Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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clean

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I would like to make some nomimations.

Cinderace A -> A+ :- The LO and HBD set are already known by everyone. Cinderace, is a Pokemon who gets way too many things done right now. He is my favorite bait for Heatran right now which come in on an expected Pyro Ball and get rekt with HJK, which allows my Shift Gear Magearna to run rampant. Cinderace provides immense support to teams whether it be by pivoting or switching hazards with Court Change. It's a niche move but good nonetheless. One more thing is how easily he gains momentum. Cinderace puts in work everyone he comes on the field. And the life orb set can sweep easily late game, and HBD set will do that with more chip damage. Cinderace's ability to check some of the biggest threats in OU right now (Mag and Urshifu locked onto anything but Sucker Punch) is very useful. Cinderace can act as a cleaner, pivot, hazard controller and provides precious momentum and fast offensive presence for HO teams.

Ferrothorn A+ -> A :- Ferrothorn is still good and probably the best hazard setter right now (aside from SR Clefable maybe) but he provides a safe switch in for Cinderace and Urshifu, both of whom can be destructive. Also, Volcarona can setup on his face and if Volc's checks are taken out, sending in Ferrothorn is digging your own grave. Cinderace can also court change his rocks and spikes and undo all the progress.

Kartana A -> B+ It's a big dip, but Kartana has no use outside of his scarf set to me. Mandibuzz is everywhere as a Spectrier check and defogger, and Sword Dance set is eaten for dinner by Foul Play Mandibuzz. Also, without Scarf he gets out speed by Cinderace, who will Half Hit KO it. Even the scarf set isn't doing anything to Mandibuzz, who has 50% chance of OHKO'ing you at +1.

Tapu Lele B+ -> A- :- Scarf Tapu Lele is a very good revenge killer right now due to Psychic terrains priority block and outstanding offensive capabilities. Psyshock in terrain is too strong. Also, he can check both Banded Urshifu and Spectrier (not behind sub) which is a plus point for anyone right now. Also, performs as a wall breaker with specs but Latios is better for that I believe.

Bisharp C -> B- :- Bisharp's access to sucker punch and Knock off make him a good check to Spectrier. But the reason I actually nominated him is his ability to punish defog. With some prior damage, all the common defoggers in the tier fall prey to +2 Knock Off or Iron Head, and those who switch in to take a hit get crippled by losing their items. This is a win - win draw for the Bisharp user as he is making progress anyways. While Urshifu is dominating the tier right now, Urshifu demolishes every dark type except Mandibuzz right now. And one thing to note is that Urshifu isn't switching in on LO +2 iron head anytime soon, so they will need to sack a mon to bring him in. Of course, there are drawbacks like Moltres could possibly cripple him with a contact burn or Zapdos restricting him to Sucker punch alone due to Paralysis, but he is still a good mon.
I disagree with the Kartana drop.

Life Orb with SD + 3 attacks is an extremely threatening breaker that can punch massive holes in teams. Yeah, it's weak to jolly Cinderace, but that doesn't make it less useful. Grass is a great offensive typing, and Kart can bust through most stall matchups after a single SD. It has enough physical bulk to withstand, say, an Urshifu sucker punch, or other priority.
 
I would like to make some nomimations.

Cinderace A -> A+ :- The LO and HBD set are already known by everyone. Cinderace, is a Pokemon who gets way too many things done right now. He is my favorite bait for Heatran right now which come in on an expected Pyro Ball and get rekt with HJK, which allows my Shift Gear Magearna to run rampant. Cinderace provides immense support to teams whether it be by pivoting or switching hazards with Court Change. It's a niche move but good nonetheless. One more thing is how easily he gains momentum. Cinderace puts in work everyone he comes on the field. And the life orb set can sweep easily late game, and HBD set will do that with more chip damage. Cinderace's ability to check some of the biggest threats in OU right now (Mag and Urshifu locked onto anything but Sucker Punch) is very useful. Cinderace can act as a cleaner, pivot, hazard controller and provides precious momentum and fast offensive presence for HO teams.

Ferrothorn A+ -> A :- Ferrothorn is still good and probably the best hazard setter right now (aside from SR Clefable maybe) but he provides a safe switch in for Cinderace and Urshifu, both of whom can be destructive. Also, Volcarona can setup on his face and if Volc's checks are taken out, sending in Ferrothorn is digging your own grave. Cinderace can also court change his rocks and spikes and undo all the progress.

Kartana A -> B+ It's a big dip, but Kartana has no use outside of his scarf set to me. Mandibuzz is everywhere as a Spectrier check and defogger, and Sword Dance set is eaten for dinner by Foul Play Mandibuzz. Also, without Scarf he gets out speed by Cinderace, who will Half Hit KO it. Even the scarf set isn't doing anything to Mandibuzz, who has 50% chance of OHKO'ing you at +1.

Tapu Lele B+ -> A- :- Scarf Tapu Lele is a very good revenge killer right now due to Psychic terrains priority block and outstanding offensive capabilities. Psyshock in terrain is too strong. Also, he can check both Banded Urshifu and Spectrier (not behind sub) which is a plus point for anyone right now. Also, performs as a wall breaker with specs but Latios is better for that I believe.

Bisharp C -> B- :- Bisharp's access to sucker punch and Knock off make him a good check to Spectrier. But the reason I actually nominated him is his ability to punish defog. With some prior damage, all the common defoggers in the tier fall prey to +2 Knock Off or Iron Head, and those who switch in to take a hit get crippled by losing their items. This is a win - win draw for the Bisharp user as he is making progress anyways. While Urshifu is dominating the tier right now, Urshifu demolishes every dark type except Mandibuzz right now. And one thing to note is that Urshifu isn't switching in on LO +2 iron head anytime soon, so they will need to sack a mon to bring him in. Of course, there are drawbacks like Moltres could possibly cripple him with a contact burn or Zapdos restricting him to Sucker punch alone due to Paralysis, but he is still a good mon.
I don't agree with the Ferrothorn nomination,for starters saying that Ferro gives Ace and Urshifu a free switch is a lie Ferrothorn runs Knock Off all the time so he can cripple the power of these two.(It can also cripple the longevity of Cinderace if it Knocks his Heavy Duty Boots)Volcarona while it is good its not having a good time in the metagame with the presence of Heatran which can make Volcarona's life a living hell to say nothing of the occasional Blissey, and of course just like the aforementioned Ace and Shifu it can't switch into a Knock Off sure it has to risk a flame body burn but so does Volcarona when switching into Ferro.Finally no one runs court change on Cinderace anymore since Libero is waayy to good to forgoe a move that can take advantage of it
 
I disagree with the Kartana drop.

Life Orb with SD + 3 attacks is an extremely threatening breaker that can punch massive holes in teams. Yeah, it's weak to jolly Cinderace, but that doesn't make it less useful. Grass is a great offensive typing, and Kart can bust through most stall matchups after a single SD. It has enough physical bulk to withstand, say, an Urshifu sucker punch, or other priority.
I do know that SD Kartana can punish bulkier teams with ease, but A tier. I just think that it is high for Kartana when, and I'm saying this as a Kartana fan, when Garchomp with Scale shot + Sword Dance outclasses him due to the ability outspeed scarfers after Scale Shot boost and having access to Edge Quake as well. I may have been overstating the impact of Cinderace and Mandibuzz, but I still believe that he is outclassed by some breakers and scarfers. But he is immune to toxic so that may make him better vs Stall)

EDIT :- Never mind, read post #84 and found out why he was A. Thank you.

I don't agree with the Ferrothorn nomination,for starters saying that Ferro gives Ace and Urshifu a free switch is a lie Ferrothorn runs Knock Off all the time so he can cripple the power of these two.(It can also cripple the longevity of Cinderace if it Knocks his Heavy Duty Boots)Volcarona while it is good its not having a good time in the metagame with the presence of Heatran which can make Volcarona's life a living hell to say nothing of the occasional Blissey, and of course just like the aforementioned Ace and Shifu it can't switch into a Knock Off sure it has to risk a flame body burn but so does Volcarona when switching into Ferro.Finally no one runs court change on Cinderace anymore since Libero is waayy to good to forgoe a move that can take advantage of it
Ah. Thanks for telling me that. Somehow I always managed to switch in my Cinder on an expected Stealth Rock. I thought Court Change did see some surprise usage. Guess I was wrong. Thanks.
 
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:volcanion: Volcanion C- to B- :volcanion:

A click-button breaker for rain that isn't OHKO'd by much. Regular balance and stall builds have no switch-in since ferro/pex/blissey all get blown up by specs steam eruption. This is a huge boon for rain, since breaking this core usually requires dedicated tech. There are no real water immunities played, so unless your opponent running dragonite or spdef slowking, they lose something every time this gets in.

Does this job about as well as crawdaunt, but on the special side, so B- it is.

Absolutely blasting some modchat noob:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1249157577-oqurms9tgpp6cesnmey6samu2rifst9pw

https://pokepast.es/9e8cc9d74fe6905a
 
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Finchinator

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Cinderace should be A+ and Urshifu should be S-/S.

As for the soccer player, it’s a super dynamic pivot that becomes a potent breaker when it has the right coverage. Even in games where it lacks HJK against Heatran or Gunk Shot against Tapu Fini, it is not necessarily hard to chip them with a reliable Stealth Rock setter, repeated chip, and any other incremental support (i.e: Knock Off, Future Sight, Spikes, etc.). Overall, it is strong, fast, and accessible enough to be consistently involved in games. The Bulk Up set is effective, too, but lacking U-Turn makes it a bit more of a match-up risk admittedly. I still believe it is an A+ option offensively right now.

Urshifu is amazing, perhaps even better than ever before. Buzzwole has fallen off, thus limiting counterplay to Clefable spam once more. With Future Sight being more prominent than earlier in the generation and offensive partners to Urshifu also thriving, finding openings and breaking down checks for Urshifu has never been easier. Even standalone, it’s a fantastic breaker. But now it has a lot more going for it and this continues to show in the metagame. Urshifu is without a doubt a top 5 Pokemon and deserves to move up a little.
 

Finchinator

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Apologies for this being delayed. I got unexpectedly busy both yesterday and today, but I am glad to finally have this up. Enjoy!

Rises
  • :Urshifu: (Single) from A+ to S: Urshifu's rise in viability happening alongside the recent suspect test is no coincidence. The metagame hardly has enough tools to handle it. Wicked Blow + Close Combat STABs coupled with coverage for Fairy types goes a long way for Urshifu. While it is not the single fastest or bulkiest Pokemon, it is capable of getting in safely and doing lots of damage each time if it does not run into the decrasingly common Buzzwole. It clearly belongs among the best Pokemon in the tier right now.
  • :Cinderace: from A to A+: Cinderace took a bit of a drop-off upon release of DLC2 due to being overwhelmed with a plethora of other offensive options, but with the metagame settling, it is back in business. The soccer player is kicking around the tier like it has in prior metagames; the rise to A+ highlights how strong of a pivot and breaker it can be with minimal support.
  • :Landorus-Therian: from A to A+: Landorus-T is topping the usage statistics and it has a number of strong sets, including the increasingly common Scarf set. While it is nowhere near peak Landorus-T from last generation and still not the best Pokemon in the tier -- or particularly close, it is still within the top 10 and belongs in A+.
  • :Rillaboom: from A- to A: Rillaboom has been a great supporter, pivot, and revenge killer with Grassy Surge, U-turn, and Grassy Glide respectively. It has stayed strong in the metagame, even picking up usage recently due to how practical of an option it is.
  • :Tornadus-Therian: from A- to A: Tornadus-Therian has proven to be a great pivot and potential win condition thanks to the combination of Regenerator and Heavy Duty Boots. While no one set is quite metagame defining, it serves as a great addition to balance structures and belongs in the A ranks.
  • :Corviknight: from B+ to A-: Corviknight does well in a metagame filled with Physical Ground and Grass types while serving the role of Defog supporter. It is not weak to Stone Edge, too, which can give it a leg up on common alternatives such as Zapdos and Moltres. Corviknight is seeing more and more usage due to this niche.
  • :Hydreigon: from B+ to A-: Being able to check Heatran and Spectrier while fulfilling either a defensive utility role or a more offensively oriented breaker role can allow for many teams to make use of Hydreigon, which is finally seeing steady usage as a result.
  • :Tapu Lele: from B+ to A-: Tapu Lele's strong specially offensive presence allows for a lot of teams to use it as a breaker; few things switch in to it and players are finally capitalizing on this, leading to a small increase in rank.
  • :Hippowdon: from B to B+: Hippowdon is a great wall that can check a number of strong attackers, provide teams with an Electric immunity, set up Stealth Rock, and set-up Sand to support potential teammates. These roles allow for Hippowdon to have a consistent presence in the metagame now.
  • :Suicune: from B to B+: While arguably inconsistent, Suicune's ability to sweep unprepared teams is second-to-none, which is more than enough for a slight increase in ranking.
  • :Tangrowth: from B to B+: Tangrowth is able to check a ton of physical attackers right now. Landorus-T, non-mixed Garchomp, Kartana, Melmetal, Excadrill, Rillaboom, and Urhifu-Rapid are all struggling with a physically defensive Tangrowth. The Rocky Helmet set allows for Tangrowth to remain a great defensive option in an evolving metagame.
  • :Hawlucha: from B- to B: Hawlucha has seen a bit of a revival recently, pairing well with Tapu Koko on HO and Rillaboom on various offenses as a sneaky win condition and revenge killer on teams that appreciate both of these roles filled.
  • :Slowking-Galar: from B- to A-: Slowking-G was perhaps even better than A- with Quiver Dance Pheromosa still roaming free, but it is solid regardless as it can check all Magearna, Clefable, and Tapu Fini while providing a respectable offensive presence and soaking up Toxic Spikes.
  • :Amoonguss: from C+ to B: Amoonguss is able to use Spore, soak up Toxic Spikes, and check threatening attackers like Rillaboom, which allows for it to see a bit more usage and viability than when DLC2 came out.
  • :Moltres-Galar: from C+ to B: Moltres-Galar is a potent special attacking option with strong STABs and Berserk. While it does have some rough match-ups such as Tyranitar, it is oftentimes able to carry its weight and check Spectrier defensively.
  • :Quagsire: from C to C+: Unaware option on stall teams, but stall is still not great, so it will not get out of the C ranks for the time being.
  • :Rotom-Wash: from C to C+: Rotom-Wash can be a pivot that is immune to Ground moves and able to capitalize on the various common Flying types we see in the metagame. It is seeing a little bit of usage, but it is still not particularly common enough to warrant a placement in the B ranks yet.
  • :Thundurus-Therian: from C to C+: Rain teams occasionally employ Thundurus-Therian to function as a potent special breaker, which is a strategy more players are taking advantage of.
  • :Seismitoad: from C- to C: Rain teams occasionally employ Seismitoad to function as a special sweeper and it can also be a viable Stealth Rock setter.
  • :Volcanion: from C- to C: It hits like a truck on the special end and has respectable natural bulk, which allows for Rain and some fringe balance teams to take advantage of Volcanion.
  • :Exploud: from UR to C: Specs Boomburst.
Drops
  • :Clefable: from S to A+: I personally voted for S and feel it should stay there with Urshifu in the tier, but the main argument for A+ appears to be that it is limited to specific roles due to things like Urshifu being in the tier. They force it to run less productive variants and make playing around it easier. Clefable is still one of the best Pokemon and plays a role in defining the metagame, but it is true that right now the presence of Clefable is largely a reactionary one, which is far more susceptible to countermeasures and well thought-out strategies that take advantage of it.
  • :Slowbro: from A+ to A: Slowbro is still a great pivot with Future Sight, but it is not quite seen as one of the absolute best options with stiff competition being present from Slowking, Slowking-Galar, Toxapex, and other Pokemon depending on the specific roles you wish to fulfill.
  • :Blissey: from A to A-: Blissey is a strong specially defensive pivot, but many sets and trends exploit it. In addition, there are tons of common physical attackers that outright destroy it circulating the metagame right now.
  • :Dragapult: from A to A-: Dragapult, while not actually outclassed by Spectrier due to them fulfilling vastly different roles, is seeing less usage and viability due to different team structures not catering to its niche as a hit-and-run form of speed control through status, hex, and momentum generation with U-turn. As the metagame stablizes, there is simply less need and ability to fit it onto builds currently.
  • :Kartana: from A to A-: Kartana faces stiff competition with other strong physical attackers and it also is walled by a number of common physically defensive options.
  • :Buzzwole: from B+ to B: Buzzwole's passivity vs top options like Clefable, Toxapex, Zapdos, and Tapu Fini causes great concern for users of it despite being able to wall Kartana, Urshifu, and many offensive Ground types.
  • :Latios: from A- to B+: Latios is stuck in an awkward spot currently as it is incapable of breaking many balance structures, often limited to getting off a Trick and some chip most games. It is not fast enough to be speed control and seldom fulfills a defined defensive role. While the lack of Pursuit benefits it greatly, that is about all Latios has going for it currently.
  • :Blaziken: from B+ to B: Blaziken has not been able to put it all together and function as a win condition yet. It is oftentimes able to pick up individual kills before being overwhelmed or outright stopped when paired with enough support, but overall fragility has left it incapable of being a top option in the metagame.
  • :Magnezone: from B+ to B: Magnezone has been harder to fit on teams with less trappable Steels and more defensive limitations imposed on teambuilding.
  • :Urshifu: (Rapid) from B to B-: Urshifu-R is almost entirely limited to Rain teams, which reside in B- and have been voted to stay there almost unanimously. Urshifu-R sees sporadic usage on balances, but also is not even a staple on Rain, so it does not warrant any higher of a ranking itself currently.
  • :Incineroar: from B- to C: The daydream of Spectrier reviving Incineroar would be a reality if there were more reasons to use it. That is a big if though. Sadly that if has not became a reality, so Incineroar falls back into the depth of the C ranks for the time being.
  • :Zapdos-Galar: from B- to C+: Zapdos-G has simply not gained traction. It is a niche option offensively to abuse Defog and that alone is not enough. Other Fighting types provide stiff competition and it will struggle until this changes or there are more reasons to try it on teams.
Hope everyone has a happy New Year and stays safe. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the VR this year and I am looking forward to reading everyone's posts moving forward as well.
 

Finchinator

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:Hawlucha: for B+

On paper, Hawlucha is threatening like normal, but there are checks. Clefable can handle it of course, Slowbro is able to deter it consistently, Zapdos counters any variant lacking Stone Edge, healthy Tapu Fini can take it out, and there are less set-up opportunities than ever before due to the metagame being a bit more proactive than earlier this generation.

However, KokoLucha is well on its way to achieving the ladder hero god tier status that it once had last generation. While I do believe there are some roadblocks, such as those mentioned above and Tapu Koko being more support oriented (see: screens sets, especially with offensive pivot variants being unable to run HP Ice), there is still lots of room for these two to set the table for some devastating HO squads.

I feel like Hawlucha initially was overwhelmed by the abundance of new Pokemon that served as win conditions and fit onto these archetypes upon the release of Crown Tundra. On top of that, a certain faster Electric type with even less coverage gave Tapu Koko stiff competition in the early days. I believe we are now past this point and KokoLucha is beginning to normalize itself. Of all of the Pokemon in the B rank, it feels like Hawlucha stands out to me. I see it more than the others -- more than most of them combined even, it is able to generate offensive pressure in a more convenient fashion than most of the offensive Pokemn there, and it is also able to function as a revenge killer in a pinch, which is worth noting.

Overall, I feel like Hawlucha is the best Pokemon in B and fits in well with those currently in B+. A recent surge in it being used on hyper offense really solidifies its case for moving up.
 
Rillaboom
: A--> A+
I really think Rillaboom deserve A+ due to the ability to revenge-kill a lot of the metagame offensive threats like Urishifu-surging-strikes,most of the Tapus(especially Tapu Fini) ,Garchomp,NidoKing,.... with a band grassy slide set,It's wood hammer also tear walls like clefable,toxapex,... apart, even resist take heave damage and can die after stealth and spikes .It also have quite a good movepool with U-turn for momentum and pivoting, Superpower/Drain Punch for Ferrothorn,Blissey,Heatran,..., Acrobatics in grassy seed set for fighting type like Urshifu,Blaziken,Hawlucha,...., Earthquake for coverage, and even Fake out , Taunt can lockdown most defensives pokemons, Knock off for ghosts and knocking off items, and Finally, good boosting moves in sword dance and bulk up, it can even use Sub to get room for set up
I know it have disadvantages like struggling with Landorus, and also checked by Corviknight and some other pokemons, however, I still think it's diverse movepool and great advantages make it deserve to be in A+.
 
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If Urshifu-S is banned will Clefable again become S Class??
It's hard to give any sort of concrete answer to questions like this, as we're not fortune tellers, but it could. It could rise again because sets like Calm Mind get freed up a bunch again. On the other hand, Clefable will be forced on a lot less teams. We'll just have to see how it pans out in a post-Urshifu-S metagame, if it were to get banned.
 
+1 on this. Lucha can OHKO a LOT of the tier at +2 with stone edge as its coverage option, and it isn't particularly hard to get with a defense boost from a seed and especially screens from koko. Even better is that it resists the two most common priority moves, grassy glide and sucker punch, which also need to get through the defense boost, making it particularly difficult to revenge in this way.
 
I think zeraora should be a little bit higher. It has a good amount of viable sets full out physical, mixed spread with volt switch, bulk up/calm mind or a less viable but sometimes threatening full special set (although its outclassed by zapdos ). It can also make use of specs and band but its not that good. But it can use many different items on all of its sets life orb, heavy duty boots, air balloon, focus sash or even leftovers if you want longevity and you have defog support. It also has okay bulk so it won't immediately die to some random attack like clefable's moonblast and it can crush some top tier threats like toxapex or slowbro and even outspeeds spectrier. There's no denying it has a lot of flaws though like getting stuffed by garchomp or hippowdon or having four moveslot syndrome or sometimes coming up short on certain ko since its attacking stats aren't amazing. However I think its more than worthy of being moved up a tier or two.
 
Ok this post is gonna be quite long so bare with me.
Rises

A1490B4E-2793-4A2B-B922-BDB703458BF1.png

A+ to S:
Tran does its job and it does its job well. It’s one thing to be one of the best rockers in the tier, but it’s another being one of the best progress makers in tier, nothing can switch into it safely. Everything either is trapped by Magma Storm, hit by Earth Power, or crippled by Toxic. Considering that mons like Pex sometimes run Shed Shell and Glowing sometimes runs EQ speaks to how much of an impact Heatran has on the current meta. It’s good on its own but it’s even better when it is being supported or it is supporting whatever it is trapping something for Vinecune or being supported by Rilla.

C76E4542-50A2-41EA-8EB7-C0A1B0A24B2F.png

A > A+:
Fini has caused shifts in the meta such as the rise of Power Whip Ferro, Glowking, PJab Pex, or Taunt Koko due to how prominent the CM set is against fat teams. Being able to potentially turn the tables in a battle is very similar to prominent sweepers like CM Clef and Volcarona. Speaking of, the rise of Volcarona, Lando, and Hydreigon gives Fini a solid defensive niche. Fini has other sets to play around, Scarf Fini has an excellent mu against HO while crippling bulkier teams with Trick/Knock Off. The defensive defog set is still great, being able to keep hazards off from the mighty Tran and Chomp while having utility in Knock, Taunt, Nature’s Madness, etc.

21E38BA9-82E6-45DE-BE8D-4773747C38BA.png

A- > A:
From the usage statistics Hydreigon is skyrocketing in usage and its not hard to see why. Being able to check the likes of Spectrier, Crawdaunt, Nidoking, Heatran, and Lando while being a solid Defogger. Not just that, but more players are starting to realize NP is still bonkers. There has also been an experimentation of other sets like Roost + Three Attacks, and Sub-Roost proving that Hydreigon is not only the best Spectrier answer in the tier, but is also versatile.

F65F5AC4-4C5D-41B9-82D6-CDBD76C40595.png

B+ > A-:
Kyurem is still goated. Between Metronome, HDB, and Specs, it is incredibly difficult to switch into. Being able to pressure stall Tran’s Magma Storms and hit it incredibly hard with Earth Power is highly valuable for defensive teams. It’s bulk means it is less likely to be OHKOd by neutral hits, and its speed tier lets it outrun non-Scarf Lando/Fini, Excadrill, Nidoking, Rilla, Tran, and other threatening offensive threats.

7A5840D3-B19A-47FE-97DB-1D825B6E1D1E.png

B > B+:
No matter what meta this mon gets thrown in, it always finds a way to be OU relevant, from it’s surprisingly good bulk, to its great defensive typing, to its ability, and to its Scald burning, Earthquaking antics. Gastrodon has always been underrated in current generations, and this is no different. Just look at the list of mons it can check/counter from S to B.

A4821189-73FE-4487-AF93-D47D6742AD6B.png
(Specially Defensive Sticky Hold halts progress from Specs Mag.)
00BB3A75-2251-457F-806B-A3C309892967.png
(PhysD has a small chance to avoid a 2HKO from HJK after rocks.)
39511DEB-731A-4C19-AF70-466AFA00DA67.png
(Clear Smog prevents a sweep from CM Clef, and if it’s Sticky Hold, it doesn’t care about Trick.)
DD5C0E83-117B-4B74-87B4-E26E29C39A4D.png
(Don’t get Toxic’d.)

09313797-1118-4522-BEF0-31C1CCBEEFC7.png
(Don’t get Toxic’d or flinch haxed.)
65023FDA-4AC4-45EA-85F6-E8B9B6AA3C74.png
(Not a counter, but it can potentially check it or threaten to burn it with Scald.)
4174E1BC-981D-4431-8D28-88F38BD62D3D.png
(Sticky Hold doesn’t give two shits for Scarf sets and Clear Smog handles CM.)
C19ED359-D3C4-4FAF-B656-3246FDE312D7.png
(SpD Gastro is one of the few things in the tier that can both stay in on Zapdos and ignore Volt Switch.)
E58C134E-96D6-4768-B21F-D3F8CC304A6F.png
(Not really important but it’s worth noting.)
570039CC-8500-4574-84C6-BB3B48CE68F2.png
(Not a counter but it can sponge a hit and check it, especially if it’s SpD.)
CF092188-D25B-42D9-97A7-D1E4CB10FCCB.png
(Doesn’t really care about anything it throws out other than random Sludge Bomb poisons.)
315848CF-49D6-4B62-9166-37EAEC6678E1.png
(Not a full on counter cause Grass Knot, but it can sponge one Grass Knot if SpD and check it with EQ or Earth Power after rocks and minor chip.)
223DF306-B391-476F-BB6F-F86581AC2E7E.png
(Don’t get Toxic’d.)
A2C35F65-F831-4FA4-B67F-C2560E09F4A3.png
(SpD Gastro completely walls Zolt.)
51F99B55-987D-4AF4-965B-32790BFF3B33.png
(Suicune can only try pp stalling it.)
C4287435-2175-4BC0-8E47-5457B808753F.png
(Not a counter cause Specs Shadow Ball has a chance to 2HKO it after rocks, but it can sponge a hit and EQ it out of the park.)
70398B56-E720-47CA-92FB-E87DDDB2C3C1.png
(Toxic is rare, so it’s most likely gonna wall it for days.)
49F3B4E3-6E5F-4393-9758-83FC5B1FD4A9.png
(Beats non-Giga Drain variants, which aren’t common rn.)

Drops

387A77B9-94A7-40DB-922F-DB6DC8969303.png

A > B+:
Unfortunately for Mandibuzz, it has competition with Hydreigon cause unlike Mandibuzz, it isn’t a defogger that relies on Boots, is a Spectrier answer that can actually beat Spectrier, doesn’t get rekt by Heatran and outsped by Nidoking, and isn’t overly passive. Not to mention Mandibuzz struggles to fit everything it wants on it. It wants to cripple things with Knock or Toxic, it wants to create momentum with U-Turn, unfortunately it can’t run everything it wants which puts Mandi in a very weird spot. It’s so easy to abuse that most players don’t give a shit about it anymore. I would rather use Corv in this meta cause it isn’t OHKOd by Chomp’s SE after a SD.

3336D985-4DB1-4AF0-901A-67D90338CD3C.png

A- > B+:
Slowking doesn’t really answer to anything notable that Slowbro doesn’t other than Nidoking, Lele, and maybe Specs Mag. It’s MU against Heatran isn’t any better cause it’s still trapped by it and can’t 2HKO it back. It’s not bad but there’s a reason more people run Bro over it.

53522DC9-306C-4EE9-B80B-61B901D05B5A.png

B > C+:
Deadass what does Kommo-o even do in this meta anymore. Back before DLC1 it was a fantastic rocker due to being able to beat the two best (and only good) defoggers in the tier cause Iron Defense + Body Press can plow through them, and with how good Wishport was back then it was able to stay healthy for longer periods of time in order to check Excadrill, Bisharp, non-Play Rough Zeraora, and Conk. Fast forward to Crown Tundra and notice how only 1/4 of the mons in the tier are OU relevant and the rest are mostly niche picks. Kommo-o’s niche has mostly been irrelevant for a few reasons. We have gained far better offensive rockers as of late that can threaten the many new defoggers in the tier. Kommo-O is threatened out by Torn, Zapdos, Fini, Moltres, etc. If I wanted to use a dragon type rocker that can check Tran, I’d use Chomp. Kommo-o has other things going for it like checking Cinderace, Rilla, Urshifu, Daunt, and Kart. However we start to run into problems similar to Buzzwole but worse. Kommo-o has no reliable recovery meaning it will be overwhelmed by constant hits, especially since 3/5 of the mons mentioned can Knock it and cripple it for the rest kf the game, Wishport Clef has less room on teams simply cause Urshifu is such a prominent force. Will Kommo-o get better if Urshifu gets banned? Maybe, but as of now it doesn’t have a good enough niche to be in the same rank as Volcarona, Gastrodon, and Skarmory.

8EFDEF9D-D4B1-4A2F-BCDC-46B53C969EDB.png

B- > C+:
Amazing vs HO but ass vs every other archetype. Every one and their mothers run bulky waters on their teams. Has a hard time splashing itself on any team other than Rain. The influx of RH, Zapdos, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin gives it a hard time in even staying alive, let alone breaking past defensive cores. No reason this should be higher than Azumarill.

73DD3746-166D-473B-8769-3A767156113F.png

C- > UR:
How is this mon still ranked? Every good team runs either one or two fairy types, steel types, or both. Requires way too much support where it’s better to just slap a better breaker like Lele or Magearna. It’s only niche is in TR and even there it’s better to use mons that can actually make progress. Nuff said.
 
Ok this post is gonna be quite long so bare with me.
Rises

View attachment 304909
A+ to S:
Tran does its job and it does its job well. It’s one thing to be one of the best rockers in the tier, but it’s another being one of the best progress makers in tier, nothing can switch into it safely. Everything either is trapped by Magma Storm, hit by Earth Power, or crippled by Toxic. Considering that mons like Pex sometimes run Shed Shell and Glowing sometimes runs EQ speaks to how much of an impact Heatran has on the current meta. It’s good on its own but it’s even better when it is being supported or it is supporting whatever it is trapping something for Vinecune or being supported by Rilla.

View attachment 304910
A > A+:
Fini has caused shifts in the meta such as the rise of Power Whip Ferro, Glowking, PJab Pex, or Taunt Koko due to how prominent the CM set is against fat teams. Being able to potentially turn the tables in a battle is very similar to prominent sweepers like CM Clef and Volcarona. Speaking of, the rise of Volcarona, Lando, and Hydreigon gives Fini a solid defensive niche. Fini has other sets to play around, Scarf Fini has an excellent mu against HO while crippling bulkier teams with Trick/Knock Off. The defensive defog set is still great, being able to keep hazards off from the mighty Tran and Chomp while having utility in Knock, Taunt, Nature’s Madness, etc.

View attachment 304913
A- > A:
From the usage statistics Hydreigon is skyrocketing in usage and its not hard to see why. Being able to check the likes of Spectrier, Crawdaunt, Nidoking, Heatran, and Lando while being a solid Defogger. Not just that, but more players are starting to realize NP is still bonkers. There has also been an experimentation of other sets like Roost + Three Attacks, and Sub-Roost proving that Hydreigon is not only the best Spectrier answer in the tier, but is also versatile.

View attachment 304914
B+ > A-:
Kyurem is still goated. Between Metronome, HDB, and Specs, it is incredibly difficult to switch into. Being able to pressure stall Tran’s Magma Storms and hit it incredibly hard with Earth Power is highly valuable for defensive teams. It’s bulk means it is less likely to be OHKOd by neutral hits, and its speed tier lets it outrun non-Scarf Lando/Fini, Excadrill, Nidoking, Rilla, Tran, and other threatening offensive threats.

View attachment 304916
B > B+:
No matter what meta this mon gets thrown in, it always finds a way to be OU relevant, from it’s surprisingly good bulk, to its great defensive typing, to its ability, and to its Scald burning, Earthquaking antics. Gastrodon has always been underrated in current generations, and this is no different. Just look at the list of mons it can check/counter from S to B.

View attachment 304918(Specially Defensive Sticky Hold halts progress from Specs Mag.)
View attachment 304919(PhysD has a small chance to avoid a 2HKO from HJK after rocks.)
View attachment 304920(Clear Smog prevents a sweep from CM Clef, and if it’s Sticky Hold, it doesn’t care about Trick.)
View attachment 304921(Don’t get Toxic’d.)

View attachment 304922(Don’t get Toxic’d or flinch haxed.)
View attachment 304923(Not a counter, but it can potentially check it or threaten to burn it with Scald.)
View attachment 304924(Sticky Hold doesn’t give two shits for Scarf sets and Clear Smog handles CM.)
View attachment 304925(SpD Gastro is one of the few things in the tier that can both stay in on Zapdos and ignore Volt Switch.)
View attachment 304926(Not really important but it’s worth noting.)
View attachment 304927(Not a counter but it can sponge a hit and check it, especially if it’s SpD.)
View attachment 304928(Doesn’t really care about anything it throws out other than random Sludge Bomb poisons.)
View attachment 304930(Not a full on counter cause Grass Knot, but it can sponge one Grass Knot if SpD and check it with EQ or Earth Power after rocks and minor chip.)
View attachment 304931(Don’t get Toxic’d.)
View attachment 304932(SpD Gastro completely walls Zolt.)
View attachment 304934(Suicune can only try pp stalling it.)
View attachment 304935(Not a counter cause Specs Shadow Ball has a chance to 2HKO it after rocks, but it can sponge a hit and EQ it out of the park.)
View attachment 304936(Toxic is rare, so it’s most likely gonna wall it for days.)
View attachment 304937(Beats non-Giga Drain variants, which aren’t common rn.)

Drops

View attachment 304938
A > B+:
Unfortunately for Mandibuzz, it has competition with Hydreigon cause unlike Mandibuzz, it isn’t a defogger that relies on Boots, is a Spectrier answer that can actually beat Spectrier, doesn’t get rekt by Heatran and outsped by Nidoking, and isn’t overly passive. Not to mention Mandibuzz struggles to fit everything it wants on it. It wants to cripple things with Knock or Toxic, it wants to create momentum with U-Turn, unfortunately it can’t run everything it wants which puts Mandi in a very weird spot. It’s so easy to abuse that most players don’t give a shit about it anymore. I would rather use Corv in this meta cause it isn’t OHKOd by Chomp’s SE after a SD.

View attachment 304943
A- > B+:
Slowking doesn’t really answer to anything notable that Slowbro doesn’t other than Nidoking, Lele, and maybe Specs Mag. It’s MU against Heatran isn’t any better cause it’s still trapped by it and can’t 2HKO it back. It’s not bad but there’s a reason more people run Bro over it.

View attachment 304949
B > C+:
Deadass what does Kommo-o even do in this meta anymore. Back before DLC1 it was a fantastic rocker due to being able to beat the two best (and only good) defoggers in the tier cause Iron Defense + Body Press can plow through them, and with how good Wishport was back then it was able to stay healthy for longer periods of time in order to check Excadrill, Bisharp, non-Play Rough Zeraora, and Conk. Fast forward to Crown Tundra and notice how only 1/4 of the mons in the tier are OU relevant and the rest are mostly niche picks. Kommo-o’s niche has mostly been irrelevant for a few reasons. We have gained far better offensive rockers as of late that can threaten the many new defoggers in the tier. Kommo-O is threatened out by Torn, Zapdos, Fini, Moltres, etc. If I wanted to use a dragon type rocker that can check Tran, I’d use Chomp. Kommo-o has other things going for it like checking Cinderace, Rilla, Urshifu, Daunt, and Kart. However we start to run into problems similar to Buzzwole but worse. Kommo-o has no reliable recovery meaning it will be overwhelmed by constant hits, especially since 3/5 of the mons mentioned can Knock it and cripple it for the rest kf the game, Wishport Clef has less room on teams simply cause Urshifu is such a prominent force. Will Kommo-o get better if Urshifu gets banned? Maybe, but as of now it doesn’t have a good enough niche to be in the same rank as Volcarona, Gastrodon, and Skarmory.

View attachment 304956
B- > C+:
Amazing vs HO but ass vs every other archetype. Every one and their mothers run bulky waters on their teams. Has a hard time splashing itself on any team other than Rain. The influx of RH, Zapdos, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin gives it a hard time in even staying alive, let alone breaking past defensive cores. No reason this should be higher than Azumarill.

View attachment 304958
C- > UR:
How is this mon still ranked? Every good team runs either one or two fairy types, steel types, or both. Requires way too much support where it’s better to just slap a better breaker like Lele or Magearna. It’s only niche is in TR and even there it’s better to use mons that can actually make progress. Nuff said.
Support everything u said whole heartedly as they r my thoughts too
 

Zneon

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Been a while since I did noms, going to put a few out there.

Tyranitar to B+

I don't really think Tyranitar is really all that good I have to say. It's one of the best answers to Spectrier we have but I feel it doesn't really fit on teams outside of Sand that well at all. Its best matchup is against Spectrier and Dragapult which is the main reason why you would use it outside of being a Sand setter but it doesn't really check a lot of the other stuff all that well. Its so easy to take advantage of because defensive sets are very passive, which is really bad considering it has awful matchups against a vast majority of the Pokemon in S to B+ and considering that its one of the few ways to beat Spectrier in the tier, defensive sets are the go-to right now, and because of this I really only think this Pokemon is good on Sand. Just a pretty underwhelming Pokemon compared to the stuff in A- and I feel it warrants a drop.

Mandibuzz to A-

Going to bump this again because I feel Mandibuzz isn't that good and warrants a drop to A-. The more the meta goes on I feel the more it faces stiff competition with Hydreigon. Hydreigon has great offensive and defensive utility which gives it great matchups against Spectrier still while also actually checking stuff like Heatran, Zapdos and Nidoking fairly well. Mandibuzz is a very passive hazard remover compared to the others because really Foul Play and Knock Off are really the only ways it makes progress, and its another problem when its pretty tight on move slots. It wants Toxic because it wants to make progress outside of Foul Play but it wants Knock Off because getting rid of items are amazing forms of progress but it needs Foul Play for stuff like Rillaboom and SD Chomp. I really feel Mandibuzz just isn't a Pokemon I would consider A right now.

Porygon2 to UR

Porygon2 is just really bad. Landorus-I got banned a super long time ago so I don't see why you would use it outside of Trick Room, and it doesn't really fit onto TR all that well considering that we have better Trick Room setters unless you want one that beats Spectrier even though it isn't guaranteed to beat Spectrier because of Sub. It feels like a complete waste of a team slot on any other team style though, there's no reason to use this over Blissey unless the added offensive presence of P2 is what you like I guess due to its overreliance on its Eviolite and extreme susceptibility to hazards and status. Porygon2 just doesn't do anything noteworthy and it feels like a complete waste of a teamslot except on very specific TR teams, and thus it shouldn't be ranked at all.

Regidrago to UR

I agree with this, Regidrago has no tangible niche. It makes basically 0% progress against any team with a bulky Steel-type or a Fairy-type which every team has, and its such a one-dimensional Pokemon that the opponent is very likely to keep that bulky Steel- and Fairy-type alive to make sure Regidrago makes no actual progress. It doesn't even fit on Trick Room teams which it is supposedly the only playstyle it fits on and even then it cannot really find a place there. Alolan Marowak, Melmetal and Glastrier are examples of Pokemon that are better on TR. Nothing else to add that wasn't already said and Regidrago is just an atrocious Pokemon. I feel its removal from the VR should reflect that.
 

Gomi

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ay im tired

other ppl's noms
:bw/porygon2: to UR Hard Disagree
I'm not convinced a mon that hard checks Garchomp+Lando-T, counters Spectrier, maintains decent momentum with teleport, absorbs Heatran's Magma, and abuses Bliss for ports extremely freely is bad enough to warrant URing. Its an okay blanket wall that admittedly suffers from being Knock bait and I've seen some really solid teams utilize this mon's unique combination of anti Heatran+Anti offensive ground measures.

:bw/gastrodon: to B+ Disagree (but like not that much)
This pokemons fine but accommodating it is kinda awkward and choosing between checking Ace and Melm w/ Physdef or Zapdos and Nidoking w/ Spdef is kinda agonizing. I think it really excels on the specific Balance/Fat builds that can fit it, but those feel few and far between, especially when you consider how rigid defensive structures are still. This passive slug is kind of a pain to slot onto a team without draining all your momentum hard or leaving you with a gaping hole for something like Lele Torn etc. to exploit imo.

:bw/Heatran:to S Hard Disagree (again :p)
This things good. Magearna good? absolutely not lol. The mons got a mild case of 4mss on most of its sets and absolutely loathes Magma Storm's inconsistency, which you practically need to run regardless because of how powerful the mon's trapping is. Choice is alright but pretty much made of porcelain due to Eruption, and Spdef is splashable and fantastic yea but the aforementioned Magma Storm inconsistency+mild 4mss on top of relying on Lefties recovery tends to leave it spread very thin at times, especially since fitting protect currently is pretty much impossible. I just can't see this being Mage levels of good, at all.

own noms
:bw/Blaziken: to B-
I think this mons pretty ok, but when your competition is Cinderace, one of the most versatile offensive threats in the entire tier that fits on damn near everything amazingly, you're not gonna have the best time. The only playstyle I feel this mon really excels on is Screens, everywhere else I just end up going "Why am I not using Cinderace?" and then I drop it for Ace. Setting up is a pain, and once you get going it still has to deal with flare blitz being practically impossible to drop and pretty much always clicked because of Clef being everywhere, which cuts into its longevity a lot. its just meh really, not alot to say :(

:ss/cinderace: to S
Speaking of Cinderace, WOW this pokemon is incredible. Gunk+U-turn+Pyro Ball+Sucker/Low Kick/HJK alone should get this mon into S, but it offers so much more than that. 4 atks on HO is a really devastating way to force immediate offensive pressure and BO/Balance adores this mon's mix of speed control, pivoting, and great longevity due to boots and a pretty good inherent typing. You can mix and match this mon to fit your team with practically 0 effort, it's just so splashable. It's so rare to build a team and not recognize this mon would patch up like 20 flaws with it immediately, its ridicolous really.
:bw/Gyarados: to UR
A worse Salamence with a speed tier that leaves it Rk'd by scarf lando, a typing that leaves it rk'd by Rillaboom, AND it has even more moveslot issues somehow while being safely checked by like every Kart, Rilla, Zapdos, Mandibuzz, and Ferrothorn? Just what I wanted! how can you even be worse than Salamence and still be ranked lmao
 
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Pory2 has Trick Room/Teleport with no volt turn weakness that also sets up TR against things that can really screw up Trick Room; Spectier, Dragapult, and Hydreigon. Its also a great blanket check to stuff like Garchomp, Nidoking, and Dragonite. Its pretty solid on those teams.

Compared to the Slowbros, Magearna, Hatterene, and Pory2, if anything Uxie and Cresselia are the odd ones out. Uxie doesn't really have place on TR teams anymore. HDBs are everywhere, Defog is common too, and we have a TR Magic Bounce user now, so the Stealth Rock niche isn't really that big of a deal. Teleport buff is also a blow to Memento, it's generally superior in most cases, while U-turn is even worse. Cresselia is a bit better since she has Lunar Dance, but its best use was against stall, which is not in the best spot right now and Hatterene also has Healing Wish.
 
I do know that SD Kartana can punish bulkier teams with ease, but A tier. I just think that it is high for Kartana when, and I'm saying this as a Kartana fan, when Garchomp with Scale shot + Sword Dance outclasses him due to the ability outspeed scarfers after Scale Shot boost and having access to Edge Quake as well. I may have been overstating the impact of Cinderace and Mandibuzz, but I still believe that he is outclassed by some breakers and scarfers. But he is immune to toxic so that may make him better vs Stall)

EDIT :- Never mind, read post #84 and found out why he was A. Thank you.



Ah. Thanks for telling me that. Somehow I always managed to switch in my Cinder on an expected Stealth Rock. I thought Court Change did see some surprise usage. Guess I was wrong. Thanks.
Have you seen kartana running less atack to get a speed, well I have seen kartana do it. And when people think they can let kartana a million sd because they think that they can revenge kill it later, I thought that set was bad but is dangerous if played correctly.
Also kartana is definitely A, is a breaker that dangerous no matter what set it runs and beats many defensive core (except wole, but this mom is dying out)
 
:bw/Heatran:to S Hard Disagree (again :p)
This things good. Magearna good? absolutely not lol. The mons got a mild case of 4mss on most of its sets and absolutely loathes Magma Storm's inconsistency, which you practically need to run regardless because of how powerful the mon's trapping is. Choice is alright but pretty much made of porcelain due to Eruption, and Spdef is splashable and fantastic yea but the aforementioned Magma Storm inconsistency+mild 4mss on top of relying on Lefties recovery tends to leave it spread very thin at times, especially since fitting protect currently is pretty much impossible. I just can't see this being Mage levels of good, at all.
Heatran is able to pressure the entire metagame with magma storm, protect, earth power and taunt. Nothing in the tier wants to take ~40% over the course of 2 turns to magma storm and the ability to trap many def walls and shut them down via taunt is huge. Like even pokemon that can threaten it out like garchomp, hydreigon, and recover latios all can take a magma storm but get worn down over the course of the game, via toxic and other forms of pressure. Nothing in the tier wants to stay in on a heatran due to how good magma storm is with the combination of taunt or toxic to wear down the opposing team even further. Like we have softchecks like moltres, Peliper, and swampert who can all take a couple magma storms and recovery it via roost but being toxic'ed is such a death sentence to a defensive mon like moltres and pelliper who need to stay alive over the course of the game for moltres its to pressure contact moves but thats hard to do when toxic is cutting into you while pelliper needs to stay alive to set rain and needing to burn through way more roost than it should. Heatran may be S- but its defenitely better than most of A+ tier due to its ability to work in almost any situation.
 

Gomi

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Heatran is able to pressure the entire metagame with magma storm, protect, earth power and taunt. Nothing in the tier wants to take ~40% over the course of 2 turns to magma storm and the ability to trap many def walls and shut them down via taunt is huge. almost any situation.
Never denied this, but for one, this set you listed is completely walled by Spdef Hydreigon, Moltres, gets destroyed by EQ gking, can't break Ground Waters without extremely risky plays with taunt, hates Ttar, etc. which is fine because you can slot in toxic and wear down most of those pretty quickly, but by doing that you limit how many pokemon you can actually trap and harm your overall longevity significantly by dropping Tect, which goes back to what I said about it having mild 4mss earlier, choosing between SR Tect EP Toxic and Taunt after the obligatory Magma can be very difficult.

. Like even pokemon that can threaten it out like garchomp, hydreigon, and recover latios all can take a magma storm but get worn down over the course of the game, via toxic and other forms of pressure.
This depends on the set at hand and also goes both ways. Heatran is extremely susceptible to hazard chip and Knock, which a number of the pokemon it wants to handle or trap carry. Between Rocks chip and whatever minor damage you do as it comes in, Heatran can be pressured into an uncomfortable cycle of chip until its just not healthy enough to preform its wallbreaking/rocker duties. Obviously you can play around this and it isn't invalidated by this, but it is a genuine flaw that you have to manage while using it.

Heatran may be S- but its defenitely better than most of A+ tier due to its ability to work in almost any situation.
:clefable: agonizing to switch into, multiple fantastic sets, balance jesus and generally just one of the most splashable pokemon around
:ferrothorn: one of the only viable spikes setters period, amazing defensive typing, really awkward to switch into due to Knock+Leech
:cinderace: incredible metagame defining offensive pivot that can straight up break in certain MUs quite well, multiple viable sets on top of great longevity helps as well
:toxapex: one of the most defining defensive pokemon ever, I shouldn't have to explain this one lol
like is it really that much better than these? best of A+ maybe but straight up just noticeably above these altogether is pushing it.
 
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Heatran chooses between toxic and protect. Both have their benefits in which toxic pretty much counters all of it would be checks, and protect allows you to take less damage from blissey and gain more recovery and gain the ability to scout tech moves and choices pokemon. Well yes, that is a "NO SHIT" moment where a pokemon with no reliable recovery is going to get worn down over the course of the game and that its a temporary wall to many special attackers.

1) clefable, yes its annoying but it only has one set that stands out from the rest and thats phys def rocks because urshifuis so oppressing
2) i dont think ferrothorn is that viable in my personal opinion because knock is everywhere and relying on leech for every bit of recovery is kinda bad and its gonna suffer even further from it and the attacks that are thrown at it
 
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