Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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but... do you really think that umbreon should be so high? honestly, it minimally deserves a -C, seeing that it has a marginal suso, seeing it strictly, the poke does not offer much at this level, a sinister that minimally has the role of defending itself, being weak to tapus, clefable, alola ninetales, a possible melmetall (eye, it's a guess), urshifu, volcarona, definitely buzzwole... BUT, also being a "solid" check of dragapult, blacephalon, slowbro and Mew, the first ones I mention are the strongest ghost-type threats (although well blah it's just a solid poke going to good and that's it, nothing else), but also without flinching at the knock off of weavile or the extinct bisharp (which its use is already going down as far as I know), but honestly outside of that I don't care I see a lot of utility beyond the wish + protect set, since even that clefable and blissey have and with better function than umb, but minimum umbreon is more resistant than both on the physical side, apart from a few other things, I don't see why the moment or even that I should to be in C, since it seems too high for a poke with a niche so to speak, too specific honestly.. but hey, at least I like that it is in -C, which, is a good start :3
 
the poke does not offer much at this level
I don't think this part is fair. It's predictable and not a great switch-in to many OU threats, but it pairs incredibly well with other support mons and it's mixed bulk can not be understated. Even if you know exactly what it wants to do it will still burn turns and prevent sweeps with (boosted) foul plays. Using it requires a lot of role compression elsewhere on you team, but many top OU picks are inherently good at this and if you don't have a regenerator (or 2) it helps a ton in preventing progression.
 
I agree with that, and that's why I said at the end, that despite those problems, and that it probably doesn't deserve to be so high on the ladder, at least you can say that it's a very good defensively mixed pokemon, something that was out of the question. pokes like ferrothorn and a few others do, but with other functions apart from that, although as was said or should already be known, it must be something explored so that it at least becomes something more, oh that it can really have something to offer the level, for something I just said that I agree that they put it at "-C", however, at the moment I don't feel that it is so necessary that they raise it, I think *repeating the above* it is a good start for this mon, and more with everything said of the user who nominated him.
 
Some noms while I'm waiting for a delivery

787.png B- -> B
UrshifuR being so prominent right now a fighting type is enough to consider Bulu I feel, as bulky sets comfortably check CB Urshifu while it shrugs off scarf and PPad hits nicely. Also a nice check to Zeraora, Koko, Ferro while it possesses utility in toxic for switches like Buzzwole, TornT and Zapdos and can even cripple Rillaboom attempting to come in and set up. I'd also like to direct attention to bully sub+3attack sets, which take advantage of the switches it forces to sub and reduce prediction, making it harder to pivot around.

This game demonstrates SubBulu sweeping a rain team late game, being useful at several points despite taking a toxic.

A game showing at points Bulu's ability to stay healthy and get valuable chip behind a sub.

Another game where SubBulu sweeps a rain team late game.

tldr; use SubBulu. It's pretty cool and effective.

257.png B+ -> A-
The innovation of lefties Blaziken with some bulk investment, and many metagame elements make it feel like one of the most terrifying pokemon to see in team preview sometimes if you don't have one of the specific answers to it (Fini, Slowbro, Pex). It feels like there are some match ups it just wins on the spot after a boost. Even pokemon that seem like they should be on paper good short term stopgaps like Victini or Dragapult, aren't always so. In fact this shows bulky Blaziken get a second SD and just muscle past Victini since Vic can't hurt Blaziken enough.

Of course it isn't like Pex, Slowbro and Fini don't exist. But they also aren't impossible to beat. Blaziken is much more consistent overall than in the past, laddering on a new alt for fun with Blaziken was really easy in a short amount of time... and it comes across as a highly threatening sweeper in today's meta.

(Hot take also but Blaziken is much more terrifying than Volcarona at preview)
 
Even pokemon that seem like they should be on paper good short term stopgaps like Victini or Dragapult, aren't always so. In fact this shows bulky Blaziken get a second SD and just muscle past Victini since Vic can't hurt Blaziken enough.
Useless if Victini runs Psychic moves such as Psychic, Psyshock or Zen Headbutt, it can get through Blaziken.
All these moves OHKO Blaziken with the help of Choice Specs and Choice Band on their respective categories.
 
Useless if Victini runs Psychic moves such as Psychic, Psyshock or Zen Headbutt, it can get through Blaziken.
All these moves OHKO Blaziken with the help of Choice Specs and Choice Band on their respective categories.
HDB mixed attacker Victini is the only one on the Set VR, and according to the Smogon analysis doesn’t even run a Psychic move. Specs Victini is useless why would you use that. Band Victini might prefer Glaciate for Lando over Zen Headbutt but it could do either.
 
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V-Create can have disadvantages such as getting revenge killed because of the speed drop PLUS the Defense and Sp. Defense drops. there's always courage in switching out after a V-Create. Also that move loses OHKO power on Rain, it can't even OHKO a Max Defense Ferrothorn without Choice Band.
 
Useless if Victini runs Psychic moves such as Psychic, Psyshock or Zen Headbutt, it can get through Blaziken.
All these moves OHKO Blaziken with the help of Choice Specs and Choice Band on their respective categories.
You know you can look up move/item usage stats right? While we're in the middle of October, and thus the absolute most recent cannot be accessed quite yet (afaik) we can very easily look at September's. At high ladder, the most used Psychic move on Victini is Zen Headbutt at a staggering... 4.9%. If we get closer to low-mid ladder it rises a bit to 17% or so but that's still not particularly high. And Specs Victini sees like no relevant usage at any stage of the ladder. I can't imagine tournament stats being much better.

With all due respect, you've admitted to being a 1200s player in this thread before--your experience is not at all representative of the metagame and offers no value to determining the viability rankings.
 
Useless if Victini runs Psychic moves such as Psychic, Psyshock or Zen Headbutt, it can get through Blaziken.
All these moves OHKO Blaziken with the help of Choice Specs and Choice Band on their respective categories.
Psychic coverage does nothing for Victini on any set really. Bolt strike covers the main threats you'd run psychic coverage for (urshifu, toxapex) while being a strong hit on Slowbro and being useful to chip steels like Heatran. And both CB and scarf sets (the viable choice sets) are rocks weak and unable to pivot into blaziken if they're up (and CB still can't threaten a healthy Blaziken

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 144 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 244-288 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 144 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 236-278 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Which thanks to lefties and bulk investment, having a healthy blaziken isn't hard at all.
 
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In other hand, if Victini has any Psychic moves:

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 144 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 438-516 (129.9 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Psychic vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 492-582 (145.9 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, Victini will get OHKOed by Earthquake after a Swords Dance.
 
In other hand, if Victini has any Psychic moves:

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 144 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 438-516 (129.9 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Psychic vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 492-582 (145.9 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, Victini will get OHKOed by Earthquake after a Swords Dance.
Bro have u like not seen the previous posts

victini doesn’t run psychic moves because it’s shit with psychic moves. victini also runs boots to avoid rocks chip. people don’t want to run psychic on victini because it’s a waste of a ms and it’s normal coverage hits most relevant things that psychic hits anyways. please stop talking about choice victini with psychic stab

onto blaziken now.The chicken imo should stay at its rank rn as it needs tpunch/eq to hit prx slowbro fini.It also wants eq at the same time and maybe protect to get the speed boosts without dying. If u run text or eq , u cant touch fini pex or slowbro. If u run tpunch, u cant Get speed boosts as easily as blaziken takes a shitton from most moves.If played correctly with the correct moves, it’s probably one of the scariest things to see, but then again you can’t fit every move which decreases its threat potential.

basically what I’m saying is keep blaziken b+
 
In other hand, if Victini has any Psychic moves:

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 144 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 438-516 (129.9 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Psychic vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 492-582 (145.9 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, Victini will get OHKOed by Earthquake after a Swords Dance.
You're trolling, and it's working on everyone responding to you in this thread lmao

I also have to agree with Blaziken staying at B+, but that doesn't diminish the fact this Pokemon is horrifying to go up against when the conditions are in its favor, but that's the thing; a LOT has to be done before Blaziken can find its footing, such as chipping fat Lando, Pex, Fini, the Slows, and Dragapult (+2 Adamant Blitz ain't killing, and bulky Blaziken variants that don't run Jolly max Speed don't outspeed max Speed Dragapult at +1), just to name a few. Not to mention that Blaziken, even bulky variants, has to find that setup opportunity in the first place, which isn't easy for it to do. Blaziken without an SD isn't threatening much at all.
 
You're trolling, and it's working on everyone responding to you in this thread lmao

I also have to agree with Blaziken staying at B+, but that doesn't diminish the fact this Pokemon is horrifying to go up against when the conditions are in its favor, but that's the thing; a LOT has to be done before Blaziken can find its footing, such as chipping fat Lando, Pex, Fini, the Slows, and Dragapult (+2 Adamant Blitz ain't killing, and bulky Blaziken variants that don't run Jolly max Speed don't outspeed max Speed Dragapult at +1), just to name a few. Not to mention that Blaziken, even bulky variants, has to find that setup opportunity in the first place, which isn't easy for it to do. Blaziken without an SD isn't threatening much at all.
Fr he's been trying to get to some reaction points record while trolling or something lmao, nothing makes sense :row:

TL;DR of what I'm going to say is that Blaziken has a lot of drawbacks which make me agree that it should stay in B+. These include its limited longevity, matchup fishiness, and 4mss. In recent time it has succeeded expectations quite a lot and I think its current rank is appropriate for that reason, but more feels like a stretch. Plus, I think after the Melmetal suspect test (which I highly doubt will result in a ban) we'll begin to see more shifts in the direction of countering recent trends that have brought Melmetal to a boil. This somewhat also coincides with Blaziken.
 
In recent time it has succeeded expectations quite a lot and I think its current rank is appropriate for that reason, but more feels like a stretch.
If I may ask, what makes it feel like a stretch to you? It's not like Slowbro or Pex or Fini are not still present, yet it has still succeeded in spite of this (and showed pretty good effectiveness and consistency). The rilla+blaze team that was innovated has proven to work.

Plus, I think after the Melmetal suspect test (which I highly doubt will result in a ban) we'll begin to see more shifts in the direction of countering recent trends that have brought Melmetal to a boil. This somewhat also coincides with Blaziken.
I don't think we should judge noms based on future metagame changes that MIGHT come after a suspect but rather based on how it does now. At worst it doesn't feel any less threatening than Volcarona which sits in A-.
 
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B -> B-


This thing just doesn't do much of anything, outclassed by Corviknight as a defensive steel type and outclassed by Bisharp as an offensive one (also both sets are outclassed by Melmetal). The main selling point of scizor is it's stab priority bullet punch, which is only good against weavile, ninetales and maybe a chipped down pult out of every relevant offensive pokemon in the tier, with it being incredibly easy to predict when it finally gets the opportunity to use it too. Both of it's 2 main sets in defensive and offensive just lets every offensive thing you don't want in for free like Urshifu, Blaziken, Volcanion, Offensive Zapdos, Lando T, Volcarona, Pelipper, Galarian zapdos and Hawlucha(all of these mons can take the combination of bullet punch, U-turn, Knock off and Superpower, but realistically you aren't going to run all of those moves so you actually lose to a lot more mons than shown here, plus even if you got the right coverage you still have to read everything perfectly). and It's also too weak to ever break things like Corviknight, Zapdos, Dragonite, Buzzwole, Tapu fini, Lando T again and Skarm, and you also have to run weird moves like Sand tomb to even have a chance to break pex and zone before they kill or cripple you. This just makes it a U-turn bot for a lot of the games it finds itself in, which is very exploitable with all the hazard, rocky helmet, iron barbs and rough skin it has to eat from a game to game basis. This means you can only click U-turn a few times before being forced to roost, which the opponent can easily exploit. You could also go for knock off on these predicted switchins, giving it a slight niche over corvknight, which is why I'm not nomming it lower. It also loses to the common offensive ground types the tier has, something corviknight doesn't, while corviknight also provides a lot more pure bulk than scizor ever could. The only reason I could see this being used over corviknight defensively is if you really needed a steel type that that doesn't lose to random electric type coverage while being able to revenge kill weavile, or if you needed knock off on your steel type for whatever reason. Another notworthy thing about scizor is how it pathetically can't revenge kill tapu lele due to the psychic terrain which is pretty funny, meaning your best options are either knock off or U-turn. Last thing to note is how difficult it is to get in since can't take hits from any relevant offensive mon in the tier unless it's choice locked or if you predict whatever they're locking into, the only exception being ninetales (also it can't safely switch into weavile since it's knock off forces it to roost or bp which the weavile player can take advantage of and the lack of item for the rest of the game chips it down even more). And it also can't switch into most defensive mons since really hates the barrage of knock offs and scalds they use. Overall just a bad and too highly rated pokemon imo who has to go for predictions just to be decent which makes it inconsistent and it just doesn't do enough compared to other steel types.
 
some nominations I wanna make in no particular order:

:volcanion: A --> A-: meta changes haven't been kind to this thing imo, the increased usage of things like rotom-w and gastro is notable as they can eat most or all of what volcanion can throw out and threaten a super effective move in return, the increase of offensive mons that can take a hit like pult and lele also hurts it's viability in my eyes.

:rillaboom: A- --> A: this thing just messes things up, the majority of good defensive mons either hate getting knocked or can't take a grassy glide, grassy terrain gives it the longevity it needs to consistently threaten the defensive balance and stall cores that have become more common as of late by keeping itself healthy and letting it make more aggressive switches even with rocks up while easily avoiding getting worn down.

:urshifu: A+ --> A: a similar case as with volcanion, albeit not as severe, so many common pokemon can easily switchin to one or both of it's stabs and many even punish uturn attempts with damage or a potential static proc, most of these pokemon get 2hko'd with proper prediction, but with so many viable pokemon that get a free switch if the urshifu clicks the wrong move leaves urshifu feeling a bit prediction reliant in this meta, this of course, isn't the end all be all, but I think that the mark of a good A+ pokemon is that they don't nessisarially need to predict well to do their job

:mandibuzz: C+ --> B-: I think this mon has gone a bit under the radar as of late, but I think it actually has a ton of traits that are super valuable in this meta. mandi has a great niche as one of few pokemon capable of checking both special and physical dragapult, it also serves as a great answer to beat up weavile, toxic lets it threaten a ton of things that might want to switch into it while also giving it an option against various setup sweepers and u-turn makes it less passive than you might think, it's not amazing, but it fills a specific role that gives it a valuable niche that I think is worthy of more than c+
 
:volcanion: A --> A-: meta changes haven't been kind to this thing imo, the increased usage of things like rotom-w and gastro is notable as they can eat most or all of what volcanion can throw out and threaten a super effective move in return, the increase of offensive mons that can take a hit like pult and lele also hurts it's viability in my eyes.
Gastro and Washtom were popular when it rose last time honestly. Lele also can't take a hit (drops to sludgewave/bomb) and Pult is an emergency check at best. Volc still threatens a lot of teams and itself has a lot of important defensive qualities (being a water check itself) while also handling varients of Melmetal and checking physical attackers Rillaboom in a pinch. It is a good valuable mon rn so I think its fine where it is.
 
:urshifu: A+ --> A: a similar case as with volcanion, albeit not as severe, so many common pokemon can easily switchin to one or both of it's stabs and many even punish uturn attempts with damage or a potential static proc, most of these pokemon get 2hko'd with proper prediction, but with so many viable pokemon that get a free switch if the urshifu clicks the wrong move leaves urshifu feeling a bit prediction reliant in this meta, this of course, isn't the end all be all, but I think that the mark of a good A+ pokemon is that they don't nessisarially need to predict well to do their job
It literally 1v1's all of S & S- rank, bar Dragapult. Its ability to come in vs half the metagame and generate free momentum or attack is very valuable for all the teams it is used on. It is also the best Future Sight abuser at the moment so dropping it, but keeping Glowking and Tapu Lele in A+ is strange. The "punished by the right prediction" argument is poor imo:

You can say that "what if I bring my Ferrothorn on CB Surging Strikes?, you just lost 36% of your health"
But I can also say "what if I predict Ferrothorn and kill it with Close Combat?, dead Ferrothorn"
End of the day we're just going to be trading hypothetical scenarios that bring the argument nowhere.

Additionally, a lot of players who don't like Choice Band just run Protective Pads, which deals with every scenario you highlighted. There's a reason Urshifu has been a staple offensive threat-- extremely easy to support, brings a lot of defensive utility,... I am completely against dropping it.
 
It literally 1v1's all of S & S- rank, bar Dragapult. Its ability to come in vs half the metagame and generate free momentum or attack is very valuable for all the teams it is used on. It is also the best Future Sight abuser at the moment so dropping it, but keeping Glowking and Tapu Lele in A+ is strange. The "punished by the right prediction" argument is poor imo:

You can say that "what if I bring my Ferrothorn on CB Surging Strikes?, you just lost 36% of your health"
But I can also say "what if I predict Ferrothorn and kill it with Close Combat?, dead Ferrothorn"
End of the day we're just going to be trading hypothetical scenarios that bring the argument nowhere.

Additionally, a lot of players who don't like Choice Band just run Protective Pads, which deals with every scenario you highlighted. There's a reason Urshifu has been a staple offensive threat-- extremely easy to support, brings a lot of defensive utility,... I am completely against dropping it.
completely fair, and I'd be lying if I said my opinion on this drop wasn't biased on the teams I use, I simply don't find it as good in practice as it seems on paper, although your point point about futureport pairing is something I'll admit I didn't really consider that much, I'd say I probably agree with you now on keeping urshi in A+
 
What if you bring a Garchomp (or Ferrothorn) with Rocky Helmet on CB Surging Strikes?
This becomes a whole prediction game and it boils down to a bunch of what-ifs.

Urshifu-S abuses Future Sight very well, so the bottom line is that you have to keep pressuring your opponent, before worrying about "what if he has a rocky helmet chomp". Helmet or not, Garchomp can't really switch into Urshifu in the first place and Ferro dies to CC.
 
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