Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Red Raven]

Gonna make some noms

Landorus-Therian
S -> A+/A
Landorus-T doesn't feel very broken or restrictive on teambuilding rn. once you've slapped on ice beam/ice punch on to something you can be confident that this guy is under control. lando-T w/o sash or yache berry may not even get to set rocks due to mamoswine/weavile using ice shard.
Chomp has these problems as well, but chomp has excellent speed whereas lando-T has mediocre speed. yes it has frail bulk and eh speed but gets great atk and immunites to flying and ground. A+/A material? Certainly. S material? Ehhhhhh... no.

View attachment 349545
Charizard
C- -> UR
Wtf is this thing DOING on the ranks? I litteraly never see it and the one archetype it can fit on, sun teams, is outclassed by rain archetypes. Litteraly just a worse barraskewda which isn't the worst mon ever but when barra and rain beat both charizard and sun respectivley i dont thiink zard deserves to be ranked.

View attachment 349554
Barraskewda
B- -> at least B+
Speaking of barraskewda, the thing is so cracked rn on rain. Ik it only fits on rain but when you destroy everything on rain thats material thats clearly too good for B-. if a politoed/peliper is alive when barra CC's your ttar out (if you have one) prepare to say goodbye.


View attachment 349589
Pelliper
B- -> B+/A-
Back to talking about barra, barraskewda has difficulty reaching its full potential without this boi. (kingdra and semistoad do as well btw)
But when barraskewda enters the field in the rain, theres gonna be alot of destruction brought. (kingdra/semistoad too, albeit to a lesser extent)

View attachment 349590
Tornadus-T
A -> A+/S
This thing has 2 ways it can go, both of which it does quite well. one is as a defog pivot knocker (tho I would suggest thundurus for that lol), and the one that thundurus is worse at, Nasty plot attacker that can to oodles of damage. Excellent material if you ask me.

Lando is not exactly a threat and it isn't supposed to be. I do think that Lando is underwhelming this generation but that's not the point. S ranked pokemon are supposed to be those that are easy to slap on teams, can run one or multiple sets and run them effectively, have little to no opportunity costs, and are way above their competition. Lando fits all of these criteria nicely. The only one that can give Lando a run for its money is Garchomp and they're both use very differently. Lando is almost always a utility mon while Garchomp is mainly a contact punisher or a wall breaker / sweeper, or both

Both Pelipper and Barraskewda are fine where they are. Yes, rain pokemon are threatening under rain but that's the keyword 'under rain'. Rain doesn't exactly have that good of a place since Rillaboom is common and Kyurem eats rain alive. That's not even mentioning that rain isn't that common because of how restrictive it is

Tornadus A+ is probably fine but definitely not S rank. Using it as a main wall breaker is not a good idea because of hurricane's accuracy and you do not want to rely on a 70% as your main method of breaking through teams. Even if you're not using offensive Torn it still has issues in checking the things it's supposed to check because of hurricane

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

Lando is not exactly a threat and it isn't supposed to be. I do think that Lando is underwhelming this generation but that's not the point. S ranked pokemon are supposed to be those that are easy to slap on teams, can run one or multiple sets and run them effectively, have little to no opportunity costs, and are way above their competition. Lando fits all of these criteria nicely. The only one that can give Lando a run for its money is Garchomp and they're both use very differently. Lando is almost always a utility mon while Garchomp is mainly a contact punisher or a wall breaker / sweeper, or both

Both Pelipper and Barraskewda are fine where they are. Yes, rain pokemon are threatening under rain but that's the keyword 'under rain'. Rain doesn't exactly have that good of a place since Rillaboom is common and Kyurem eats rain alive. That's not even mentioning that rain isn't that common because of how restrictive it is

Tornadus A+ is probably fine but definitely not S rank. Using it as a main wall breaker is not a good idea because of hurricane's accuracy and you do not want to rely on a 70% as your main method of breaking through teams. Even if you're not using offensive Torn it still has issues in checking the things it's supposed to check because of hurricane

i guess your right about lando-T
as for kyu surviving rain alive...
252+ Atk Life Orb Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 393-463 (100.5 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
im afraid your wrong.

Also why did you cut thundurus from the post but not charizard?

 

[Red Raven]

i guess your right about lando-T
as for kyu surviving rain alive...
252+ Atk Life Orb Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 393-463 (100.5 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
im afraid your wrong.

Also why did you cut thundurus from the post but not charizard?

Oh yeah I forgot I put Zard in. I cut out Thundurus because I have no comment on it. I'm haven't used it even once so I don't think I should comment about it. About Zard, I think that the vr council just wants to troll everyone here by leaving it in the rankings

Well

Hide

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 210-247 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 654-770 (248.6 - 292.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 606-714 (230.4 - 271.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 374-440 (142.2 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 280-330 (106.4 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Barraskewda is not safely switching in against Kyurem, which means at that point, Kyurem already has claimed a kill before Barra comes to revenge kill it. With all the switch moves running around, Kyurem is just gonna claim kill after kill every time it's brought in and adding Scizor to your rain team will have major opportunity costs

 

[Abhi]

mate theres this thing called slowking
and it uses teleport
and also i never said ice TYPE
ice beam from slowking/urshifu-S=EZ OHKO
and 90 def+89 hp is most certaintly not a physical blanket

Well Slowking cant switch into Landorus-T for free either since Landorus-T commonly runs U-turn and Knock Off, and Slowking doesnt run Ice Beam either, Slowbro does sometimes but even then Landorus-T can easily pivot out. Also Urshifu-S is banned I think you meant Urshifu-R which cant easily switch into Landorus-T either but can force it out yes and it doesnt need Ice Punch to do that. Also 89HP and 90Def is a lot when you add Intimidate onto that and that w its great defensive typing makes it a great physical blanket check to a lot. I wholeheartedly disagree w Landorus-T being dropped from S since its role compression is unmatched and it is very metagame defining.

edit: going to make a nom while im at it

S -> A+
Slowking is still great and definitely a big part of the meta but theres a lot that can abuse it atm and in my opinion it just doesnt compare to the metagame dominance of the other S tiers, it can still pull off a FuturePort combo and set up for a great wallbreaking opportunity but like I said it just doesnt compare to the other two and I wouldnt call it the face of OU.

Other noms i agree w:
-> A
-> A+
-> A-
-> A+
-> A-

 

[TailGlowVM]

Also, what Pokemon run Ice coverage moves? The only relevant Pokemon I can think of that do are Dragonite, Choice Band Melmetal, Slowking-G, Nidoking, occasionally Urshifu-R, (and Landorus-T isn't a counter to those five anyway) and Victini.

Regarding Thundurus: I don't even why it is ranked, given it does nothing as far as I can tell over Zeraora and Tapu Koko. For a Nasty Plot breaking set it only outspeeds Garchomp (which it still loses to), Kartana, and Adamant Weavile (which obviously destroys you anyway) out of relevant Pokemon compared to the Therian forme and loses a ton of power and the Electric immunity rain and hyper offense teams you would use it on value. As a Defiant attacker it suffers from a terrible physical movepool, making Bisharp and even Zapdos-G way better options for that option. It probably should be unranked.

I'm not sure what you're saying about Crawdaunt. It's slow and frail, yes, but its job isn't to be a speed control Pokemon or take hits for days and days. It's supposed to be the hardest thing for stall to switch into ever:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 100 - 118% - guaranteed OHKO (and nobody should be running full physdef anymore)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 100.2 - 118.2% - guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 87.6 - 102.9% - guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think you get the idea. And Clefable and Quagsire are definitely not "counters" to it:

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 59.3 - 70.5% - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 65.9 - 77.9% - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



Obviously Crawdaunt's generally poor matchup against more offensive playstyles and stall not being that good keeps it in B rank at best, but given just how good it can be at its job I think it is a perfectly reasonable place to rank it.

 

[BT89]

Barraskewda
B- -> at least B+

I disagree with this nom, Barraskewda only works on rain, which is currently dying out with the rising usage of other weathers being much more prominent than rain. Only working on an increasingly bad playstyle is not exactly ideal right now, and being useless outside of it makes Barraskewda an increasingly niche mon. I think rain is slightly overrated personally, since it gets walled by so much common stuff right now, and sun and hail are better at MU fishing. Barraskewda also does have walls in Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, Dragonite, basically most Water resists not named Ferrothorn, Kartana, or Pult. Barraskewda also can’t switch into anything, as it’s paper bulk makes it rare to find a switch in opportunity if you do not have a pivot. In my opinion, Barraskewda is an increasingly fringe sweeper on an increasingly fringe playstyle, and should either stay B- or drop to C+.

Edit:

Regarding Landorus-Therian, it should stay S. Landorus-Therian’s splashability is what makes it S. It fits on all kinds of teams, and always contributes somewhat to a match somewhat, whether it be Stealth Rocks or killing a key mon. The S tier is not for Pokemon that are broken in the meta, it is for Pokemon that define the meta and are a worthwhile consideration for all sorts of teams. Landorus-Therian is a worthwhile addition to most teams, considering that it’s usage is so high. I know usage =\= viability, but the usage shows how applicable it is on many teams. Not much is running Ice coverage right now, which is a blessing, and overall, Landorus Therian is a solid offensive and defensive Pokemon that can fulfill multiple different roles such as being a defensive Rocker to being an offensive threat. It’s ability to be used on all sorts of teams is what makes it S ultimately in my opinion.

 

[Auraganic]

In my opinion, Swampert should be B+, or at least higher than blaziken. It's access to rocks and solid offenses as well as flip turn make it an extremely good pivot for alot of bulky offense teams, and just offense in general. It is also notably resistant to rocks. It is extremely consistent on a game-to-game basis, and thus I believe it should be B+.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

In my opinion, Swampert should be B+, or at least higher than blaziken. It's access to rocks and solid offenses as well as flip turn make it an extremely good pivot for alot of bulky offense teams, and just offense in general. It is also notably resistant to rocks. It is extremely consistent on a game-to-game basis, and thus I believe it should be B+.

Its not that great, kart and rilla easilly kill it, and tang does exist. also hydregion resists water type moves along with being immune to ground due to levitate.

 

[Tzolkin]

Its not that great, kart and rilla easilly kill it, and tang does exist. also hydregion resists water type moves along with being immune to ground due to levitate.

That's really not the reason why Swampert isn't good because his role never was that of a wallbreaker. Its main issue is that while in theory he is a pivot with solid typing, defenses and the ability to set up rocks everything kind of falls apart in practice. He isn't that bulky so he can't be your primary switch-in into most wallbreakers and he has poor matchups versus most defoggers. The by far biggest problem, however, is his complete lack of longevity - he has no healing move and is thus incredibly vulnerable to chip dmg/knock off and especially toxic which renders it useless for the remainder of the game. Furtermore, this means that if he is going to be doing any switching in (or pivoting) he will be doing it once per game if he gets hit by anything serious. So all in all, Swampert seems good on paper but isn't that effective in practice.

 

[BT89]

In my opinion, Swampert should be B+, or at least higher than blaziken. It's access to rocks and solid offenses as well as flip turn make it an extremely good pivot for alot of bulky offense teams, and just offense in general. It is also notably resistant to rocks. It is extremely consistent on a game-to-game basis, and thus I believe it should be B+.

Swampert is generally an inferior pivot to most other things. His typing, ability to set Rocks, and alright defenses may seem like it would be succeeding right now, but it kinda crumples right now. It has no recovery, which is the big issue, as well as 0 longevity. It more or less just gets chipped to death by most things, like Knock, Toxic, etc. making it useless for the rest of a game. It’s just too hindered by its negative amounts of longevity to really perform any task efficiently when compared to better Stealth Rock pivots.

Edit: s/o to Tzolkin for basically saying what i said but better

 

[Spoontech]

I mentioned TWO ways to OHKO lando t, and plot twist: slowking LEAD.
you only mentioned how to OHKO slowking, bisharp obviously won't do against urshifu-R
I didn't even mention the possiblity of ice beam pelliiper/kyruem/fini/nidoking
or ice punch Dragonite/Melmetal/Swampert/Ttar
...
yes ik 2 of them wont switch into lando-T unless it uses stealth rock,
but another 1 absolutley walls it.
and all the beamers except nidoking aren't just gonna get OHKO'd
and kyruem just outspeeds it and kills it,
and pelliper walls it.
whatever the case, its not on the same level as pult
its decent utility but sadly it is w/o twave or prankster that thundurus posseses

Ah yes I'm gonna stay in with my Landorus on Nidoking/Kyurem. Even the 1100 ladder knows that shouldn't happen. Also Pelipper and Fini don't run ice moves and get U-turned on by Lando or knocked on the switch. Landorus is a DEFENSIVE mon, it generally doesn't want to come in on special attackers anyways and especially not when it has a bad matchup. You want it coming in on things that it has a positive matchup against (that list is much bigger).

Landorus' role compression is what makes it S-tier right now. It is a very bulky mon on the defensive side, not super slow, ground/electric immunity, T-wave absorber, Stealth Rocker, status spreader, Knocker and can hit hard with Earthquake and supereffective Knock offs/U-turns. And on top of that it can even act as a setup sweeper, double dancer, suicide lead, defensive pivot, scarf, leftovers set, rocky helmet set. Even though most are inferior to the defensive set, it can still cause mayhem if it's the wrong set at the wrong time.

 

[Ctann]

I have slightly modified my opinion on heatran. As the meta has continued to shift, I find it less of an S rank and more of a “top of A+”. This is mostly on the back of higher incidences of offensive switch ins that don’t need to worry about the fact that they only have 2-3 switch ins max per game due to putting massive pressure



I have experimented with a swords dance + scale shot combo to great succes. Regrettably it’s completely Walled by every fairy type, because poison jab isn’t worth running... but if you have a team that can cope with those, Kommo-O can sometimes solo an entire team!

I’m still experimenting with EV spreads, tho running enough EVs to emergency check banded Rillaboom is probably a good bench mark, and it doesn’t need more than 300 attack or 285 speed (for damage benchmarks and out speeding dragapult at +1 respectively)

moveset is:

- Swords dance
- Taunt
- Scale Shot
- Drain punch

with taunt, you can get +6 on some foes like toxapex, you really don’t mind being burnt in the end game.. drain punch allows you to solo the metal birds, unless they’re teching a very rare set. It also can stand up to Garchomp and enjoys the recent rise of urshifu

what are peoples thoughts on Kommo-O moving up slightly?



Primarina on a team got me to rank 5 OU so far.. and this is on a team with quite a few restrictions like item diversity, type diversity, no legendary or mythical, minimum 1 UU Pokémon, etc. usually its a struggle to break 1950..

I did almost touch onto 2000 rating but haven’t hit it (yet) and frankly getting bored and want to explore more grass types like Whimsicott.

Note: the low GXE is mostly from constantly changing teams and sometimes when something is non OU viable, like sceptile, I’ll go down to the 1600’s haha..

here’s a paste of the team, warning that it’s weak to a blissey+metal bird core

Team that got me to top 5 OU

Primarina @ Metronome
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Substitute

Slowking-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Trick
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam

Rillaboom @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
- Psychic

Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Roost

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Rock Slide

Notes:
- I rotated between that volcarona spread and another 196/248+/64 bold set

- Rillaboom can run superpower if you hate metallic birds, but I found drain punch an easier experience

- Garchomp can run almost any item, I settled on leftovers due to favourability against zapdos, heatran and teams that like to switch between landorus + fairy type when they see its the scale shot SD set. Roseli berry is good for a Fini lure and beats lead koko/lele, Yache berry helps as an ice beam slow bro lure, etc.

- Garchomp and Volcarona are undeniably the best parts of the team, and the two have their defensive utility augmented by Rillaboom

- Skarmory solved a lot of problems at once, I experimented with other steels like Excadrill (who cost me the Garchomp slot due to type diversity), but I just couldn’t find the same switch in value

- Galarian Slowking is so good.. except I can’t nominate it A+ in good faith due to Weavile and other STAB knock off users terrorising OU and sometimes getting free switch ins to it, because I had to be so careful against those types, especially if they’re packing a choice band, it’s definitely a great performer but also the easiest part of this team to exploit

- Primarina only loses to 2 common defensive Pokémon, Ferrothorn and Blissey/chansey. It loses to an additional 2 uncommon Pokémon, Shedinja and specially defensive wish protect clefable. The only counter play teams had was rotating some regenerator Pokémon’s and trying their best to find an opening to deal damage. Not easy as the vast majority of those Pokémon’s can’t hurt it much and meanwhile one bad prediction or a secondary effect/crit was much more likely when you’re taking 3+ turns to try and address a threat!

so there’s a little hope that my suggestion that Primarina be a contender for a higher rank - A might be unrealistic, but it’s leagues ahead of most Pokémon in its tier and the ones adjacent - might actually be taken semi-seriously? It’s a suggestion based on performance, not on hypotheticals and comparisons.

screenshot is attached for evidence of rank 5.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

You know I keep hearing this rain groupthink and borderline propaganda. A few of you were surprised that I use sun and said that rain outclasses it blah blah propaganda. However, who told you this? Why do you think sun is bad? I’m genuinely curious why y’all thought this because if you’ve ever tried sun… you’d know that it’s not bad. It ironically beats rain too which is hilarious

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I have slightly modified my opinion on heatran. As the meta has continued to shift, I find it less of an S rank and more of a “top of A+”. This is mostly on the back of higher incidences of offensive switch ins that don’t need to worry about the fact that they only have 2-3 switch ins max per game due to putting massive pressure

Heatran is a definitive S tier pokemon, it provides rocks for a team, a bunch of useful resistances, it is such a pressure on teambuilding since you need to know "what can get a free turn out of this and absolutely crumble my team from there". You cannot have a team that cannot deal with it, It is the best wallbreaker in the tier due the combination of Magma Storm, Taunt, and Toxic makes Heatran almost impossible to deal with defensively, as it is able to overwhelm its checks throughout the game. It has such a useful typing being quad resistance to fairy, steel, and a total immunity to fire allowing it to check volcarona, wisp pult, CM clefable, scizor. It has no true counter due to it being able to break them through the course of the game with toxic, taunt, magma storm trapping and stealth rocks.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

Heatran is a definitive S tier pokemon, it provides rocks for a team, a bunch of useful resistances, it is such a pressure on teambuilding since you need to know "what can get a free turn out of this and absolutely crumble my team from there". You cannot have a team that cannot deal with it, It is the best wallbreaker in the tier due the combination of Magma Storm, Taunt, and Toxic makes Heatran almost impossible to deal with defensively, as it is able to overwhelm its checks throughout the game. It has such a useful typing being quad resistance to fairy, steel, and a total immunity to fire allowing it to check volcarona, wisp pult, CM clefable, scizor. It has no true counter due to it being able to break them through the course of the game with toxic, taunt, magma storm trapping and stealth rocks.

It has one true counter and that one true counter is urshifu-R as it bypasses protect which makes magma storm trapping significantly more difficult. regardless, I don't think having one counter makes it unworthy of S, especially when despite getting killed by urshifu-r, it walls clefable, cripples most stall mons with taunt, and most importantly walls dragapult and volcorna.
it also walls non EQ melmetal/melmetal locked into double iron bash, and also OHKO's the choice band set while taking a solid chunk out of assault vest sets and nearly OHKO'ing the leftovers set. you CAN try scarfed eruption set to OHKO leftovers melmetal but it still wont OHKO assault vest melmetal and erruption is quite unreliable.
Also it OHKO's kart even on the defensive sets and on the defensive sets it can and will take an unboosted sacred sword from kart. Also can break sash due to magma storm trapping damage. Magma storm heavily damages lando-T on the switch even on defensive sets, and protect magma storm trapping can do a bit more damage before heatran switches into a ground resist/immune, and your probably running at least one on your team because there are alot of good flying types on the VR as well as hydregion having levitate and you can have your own lando-t switch into the EQ. RIlla is also pretty good RN, and heatran walls non focus blast kyruem or forces out focus blast specs (or scarf if people actually use that for some reason) kyruem locked into freeze dry, ice beam, or flash cannon. Obviously heatran hates blissey due to magma storms very low PP, so teamates that can easily KO blissey like sacred sword kart are appreciated, as kart with sacred sword 2HKO's the physdef set and EASILY ohko's the spdef set. heatran itself can also eat up blissey albeit slower then kart with taunt and magma storm trapping, this can be helpful for kart against the physdef sets as for kart to not get crippled by thunder wave. Obviously kart may seem to limit creativity, but despite taking a longer time heatran CAN ko blissey on its own and kart is A on the VR. Also, moistshifu doesn't like to switch into magma storm, although it still OHKO's heatran. Here however, kart can help us, again. we can switch into slowking and then teleport into kart if shifu stays in and back into heatran if it switches out. then shifu will almost be KO'd if it switches in again, and if it suicides or an OPPOSING slowking teleports into shifu rapid strike we'll repeat again and shifu will be forced to stay in if it wants to keep doing things. I also forgot to mention that if lando-T or heatran has stealth rock up, shifu wont even be able to switch in again into magma storm or a predict epower can 2HKO shifu rapid strike making slowking able to force out shifu or threaten it with kart, so if another predict earth power occurs then shifu will be KO'd rarley without rocks and and WILL be ohko'd with rocks up, just proving how important stealth rock is. with all these factors I'd agree with hydregionthechild that heatran is indeed S tier material

 

[viet noa]

You know I keep hearing this rain groupthink and borderline propaganda. A few of you were surprised that I use sun and said that rain outclasses it blah blah propaganda. However, who told you this? Why do you think sun is bad? I’m genuinely curious why y’all thought this because if you’ve ever tried sun… you’d know that it’s not bad. It ironically beats rain too which is hilarious

i don’t think sun is bad at all, it’s just not as good as rain. i don’t think rain is amazing either, but i consider it better than sun.
1. due to a lack of pivoting, recovery, and immunities, it can be difficult to consistently utilize torkoal. even with utility in stealth rock and rapid spin, it‘s still a pretty passive pokémon with not a lot of longevity.
2. in comparison, pelipper isn’t nearly as passive with 100% accurate hurricanes, the same 30% burn chance with scald, a slow u-turn that lets its teammates enter the field safely, and solid longevity with roost. so, pelipper stands out as a much more reliable weather setter.
3. venusaur has some potency as a premier sun sweeper, but it has trouble choosing between different moves. it needs earth power to break through heatran, but it also needs sludge bomb to break through fire, dragon, and fairy types. it loves having the power of solar beam, but it needs giga drain for some longevity.
4. weakening water type attacks doesn’t really have the same value as weakening fire type attacks. ferrothorn is a fantastic pokemon in the rain, because its main weakness consists of fire attacks. while pokémon like heatran and volcarona certainly benefit from the decrease in water damage under the sun, they still have exploitable weaknesses in ground/rock attacks.
5. many of the best rain sweepers (kingdra, barraskewda) have flip turn, whereas most sun abusers don’t have those pivoting moves at all. as a result of these pivoting capabilities, rain teams aren’t as linear.
6. there’s a wider variety of rain abusers, due to the accessibility of its different perks. as an example: thundurus and thundurus-t love having 100% accurate thunders, tornadus-t loves 100% accurate hurricanes, and each of these pokémon love weather ball to break through its immunities/resists. weather ball is also great for sun sweepers, but at the same time, there aren’t nearly as many sun abusers.
7. there isn’t as much of an inherent reliance on rain with the best rain teams. pokémon like tornadus-t and ferrothorn are still great without rain, and sweepers like barraskewda have at least a little value even without rain. in contrast, pokémon like venusaur and charizard entirely rely on sun for their viability.

8. this isn’t propaganda this is discussion about a video game

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

It has one true counter and that one true counter is urshifu-R as it bypasses protect which makes magma storm trapping significantly more difficult. regardless, I don't think having one counter makes it unworthy of S, especially when despite getting killed by urshifu-r

LMFAO, urshifu-r is not a counter because magma storm is doing 40% minimum due to trapping damage and not factoring rocks (0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage). Scarf tran is an unset and should never be used in a serious game, this is just a meme set on sun teams. The main set you use is sp def. you utilize the bulk of heatran and use it to your advantage making it very hard to break in a a game and always finds its way to cripple smth

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

i don’t think sun is bad at all, it’s just not as good as rain. i don’t think rain is amazing either, but i consider it better than sun.
1. due to a lack of pivoting, recovery, and immunities, it can be difficult to consistently utilize torkoal. even with utility in stealth rock and rapid spin, it‘s still a pretty passive pokémon with not a lot of longevity.
2. in comparison, pelipper isn’t nearly as passive with 100% accurate hurricanes, the same 30% burn chance with scald, a slow u-turn that lets its teammates enter the field safely, and solid longevity with roost. so, pelipper stands out as a much more reliable weather setter.
3. venusaur has some potency as a premier sun sweeper, but it has trouble choosing between different moves. it needs earth power to break through heatran, but it also needs sludge bomb to break through fire, dragon, and fairy types. it loves having the power of solar beam, but it needs giga drain for some longevity.
4. weakening water type attacks doesn’t really have the same value as weakening fire type attacks. ferrothorn is a fantastic pokemon in the rain, because its main weakness consists of fire attacks. while pokémon like heatran and volcarona certainly benefit from the decrease in water damage under the sun, they still have exploitable weaknesses in ground/rock attacks.
5. many of the best rain sweepers (kingdra, barraskewda) have flip turn, whereas most sun abusers don’t have those pivoting moves at all. as a result of these pivoting capabilities, rain teams aren’t as linear.
6. there’s a wider variety of rain abusers, due to the accessibility of its different perks. as an example: thundurus and thundurus-t love having 100% accurate thunders, tornadus-t loves 100% accurate hurricanes, and each of these pokémon love weather ball to break through its immunities/resists. weather ball is also great for sun sweepers, but at the same time, there aren’t nearly as many sun abusers.
7. there isn’t as much of an inherent reliance on rain with the best rain teams. pokémon like tornadus-t and ferrothorn are still great without rain, and sweepers like barraskewda have at least a little value even without rain. in contrast, pokémon like venusaur and charizard entirely rely on sun for their viability.

8. this isn’t propaganda this is discussion about a video game

on reason 2 its actually not just 100% accuracy hurricanes, its SURE HIT hurricanes. (tho evasion move clause exists so i guess thats only useful if for some reason they use an accuracy reducing move on you or for hitting pokemon running lax incense for some reason)

LMFAO, urshifu-r is not a counter because magma storm is doing 40% minimum due to trapping damage and not factoring rocks (0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage). Scarf tran is an unset and should never be used in a serious game, this is just a meme set on sun teams. The main set you use is sp def. you utilize the bulk of heatran and use it to your advantage making it very hard to break in a a game and always finds its way to cripple smth

i mean yeah you put it in a way shorter way than i did later in the post because i just pointed out an entier like 7 turn process to KO shifu when i wasnt realizing you can just magma storm it on the switch, do trap damage, and then do protect for even MORE trap damage, and then switch out.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

i mean yeah you put it in a way shorter way than i did later in the post because i just pointed out an entier like 7 turn process to KO shifu when i wasnt realizing you can just magma storm it on the switch, do trap damage, and then do protect for even MORE trap damage, and then switch out.

The thing is, this is not in a vacuum, I can just switch out into slowking, to scout your play, then go to either ferro or landorus-t to counter you. " Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax " Urshifu-r is not a definition of a counter

I have experimented with a swords dance + scale shot combo to great succes. Regrettably it’s completely Walled by every fairy type, because poison jab isn’t worth running... but if you have a team that can cope with those, Kommo-O can sometimes solo an entire team!

I’m still experimenting with EV spreads, tho running enough EVs to emergency check banded Rillaboom is probably a good bench mark, and it doesn’t need more than 300 attack or 285 speed (for damage benchmarks and out speeding dragapult at +1 respectively)

moveset is:

- Swords dance
- Taunt
- Scale Shot
- Drain punch

with taunt, you can get +6 on some foes like toxapex, you really don’t mind being burnt in the end game.. drain punch allows you to solo the metal birds, unless they’re teching a very rare set. It also can stand up to Garchomp and enjoys the recent rise of urshifu

what are peoples thoughts on Kommo-O moving up slightly?

Uh... No... Short awnser is garchomp outclasses it in every way shape or form. Long awnser is that nobody lets pex get taunted, and proceed to either not get a scald burn, or do not just switch out into smth like landorus-t, clefable, fini, or smth that can hit it hard before it sets up like brave bird coviknight, skarmory, slowbro. Garchomp has so many better qualities like defensively it can take on zeraora, zapdos, and it easily defeats toxapex. Garchomp also has much faster speed and is stronger with better coverage like fire fang, earthquake, and stone edge. The only good set is clangorus soul which only realistically fits on very offensive teams, screens, or HO.

 

[AM]

Uh... No... Short awnser is garchomp outclasses it in every way shape or form. Long awnser is that nobody lets pex get taunted, and proceed to either not get a scald burn, or do not just switch out into smth like landorus-t, clefable, fini, or smth that can hit it hard before it sets up like brave bird coviknight, skarmory, slowbro. Garchomp has so many better qualities like defensively it can take on zeraora, zapdos, and it easily defeats toxapex. Garchomp also has much faster speed and is stronger with better coverage like fire fang, earthquake, and stone edge. The only good set is clangorus soul which only realistically fits on very offensive teams, screens, or HO.

This is not true and there are a couple of instances of it being used in WCOP alone to prove this. The replay of Devin vs Redemption showcases it as well but Kommo-o didnt matter in the end game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-564980

Turn 94 start. Kommo-o stops things like Dragapult from spamming Shadow Ball freely due to Bulletproof otherwise giving Kommo free set up turns. You already check Zera with Kommo-O there is no Zera that runs Play Rough on a serious team and some of these things you mentioned can't actually defensively check it after a Swords Dance or even for the special variants. Chomp is in a higher tier for obvious reasons but lot of the reasons here seem to be pretty misinformed and exaggeration as opposed to use of it or just watching it be used in a decent manner.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

This is not true and there are a couple of instances of it being used in WCOP alone to prove this. The replay of Devin vs Redemption showcases it as well but Kommo-o didnt matter in the end game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-564980

Turn 94 start. Kommo-o stops things like Dragapult from spamming Shadow Ball freely due to Bulletproof otherwise giving Kommo free set up turns. You already check Zera with Kommo-O there is no Zera that runs Play Rough on a serious team and some of these things you mentioned can't actually defensively check it after a Swords Dance or even for the special variants. Chomp is in a higher tier for obvious reasons but lot of the reasons here seem to be pretty misinformed and exaggeration as opposed to use of it or just watching it be used in a decent manner.

Imma stay out of this argument because i have never used kommo-o in ou
edit: on second thought, imma side with hydregion. they were VERY lucky that hippo didn't go for whirlwind. all of the tapus except for bulu are pretty good rn. also kommo-o HATES clef being the 4th best mon on the vr, and kommo-o is NOT helpful against draga who just clicks ddarts.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

i don’t think sun is bad at all, it’s just not as good as rain. i don’t think rain is amazing either, but i consider it better than sun.
1. due to a lack of pivoting, recovery, and immunities, it can be difficult to consistently utilize torkoal. even with utility in stealth rock and rapid spin, it‘s still a pretty passive pokémon with not a lot of longevity.
2. in comparison, pelipper isn’t nearly as passive with 100% accurate hurricanes, the same 30% burn chance with scald, a slow u-turn that lets its teammates enter the field safely, and solid longevity with roost. so, pelipper stands out as a much more reliable weather setter.
3. venusaur has some potency as a premier sun sweeper, but it has trouble choosing between different moves. it needs earth power to break through heatran, but it also needs sludge bomb to break through fire, dragon, and fairy types. it loves having the power of solar beam, but it needs giga drain for some longevity.
4. weakening water type attacks doesn’t really have the same value as weakening fire type attacks. ferrothorn is a fantastic pokemon in the rain, because its main weakness consists of fire attacks. while pokémon like heatran and volcarona certainly benefit from the decrease in water damage under the sun, they still have exploitable weaknesses in ground/rock attacks.
5. many of the best rain sweepers (kingdra, barraskewda) have flip turn, whereas most sun abusers don’t have those pivoting moves at all. as a result of these pivoting capabilities, rain teams aren’t as linear.
6. there’s a wider variety of rain abusers, due to the accessibility of its different perks. as an example: thundurus and thundurus-t love having 100% accurate thunders, tornadus-t loves 100% accurate hurricanes, and each of these pokémon love weather ball to break through its immunities/resists. weather ball is also great for sun sweepers, but at the same time, there aren’t nearly as many sun abusers.
7. there isn’t as much of an inherent reliance on rain with the best rain teams. pokémon like tornadus-t and ferrothorn are still great without rain, and sweepers like barraskewda have at least a little value even without rain. in contrast, pokémon like venusaur and charizard entirely rely on sun for their viability.

8. this isn’t propaganda this is discussion about a video game

You act like pelipper always had drizzle. Rain has been find for a while without pelipper having drizzle and so was sun. So you have to switch I promise you it’s not hard at all. It’s actually very easy. Not only that the turtle is not the only mon with drought just the one I prefer. Also, a lot of sun mons are fine without sun lol even venu has won some games without it. Meanwhile if water is gonna maybe water mons turns nearly useless. As far as sun abusers not being plentiful, that’s just a bold faced lie, or maybe just not being knowledgeable. Fire mons love having sun up most of the time and there are a lot of chlorophyll mons who are ready to abuse it or love having water cut in half. It doesn’t need that much. Lastly, despite your callous words of this just being a game, there is a lot of propaganda and groupthink on this site despite it just being a game. If you know why they is the case let me know I think it’s weird too

 

[julian113]

C- to higher

For one of, if not the best screen setter in the tier this ranking is a crime. It provides great utility for ho teams with taunt to stop defog and comes with the added bonus of walling infiltrator pult, one of the biggest threats to offensive teams. Unlike koko, it essentially guarantees screens up thanks to prankster. With koko as a screens setter you are vulnerable to scarf lando and fast knock off/trick, problems grimm doesn't have. I've been running a lot of screens ho lately to great success, which led to my Blaziken post, and have consistently found this mon to be the best screen setting option on these teams. It doesn't belong below shit like tr and is definitely better than webs and fringe weather mons.

A+ to S

I don't get how this isn't S tier if Slowking is, imo this is the third best mon in the tier by far. Offers amazing offensive presence as well as a fantastic defensive typing and ability.

B- to C+

I know people have been talking about a rise, but this mon is almost completely outclassed by fini and comparing it to other mons in B- have convinced me that a drop is in order. Latios, Blace, Blaze, Moltres, and Rain all feel like they offer a unique and potent presence in the metagame that isn't replicated by other mons, whereas I find Prim is simply to slow and inconsistent to pull off a offensive set, and every other set is outclassed by fini.

I also feel like Latios is a bit underrated rn and might deserve a rise from the B- ranks along with Blaze, but I'll have to experiment with it a bit more.

 

[pulsar512b]

You act like pelipper always had drizzle. Rain has been find for a while without pelipper having drizzle and so was sun. So you have to switch I promise you it’s not hard at all. It’s actually very easy. Not only that the turtle is not the only mon with drought just the one I prefer. Also, a lot of sun mons are fine without sun lol even venu has won some games without it. Meanwhile if water is gonna maybe water mons turns nearly useless. As far as sun abusers not being plentiful, that’s just a bold faced lie, or maybe just not being knowledgeable. Fire mons love having sun up most of the time and there are a lot of chlorophyll mons who are ready to abuse it or love having water cut in half. It doesn’t need that much. Lastly, despite your callous words of this just being a game, there is a lot of propaganda and groupthink on this site despite it just being a game. If you know why they is the case let me know I think it’s weird too

It does not matter that in the past Peli did not have drizzle. What matters is the current state. Torkoal is the only half decent sun setter (Ninetales I suppose exists but it's ehhh). I would note that the rest of your points (other than "Meanwhile if water is gonna maybe water mons turns nearly useless.", which i can only interpret as rain abusers only working in rain which see: hiss's post), are pretty reasonable.

 

[Gomi]

i don’t think sun is bad at all, it’s just not as good as rain. i don’t think rain is amazing either, but i consider it better than sun.
1. due to a lack of pivoting, recovery, and immunities, it can be difficult to consistently utilize torkoal. even with utility in stealth rock and rapid spin, it‘s still a pretty passive pokémon with not a lot of longevity.
2. in comparison, pelipper isn’t nearly as passive with 100% accurate hurricanes, the same 30% burn chance with scald, a slow u-turn that lets its teammates enter the field safely, and solid longevity with roost. so, pelipper stands out as a much more reliable weather setter.
3. venusaur has some potency as a premier sun sweeper, but it has trouble choosing between different moves. it needs earth power to break through heatran, but it also needs sludge bomb to break through fire, dragon, and fairy types. it loves having the power of solar beam, but it needs giga drain for some longevity.
4. weakening water type attacks doesn’t really have the same value as weakening fire type attacks. ferrothorn is a fantastic pokemon in the rain, because its main weakness consists of fire attacks. while pokémon like heatran and volcarona certainly benefit from the decrease in water damage under the sun, they still have exploitable weaknesses in ground/rock attacks.
5. many of the best rain sweepers (kingdra, barraskewda) have flip turn, whereas most sun abusers don’t have those pivoting moves at all. as a result of these pivoting capabilities, rain teams aren’t as linear.
6. there’s a wider variety of rain abusers, due to the accessibility of its different perks. as an example: thundurus and thundurus-t love having 100% accurate thunders, tornadus-t loves 100% accurate hurricanes, and each of these pokémon love weather ball to break through its immunities/resists. weather ball is also great for sun sweepers, but at the same time, there aren’t nearly as many sun abusers.
7. there isn’t as much of an inherent reliance on rain with the best rain teams. pokémon like tornadus-t and ferrothorn are still great without rain, and sweepers like barraskewda have at least a little value even without rain. in contrast, pokémon like venusaur and charizard entirely rely on sun for their viability.

8. this isn’t propaganda this is discussion about a video game

The first point is true but frankly with pokemon like Heatran and Victini being a thing, its usually not that difficult to find the room to hard swap something in and get some damage going. Torkoal not being able to pivot is definitely a downside, but I think you're overselling how much it matters.

Second point is true but I do think it's unfair to discount Torkoal's utility in the possibility to have Rocks+Spin, absurd bulk ( 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 242-289 (70.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, There are neutral pokemon who take more than this), lava plume's sheer obnoxiousness, Body press' ability to snipe Tyranitar, etc. It's an incredibly varied setter and I've been surprised by its movepool and sheer bulk time and time again.

third point is also true on paper but then you think of the list of pokemon Sludge bomb hits, and the list is pretty much just Lati twins, Kyurem somewhat harder (which is fine because its so easy for Sun to maintain rocks), and a few random midgrounds. There really isn't a lot of pokemon you strictly lose to because of Sludge Bomb being so much harder to fit., EP+Weather Ball+Giga+Growth is great coverage.

this one feels really random? weakening Urshifu-r is fairly relevant I'd say. Not like Heatran is a non threat to Rain either bc of Toxic and the possibility of rocks.

This ones more of a case of differing gameplan than anything, Rain's sweepers kind of need that pivoting because they can't even dream of matching the destructive power of a Growth Venu, especially Kingdra. Plenty of good Sun breakers offer pivoting, most notably Darm and Victini, and defensive pieces like Mandibuzz can do the same. I wouldn't say one is that much more linear than the other really.

Same deal as what I said before honestly, There's more variety yea but Rain wishes it could get a sweeper as devastating as Venusaur, and there's still quite a few pokemon that benefit from Fire coverage being boosted (Hydreigon, Garchomp) or that just appreciate the raw power sun allows them to have (Victini, Heatran, Darm, Volcarona, even Blacephalon)

This is just not really true, Rain this gen is definitely fairly reliant on its weather being up, most of the pokemon on the archetype are either severely crippled without rain, like Thunder users, or flat out just really really bad without that support, like Barraskewda. I wouldn't say its that far off from Sun really.

in fact, I'd go as far to say that and are worth a raise to C+ or and are worth a drop to C+ (i think rains C lol but i wont push my luck), these playstyles are not an entire 2 subranks apart in viability and if anything, i consider Sun better