Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [Read post #1024]

First real post, hope this goes through alright

I feel that with mons like Zeraora, Magnezone, Kyurem, etc. back on the scene and as potent as ever, OU has been looking more and more like it did during the Isle of Armor (DLC 1) meta. I'd like to continue that trend by saying Tangrowth :tangrowth: has been a strong defensive force in the meta once again with recent shifts and is wholly deserving of A- rank.

:dp/tangrowth:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 235-278 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 278-330 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 330-395 (81.6 - 97.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
+4 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252+ Atk Rillaboom Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (not a KO after one turn of Grassy Terrain)
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 258-306 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- approx. 2HKO


252+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 179-213 (44.3 - 52.7%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 344-407 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 272-324 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 326-386 (80.6 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 444-524 (171.4 - 202.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 500-592 (184.5 - 218.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 266-314 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Rocky Helmet damage from Double Iron Bash
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 194-230 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 204-240 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 170-200 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 242-286 (74.6 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 188-222 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 SpA Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 124-148 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 256-304 (91.1 - 108.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 174-206 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Rocky Helmet damage
0 Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 304-360 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Tangrowth's physically defensive set is very effective at switching in on a variety of deadly Pokemon, including Pokemon such as Rillaboom, Kartana, and Garchomp that are highly desirable to check, and up-and-coming threats like Bisharp, Zeraora, and Urshifu-RS, as they set up or click Choice Banded attacks. Tangrowth then can do what it does best: chip the threat with Rocky Helmet and proceed to pivot to another Pokemon to take the following hit, incapacitate the opposing Pokemon with Sleep Powder or Stun Spore, or attack as necessary, since Tangrowth is unique as a defensive pivot in the wide variety of offensive Pokemon that it can damage effectively.

The Assault Vest set is known as somewhat of a novelty in this generation, but with its surprising special bulk it can serve as a strong secondary pivot to near-uncheckable special attackers such as Latios and Tapu Lele, a semi-reliable Future Sight switchin, and a stalwart pivot into the tier's Electric-types, Tapu Koko and Magnezone. It also effectively deals with the tier's two arguably most dangerous mixed attackers: Aegislash and Mixed Garchomp. Though it misses out on Sleep Powder, the Assault Vest set's ability (and necessity) to run 4 attacks allows it to damage a wider range of threats. In particular, the use of Earthquake makes this Tangrowth a far better check to the aforementioned Electric-types. It even has the ability to use Rock Slide to tank one hit from Volcarona and catch it off-guard. A novelty within a novelty, yes, but something to note nonetheless.

All in all, Tangrowth is leagues more useful now than it has been in quite a good while, as evidenced by its recent uptick in usage, due to its typing, stats, movepool, and of course the incomparable Regenerator allowing it to serve as a check to several of the best Pokemon in the meta. To top it all off, it has very good synergy with other defensive Pokemon in the tier, including Toxapex, Heatran, Corviknight, and fellow Regenerator users Slowking and Tornadus-T, that cover for its faults, such as its low Special Defense and Speed, weaknesses, and difficulty in forcing progress on some key Pokemon, most notably Corviknight. As such, Tangrowth is a Pokemon whose many merits are self-explanatory and whose weaknesses, though significant, can be shored up easily, and therefore it deserves A- rank.

TL,DR: :tangrowth: B+ -> A-
 
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First real post, hope this goes through alright

I feel that with mons like Zeraora, Magnezone, Kyurem, etc. back on the scene and as potent as ever, OU has been looking more and more like it did during the Isle of Armor (DLC 1) meta. I'd like to continue that trend by saying *Tangrowth* :tangrowth: has been a strong defensive force in the meta once again with recent shifts and *is wholly deserving of A- rank*.

:dp/tangrowth:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 235-278 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 278-330 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 330-395 (81.6 - 97.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
+4 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252+ Atk Rillaboom Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (not a KO after one turn of Grassy Terrain)
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 258-306 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- approx. 2HKO


252+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 179-213 (44.3 - 52.7%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 229-271 (56.6 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 272-324 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 444-524 (171.4 - 202.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 500-592 (184.5 - 218.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 266-314 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Rocky Helmet damage from Double Iron Bash
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 194-230 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 204-240 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 170-200 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 242-286 (74.6 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 188-222 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 SpA Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 124-148 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 256-304 (91.1 - 108.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 174-206 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Rocky Helmet damage
0 Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 304-360 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Tangrowth's physically defensive set is very effective at switching in on a variety of deadly Pokemon, including Pokemon such as Rillaboom, Kartana, and Garchomp that are highly desirable to check, and up-and-coming threats like Bisharp, Zeraora, and Urshifu-RS, as they set up or click Choice Banded attacks. Tangrowth then can do what it does best: chip the threat with Rocky Helmet and proceed to pivot to another Pokemon to take the following hit, incapacitate the opposing Pokemon with Sleep Powder or Stun Spore, or attack as necessary, since Tangrowth is unique as a defensive pivot in the wide variety of offensive Pokemon that it can damage effectively.

The Assault Vest set is known as somewhat of a novelty in this generation, but with its surprising special bulk it can serve as a strong secondary pivot to near-uncheckable special attackers such as Latios and Tapu Lele, a semi-reliable Future Sight switchin, and a stalwart pivot into the tier's Electric-types, Tapu Koko and Magnezone. It also effectively deals with the tier's two arguably most dangerous mixed attackers: Aegislash and Mixed Garchomp. Though it misses out on Sleep Powder, the Assault Vest set's ability (and necessity) to run 4 attacks allows it to damage a wider range of threats. In particular, the use of Earthquake makes this Tangrowth a far better check to the aforementioned Electric-types. It even has the ability to use Rock Slide to tank one hit from Volcarona and catch it off-guard. A novelty within a novelty, yes, but something to note nonetheless.

All in all, Tangrowth is leagues more useful now than it has been in quite a good while, as evidenced by its recent uptick in usage, due to its typing, stats, movepool, and of course the incomparable Regenerator allowing it to serve as a check to several of the best Pokemon in the meta. To top it all off, it has very good synergy with other defensive Pokemon in the tier, including Toxapex, Heatran, Corviknight, and fellow Regenerator users Slowking and Tornadus-T, that cover for its faults, such as its low Special Defense and Speed, weaknesses, and difficulty in forcing progress on some key Pokemon, most notably Corviknight. As such, Tangrowth is a Pokemon whose many merits are self-explanatory and whose weaknesses, though significant, can be shored up easily, and therefore it deserves A- rank.

TL,DR: :tangrowth: B+ -> A-
What's even better is that sd kart dont run smart strike and sd chomp poison jab, so makes tang even better as a check
 
i disagree w the nomination of tornt to S :tornadus-therian:

Zeraora, Zapdos, Weavile, Tapu Koko usage fucks it up a lot, has to rely on hurricane to get the job done and thats gonna make it inconsistent, S ranks are supposed to be consistent w no drawbacks, while i do agree that the np set and utility set are good, this mon can be super inconsistent a lot, if you have god luck, u can use this mon. But i dont like how a lot of the mons (zeraora,koko,weavile) that outspeed it are rising in usage and it hurts tornt a lot in a game.
 
Some thoughts:

:landorus-therian: S --> A+: Strongly Disagree

No.

:dragapult: A --> A+ or S: Strongly Agree (VERY MUCH leaning towards S)

Dragapult has very quickly reestablished itself as one of the tier's premiere forms of speed control and both its Specs and its HDB Pivot sets are among the tier's most difficult-to-check threats, period. It can easily disrupt a team with status and its incredible STAB Hex, it's borderline-impossible to outpace, and its Specs set is borderline-impossible to switch in against. Pult is almost drawback-free to run (it's not flawless, though) simply because it almost always does something every single game. It's just too good to not deserve a rise, and I'd honestly go so far as to argue it should be in S.

:tornadus-therian: A+ --> S: Strongly Agree

Torn-T doesn't appreciate the trending Weavile, and the still-amazing Koko, Zeraora, and Zapdos, but I think it's just too good as a breaker to not rise. Torn-T is easily one of the most centralizing forces in the tier (though not quite as much as Landorus-T in that regard) and it serves as a valuable offensive check against many of the tier's biggest threats, many of which themselves are on the rise. It always puts in work with Knock Off, it's always hard to KO because of Regenerator and its decent bulk, and it can turn most Hurricane switchins into free momentum with U-Turn if it so desires on a more utility-centric set. It's just an all-around fantastic mon with very little opportunity cost because of how it differentiates itself from similar breakers and similar Defoggers.

:heatran: A+ --> S: Unsure

I have a much more liberal definition of an S-rank threat than what is generally used on the VR and I'd personally consider all five of Dragapult, Garchomp, Heatran, Torn-T, and Lando-T S-rank threats
. But given the current criteria for being an S-rank mon I'm not sure if Heatran deserves that title any more than Garchomp does, and Garchomp itself is a bit more contentious as an S-rank threat among many players. I do still think Pult and Torn-T are S-rank threats though, but I'm on the fence with this mon.

:slowking: A --> A+ and :slowbro: A --> A-: Strongly Agree

There's always going to be a Slow-twin this high up, and with recent metagame trends I believe Slowking has solidified itself as the better Slow-twin for now and one of the best mons in the entire metagame. Slowbro isn't bad, of course, but I think it should drop a subrank since it just isn't as good as the King right now.

:rillaboom: A --> A+: Strongly Agree

Rillaboom hasn't been this amazing since DLC1, but it is truly back with a vengeance. Both Swords Dance and Choice Band have solidified themselves as incredibly solid offensive forces in this metagame after Rillaboom's excellent performance in Week 9 of SPL (it was used six times and had a 100% winrate and put in crucial work in several games either by virtue of its own offensive pressure or by providing threats with the Grassy Terrain recovery they needed to survive crucial attacks. Rillaboom is an offensive mon, through-and-through, but it offers teams it fits on too much and is too excellent at what it does to not be an A+ rank threat. There's a good reason why so many players are quite quick to consider it a top 10 threat currently.

:weavile: B --> A-: Strongly Agree

I won't say much more at the risk of being redundant considering how many players have already talked to death about Weavile's relative excellence in this metagame, so all I'll say is that it is quickly becoming a fantastic mon and is far and away the best UUBL mon in the tier (though come next month it won't be UUBL anymore since it certainly has the usage to become a proper OU mon). It appreciates Torn-T, Garchomp, and Lando-T being top-tier threats and can deal with Dragapult nicely as well.

:zeraora: A- --> Higher: Agree (probably A?)

Zeraora is one of the best pivots in the meta and is one of a very tiny list of threats that naturally outpaces Dragapult, which it can KO with Knock Off quite easily once it's weakened. In a metagame dominated by a handful of phenomenal Ground-types this thing still finds plenty of room to throw around its excellent attacks, pivot around, and Toxic those Ground-types and thus cripple them long-term. Zeraora may be one of UU's best right now but it's pretty damn close to becoming one of OU's best (albeit not as high up on that list whatsoever) as well, and I think a rise is warranted as a result.

:tapu_lele: A- --> A: Strongly Agree

Amazing breaker. Specs is hard to switch in against and Twisted Spoon is another great set that can bluff Specs but flex Lele's amazing coverage a bit better. Specs is honestly such a good breaker right now that I firmly believe it deserves a rise.

:slowking-galar: A- --> B+: Strongly Disagree

No, no, no. This thing absolutely doesn't deserve to drop. Yes, its usage and splashability aren't what they used to be in the Magearna meta, but it's still a great, not-so-passive check to a ton of special attackers and it's a lot more free to flex its incredible movepool to blank specific threats with its AV set. I also think NP and Calm Mind (specifically NP) are unbelievably strong against defensive teams, but y'all aren't ready for that conversation yet.

:scizor: B+ --> A- or even A: Strongly Agree

Another mon that has been seeing a ton of success in SPL lately, boasting a high 26% usage and a solid 60% winrate in Week 9. It's a premiere Rillaboom check with a great defensive typing for this metagame and it's an offensive powerhouse as well. Scizor is pretty quickly catching on as a legitimate OU threat and it should rise as a result of its tournament success.

:tangrowth: B+ --> A-: Disagree

I don't believe Tangrowth is actually bad, but I don't think it's good enough in this metagame to be compared to stuff in the A-ranks and IMO it could probably even drop. It hates Torn and Tran usage being so high although neither can switch in against it and it doesn't appreciate being bricked so hard by Kyurem either.

:volcarona: B --> B+ or even A-: Agree

The Meta Moth once again benefits from some recent metagame trends and is an offensive behemoth that is pretty tough to take down all the same. I think it most certainly deserves a rise but I think even a jump to A- is reasonable enough considering how good it is nowadays.

:bisharp: B- --> B: Agree

Excellent mon that gives specific HO teams a lot of defensive utility by virtue of its good defensive typing while being an absolute bee-with-an-itch to switch in against. Defiant existing is great considering Lando-T's dominance right now, too.

:magnezone: B --> B+: Strongly Agree

Magnezone may be a shadow of its former self, but it's still fantastic at trapping a select few threats that give excellent mons like Rillaboom a hell of a lot of issues. If these threats are to rise--and they are, I would argue--then Magnezone should rise a bit as well due to its ability to support these threats unlike anything else.

:urshifu: B- --> B+: Agree

It's been seeing a decent amount of success in SPL lately and it appreciates plenty of metagame trends. It's not as good a breaker as its banned Single-Strike forme, but it's still an excellent mon right now that has more than established itself as a threat that isn't confined to niche playstyles like Rain.

:regieleki: B- --> C: Strongly Agree

Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to this shitmon being dropped to C- or even unranked altogether. I think this mon is utter trash as a Screens setter and that Grimmsnarl and Koko are much, much better in this role. I like messing around with Specs on the ladder with some Ground-type lures like Shuca+Ice Beam Glowking, but this isn't even me trying to pretend that offensive Regieleki isn't a piece of shit that shouldn't be used on a serious team.

:blaziken: B- --> C+: Agree


Ehh... I don't think it's very good, honestly. It's a hell of a threat under the right conditions but it's generally not good outside of specific types of HO teams and is still a massive matchup-fishing mon on those HOs and can be complete dead weight quite frequently. I think anything lower than C+ is a bit of a stretch though.
 
First post here, let me know how I do. But these are a few thoughts I have:

1616647513904.png
A+->S: Not sure yet
I hate to take this stance, but I don't think this thing has been taken to its limit yet. STAB Hurricane is extremely threatening to the tier right now, and it has almost a guaranteed Knock Off and U-Turn, meaning it always makes some progress. Nasty Plot variants allow it to break with the combination of Hurricane, Focus Blast, and Heat Wave, while Pivot sets are still great at Defogging and with Regenerator it normally last throughout the match. I think the things holding it back from being S are Tapu Koko and Hurricane's accuracy. Koko has seen a major rise in usage recently, no doubt to help teams take this thing on. It resist Hurricane, has to bulk to switch in more than once, and can KO in return easily. And if Hurricane misses on the wrong turn, well that can often mean game.

1616648361963.png
A+->S/S-: Disagree
This is my all-time favorite mon, but it has a very similar problem to Tornadus-T: RNG. Yeah getting 4-5 hits on Scale Shot often means you can win the game right then and there, but getting two hits (which feels incredibly more common), often means you lose it right there too. And that's on top of one of the worst moves ever created, Stone Edge, because we all know what it's like trying to rely on that move. Add on how many teams have Lando, Corv, Clefable, and Rillaboom, its just held in check. I think A+ is the perfect placement for it, as it's clearly a metagame staple and one of the best mons in the tier with its role compression, different available sets, and sweeping and/or breaking potential, but it is far from overpowered.

1616646318458.png
A->S-: Agree
I think this is the second best mon in the tier right now. It can run a multitude of sets at the highest level. Specs is extremely difficult to switch into, even with a Mandibuzz, and Ghost STABs are so easy to spam. Heavy Duty Boots allow it to be a great pivot, and most switch-ins do not appreciate being hit with Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp, and after the first time they probably cannot switch back in due to Hex. Dragon Dance catches a lot of switches expecting specs and +1 Dragon Darts is extremely threatening. Zeraora, Mandibuzz, and Choice-scarfed revenge killers are just about the only thing holding it back from blowing up most builds right now.

1616646563430.png
A+->S: Disagree
Do not get me wrong, this thing is great, but often I feel it gets in its own way of being S. Magma Storms 70 accuracy makes it inconsistent and its low PP means you only get so many chances a game to trap. The prevalence of Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Nidoking means there are usually a Ground type waiting to KO it, and Slowking (without Taunt), can hit it with Scald, and get out with Teleport, wasting Magma Storms chances to trap something important and probably taking damage too. Yes, Heatran can Toxic it, but often times I find myself willing to take that trade. It also gets threatened by Urshifu-R, who I will talk about later, which I think as time goes on will see more and more usage. Getting Knocked Off by many of the things it switches into, such as Ferro, also is extremely crippling to it.

1616646876559.png
A->A+: Agree
I am not really sure why this thing wasn't A+ in the first place. Its probably my least favorite mon to go up against right now. Banded Grassy Glide is always a threat and often means your sweeper can't get more than one kill because if they don't OHKO the first mon, they take a hit and then will probably be in Glide's range because it is just so powerful. Swords Dance becomes a crazy sweeper and without a Corviknight or the rare Skarmory, you're probably going to lose too many mons trying to take this thing out for you to have a chance. Grassy Terrain also is an incredible form of support, doubling passive recovery every turn and protecting things like Heatran and Toxapex from Earthquakes, allowing them to get a hit in, recover, lay hazards, or haze.

1616647245853.png
A->A+:Agree
A large part of this is the above mentioned Rillaboom, but it's just a great physical wall in general. It can help stop Garchomp, Urshifu-R, Excadrill, Dragonite, and possibily most important, Kartana. Rocky Helmet is a perfect item for it, and Pressure can offer another win condition. It provides great team support with Defog and U-Turn, and if a team isn't expecting it, set-up sets can be extremely threatening. Body Press really helps it match-up against teams with Heatran, Melmetal, and Ferrothorn. Overall, I think it is the premier physical wall in the tier right now.

1616647750949.png
B+->A-: Agree
I think this could be the most underrated mon in the tier right now. With Multiscale and Heavy Duty Boots, coupled with its already impressive natural bulk, it can easily find an opportunity to set up. And I think people forget how powerful this thing is, as with a positive nature and DD, it hits like an absolute nuke. This things major flaw as a sweeper is its severe case of 4MSS. It often wants to run DD and Roost, limiting its the spots it wants to fit Dual Wingbeat, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, and more to just 2, meaning it often is hard walled by the pokemon it chose to not cover. It is also a very capable support mon, with Defog, Roost, and Thunder Wave being great and keeping it alive while also helping a teammate make progress. Its most common set is hard-walled by Corv, the rise of Lele really threatens it, and even with a boost it is still slower than many of the offensive mons in the tier, meaning it can still be revenge killed, or at least threatened out.

1616647996385.png
B-->B+: Agree
Why is all the way down in B- lol? I have been using this thing a ton, and have found Urshifu with Protective Pads is a great mon many teams are not prepared for. Either with Bulk Up or just with 4 attacking moves, it very often forces a sack. Many players switch in mons like Ferrothorn or RH Corv or Pex to try to chip it down, only to find they took a hit and then got U-Turned out on. Water/Fighting is a good STAB combo, and Surging Strikes is a move capable of dealing massive damage and dealing with defense boosting set-up mons, or mons coming in with Intimidate, meaning it is one of the best matchups against the omnipresent Landorus-T, as it's faster than base Lando, has the bulk to take a EQ, and always KOs with Strikes. This thing is not just limited to Rain teams, and needs to be used more on bulky offense and balance builds.

1616648920128.png
C+->B-: Agree
This one will be a short reasoning, because I think it is a very limited pokemon in today's metagame, but Ice/Ground STAB+Rocks should not be overlooked. With Band or Life Orb, it can be a very powerful breaker, and STAB Ice Shard can save you against many of the common threats often seen, such as Lando, Chomp, and Pult. But Corv laughs it off and it is slow enough that most offensive mons can dunk on it.
 
Guys, I'm a newbie in Pokemon Showdown. I just want to know how to use your team that was built in
Teambuilder. I'm not really sure if this reply can be posted in the forums, but I really want to battle at the
Pokemon Showcase with my team. So if you have any idea, please reply.



- kentot1216
 

Katy

I'd walk thru fire for you, just let me adore you!
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Guys, I'm a newbie in Pokemon Showdown. I just want to know how to use your team that was built in
Teambuilder. I'm not really sure if this reply can be posted in the forums, but I really want to battle at the
Pokemon Showcase with my team. So if you have any idea, please reply.
- kentot1216

Hello Kentot, for teamrates and team showcases the best place to go for is the RMT subforum here, which can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/rate-my-team.52/
if you have any questions about sample teams, etc you can ask those questions here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3656259/ for any other question i would recommend writing the particular person a pm to ask about the purpose of their teams. :)
 
to B- or B

C+ is way too low for it imo. It's another Great Balance Breaker in the current meta and Zapdos losing usage heavily benefits it, Sure Urshifu-R gives it competition in this role but I think being able to check Rillaboom and a slightly higher Speed tier that outspeeds it and Hydreigon alongside a STAB Brave Bird that destroys walls that otherwise give the Sea Bear trouble like Tangrowth are enough to justify its use in the meta.

If you're all saying Urshifu-R should rise because of Metagame trends and shifts, So should this thing.

Other Noms I agree with:

to S: Agree

This is basically Spectrier's revenge on the tier for getting banned. Enough said.

to A: Agree

to A-: Agree

to B+: Agree

to B+: Agree

to B+: Agree
 
Nominating :terrakion: from C+ to B/B+

This thing is such an effective breaker right now. Its STABs are so difficult to switch into by themselves and with a coverage move or two its nearly impossible to deal with defensively (neither Shuckle or Shedinja will save you). The SD set at +2 2HKOes the entire meta while the Banded set puts immediate pressure on the opposing team, though it needs a bit of prediction. I've made an extensive post about it here so I won't repeat myself any more. Suffice it to say that it has incredible power to wreck defensive teams while still packing enough speed and bulk to tackle more offensive builds. Also, FuturePort make this thing an absolute monster.

Noms I agree/disagree with
:urshifu-rapid-strike: to B Agree (I feel that B+ might be a bit of a stretch tho)
:dragapult: to A+/S Strongly Agree (S honestly seems like a better spot for me due to the insane versatility and splashability this thing has)
:rillaboom: to A+ Strongly Agree
:weavile: to B+ Agree
:slowking-galar: to B+ Disagree
:blaziken: to C+/C Agree (probably C)
:kingdra: to C Strongly Agree
:tapu-koko: to A+ Disagree
:corviknight: to A+ Agree
:tapu-fini: to B+ Strongly Agree
:hydreigon: to B+ Strongly Disagree
:regieleki: to (somewhere much lower) Strongly Agree (C/C- seems right)
:tapu-lele: to A Strongly Agree
:zeraora: to A Agree (A+ is probably a stretch for me)
:tangrowth: to A- Agree
:volcarona: to B+/A- Agree
:landorus-therian: to A+ Strongly Disagree
:dragonite: to A- Agree
 
A<S-
1616780824718.png

Dragapult is incredibly fucking good rn. The combination of Specs, WOW, and DD makes it nearly impeccable. With the recent bans with Ursh, Spec, Cind, and Ace, it's definitely safe the say this thing is a lot better and is free of supression. I also want to mention how it's too abilities, in Infiltrator and Clear Body are also just so helpful. Being able to violate sub/screens in a sort of HO based meta or avoiding webs/intimidate can come in hand a lot. Overall this mon just get's better and better more and more. I consider to be the one of the best pokemon in OU if not simply the best. Pult is just really good rn, and as a breaker/sweeper/pivot, it can just do all of those roles really capably.

1616780842703.png

B<A
Right now, this meta needs Weavile imo. With some of the top 5 threats including Pult, Rilla, Torn, Tran, Lando/Chomp, Weavile is very handy at taking these on. Now in terms of this mon's abilities as a breaker, it's probably 9/10. Weavile is a very strong and fast breaker with two very important stabs. Knock Off in this meta is important as we see the trend of Ghost and Psychics srising following after the recent bans, and in general is a great way to annoy bulkier mons and choiced mons. And Ice is a very anti-meta typing that gives it great strong offensive move. When using weavile or even going against it, it even seems to almost always at least pick up 2 kills just with the adequate coverage to touch most with stabs + Low Kick. Not to mention giving it a move to pressure Ferrothorn, and OHKO Tran is incredible. Future Sight with Weavile becomes scary as it pressures Pex and Fini to an extent. and overall teams are starting to find a hard time checking it due to this. All in All Weavile is way too underranked imo, and I think this thing is on a wave of exploiting teams, and creating viable cores, as well as being able to pressure most of the Top 5 threats in the metagame.

1616780874059.png

A-<A+
Three words: Thing is insane. I just wanna say that it has no counters reliably. Aegislash, Corviknight, and Slowking sure but that's quite about it. One has no recovery and one has to force max spdef pretty much all the time. Bulkier cores are feared of taking a Terrain boosted hit. Not to mention it is able to reverse terrains with Rillaboom and take that on as well. In general Tapu Lele is very threatening and forces many switches to try to pivot in to one of it's moves. If the opponent get's it wrong either a huge boost in momentum or a mon gone. Simple. Specs Lele is very strong breaker and throughout the flow of the metagame trends more and more as a strong breaker capable of ruining bulky cores, and forcing lot's of switches. Lele is insane.
 
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Here are some of my thoughts

887.png
to A+/S strongly Agree (super versatile and splashable, so good at dealing with offense teams)
812.png
to A+ strongly Agree (amazing breaker with sd and band, also helps gives mons some recovery)
645-t.png
to A+ strongly Agree (I mainly say this because its super predictable and a lot of teams can deal with landorus-therian at times, also super easy to chip, prob the most easiest mon to chip, speed tier isnt that great imo, and struggles to get up rocks vs mons like corv, still good but not S imo)
807.png
: to A agree (this mon is a amazing pivot/wallbreaker and its super good at its job, can use toxic/knock off to cripple grounds and has so much success in spl, this def deserves a raise imo)
785 (1).png
: to A+ not sure (not sure abt this i think tapu koko is the best tapu imo, but i dont think its as good as rillaboom, still awesome but im just unsure abt this)
641-t.png
to S strongly disagree (like i said w my last post, its inconsistent a lot and has to deal w the amount of fast electric types rising up and weavile)
149.png
to A- agree (defensive set is just good imo checks a lot of threats and is a counter to heatran (if ur running heal bell) dd is also a good sweeper on ho)
786.png
: to A strongly agree (idk why this is in A- this mon is sooooo good at wallbreaking shit, legit its so terrifying to face, one of OUs best wallbreakers by far)
823.png
to A+ strongly agree (corv walls legit half of ou mons, its typing and access to pressure,uturn makes it soo good at being a defensive mon and avoids passiveness, give this mon a raise its so fucking good)
465.png
to A- or maybe A strongly agree (you cannot tell me that this is B+, this should prob be A imo, its so good at walling mons like rillaboom,kart,crawdaunt,urshifurapid,barra,swampert,chomp,landot, although it hates toxic, this mon is super good at what it does, has access to knock+stunspore+sleeppowder, also can make use of av. This mon is so good, please give it a raise)
461.png
to A- agree (good cleaner/wallbreaker super scary with dark+ice stab, has a lot of success in spl, def deserves a raise imo)
635.png
to B+ strongly disagree (ok who tf thought this was a great idea, absolutely not)
 
A<S-
View attachment 326348
A-<A+
Three words: Thing is insane. I just wanna say that it has no counters reliably. Aegislash, Corviknight, and Slowking sure but that's quite about it. One has no recovery and one has to force max spdef pretty much all the time. Bulkier cores are feared of taking a Terrain boosted hit. Not to mention it is able to reverse terrains with Rillaboom and take that on as well. In general Tapu Lele is very threatening and forces many switches to try to pivot in to one of it's moves. If the opponent get's it wrong either a huge boost in momentum or a mon gone. Simple. Specs Lele is very strong breaker and throughout the flow of the metagame trends more and more as a strong breaker capable of ruining bulky cores, and forcing lot's of switches. Lele is insane.
Agreed. I want to add that if you really want to break past Corvi or Slowking Tbolt is an option to utterly destroy them. Usually its not worth it due to the amount of coverage Focus Miss offers (not to mention you're hard walled by Ferrothorn) but Tbolt can still be ran to break two of Lele's three best counters (and they'll never see it coming so there's a really good chance that you'll actually get the kill). And like you said Aegi is a huge chip magnet.

I agree with your other noms too.
 
:volcarona: Volcarona at B is actually a crime btw. This has nothing to do with Cinderace leaving or not I definitely think this mon is deserving of B+ or even A-. Sure, it doesn't have HP ground to get past Heatran or Z-Bug to plow through special walls, but Volcarona now has HDB which gives it insane longevity allowing it to potenitally set up more than once to gradually weaken the enemy team. At the end of the day Volcarona is Volcarona it will always be one of the best Pokemon at matchup fishing any team that doesn't have a solid counter like Heatran/Blissey/Dragonite and even those could be lured/weakened for Volcarona to sweep.

:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-T is definitely deserving of S rank, I've always thought so. He's so versatile and is literally impossible to wear down due to Regen + HDB. Knock Off is insanely good right now and Torn-t does it best.

Personally I've been running

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave

Don't get me wrong, this is a huge reduction in damage output, but it's a reduction in potential damage. We all know how Hurricane misses like 50% of the time. On the other hand, from my experience Air Slash misses like once per game max, and it still does an insane amount of damage for a 75 BP move.

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 250-295 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 262-310 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 237-280 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Most of these woulda been OHKOs or at least 90% with Hurricane, but the decrease in damage is something I'll take for the consistency of Air Slash. I'd rather know for sure that I'm going to do ~75% to Garchomp then know that 75% of the time I OHKO Garchomp. Also, another set I've been using is:

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Defog
- Heat Wave / Focus Blast

This is kind of doing two things at one time, I will do this a lot of time when I actually don't want Knock Off on a defensive Torn-T set, usually because I'm running a strong Knock Off user like Bisharp or Weavile who really need the extra BP. Of course, since this set really needs damage I use Hurricane > Air Slash, so it still hits hard, 75% of the time. Of course, having no U-turn/momentum on Pivot set kinda sucks, but I think the set has merit in being Jack-of-All-Trades but Master-of-None kind of thing.


Also, if people are still conflicted on some mons like Dragapult/Torn-T or even Garchomp being S, I think having an S- rank would be a good idea as some people might have already alluded to. Garchomp / Dragapult / Torn-T are definitely 100% on a different league than most of the A+
 
:volcarona: Volcarona at B is actually a crime btw. This has nothing to do with Cinderace leaving or not I definitely think this mon is deserving of B+ or even A-. Sure, it doesn't have HP ground to get past Heatran or Z-Bug to plow through special walls, but Volcarona now has HDB which gives it insane longevity allowing it to potenitally set up more than once to gradually weaken the enemy team. At the end of the day Volcarona is Volcarona it will always be one of the best Pokemon at matchup fishing any team that doesn't have a solid counter like Heatran/Blissey/Dragonite and even those could be lured/weakened for Volcarona to sweep.

:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-T is definitely deserving of S rank, I've always thought so. He's so versatile and is literally impossible to wear down due to Regen + HDB. Knock Off is insanely good right now and Torn-t does it best.

Personally I've been running

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave

Don't get me wrong, this is a huge reduction in damage output, but it's a reduction in potential damage. We all know how Hurricane misses like 50% of the time. On the other hand, from my experience Air Slash misses like once per game max, and it still does an insane amount of damage for a 75 BP move.

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 250-295 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 262-310 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 237-280 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Most of these woulda been OHKOs or at least 90% with Hurricane, but the decrease in damage is something I'll take for the consistency of Air Slash. I'd rather know for sure that I'm going to do ~75% to Garchomp then know that 75% of the time I OHKO Garchomp. Also, another set I've been using is:

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Defog
- Heat Wave / Focus Blast

This is kind of doing two things at one time, I will do this a lot of time when I actually don't want Knock Off on a defensive Torn-T set, usually because I'm running a strong Knock Off user like Bisharp or Weavile who really need the extra BP. Of course, since this set really needs damage I use Hurricane > Air Slash, so it still hits hard, 75% of the time. Of course, having no U-turn/momentum on Pivot set kinda sucks, but I think the set has merit in being Jack-of-All-Trades but Master-of-None kind of thing.


Also, if people are still conflicted on some mons like Dragapult/Torn-T or even Garchomp being S, I think having an S- rank would be a good idea as some people might have already alluded to. Garchomp / Dragapult / Torn-T are definitely 100% on a different league than most of the A+
You are better off running hurricane because it has more damage output over time once accuracy is taken into account.

Average bp for hurricane = 110×0.7 = 0.77
Average bp for air slash = 75×0.95 = 0.7125
 
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TailGlowVM

Don't Use That, Use This!
is a Pre-Contributor
:mantine: C- to UR: What niche does this have over the many, many other defensive Water-types available? It's a Heatran check that gets hit by Toxic and worn down by Magma Storm, it walls Volcarona but that can be done by Heatran and Dragonite, it hard-walls Urshifu-R but so do Slowbro and Toxapex, Tornadus-T just Knocks it, and Dragapult uses it as a free opportunity to U-turn into something dangerous. It also lacks the unique utility of other options like FuturePort or Toxic Spikes, instead only having Defog which far better Pokemon like Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Corviknight and Mandibuzz can use.
 
You are better off running hurricane because it has more damage output over time once accuracy is taken into account.

Average bp for hurricane = 110×0.7 = 0.77
Average bp for air slash = 75×0.95 = 0.7125
The corrected damage output isn't the whole story. As an extreme example, a move with 8000 base power but a 1% chance of hitting would be the better move according to your calculation, but in practice would be terrible. I agree that Hurricane is almost always better here, especially because you have to factor in the confusion chance, but reliability is extremely important.

Edit: HydreigonTheChild I think we're saying pretty much the same thing, which is that there is an element to the usability of a move that can't be captured in its average damage over time. Just as reliability is important, so is securing crucial KOs. I'm just saying it's not as black and white as Niftyyyy was painting it.
 
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Then that is plain common sense, that is the most unreliable thing i heard, and the closest to an ohko move I have heard. That example is straight up terrible, hurricane is not inconsistent asf, 70% acc is bad, but its not terrible to what you are exaggerating it. Yes hurricane is better, but you are taking into account that the extra power and the confusion chance comes with a drawback of 70% acc. Air slash is much weaker and can't pick up crucial KO's such as

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 366-432 (102.5 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 250-295 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see the numbers are very huge, its just better to go hurricane and risk the chance, instead of never taking it and regretting it later
 
:slurpuff: UR to C-

I'd like to talk about this little precious meringue cookie, because in my opinion it serves as my favorite sticky webs setter in the current meta.
Previously I wouldn't of even thought of using Slurpuff with Magearna and Cinderace running rampant, it would just end up as an easy switch to set-up on Mag, but with them gone this thing has been finding a way on so many of my hyper offense teams.


I'm gonna post some pros and cons of using this vs Ribombee and Shuckle which are currently the well used Webs setters.

:Ribombee:
Pros:
- Great base speed, can creep a lot of the current meta, including things it threatens like the Lati twins and Garchomp.
- Status in the form of Stun Spore, despite being less reliable than T-Wave, can still come in handy.
- Shield Dust makes it so burns off unlikely hits from fire moves that can ruin the focus sash just don't happen.

Cons:
- Does absolutely nothing to Ferrothorn. Ribombee has to either set up webs and let Ferro do what it wants, or swap to a threat and get set up on anyway.
-Bug typing is not a great type altogether as it covers neither of Fairy's weaknesses, but also adds a stealth rock weakness costing you 25% of your health if you ever decide to swap back in.

:Shuckle:
Pros:
- Bulkiest of the three, can squish a few hits and set up it's hazards.
- Stealth Rock + Sticky Webs means it allows teammates to put on massive pressure later in the match.

Cons:
- 0 Offense pressure whatsoever. Shuckle could easily be used to setup on with opposing pokemon, and Shuckle can at most toxic, god pray that set-up mon doesn't have substitute.
- No pivoting capabilities means Shuckle is usually a suicide lead, and has to get killed by the opponent to get in something safely.
- Literally the slowest pokemon in the game tied with Pyukumuku and Munchlax.

:Slurpuff:
Pros:
- FLAMETHROWER. Access to flamethrower on a webs setter is a god send. No more worrying about Ferrothorn as Slurpuff 2HKO's max Sp. D Ferro. (Slurpuff is actually the only webs setter with a fire move period!)
- Unburden lets Focus Sash serve a double purpose, letting Slurpuff set up it's webs, then use that unburden speed to outspeed everything but +0 Regieleki, however if Regieleki were to come in after Webs are set up, Slurpuff actually still outspeeds!
- Endeavor lets Slurpuff make one final attempt at disabling an opposing pokemon, bringing them down to 1 HP after Focus Sash pops, and unless you bring someone with a priority move, Slurpuff is getting that move off.

Cons:
- Does not have access to Moonblast, instead has to make due with Dazzling Gleam, which can still 2HKO the Latis and Garchomp, but missing out on possible Sp. A drops and a little extra damage kinda sucks.
- Only pivoting move is Misty Explosion, which can work to have more control over your switch than Shuckle, but it still means that Slurpuff has to die to get that switch.


Im leaving out a few cons such as Urshifu-R being able to go through Focus Sash with it's multi-hit move because Urshifu also bops shuckle, meaning only Ribombee benefits, but still takes over half from Aqua Jet or the fact that all three of them lose to Heatran instantly.

Here's the set I've been using as of late if anyone wants to give it a shot:


Slurpuff @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Endeavor
- Dazzling Gleam / Misty Explosion
- Flamethrower


Mild nature lowers it's defense allowing some things that couldn't pop it's sash before to be able to now.
Other moves I could see being semi-viable include: Magic Coat, Yawn, Toxic, Heal Bell, and Wish.

252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 212-252 (60.2 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 248-294 (69.4 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If Multiscale is down)
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 272-324 (85.8 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 230-272 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 768-908 (296.5 - 350.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 230-272 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Banded)
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


My point being that Slurpuff may not actually be the best overall, but I believe it at least deserves a mention on the list because of some of the things that can be pulled off.
 
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:slurpuff: UR to C-

I'd like to talk about this little precious meringue cookie, because in my opinion it serves as my favorite sticky webs setter in the current meta.
Previously I wouldn't of even thought of using Slurpuff with Magearna and Cinderace running rampant, it would just end up as an easy switch to set-up on Mag, but with them gone this thing has been finding a way on so many of my hyper offense teams.


I'm gonna post some pros and cons of using this vs Ribombee and Shuckle which are currently the well used Webs setters.

:Ribombee:
Pros:
- Great base speed, can creep a lot of the current meta, including things it threatens like the Lati twins and Garchomp.
- Status in the form of Stun Spore, despite being less reliable than T-Wave, can still come in handy.
- Shield Dust makes it so burns off unlikely hits from fire moves can ruin the focus sash.

Cons:
- Does absolutely nothing to Ferrothorn. Ribombee has to either set up webs and let Ferro do what it wants, or swap to a threat and get set up on anyway.
-Bug typing is not a great type altogether as it covers neither of Fairy's weaknesses, but also adds a stealth rock weakness costing you 25% of your health if you ever decide to swap back in.

:Shuckle:
Pros:
- Bulkiest of the three, can squish a few hits and set up it's hazards.
- Stealth Rock + Sticky Webs means it allows teammates to put on massive pressure later in the match.

Cons:
- 0 Offense pressure whatsoever. Shuckle could easily be used to setup on with opposing pokemon, and Shuckle can at most toxic, god pray that set-up mon doesn't have substitute.
- No pivoting capabilities means Shuckle is usually a suicide lead, and has to get killed by the opponent to get in something safely.
- Literally the slowest pokemon in the game tied with Pyukumuku and Munchlax.

:Slurpuff:
Pros:
- FLAMETHROWER. Access to flamethrower on a webs setter is a god send. No more worrying about Ferrothorn as Slurpuff 2HKO's max Sp. D Ferro. (Slurpuff is actually the only webs setter with a fire move period!)
- Unburden lets Focus Sash serve a double purpose, letting Slurpuff set up it's webs, then use that unburden speed to outspeed everything but +0 Regieleki, however if Regieleki were to come in after Webs are set up, Slurpuff actually still outspeeds!
- Endeavor lets Slurpuff make one final attempt at disabling an opposing pokemon, bringing them down to 1 HP after Focus Sash pops, and unless you bring someone with a priority move, Slurpuff is getting that move off.

Cons:
- Does not have access to Moonblast, instead has to make due with Dazzling Gleam, which can still 2HKO the Latis and Garchomp, but missing out on possible Sp. A drops and a little extra damage kinda sucks.
- Only pivoting move is Misty Explosion, which can work to have more control over your switch than Shuckle, but it still means that Slurpuff has to die to get that switch.


Im leaving out a few cons such as Urshifu-R being able to go through Focus Sash with it's multi-hit move because Urshifu kinda bops all 3 of them anyways, or the fact that all three of them lose to Heatran instantly.

Here's the set I've been using as of late if anyone wants to give it a shot:


Slurpuff @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Endeavor
- Dazzling Gleam / Misty Explosion
- Flamethrower


Mild nature lowers it's defense allowing some things that couldn't pop it's sash before to be able to now.
Other moves I could see being semi-viable include: Magic Coat, Yawn, Toxic, Heal Bell, and Wish.

252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 212-252 (60.2 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 248-294 (69.4 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If Multiscale is down)
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 272-324 (85.8 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 230-272 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 768-908 (296.5 - 350.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 230-272 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Banded)
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

My point being that Slurpuff may not actually be the best overall, but I believe it at least deserves a mention on the list because of some of the things that can be pulled off.
I am pretty sure that if you want a UR nom, you have to have replays showing that the mon is capable of doing something. Interesting nom tho. Don’t have to delete the post, just add some replays, you should be good.
 
:victini: B -> B+

Disagree
. Victini just has not been explored yet. Even though I adore him, he has no defined niche yet, which leaves him in a weird state right now. If someone can manage to define a niche for Vic, I may support B+, but as of now, I really can’t.
I've been actually playing around with him this weekend and i maybe i've been unusually lucky but he's playing like an A tier at least. Super versatile.

Give him boots and he's a super threatening pivot + v create and bolt strike give you high okho potential. Is fast enough to 2HKO tanks even after the first v create drops.

Scarf set is still an amazing revenge killer, it does what it needs to and a second V-create at non-scarf speed is a good tradeoff.

The really big one that i was just doing calcs on to double check is choice band. V-create has 20% more BP than Eruption, but :heatran: has 20% more (special) attack than :victini: has attack.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%)

Yeah the breaking power of FULL HP specs eruption on a base 100 speed.

I'd be really curious to know what other people think. I can share a couple of sets i tried below.

Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Toxic / Power-Up Punch / Future Sight

I'm going off of what i've been told that Future Sight uses the SpA of the mon that's switched in when it lands. I ran U-Turn + Doom Desire :jirachi: in the past and i really like the combo if you don't have a :slowbro: or :slowking: running it.
Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Trick / Zen Headbutt / Quick Attack
- U-turn

I'm not a huge fan of Zen Headbutt because i honestly can't think of a mon in the meta that will take more damage from Zen Headbutt than the first 2 moves. a neutral V-create will always do more than a 2X super effective Zen Headbutt
Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Trick / Final Gambit
- U-turn
Victini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare / Searing Shot
- Psychic
- Energy Ball / Thunderbolt
- U-turn

Can go modest instead. No Focus Blast because its just an illusion of fighting coverage. Searing Shot if you don't wanna risk the small miss chance on your main stab, with Victory Star i wouldn't recommend. I like Energy Ball more because people expect fire electric moves from :Victini:
Of course you could swap out U-turn if you wanna go Trick or a fourth special move.

To better respond to @BreakthrU89 's comment. I think he has a viable spot in OU because of his versatility which is especially highlighted by the boots set, he works really well coming in repeatedly and that's easy to do with all the pivoting prevalent this gen. He can break as hard as the likes of :dracovish: while bringing in great team support through U-turn, Toxic, Future Sight, Trick, etc. and he's not a frail mon with base 100 stats. I think he fits in perfectly with the pace of this metagame.

Also I love his ability, it gives him that extra bit of consistency.

Open for any suggestions or improvements.
 

TailGlowVM

Don't Use That, Use This!
is a Pre-Contributor
:regieleki: Strongly agree on B to UR.
This may be a controversial nomination - I originally thought it was when others proposed going this far, proposing C+ instead, but upon further reflection I believe it does nothing better than any other Pokemon in OU. This is a long nomination, but one I think is necessary if proposing such a big drop.

Firstly, I'm not going to pretend any offensive set is remotely viable, Finchinator stated a while ago that its ranking was solely for screens, and unlike literally any other Electric-type ranked, it has no coverage for the Ground-types or Zeraora that are on every serious team for non-Regieleki reasons. Even Rotom-H and Toxtricity are better at an offensive set than Regieleki. There's only one remotely viable option (with adjustments in EVs possible, but the point is the same):

Regieleki @ Light Clay
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin

Even in this role, Regieleki is generally outclassed by Tapu Koko, which is slower but still has a great base 130 Speed, has a more consistent pivoting move in U-turn, and can more consistently keep screens up with access to Taunt, which also blocks the hazards Regieleki's Rapid Spin removes. I suppose you could run Volt Switch if you want to surprise Dragapult, but then you can't hit Ground-types, and missing out on Explosion makes Regieleki outclassed by Tapu Koko. As Regieleki is reliant on Explosion to keep screens up, it can only set one consistently against Defoggers, whereas Koko can set two with Taunt lasting more than one turn. Explosion is a poor pivoting move in a meta with a premier Ghost-type like Dragapult too. Dragapult can threaten Regieleki's team with a Specs-boosted attack or cripple something with status, and it's faster than everything unboosted except Regieleki and Zeraora, and has Infiltrator to bypass screens. It's pretty much the public enemy #1 of screens hyper offense, and Regieleki compounds the weakness to it. This leaves two plausible things Regieleki does better than Tapu Koko:

1. Not set Electric Terrain, allowing the use of a Rillaboom + Hawlucha core on the team. (Even this is debatable as a niche IMO, as you can use Hawlucha without Rillaboom by giving it an Electric Seed instead, and Electric Terrain benefits teammates with Electric moves, whereas Regieleki is stuck with a functionally useless ability.)
2. Be faster than Zeraora and Choice Scarf users improving its matchup against them (yes, there's Dragapult, but it hits Regieleki through Light Screen thanks to Infiltrator, and Regieleki can't damage it at all, making Koko the winner here as it has U-turn to pivot out of it and is immune to Dragapult's strongest STAB move)

Both of these niches are done better by the other two viable screens setters in OU. The debatable #1 is done better by Alolan Ninetales which also helps the Dragapult matchup, being able to viably run a STAB move, and can utilise Encore and Hypnosis to pivot out. This may be an awkward form of free pivoting, but it theoretically allows Alolan Ninetales to do so against any Pokemon, rather than be blocked completely by Dragapult or other niche Ghost-types like Blacephalon, Gengar and Aegislash, as well as Damp Swampert, and aids setup by teammates. The typical disadvantage of Aurora Veil versus regular dual screens is the hail chip damage, but since one would have to be using Rillaboom to secure this niche, they would have Grassy Terrain to heal this damage. For proof, Alolan Ninetales has had more success than Regieleki in SPL, making its placement in C+ with Regieleki in B completely inaccurate.

#2 is done better by Grimmsnarl, as it has Prankster to set up at least one screen against anything except priority moves, which is the main unique thing Regieleki has that Tapu Koko does not, and also does more than that - it does far better against the omnipresent Dragapult than Regieleki with its typing - in fact, it may be the best check to it in the game, (probably more reliable than Bisharp against Specs as Flamethrower is often run on it) - and has access to Taunt, which is more consistent than Explosion at keeping screens for the reasons mentioned above. It also gets Prankster Thunder Wave for additional utility as an emergency check to speed-boosting sweepers, differentiating it from Tapu Koko and Regieleki.

The aforementioned Alolan Ninetales and Grimmsnarl are C+ and C rank respectively. As I believe them to do Regieleki's niches better than it can while offering more to the table on top, I think it is reasonable to unrank Regieleki, or put it at C absolute maximum.
 
:regieleki: Strongly agree on B to UR.
This may be a controversial nomination - I originally thought it was when others proposed going this far, proposing C+ instead, but upon further reflection I believe it does nothing better than any other Pokemon in OU. This is a long nomination, but one I think is necessary if proposing such a big drop.

Firstly, I'm not going to pretend any offensive set is remotely viable, Finchinator stated a while ago that its ranking was solely for screens, and unlike literally any other Electric-type ranked, it has no coverage for the Ground-types or Zeraora that are on every serious team for non-Regieleki reasons. Even Rotom-H and Toxtricity are better at an offensive set than Regieleki. There's only one remotely viable option (with adjustments in EVs possible, but the point is the same):

Regieleki @ Light Clay
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin

Even in this role, Regieleki is generally outclassed by Tapu Koko, which is slower but still has a great base 130 Speed, has a more consistent pivoting move in U-turn, and can more consistently keep screens up with access to Taunt, which also blocks the hazards Regieleki's Rapid Spin removes. I suppose you could run Volt Switch if you want to surprise Dragapult, but then you can't hit Ground-types, and missing out on Explosion makes Regieleki outclassed by Tapu Koko. As Regieleki is reliant on Explosion to keep screens up, it can only set one consistently against Defoggers, whereas Koko can set two with Taunt lasting more than one turn. Explosion is a poor pivoting move in a meta with a premier Ghost-type like Dragapult too. Dragapult can threaten Regieleki's team with a Specs-boosted attack or cripple something with status, and it's faster than everything unboosted except Regieleki and Zeraora, and has Infiltrator to bypass screens. It's pretty much the public enemy #1 of screens hyper offense, and Regieleki compounds the weakness to it. This leaves two plausible things Regieleki does better than Tapu Koko:

1. Not set Electric Terrain, allowing the use of a Rillaboom + Hawlucha core on the team. (Even this is debatable as a niche IMO, as you can use Hawlucha without Rillaboom by giving it an Electric Seed instead, and Electric Terrain benefits teammates with Electric moves, whereas Regieleki is stuck with a functionally useless ability.)
2. Be faster than Zeraora and Choice Scarf users improving its matchup against them (yes, there's Dragapult, but it hits Regieleki through Light Screen thanks to Infiltrator, and Regieleki can't damage it at all, making Koko the winner here as it has U-turn to pivot out of it and is immune to Dragapult's strongest STAB move)

Both of these niches are done better by the other two viable screens setters in OU. The debatable #1 is done better by Alolan Ninetales which also helps the Dragapult matchup, being able to viably run a STAB move, and can utilise Encore and Hypnosis to pivot out. This may be an awkward form of free pivoting, but it theoretically allows Alolan Ninetales to do so against any Pokemon, rather than be blocked completely by Dragapult or other niche Ghost-types like Blacephalon, Gengar and Aegislash, as well as Damp Swampert, and aids setup by teammates. The typical disadvantage of Aurora Veil versus regular dual screens is the hail chip damage, but since one would have to be using Rillaboom to secure this niche, they would have Grassy Terrain to heal this damage. For proof, Alolan Ninetales has had more success than Regieleki in SPL, making its placement in C+ with Regieleki in B completely inaccurate.

#2 is done better by Grimmsnarl, as it has Prankster to set up at least one screen against anything except priority moves, which is the main unique thing Regieleki has that Tapu Koko does not, and also does more than that - it does far better against the omnipresent Dragapult than Regieleki with its typing - in fact, it may be the best check to it in the game, (probably more reliable than Bisharp against Specs as Flamethrower is often run on it) - and has access to Taunt, which is more consistent than Explosion at keeping screens for the reasons mentioned above. It also gets Prankster Thunder Wave for additional utility as an emergency check to speed-boosting sweepers, differentiating it from Tapu Koko and Regieleki.

The aforementioned Alolan Ninetales and Grimmsnarl are C+ and C rank respectively. As I believe them to do Regieleki's niches better than it can while offering more to the table on top, I think it is reasonable to unrank Regieleki, or put it at C absolute maximum.
Agreed, if u are gonna bother using it, use ring target +specs, outside of that niche no worth using it. If unknown comes back=hidden power this thing will have a big chance to go Ubers but currently is mon that needs heavy support to do something, screeners we have a lot, life Orb phys, I guess u can use it but yea. Ground types are too good to not use it, Zeraora is rising. In conclusion it is fun to use for specialize teams or YT videos but is the type of mon that I would hardly consider for an important battle
 

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