Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
to S or S-
this is probably an exaggeration, but i do genuinely believe that volcarona is one of the most defining pokémon right now. there’s so many situations where it can easily come in and set up, and it’s extremely difficult to revenge kill with enough bulk and/or team support. it has its checks and counters for sure, but i feel like the threat of it sweeping gives it an omnipresent ... presence ... in the meta.
to UR
i hate being that person, but i don’t feel the need to rank zard. maybe it’s just me, but it doesn’t feel like charizard is a primary option on sun due to the presence of eruption heatran + growth venusaur (volcarona in the sun has some major upside too). i get that’s it’s strong af, but i don’t think charizard likes the fact that a lot of premier wallbreakers are faster than it & can easily dispose of it. also, with heatran being super popular, charizard disliked that too.
i get its appeal on paper, but if the premier sun setter & sweeper are considered c tier pokémon, then i don’t feel confident in ranking a secondary option on a tertiary weather option.
to A
blissey has a lot of versatility, and has a ton of ways to support different team builds. stealth rock + aromatherapy/twave can support offense really well, and blissey also works on defensive teams like everyone expects. with it being a special wall, it does like the fact that special attackers like volc are on the rise (even if its mu vs volc is inconsistent). it’s similar to slowking in the way it soaks up special attacks and can support a variety of playstyles, while also having ridiculous longevity. btw, i’m kinda curious if spdef-invested blissey has any value. maybe it can switch into specs kyurem no problem?? idk lol
i really respect your bold opinions, and i know that you’re a better player than i’ll ever be, but this isn’t really a convincing replay imo. you win a 1v1 vs ferro, which is cool, but your opponent also had a free freeze-dry that would’ve killed. the opponent’s ferrothorn also could’ve fared much better in the 1v1 if they had more experience vs primarina and opted for gyro ball instead of knock off.
i get that primarina has some potential as a wallbreaking lead, but i kinda feel like it gets easily disposed of by common wallbreakers. rillaboom and kartana ohko it obviously, and other breakers like bisharp can win the 1v1 (is faster + lives moonblast + 2hko’s)
Please feel free to pick apart replays and tell me why it’s so unusual?
specifically her metronome set can pick apart cores if the team isn’t packing blissey.
the fact that she’s a one truck pony means I can’t nominate higher than A. But she’s a better wall breaker in the current meta than most other special attackers. I’d argue better than calm mind + lum berry Lele, as it effortlessly tackles unaware clefable as well.
Even when she’s deadweight, it can be used as a switch in to a surprising number of moves, see the above replay for examples. I sacked 2 and came back from a 4v6 despite having a useless Primarina.
—
I didn’t just nominate Primarina without grounds. In the current meta, she’s good in a lead position.. in the 1900s, most people are prepared for it and I face things like lead specs kyurem and lead zapdos, because it’s become expected. I have never seen someone experienced playing against Rima risk giving it a free turn, they all just click the attacking move, it’s not worth the risk of trying to predict...
if you run enough bulk to survive specs freeze dry from lead kyurem (not recommended, as you have to forfeit special attack, losing the reliable 3hko on threats like slowking), then there is no lead counterplay outside of Kartana/Rillaboom/Zeraora, which are very easy to switch into earlier in the game. Running enough HP to survive specs freeze dry also gives you enough bulk to set up subs on heatran and every bulky u turn user in OU.
Just wondering what the PhysDef EV spread is/what benchmarks you tried to hit. I definitely agree that it's got a decent niche probably, and Trick + Black Sludge is great as you mention.
I’ve experimented with other spreads, but feel most comfortable with the standard 252/248+/8 spread, as the max investment gives you better odds after stealth rock verse knock offs and earthquakes from the big hitters of OU.
for moves, I find it’s not worth running slack off, as it forfeits too much momentum. Just hit back,or alternatively status and switch out.
trick+ black sludge is the only consistent tech growking has to deal with every switch in, be it Tyranitar, steel bird, heatran, hippo down, blissey, what ever it is.. the catch is you usually only get 1 chance to use it.
so i dont make this into an immediate one-liner, it faces some very sheer competition- i would rather move pokemon with sizable utility which ofc has many definitions / a beneficial impact on the metagame. while i don't believe primarina doesn't have any of that, i believe it should stay in the b rank.
Hi all, appreciate the discussion, but let’s please try to remain respectful of one another’s viewpoints and avoid using clown memes to downplay your opposition’s point of view, thanks!
Anyway, I see Primarina as entirely outclassed by Tapu Fini. While it has more power, Tapu Fini is outfitted with more utility, physical bulk, and Speed which makes it a far more versatile, reliable pick on offenses and balances as a check to Urshifu-R, Weavile, and Dragapult, which is a considerably more important niche to fulfill as opposed to simply hitting hard and taking a hit or two in a pinch.
Even from an offensive point of view, Tapu Fini has it beat with its superb Choice Scarf set and very solid Calm Mind set which makes use of its bulk to outfit teams with a reliable offensive check to some terrifying Pokemon in the current metagame as well as a very potent win condition. I think B- is completely fine for Primarina given how much competition it faces; it’s just really badly outclassed. Conversely, I also see Tapu Fini as an A-rank worthy Pokemon for the reasons listed above.
Hi all, appreciate the discussion, but let’s please try to remain respectful of one another’s viewpoints and avoid using clown memes to downplay your opposition’s point of view, thanks!
Anyway, I see Primarina as entirely outclassed by Tapu Fini. While it has more power, Tapu Fini is outfitted with more utility, physical bulk, and Speed which makes it a far more versatile, reliable pick on offenses and balances as a check to Urshifu-R, Weavile, and Dragapult, which is a considerably more important niche to fulfill as opposed to simply hitting hard and taking a hit or two in a pinch.
Even from an offensive point of view, Tapu Fini has it beat with its superb Choice Scarf set and very solid Calm Mind set which makes use of its bulk to outfit teams with a reliable offensive check to some terrifying Pokemon in the current metagame as well as a very potent win condition. I think B- is completely fine for Primarina given how much competition it faces; it’s just really badly outclassed. Conversely, I also see Tapu Fini as an A-rank worthy Pokemon for the reasons listed above.
you’ve made some good points, however my suggestion was based on the premise of A rank Pokémon being either strong threats or strong support, as they stand on their own. Hence why we see Kartana and Ferrothorn frequently in similar tiers.
I will give you that fini is rarely dead weight, due to trick/knock off/ taunt/ misty terrain always at least doing something for progress in a battle.
I can see how Bisharp, who like Primarina hits hard, is an A rank, and a similar Pokémon from an “unusual type combo and good offensive power which is useful against current meta threats”. However bisharp isn’t effortlessly walled by one Pokémon (Blissey).
so maybe for that reason, rima might not be in the same league as the A ranks, tho I’d still argue it’s sheer staying/breaking power verse teams where a player is trying to preserve its key defensive pivots health (i.e. 75% or more) gives it an edge over bisharp, who can similarly find itself having a hard time in some matchups (tho STAB knock off is amazing and hard to compare to)
regardless I think it has a heavier presence in the meta than a big chunk of B-, B and B+
Hi all, appreciate the discussion, but let’s please try to remain respectful of one another’s viewpoints and avoid using clown memes to downplay your opposition’s point of view, thanks!
Anyway, I see Primarina as entirely outclassed by Tapu Fini. While it has more power, Tapu Fini is outfitted with more utility, physical bulk, and Speed which makes it a far more versatile, reliable pick on offenses and balances as a check to Urshifu-R, Weavile, and Dragapult, which is a considerably more important niche to fulfill as opposed to simply hitting hard and taking a hit or two in a pinch.
Even from an offensive point of view, Tapu Fini has it beat with its superb Choice Scarf set and very solid Calm Mind set which makes use of its bulk to outfit teams with a reliable offensive check to some terrifying Pokemon in the current metagame as well as a very potent win condition. I think B- is completely fine for Primarina given how much competition it faces; it’s just really badly outclassed. Conversely, I also see Tapu Fini as an A-rank worthy Pokemon for the reasons listed above.
Just want to further the point here as i feel it is very important going forward. We all were or are new to the competitive battling scene and it's important new people can feel able to engage in conversation and sometimes they might be wrong or misinformed about something. So when that happens it's important to not alienate people with sarky posts and just explain politely why what they said wasn't the case. I think smogon has done a fantastic job at encouraging new battlers to engage in the various metagames over the years and keeping the bullying, rudeness, and other snarky things to a minimum so people feel much more comfortable and stay as a part of the community, cause it's a problem everywhere and we should do our best to keep in check as much as we can.
A -> A+
This mon has gained a lot of attention lately, and for good reason. Most teams don’t pack anything for at all. This mon shreds teams that don’t have Heatran. It’s standard QD + 3 attacks set or QD roost are the most common, and are very effective. However, I think safeguard sets are truly what makes Volc A+. Monoattack safeguard volc can use its usual checks,such as pex and blissey, as set up fodder. Another cool set I’ve been using is QD safeguard +2 attacks.It does not set up on as much as the Roost variant, but it’s volcs only set that can sometimes beat Heatran. The only Heatran set that can beat this set is Taunt Magma Storm, and that’s assuming that Heatran can hit all of its Magma storms and Volc doesn’t get any sp def drops with psychic. Sorry if this seemed like a rant I love using this mon lol
C+ -> Higher
This mon has also been seeing a lot of usage lately, and after using it, I think it’s quite good. It’s best set IMO is Sp Def Will-O-Wisp, but I think what makes it good is its sheer unpredictability. It can effectively run a lot of sets, but I will share some of my favorites. Scarf Physical Mew is a fun lure that can surprise Kill Pult sp def Heatran and Zera with Tripel Axel and Earthquake respectively. D dance Mew has gotten significantly better since the decline of slowbro. Finally, cosmic power Body Press can clean teams once the proper mons have been removed. Personally I would put it in B+, but I could understand it being lower.
Welcome to the third official (first post-DLC 2) SS OU Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.
The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Slowbro can be ranked in the A+ tier as a supportive presence, Spectrier can be ranked in the A+ as an offensive presence, and Toxapex can be ranked in the A+ tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.
Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council will consist of the following users:
Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted and infracted if it is a repeat issue. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
Being OU by usage alone does not guarantee a ranking. We touched on usage not being the sole reason behind viability of anything before, but this is very true here as a lot of things accumulate ladder usage despite not being the best option. Do not mistake the correlation between usage and viability as stronger than it actually is. If you have any further questions about this, please start a conversation with me on here or discord instead of posting it in this thread.
When new Pokemon, items, abilities, and/or anything else relevant to the OU metagame are released, please hold off on discussing the ranking of the new Pokemon or the rankings of Pokemon that are impacted by these developments until there is approval to discuss the matter by an OU Moderator in this thread.
Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction or possibly a ban depending on the severity of the offenses.
If you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide replays of it being used in the metagame and you also should go out of your way to be as thorough as possible in explaining why it has a niche in the metagame (Example of GOOD UR Nomination) -- a vast majority of nominations have been of poor quality historically and we reserve the right to revoke nomination privileges from thread posters at any point in time. If you are in doubt, then feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord prior to nominating a Pokemon and I will give you honest feedback on the post.
Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)
Not Sylveon, yet
I am hoping for a productive discussion to take place in this thread throughout the generation. I am looking forward to seeing the metagame develop in front of our eyes; I find this to be a very cool prospect and it is one of the main reasons why I elect to run this thread. With this said, I am still only one person and our moderation team only consists of so many people, so try not to make our lives too hard here...post intelligently, lurk before commenting if you are new, and do not expect everything to be moderated super closely 24/7. We are all volunteering our time and effort to maintain threads like these, so we expect a certain degree of respect and understanding of this.
Things that look off to me, first off theres no pangoro but thats another story.
C- Rank
Grimmsnarl
This mon is pretty deadly. I know it gets relegated to a lot of screen setting however the offensive sets are amazing. No way this should be down here
Incineroar
Incineroar is very versatile and overall annoying to fight against. C- is very low for it especially since it does well against a lot of the metagame
All 3 of these mons are FAR too low, especially the weezing-galar. Storm zone has a great example how to use WG VERY well with a lot of success. Thundurus also being in the same category as the water bug is just flat-out weird but u know what u got it lol. Lastly slowbro-galar is a versatile mon that can be defensive or offensive, with a great ability, bulk, decent attacking stats and moves to choose from. This has no reason to be down here.
Slowbro-Galar
Thundurus
Weezing-Galar
C
All of these are far too low, especially keldeo, diggersby and conkeldurr. Torkal should be in b- tier, as well as volcanion and venusaur is really good in sun and should be in b- as well.
Celesteela
Cloyster
Conkeldurr
Diggersby
Hatterene
Keldeo
Marowak-Alola
Venusaur
Volcanion
Uxie ranked a bit too high but thats fine. I dont know why toxtricity in is C, should be b tier for sure. really surprised by this
Regieleki
this is a broken mon and should be in A- tier, completely thrown off by this being In C, just like what in the world is going on here. In higher levels of play this completely warps the teams you can use along with dragapult.
C+ Rank
Azumarill
Gengar
Glastrier
Jirachi
Kingdra
Latias
Mamoswine
Mew
Ninetales-Alola
Obstagoon
Quagsire
Rotom-Heat
Terrakion
Thundurus-Therian
Togekiss
Zapdos-Galar
The only mons that deserve to be in this rank that are here now are rotom-heat, quagsire, togekiss, ninetails, zapdos, latias and azumaril. Actually, latias should be ranked lower Imo.
The rest of these mons are ranked wildly differently. Gengar is way too low, should be b+, thundurus-t should be b, mew should be b+, mamoswine should be b, terrakion should be b-, along with glastier and jirachi. Glastrier is a mon that isnt explored as much as it should be by the community and I highly recommend trying it out. It's really good.
B- Rank
Amoonguss
Barraskewda
Blacephalon
Blaziken
Ditto
Kommo-o
Latios
Moltres
Moltres-Galar
Pelipper
Primarina
Zarude
Zarude ranked in B- has got to be joke, but not only that, moltres and moltres galar have wildly different viabilities. Galar should be ranked far above regular moltres, so either move regular moltres down or move mg higher. Latios is a bit too low, and blacepholon is ranked FAR too high, this guy needs to be in C for damn sure. amongus can be here even though I’m not too fond of it.
B Rank
Aegislash
Buzzwole
Crawdaunt
Gastrodon
Hawlucha
Reuniclus
Suicune
Swampert
Tapu Bulu
Victini
Id move swampert & hawlucha down to b-, victini to b+, and Reuniclus to b- as well. This is a very strange list for sure but ill just say that and move along
Dracozolt
Excadrill
Hippowdon
Mandibuzz
Nidoking
Rotom-Wash
Slowbro
Slowking-Galar
Tangrowth
Tapu Fini
Tyranitar
Tangrowth, wash, and drill are FAR too high here. Id def move them to b- at the absolute max. Actually id move wash to c+. I get why you put the future sight twins in here but honestly slowbro should be lower than slowking-galar, its not the same viability, honestly would throw it in b- at the max. TTar a bit too low here, but b+ is fine.
A- Rank
Blissey
Dragonite
Hydreigon
Magnezone
Melmetal
Scizor
Skarmory
Zapdos
Now we get Into some interesting shit since I find this pretty egregious. For starters, almost none of these mons should be this rank at all as they are far too high. skarmory shouldnt be in this rank at all, and neither should zapdos, move them both down expeditiously and throw scizor there as well. I can accept hydregion, melmetal dragonite and blissey, and zone in this rank but even then dragonite pushing it MAD hard in A-, should probably b in B.
Now onto A Rank
Bisharp
Ferrothorn
Kartana
Kyurem
Rillaboom
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Tornadus-Therian
Toxapex
Urshifu-R
Volcarona
Weavile
Absolutely fucking not lol. Kartana has no reason to be here AT ALL. like this should be c+ tier lol and I will stand by that with my whole chest. Bisharp is also too high here but I like the support of it; definitely needs to be in b-. Ferro is also far too high but im just going to ignore it. This is pretty interesting though, and I actually can get behind most of this. Move kyu to A+ however
S Rank
Dragapult
Landorus-Therian
Slowking
A Rank:
A+ Rank
Clefable
Corviknight
Garchomp
Heatran
Zeraora
I can do this in one swoop since it's pretty easy. Why tf is slowking in S? It is not remotely the same level as the metagame oppressing Dragapult or even the omnipresence of Lando-t, so like excuse me lmaooo yall on that GAS. Slowking should be in B imo but ill even take A- or B+ since yall so sensitive in this thread. Lando-t should also be in B+ imo and ive said this many times before. S tier should def just be the oppressive dragapult.
A+ rank has clef and zeraora far too high but I knew that was coming FOR SURE. Yall can just leave them I really dont care about it but you know you cannot justify this. Corv & Chomp being A+ makes sense however we can honestly move them down to the level of the tapus and leave tran , corv, and chomp up here. Zera def has no business being here lmao but yall got it.
ALSO theres a surprisingly lack of pangoro and haxorus, ill nom them but that shocked me. Looking at it I see the types of squads yall are bringing and honestly it's just strange, this tier does not need to be like this lol. I promise yall can do better than this, I will guide you lol stop this
First, I want to say I can commend the effort it took to write all of this. That said, there are quite a few points I wanted to touch on; I may not be the ultimate expert when it comes to vr, but I would like to answer a lot of notions you seem to have to the best of my ability. So, let's break things down:
Grimmsnarl
This mon is pretty deadly. I know it gets relegated to a lot of screen setting however the offensive sets are amazing. No way this should be down here
This is a mon that I can actually agree on. I do think Grimmsnarl is mostly only good as a screen setter, but I think it is good at what it does since Prankster guarantees it can perform its main function. Also it's the only remotely viable mon besides Bisharp that resists both halves of Dragapult's STAB combo while OHKOing back with Spirit Break, so that's something.
I dont know why toxtricity in is C, should be b tier for sure. really surprised by this
Regieleki
this is a broken mon and should be in A- tier, completely thrown off by this being In C, just like what in the world is going on here. In higher levels of play this completely warps the teams you can use along with dragapult.
Regieleki is by no means broken. This is for one simple reason: it is basically mandatory to have one Ground type per team, and this type includes two of the best mons in the whole tier. This necessity for Ground types is also probably the main reason Toxtricity is as low as it is. If your statement about Eleki "completely warping" the tier is because of this, it's more so because blocking Electric moves (namely Volt Switch) is really good, mostly because of a certain other mon; the power and utility some of these Ground types provide also mean one would probably be on every team regardless. Eleki's terrible coverage and mediocre attacking stats sans Transistor mean that Ground types can often come in for free against offensive sets, making them too inconsistent and forcing Eleki into a support role. Eleki is fine as a suicide lead on HO, but its desire for both Rapid Spin and Explosion means it often can't touch Dragapult at all, which is an issue given Pult is probably the best mon in the tier and Infiltrator lets it bypass screens (hence why Grimmsnarl's typing is such a boon for HO teams, imo).
I've already said my piece about Moltres' defensive applications on this thread, but offensive Moltres is a recent development that has proven rather effective despite my initial reservations. OU doesn't really have that many Hurricane switch ins, and STAB Flamethrower means Molt can easily punish most mons that can resist Hurricane. SubRoost + Pressure is a great asset, allowing Molt to help PP stall dangerous moves like Heatran's Magma Storm, while also giving it a shield from pesky status; IcyYandereDragon may be the better SubStaller overall, but Molt's offensive combo is overall stronger, so it's not completely outclassed. So no, Molt shouldn't be lower. As for Goltres- I'm not opposed to it moving up, but it's kind of pigeon-holed as a late-game sweeper or stuck relying on RestTalk, neither of which is the most consistent. Maybe we'll see some development that makes it more promising, but right now I think it's fine as is.
Not really. Latios basically needs to run Scarf or key threats like Dragapult (which it also has to compete with, mostly unsuccessfully) and Weavile just eat it alive. Even with Scarf, it struggles against common priority like Weavile's Ice Shard, Scizor's Bullet Punch and Bisharp's Sucker Punch (and because of Levitate it can't be shielded by Lele's terrain), and it has a bit of 4MSS since it needs Aura Sphere for Heatran and Ttar, but without Mystical Fire it struggles against Fairies like Clef and Lele, and makes the MU with Fini even worse.
Tangrowth is probably one of the best physical walls in the tier right now, able to check terrifying physical attackers like Urshifu, Zeraora, Kartana and offensive Ground types. Regen allows Growth to keep itself healthy on top of Giga Drain, Sleep Powder and Knock Off allow it to provide constant support throughout a game and Focus Blast or rare EQ allow it to pressure Steels that would otherwise sit on its Giga Drain. It has several possible items, but I prefer Helmet so it can provide passive chip and better punish U-turn spam. It doesn't love Toxic, but that's really Growth's only consistent weakness (its special bulk can be patched when partnered with Blissey, SpD Toxapex or Slowking). Your critique of Drill is fair, though.
skarmory shouldnt be in this rank at all, and neither should zapdos, move them both down expeditiously and throw scizor there as well. I can accept hydregion, melmetal dragonite and blissey, and zone in this rank but even then dragonite pushing it MAD hard in A-, should probably b in B.
True, Corviknight may be overall superior to Skarmory, but Skarmory does have some key advantages. On top of marginally higher physical bulk, Skarm is able to set its own hazards, namely the rare Spikes, and further chip foes with Toxic; hazards + Toxic allow it to serve a significantly different role than Corv, meaning it isn't as outclassed as you may have assumed.
Paralysis is really great right now given how many fast threats are running around, and Zapdos is probably the best at spreading it thanks to Static and Discharge; Static is particularly neat for its ability to punish U-turn spam. Zap also provides great utility in Defog and possible momentum with Volt Switch, and can apply ample offensive pressure with Hurricane (again, not many switch ins) or Heat Wave to melt most Steels.
Dragonite in B- between being a scary DD cleaner or a decent utility mon, with plentiful offensive options and Multiscale to live dangerous attacks in a pinch- no.
Also disagree on Scizor, although I'm not too experienced with it in OU so I'll let someone else field this.
181 Attack. A good speed tier. An ability that boosts its Attack, allowing it to snowball once certain mons are weakened. Solid coverage in Knock and Sacred Sword. Even if you think it's overrated- this thing sounds like a C+ tier to you?
Again, Dragapult is really good, Bisharp can take either STAB, KO with Sucker Punch. Sharp is also good at menacing many common defensive mons, especially Clefable, Blissey and the Slow twins.
Slowking should be in B imo but ill even take A- or B+ since yall so sensitive in this thread. Lando-t should also be in B+ imo and ive said this many times before.
A+ rank has clef and zeraora far too high but I knew that was coming FOR SURE. Yall can just leave them I really dont care about it but you know you cannot justify this. Corv & Chomp being A+ makes sense however we can honestly move them down to the level of the tapus and leave tran , corv, and chomp up here. Zera def has no business being here lmao but yall got it.
Remember when I said that Ground types being mandatory on every team was partially due to one particular mon? IMO, Zeraora cements the necessity for Ground types in this tier. From experience, I can say that facing Zeraora without a Ground type or after your Ground is down is a truly terrifying experience. Zeraora's speed tier makes one of only 2 mons that can naturally outspeed Dragapult without support, and unlike Eleki Zeraora actually has a good movepool to back it up; you have CC for a nuke, Knock Off and possibly Taunt for great utility, Toxic to wear down checks, Bulk Up to clean up late game, and that's not even touching on niche options like Grass Knot and Play Rough. What really makes Zer hard to deal with, though, is Volt Switch, as if your Zeraora check isn't Ground Zer can just freely nope out into a teammate that bodies your check. Even mostly sound checks like Tangrowth can be forced into a tricky position with the right option. Zeraora definitely warrants its placement, imo.
In general, the main issue with a lot of your arguments is that I don't really get the "why" in a lot of your claims. Stuff like "Kartana is C+" or "Lando is B+" make me scratch my head because you don't provide any justification as to why they should be that low; with a mon as strong as Kart or as versatile as Lando, there needs to be some kind of obvious, serious downside that counteracts those traits if I am to believe these two are to drop, especially to the extent you suggest. The issue with just saying "x should be y rank" and leaving it at that is there isn't really any argument for me to engage with; I fully acknowledge I had to assume a bunch of the points I addressed here. With your statement about Glastrier, for example, Why should we explore it more? What does Glastrier offer that one couldn't just get from another mon? There are plenty of positions you mention that I would be willing to listen to, but I need something to latch onto. Even if I end up disagreeing with most of your statements, I would at least like to know your reasoning for them. Also, a little less condescension would be nice, even if you were joking with stuff like "I'll guide you just stop this". I did try to be as reasonable as I could, so sorry if I ended up being overly harsh here.
In all fairness, this is Omari P we’re talking about, each post stunning and brave despite the harsh opinions. He’s never agreed with the Viability Rankings, but he’s damn good at using lower Pokémon effectively.
To prevent this from being a one-liner, I actually want to echo Nightmare King Grimm(snarl) rising up, especially with its ability to deal with Dragapult being pretty important now more than before imo. I do also think Galarian Weezing is kinda underrated, but I’m unsure if it has enough rn to support a rise. Maybe next slate?
In general, the main issue with a lot of your arguments is that I don't really get the "why" in a lot of your claims. Stuff like "Kartana is C+" or "Lando is B+" make me scratch my head because you don't provide any justification as to why they should be that low; with a mon as strong as Kart or as versatile as Lando, there needs to be some kind of obvious, serious downside that counteracts those traits if I am to believe these two are to drop, especially to the extent you suggest. The issue with just saying "x should be y rank" and leaving it at that is there isn't really any argument for me to engage with; I fully acknowledge I had to assume a bunch of the points I addressed here. With your statement about Glastrier, for example, Why should we explore it more? What does Glastrier offer that one couldn't just get from another mon? There are plenty of positions you mention that I would be willing to listen to, but I need something to latch onto. Even if I end up disagreeing with most of your statements, I would at least like to know your reasoning for them. Also, a little less condescension would be nice, even if you were joking with stuff like "I'll guide you just stop this". I did try to be as reasonable as I could, so sorry if I ended up being overly harsh here.
ill bite. Which mons in particular other than the ones that you mentioned here: lando, glastrier, and kart?
EDIT: also if you want to just message me to talk about- ill dm my instagram so I can just talk over there since I dont use this site. also whats good queen starry blanket
Sun: Given that this is a whole playstyle, I'm interested in hearing more about what potential you feel Sun currently has in the meta (although maybe this point is better for the general discussion thread).
In terms of stuff I'd be interested in hearing more about:
Keldeo, Conkeldurr & Diggersby: Since these three are the C ranks you seem most adamant about, I imagine you probably have some specific points on why you believe these three deserve more. Generally, the points that are most interesting to read are on mons the poster has the most to talk about with.
Sun: Given that this is a whole playstyle, I'm interested in hearing more about what potential you feel Sun currently has in the meta (although maybe this point is better for the general discussion thread).
Gengar: Favorite Pokemon bias.
Mew: Mew is a mon I've been hearing a bunch of good things about recently. Would be interested in your take.
Rotom-Wash: Washtom is an interesting mon for me. For whatever reason, I never see this thing on ladder, and I haven't really seen much discussion about it either. With Torn, I can at least see on paper why it would be seen as highly as it is even if I've almost never faced it; while I don't agree with Washtom being C+, I would be interested in hearing more opinions about this mon and wouldn't be opposed to it dropping if there was a substantial reason for it.
That said, I would first and foremost advise you to simply talk about whichever mons you feel the most passionate about, the ones where you have the something more substantial to say. Points that you are the most opinionated on will usually produce the most to talk about, and therefore have more to discuss and be more interesting (assuming there is some objective basis for your argument). Just consider which mons you have the most to say about, and go with those.
I think with the current meta, it’s obvious playing strong, fast, bulkier offense is the trend due to the limited counter plays to offensive cores.
I guess because of this, naturally we should expect if the viability rankings was strictly based on performance as well as threat/support level, you’d see Pokémon like zeraora, Slowking, drop ranks
Pokémon like fini and dragonite, that bring a great option for absorbing momentum, are thriving in the current meta.
but then again, if viability rankings were literally about performance, rather than potential ... regieleki would be unranked.
so just a little about this specific metal bird, I know some teams are forgoing hazard use all together .. and have experimented myself.. however skarmory compresses hazards + a Pokémon that can switch in to a few miscellaneous threats in one slot.
why is this relevant? Because it suits offensive team structures much more than corviknight does!
The physically defensive set can come in on many physical attackers, whilst a specially defensive set can still come in on physical types like Landorus, Garchomp and Rillaboom, whilst adding Clefable, lele, tornadus-t and even Kyurem to the list of Pokémon it can check .
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Roost
It’s specially defensive as a full stop to certain annoying Pokémon like freeze dry kyurem, tapu lele and calm mind clefable variants. Also, it can 1v1 tornadus-t in some instances.
Iron head let’s it hit those types. Importantly, usually once iron head is revealed verse clefable, she is at 80% or less, making it harder for her to switch into offensive threats on the same team as skarm.
rocky helmet is an easy consistent way to help get landorus to sub 80% or sub 60% as the sweepers I like to use tend to break most lando sets at those thresholds (subject to landorus EV spread of course)
rocky helmet also helps chip u turns from dragapult/urshifu/Rillaboom, as I run Pokémon that encourage the use of u turn from these types.
everyone hypes up spikes specifically, however I’d argue being able to compress either stealth rock or spikes into a set that also has some defensive utility , whilst being one of the rare defensive Pokémon that viably run whirlwind, makes skarm quite unique.
in short, skarmory is a little more relevant than corviknight for more than just spike stacking, it’s also more offensive and can’t be set up on as easily. Overall better in games that you’re planning on deciding within the first 30 turns!
something else I noticed, is that big threats like chomp might be mis-represented on smogons analysis pages.
maybe in a previous meta it made sense to have swords dance and stealth rock on the same set, it’s definitely not a good idea in the current one.
It’s now not a surprise some people think it doesn’t deserve A+ or S, as if you’re not running 3 attacks on an offensive set, of course there is easy counter play around switching in with the various Pokémon’s immune to either STAB.
it really needs to be either a booster or a reliable stealth rocker, but cannot pull off both in the same set easily. Not a big fan of the lure sets either, as it’s too easy to scout out Garchomps move set.
At least if someone “scouts out” your swords dance, they might regret it.
Just going to say that the opp missplayed on the 4th turn...
Still, i'm not opposed to a rise to Prim, it's just hella powerful, i'd still would shoot a B at most (B- is fine imo), as for now, this mon has some troubles at breaking Ferrothorn (Scald burns are annoying for Ferro tho), still, I do believe that this mon is viable and it could be explored further.
--
Also, for not make this post a one-liner, i'd like to do a nom that i forgot on the last post...
-- B+ to B/B-
I support this, but i'd not drop it further than B/B- for now, as it still has a niche at checking Koko and it can be a nice lead, however, i definitely support a drop for this mon.
Excadrill hates to see mons such as Buzzwole and Corviknight being so present on the teams, as it gets hard walled for them. It also hates grass spam because Grassy Glide Rill kills it and Kartana can tank one hit and KO back.
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 135-159 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 368-434 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (98.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+6 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 200-236 (50 - 59%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (That's not even a realistic calc since Corv usually runs Body Press lmao).
+6 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 330-388 (78.9 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Unreal calc as well lol).
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 324-384 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (It needs some chip for kill it).
+4 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 114-135 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Pray for triple flinch).
TLDR; It struggles on this meta because there's lots of mons which can wall it, despite that, it has a decent niche as a Koko check (it lacks recovery tho) and it can spin, still B- or B looks more appropiate.
EDIT: also if you want to just message me to talk about- ill dm my instagram so I can just talk over there since I dont use this site. also whats good queen starry blanket
Also, sry for not realize this (also ik that ur not talking to me rn), since i just wrote u on ur wall without knowing this :(, I support the Grimm rise that u mentioned.
I think with the current meta, it’s obvious playing strong, fast, bulkier offense is the trend due to the limited counter plays to offensive cores.
I guess because of this, naturally we should expect if the viability rankings was strictly based on performance as well as threat/support level, you’d see Pokémon like zeraora, Slowking, drop ranks
Pokémon like fini and dragonite, that bring a great option for absorbing momentum, are thriving in the current meta.
but then again, if viability rankings were literally about performance, rather than potential ... regieleki would be unranked.
so just a little about this specific metal bird, I know some teams are forgoing hazard use all together .. and have experimented myself.. however skarmory compresses hazards + a Pokémon that can switch in to a few miscellaneous threats in one slot.
The physically defensive set can come in on many physical attackers, whilst a specially defensive set can still come in on physical types like Landorus, Garchomp and Rillaboom, whilst adding Clefable, lele, tornadus-t and even Kyurem to the list of Pokémon it can check .
everyone hypes up spikes specifically, however I’d argue being able to compress either stealth rock or spikes into a set that also has some defensive utility , whilst being one of the rare defensive Pokémon that viably run whirlwind, makes skarm quite unique.
in short, skarmory is a little more relevant than corviknight for more than just spike stacking, it’s also more offensive and can’t be set up on as easily. Overall better in games that you’re planning on deciding within the first 30 turns!
This is pretty much misinformation, I don't know why this post is here since it's not saying that Skarmory should rise in the rankings or that Corv should drop, which shouldn't happen since both are perfectly fine in their current position, but i'd like to argue against the points this post is making because they're just not true.
Specially Defensive Skarmory is not something you should use, it loses to most of the special stuff it wants to check, and on top of that now loses to most of the physical stuff it wants to check. Whirlwind is also mostly inferior to Iron Defense while checking stuff like garchomp since a bad roll can basically ruin your Skarm. Now, seeing the pool of mons you said it can still check with a Specially Defensive spread:
From what i saw, there's no meaningful difference in the Swords Dance Landorus-T matchup, +2 Stone Edge does KO Specially Defensive Skarmory but you're still entering on a Swords Dance in these scenarios.
If you're not running boots Skarmory, which you should never do, please use either Shed Shell or Rocky Helmet since those are way more rewarding and you're likely getting knocked anyways since you're coming in on Banded Rillaboom, Standard Lando, etc., then you have a chance of losing to Swords Dance Rillaboom (Choice Band matchup is still solid) instantly, while Physically Defensive Spreads have the capacity of coming in, living Superpower after rocks and winning the 1v1 with accurate play, as Knock Off does up to 62 when Skarm has an item and is outhealed by Roost once Skarmory loses it.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 272-320 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Skarmory: 214-253 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
SD with Leftovers and Fire Fang (The set most Garchomps are running nowadays) wins to Specially Defensive Skarmory
While Physically Defensive can easily handle Fire Fang, barely doing over 50% to it when Garchomp is at +2, Specially Defensive can lose to it if running Iron Defense as we can see here:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 214-252 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
Even if we take into account a minimum roll like 64, there's still a 43% chance of Skarmory losing, and if we get a relatively medium-low roll like 68, or anything upwards of 67.7, Skarmory is dead and there is no SD Chomp answer. If we account on whirlwinding Garchomp out, now your Skarmory is around 36 percent health and can easily be overwhelmed next time Garchomp gets in.
Clefable nowadays runs Calm Mind with Life Orb and Thunder to properly threaten foes such as Heatran and Toxapex without having losing matchups vs steels, as you outlast Ferrothorn anyways, so, can Skarmory serve as a check to Life Orb Clefable Thunder?
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 265-315 (79.3 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Surprisingly, no, Skarmory is yet another mon on the list of stuff that doesn't properly check Clefable, and even if Stealth Rock aren't up it's not like it can do anything to win to it, Iron Head does 31 to 38, and Whirlwind, as always, is a gamble.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 176-208 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Rocks aren't even necessary, another mon Specially Defensive mon Skarm can't check
I don't know or care if i'm doing this in the correct order but whatever, Tornadus-T has been increasingly popular recently, and Nasty Plot Heat Wave is one of the sets that has been in use, losing the Heatran matchup but solidifying itself vs threats like Corviknight, That being said, Nasty Plot Focus Blast still exists so we'll acount for both.
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 332-392 (99.4 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 209-247 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As we can see, it miserably fails to check a mon it's supposed to check again, maybe we're encountering a tendency of this set to lose to stuff!
Now, if you're reffering to SubRoost Kyurem, then it does win vs it, but i don't get why you'd use Skarmory to beat SubRoost Kyurem, Regarding Specs Kyurem, do i even need to post the calcs? we all know Skarm is helpless vs it even with investment
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 199-235 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even timid 2hkos with Ice Beam, and Modest 2hkos with Freeze Dry, this is clearly not a check.
Now, am i saying you shouldn't use SpDef Skarmory? Yes, yes i am, you need the Physical Bulk to check Garchomp and no person that wants to win should use it. Sorry if my takes are a bit inflamatory or agressive but if you're going to spread misinformation at least make it believable.
Adressing others of the points you've made, no, Specs Kyurem Lead is not for Primarina, it's to counterlead most rockers, and no, Zapdos is not for Primarina either as it also counterleads most rockers if running Hurricane. I think arguing for Primarina to A is pretty absurd since putting it over really solid stuff like Scizor and Magnezone, and comparing it to Rillaboom is exaggerated, it's not even better than Tapu Bulu or Moltres, and it should stay where it currently is, as the argument you have is mostly that it's unwallable but it's also really easy to beat since a lot of stuff threatens it out, namely Electrics, Slowking Galar, Grasses, amongst others, and Slowking gains free momentum off of it which is great for the teams that are struggling to pick up due to their abusable nature.
Now, for this to not be just a post taking down something that will have little to no impact on the rankings, I'll like to mainly voice my support for the addition of Weavile to A+.
This mon is crazy, has little offensive and defensive answers and is generally a pain to face if you're not running Unaware Clefable fat, also pairing well with amazing mons such as Tapu Koko and Dragapult, and its status of 6th most used mon during Round 1 of WCoP shows it.
I also recently noted that there wasn't much talk about one of the mons that's currently partially struggling in the format, which is Zapdos. Weavile and Dragapult are great, Zeraora is shifting more towards Bulk Up sets and running Toxic instead of Volt Switch in some instances, and its usage and winrate during R1 were not good at all, being the 30th in usage with a 38 percent winrate. I think it doesn't belong in the same rank as Magnezone, Blissey, and especially Scizor and Melmetal, and is more comparable to Tangrowth, Dracozolt and Mandibuzz.
Other things that i support are basically everything Ox and Gomi said, mainly rising Toxapex to A+, rising Heatran to S, dropping Rillaboom to A-, and basically everything to4ster already said too.
This is pretty much misinformation, I don't know why this post is here since it's not saying that Skarmory should rise in the rankings or that Corv should drop, which shouldn't happen since both are perfectly fine in their current position, but i'd like to argue against the points this post is making because they're just not true.
Specially Defensive Skarmory is not something you should use, it loses to most of the special stuff it wants to check, and on top of that now loses to most of the physical stuff it wants to check. Whirlwind is also mostly inferior to Iron Defense while checking stuff like garchomp since a bad roll can basically ruin your Skarm. Now, seeing the pool of mons you said it can still check with a Specially Defensive spread:
Thanks for the calcs and examples - I note every set was specifically the most offensive and optimally matched variant of each Pokémon - , tho I was referring to it “checking” them, not countering. If your play style is to try and preserve 5+ Pokémon for 80% of the match, skarmory might not be best utilised with a spDef spread.
I’ve had great benefit using it at 1900+ rating, that just isn’t provided by corvi for the team structures I was using (due to them being more offensive in nature and needing the role compression). Can’t speak for tournaments.
in this situation, specially defensive is more than enough to just absorb the right amount of hits.
I am simply referring to offensive teams, in situations such as when you’re not ready to sack your Pokémon in the matchup vs the threat, so you switch out to a “check”. Or the “check” can sometimes revenge/weaken/whirlwind a threat.
the current meta is less favourable to teams that need 5+ Pokémon throughout the majority of a match to maintain their integrity. Usually heavily defensive teams or stall. For those teams you’d probably use physical defense skarmory - if you used it at all.
edit: I realised in the paragraph in the spoiler Iused the term “full stop” for certain threats. I apologise if this was interpreted as a synonym for “hard counter”. Please note the term “check” used in the post with “full stop” being used to suggest a stop/threat to their momentum.
Adressing others of the points you've made, no, Specs Kyurem Lead is not for Primarina, it's to counterlead most rockers, and no, Zapdos is not for Primarina either as it also counterleads most rockers if running Hurricane. I think arguing for Primarina to A is pretty absurd since putting it over really solid stuff like Scizor and Magnezone, and comparing it to Rillaboom is exaggerated, it's not even better than Tapu Bulu or Moltres, and it should stay where it currently is, as the argument you have is mostly that it's unwallable but it's also really easy to beat since a lot of stuff threatens it out, namely Electrics, Slowking Galar, Grasses, amongst others, and Slowking gains free momentum off of it which is great for the teams that are struggling to pick up due to their abusable nature.
thanks for your thoughts , could you please suggest why based on replays/actual performance evidence? I can provide a few more if needed. Also my comments about lead counterplay were about people who had played against it before,and started with things like specs kyurem (as opposed to something like a koko, landorus or chomp that they may have started with in a previous match)
in short, I see primarina as similar to bisharp, slightly more powerful, but less opportunities to switch in and notably slower.
I can understand the limitations due to slow speed, etc, but a lot of what people write is theoretical, it’s not as based on actual games where there are decisions and counter decisions that might be based on something as simple as “I’m not gonna check that Rillaboom with landorus because he has a regieleki still in play”, etc.
Just going to say that the opp missplayed on the 4th turn...
Still, i'm not opposed to a rise to Prim, it's just hella powerful, i'd still would shoot a B at most (B- is fine imo), as for now, as this mon has some troubles at breaking Ferrothorn (Scald burns are annoying for Ferro tho), still, I do believe that this mon is viable and it could be explored further.
--
It’s a good point. It’s true that she’s walled effortlessly by bliss/chansey and can be usually walled by Ferrothorn. Other Pokémon’s like AV glowking can check it, tho need to be weary of the potential for a snowball effect, as sludge bomb won’t OHKO and a torrent + metronome boost is very dangerous.
my suggestion for A might not have been suitable.. I was comparing it too much to bisharp, tho now I am realising bisharp probably wasn’t a good indicator of an A type haha, as if it is an A, it’s definitely on the lower side of it!
very notably, unlike bisharp, there is only two defensive Pokémon’s that can reliably ko primarina back immediately, and that’s Ferrothorn and a specially defensive AV Melmetal. both lack reliable recovery.
Some miscellaneous rarer threats like tangrowth with power whip assault vest, or Toxapex running gunkshot might also be a thing, lol.
Thanks for the calcs and examples - I note every set was specifically the most offensive and optimally matched variant of each Pokémon - , tho I was referring to it “checking” them, not countering. If your play style is to try and preserve 5+ Pokémon for 80% of the match, skarmory might not be best utilised with a spDef spread.
I’ve had great benefit using it at 1900+ rating, that just isn’t provided by corvi for the team structures I was using (due to them being more offensive in nature and needing the role compression). Can’t speak for tournaments.
in this situation, specially defensive is more than enough to just absorb the right amount of hits.
I am simply referring to offensive teams, in situations such as when you’re not ready to sack your Pokémon in the matchup vs the threat, so you switch out to a “check”. Or the “check” can sometimes revenge/weaken/whirlwind a threat.
the current meta is less favourable to teams that need 5+ Pokémon throughout the majority of a match to maintain their integrity. Usually heavily defensive teams or stall. For those teams you’d probably use physical defense skarmory - if you used it at all.
edit: I realised in the paragraph in the spoiler Iused the term “full stop” for certain threats. I apologise if this was interpreted as a synonym for “hard counter”. Please note the term “check” used in the post with “full stop” being used to suggest a stop/threat to their momentum.
thanks for your thoughts , could you please suggest why based on replays/actual performance evidence? I can provide a few more if needed. Also my comments about lead counterplay were about people who had played against it before,and started with things like specs kyurem (as opposed to something like a koko, landorus or chomp that they may have started with in a previous match)
in short, I see primarina as similar to bisharp, slightly more powerful, but less opportunities to switch in and notably slower.
I can understand the limitations due to slow speed, etc, but a lot of what people write is theoretical, it’s not as based on actual games where there are decisions and counter decisions that might be based on something as simple as “I’m not gonna check that Rillaboom with landorus because he has a regieleki still in play”, etc.
It’s a good point. It’s true that she’s walled effortlessly by bliss/chansey and can be usually walled by Ferrothorn. Other Pokémon’s like AV glowking can check it, tho need to be weary of the potential for a snowball effect, as sludge bomb won’t OHKO and a torrent + metronome boost is very dangerous.
my suggestion for A might not have been suitable.. I was comparing it too much to bisharp, tho now I am realising bisharp probably wasn’t a good indicator of an A type haha, as if it is an A, it’s definitely on the lower side of it!
very notably, unlike bisharp, there is only two defensive Pokémon’s that can reliably ko primarina back immediately, and that’s Ferrothorn and a specially defensive AV Melmetal. both lack reliable recovery.
Some miscellaneous rarer threats like tangrowth with power whip assault vest, or Toxapex running gunkshot might also be a thing, lol.
Hmmm yeah I definitely see your point, despite it, Bisharp has Knock Off which can remove items and Sucker Punch as prio, but that Metronome Torrent set looks interesting, is there a way that we can continue this Prim conversation on private messages? I def want to ask stuff about this and see how Prim performs without derail the thread at all (def interested on that mon).
--
As for a Skarm rise, it does not look out of place, idk if you've saw my Sylv & Lurk post but I've posted two teams (one of those teams have been edited), both of them contain Skarm because it's just a p powerful option for the meta, I'd rise it to A personally, but A- doesn't look bad neither.
Landorus-Therian
S -> A+/A
Landorus-T doesn't feel very broken or restrictive on teambuilding rn. once you've slapped on ice beam/ice punch on to something you can be confident that this guy is under control. lando-T w/o sash or yache berry may not even get to set rocks due to mamoswine/weavile using ice shard.
Chomp has these problems as well, but chomp has excellent speed whereas lando-T has mediocre speed. yes it has frail bulk and eh speed but gets great atk and immunites to flying and ground. A+/A material? Certainly. S material? Ehhhhhh... no.
Charizard
C- -> UR
Wtf is this thing DOING on the ranks? I litteraly never see it and the one archetype it can fit on, sun teams, is outclassed by rain archetypes. Litteraly just a worse barraskewda which isn't the worst mon ever but when barra and rain beat both charizard and sun respectivley i dont thiink zard deserves to be ranked.
Barraskewda
B- -> at least B+
Speaking of barraskewda, the thing is so cracked rn on rain. Ik it only fits on rain but when you destroy everything on rain thats material thats clearly too good for B-. if a politoed/peliper is alive when barra CC's your ttar out (if you have one) prepare to say goodbye.
Crawdaunt
B -> B-
Hitting hard as a truck would be huge hype. Emphasis on would.
The issue with daunt, despite being nearly impossible to switch into, is that its a slow and frail mon. unaware clef also makes daunt angry as does unaware quagsire. albeit being tough to wall, the thing has enough offensive counterplay to be dropped.
Thundurus
C- -> C+/B-
This thing has so much utility on it. U-turn? He's got it. Toxic, Thunderwave, Taunt? Yup. Defog. Yup.
But wait, there's more.
Now you have to pack in the prankster ability and offensive potency, and you;ve got yourself a mon thats definently worthy of being higher than C-
Pelliper
B- -> B+/A-
Back to talking about barra, barraskewda has difficulty reaching its full potential without this boi. (kingdra and semistoad do as well btw)
But when barraskewda enters the field in the rain, theres gonna be alot of destruction brought. (kingdra/semistoad too, albeit to a lesser extent)
Tornadus-T
A -> A+/S
This thing has 2 ways it can go, both of which it does quite well. one is as a defog pivot knocker (tho I would suggest thundurus for that lol), and the one that thundurus is worse at, Nasty plot attacker that can to oodles of damage. Excellent material if you ask me.
Landorus-Therian
S -> A+/A
Landorus-T doesn't feel very broken or restrictive on teambuilding rn. once you've slapped on ice beam/ice punch on to something you can be confident that this guy is under control. lando-T w/o sash or yache berry may not even get to set rocks due to mamoswine/weavile using ice shard.
Chomp has these problems as well, but chomp has excellent speed whereas lando-T has mediocre speed. yes it has frail bulk and eh speed but gets great atk and immunites to flying and ground. A+/A material? Certainly. S material? Ehhhhhh... no.
I'm in cellphone so this will be a short post. LandorusT is definitely S tier material. It isnt supposed to be a threat in the teambuilder. It's pretty much a ridiculously great mon that can compress the roles of a Ground and Electric inmunity, rocker, pivot and physical blanket check to threats like Chomp and Kart. You mention slapping ice moves on something, but what ice type is switching into Landorus? And Mamoswine is not even that good. I dont get what do ice-types have to do with keeping rocks up as a whole. I also dont get the comparison between Chomp and Lando (they can be similar, yes, but they arent the same).
I find this post very uninformated about Landorus-T in the current meta overall, so i gotta disagree with the drop to A+/A.
I'm in cellphone so this will be a short post. LandorusT is definitely S tier material. It isnt supposed to be a threat in the teambuilder. It's pretty much a ridiculously great mon that can compress the roles of a Ground and Electric inmunity, rocker, pivot and physical blanket check to threats like Chomp and Kart. You mention slapping ice moves on something, but what ice type is switching into Landorus? And Mamoswine is not even that good. I dont get what do ice-types have to do with keeping rocks up as a whole. I also dont get the comparison between Chomp and Lando (they can be similar, yes, but they arent the same).
I find this post very uninformated about Landorus-T in the current meta overall, so i gotta disagree with the drop to A+/A.
mate theres this thing called slowking
and it uses teleport
and also i never said ice TYPE
ice beam from slowking/urshifu-S=EZ OHKO
and 90 def+89 hp is most certaintly not a physical blanket
mate theres this thing called slowking
and it uses teleport
and also i never said ice TYPE
ice beam from slowking/urshifu-S=EZ OHKO
and 90 def+89 hp is most certaintly not a physical blanket
????? man slowking takes way to much from landorus-t it cannot even switch in reliably and landorus-t is never staying in besides clicking u-turn, (0 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO) It is taking way to much . Landorus-t is not staying in on slowking, or coming in on urshifu-r, someone has to be confident that they are Using future sight or close combat. " Defensive Landorus-T is a great Stealth Rock setter by virtue of its good typing and Intimidate, which help it switch into many physical attackers including Garchomp and Excadrill to sponge hits.". Landorus-t has pretty greta physical bulk considering every physical attack bar clear body dragapult and defiant bisharp are at -1 every time this comes in, we are already shown how bulky clefable can be and it has 95/73/90 defenses. Landorus-t is not meant to be an unbreakable wall that stands in front of everything, it is meant to be a great pivot, an offensive threat, utilize its immunities to come in on pokemon it would take advantage of like zeraora and garchomp. It has great utility and role compression from rocks, defog, knock off, u-turn, intimidate. It has everything you can ask for in a pokemon. You can say the same thing about slowking, Just run bisharp and knock off it = EZ OHKO. Mate this is not how it works...
????? man slowking takes way to much from landorus-t it cannot even switch in reliably and landorus-t is never staying in besides clicking u-turn, (0 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO) It is taking way to much . Landorus-t is not staying in on slowking, or coming in on urshifu-r, someone has to be confident that they are Using future sight or close combat. " Defensive Landorus-T is a great Stealth Rock setter by virtue of its good typing and Intimidate, which help it switch into many physical attackers including Garchomp and Excadrill to sponge hits.". Landorus-t has pretty greta physical bulk considering every physical attack bar clear body dragapult and defiant bisharp are at -1 every time this comes in, we are already shown how bulky clefable can be and it has 95/73/90 defenses. Landorus-t is not meant to be an unbreakable wall that stands in front of everything, it is meant to be a great pivot, an offensive threat, utilize its immunities to come in on pokemon it would take advantage of like zeraora and garchomp. It has great utility and role compression from rocks, defog, knock off, u-turn, intimidate. It has everything you can ask for in a pokemon. You can say the same thing about slowking, Just run bisharp and knock off it = EZ OHKO. Mate this is not how it works...
I mentioned TWO ways to OHKO lando t, and plot twist: slowking LEAD.
you only mentioned how to OHKO slowking, bisharp obviously won't do against urshifu-R
I didn't even mention the possiblity of ice beam pelliiper/kyruem/fini/nidoking
or ice punch Dragonite/Melmetal/Swampert/Ttar
...
yes ik 2 of them wont switch into lando-T unless it uses stealth rock,
but another 1 absolutley walls it.
and all the beamers except nidoking aren't just gonna get OHKO'd
and kyruem just outspeeds it and kills it,
and pelliper walls it.
whatever the case, its not on the same level as pult
its decent utility but sadly it is w/o twave or prankster that thundurus posseses
I mentioned TWO ways to OHKO lando t, and plot twist: slowking LEAD.
you only mentioned how to OHKO slowking, bisharp obviously won't do against urshifu-R
I didn't even mention the possiblity of ice beam pelliiper/kyruem/fini/nidoking
or ice punch Dragonite/Melmetal/Swampert/Ttar
...
yes ik 2 of them wont switch into lando-T unless it uses stealth rock,
but another 1 absolutley walls it.
and all the beamers except nidoking aren't just gonna get OHKO'd
and kyruem just outspeeds it and kills it,
and pelliper walls it.
whatever the case, its not on the same level as pult
its decent utility but sadly it is w/o twave or prankster that thundurus posseses
Why will i stay in on slowking as landorus-t unless im a suicide lead landorus-t. Landorus-t is not unwallable, it just gives way to much utility to pass up on it. Pelliper in no way walls it, scarf can edge it, its weak to rocks so it can just get u-turned on, its very hindered by knock off, and can be toxic'ed, or if anything, landorus-t can just u-turn to a teammate such as slowking. T-wave is not even the best utility besides offensive teams, it also does not really matter because thundy-t gen 6 utility set is bad since the prankster nerf and t wave nerf causing it to be pretty much useless, facing heavy competition from zeraora and tapu koko as an offensive electric.
to S or S-
to UR
to A
-> a (lol???)
B+ to B/B-
