Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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:corviknight: A- to B
Corviknight is extremely passive which does not work well in the current metagame. Role Compression is important yet all Corviknight can provide is a decent pivot and Defog. Corviknight, although being defensive, has no way to threaten its opponent. It does not get toxic or twave, it doesn’t get stealth rock or spikes, and it doesn’t get knock off. The worst part about Corviknight is that it faces major competition with Lando-T. Lando-T also provides defog and u-turn, but is a better wall, has toxic and stealth rock, and can provide decent damage with Earthquake. Corviknight also faces type overlap with common mons like Lando-T, Tornadus-T, Ferrothorn, Melmetal etc. Corviknight’s Bulk Up sets only really work on HO and even then, are still outclassed by other HO setup sweepers. The ever-present Dragapult can break through Corviknight, and this is only because Corviknight has no way to actually threaten Dragapult.
 
So this is where you decide whether it is more difficult to remove every pokemon with a toxic, or just status the dark type on the opponent's team. Personally, I think pretty much everyone would rather rely on doing the latter rather than the former. It seems kind of strange to be hard walled by dark types but that is so much better than being hit by toxic for crit-me-not sweepers. It is why demon mew chooses taunt over body press (as well as blocking haze). No body press means you are walled by dark types, but not totally stuffed by haze or toxic. Dark types rarely have recovery (pretty much just hydreigon) so wearing them down is way easier than killing anything that would run toxic like hippo, toxapex, tran, and many many more hard to move walls.

As for cress, not having taunt I think is a hard sell for me over demon mew but I will give it a try.
As I said, Bisharp is immune to Toxic, it can be a hard counter to Cresselia.
 
A far bigger issue is that Cresselia doesn't really do much that Demon Mew doesn't besides be fatter. Being walled by Dark-types sucks but you have 5 other team slots for a reason, and even some Mew sets have been known to run like Cosmic Power / Roost / Stored Power / Taunt to break stall. The user mentioned that Cress OHKO's Pex at +2, but I don't see how you figure you're realistically getting to +2 without getting Hazed, while Demon Mew can just run Taunt to shut down Pex. They mentioned Skill Swap to mess with Unaware users, but not only does Mew also learn Skill Swap, Stored Power kind of invalidates most Unaware users in the first place. They mention Blissey, but Demon Mew already beats Blissey.

I just don't see much of a reason to run Cress over Mew on the majority of teams. Cress is a bit bulkier, sure, but Mew gets so many moves that Cress would kill for, like Taunt, Body Press, and every kind of coverage you could ask for.
 
:corviknight: A- to B
Corviknight is extremely passive which does not work well in the current metagame. Role Compression is important yet all Corviknight can provide is a decent pivot and Defog. Corviknight, although being defensive, has no way to threaten its opponent. It does not get toxic or twave, it doesn’t get stealth rock or spikes, and it doesn’t get knock off. The worst part about Corviknight is that it faces major competition with Lando-T. Lando-T also provides defog and u-turn, but is a better wall, has toxic and stealth rock, and can provide decent damage with Earthquake. Corviknight also faces type overlap with common mons like Lando-T, Tornadus-T, Ferrothorn, Melmetal etc. Corviknight’s Bulk Up sets only really work on HO and even then, are still outclassed by other HO setup sweepers. The ever-present Dragapult can break through Corviknight, and this is only because Corviknight has no way to actually threaten Dragapult.
I do agree that Corviknight is due for a drop, but at the very least it can snowball with power trip and body press if left unchecked. Yes, its passive but it isn't quite as passive as you are making it out to be. It can also hard wall certain pokemon like the rising rillaboom, and can deal with weavile and bisharp if given the opportunity. Corviknight also gets taunt, which makes it more difficult to set up on. Corviknight has been on the decline due to it not liking all the status moves being thrown around and all the type overlap, as well as all the counters and checks rising in usage. But, corviknight is still a bit more of a threat than you are saying it is, so maybe dropping it to B+ instead makes more sense, as Corviknight has a ton of good traits, even if the meta is super hostile towards it.
 
Corviknight also gets taunt, which makes it more difficult to set up on.
Corviknight should never really run taunt, it isn't fast enough to fully appreciate it's effects as well as the fact that it can't really fit on either of it's bulky sets, ID Body Press and Bulky Pivot: (ID, Body Press, Roost, Defog) + (Defog, Roost, Brave Bird/Body Press, U-Turn).
Most setup sweepers will be faster than it, giving them an opportunity to use their boosting move anyway, while if it wants to catch something on the switch, it's usually better to just go for u-turn anyway.
 
I do agree that Corviknight is due for a drop, but at the very least it can snowball with power trip and body press if left unchecked. Yes, its passive but it isn't quite as passive as you are making it out to be. It can also hard wall certain pokemon like the rising rillaboom, and can deal with weavile and bisharp if given the opportunity. Corviknight also gets taunt, which makes it more difficult to set up on. Corviknight has been on the decline due to it not liking all the status moves being thrown around and all the type overlap, as well as all the counters and checks rising in usage. But, corviknight is still a bit more of a threat than you are saying it is, so maybe dropping it to B+ instead makes more sense, as Corviknight has a ton of good traits, even if the meta is super hostile towards it.
Its Power Trip set is a gimmick. It plays a defensive role on the majority of teams, and those offensive teams sporting this meme would be far better off with successful HO members like Celesteela. Because Corviknight plays a more defensive role, it is a lot more passive. Sets like ID BP or BU BB have opportunity cost associated with them for no longer being able to either Defog or Pivot, which makes them sitting ducks for trappers and other offensive members. These sets also drag on team role compression and general utility.

Corviknight is very overwhelmed defensively when attempting to check physical attackers such as Kartana, Rillaboom, Melmetal, and Weavile in conjunction with special attackers like Tapu Lele. This forces Corviknight to be very specialized and requires the team to support it where it struggles to check those threats. This makes it far less splashable and more matchup dependent, which limits its overally utility.

That said, it isn't useless. Its ability to check many ground-types that are on rise can make it valuable for fat and balance teams where it is needed. I would argue it is more along the lines of B+ rather than A- personally, seeing as the meta has generally been most hostile to it lately.
 
I saw the corv discussion and wanted to chime in with my own bird

:skarmory: B to B+/A-

This mon is highly underrated imo. The ability to completely wall most of the physical attacker in the tier while also checking the remaining few. Unlike corviknight, it can also wall set up sweepers like hawlucha, sd garchomp and dd dragonite with the help of iron defence which corv has to forgo due to the necessity of u-turn. Skarmory can also use iron defence to simply end games when the opponent doesn’t have anything that can break it or any ghost types that can just eat body press.

Another way that skarmory can avoid being passive is by running spikes. Spikes in themselves are very powerful even with heavy booty dudes due to knock off being effectively everywhere, allowing skarmory to wear down common switch ins like dragapult or tapu koko after a knock off. Ferrothorn can also do this but skarmory’s spikes immunity and reliable recovery make it more difficult to wear down over the course of a game. Skarmory doesn’t even have to run spikes as it can run defog instead to threaten certain hazard setters such as ttar, landorus t and tanky garchomp while still not being as passive as corviknight, when the opponent doesn’t have a ghost type.

Skarmory still has a some flaws though. It can not check most if not all of the special attackers in the tier like heatran and volcanion with a lot of these special threats being able to easily switch into skarmory risk free like calm mind clefable or literally any ghost type. Lele is a notable one as you would expect skarmory to check it but in practice specs focus blast one shots skarm and scarf focus blast 2hkos, and that’s ignoring tbolt sets. While skarmory can run brave bird to help with this issue, it makes it highly passive against everything else and makes its defog sets completely outclassed by corv. The ability to get a spike up on a switch is good, but ferrothorn can do that just as well if not better as it can handle some special attackers. Sure you can try and utilise blissey and run the infamous duo but heatran can easily rip through the two with its trapping set while roost volcarona can do the same to non toxic blissey varients, making the duo worse overall. This is also ignoring the fact that magnezone can easily eliminate skarmory without even thinking about it and blissed can’t help if skarm gets trapped.

Skarmory doesn’t even check all of the physical attackers out there as well. Rain teams can decimate it with choice band barraskewda while hail teams can destroy it with blaziken or Arctozolt. Electric types are also a massive deal as almost any of them can switch into skarmory and force it out. Special mention goes to zapdos who is also immune to spikes and can defog them away with exceptional ease.

However, I still think skarmory is better than the viability ranking gives it credit for and while I’m not sure if it’s A- good, it should definitely be in B+ at a minimum.

TLDR skarm walls most physical attackers and can spike on anything it doesn’t but it gets destroyed by electrics and spattackers but it’s still good imo
 
However, I still think skarmory is better than the viability ranking gives it credit for and while I’m not sure if it’s A- good, it should definitely be in B+ at a minimum.

TLDR skarm walls most physical attackers and can spike on anything it doesn’t but it gets destroyed by electrics and spattackers but it’s still good imo
I agree with what you mentioned about Skarmory's positives and its negatives-however, I feel like due to its shortcomings, Skarm's current rank is still ok for it as what you said sort of evens out its good traits with its bad ones and really imo doesn't make it deserve a rise. B is still a solid rank though
 
A far bigger issue is that Cresselia doesn't really do much that Demon Mew doesn't besides be fatter. Being walled by Dark-types sucks but you have 5 other team slots for a reason, and even some Mew sets have been known to run like Cosmic Power / Roost / Stored Power / Taunt to break stall. The user mentioned that Cress OHKO's Pex at +2, but I don't see how you figure you're realistically getting to +2 without getting Hazed, while Demon Mew can just run Taunt to shut down Pex. They mentioned Skill Swap to mess with Unaware users, but not only does Mew also learn Skill Swap, Stored Power kind of invalidates most Unaware users in the first place. They mention Blissey, but Demon Mew already beats Blissey.

I just don't see much of a reason to run Cress over Mew on the majority of teams. Cress is a bit bulkier, sure, but Mew gets so many moves that Cress would kill for, like Taunt, Body Press, and every kind of coverage you could ask for.
You make good points! You've convinced me that Mew is generally the better option, for some reason I disregarded Taunt as another way to beat Unaware, maybe I was too hyped about Skill Swap haha :) I guess one redeeming quality of this particular Cress set would be Substitute as a preemptive measure against opposing fast Toxic. Levitate can be nice vs opposing hazard stacking, but Mew can get around most of that with a little standard team support (e.g defog, rapid spin) and built-in recovery.

Regarding the Pex OHKO at +2, it is possible to get around that by pressuring with status & hazard (e.g burning Pex, getting spikes up, setting up +2 on opposing defog), but that requires much more team support and risk than Demon Mew with Taunt, so I definitely agree with you there

Skill Swap would only be useful vs Shedinja, but you'd have to be careful & not pass on Wonder Guard to an Unaware Clefable haha

Reevaluating my original suggestion, I now see this as more of a "Heat set" rather than a more serious alternative to Demon Mew & am ok with Cresselias current placement :blobthumbsup: Perhaps sometime in the future we will find some great use of Skill Swap
 
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:corviknight: A- to B
Corviknight is extremely passive which does not work well in the current metagame. Role Compression is important yet all Corviknight can provide is a decent pivot and Defog. Corviknight, although being defensive, has no way to threaten its opponent. It does not get toxic or twave, it doesn’t get stealth rock or spikes, and it doesn’t get knock off. The worst part about Corviknight is that it faces major competition with Lando-T. Lando-T also provides defog and u-turn, but is a better wall, has toxic and stealth rock, and can provide decent damage with Earthquake. Corviknight also faces type overlap with common mons like Lando-T, Tornadus-T, Ferrothorn, Melmetal etc. Corviknight’s Bulk Up sets only really work on HO and even then, are still outclassed by other HO setup sweepers. The ever-present Dragapult can break through Corviknight, and this is only because Corviknight has no way to actually threaten Dragapult.
:Corviknight: A- -> Stay A-

while Corviknight does have much more obvious issues than other A- Mons, I do feel like B is a bit mean, and underestimates Corviknight greatly.

With trends like Scarf Lele, Bulky Rilla, ToxTect Melm, and even Sand popping up way more than they did in the past, I feel like it's enough to warrant Corvi to remain a solid pick worthy of its placement on the VR.
I understand that Corviknight has no ways to threaten the mons it checks on its own, and that's a flaw you can't just simply overlook. But you do have 5 other team slots for a reason, as Corvi can U-Turn on mons that can't immediately force large damage on it, and pivot in to something that poses a big threat to whatever they have in (for example, sure, Lele could opt to stay in on Corvi since it doesn't immediately threaten it without a fringe option like Iron Head, but it runs the risk of the Corviknight user getting a free U-Turn in to Dragapult or something of the sort, which can pretty easily put them on the backfoot if they aren't careful.)

Corviknight's type overlap with other Flying types isn't as bad as it's made out to be either, since the only weakness it's stacking with other Flyings is Electric, which is a Weakness only shared by Pelipper and Tornadus, neither of which Synergize well with Corviknight regardless of type stacking, albiet you still don't see Corvi and most of the other Flying types on the same team, but that's because Corviknight already checks a lot of the things you already need a flying type for, with the addition of Tapu Lele, Garchomp, SD Lando, and even the rare but still fairly important Tapu Bulu, so they end up moreso unecesscary rather than strictly because they stack weaknesses.

I'll re-iterate it'd be wild to pretend to ignore Corviknight's bigger flaws, especially with it becoming a much more sub-par defogger with Rocks Heatran being so common, but it's definitely not a Malfunctional Pokémon by any stretch, and is absolutely deserving of an A- Ranking.
 
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why are you asking why I think it should be listed?I just mentioned its strengths and weaknesses.
it has good attack,great STAB and excellent movepool.
Probably because just listing a mon's strengths and weaknesses isn't how you make a good nomination. You need to explain why it has a valid niche in the current metagame, and listing its stats and mentioning that it KOs a few things and walls Regieleki isn't exactly telling anyone anything they couldn't figure out by looking at its Smogdex page for a couple minutes. What exactly has changed for Golurk to deserve a spot now? If nothing has changed and the implication is that Golurk should have always been ranked, that's something you definitely need to back up with replays of it doing something in high ladder/tour games that other Pokemon couldn't do better.
 
I do agree that Corviknight is due for a drop, but at the very least it can snowball with power trip and body press if left unchecked.
Set up Corv hasn't been a worthwhile set in ages and is basically a big match up fish. It can't even hard wall bulky rilla unless it has brave bird, as otherwise Rilla can just SD and drain punch to stay healthy, possibly getting multiple SDs if corv can't threaten it. It can't even all that reliably handle Weavile since choice band Taxel 2HKOs it and SD sets need only slight chip and rocks up to KO it at +2. As Smashburn puts it best

Corviknight is very overwhelmed defensively when attempting to check physical attackers such as Kartana, Rillaboom, Melmetal, and Weavile in conjunction with special attackers like Tapu Lele. This forces Corviknight to be very specialized and requires the team to support it where it struggles to check those threats. This makes it far less splashable and more matchup dependent, which limits its overally utility.
This issue is also further made worse by its tendency to need to roost often, further worsening its passivity. All that said, there is still some things it does unique that no other flier does, namely checking grounds while not really fearing knock as much. It isn't horrible, and so I'll echo that
corviknight.pngA- -> B+ is a more fitting drop.

On the subject of noms,

788 (1).png A- -> B+
This may be controversial or a hot take, but of the main bulky waters in the tier, I find Fini to be the most awkward. Its lack of recovery makes it feel like its very prone to being overwhelmed if it tries to check too many things by itself (an issue Corv faces too), and it feels hard to run as a weavile check AND a buffer to other things due to its propensity for being knocked by it. Maybe i'm missing something, but it feels less reliable than it should be. CM sets also aren't that great atm due to the prominence of staples like Glowking and Volcanion, who shut it down hard.

Like Corviknight, I don't think Fini is BAD, but i find it in a very awkward state where its issues are exploitable and it faces more competition than ever. So i feel a drop is justifiable.
 
I saw the corv discussion and wanted to chime in with my own bird

:skarmory: B to B+/A-

This mon is highly underrated imo. The ability to completely wall most of the physical attacker in the tier while also checking the remaining few. Unlike corviknight, it can also wall set up sweepers like hawlucha, sd garchomp and dd dragonite with the help of iron defence which corv has to forgo due to the necessity of u-turn. Skarmory can also use iron defence to simply end games when the opponent doesn’t have anything that can break it or any ghost types that can just eat body press.

Another way that skarmory can avoid being passive is by running spikes. Spikes in themselves are very powerful even with heavy booty dudes due to knock off being effectively everywhere, allowing skarmory to wear down common switch ins like dragapult or tapu koko after a knock off. Ferrothorn can also do this but skarmory’s spikes immunity and reliable recovery make it more difficult to wear down over the course of a game. Skarmory doesn’t even have to run spikes as it can run defog instead to threaten certain hazard setters such as ttar, landorus t and tanky garchomp while still not being as passive as corviknight, when the opponent doesn’t have a ghost type.

Skarmory still has a some flaws though. It can not check most if not all of the special attackers in the tier like heatran and volcanion with a lot of these special threats being able to easily switch into skarmory risk free like calm mind clefable or literally any ghost type. Lele is a notable one as you would expect skarmory to check it but in practice specs focus blast one shots skarm and scarf focus blast 2hkos, and that’s ignoring tbolt sets. While skarmory can run brave bird to help with this issue, it makes it highly passive against everything else and makes its defog sets completely outclassed by corv. The ability to get a spike up on a switch is good, but ferrothorn can do that just as well if not better as it can handle some special attackers. Sure you can try and utilise blissey and run the infamous duo but heatran can easily rip through the two with its trapping set while roost volcarona can do the same to non toxic blissey varients, making the duo worse overall. This is also ignoring the fact that magnezone can easily eliminate skarmory without even thinking about it and blissed can’t help if skarm gets trapped.

Skarmory doesn’t even check all of the physical attackers out there as well. Rain teams can decimate it with choice band barraskewda while hail teams can destroy it with blaziken or Arctozolt. Electric types are also a massive deal as almost any of them can switch into skarmory and force it out. Special mention goes to zapdos who is also immune to spikes and can defog them away with exceptional ease.

However, I still think skarmory is better than the viability ranking gives it credit for and while I’m not sure if it’s A- good, it should definitely be in B+ at a minimum.

TLDR skarm walls most physical attackers and can spike on anything it doesn’t but it gets destroyed by electrics and spattackers but it’s still good imo
The shortcomings you mentioned are the reason for skarmory to be ranked B. Every single special attacker can break through it and most special attackers can switch in for free. If skarmory had u-turn like corviknight it could pivot your pokemon in according to the opponent's choice. But sadly skarm cannot. Its access to spikes is the only reason to use it over corviknight in the meta and that is why it is still placed in B. I would also tell you to take a look at the other B's. All of them can fit on specific teams and play a good role similar to skarmory. If skarmory had better attacks to pick from it would definitely have become a meta staple by now similar to buzzwole but providing spikes (not gonna get in to the type differences as they both still check about the same things.
 
high ladder? tournament/ games?what?
this policy is stupid.
This policy weeds out people making bullshit theorymon nominations for their favorite Pokemon, or whatever other random trashmon they personally think is underrated. What would be stupid is if we based the VR thread on people posting obvious shit like a Pokemon's base stats and typing and the fact that it gets a good move or two and KOs a few things.

what you are asking is impossible for me to do.
How so? Do some laddering with Golurk. Join some tours. Find someone else who's already higher up on the ladder and convince them to use it. Or maybe it's impossible because the Pokemon you're nominating doesn't actually work in practice?

can't I just add that its access to poltergeist would probably change the metagame by forcing certain mons to rely either on consumables or no items?
Uh, no, that's still theorymonning...

Just because you can make an argument for something working on paper doesn't mean it actually works in practice. Every mon comes with an opportunity cost, and you need to prove that the mon you're nominating actually justifies that opportunity cost to use. This isn't something you can really do with on-paper arguments (nothing you've presented makes that case, certainly), this is something that needs some actual evidence to back it up, I.E. success in high-level play.
 

BT89

I COULD BE BANNED!
:ss/tangrowth:
C+ -> B-

Tangrowth is a surprisingly consistent Pokemon in OU at this stage in the game. I believe that, while its downsides are rather significant and prevent me from ranking it any higher than B-, its upsides in this tier are at least somewhat relevant enough to get this guy ranked higher.

I think the main reason I believe Tangrowth is a bit of a resurging presence is the rise of sand teams. Although facing some competition with Buzzwole, Tangrowth is still quite the fine pick on sand teams, as it synergizes quite well with staples of the style, namely things like Excadrill, Toxapex, and Rotom-Wash. Speaking of the latter, the resurgence of Rotom-W has been great for Tangrowth, as it is both a good partner for it (Grass-type check) and a strong check to it, as it fears nothing outside of Will-O-Wisp. Countering the increasingly relevant threats of Kartana and RIllaboom, as well as checking other less commons ones like Zeraora, is also quite the boon for it in this meta.

While there are some trends that it doesn't love seeing (more Dragonite usage, Heatran still being busted out the roof, etc.) , I still believe that Tangrowth is quite the tangible defensive presence in the tier due to the aforementioned traits giving it numerous favorable matchups against many high-to-top tier Pokemon, and definitely worthy of a rise to B-.

:ss/chansey:
UR -> C-

While still relatively niche compared to Blissey, Chansey still has some niche uses on stall teams as a bulkier version of Blissey. Sure, while taking hazard damage is pain, the additional bulk is an absolute godsend in terms of being able to eat up certain hits from multiple threats.

NOTE - These calcs are not ordered in terms of relevancy.

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 436-514 (62 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Rain: 597-703 (83.6 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 256-302 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 350-414 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

(Choice Scarf)
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 334-394 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 334-394 (47.5 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 458-540 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While it does require at least somewhat more support to reliably function as a special blanket check, namely strong hazard control, I generally find that the pay-off for having such things leads to a rather satisfactory award, as Chansey is more or less just a bulkier Blissey that can't hold an item (Eviolite). Overall, I definitely think Chansey is worthy of a place on the viability ranking at the moment. It is a usable defensive presence that, even after it loses its Eviolite, can act as a super solid special wall against a plethora of the tier.

Replays (from SCL)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-647265 - Chansey stalling out a Zapdos and being annoying to a Body Press Ferrothorn, even after both Defog users were KO'ed and hazards were stacked.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-649264 - Chansey forcing damage onto a Nasty Plot Rotom-Wash that can't really hit it outside of Pain Split (T65-68). Chansey getting Stealth Rock (T97) on Nasty Plot Rotom-Wash, and allowing for Quagsire to force out the Rotom-Wash (T97-106;110-117)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-648306 - Chansey constantly denying Clefable, and gets up Stealth Rock. Even after getting Knocked off, it tanks a Tornadus-T Hurricane as it falls to Toxic (Turn 188).
 
One low tier pokemon that deserves to be in the viability list is golurk.

Golurk is an underrated choice band wallbreaker that actually has a niche in OU.

let's start with its strengths(they are not placed in any particular order):

  1. it has a very good 124 base attack.
  2. its STAB moves with earthquake and poltergeist guarantee neutral coverage against almost anything that isn't named mandibuzz or galarian moltress
  3. it has the pretty decent ability no guard (reminder that this ability allows you to hit dragapult when it uses phantom force)
  4. its has an excellent movepool that gives it coverage for almost anything the metagame may throw to it(ice punch can guarantee a OHKO on landorus and dragonite,stone edge can 2HKO mandibuzz, heat crass has 68,75% chance to OHKO ferrothorn and a 2HKO corviknight,close combat can guarantee a OHKO against tyranitar)
  5. it is immune to almost every move in regieleki's movepool

now let's move to it's weaknesses(again in no particular order):
  1. it's bulk isn't good(it is not baraskewda levels of bad,but it is not great either, if baraskewda dies to anything then golurk may survive one attack,2 if it gets lucky)
  2. its 55 base speed is bad too
  3. you may need to be careful when using knock off since you may render poltergeist useless.
  4. without choice band its wallbreaking abilities become very limited.

I don't know which viability tier it belongs to.
I would say one of the lower tiers since the weaknesses are pretty noticeable and it also have to carry choice band at all times so maybe C rank at worst or C+ rank at best.
I don't think that it is that flawed to go to C- rank.
regarding golurk itself, the problems you mention actually massively hampers it viability and renders it unreasonable on most teams. its slow as all hell and quite frail (seriously game freak this is a massive armored robot it deserves better than 89/80/80) which means in practice it has trouble actually coming in and threatening things while not being mauled in the switch. its low bulk means it necessitates pivoting or good prediction to bring in, which isnt exactly a problem it alone faces, but unlike mons like weavile and koko its slow speed means that even if it does come in it has to be against a mon that cant just kill it. and even if you manage to get yourself in against a mon that it forces out, golurk's 124 atk isn't high enough to break some of the bulkier walls in the meta through raw stabs. its obscene coverage helps, but the catch is you actually have to click the right move against the mon that comes in. so in order to use golurk effectively you have to:
  1. get golurk in safely
  2. make sure it can actually threaten the mon in front of it without dying
  3. click the right move against whoever they are sending in to take the hit
so yeah. despite how cool ground/ghost with its ridiculous coverage is, golurk's low bulk and speed makes it a huge hassle to build and play with and it cant really compete with other breakers. this is not a problem golurk alone faces - other slow and fragile nukes like crawdaunt and conkeldurr also have many of the same issues and thus suffer from a relative lack of viability. i should mention, however, that unlike golurk crawdaunt (and to a lesser extent conk) breaks with the power of raw stabs stats and abilities instead of relying on coverage, as well as having knock off to make more consistant progress which makes them somewhat less prediction-reliant. access to priority aqua jet/mach punch also helps a lot with the speed issue, though they doesn't necessarily solve it. (golurk also has utility in the form of switcheroo, but as you mentioned losing the choice band severely hamstrings golurk's own breaking power).

the only occasion golurk can be a good breaker is trick room, where it actually gets opportunities to come in thanks to hat cress and p2's teleports and misty explosion. and obviously in trick room its low speed becomes an advantage. however even there golurk faces massive competition in the form of alolan marowak, which is frankly terrifying to face thanks to its powerful stabs backed up by thick club. and golurk's low bulk still bites it in the ass in the end thanks to its weakness to common priority such as weavile's ice shard, monkey's glide, and wetshifu/crawdaunt's aqua jets. golurk's best set in trick room imo is not choice band but life orb, which makes it loads less prediction reliant (it doesn't eliminate the issue though, you only have so many trick room turns so you'd better be killing stuff before they start beating you). really though, alolawak being on most if not all serious trick room teams is a huge slap in the face for golurk, and since trick room is already an extremely fringe playstyle its few redeeming qualities aren't enough for it to be ranked.

and yes, i have used golurk. not recently, but im confident that its issues a few months ago still holds up today, because low bulk and speed arent exactly issues that can be patched up with metagame shifts

also the eleki point is moot, any electric immune can do it, its not ever running its normal moves anyway aside from spin and explosion.

(first post in god knows how long woo)
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
It seems my friend is struggling to find replays of golurk putting in work, but have no fear, for I had already tried using this like 4-5 months ago and saved some replays from back then!

This is the set I used:
Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge

Speed hits 192, so you outspeed melmetal, conk, alolan marowak, uninvested heatran, and most clefable. Stone edge is useful to hit mandibuzz/moltres-galar, and imo you can smash pretty much anything with the right move so no need for switcheroo. No guard means poltergeist, stone edge, and dynamic punch will never miss. Confusion go brr.


The main reason to use golurk is for the strong and accurate poltergeist. It can function out of TR but does fine under TR as well if you want to spam poltergeist alongside marowak-A. Only downside is that poltergeist has negative synergy with knock off, best move in the game, but in a way that also frees up moveslots on teammates. Ground/ghost typing is cool and completely shuts down regieleki (not all ground types can block the spin!), it can still soft-check stuff like koko and glowking and click poltergeist+stay in vs clefable, slowbro, and magnezone.

As mentioned above, main problems are that its still kinda frail despite being so slow, so the list of pokemon it can safely attack vs is kind of low. I would disagree that it needs a lot of prediction because strong ghost stab is still broken and 80% of the time you can just get away with clicking poltergeist. I also think that it doesn't compete with marowak-A on TR teams because you would either be running both or just marowak-A, never just golurk.

For example of its frailness, this damage calc is pretty telling:
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 178-211 (52.8 - 62.6%)
This means you lose 1v1 to the OU flagship itself, even though you're the slow, bulky wallbreaker. Conk, crawdaunt, exploud etc all can stay in and scare lando-t out, but golurk must run if lando-t is healthy, which sucks. Ultimately, I still think golurk is underrated and could be at C- but that tier is bloated af so idc if it's ranked or not.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1578599006-zpb4rxw3q06dpy69q13t4o7ze7gif1tpw
Lost this one but golurk put in work, 2hko'ing stuff like lando-t and torkoal.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1584698767-ran1k67wvnxz1w1mx80vsdsm0whe2hvpw
Shows its worth more here grabbin 5 kills, being able to force out stuff like glowking and koko. Good MU saves it here.
 
It seems my friend is struggling to find replays of golurk putting in work, but have no fear, for I had already tried using this like 4-5 months ago and saved some replays from back then!

This is the set I used:
Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge

Speed hits 192, so you outspeed melmetal, conk, alolan marowak, uninvested heatran, and most clefable. Stone edge is useful to hit mandibuzz/moltres-galar, and imo you can smash pretty much anything with the right move so no need for switcheroo. No guard means poltergeist, stone edge, and dynamic punch will never miss. Confusion go brr.


The main reason to use golurk is for the strong and accurate poltergeist. It can function out of TR but does fine under TR as well if you want to spam poltergeist alongside marowak-A. Only downside is that poltergeist has negative synergy with knock off, best move in the game, but in a way that also frees up moveslots on teammates. Ground/ghost typing is cool and completely shuts down regieleki (not all ground types can block the spin!), it can still soft-check stuff like koko and glowking and click poltergeist+stay in vs clefable, slowbro, and magnezone.

As mentioned above, main problems are that its still kinda frail despite being so slow, so the list of pokemon it can safely attack vs is kind of low. I would disagree that it needs a lot of prediction because strong ghost stab is still broken and 80% of the time you can just get away with clicking poltergeist. I also think that it doesn't compete with marowak-A on TR teams because you would either be running both or just marowak-A, never just golurk.

For example of its frailness, this damage calc is pretty telling:
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 178-211 (52.8 - 62.6%)
This means you lose 1v1 to the OU flagship itself, even though you're the slow, bulky wallbreaker. Conk, crawdaunt, exploud etc all can stay in and scare lando-t out, but golurk must run if lando-t is healthy, which sucks. Ultimately, I still think golurk is underrated and could be at C- but that tier is bloated af so idc if it's ranked or not.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1578599006-zpb4rxw3q06dpy69q13t4o7ze7gif1tpw
Lost this one but golurk put in work, 2hko'ing stuff like lando-t and torkoal.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1584698767-ran1k67wvnxz1w1mx80vsdsm0whe2hvpw
Shows its worth more here grabbin 5 kills, being able to force out stuff like glowking and koko. Good MU saves it here.
It seems my friend is struggling to find replays of golurk putting in work, but have no fear, for I had already tried using this like 4-5 months ago and saved some replays from back then!

This is the set I used:
Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge

Speed hits 192, so you outspeed melmetal, conk, alolan marowak, uninvested heatran, and most clefable. Stone edge is useful to hit mandibuzz/moltres-galar, and imo you can smash pretty much anything with the right move so no need for switcheroo. No guard means poltergeist, stone edge, and dynamic punch will never miss. Confusion go brr.


The main reason to use golurk is for the strong and accurate poltergeist. It can function out of TR but does fine under TR as well if you want to spam poltergeist alongside marowak-A. Only downside is that poltergeist has negative synergy with knock off, best move in the game, but in a way that also frees up moveslots on teammates. Ground/ghost typing is cool and completely shuts down regieleki (not all ground types can block the spin!), it can still soft-check stuff like koko and glowking and click poltergeist+stay in vs clefable, slowbro, and magnezone.

As mentioned above, main problems are that its still kinda frail despite being so slow, so the list of pokemon it can safely attack vs is kind of low. I would disagree that it needs a lot of prediction because strong ghost stab is still broken and 80% of the time you can just get away with clicking poltergeist. I also think that it doesn't compete with marowak-A on TR teams because you would either be running both or just marowak-A, never just golurk.

For example of its frailness, this damage calc is pretty telling:
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 178-211 (52.8 - 62.6%)
This means you lose 1v1 to the OU flagship itself, even though you're the slow, bulky wallbreaker. Conk, crawdaunt, exploud etc all can stay in and scare lando-t out, but golurk must run if lando-t is healthy, which sucks. Ultimately, I still think golurk is underrated and could be at C- but that tier is bloated af so idc if it's ranked or not.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1578599006-zpb4rxw3q06dpy69q13t4o7ze7gif1tpw
Lost this one but golurk put in work, 2hko'ing stuff like lando-t and torkoal.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1584698767-ran1k67wvnxz1w1mx80vsdsm0whe2hvpw
Shows its worth more here grabbin 5 kills, being able to force out stuff like glowking and koko. Good MU saves it here.
Interesting Golurk set, could you get away with Expert Belt on Golurk instead of Choice Band?
 
I get that Corviknight doesn't hard-wall anything but that's been the case for it all generation. Corviknight does what it needs to do-- generate momentum, Defog semi-reliably, and soft check a lot of Pokemon. It's absolutely fine in A-, especially since it deals with a lot of the trends this metagame shift like Protect Melmetal, fat Rillaboom, and Excadrill.
Corviknight is also the cornerstone of many Stall teams that were used this OLT.

I understand what you guys are trying to say but putting it in the same tier as stuff like Moltres-G, Cloyster, or Scizor is kind of blasphemous.
 

Baloor

MORBIDLY A BEAST
is a Tiering Contributor
:Umbreon: UR -> C-

hi, been a while since I posted. haven't seen anybody talking about this so I wanted to make a brief post. Unfortunately, Umbreon has a niche in the ou tier now. Everybody knows how valuable the dark typing is in this meta so I don't need to elaborate on that. In a meta that has a ton of physical attackers, Physdef umbreon sets have found their way onto some balance builds as a cleric, wishpasser and a general soft check to most of the physical mons in the tier. Foul Play blasts anything that is not a resist due to how high attack stats are in the tier. Mons that carry status like toxic lando don't want to status it early because of Umbreons ability as well as it commonly carrying heal bell so you're actually making negative progress. WishPassing is also insanely annoying to deal with agaisnt umbreon due to how well it takes hits compared to some of the other wishers, making it pretty reliable in this role. In short, its a dark type mon that soft checks a lot of mons and can act as a reliable wish passing cleric while being able to scout out moves and threaten physical attackers (and common ghosts) with foul play, being relatively annoying to play agaisnt.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-650292
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-650917

im pretty sure umbreon was used more in OLT but this was all I remembered

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-649944

here's Pinkacross 's rmt from months ago that has additional replays and showcases Umbreons effectiveness a bit more than this post https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/umbreon-balance-peaked-1-2044-ft-cb-kartana.3702455/
 

Baloor

MORBIDLY A BEAST
is a Tiering Contributor
Your points are great. Funny how you said unfortunately, lol-but do you feel like it should be higher than C-, considering all its good qualities?
It's not ideal to nominate an unranked mon higher than C- unless there was a insane metagame shift that favored it and it suddenly became insanely dominate (see: arctozolt). C- is fine for now, if its usage increases and its winrate is steady enough then there shouldn't be a reason in the future to not rise it further.
 
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