Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[AliceSprite]

Shedinja C- > C+

Shedinja has a very strong niche on stall builds that has the ability to destroy many teams, particularly rain and bulky offense, especially with a defensive backbone of Pokemon like Blissey and Toxapex. It beats many top threats such as Magearna, Pheramosa, Melmetal, Slowbro, Kartana, and Tapu Fini. Many teams don't have the tools to break Shedinja and it's defensive cores, most top threats have a hard time dealing with it which is why I think it is pretty decent on stall in this meta.

 

[Finchinator]

Pheromosa is being suspect tested! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-7-killer-queen.3674268/

We will be keeping this thread open for it, however, as the metagame is still developing frequently!

 

[Chemical_Jackfruit]

Hello! I just have a quick question, why is there such a large difference between the rankings of regular Slowking and Galarian Slowking? While I understand that reg Slowking does answer nidoking, as well as some other mons, Slowking-G is helpful against fini and other fairies. Additionally, while it is true that usage does not always equal viability, Galarian Slowking moved up to OU in the recent shifts, likely due to the high usage of fairies currently, while regular Slowking remained RU. Is there a reason Galarian Slowking is ranked so low at B-, while regular Slowking is ranked A-?

Future sight + port and better physical bulk

 

[musiquepkmn]

Yo Fusien whatsup, I was gonna ask that question. Maybe it is because slowking uses teleport rather than an av set with galar slowking for momentum? I don't know and am sorry I could not help.

Also, when the VR list was created, Glowking had not risen to OU yet and had not largely caught on with a large portion of the community. Of course, the council knew about it, but it didn't have the widespread recognition and acknowledgement it has now. Finch has previously said that when the next revoting session comes around Glowking will likely rise.

 

[PK Gaming]

Random aside, but I think it's possible to get away with using just about any Pokemon in the current OU metagame. Seriously, team build potential is absolutely off the charts now, to the point where I can't think of an OU metagame that comes even remotely close to having this many # of viable Pokemon.

So don't get too discouraged or frustrated when a Pokemon you think is viable doesn't quite make the list. Now more than ever, "unranked" doesn't strictly mean unviable imo. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make rank recommendations of course, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[Spyro]

Random aside, but I think it's possible to get away with using just about any Pokemon in the current OU metagame. Seriously, team build potential is absolutely off the charts now, to the point where I can't think of an OU metagame that comes even remotely close to having this many # of viable Pokemon.

So don't get too discouraged or frustrated when a Pokemon you think is viable doesn't quite make the list. Now more than ever, "unranked" doesn't strictly mean unviable imo. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make rank recommendations of course, but it's something to keep in mind.

Yeah pretty much anything in UU is usable in OU. A good portion of RU and even some Pokemon down in NU as well. I think Pokemon like Salamence are not ranked not because it isn't viable (it obviously is) but because the top OU Pokemon are just so good and consistent and easier to use in comparison to them. You have to be a better player the more crappy the Pokemon is in order to make it work in OU. All the S Pokemon here and A+ are Pokemon that are easy to use and effective even if you are mediocre or even a player that's barely starting out. So yeah even a Pikachu could work in OU but it will never be ranked because it is so difficult to make it work if it's even possible at all. So yeah I think ease of use and consistency plays a big role in a Pokemon's ranking.

 

[Shurtugal]

A few things stick out to me. I don't understand why Arctozolt is in C- rank, when hail is actually a very strong playstyle. With a quick glance, I can't really say it belongs alongside Pokemon like Mantine & Regidraco, Pokemon in this tier don't have the win condition factor that Arctozolt can have in a match. Under hail, it can outspeed majority of the meta, and it can hit very hard, allowing it to muscle through many offensive teams. It can't be argued that this Pokemon's potential outclasses the other Pokemon in the same rank as it -- I would at least put it on par with Sun, which is placed in the tier above it. Therefore, I think Arctozolt should be placed in C Rank.

While I'm looking at the C- Tier, another Pokemon that doesn't belong there: Porygon 2. Trick Room is a very powerful playstyle, that alone would put it outside of C- tier, but the real important thing to take note about is how consistently Porygon 2 can beat Spectrier, which is really important in a metagame that doesn't have many viable Normal types in it. If you look closely, you can see Uxie placed in C rank just above Porygon 2, but I think they probably belong in the same tier, so once again I think Porygon 2 should rise to C Rank.

Lastly, for rises, I think Mew should rise into C+ Tier. Mew is a very verstaile Pokemon, while it's probably known for it's Nasty Plot set, I think part of what makes it strong is that it's one of the best options for SR + Spikes on a Heavy Offensive team, with a lot of moves it can make use of (Explosion, Encore, Taunt, Knock Off, etc.) which makes it very splashable, especially in a metagame where offense is thriving and stall is on sort of the backburner (that will probably change after a few more suspect tests though). While you can argue that Heavy Duty Boots makes hazard stacking a bit weaker, Mew is very strong at baiting common defensive Defog Pokemon and setting up a winning situation (Taunt/Explosion) for its HO team, so i really think it's more powerful than the Ranking Thread is currently giving it credit for.

As for Pokemon that I think need to be ranked down, I would probably say Magnezone into either B tier or B- Tier. It's a really pathetic Pokemon when you put it next to other things in there such as Blaziken and Hawlucha, which are behemoths. You could argue that Magnezone is as strong as its partners (Rillaboom), but I really think it doesn't have an easy time doing its job properly. CM Magearna uses Magnezone as setup fodder, Heatran doesnt care about it, Scizor can outspeed it and Superpower it, you can really only trap Skarmory (which isn't used much), Ferrothorn, or Corviknight. It's true that it's good at trapping these two Pokemon, and I do think it has its uses, but I don't think that puts it at level with the other things in there. Heck, this tier list is implying Magnezone is stronger than Volcarona, Urshifu, Swampert, Hippo, and I really think that's not accurate at all. I'd even advocate it for B- to put it next to Tapu Bulu, but the strength of Haw/Rilla & Magnezone can't be understated, so B tier could also be fair.

While I don't neccessarily want to push for these things, I think Spectier & Melmetal are very powerful and could be worthy of S Rank. It is my belief that these Pokemon put a much bigger strain in the teambuilder than the other A+ Pokemon do, in particular Spectier, as it warps the metagame around it & is one of the primary reasons Blissey is so high up in the tier list (and the reason it has to carry Shadow Ball, an attack that is otherwise completely worthless on it, which is evidence of how centralizing it can be in the builder). Melmetal is just really fat and powerful, perhaps it could stay in A+ because of its very small speed tier, but it's still really difficult to manage, and I think it has a shot for S tier as well.

 

[TURBODERP]

Random aside, but I think it's possible to get away with using just about any Pokemon in the current OU metagame. Seriously, team build potential is absolutely off the charts now, to the point where I can't think of an OU metagame that comes even remotely close to having this many # of viable Pokemon.

So don't get too discouraged or frustrated when a Pokemon you think is viable doesn't quite make the list. Now more than ever, "unranked" doesn't strictly mean unviable imo. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make rank recommendations of course, but it's something to keep in mind.

Fully agreed! An example of an untiered mon that I think has a niche place on certain teams as an anti-meta threat is BU Toxicroak, which was used pre-DLC2 (taken to high ladder too) as a counter to most Urshifu and a good way to break Clefable+Pex+Ferro cores. In the current meta, it does the same Urshifu/Clef/Pex/Ferro handling, but also preys on Suicune and non-EQ Swampert (which is a thing, sometimes they run Protect over EQ), and Rain to a degree (watch out for Hurricane).

Other untiered mons that have niches on the right teams (IMO of course) are Centiskorch (good answer to Sun, useful defensive typing, and Fire Lash+Knock Off is a nasty combo), Salamence (HDB Defog/Wish should be explored after Phero leaves), Flygon (role-compressing pivot), and Lycanroc (offensive monster with LO Tough Claws).

Again, I doubt most of these mons are worth of being ranked beyond C(-), but unranked doesn't mean unviable even at high levels of play! Get out there and experiment!

 

[Obsidian297]

Could someone explain why is A, I feel it just feels lacking compared to last generation and definitely underwhelming compared to the other A tier mons and why Urshifu-S isn't S?

 

[glava222]

Could someone explain why is A and why Urshifu-S isn't S?

I'm going to guess Urshifu-S isnt't S because it's just a bit too slow to check some of the faster mons running around, and it's not bulky enough to take super effective hits without defense investment, also while it can break through almost anything, once it is choice locked a lot of different mons can take hits from it, which forces it to switch out often, which means it gets worn down by hazards. It's also a bit predictable, so it doesn't have that "I guessed the set wrong and got swept" factor like phero and mage,the other offensive S tiers have.
NOTE: this is not reflective of my own personal opinions on which tier urshifu should be, just an attempt to explain why I tought the people who make the VR put it where it is; I personally can see it being either A+ or S.

About kartana, you should probably make clear whether you think it was rated too high or too low to know how to respond XD

 

[Shaymin Sky]

After experimenting at top ladder with Garchomp I have retracted my originally thought of garchomps viability placement being questionable, and it isn't even because of Garchomps other sets such as tank chomp, or sd life orb. Sand veil brightpowder is easily by far the best set IMO, before setting up with garchomp was risky as well as lack luster because things like Clefable or Rillaboom could check/counter it. With Substitute SD and the evasion boost setting up is almost free at this point. For starters the calculations for moves in sand goes as follows.
100%=67%
90%=60%
80%=54%
70%=47%

That difference is enormous you are essentially at best trying to land a worse focus blast, and anything below that 67% range is nearly unrealistic. Pair this with substitute spam and the oppurtunities to get off a game ending sweep are actually IN your favor. This may seem very gimmicky but with proper timing of sending out your garchomp and this set does wonders, even in very high levels of play. Here are some replays to back up what I've said.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237865465 turn 17, this is without sand veil and bright powder played a huge role in this game making the accuracy of fleur cannon 81% instead of 90.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237856312-xwes82796crdnsemgd86o0p1ooy0qc6pw turn 28, two dodges of darkest lariat in sand allow me to get up free substitute into a swords dance to seal the deal in that game. The crazy thing is due to you having 4 substitute chances the odds of this happening are actually likely with how low 67% is.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237848943-0yk0zw9a5hpru915bycvvpt846hjdgcpw turn 13, self explanatory in a normal game sd life orb Garchomp would have done literally nothing due to his combination of Rillaboom+Clefable but because of the low accuracy of 67% he had no chance at preventing set up.

I highly suggest reconsidering your opinions on garchomps A+ placement due to the strength of this set. It is much more realistic to start up a sweep with how common clefable/rillaboom is negating regular chomps sweeps
Garchomp @ Bright Powder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot

 

[Negative Charge]

After experimenting at top ladder with Garchomp I have retracted my originally thought of garchomps viability placement being questionable, and it isn't even because of Garchomps other sets such as tank chomp, or sd life orb. Sand veil brightpowder is easily by far the best set IMO, before setting up with garchomp was risky as well as lack luster because things like Clefable or Rillaboom could check/counter it. With Substitute SD and the evasion boost setting up is almost free at this point. For starters the calculations for moves in sand goes as follows.
100%=67%
90%=60%
80%=54%
70%=47%

That difference is enormous you are essentially at best trying to land a worse focus blast, and anything below that 67% range is nearly unrealistic. Pair this with substitute spam and the oppurtunities to get off a game ending sweep are actually IN your favor. This may seem very gimmicky but with proper timing of sending out your garchomp and this set does wonders, even in very high levels of play. Here are some replays to back up what I've said.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237865465 turn 17, this is without sand veil and bright powder played a huge role in this game making the accuracy of fleur cannon 81% instead of 90.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237856312-xwes82796crdnsemgd86o0p1ooy0qc6pw turn 28, two dodges of darkest lariat in sand allow me to get up free substitute into a swords dance to seal the deal in that game. The crazy thing is due to you having 4 substitute chances the odds of this happening are actually likely with how low 67% is.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237848943-0yk0zw9a5hpru915bycvvpt846hjdgcpw turn 13, self explanatory in a normal game sd life orb Garchomp would have done literally nothing due to his combination of Rillaboom+Clefable but because of the low accuracy of 67% he had no chance at preventing set up.

I highly suggest reconsidering your opinions on garchomps A+ placement due to the strength of this set. It is much more realistic to start up a sweep with how common clefable/rillaboom is negating regular chomps sweeps
Garchomp @ Bright Powder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot

I strongly agree with Chomp being A+, it's a top tier threat. Great type, great bulk and great power. It is also one of the few offensive heatran checks.

An outlier here is Hawlucha in B- which just isn't accurate with how it performs in the meta. It is obviously best on full HO with screens support but it's just so fast you can throw HP evs on it to tank stuff like Clef moonblast (132 HP evs is a nice benchmark). It's not like you're without chances for setup opportunities running this thing, Lando, Rilla and Ushifu are on every team. The fact it can revenge Phero is also pretty nice. Being imposter proof (this is a big deal for offense) and able to synergize with all four terrain setters (RIP Bulu) also opens up building possibilities beyond KokoLucha . Misty and Psychic seed can potentially allow you an extra sd against Clef which is nuts. We all know the calcs, if your clef takes any chip it's often GG. In previous metas you needed roost or taunt as a 4th move but right now Stone Edge blows up Moltres and heavily dents Zapdos (who should be A+ for sure). While Stone Egde is the best 4th move overall, there are games I'm just crossing my fingers my opponent doesn't have taunt or roost (taunt is sands worst nightmare). I'd say B or B+ is appropriate for lucha.

 

[TheArchangle]

After experimenting at top ladder with Garchomp I have retracted my originally thought of garchomps viability placement being questionable, and it isn't even because of Garchomps other sets such as tank chomp, or sd life orb. Sand veil brightpowder is easily by far the best set IMO, before setting up with garchomp was risky as well as lack luster because things like Clefable or Rillaboom could check/counter it. With Substitute SD and the evasion boost setting up is almost free at this point. For starters the calculations for moves in sand goes as follows.
100%=67%
90%=60%
80%=54%
70%=47%

That difference is enormous you are essentially at best trying to land a worse focus blast, and anything below that 67% range is nearly unrealistic. Pair this with substitute spam and the oppurtunities to get off a game ending sweep are actually IN your favor. This may seem very gimmicky but with proper timing of sending out your garchomp and this set does wonders, even in very high levels of play. Here are some replays to back up what I've said.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237865465 turn 17, this is without sand veil and bright powder played a huge role in this game making the accuracy of fleur cannon 81% instead of 90.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237856312-xwes82796crdnsemgd86o0p1ooy0qc6pw turn 28, two dodges of darkest lariat in sand allow me to get up free substitute into a swords dance to seal the deal in that game. The crazy thing is due to you having 4 substitute chances the odds of this happening are actually likely with how low 67% is.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1237848943-0yk0zw9a5hpru915bycvvpt846hjdgcpw turn 13, self explanatory in a normal game sd life orb Garchomp would have done literally nothing due to his combination of Rillaboom+Clefable but because of the low accuracy of 67% he had no chance at preventing set up.

I highly suggest reconsidering your opinions on garchomps A+ placement due to the strength of this set. It is much more realistic to start up a sweep with how common clefable/rillaboom is negating regular chomps sweeps
Garchomp @ Bright Powder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot

Yeah, it sounds gimmicky but when you can spam subs I think people underrated how percentages stack. You have a 67% chance of hitting any 100% accurate move, the odds of hitting two in a row plummets to 44.9% putting the odds in your favor. If you want to use all 4 subs, the odds of hitting 4 in a row is just 20%. Meanwhile, you’re actually chipping a lot of Pokémon from the sand lmao

Pairing with Rillaboom can provide passive recovery, and a wish passer or something with healing wish for example will allow you to run the shenanigans again lmao

 

[Negative Charge]

Zapdos for A+

Big bird is such a potent and useful part of building that it definitely deserves to be A+ in my eyes. The sheer utility it is bringing to the table as a bulky defogger or as an offensive breaker really can’t be paralleled by anything else; it has a unique role. Both abilities are great and have their place on various builds. The typing is amazing and can act as a blanket check to many physical threats (And is one of the only good switchins to NP torn) The amount of paralysis this thing typically spreads is just disgusting, it’s one of the most frustrating mons for me to face. Do you really wanna sit in front of this with your Clef to risk a potentially game losing para? My opponents have also trained their Zapdos to always confuse with hurrricane too, which is really fun for me (also realized today that Hurricane accuracy isn’t decreased by sand, wtf how did I not know this??)

It can forgo discharge for volt switch to keep up momentum which is nice for a defogger. Being an electric type that beats ferrothorn is great and not instantly dying to edge like Moltres does is another reason to pick it when choosing which bulky bird your team will be running. Offensive sets don’t get enough recognition but Hurricane Weather Ball Thunder is insane coverage and is more immediately threatening under rain than Thundurus-T is IMO.

 

[Hax%]

Why is eleki B rank when it literally forces every team to run at least one ground type and usually 2? Tbh it's the only mon that's actually extremely threatening on team preview and it forces the opponent to play in certain ways so they don't just get ohko'd. I will admit though that screens eleki is trash cause it's hard walled by lando and plus we have the keys for that and then you can just steal the screens with ace which I actually have a replay of that's hilarious. I also feel that because the coverage is so bad you're able to freely run specs since you don't need the speed from scarf and you don't need orb because it has no reason to switch moves most of the time. Sub eleki is also a major threat because the main way offense can deal with it outside of the required ground types is having sucker punch mons like ace but sub actually punishes those mons by giving the eleki a free turn and they don't have the option of making that read because if they do and it's a specs eleki then they just die. I'm all for broken offensive mons but the issue is when they force you to play certain ways and then kill you anyways. Most teams that I consider good rn have 2 grounds minimum, my current team has Nidoking/Lando which are good mons on their own sure but it's also like the old dracovish argument where there are no resists to eleki only immunities and even if I switch in my lando or nidoking on volt switch they can just hard switch because there's no way to punish the eleki at that point since pursuit is gone not to mention that hazards are bad on most teams because of boots and court change. I have 270+ games on this ou ladder and the only 2 mons that I feel are an actual problem are Mosa which is being suspected now or soon at least and Regieleki. I feel like Stall is easy enough to break that it's not oppressive because Iron Head magearna makes chansey not a counter but it still only does 20% and at the same time if I play bad I will likely still lose without severe hax like a bunch of crits and burns and earth power spdef drops and whatnot, but eleki 2hkos magearna even after mag has a cm set up: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. +1 204 HP / 44 SpD Magearna: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, not to mention that mag is used to break chansey and clef as well so it's not always going to be at full and if it's at 70% that 54.3% becomes a 89.1% and all this is assuming I've already been in and set up, thunderbolt does 73% min if I haven't set up already. I've heard arguments from people that grounds are always good to prevent volt switching but most of the time it doesn't do this much damage, eleki does 57-67% to this mag when mag is +0 and specs koko does 43-51% to the same mag IN TERRAIN. Koko you can run your ground for or potentially even just a resist since you really don't have to worry about hidden power anymore. Ferrothorn takes 25% so I'll give it that but that's not typically run on offense outside of rain. Like am I really supposed to believe Blaziken is B+ and Eleki is B? There's 0 reason to run Blaziken as long as Ace is here for a physical attacker and on the special side we have Volcanion which is also a water immunity so it helps shut down rain rather than being shut down by rain

 

[Ox the Fox]

Slowking-Galar to A-

Slowking-G is easily one of the best defensive pivot mons right now and was ranked way too low initially. We all know how bulky the assault vest set is and how many relevant mons it can switch into like Zapdos, Magearna, Tapu Koko, and Clefable but I think where it really differentiates itself from other defensive mons is how threatening it is offensively. The combination of poison/fire/water move coverage can be deceptively hard to switch into especially when you consider secondary effects. Future sight is the icing on the cake that can be clicked on turns where there isn't a clear progress making move, as it stores and creates value for the future. I feel like it was initially put in the B- rank before it had been fully utilized, and now that more people are catching on it's clear to me that it's drastically under ranked and deserving of being in A-. John W recently used it in the first round of Smog Tour where this thing absolutely picked apart his opponent's team which is proof of its viability even in high ranking games.

This is the main set I'm talking about:
Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 128 SpA / 128 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Sludge Bomb
- Scald
- Flamethrower

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

Why is eleki B rank when it literally forces every team to run at least one ground type and usually 2? Tbh it's the only mon that's actually extremely threatening on team preview and it forces the opponent to play in certain ways so they don't just get ohko'd. I will admit though that screens eleki is trash cause it's hard walled by lando and plus we have the keys for that and then you can just steal the screens with ace which I actually have a replay of that's hilarious. I also feel that because the coverage is so bad you're able to freely run specs since you don't need the speed from scarf and you don't need orb because it has no reason to switch moves most of the time. Sub eleki is also a major threat because the main way offense can deal with it outside of the required ground types is having sucker punch mons like ace but sub actually punishes those mons by giving the eleki a free turn and they don't have the option of making that read because if they do and it's a specs eleki then they just die. I'm all for broken offensive mons but the issue is when they force you to play certain ways and then kill you anyways. Most teams that I consider good rn have 2 grounds minimum, my current team has Nidoking/Lando which are good mons on their own sure but it's also like the old dracovish argument where there are no resists to eleki only immunities and even if I switch in my lando or nidoking on volt switch they can just hard switch because there's no way to punish the eleki at that point since pursuit is gone not to mention that hazards are bad on most teams because of boots and court change. I have 270+ games on this ou ladder and the only 2 mons that I feel are an actual problem are Mosa which is being suspected now or soon at least and Regieleki. I feel like Stall is easy enough to break that it's not oppressive because Iron Head magearna makes chansey not a counter but it still only does 20% and at the same time if I play bad I will likely still lose without severe hax like a bunch of crits and burns and earth power spdef drops and whatnot, but eleki 2hkos magearna even after mag has a cm set up: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. +1 204 HP / 44 SpD Magearna: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, not to mention that mag is used to break chansey and clef as well so it's not always going to be at full and if it's at 70% that 54.3% becomes a 89.1% and all this is assuming I've already been in and set up, thunderbolt does 73% min if I haven't set up already. I've heard arguments from people that grounds are always good to prevent volt switching but most of the time it doesn't do this much damage, eleki does 57-67% to this mag when mag is +0 and specs koko does 43-51% to the same mag IN TERRAIN. Koko you can run your ground for or potentially even just a resist since you really don't have to worry about hidden power anymore. Ferrothorn takes 25% so I'll give it that but that's not typically run on offense outside of rain. Like am I really supposed to believe Blaziken is B+ and Eleki is B? There's 0 reason to run Blaziken as long as Ace is here for a physical attacker and on the special side we have Volcanion which is also a water immunity so it helps shut down rain rather than being shut down by rain

The problem with eleki is that it's not a mon that forces a ground type on each team. It's that EVERY good team right now has a ground type. You're never going to see a good team without one of Lando-T, Garchomp, Swampert, Nidoking or Excadrill. And that's just OU. Ground types are so common and it's not because of Eleki. It's because the ground types are so good even without Eleki. Also I'd say Blaziken is SOOOO much more better than Eleki since at the very least Blaziken can choose what counters it with coverage moves such as TPunch, EQ or Knock off. Eleki on the other hand, can't.

 

[Finchinator]

Why is eleki B rank when it literally forces every team to run at least one ground type and usually 2? Tbh it's the only mon that's actually extremely threatening on team preview and it forces the opponent to play in certain ways so they don't just get ohko'd. I will admit though that screens eleki is trash cause it's hard walled by lando and plus we have the keys for that and then you can just steal the screens with ace which I actually have a replay of that's hilarious. I also feel that because the coverage is so bad you're able to freely run specs since you don't need the speed from scarf and you don't need orb because it has no reason to switch moves most of the time. Sub eleki is also a major threat because the main way offense can deal with it outside of the required ground types is having sucker punch mons like ace but sub actually punishes those mons by giving the eleki a free turn and they don't have the option of making that read because if they do and it's a specs eleki then they just die. I'm all for broken offensive mons but the issue is when they force you to play certain ways and then kill you anyways. Most teams that I consider good rn have 2 grounds minimum, my current team has Nidoking/Lando which are good mons on their own sure but it's also like the old dracovish argument where there are no resists to eleki only immunities and even if I switch in my lando or nidoking on volt switch they can just hard switch because there's no way to punish the eleki at that point since pursuit is gone not to mention that hazards are bad on most teams because of boots and court change. I have 270+ games on this ou ladder and the only 2 mons that I feel are an actual problem are Mosa which is being suspected now or soon at least and Regieleki. I feel like Stall is easy enough to break that it's not oppressive because Iron Head magearna makes chansey not a counter but it still only does 20% and at the same time if I play bad I will likely still lose without severe hax like a bunch of crits and burns and earth power spdef drops and whatnot, but eleki 2hkos magearna even after mag has a cm set up: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. +1 204 HP / 44 SpD Magearna: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, not to mention that mag is used to break chansey and clef as well so it's not always going to be at full and if it's at 70% that 54.3% becomes a 89.1% and all this is assuming I've already been in and set up, thunderbolt does 73% min if I haven't set up already. I've heard arguments from people that grounds are always good to prevent volt switching but most of the time it doesn't do this much damage, eleki does 57-67% to this mag when mag is +0 and specs koko does 43-51% to the same mag IN TERRAIN. Koko you can run your ground for or potentially even just a resist since you really don't have to worry about hidden power anymore. Ferrothorn takes 25% so I'll give it that but that's not typically run on offense outside of rain. Like am I really supposed to believe Blaziken is B+ and Eleki is B? There's 0 reason to run Blaziken as long as Ace is here for a physical attacker and on the special side we have Volcanion which is also a water immunity so it helps shut down rain rather than being shut down by rain

Screens sets are the only reason it is ranked to begin with. It forces a Ground on to teams, but so do various other Pokemon using Volt Switch such as Magearna. In general, using an Electric immunity has been close to mandatory for a number of generations now, so Regieleki is not forcing anything out of the ordinary. If it were just for the offensive sets that you claim to be so good, Regieleki would likely be in the C ranks.

Think about how common Electric immunities are (and absolutely not just because of Regieleki). Landorus-T, Garchomp, Excadrill, Nidoking, Hippowdon, and Swampert are all solidly OU Pokemon. There are a half dozen other viable immunities, too, which I am not even going to bother touching on. Think you are off base here.

 

[658Greninja]

View attachment 297538
Slowking-Galar to A-

Slowking-G is easily one of the best defensive pivot mons right now and was ranked way too low initially. We all know how bulky the assault vest set is and how many relevant mons it can switch into like Zapdos, Magearna, Tapu Koko, and Clefable but I think where it really differentiates itself from other defensive mons is how threatening it is offensively. The combination of poison/fire/water move coverage can be deceptively hard to switch into especially when you consider secondary effects. Future sight is the icing on the cake that can be clicked on turns where there isn't a clear progress making move, as it stores and creates value for the future. I feel like it was initially put in the B- rank before it had been fully utilized, and now that more people are catching on it's clear to me that it's drastically under ranked and deserving of being in A-. John W recently used it in the first round of Smog Tour where this thing absolutely picked apart his opponent's team which is proof of its viability even in high ranking games.

This is the main set I'm talking about:
Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 128 SpA / 128 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Sludge Bomb
- Scald
- Flamethrower

Definitely agree with you on that but I want to add a few things. Not only is it able to switch into a plethora of strong special attackers, but it is also one of the best counters to Trick Clefable which is a huge pain for Balance teams. However if Clef tricks Glowking, it’ll only be able to throw out Moonblasts until it dies or gets Knock’d. This is huge for breakers that are halted by Clef like Urshifu, Mosa, DDnite, and a few others. Due to Glowking’s insane special bulk with AV and Regenerator, it can switch into dangerous special attackers like Specs Latios, Lele, and Mag to scout out moves and swap out into something else while ofc recovering some of it off with Regen. This is similar to how Pex/Mandi cores worked in DLC1.

 

[Freezerman]

Ik it may sound stupid but
B -> B+
let me get straight to the point here volcarona is still one of the best Sweepers in the metagame, checking and abusing pokes like buzzwole and Rillaboom while beating most balance and stuff. B+ for sure. I have some replays of it beating basic balance once a fire resist is gone. Id also say volcarona is your best hope against sun and HO featuring Rillaboom so thats another matchup in which it shines. It does very well against fast offensive teams that cant take +1 flamethrowers from 0 spatk volcarona

 

[Hax%]

Screens sets are the only reason it is ranked to begin with. It forces a Ground on to teams, but so do various other Pokemon using Volt Switch such as Magearna. In general, using an Electric immunity has been close to mandatory for a number of generations now, so Regieleki is not forcing anything out of the ordinary. If it were just for the offensive sets that you claim to be so good, Regieleki would likely be in the C ranks.

Think about how common Electric immunities are (and absolutely not just because of Regieleki). Landorus-T, Garchomp, Excadrill, Nidoking, Hippowdon, and Swampert are all solidly OU Pokemon. There are a half dozen other viable immunities, too, which I am not even going to bother touching on. Think you are off base here.

I never said it's the only mon that forces grounds, nor nor did I say that any of the typical grounds that are used are bad and I believe I mentioned that I use Lando and Nidoking because they are solid mons and I never disputed that. It's a good idea to run grounds for a number of reasons I never said running grounds was bad ever, my point was that anything that isn't immune say clefable or something that gets tricked a ring target takes a billion damage from it. Personally I love facing screens eleki cause I just court change and I don't have to worry about specs being stupid. The mon has flaws yes, no one said it doesn't. But that doesn't mean it isn't a stupid pokemon. People run setup sweepers like volcarona because after the 1-2 mons the opponent has that can stop its sweep are dead there isn't much they can do to stop it and I don't see how Eleki is any different other than it doesn't have to set up and it naturally outspeeds even some scarfers. Screens Eleki is honestly one of the worst pokemon I have ever played against and you really expect me to believe it's in the same tier as Skarmory which I've never even fought in over 250+ prolly even 300+ games and what would it even do stack hazards when 2 of my mons resist rocks and 2 have boots and lando's a natural spike immunity and then after you waste 5 turns setting these up I court change once and then you've wasted all that time for nothing, same as the keys and apparently the only good eleki set is the one where I'll just steal you're screens cause like you said that's apparently the only good set. Volt switch mag typically doesn't sweep once the grounds are gone unless it's some weird calm mind set but why run cm when you're just gonna switch. Garchomp A+ is a joke, cause we have lando to weaken it then we go clef and you can't touch me especially because unaware. I'll give you lando A rank cause personally I think it's really solid, I've used it to weaken chomp and even Rillaboom for my other mons so yeah I'd say it's solid. Then there's gastro which tbh I've only ever seen on rain and generally think is bad because I can't even recall a recent game with one, hippo which can't touch Lando unless it's Ice Fang which does it even the room for because toxic/eq/slack/rocks-ice fang or something weird, Pert I've never seen be good tbh but if it is I'll hold that cause I don't know enough tbh though I assume it loses to boom and whatnot, Nidoqueen I've literally never seen because Nidoking is just so good, zeraora I've also never seen and it holds the distinguished title of "eleki check that also loses to ground types", seen quag a few times but I don't remember it being even remotely close to a threat.

If you're just gonna say I'm wrong and not explain your reason behind why I'm wrong then what's the point of this? Literally the last thing you say is basically "you're wrong and I know why you're wrong and it's so obvious that I don't have to explain it because you're just too stupid to see it". You mention the electric immunities like every team has 8 of them on top of the core 6 and that's just not true. To me almost all of your arguments are from a position of Eleki alone vs 6 other mons which yes any mon is gonna suck in that position but that's not how this game works. The eleki is never forced to do anything, it can come in 500 times and just hard switch every single time because no one really runs hazards and there's no pursuit to chip it. If I switch in my lando on your volt switch you know what happens? The turn ends and then I'm forced to either stay in or switch to another ground which gives you a free hard switch to something like ferro so if I do pivot I get punished for putting YOU in a bad position and you're seriously telling me that a mon that has the ability to force these situations every single time it gets in is better off running dual screens?

 

[WolfishOne]

I never said it's the only mon that forces grounds, nor nor did I say that any of the typical grounds that are used are bad and I believe I mentioned that I use Lando and Nidoking because they are solid mons and I never disputed that. It's a good idea to run grounds for a number of reasons I never said running grounds was bad ever, my point was that anything that isn't immune say clefable or something that gets tricked a ring target takes a billion damage from it. Personally I love facing screens eleki cause I just court change and I don't have to worry about specs being stupid. The mon has flaws yes, no one said it doesn't. But that doesn't mean it isn't a stupid pokemon. People run setup sweepers like volcarona because after the 1-2 mons the opponent has that can stop its sweep are dead there isn't much they can do to stop it and I don't see how Eleki is any different other than it doesn't have to set up and it naturally outspeeds even some scarfers. Screens Eleki is honestly one of the worst pokemon I have ever played against and you really expect me to believe it's in the same tier as Skarmory which I've never even fought in over 250+ prolly even 300+ games and what would it even do stack hazards when 2 of my mons resist rocks and 2 have boots and lando's a natural spike immunity and then after you waste 5 turns setting these up I court change once and then you've wasted all that time for nothing, same as the keys and apparently the only good eleki set is the one where I'll just steal you're screens cause like you said that's apparently the only good set. Volt switch mag typically doesn't sweep once the grounds are gone unless it's some weird calm mind set but why run cm when you're just gonna switch. Garchomp A+ is a joke, cause we have lando to weaken it then we go clef and you can't touch me especially because unaware. I'll give you lando A rank cause personally I think it's really solid, I've used it to weaken chomp and even Rillaboom for my other mons so yeah I'd say it's solid. Then there's gastro which tbh I've only ever seen on rain and generally think is bad because I can't even recall a recent game with one, hippo which can't touch Lando unless it's Ice Fang which does it even the room for because toxic/eq/slack/rocks-ice fang or something weird, Pert I've never seen be good tbh but if it is I'll hold that cause I don't know enough tbh though I assume it loses to boom and whatnot, Nidoqueen I've literally never seen because Nidoking is just so good, zeraora I've also never seen and it holds the distinguished title of "eleki check that also loses to ground types", seen quag a few times but I don't remember it being even remotely close to a threat.

If you're just gonna say I'm wrong and not explain your reason behind why I'm wrong then what's the point of this? Literally the last thing you say is basically "you're wrong and I know why you're wrong and it's so obvious that I don't have to explain it because you're just too stupid to see it". You mention the electric immunities like every team has 8 of them on top of the core 6 and that's just not true. To me almost all of your arguments are from a position of Eleki alone vs 6 other mons which yes any mon is gonna suck in that position but that's not how this game works. The eleki is never forced to do anything, it can come in 500 times and just hard switch every single time because no one really runs hazards and there's no pursuit to chip it. If I switch in my lando on your volt switch you know what happens? The turn ends and then I'm forced to either stay in or switch to another ground which gives you a free hard switch to something like ferro so if I do pivot I get punished for putting YOU in a bad position and you're seriously telling me that a mon that has the ability to force these situations every single time it gets in is better off running dual screens?

The problem is that regieleki very rarely gets to shine since every team will have a ground, with or without eleki. You're setup bait for chomper, lando-t and drill while also being a huge momentum drain vs swampert and nidoking. And thus regieleki just needs far too much support to be really effective. Also a lot of your points show you haven't really played the meta much. For one thing unaware clef is rarely used outside stall. Ace rarely has the room for court change because of a fantastic movepool. You also state nobody runs hazards lmao when it's probably the ONE thing every viable team has in common. Also the situation you show forgets that lando can just u turn. Saying "oh I just switch" is ignoring the big momentum drain giving them opportunities to set up or whatever

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

I never said it's the only mon that forces grounds, nor nor did I say that any of the typical grounds that are used are bad and I believe I mentioned that I use Lando and Nidoking because they are solid mons and I never disputed that. It's a good idea to run grounds for a number of reasons I never said running grounds was bad ever, my point was that anything that isn't immune say clefable or something that gets tricked a ring target takes a billion damage from it. Personally I love facing screens eleki cause I just court change and I don't have to worry about specs being stupid. The mon has flaws yes, no one said it doesn't. But that doesn't mean it isn't a stupid pokemon. People run setup sweepers like volcarona because after the 1-2 mons the opponent has that can stop its sweep are dead there isn't much they can do to stop it and I don't see how Eleki is any different other than it doesn't have to set up and it naturally outspeeds even some scarfers. Screens Eleki is honestly one of the worst pokemon I have ever played against and you really expect me to believe it's in the same tier as Skarmory which I've never even fought in over 250+ prolly even 300+ games and what would it even do stack hazards when 2 of my mons resist rocks and 2 have boots and lando's a natural spike immunity and then after you waste 5 turns setting these up I court change once and then you've wasted all that time for nothing, same as the keys and apparently the only good eleki set is the one where I'll just steal you're screens cause like you said that's apparently the only good set. Volt switch mag typically doesn't sweep once the grounds are gone unless it's some weird calm mind set but why run cm when you're just gonna switch. Garchomp A+ is a joke, cause we have lando to weaken it then we go clef and you can't touch me especially because unaware. I'll give you lando A rank cause personally I think it's really solid, I've used it to weaken chomp and even Rillaboom for my other mons so yeah I'd say it's solid. Then there's gastro which tbh I've only ever seen on rain and generally think is bad because I can't even recall a recent game with one, hippo which can't touch Lando unless it's Ice Fang which does it even the room for because toxic/eq/slack/rocks-ice fang or something weird, Pert I've never seen be good tbh but if it is I'll hold that cause I don't know enough tbh though I assume it loses to boom and whatnot, Nidoqueen I've literally never seen because Nidoking is just so good, zeraora I've also never seen and it holds the distinguished title of "eleki check that also loses to ground types", seen quag a few times but I don't remember it being even remotely close to a threat.

If you're just gonna say I'm wrong and not explain your reason behind why I'm wrong then what's the point of this? Literally the last thing you say is basically "you're wrong and I know why you're wrong and it's so obvious that I don't have to explain it because you're just too stupid to see it". You mention the electric immunities like every team has 8 of them on top of the core 6 and that's just not true. To me almost all of your arguments are from a position of Eleki alone vs 6 other mons which yes any mon is gonna suck in that position but that's not how this game works. The eleki is never forced to do anything, it can come in 500 times and just hard switch every single time because no one really runs hazards and there's no pursuit to chip it. If I switch in my lando on your volt switch you know what happens? The turn ends and then I'm forced to either stay in or switch to another ground which gives you a free hard switch to something like ferro so if I do pivot I get punished for putting YOU in a bad position and you're seriously telling me that a mon that has the ability to force these situations every single time it gets in is better off running dual screens?

To add onto what Wolfish One said, Swampert is probably the hardest counter Eleki will face since guess what, Swamperts usually useless ability Damp mean Eleki cant go boom against it.

 

[Katy]

immune say clefable or something that gets tricked a ring target takes a billion damage from it.

First off all Ring target is not a viable set, its moreso a fun / meme-set which was recently used by Lord Emvee in a live. But Lord Emvee uses fun teams a lot of times, which doesnt make Ring target tricking more viable. as he doesnt ladder in a so called "tryhard" fashion, he ladders for fun and fun only. So I really dont think ring target is a great viable option, it for sure does some stuff but in overall teams which are build around the Ring target-strategy need plenty of support to work, as you miss a viable itemslot otherwise.

Garchomp A+ is a joke, cause we have lando to weaken it then we go clef and you can't touch me especially because unaware.

Garchomp is in A+ for plenty of reasons. It has many viable sets to capitalize on, those sets vary from SD-Rpcks, to SD+Scale Shot to Tankchomp, and to mixed variants, even scarf can work as a revengekiller as with its great speed tier in 102 it outspeeds a vast majority of the metagame with a scarf. Garchomp has also a great offensive presence with a high attack stat and a great typing to top it. Garchomp deserves the A+ rank as it is one Pokemon, which can profit heavily from Screens as well as a dangerous setup sweeper. Garchomp wont fall off the rank because you have a Lando-T to weaken it. Garchomp naturally has the wide range of sets to make it viable in a lot of aspects and therefore deserving of an A+ rank.

hippo which can't touch Lando unless it's Ice Fang which does it even the room for because toxic/eq/slack/rocks-ice fang or something weird,

With that you're saying Hippo cant touch Lando-T at all, but there is a Toxic right there, which Hippo can dish out to put Lando on a timer and to wear it down over the course of the game. Hippo doesnt necessarily needs Ice Fang to help itself out vs Lando, as Toxic will do its job in the long term.

Pert I've never seen be good tbh but if it is I'll hold that cause I don't know enough tbh though I assume it loses to boom and whatnot

Swampert not only found its way as a Stealth Rock + Pivot option on rain teams and to help vs strong electric types with its great immunity and typing, but it also found its way on other team structures outside of rain, teams which are in need of a great Pivot, which can also lay down Stealth Rocks on the field. And Swampert does that job phenomenally with Flip Turn, Scald, Earthquake and Rocks. Swampert can also easily chose between Physdef or Spedef, whatever the team needs and both defensive assets work well on a mon with a pretty good bulk overall.

Nidoqueen I've literally never seen

Nidoqueen is a nice option as well, in case if you want a little bit more bulk and sustainability and great Toxic Spikes / Rocks-setter with admitingly less powerful sheer force-boosted attacks, but it is enough to weaken teams severly with the same great coverage it has like its male counterpart. Nidoqueen found itself on some teams which are bulky-orientated and T-Spikes helping that team out in the long run to whittle down opponents.
Nidoqueen while not bei on as many teams as Nidoking, still can fullfill nearly the same aspects, allthough with less power behind its attacks, but more bulk. I think you clearly underestimate Nidoqueens capabilities.

seen quag a few times but I don't remember it being even remotely close to a threat.

Quagsire is a great Pokemon with Unaware and longevity in recover and a lot of utility on Stall-teams. Stall-5teams aren't that common right now, but they can still be a viable option, if it is built well.

"you're wrong and I know why you're wrong and it's so obvious that I don't have to explain it because you're just too stupid to see it".

I don't see at any point at any given time that Finchinators post was disrespectful instead it was explained well enough for you in a respectful way with an explanation, he gave you. I don't and can't see as to why Finchinators post is disrespectful at all. He even gave you a hint to think a little bit more Indepth about the qualities of Regieleki, ground type pokemon and other things. He - by any means - did not ever post in a disrespectful manner.

The eleki is never forced to do anything, it can come in 500 times and just hard switch every single time because no one really runs hazards

I think that is just straight up misinformed, the sentiment that no one ever runs hazards. Every team as a hazard-setter be it defensive versions or offensive versions of Lando, be it the Nidotwins, be it Hippo, even some Excadrill run hazards, and it doesnt stop with only ground pokemon running them. plenty of great Pokemon in the tier are capable of running hazards and do so.

By all respect, but your post is very misinformed about the metagame currently. I don't mean it in a disrespective manner, rather in an informative one, to give you hints and new thought process to catch up on. Please don't think my post was meant in a disrespectful manner, I'm just here trying to help you with a lot of points I do see as wrong / misinformed.

Hope that helped you out a bit.

 

[talah]

bored in class, i'll post some thoughts on what i think the VR shud look like before mosa's (hopefully) banned

: S -> A+
it's good, but it's not one of the absolute best pokemon in the meta. it struggles to cover everything it wants to, whether that's utility sets being abusable by a plethora of other offensive and defensive staples, or CM sets not being consistent enough to warrant an S-tier threat.

: A+ -> A
feel like people are hyping Future Sight way too much. slowbro itself is still a good defensive blanket, but using FS means it doesn't get one of several very important utility moves (Ice Beam, Thunder Wave, stuff like that), and using one of those means it doesn't get to run FS (don't use FS without teleport, pls). as for FS itself, yea it's good, it's not impossible to play around.

: A+ -> S
this should also, imo, go alongside a magearna drop to either S- or A+. urshifu isn't quite as good as in DLC1, but it's still incredibly good, and deserves to be seen as The Best next to pheromosa.

: A -> B+
good check to the horse and zapdos, not really consistent enough vs mostly everything else. being forced to run moves to hit the horse is really painful for it, it has a lot less utility than it should; either that or well, you can't touch horse and need additional checks to it, which is undesirable.

: A -> A-/B+
it has a few decent sets, but none that really stand out and put it on the level of something like kartana. teams are naturally going to be equipped to deal with it defensively due to spectrier galloping around, and also offensively bc of pheromosa buzzing around. not really a favorable meta for it.

: A -> A+
lando's just as amazing as ever, sharing a rank with dragapult is honestly criminal. offensive sets with Leftovers, SD sets with Soft Sand, defensive are all great and incredibly consistent at doing what they are supposed to. Scarf is still good, Double Dance is very much viable, etc.

edit: also drop mandi

: A- -> A
extremely potent offensive utility thru Grassy Glide being able to provide pseudo-speed control, able to RK mosa, the horse, -1 garchomp, weakened latios, and more, while still having no real long term checks. zapdos existing is very annoying for it, sure, but zapdos is not at all a consistent switchin. it's just really good lol

: A- -> B+
following slowbro's explanation ^

: A- -> A
NP ended up being overhyped (including by myself!), but the standard Defog / Taunt sets are definitely still good. NP is also really effective when used in weather teams, feel like that's the 'safest' way to use it.

: A- -> B+/B
not a very good pokemon at all, its only real usefulness is as a sand setter. breaking sets are thoroughly underwhelming, defensive sets don't do enough to justify their usage outside of sand.

- i'm not gonna run through the ranks or go in detail, but ill mention a couple more

: B+ -> A-
great check to the horse(obv), good check to nidoking, heatran, zapdos and also more depending on its set.

: B -> B+/A-
excellent soft check and situational switchin into such a wide arrange of pokemon and flip turn means it's always useful. one of the best tools offense got this DLC tbh, i think it's very very good.

: B- -> B/B+
i do not like future sight on this pokemon, i think it should be running psychic instead. it makes an already very potent breaker much harder to switch into, and idk i just am not on the FS hype train at all, lol. we saw the same thing happen in DLC1, where FS got a ridiculous amount of hype (mainly due to Urshifu), and while yes, it was good, it was not an unstoppable force. regardless, AoA is a very solid set and deserves more exploration along with a higher ranking.