Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [Read post #235]

Let me just say, Im happy that mons like Gengar, G-Moltres, Celesteela & Bulu got ranked. I know C+ isnt that great, but I honestly find these mons to be really good at what they do & if used correctly, they become a threat. I understand having a niche wont rank you high, so their placement makes sense.
 
:spectrier: A+ -> S

I feel that spectrier is the most influential pokemon for team building. You absolutely need to run a dark or normal type on your team in order to have a chance against it. If it gets a couple kills in a battle, it's essentially unstoppable. It can run Sub/NP/Disable to work around checks or run scarf and be virtually impossible to revenge kill.
 
Ferro over Toxapex doesn't look good
Slowbro in A+ tier when it has one meme-y role with futureport and its scald / defensive set is outclassed by Pex is a little iffy
Pult in A rank for all the negative press it receives is interesting
Kartana is under utilized given its ranking here compared to its ladder presence
Moltres feels high compared to something like Corviknight maybe its offensive presence helps it?
Slowking is high for a one dimensional mon
The whole B+ tier seems right and Magnezone feels under utilized given its placement in these rankings
The rest seems fine but C+ has a lot of really strong mons I could see some moving up. I would agree that every mon on the list is viable aside from maybe Xatu and Shedinja. While I've seen both in OU I still question their viability or usefulness and with Xatu it could be my inexperience with the mon giving me that impression.

my .02 as someone who mainly spectates.
 
Dracozolt should be in the b instead of b+. It's reliant on sand. I know it has bolt beak and has a decent attack stat and it has coverage against ground types. It has a mediocore speed tier and can be easily revenge killed out of sand.
Forgot to add that it gets chipped by rocks and life orb
 
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Thanks to the VR team for putting this up! May I ask why is Swampert not higher? It seems more consistently useful to me than most of the stuff in B rank, as it's one of the best users of a slow pivoting move in the tier, and is one of the few decent checks to heatran and magearna. I would say it is better than Gastrodon at the very least.

On a different note, what makes this metagame so different than gen 6 and gen 7 OU (or even nat dex) so that Nidoking is ranked this high? I get that beating clef and pex is more important than ever, but aside from that what changed? I fully understand that those metagames are different and that talking about them is not really the point of this thread, but I fail to see what makes Nidoking so good here and so underwhelming in other metagames, so I thought I would ask anyway.
 

Finchinator

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I know this has been asked for but I don't think we've got a reasoning as to why swampert is in B rather than B+ or even A-.
Also, as I said before, this and many other of the questions I have opened this thread up to will be answered tonight (or tomorrow for Europeans). Thanks for the patience and I’ll be sure to get to everything :)
 

Katy

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Dracozolt should be in the b instead of b+. It's reliant on sand. I know it has bolt beak and has a decent attack stat and it has coverage against ground types. It has a mediocore speed tier and can be easily revenge killed out of sand.
On the topic of :dracozolt::

I think its place in the VR is deserved, sure it relies on Sandteams, but its is a really great tool on Sandteams but it does what it is supposed to do very reliable and well. Ever since it got Sand Rush, it shot up in usage and gained from there on a good Winrate and found itself on a plethora of Sample Teams already for its breaking potential withz almost unresisted coverage in Dragon, Electric, and Ground. Bolt Beak hits every Pokemon pretty hard unless it is a Ground-type which is immune to its electric stab, or Ferrothorn, which has the defensive assets to take a Bolt Beak. But therecomes the coverage in play, Draco Meteor can hit Ground-types like Hippowdon and Landorus-T pretty hard, whereas Flamethrower can hit Ferrothorn and Excadrill and plenty more Steel-types such as Kartana for a super effective damage. Earthquake can hit everything else in the tier for a great damage output, as the mixed Set allows it to handle all its checks in a way that they have to fear its coverage or the electric/dragon stabs.

Dracozolt is a force to be reckoned with, as it can easily wear down a plethora of Pokemon in the tier very reliably with its mixed coverage and Life Orb-boost and with the Sand Rush-boost it isn't easy to revengekill either. Dracozolt should stay in where is is, because it is a great tool and asset on Sandteams which want to have a breaker, that can help its teammember Excadrill out in breaking through bulky Steel-types such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn. I would keep Dracozolt in B+.
 

Spyro

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Was Heatran considered for S? I really feel like Heatran should be S just because how splashable and how good of a defensive Pokemon it is and it's signature move Magma Storm lets it wallbreak so well. It's not bad offensively either with Scarf and Specs being pretty good as well.
 
The fact Heatrans consistency in some game is reliant on Magma Miss should leave it at A+. It is such an inconsistent move but is used so it can trap fat but at least its one of the few good stops to Volcarona. Matchup against rain is also horrendous like go ahead and just sack it at that point. ScarfSpec sets dont really push it over the edge either personally.
 
My one question is why salamence is unranked? I can't really argue against this assessment since I haven't used or seen salamence a lot and I know that it is mostly outclassed by other dragons but it must surely have some kind of niche in OU or does it really have nothing going for it?
 

Spyro

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My one question is why salamence is unranked? I can't really argue against this assessment since I haven't used or seen salamence a lot and I know that it is mostly outclassed by other dragons but it must surely have some kind of niche in OU or does it really have nothing going for it?
It faces competition with Dragonite who has a much easier time setting up and better chances at getting in multiple DDs because it can Roost back to Multicale. The addition of Hurricane is a nice addition to Salamence but it faces competition with Zapdos, Tornadus, Moltres and again Dragonite in that department. It is still usable in OU just hard to justify using when there are other options.
 

Zneon

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My one question is why salamence is unranked? I can't really argue against this assessment since I haven't used or seen salamence a lot and I know that it is mostly outclassed by other dragons but it must surely have some kind of niche in OU or does it really have nothing going for it?
Because it doesn't really have a tangible niche, its entirely outclassed by Dragonite as a Dragon Dance sweeper due to Multiscale, giving it more setup opportunities to circumvent its bad defensive typing, while being outclassed as a Dragon-type wallbreaker by Garchomp due to its better typing offensively and defensively, giving it more opportunities in a sense that it forces more stuff out. Salamence doesn't have this and its worse bulk and moveslot issues coupled with an awful defensive typing and you got a Pokemon that has no niche over Dragonite other than Moxie, which doesn't really help its case as it is still very hard to justify on teams.
 
I know this has been asked for but I don't think we've got a reasoning as to why swampert is in B rather than B+ or even A-. Its a fantastic wall that can utilize slow momentum with flip turn, and helps check a lot of mons like excadrill, blaziken, dracozolt, landorus-t, and more. It's definitely just as good as something like hydriegon or dracozolt in this metagame, if not even better.
It faces heavy competition from loads of mons, such as Lando as the team's ground type, pex as a team's bulky water type, and the plethora of excellent rockers in the tier.
Offensively it's alright with a band. It's one of the stronger offensive water types that can function without rain and it has good coverage. But it's still slow and other mons can make use of a choice band much more effectively (mosa, shifu, boom).
Defensively it's eh. It lacks recovery making it more susceptible to hazard and status damage. Because of this it's also forced to run leftovers meaning it can't use rocky helmet like many other physical walls in the current meta.
Phys def can check melmetal, cinderace, lando, drill, blaziken and dragonite which is great. But you're still 2hkod by mosa and shifu. And once you're chipped you get 2hkod by everything.
Spdef can take a hit from mons like spectrier, nidoking and latios, but pert isn't recovering that health back. So when they come back for round 2 pert's gonna die and you're gonna be sat there wishing you brought a better specially defensive water type. Oh and btw it gets 2hkod by specs zap hurricane.
Also, you'd expect your ground type to be checking your opponent's electric type, but it always gets 2hkod by specs koko grass knot, and it can't touch zap without ice punch or stone edge, which only feature on AV and band sets.
As a defensive pivot you have the excellent slowtwins who, have recovery, regenerator, boots, future sight and teleport. And they check almost all of the same mons that pert checks and more.
There are cases where pert will be the only mon that can fulfil a team's needs. Being a ground type, rocker, bulky water and defensive pivot all in one gives you more freedom when building. However, pert's flaws are bad enough to the point where they make it worse than almost every other alternative in most cases.
tl:dr has a niche, good role compression, generally outclassed due to its lack of recovery and offensive options (that don't compromise its defensive capabilities).
 
Corviknight B+ > A-

Firstly, it is a fantastic defogger. It can directly switch in and defog against common rockers with it's pressure unless they are running a set to beat it in particular. For instance offensive rockers like SD Garchomp and Lando can get by all the other defoggers with Stone Edge. Garchomp can only hope to beat Corviknight with SD Fire Fang (Non boosted fire moves or even boosted Stone Edges can't get through it) and Lando with Smack Down. The former mostly can't afford it and the latter is niche. If they just start to SD multiple times, then Corviknight can even be threatened by Stone Edges but you can just Uturn at that point and they won't have the luxury to do that again after the damage from first encounter. Defensive Defoggers simply get stalled with pressure in the long game unless they have their own pressure mon. Lastly Heatran and Nidoking with Flamethrower and rocks are indeed problematic. Heatran is especially difficult but it is just one mon and is a notoriously good rocker which gives just about every Defogger grief with Toxic, Magma Storm or Taunt while the latter is rare, has no longevity and is frail. In a longer game Nidoking can't keep rocks up.

Secondly, it is a great pivot /glue mon. It is able to check a large amount of top tier offensive threats such as Melmetal, Kartana, Excadrill, previously mentioned Garchomp and Landorus, Rillaboom, Latios, Tapu Lele, Scarf Spectrier etc. While some of these mons can bust though with a lot of setup or a supereffective choiced move, the beauty of Corviknight is that it can just Uturn out before they are able to reach such levels of power and go into the appropriate revenge killer. In general, Corviknight is incredible just in pivoting around dangerous choice mons or strong mons in general. For instance, even against mons like Nidoking or Tapu koko it can come in on non-fire/ electric move and pivot or hard switch out into the appropraite mon. Other mons that Corvi can help pivot around include, mosa, specs magearna, NP torn, etc. This pivot ability makes it much less passive then it might look and it still is not a pushover when it comes to damage. Brave bird can do chunks to even bulkier mons like Kart and Lando. This mixed defensive ability is amazing and not many mons possess it. Checking Specs Lele and Banded Kart in the same game is an achievement within itself. One EV spread I would like to base some calcs off is this one: EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD with any defense boosting nature and leftovers. This set notably survives +2 LO Jolly Fire Fang from Chomp after rocks 96% of time. It survives +2 LO Jolly Kart Knock after rocks always and it can survive LO Modest Mosa's Ice beam into Shock Wave or QD into Shock Wave after rocks however it can't survive Shock Wave into Shock Wave or even QD into Focus Blast, though. All the above mons I listed, were based on this set in particular. Another crazy thing it can do is that can PP stall even banded Urshifu or Specs Spectrier 1v1 but on switch ins, it does get 2HKOed.
Because of this pivot ability against such a large part of the meta game it pairs exceptionally well fast choiced mons like Spectrier, Latios, Mosa, Urshifu, Rillaboom etc. bringing them easily on mons like Clef, Fini, torn, Ttar which can be difficult to switch dirctly into.

These are my major points in favor of Corvi. Other defoggers like Mandi, Moltres, Zapdos and Torn are all afraid of Knock off and Toxic, moves which some rockers make use of and thus resulting in them beating these defoggers long term. They either don't have pressure/ don't run it and all can't dare Defog against SD Edge Lando or Chomp. These factors make it so that Corvi is arguably the best, most consistent defogger in the tier. None of them can fill the mantle of slow pivot either. They are fast pivot. Also these mons simply can't check both ends of the spectrum. Mandi has to Spdef to check Spectrier and Zapdos or Moltres simply can't take Psychics or Dark Pulses because they don't have the luxury to split defenses. Torn T doesn't have the luxury to run any defense because it needs it's speed. Magnezone is the main hinderance to Corviknight but that has not picked up enough usage to directly threaten Corvi's viability as a reliable defogger and you can switch to Shed Shell if it becomes too popular. One thing that these birds do have over Corvi is better offensive presence be it with knock off or foul play or Nasty Plot or coverage or just higher offensive stats. Also as I previously mentioned that these birds don't run pressure because they have even better abilities in the 30% contact abilities which give them ability to status other mons along with even some moves they have which Corvi completely lacks.

But Corviknight is not exactly a sitting duck. This brings us to the last point. Corvi can run a mean Sub Bulk Up set. This set is pretty effective in the current meta game. The only Hazer is Pex and it faces some competition from mons like Fini, Bro and Pert, mons which a lot of teams use as their water (A knocked off, burned/paralysed pex can be defeated anyways) and the phasing is not that common with Hippo and Garchomp carrying it seldom and Skarmory being rare itself. This leaves it the opposing team in a situation where they have to take it on head on. It completely feasts on balances that have core like bro, clef, mandi etc. Tran which was a great counter to the standard set suddenly becomes set up bait once it's 4 magma storms are depleted against sub roost. You have to knock off to beat it however if taunt so you can repeatedly chip with brave bird. Moltres and Zapdos, 2 fellow birds are admittedly a pain and have to be toxiced but if they are the only counters on the team, Corvi can simply pressure stall repeatedly and eventually take the game away. Volt switch Zap and Mystical Fire Moltres don't even stand a chance. It can even chip down down mons like specs Koko, Trick Latios, Cind with Brave Bird etc if it doesn't want to set up against them. This set is very uncommon in the current meta game because it loses 2 of it's best attributes in being a pivot and defogger and it now requires support instead of providing it. This set is, thus, not the most easy to use spashable mon to use but on the right team with sufficent support like Heal bell, mons to cripple the above mons and be a good enough defensive backbone so that Corvi can take it's time to win, then it truly shines like no other mon could (Except Mag but we won't talk about that).
If waiting to set up is not your cup of tea, you can cause a lot of disruption with sub taunt . If you just want to beat pex and hippo harder taunt bulk up is also an option. Body Press Iron defense allows you to beat all physical attackers under the sun. All these are the things it can do but honestly the first 2 sets are the best. Even more honestly the first set is the only set you will run 80% of time but these last sets have that surprise factor that makes them deadly. It is hard to pass up such a good defogger/ pivot but that sub bulk up set is not to be slept on. The point of all other sets is that it can do something other than just defog and Uturn. These bulk up sets in particular give it actual power. These sets are not nearly as consistent as the first one and lose it's best attributes but they have a lot of surprise and game winning potential. They have to be accounted for too.

Guys this was my first post I made about a ranking to be changed. I really don't know if I followed the correct format or if this was too long but I was able to somewhat say most of the things I wanted to about it. I am not exactly a wizard with words but I hope I was able to make some points worth considering.
 
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Gomi

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Pretty much agree with all of this VR, just some minor things I personally disagree with.

:primarina: I can't really fathom what niche this Pokémon has with specs being so slow and competing heavily with gearna and cm sets competing with Tapu Fini, who has better Bulk, Taunt, and Misty Terrain. if there's something im missing here i'm happy to be corrected.
:pelipper: Rain as a whole feels a tad low for how much pokemon like Tornadus-Therian and Thundy-t (whose also really really low imo) improve its fat MU. I get its not as good as an anti offensive playstyle atm, with HO packing the potential auto win in QD Mosa and tons of Priority like Urshi Suckers, but I think its generally more well rounded in this metagame compared to its awful anti Fat measures in previous incarnations of the metagame, which essentially just boiled down to getting the most you possibly can out of an SD daunt. If anything, I think it should go back to B, being potentially steam rolled by Spectrier barring Barraskewda sucks but its not so bad that the whole playstyle should sink a ranking from the previous metagame, at least that's my view on it.
:cinderace: and :melmetal: should swap places IMO but I understand why they are where they are, Cinder competing with Mosa is not an easy feat and Melm's low usage definitely doesn't make its amazing offensive MU any less notable, I just personally get more out of putting Ace on my team than Melm and find Ace more splashable overall bc of how Melm competes with other steels with more utility, like Heatran and Ferro.

Edit: Also I personally think :Spectrier: is worthy of S- if that's a ranking that'll happen bc i definitely see it as a step above A+ but not on par with Clef, Mage, and Mosa. Mons crazy important in the builder and crazy good in battle, with a huge amount of set variation and an awful to switch into Combination of Ghost Stab and Will-O-Wisp, not to mention Grim Neigh to punish sacks. Having a crazy Statline with respectable bulk and a ridiculous speed tier helps.

It'll be interesting to see how all of this changes throughout the generation.
 
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While I definitely agree that Rotom-H is a lot weaker than it was pre-dlc, especially with new checks like Swampert, Garchomp and Heatran in the tier, I don't think C+ is accurate for it. Its ability to check common sets of a lot of specific top offensive threats (Melmetal, Magearna, Torn-T, Dragonite and Sand Drill) keeps it valuable to me as a defensive pivot, and while its offensive sets have become generally outclassed by faster electric types like Zapdos and Koko, it has enough supportive presence with Defog and Toxic that I believe it can still provide for it's team. I'm definitely at least curious to know why it's being ranked so low.
 
Since we're allowed to ask questions I'm curious as to why is Salamence unranked? Is it considered 100% outclassed by dragonite? I figured it was about on par with dragonite though the usage stats (and these rankings) do not agree. It does seem to get about as much usage as a lot of the other C+ to C- ranked mons in the 1695 and 1825 stats though so there must be a group of people that are getting use out of it.
 

Ruft

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Since we're allowed to ask questions I'm curious as to why is Salamence unranked? Is it considered 100% outclassed by dragonite? I figured it was about on par with dragonite though the usage stats (and these rankings) do not agree. It does seem to get about as much usage as a lot of the other C+ to C- ranked mons in the 1695 and 1825 stats though so there must be a group of people that are getting use out of it.
It faces competition with Dragonite who has a much easier time setting up and better chances at getting in multiple DDs because it can Roost back to Multicale. The addition of Hurricane is a nice addition to Salamence but it faces competition with Zapdos, Tornadus, Moltres and again Dragonite in that department. It is still usable in OU just hard to justify using when there are other options.
Because it doesn't really have a tangible niche, its entirely outclassed by Dragonite as a Dragon Dance sweeper due to Multiscale, giving it more setup opportunities to circumvent its bad defensive typing, while being outclassed as a Dragon-type wallbreaker by Garchomp due to its better typing offensively and defensively, giving it more opportunities in a sense that it forces more stuff out. Salamence doesn't have this and its worse bulk and moveslot issues coupled with an awful defensive typing and you got a Pokemon that has no niche over Dragonite other than Moxie, which doesn't really help its case as it is still very hard to justify on teams.
 
Why is Victini ranked so highly? What niche does it have? Not asking to be rude, I just literally haven't ever seen it.
 
Thanks for putting the VR together. It looks pretty dang good, but I have a couple questions.

1) Why is Regieleki up in B? I understand that it has a niche, but that seems a bit high, when you consider that stuff like Aegislash and Swampert are in the same tier, both of which seem significantly more consistent. The offensive choice sets are pretty up and down, considering how match-up fishy they are, as you’re effectively fighting 5v6 if the opponent has a ground type still around. Is it based on the screens set? I haven’t seen a whole lot of that, so I’m curious about how effective it actually is in practice.

2) Why is Latios in A-? I know that’s a high tier already, but it genuinely feels like A material to me. It’s a very strong option in this metagame, being able to hit almost literally everything for very solid damage. With pursuit being gone, it’s difficult to punish it that effectively, and it can deal good damage to a majority of the higher tier mons, even stuff like Mandibuzz and Clefable if it gets a boost off first. It also helps that Dragapult, although still good and relatively common, has dropped off a small bit because of how good Spectrier is. Is it because of Spectrier’s ubiquity? Although Spectrier is an issue, it also can’t switch in without risking a power psychic/psyshock or draco meteor, so I don’t see how that alone would prevent it from going up to A.

Thanks for the continued commitment to transparency.
 

Spyro

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Why is Victini ranked so highly? What niche does it have? Not asking to be rude, I just literally haven't ever seen it.
I didn't decide Victini's placement but for me it's easy to see why. It checks the top 3 in S, it also checks Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Melmetal. Victini also just has no true counters. It all depends on what it's running since it gets a coverage move for pretty much everything. Heatran? Scorching Sands. Swampert? Grass Knot. Garchomp, Landorus, Dragonite? Glaciate. Toxapex? Bolt Strike/Psychic. It's signature move V-create is also a nuke and hits harder than an Explosion without having to die in the process. The addition of Heavy Duty Boots also makes it's job easier since it doesn't have to worry about Rocks cutting down on it's longevity.
 
Hello! I just have a quick question, why is there such a large difference between the rankings of regular Slowking and Galarian Slowking? While I understand that reg Slowking does answer nidoking, as well as some other mons, Slowking-G is helpful against fini and other fairies. Additionally, while it is true that usage does not always equal viability, Galarian Slowking moved up to OU in the recent shifts, likely due to the high usage of fairies currently, while regular Slowking remained RU. Is there a reason Galarian Slowking is ranked so low at B-, while regular Slowking is ranked A-?
 
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