anymore, at the very least, a B rank for me, Technician Boosted Triple Axel is really powerful, Rapid Spin also getting boosted by Technician is also a nice bonus. Hitmontop can hit stuff really hard while also providing Utility in Rapid Spin.

UR -> B+
This thing hits super hard, even some special walls in NU like Miltank:

( 252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Miltank: 271-319 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ).

A great offensive pivot, Analytic also gives it that extra boost to destroy stuff in general that don't resist Electric and Steel moves.

B+ -> A-
With more Ghost types being popular, especially Gourgeist and Decidueye, its important to have a Ghost and Grass move Immunity, It checks both of those pretty well, and pairs well with teammates that appreciate Sap Sipper, such as Quagsire and Lanturn.

UR -> B-
There is not much that can be said about Ditto, we all know what It does, and in this tier It does his only job fairly well, with alot of set up mons to take advantage off, such as Decidueye, Toxicroak, Silvally, etc.

 

[Rabia]

vr update cool

voting results

new rankings
-> B+: Accelgor's niche mostly lies within it being a fast wallbreaker with access to Spikes to further augment its own and its teammates' breaking power, and it also possesses some other more niche sets, with Throat Spray + Unburden and strictly utility sets popping up some too. However, it still suffers from being unable to reliably break past bulky Ghost- and Poison-types, thus harming its overall potential.

-> B-: Bouffalant is a weird compromise between Kangaskhan and Miltank. It can run Choice Band sets with Reckless or go more defensive with Substitute + Swords Dance. Its issue mostly does just come down to that competition; it's not as reliable a breaker as Kangaskhan because it relies on prediction and is much slower, while bulky setup sets struggle with deciding what coverage to use.

-> C: It does the same stuff in every other tier.

-> C: I don't know why we ranked this, but some people seem to think Agility + Guts sets are decent.

-> A-: Magneton has mostly been used so far as a bulky pivot with Volt Switch and Teleport, ensuring Electric-immune switch-ins can't prevent it from pivoting out. Defensive Steel-types are always good, and Magneton can check a fair few common Pokemon like Silvally-Dragon, Weezing, and Togedemaru. That said, it's pretty easy to wall, and so far Choice sets haven't really taken off, so it can be somewhat limited in certain games.

rises
B+ -> A-: Choice Specs sets have been quite solid for awhile now, and Choice Scarf sets have popped up too. Despite being walled by a couple common Pokemon, it's still able to keep up momentum thanks to Flip Turn and has good synergy with other common breakers like Decidueye, making it pretty easy to fit on teams.

A+ -> S: This shouldn't shock anyone. Decidueye is a premier wallbreaker because of how hard it is to wall. Very few Pokemon can switch into its Leaf Storm, and most that do fall to Shadow Ball. It's also got some more utility-based sets in Choice Scarf and Defog, which furthers its niche beyond that of "strong wallbreaker that clicks STAB moves and occasionally U-turn."

B+ -> A: A response to Decidueye's dominance has been the rise of Sap Sipper Miltank, which reliably switches into its STAB moves and can proceed to do whatever from there. It's also a nice stop to other common Ghost-types like Gourgeist-S and Silvally-Ghost and one of the most reliable Stealth Rock setters currently available.

B- -> B: Ladder Pokemon that does ladder things. It's pretty bad all things considered, but chipping checks with U-turn and eventually cleaning late-game isn't too tough of an ask.

A- -> A+: Alolan Persian is one of the best utility pivots available; it handles every Swords Dance Silvally with ease in addition to other problematic physical attackers like Gourgeist-S and Rapidash. It's really hard to not get some run out of this Pokemon because of all the tools it has at its disposal.

drops
B -> B-: Honestly probably could've dropped further. It just doesn't see much usage at all and dislikes how most common wallbreakers are specially offensive at the moment.

A+ -> A: Still a great Pokemon, just struggles a bit more than it used to with the uptick in defensive Pokemon that threaten it in some manner (Weezing's Sludge Bomb, Alolan Persian's Knock Off, etc.) It's also incredibly easy to exploit because of how passive it is, which doesn't really do it any favors.

B- -> C: It struggles to stand out from other Ghost-types and is mostly outclassed by Drednaw as a suicide lead Stealth Rock setter.

B -> C+: Stall isn't really common, and that's where Quagsire shines best. Additionally, I think it had a bit more of its viability tied to potential on more balanced builds, but it really hasn't seen usage on such teams because it's hard to justify over other options like Wishiwashi.

A -> A-: Sandaconda's just slowly been declining as other options arose in the tier for setting Stealth Rock. It checks a lot less than it used to because most Toxicroak are special now, and it's not hard to fit on other countermeasures to Swords Dance Silvally formes.

B+ -> B: Prevalence of Alolan Persian and competition with other Ghost-types make it hard to justify on many teams.

A- -> B: Togedemaru has fallen off hard lately. Choice Scarf sets aren't nearly as good because they aren't relied on to check much defensively and can struggle to clean late-game because of the myriad of Pokemon that stop it from spamming its STAB attacks. There are also simply more options now to fulfill the role of a Choice Scarf user. Poor rat.

we also unranked a lot of stuff that I don't care to elaborate on, so I'll just list them below
(super) (fire)

This is probably the last update before next shifts, but we'll see what happens.

 

[Rabia]

some discussion points leading up to the theoretical nuke in September

potential rises
honestly nothing feels too low in my eyes, maybe someone else feels differently though

potential drops
It's not good.

Gourgeist-S has struggled with usage lately because far more people are favoring Decidueye as a breaker; the latter is just significantly much harder to wall because you can't just tech an itemless Pokemon onto your team to block Poltergeist, and there are a fair few blanket physical walls that give Gourgeist-S problems. Maybe a drop to A would be justified?

I feel like we rose Golurk awhile back because of hype and never adjusted its rank. It hasn't really ever felt like an A- Pokemon to me since then despite a definite increase in usability.

Has anyone seen this Pokemon used since the first month it was dropped? It just feels so difficult to justify using right now. It's so much worse than our other Fighting-types and can't do anything in many games because of Cofagrigus + Weezing/other Poison-types prevalence.

Liepard hasn't felt relevant in the tier for... months now it feels like. It has a really good niche of outspeeding most of the common Ghost-type wallbreakers, but it can struggle at times to actually break teams because of how reliant it is on Choice Band Knock Off for damage.

This felt really strong a few months ago and now feels really bad. I'm not sure I can justify keeping it above B at the moment. It seems to me like it's just too easy for it to end up walled, and the Silvally formes are generally better setup wallbreakers in my experience.

now I'm just gonna list off some Pokemon I think aren't even worth ranking with a very brief reason why
SubToxic sets are cool, but meh, they really don't function well in the current tier. Too many things pose a roadblock to them.

Those offense builds it used to find itself on don't really exist much anymore. Maybe it could stick in C? I feel like even that's an oversell.

It's just as bad as the last time we voted on it.

What is this thing supposed to do? Sure, it has a more defined niche with Silvally-Steel gone, but I really don't think I've seen one of these period for several months, let alone seen one do something of value.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Here are some cruicial noms that I think were missed / left unsaid but undoubtedly need attention:

B > A-: I think Mariannabelle was underselling this mon in the post. It is one of the most centralizing and abusive physical sweepers there is, and the lack of consistent Flying checks makes it a phenomenal revenge killer to pretty much all of our S and A ranks; some of our best breakers like Decidueye, the Fighting-types, and Gourg are all 1HKO'd with ineffective priority or Speed-boosting options... Even Cofagrigus has to be careful eating too many Acrobatic hits while being a sitting duck for U-turn. Chopping it up to a "Ladder Pokemon that does ladder things" isn't fair when Ninjask has been winning all NU Open and Seasonal... Is it the lack of replays from previous rounds? Wins from round 7 so far:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1169942250-ix2badyjtbzg8kalart2tkyc7m7rsgipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-514110
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-514115
Edit from Expulso 's open and NUL games:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1158914172-ivxf5nsj8jqt6mpd6dnmr1f7lg9m5f7pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1168304999-r4u9bo0clshvcbvbrfxvflj5jx69g2upw

I do not understand the reluctancy to rate Ninjask highly, as I believe it's more than appropriate. It's been here and dominating NU for the while, and although it was only nommed to B, I wish there was more agency on the council's side to nom it higher to reflect its actual viability.

A- > B-: This is an Alolan Persian meta, and Liepard's usage has tanked since it took charge. I believe this has to due with the uptick of entry hazard users, and Liepard's reliance on an offensive item to make it a better attacker hurts it while Alolan Persian comfortably equips Heavy-Duty Boots. More so, Alolan Persian checks overlap with Liepard's for the most part, but the former's role as physical check and pivot is much more desirable and effective than the latter's revenge killing or wallbreaking capabilities. Even offensive VoltTurn teams would rather have the extra Speed and security from Alolan Persian's physical bulk to better check attackers like Frosslass and Kengaskhan. I suppose I should also mention that the Silvally-Dark adaptation of fitting Swords Dance and Defog on the same U-turn set also hurts Liepard, as it can do more with less in comparison. The few niches Liepard does in fact offer are notable but no where near substantial enough to be mentioned as an A rank.

UR > C+: Somewhat a recent adaptation has been offensive Defog Lurantis. It fits Heavy-Duty boots nicely, and attacks on both ends with Superpower and Leaf Storm to threaten out setters like Miltank, Ferroseed, Sandaconda, Clefairy, and most of the others besides Poison-types. Those mons are actually its biggest problem given how viable they are and limited support to check them, but the offensive Defog role having some breathing room outside of Rotom formes is much welcome addition for teambuilding. I mostly seen / used this set on the ladder, but here's a tour game by Oathkeepre who won with it: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1169523380

Alright now on to pwn the liberals with this reply:

some discussion points leading up to the theoretical nuke in September

potential rises
honestly nothing feels too low in my eyes, maybe someone else feels differently though

potential drops
It's not good.

Gourgeist-S has struggled with usage lately because far more people are favoring Decidueye as a breaker; the latter is just significantly much harder to wall because you can't just tech an itemless Pokemon onto your team to block Poltergeist, and there are a fair few blanket physical walls that give Gourgeist-S problems. Maybe a drop to A would be justified?

I feel like we rose Golurk awhile back because of hype and never adjusted its rank. It hasn't really ever felt like an A- Pokemon to me since then despite a definite increase in usability.

Has anyone seen this Pokemon used since the first month it was dropped? It just feels so difficult to justify using right now. It's so much worse than our other Fighting-types and can't do anything in many games because of Cofagrigus + Weezing/other Poison-types prevalence.

Liepard hasn't felt relevant in the tier for... months now it feels like. It has a really good niche of outspeeding most of the common Ghost-type wallbreakers, but it can struggle at times to actually break teams because of how reliant it is on Choice Band Knock Off for damage.

This felt really strong a few months ago and now feels really bad. I'm not sure I can justify keeping it above B at the moment. It seems to me like it's just too easy for it to end up walled, and the Silvally formes are generally better setup wallbreakers in my experience.

now I'm just gonna list off some Pokemon I think aren't even worth ranking with a very brief reason why
SubToxic sets are cool, but meh, they really don't function well in the current tier. Too many things pose a roadblock to them.

Those offense builds it used to find itself on don't really exist much anymore. Maybe it could stick in C? I feel like even that's an oversell.

It's just as bad as the last time we voted on it.

What is this thing supposed to do? Sure, it has a more defined niche with Silvally-Steel gone, but I really don't think I've seen one of these period for several months, let alone seen one do something of value.

is pretty bad and situational, B was always really high for it imo and time has proven it's not doing anything too special while Lanturn is still super popular; lacking Toxic while it is vulnerable to status itself is also pretty annoying. Still viable as an offensive Defog option but on par with Lurantis. does have competition with Decidueye and the adaptation of Polterproof sets, making it very hard to use and somewhat MU fishy, so a drop seems warranted. It's hard to forget to build for it because of the competition, making counters and checks plentiful. was another one I initially thought when too high, but CB sets are still one of the best breakers which is consistent and basically no switch-ins when you factor in Trick. It's been winning late-game for me when the opponent's Polterproof Rest Cofagrigus thinks it can Iron Defense and sleep on Golurk, when the reality is it gets Tricked and has to choose one of its attacks that you can pair Golurk with a Normal-type like Miltank so you have full immunity. is as good as ever. Fighting priority, getting boosted by status, and reliable bulk / recovery makes it an excellent win con while you can pressure its checks that have limited-to-no recovery themselves. see above nerds. it has a niche but nothing too A worthy. Sad to see no Fire-types in the A ranks when they have some pretty powerful coverage, but Rapidash just isn't representative of the top meta. bad mon with MU fishing hopes at best. Some of the best mons have sets that straight counter it and its playstyle, and I can't in good conscious advise to build around it. still is viable, especially with Ninjask as high as I think it is, but its niche could be rated lower, sure. :morepeko: nothing special themselves, and if something like Hitmontop got the boot then these totally aren't worth it.

 

[Punchshroom]

Rise to A-

Accelgor's offensive sets are pretty nice and all but the awkward coverage has always held it back from breaking/threatening as much of the tier as it wants to for more Spiking opportunities. Like despite Acid Spray which can punish pivoting or the addition of Mud Shot is nice and all for hitting Croak and Garbo switch-ins, offensive Accelgor will always have coverage issues, which is especially compounded on sets that only have 3 attacking slots. That said, I think one of Accel's biggest qualities actually lies in its bulky set. It actually occupies a comparable niche to Alolan Persian in that it's a fast mon that can outspeed much of the offensive meta while being able to survive even the strongest of physical hits (Adamant Kanga Silk Scarf Double Edge, CB Froslass Triple Axel, SmallGeist Poltergeist, etc.), though the similarities end there as the support they offer is wildly different. In addition to more Spiking opportunities than ever before, it can extend its longevity with Recover whereas either Encore or Final Gambit are great moves that can provide you with offensive momentum, so Accel is rarely deadweight in nearly any matchup. I even tested non-STAB Accelgor by having Knock Off as its only attacking move (primarily to harass Rotom variants), and it still performed fairly decently since this Accel variant is basically a disrupting machine anyway and didn't miss STAB Bug Buzz all that much (few exceptions being Grass-type hazard removers like Eldegoss and Lurantis, or even the bulky Accel mirror lol). Bulky Accel can even hold on to its Heavy-Duty Boots so it acts as a good Knock Off sponge as well, especially against Alolan Persian. Honestly bulky Accel is such a boon to offensive teams for basically everything it offers that I feel it's actually more effective overall than offensive Accel in this meta despite not having as much of a presence (atm).

Rise to B+

I've come to respect Ninjask more recently: it's the fastest offensive threat in the tier, its maintenance cost is pretty exaggerated for how simple and effective it is, and it even has Protect to stuff both Choice Scarfers & Kangaskhan's Fake Out. Between the itemless variants that spam strong Acrobatics toward the mid/lategame or the Heavy Duty Boots variants that have more team flexibility (aka more wallbreakers that abuse Ninjask's U-turning) at the cost of less reliable but plenty serviceable Flying STAB, Ninjask has proven that it's not that difficult to upkeep while being able to mitigate the issues of Alolan Persian, Kangaskhan, and Choice Scarfers that most offensive mons have to deal with. It's also a coincidence that it smashes bulky Accelgor too btw.

 

[Parkzy]

C+ to B+ in my opinion Quagsire is one of the best walls in the meta and teams underprepared for it can just get walled out by it. The combination of its great typing in water and ground allowing it an immunity to electric as well as resistances to fire and poison are also very useful in the meta game and both physically defensive and specially defensive are great options. For instance sp.def Quag can sit in front of Cram, Rotoms, Toge, Rapidash, skuntank, toxicroak, Weezing, Cofagrigus, Magneton, Jolteon and Alcremie and Accelgor without energy ball/giga drain as coverage. This is the only pokemon to my knowledge that can come in on specs Magneton and reliably heal off damage after every exchange which other switch ins such as the other three: Ferroseed, Galarian Stunfisk and Lanturn cannot claim to. Even bulky mons like sp.def stunfisk take about 20% on switch in and after a while that can really rack up. Its unaware ability, again which I alluded to in earlier segments, is great allowing it to be safety net to various silvally forms and Ninjask (if physically defensive) It doesn't make A tier to me due to its passivity in some occasions giving the likes of weakened Clefairy recovery, Malamar PP stalls it and Lurantis can begin contrary setting up on it. Another issue is its a ground type that doesn't provide a stealth rocker and with some teams needing the ground type to fulfil that role I can understand. That being said with the prominence of Miltank being an amazing rocker in the tier and partner for Quagsire and being able to be paired with other rockers such as Clefairy and Ferroseed being able to pair with it well due to Quagsire's great defensive typing it still has many outs on a team looking for a reliable rocker. Its not the easiest mon to put on a team but it has performed consistently well for me and I feel needs re-evaluated.