Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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ironwater

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Hey, I'll try to answer to most of the questions regarding the new Rises and Drops. There's a lot so I may miss some (and I'll only reply to the first instance of each question) but here we go. Note that it's mostly my opinion/vision of the metagame and does not necessarily reflect the whole VR council opinion or reasoning. Other members may add other elements for some answers, especially since I don't have time to go very deep into details for most of them.

why has gengar rose? curious about sun rise & koko's drop as well
Going from C to C+ means Gengar is still a super niche Pokemon, though I think Ghost types in general are getting more threatening as Shadow Ball answers are often only able to take 1 or 2 hits. Gengar having Nasty Plot means it can have a niche over another Ghost type in Ghost spam and could even fit in some specific HO.

Sun is still the least popular weather but may have risen a bit in popularity as people don’t always fit Sun breakers answer anymore and some Fire types who saw a rise in popularity too are extremely deadly in Sun teams (like Blaziken) making the whole playstyle better.

Tapu Koko remains super good, and it won a lot of games during Wcop. I think it was so deadly at some point that people started to adapt to avoid having only Lando-T as a Koko answer. There’s quite a few Gastrodon, Ferrothorn and Glowking around and they make Koko job harder.

Why did pult and glowking rise?
Echoing what I said on Gengar, Ghost types are super deadly right now because the metagame is getting a bit more offensive and Shadow Ball answers are a pain to find. Dragapult often beat its check on the long run and is super good in general against most offensive teams.

Galarian Slowking has seen some new sets emerge like the Trick Nasty Plot one who was used to anti stall during OLT (and it does the job quite well if the stall team is not prepared for it). Assault Vest Glowking bulkiness and offensive presence also makes it really good in a bit faster pace metagame.

Why didn't Clef rise?
I think Clefable is good where it is. It’s definitively super good and versatile and can fit in a lot of teams, but it’s no way near Clefable golden age earlier in the gen and it may struggle checking some very common offensive threats (Melm, Heatran, Kart, Lele…) meaning you’ll have a hard time fitting it in some team structures.

Why the TTar, Volcanion, and Toad rises?

Why the Victini drop?

(keeping them short for brevity)

EDIT: Added Volcanion.
Sand as a whole became way more popular (especially during OLT) as the Banded Ttar + Excadrill duo has proven to be super-efficient and threatening. Overall, Choice Band Tyranitar has almost no switch ins in the tier (if you predict right, but it’s often not that hard) and also brings a very valuable defensive utility, even with a fully offensive set since it prevents Shadow Ball Spam from Pokemon like Dragapult or Blacephalon.

Volcanion is becoming a popular Water resist (or in this case immunity). It’s an insane breaker in Rain teams, but is also very efficient outside of Rain teams as it can pressure a lot of structure while annoying opposing Rain teams / Water type breakers (like Urshifu).

Seismitoad rise is mainly due to it become a popular Electric immunity in Rain teams while having great coverage option to beat annoying Pokemon for Rain teams (see Eeveeto post).

For Victini, I'm less sure, it may just be because Koko is droping and Victini often needs Koko support to be efficient.

Curious on why Dnite rose, as well as A-Tales drop.
I would say that, with a metagame becoming a bit more offensive, Dragon Dance Dragonite is even more a threat and has an easier time acting as a setup sweeper, but I’m not entirely sure on this one.

Hail has fallen in popularity and even Veil HO are a bit rarer, Alotales remains the setter of Choice, but I think it suffers a bit from the HO archetypes becoming a bit less popular as it struggles against common threats like Melmetal and Dragapult.

Happy to see the Dnite rise, as well as the Ttar rise.

Was mew discussed by council for a potential rise? I feel like it was discussed a fair bit during OLT, and in the post-cycle thread. I have also seen much success myself (admittedly a bit lower on the ladder) with lure in particular.
Mew was not moved mainly because Demon Mew is less popular than before, so even if Mew has seen some usage with new sets, it’s not enough to justify a rise, but it kinda compensate for Demon Mew fall.

out of curiosity, what caused bulu to rise? especially when rillaboom also rose with it. were it’s offensive attributes and defensive typing enough to distinguish it?
I would say that Grassy Terrain teams are getting stronger than ever with new abusers like Blaziken emerging and super strong Pokemon like Melmetal and Heatran being very efficient on this type of teams. Tapu Bulu remains worse than Rillaboom overall, but its ability to catch the very common and annoying Zapdos with Stone Edge may explain why Rillaboom is not the only one to rise.

why no blissey drop, i heard it was just an exclusive mon on very fat teams and was pretty much less useful than other sp. def walls that can actually apply pressure such as gastrodon, slowking-g, slowking, sp, def tran, etc
Blissey is mainly a stall mon right now yeah, but I think OLT made stall a bit more popular than before and some stall got optimized, increasing in viability and helping Blissey keeping its B rank. There’s also some non-stall structure with Slowbro + Blissey which are rather efficient right now, especially since Blissey is good at preventing Shadow Ball spam.

Was Heatran to S discussed by the council?
Heatran is a massive threat for sure, but I don’t think it fits in S rank with Lando-T as it’s not as easy as Lando to fit in a team. I don’t think Heatran became significantly better recently and S- seems appropriate for it.

Idk who's running this thread these days, but whomever that may be is doing a great job with the ratings and these changes! (with the lone exception of Landorus-Therian...put that thing in A- lol).

Only one I want to hear more about is Tapu Koko dropping, because CM Koko is free wins in most games for me. If discussed, I would also like to know why :melmetal: melmetal :melmetal: is not S or higher.
Answer is pretty much the same than Heatran’s one. Melmetal is indeed super good right now, but still not as easy to fit in a team as Lando.

Why did Bish drop yet Gapdos remained B+? I'm assuming they have similar niches.
Bisharp is getting less popular because people often run Weavile instead as it does a similar job but with way more Speed. I think in hazard Stack teams, Gapdos remains a better choice due to its better Speed tier, its super good STAB combo and its somehow better defensive utility.

Was Weavile reviewed for any changes at all?
Weavile is one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon but being very threatening offensively means most teams will be prepared hence why it’s very hard for it (or any purely offensive Pokemon) to reach the same viability as a Pokemon like Lando which can easily fit in most teams.

Why did Blaziken rise?
Blaziken is a huge threat right now and it saw a huge increase of usage during OLT as there’s a bit less annoying bulky Water types (which can still be dealt with by the Tpunch set if you manage to chip them). Though, I think the main reason is that there’s a lot of rather offensive teams and Blaziken is an amazing wincon against these teams because getting to +2 late game often results in a sweep.

What made nihilego drop?
I think that there’s a little too much AV Melmetal or Garchomp for Nihilego to work efficiently and it may also suffer from HO becoming a bit less popular as it was mainly a threat in this kind of teams.

Curious why arctozolt and Atales don't get the same ranking since every hail team has and needs an arctozolt.
The explanation for Arctozolt and Alotales not being in the same ranking is just that Ninetales is used in some pure Veil Ho without any proper Hail abuser while Arctozolt only works with a Hail setter and Ninetales is almost always the setter of choice.
 

Finchinator

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Sun is still the least popular weather but may have risen a bit in popularity as people don’t always fit Sun breakers answer anymore and some Fire types who saw a rise in popularity too are extremely deadly in Sun teams (like Blaziken) making the whole playstyle better.
Adding onto this (for scorbunnys) we have seen a slew of Sun teams in OLT playoffs (replay thread here) -- obviously the playstyle is a tad inconsistent, but it has a high ceiling with Torkoal/Venusaur being the centerpieces.

For Victini, I'm less sure, it may just be because Koko is droping and Victini often needs Koko support to be efficient.
Adding onto this (for Dreadfury), Victini is also facing a lot of competition. With Scarf Lele being at an all-time high and bulky Psychics like Slowbro or GKing make it hard to double up with how good Ghosts and Weavile are, Fire tends to be monopolied by Heatran and you run into similar issues with Grounds, etc. -- Victini just fits onto less teams than ever before.
 

Finchinator

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What changed in the metagame for Dragapult to rise? Is it its specs set getting better or other sets?

And why was my Porygon-Z nomination rejected?
Shadow Ball is really putting in the work in this metagame state, but also we see a variety of sets on offenses -- with Specs being a faster Pokemon and DD being a win condition option -- that really opens up its viability. Dragapult is without a doubt a top 5 Pokemon right now.
Just kidding. I'm surprised to see Seismitoad having risen. What does it offer that Gastrodon does not already provide, apart from Stealth Rock? And it trades it for reliable recovery, which seems a bad deal to me.
Stealth Rock is pretty huge here as it fits on teams without being as passive. It also has access to Knock Off. Being able to blank Surging Strikes, wall Volcanion, and still keep Heatran/Zeraora/Koko in some semblance of check earlier in games is a great combination for an SR setter. However, it is also more common than ever on Rain, which makes Swift Swim Seismitoad a distinguishing factor worth noting that truly pushes it over.
 

Finchinator

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5. Why didn't Conkeldurr drop?
Rest were already asked (and answered), but regarding Conkeldurr, it really has at least remains the same degree of viable on a niche playstyle (Trick Room) that at least saw a decent amount of uses throughout OLT on the high ladder. If we keep furthering ourselves from this point, we will likely see a drop of it (and perhaps other TR options).
finch may as well explain the entire VR at this point lol everyone asked for pretty much every single pokemon
At the end of the generation, I may do a Pokemon-by-Pokemon explanation for the last update if there is enough interest. This new style of rapid-fire question-and-answer has been really cool as I get to interact with so many people and answer specifics rather than generalize everything, so I will see if I can find a middleground.
 
Was Weavile reviewed for any changes at all?
Weavile is one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon but being very threatening offensively means most teams will be prepared hence why it’s very hard for it (or any purely offensive Pokemon) to reach the same viability as a Pokemon like Lando which can easily fit in most teams.
Thanks. I was actually expecting a potential drop for this reason, with the meta adapting to running multiple answers to it on effective teams and the popularity of Scarf Lele + Fu it's definitely not what it was when it cracked into the S rankings. Not to debate its position or nominate it for a drop at all, it's a great offensive glue, just curious about how stable its position is.
 

Finchinator

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Dreadfury asked why Victini dropped and got two separate responses as to why, but

Victini doesn’t appear to have dropped at all, and is even still listed at A- on the main page. Am I crazy? Did I miss something?
I just made an organizational error here as Ruft said. Apologies!

thread is now open for nominations again — move future questions to the SQSA
 
Was or is Tornadus-T being considered for a rise to S- at all since the electrics are going down in usage due to gastrodon and the resurgence of excadrill, making hail teams, Zap, and Weavile its only huge worries now since tapu koko and zeraora usage is down.
 
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Why did dragapult rise?
Why did glowing rise?
Why did gengar rise?
Why did heatran not rise?
Why did clefable not rise?
(Kinda get the weavile not rising further thing. The meta is filled with its answers (clef ferro melm FB heatran and more)
Why did Alola-Tales drop?
Why did tapu koko drop?
Why did avalugg not drop?
I did not get the response to why avalugg did not drop (all other questions were answered to someone else )
 
Was or is Tornadus-T being considered for a rise to S- at all since the electrics are going down in usage due to gastrodon and the resurgence of excadrill, making hail teams, Zap, and Weavile its only huge worries now since tapu koko and zeraora usage is down.
I would definitely not consider the recent surge in ground-type related usage to be the only contributing factor in the slight decline of electric-types. It has been a collection of factors that led to a general decline in the usage of some electric-types, including the increased, and or, steady usage of Tyranitar, Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu, Slowking-G, and Buzzwole. However, I don't think this effects their overall dominance and is moreso a form of counterplay on the rise. Tornadus can certainly benefit from this temporary usage swing, but I don't think its ranking should be based off of it. I personally feel Tornadus is fine where it is, and justifying its ranking on recent trends feels a bit hasty.
 
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Speaking of OU, let's talk about some of UUBL mons:

Blaziken

You already seen the Swords Dance and Choice Band sets, but there's also other options that Blaziken has such being good in sun teams. Blaze Kick has less power than Flare Blitz but it has less drawback such as no recoil and increased critical hit chance, High Jump Kick is slightly powerful than Close Combat and has more PP, but Blaziken gets weared down if it misses due to its 90% accuracy. Stone Edge and Brave Bird Overkill Volcarona, also Brave Bird can deal a lot of damage to Kommo-o, Urshifu Rapid Strike Style and Galarian Zapdos. Bulk Up + Shuca Berry lets Blaziken take on Landorus-Therian more Efficiently, Blaziken will be 2HKOed from a Earthquake with +1 Defense and Shuca Berry, it can OHKO with +1 Flare Blitz in sun.

Thundurus

Thundurus has the Same base SpA as Zapdos but its more frailer and has more speed, Also it has Nasty Plot, a move that Zapdos doesn't have. And of course it lacks Hurricane. But on the bright side, it has Prankster with supportive moves such as Tailwind, Defog, Taunt, Toxic and Thunder Wave. It also has Weather Ball just like Zapdos. It also has Defiant with Lash Out, it can predict a Offensive Landorus-Therian switching in against Thundurus, it will get OHKOed by a +2 Lash Out. I know Lando can't touch Thundurus with Earthquake but Stone Edge will get it for good if Thundurus has no defense boosts.

Mienshao

Being the 3rd fastest Fighting type of OU does make Mienshao unique, Regenerator and U-Turn altogether can give its Allies more momentium. High Jump Kick and Close Combat can Depend on the situation, High Jump Kick can deal massive damage with Reckless and Choice Band and it can even OHKO Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and outspeed it, However it will require to give up Regenerator for that. It has Swords Dance, with Conjuction with Drain Punch it can always be Healthy thanks to Regenerator.
 
Speaking of OU, let's talk about some of UUBL mons:

Blaziken

You already seen the Swords Dance and Choice Band sets, but there's also other options that Blaziken has such being good in sun teams. Blaze Kick has less power than Flare Blitz but it has less drawback such as no recoil and increased critical hit chance, High Jump Kick is slightly powerful than Close Combat and has more PP, but Blaziken gets weared down if it misses due to its 90% accuracy. Stone Edge and Brave Bird Overkill Volcarona, also Brave Bird can deal a lot of damage to Kommo-o, Urshifu Rapid Strike Style and Galarian Zapdos. Bulk Up + Shuca Berry lets Blaziken take on Landorus-Therian more Efficiently, Blaziken will be 2HKOed from a Earthquake with +1 Defense and Shuca Berry, it can OHKO with +1 Flare Blitz in sun.

Thundurus

Thundurus has the Same base SpA as Zapdos but its more frailer and has more speed, Also it has Nasty Plot, a move that Zapdos doesn't have. And of course it lacks Hurricane. But on the bright side, it has Prankster with supportive moves such as Tailwind, Defog, Taunt, Toxic and Thunder Wave. It also has Weather Ball just like Zapdos. It also has Defiant with Lash Out, it can predict a Offensive Landorus-Therian switching in against Thundurus, it will get OHKOed by a +2 Lash Out. I know Lando can't touch Thundurus with Earthquake but Stone Edge will get it for good if Thundurus has no defense boosts.

Mienshao

Being the 3rd fastest Fighting type of OU does make Mienshao unique, Regenerator and U-Turn altogether can give its Allies more momentium. High Jump Kick and Close Combat can Depend on the situation, High Jump Kick can deal massive damage with Reckless and Choice Band and it can even OHKO Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and outspeed it, However it will require to give up Regenerator for that. It has Swords Dance, with Conjuction with Drain Punch it can always be Healthy thanks to Regenerator.
uhh did you forget to say where you think these mons should be in the vr

Also these blaziken sets also aren't going to boost blaziken in the vr at all, hjk's power is unneccesary and comes with a much bigger drawback. Flare blitz does fine with volcarona, and cc deals with kommo o just fine too. The bulk up set isn't good either when you can just swords dance
 
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Speaking of OU, let's talk about some of UUBL mons:

Blaziken

You already seen the Swords Dance and Choice Band sets, but there's also other options that Blaziken has such being good in sun teams. Blaze Kick has less power than Flare Blitz but it has less drawback such as no recoil and increased critical hit chance, High Jump Kick is slightly powerful than Close Combat and has more PP, but Blaziken gets weared down if it misses due to its 90% accuracy. Stone Edge and Brave Bird Overkill Volcarona, also Brave Bird can deal a lot of damage to Kommo-o, Urshifu Rapid Strike Style and Galarian Zapdos. Bulk Up + Shuca Berry lets Blaziken take on Landorus-Therian more Efficiently, Blaziken will be 2HKOed from a Earthquake with +1 Defense and Shuca Berry, it can OHKO with +1 Flare Blitz in sun.

Thundurus

Thundurus has the Same base SpA as Zapdos but its more frailer and has more speed, Also it has Nasty Plot, a move that Zapdos doesn't have. And of course it lacks Hurricane. But on the bright side, it has Prankster with supportive moves such as Tailwind, Defog, Taunt, Toxic and Thunder Wave. It also has Weather Ball just like Zapdos. It also has Defiant with Lash Out, it can predict a Offensive Landorus-Therian switching in against Thundurus, it will get OHKOed by a +2 Lash Out. I know Lando can't touch Thundurus with Earthquake but Stone Edge will get it for good if Thundurus has no defense boosts.

Mienshao

Being the 3rd fastest Fighting type of OU does make Mienshao unique, Regenerator and U-Turn altogether can give its Allies more momentium. High Jump Kick and Close Combat can Depend on the situation, High Jump Kick can deal massive damage with Reckless and Choice Band and it can even OHKO Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and outspeed it, However it will require to give up Regenerator for that. It has Swords Dance, with Conjuction with Drain Punch it can always be Healthy thanks to Regenerator.
Thundurus-I feels like a frankenstein between Zapdos and Thundy-T, but it does have prankster which allows it to set up on many balance cores. It also outspeeds Garchomp and Kartana, allowing it to ohko them at +2 after some prior damage.

Maybe it should be ranked in C- because it still does mostly Thundurus-Therian's job while also acting as a backup rain setter, a backup paralysis spreader and the ability to outspeed certain offensive threats Zapdos and Thundy-T cannot.

I've also heard stuff about a Defiant Bulk Up set, although it seems a little dubious for me to want to use Thundurus-I of all things for such a set.
 
Avalugg to UR- When was the last time we opted this as our weavile check/spinner? This thing hates knock. How is it supposed to keep weavile in check? LOL

Alright I guess I'll try and answer this original question about how Avalugg keeps Weavile in check-while it is true that Lugg hates knock off, even at +2 Avalugg is still tanking the hit and ohkoing with body press-so I don't think Lugg's other issues are enough from dropping it into UR when it checks weavile pretty well

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 69-82 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

**Edit** Whoops, seems like I forgot something. Low Kick is Weavile's best bet for getting through Avalugg, specifically the choice band set

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO

I'm not sure if swords dance sets that are used nowadays run low kick with them, as I'm just using the listed SD set on Smogon without low kick

So overall maybe not a perfect check per se, but after this I think you should ask Finch or any of the mods future questions about the placement
 
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Alright I guess I'll try and answer this original question about how Avalugg keeps Weavile in check-while it is true that Lugg hates knock off, even at +2 Avalugg is still tanking the hit and ohkoing with body press-so I don't think Lugg's other issues are enough from dropping it into UR when it checks weavile pretty well

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 69-82 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

**Edit** Whoops, seems like I forgot something. Low Kick is Weavile's best bet for getting through Avalugg, specifically the choice band set

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO

I'm not sure if swords dance sets that are used nowadays run low kick with them, as I'm just using the listed SD set on Smogon without low kick

So overall maybe not a perfect check per se, but after this I think you should ask Finch or any of the mods future questions about the placement
I know that Avalugg can't take very strong Super effective physical attacks such as these:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 445-525 (112.9 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg in Sun: 476-562 (120.8 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 460-541 (116.7 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, they activate Sturdy and Kommo-o will dislike taking a 120 BP Avalanche. (it will get OHKOed in return after the Life Orb damage)

Avalugg can't take strong Special attackers but they activate Sturdy it can Revenge kill some pokemon. But it will faint after getting hit by Heatran's Magma Storm trapping damage. Avalugg can't do nothing to Victini or Blacephalon if it doesn't have Earthquake to deal with them.

252 SpA Victini Searing Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Avalugg: 498-588 (126.3 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Avalugg in Psychic Terrain: 576-678 (146.1 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Avalugg's turn:

0 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 272-322 (110.1 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

It may give up Avalugg a moveslot to actually do something to Steel and Fire types.
 
Speaking of OU, let's talk about some of UUBL mons:

Blaziken

You already seen the Swords Dance and Choice Band sets, but there's also other options that Blaziken has such being good in sun teams. Blaze Kick has less power than Flare Blitz but it has less drawback such as no recoil and increased critical hit chance, High Jump Kick is slightly powerful than Close Combat and has more PP, but Blaziken gets weared down if it misses due to its 90% accuracy. Stone Edge and Brave Bird Overkill Volcarona, also Brave Bird can deal a lot of damage to Kommo-o, Urshifu Rapid Strike Style and Galarian Zapdos. Bulk Up + Shuca Berry lets Blaziken take on Landorus-Therian more Efficiently, Blaziken will be 2HKOed from a Earthquake with +1 Defense and Shuca Berry, it can OHKO with +1 Flare Blitz in sun.
Uh is it? Scarf darm is much better pretty much better than blaziken on sun. Blaziken is pretty much exclusive to HO or screens since stacking fire types on sun is a bad idea. CC and flare blitz also nuke those pokemon, idk what brave bird does anyway. Air balloon helps blaziken regardless setup freely without taking a shit ton of chip and take no spikes damage.


Thundurus

Thundurus has the Same base SpA as Zapdos but its more frailer and has more speed, Also it has Nasty Plot, a move that Zapdos doesn't have. And of course it lacks Hurricane. But on the bright side, it has Prankster with supportive moves such as Tailwind, Defog, Taunt, Toxic and Thunder Wave. It also has Weather Ball just like Zapdos. It also has Defiant with Lash Out, it can predict a Offensive Landorus-Therian switching in against Thundurus, it will get OHKOed by a +2 Lash Out. I know Lando can't touch Thundurus with Earthquake but Stone Edge will get it for good if Thundurus has no defense boosts.
Support thundy-i is really really bad, its passive asf and t wave + swagger is just bad and has been gutted, not even the reason it is good lol. NP is the reason it is good and lash out is gonna be at +1 not at +2 and even then

+1 4 Atk Thundurus Lash Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 199-235 (52 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

nah its not doing much at all and investing into it is just bad. Lando is not gonna be ur counterplay to thundy at all lol and just once u reveal ur set to be mixed, or NP u will easily know ur counterplay.

Mienshao

Being the 3rd fastest Fighting type of OU does make Mienshao unique, Regenerator and U-Turn altogether can give its Allies more momentium. High Jump Kick and Close Combat can Depend on the situation, High Jump Kick can deal massive damage with Reckless and Choice Band and it can even OHKO Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and outspeed it, However it will require to give up Regenerator for that. It has Swords Dance, with Conjuction with Drain Punch it can always be Healthy thanks to Regenerator.
Regen attacker is what ur gonna use it for... but its not smth to use it for, if you want to use it for damage use terrak instead, it has better coverage and CB reckless is so telegraphed what ur going to do and helmet chip hurts so much unlike regen esp if u miss the HJK and u lose all ur hp. Regen attacker maybe its C- Or C worthy i doubt its good at all since why not just use torn-t as a pivot attacker esp AV or boots do it better and if u really want to use it for spammable stab than just use CB urshifu-r
 
Wait, people still run Thunder Wave + Swagger Thundy-I? Sorry, but it just sounds like a very unreliable set for me, this isn't Gen 6 where Thunder Wave paralyzed everything and Swagger had a 50% confusion chance.

I ran Thunder Wave + 3 attacks Thundy-I. I can also see Thunder Wave working as a 4th move on a Rain Dance or NP set in order to stop something like +1 speed Kartana or scarf Blacephalon in a pinch. But Swagger...? At this point why not run Klefki?
 
Alright I guess I'll try and answer this original question about how Avalugg keeps Weavile in check-while it is true that Lugg hates knock off, even at +2 Avalugg is still tanking the hit and ohkoing with body press-so I don't think Lugg's other issues are enough from dropping it into UR when it checks weavile pretty well

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 69-82 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

**Edit** Whoops, seems like I forgot something. Low Kick is Weavile's best bet for getting through Avalugg, specifically the choice band set

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO

I'm not sure if swords dance sets that are used nowadays run low kick with them, as I'm just using the listed SD set on Smogon without low kick

So overall maybe not a perfect check per se, but after this I think you should ask Finch or any of the mods future questions about the placement
What's your fourth move on Avalugg anyway? Recover, Rapid Spin, Avalanche...no reason to not pick Earthquake, right? Note that Jolly banded Weavile has almost no chance to 2HKO with Low Kick though.
But all of this is theorymoning, right? Is there a replay of Avalugg doing something meaningful somewhere?
 
Icicle Spear, Spin, Recover and Body Press is the optimal Avalugg set. Sometimes EQ can be used instead of Body Press or Icicle Spear if you fear Heatran, Blacephalon or the rare Aegislash (you are not beating this unless at 100% , but 30% damage is better than 7% damage from Spear).
 
Ah yes I suppose Body Press makes sense, indeed. Still, I'm not sold on Avalugg being ranked at all. Have people seen it thrown around in any high-level ladder, or tournament game?
 
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