Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [Read post #235]

Why is that pokemon blacklisted? what is a blacklist for? just joined the forums! Thanks for the help
A pokemon being blacklisted from viability discussions usually means that it lead to a toxic and/or unproductive discussion every time it was brought up in the past. Why the current blacklist mon is blacklisted in particular though, I don't know. Wasn't here at that time
 

Katy

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Why is that pokemon blacklisted? what is a blacklist for? just joined the forums! Thanks for the help
Blacklisted Pokemon are such Pokemon, which aren't viable, but often appeared in discussions and the discussions oftentimes led to be counterproductive in a shape or forme, but their viability just isn't there. So that makes a Pokemon blacklisted from future discussions entirely to avoid a topic around an unviable Pokemon.

Hope this helped you :)
 
Sylveon is blacklisted because pokeseba spammed viability threads about it because it was his/her favourite Pokemon along with the other Eeveelutions. He/she did this across different tiers, trying to move Sylveon's viability ranking higher every time, and was a very annoying poster. In any case, Sylveon is just straight up bad in this current meta and does not deserve a discussion about its merits.
 
Fair enough, though it is still kinda dumb imo for them to blacklist it for just one annoying person. Then again, it's kinda dumb for said person to do what they did.
Anyway we should stop making counterproductive discussion about Sylveon lol.
 
thanks guys
a little weird that discussions just straight up arent allowed but i get the mods wanting to cut the fat
Don't get discouraged :D , the only discussions that are not allowed are low effort spammy ones without any proof for what you are trying to argue for.
If you are willing and able to give valid explanation for why a pokemon should be included in the Viability rankings you can absolutely do it. But your post should include a description of its' role in the metagame, calcs that reinforce that role, as well as replays showing the mon fullfiling its' niche in games, preferably high ranked ones. A great example of such a post is the lycanroc one in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...king-thread-read-post-84.3674058/post-8683159
If you make such a post, you can be sure it won't be deleted even if the pokemon is not put in the viability rankings.
 

Finchinator

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I’m removing it from the blacklist.

Now stop whining. Or don’t. I can’t control y’all
Sylveon is blacklisted because pokeseba spammed viability threads about it because it was his/her favourite Pokemon along with the other Eeveelutions. He/she did this across different tiers, trying to move Sylveon's viability ranking higher every time, and was a very annoying poster. In any case, Sylveon is just straight up bad in this current meta and does not deserve a discussion about its merits.
Confirming this tho
 
Here is my nomination: :shedinja: shedinja from C- to C

The reasons:
I know that it is almost entirely used on stall teams that are generally thought of as subpar in the current meta. Nonetheless, it is one of the single best pokemon to use on those teams.
1) It walls Magearna. Magearna is very common and very annoying for stall as she has solid longevity due to good bulk, SR resistance, some recovery options and immunity to Toxic. Shedinja however walls pretty much all the viable sets and easily deals with it.
2) It walls Pheromosa no matter the set (edit: except the rare throat chop which you can scout)
3) It deals with most Clefable sets.
4) It blocks all 3 pivoting moves. This is very important as it means that Shedinja can be aggresively switched into a lot of pivots and force them to either attack or switch which makes it harder for opponent to play around your team.
5) It forces opponent into very predictable plays. If you switch it into something like Cinderace U-Turn you know they are going to click Pyro Ball which can easily be taken care off.

All in all Shedinja is of course very niche, but it is definitely unique in that it stop some of the best offensive mons around and due to HDB it can fit into most Stall teams much easier than in previous generation
 
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Finchinator

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Suicune to B+.

Suicune is a really pesky win condition right now. It can be rough in some match-ups, but even in those it is able to spread some burns and check a few things. In the right match-ups, which happens to be most non-Toxapex balance teams, it is able to outright win the game.

I do not believe Suicune is a metagame staple or even a particularly consistent Pokemon, but it has been picking up and usage and due to the sheer upside of it in the right match-up, it belongs to at least be ranked alongside fringe offensive options like Kyurem and Tapu Lele, who both have huge upside, but do not see a ton of usage right now and can struggle in the wrong match-up. It stands out to me in B anyway as that is when you get to see Pokemon that face a ton of competition for their niche and oftentimes struggle because of it, but Suicune faces little competition and still has the upside.

I believe that Suicune in particular benefits from Slowbro/Slowking seeing lots of usage. Unlike Toxapex, they cannot really handle it and teams with one of those two tend to lack Toxapex. Moreover, a lot of common Grass and Electric types get worn out by Scald or are very vulnerable to Scald burns. It is easy for Suicune to devestate those teams in the long haul unless they specifically prepare for it, which most neglect.
 
2) It walls Pheromosa no matter the set.
I might miss something here, but aren't non-qd-sets often running Throat Chop for things like Spectrier? I'm a big fan of Shed in general, and I'd second the rise in viability, but I think this should at least be mentioned
 
I might miss something here, but aren't non-qd-sets often running Throat Chop for things like Spectrier? I'm a big fan of Shed in general, and I'd second the rise in viability, but I think this should at least be mentioned
Physical sets often have to choose between Poison Jab, Throat Chop, and Drill Run, as CC, U-turn, and Triple Axel are pretty much required. From my experience, most run Poison Jab to hit fairies. I have only ever seen a few running the latter two niche moves.
 
Here are my opinions on these mons :D
RISES
635.png
B+-->A
Hydra in this meta is really good, it checks a good amount of mons (heatran,spectrier,nidoking,slowbro) and with solid bulk and utility moves like roost, defog, taunt, it can really help teams make progress, other than that NP Hydra is really good in this meta also. Imo this mon is better than mandibuzz.

645-t.png
A-->A+
Lando is legit so versatile, you can run suicide lead, double dance, scarf, defensive, sd. It provides so much utility and do so much work. This is the OU KING.

892.png
A+-->S-
Urshifu is so freaking good with only 1 counter which is buzzwole. Banded and bulk up and black glasses/LO are such good sets and wicked blow just crits everything. Fairys cant switch in iron head/pjab which is super scary. This mon is freaking good

034.png
A- --> A
Nidoking is such a amazing wallbreaker, it has so many coverage and screws over balance teams. With 1 counter named blissey, Nidoking can use superpower or focus punch for blissey. It also has immunity to toxic spikes and electric types. It also has useful utility moves like taunt, stealth rock, toxic spikes. Amazing mon.

465.png
B --> B+
Tangrowth is super underrated, with rocky helmet and AV sets this mon can check a lot of mons as a grass type. It checks Kartana, Barraskewda, ground types, Clefable, Tapu fini, Slowbro, Tyranitar, Rillaboom, Garchomp and soft check special attackers with AV. Its so good at what it does and also has regenerator and sleep powder, knock off, stun spore. This mon deserves a raise imo


Drops

630.png
A --> A-/B+
Mandibuzz isnt that really good. Its mainly there for checking rillaboom and spectrier (loses to spectrier btw). It gets crippled super easily and knocked really easily. Mandibuzz also hates getting wisped/toxic (which is everywhere) and isnt a good defogger, hydreigon does the job better. This mon isnt that good for A imo.


036.png
S --> A+
Clefable is amazing. Yes, but with nidoking and slowking-galar everywhere it really scares clefable. This mon does have good utility but every team is prepared for clefable. Its just that its not as good as it was in dlc1. It does a good job at what it does. Being a sweeper, wish passing, rocker, utility. Good mon but a lot of things can deal with clefable.
 
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View attachment 299856B --> B+
Tangrowth is super underrated, with rocky helmet and AV sets this mon can check a lot of mons as a grass type. It checks Kartana, Barraskewda, ground types, Clefable, Tapu fini, Slowbro, Tyranitar, Rillaboom, Garchomp and soft check special attackers with AV. Its so good at what it does and also has regenerator and sleep powder, knock off, stun spore. This mon deserves a raise imo
Agreed with everything you said except the part where Tangrowth is an AV mon. Dont get me wrong. I think that Tangrowth is a great mon. But not due to its AV set and more so its Physically defensive set. Every Special attacker right now deals super effective damage to Tangrowth. If you want an AV regenerator, I believe that Slowking or Glowking is better. Let's see the viable special attacker rn

Zapdos
Moltres
Magearna
Heatran
Spectrier
Dragapult
Tapu Fini
Latios
Tapu Koko
Torn-T
Hydreigon
Kyurem
Tapu Lele
Nidoking
Volcarona
Regieleki
Suicune

Of the listed, AV beats or check Spectrier, Dragapult, Fini, Tapu Koko, Hydreigon, Suicune and Regieleki. That's 6/17 mons AV checks. And of these mons, the only relevant ones and common ones rn are Spectrier, Fini, Koko, and Hydreigon. While Suicune is just rising for now and Regieleki is falling hard. That's 4 mons that AV only checks. Meanwhile Rocky helmet checks a lot more mons. Particularly rain staples in Shifu-R and Barraskewda with Possibly Azumarill and Crawdaunt. It also punishes the Turn spam which is soooo prevalent nowadays. It punishes Pert, Lando-T, Barraskewda and Physical Mosa. Rocky helmet also hard checks the prevalent grasses rn in Rillaboom and Kartana and hard checks Excadrill and Non Bulk Up Corviknight.
Edit: Also unlike AV, Rocky helmet can sleep other opposing mons and have its teammates capitalize on it.
 
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I would like to nominate hydreigon for A-.Hydreigon is a which can run threatening sets such as nasty plot scarf and defensive sets. Its nasty plot roost set is very hard to switch into and with dark pulse dragonpulse/draco in powerful stabs along with flash cannon [to hit fairies not named tapu fini] and earth power to hit pex magearna and heatran. Calcs for nasty plot
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 253-300 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 243-289 (62.9 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 481-567 (122 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 243-289 (79.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 333-393 (97.6 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


It naturally outspeeds 95 bst non scarfers and outspeeds bst 100s without +speed or investment and has enough bulk to eat a few hits. Its scarf variant hits 486 speed and outspeeds the dragapult and and zeraoras and also outspeeds +1 dragonite while still being quite a fearsome special attacker.
It has defensive variant which walls spectrier the slow twins and with heal bell support for sludge bomb poison it also walls glowking the great while hitting all of them with stab 125bst dark pulse. It also walls a few things like heatran without toxic seismitoad and sometimes even volcanion. Because its faster than nidoking it cant really act like a check but can act like a thing that can live one and kill if chipped. The defensive set can also kill chipped kyurem tapu lele urshifu landorus and nidoking with the combo of earth power/dark pulse.
 
Of the listed, AV beats or check Spectrier, Dragapult, Fini, Tapu Koko, Hydreigon, Suicune and Regieleki
Saying it "beats" Suicune is also a bit of a stretch; after 2 calm minds, an uninvested Giga Drain doesn't break through Suicune's substitute, and Suicune will win out in a PP war eventually. In order to actually switch in on it, it has to win the 50/50 of Giga Drain to break the Sub or knocking away the lefties on the CM.
AV tang sucks this meta
 
I would like to nominate hydreigon for A-.Hydreigon is a which can run threatening sets such as nasty plot scarf and defensive sets. Its nasty plot roost set is very hard to switch into and with dark pulse dragonpulse/draco in powerful stabs along with flash cannon [to hit fairies not named tapu fini] and earth power to hit pex magearna and heatran. Calcs for nasty plot
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 253-300 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 243-289 (62.9 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 481-567 (122 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 243-289 (79.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 333-393 (97.6 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


It naturally outspeeds 95 bst non scarfers and outspeeds bst 100s without +speed or investment and has enough bulk to eat a few hits. Its scarf variant hits 486 speed and outspeeds the dragapult and and zeraoras and also outspeeds +1 dragonite while still being quite a fearsome special attacker.
It has defensive variant which walls spectrier the slow twins and with heal bell support for sludge bomb poison it also walls glowking the great while hitting all of them with stab 125bst dark pulse. It also walls a few things like heatran without toxic seismitoad and sometimes even volcanion. Because its faster than nidoking it cant really act like a check but can act like a thing that can live one and kill if chipped. The defensive set can also kill chipped kyurem tapu lele urshifu landorus and nidoking with the combo of earth power/dark pulse.
defensive hydreigon But seriously hydreigon is a pretty big threat. Nasty plot life orb boosted draco's threaten a lot aswell with good coverage.
 
Don't get discouraged :D , the only discussions that are not allowed are low effort spammy ones without any proof for what you are trying to argue for.
If you are willing and able to give valid explanation for why a pokemon should be included in the Viability rankings you can absolutely do it. But your post should include a description of its' role in the metagame, calcs that reinforce that role, as well as replays showing the mon fullfiling its' niche in games, preferably high ranked ones. A great example of such a post is the lycanroc one in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...king-thread-read-post-84.3674058/post-8683159
If you make such a post, you can be sure it won't be deleted even if the pokemon is not put in the viability rankings.
I saw the lycanroc post and thought it was really interesting! Thanks for helping so thoroughly!
 
In general I agree with the tier but I think Nidoking should be a bit higher, at least on A tier.

Nidoking is a Pokémon that has between 8% and 9% on 1825+ OU (like for example Slowbro or Excadrill, which are A+ and A) and that, in my personal opinion using Nidoking in the 1800s-1900s it's easily top 15 mons in the tier if you play it correctly.

It has no safe swith-ins excepting Bliss, it 2HKOs basically all of the tier if not KOs. It counters Clefable, and while it's quite fragile, it tanks almost any neutral hit (excepting Urshifu's Wicked Blow)

Some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 307-361 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 273-322 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 413-489 (98.8 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 221-263 (52.6 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



And those are defensive mons, it OHKOs almost every single Offensive mon excepting Spectrier (if not using shadow ball) and Latios (both 2HKO) in the tier.

While I use him on a hazard stacking team Nidoking can be really hard to beat on webs team, specially if you give it Future Sight support and/or Psychic terrain to stop priority.

And this is just with the standard life Orb 4 special attacks sets. It can run fighting coverage for Bliss with his good 102 base attack, it can run taunt, sub, can go scarf for a surprise factor (scarf nidoking outspeeds every single non-carf mon in OU excepting Regieleki, that the only thing it can technically do aganist Nidoking is set up screens or to use Explosion).

Nidoking is a menace in the OU tier, better than for example Kartana or Mandibuzz, and I think it deserves an A tier ranking.


Things I forgot:
- Can set up Rocks, Spikes and Toxic Spikes
- Electric inmunity
- Inmune to toxic Spikes (and removes them)
- Only takes 6% from Stealth Rocks
 
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In general I agree with the tier but I think Nidoking should be a bit higher, at least on A tier.

Nidoking is a Pokémon that has between 8% and 9% on 1825+ OU (like for example Slowbro or Excadrill, which are A+ and A) and that, in my personal opinion using Nidoking in the 1800s-1900s it's easily top 15 mons in the tier if you play it correctly.

It has no safe swith-ins excepting Bliss, it 2HKOs basically all of the tier if not KOs. It counters Clefable, and while it's quite fragile, it tanks almost any neutral hit (excepting Urshifu's Wicked Blow)

Some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 307-361 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 273-322 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 413-489 (98.8 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 221-263 (52.6 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



And those are defensive mons, it OHKOs almost every single Offensive mon excepting Spectrier (if not using shadow ball) and Latios (both 2HKO) in the tier.

While I use him on a hazard stacking team Nidoking can be really hard to beat on webs team, specially if you give it Future Sight support and/or Psychic terrain to stop priority.

And this is just with the standard life Orb 4 special attacks sets. It can run fighting coverage for Bliss with his good 102 base attack, it can run taunt, sub, can go scarf for a surprise factor (scarf nidoking outspeeds every single non-carf mon in OU excepting Regieleki, that the only thing it can technically do aganist Nidoking is set up screens or to use Explosion).

Nidoking is a menace in the OU tier, better than for example Kartana or Mandibuzz, and I think it deserves an A tier ranking.


Things I forgot:
- Can set up Rocks, Spikes and Toxic Spikes
- Electric inmunity
- Inmune to toxic Spikes (and removes them)
- Only takes 6% from Stealth Rocks
Nidoking coverage is soo dangerous. Some even run superpower for blissey. Scarf sets are also dangerous since its speed tier speed ties max speed pheromosa.
 
Nidoking coverage is soo dangerous. Some even run superpower for blissey. Scarf sets are also dangerous since its speed tier speed ties max speed pheromosa.
Funniest thing it outspeeds, not ties. 295 x1.5 = 442.5, while Phero max speed is 441. And yeah it has an incredible moveset. You can even go Focus Punch lmao
 
I would like to nominate hydreigon for A-.Hydreigon is a which can run threatening sets such as nasty plot scarf and defensive sets. Its nasty plot roost set is very hard to switch into and with dark pulse dragonpulse/draco in powerful stabs along with flash cannon [to hit fairies not named tapu fini] and earth power to hit pex magearna and heatran. Calcs for nasty plot
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 253-300 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 243-289 (62.9 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 481-567 (122 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 243-289 (79.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 333-393 (97.6 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


It naturally outspeeds 95 bst non scarfers and outspeeds bst 100s without +speed or investment and has enough bulk to eat a few hits. Its scarf variant hits 486 speed and outspeeds the dragapult and and zeraoras and also outspeeds +1 dragonite while still being quite a fearsome special attacker.
It has defensive variant which walls spectrier the slow twins and with heal bell support for sludge bomb poison it also walls glowking the great while hitting all of them with stab 125bst dark pulse. It also walls a few things like heatran without toxic seismitoad and sometimes even volcanion. Because its faster than nidoking it cant really act like a check but can act like a thing that can live one and kill if chipped. The defensive set can also kill chipped kyurem tapu lele urshifu landorus and nidoking with the combo of earth power/dark pulse.
Only np and defensive hydreigon sets r good and viable,not scarf.Other than that i wholeheartedly agree with ur whole post
 

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