Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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Hey all! I'm back on this thread for some more misc. noms. Normally I'd write about just one Inparticular, but I've got quite a few on my mind I really wanna talk about, so they'll be much shorter than usual, but a lot more rapid-fire esque.

Rise Nominations!

:Gengar: C+ -> B-
And the OU VR Perfect Attendance Award Goes to...

Jokes aside, I can see where people are coming from with Gengar competing with the other Ghosts so heavily. But I do feel like Gengar is fairly under explored in OU, and a clear cut above the rest of the Pokémon found in C+ Tier, especially as a Ghost Type with both Focus Blast, and Nasty Plot. Choice Scarf sets consisting of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Trick, and Nasty Plot have been absolute godsends to my Hyper Offense teams, being able to reliably RK Scarf Kart for these teams I've always felt is a huge boon in Gengar's favor, as well as being able to trick away its Choice Scarf once it's no longer needed to go for the game with Nasty Plot and a still respectable speed tier, both the great speed control they provide, as well as being another setup threat with Trick Utility are things Blacephalon and Dragapult would love to be able to do themself, this isn't to say Gengar's worthless outside of Hyper Offense though, Focus Blast also makes it a genuine option to consider on Ghost Spam, being able to take advantage of common Ghost Resists and Blow them Sky-High, with Nasty Plot being able to increase its potency if left unchecked, and make it even better at pressuring common Ghost switch ins, Achieving absurd feats like overwhelming Toxapex, Heatran, and Blissey singlehandedly with Relative ease with such a ridiculously strong Shadow Ball/Focus Blast respectively.
Nasty Plot Giga Drain on Non-Choice Scarf Sets also allow Gengar to lure and remove Gastrodon near instantly, who otherwise has no qualms walling a majority of the other Ghost Types in the tier, making the Ghost type of your choice to complement Gengar much more easily able to go to town, Giga Drain also has Great Synergy with Life Orb, and Gengar's naturally low HP Stat, allowing Gengar to hit extremely hard, minimize their Life Orb recoil with 29 HP IVs, and offset said recoil thanks to Giga Drain. All the while making Gengar surprisingly resiliant for a Pokémon otherwise so frail. All these traits make Gengar, while still flawed, and not always justifiable over other ghosts, feel extremely under-appreciated in the current Metagame.

:Hydreigon: B -> B+
Just as its design would imply, I believe Hydreigon is a total beast in OU right now, only bolstered by the rise of Bulkier Grounds that struggle to immediately threaten it, like Hippowdon and Gastrodon just to name the two big ones. Access to Nasty Plot and a Defensive Profile sent down from the Gods above to capitalize on this rise only makes Hydreigon even scarier.
Hydreigon also has some extremely good defensive utility, being able to find plenty of set up oppertunities on common defensive cores, and pressures them like nothing else quite can, shredding defensive cores like they're paper in a lot of cases where they don't have the tools to break it, and only really struggling if the opponent has Clefable (which is a common scenario yes, but teammates that help VS Clefable aren't too hard to come across.)
Overall Great Pokémon from my experience, and with the overall bulkier direction the meta's taking, Hydreigon's gonna make people regret it, while slotting on these bulkier teams excellently itself.

:Reuniclus: B- -> B
Speaking of a Pokémon that takes advantage of Bulkier Metas, this Mitosis Master is becoming quite a threat. There's not a lot in the current metagame that walls the combination of Psyshock + Thunder besides Ferrothorn, and there's much less common Pokémon that pose an immediate threat than you'd think bar Tyranitar and Weavile, who can still be caught with Focus Blast if you choose to opt for it. I'd argue its on par with Calm Mind Clefable as one of the better Calm Mind sweepers in the Meta, because while it's marginally harder to get going with than Calm Mind Clefable, it's significantly harder to stop when it does.

:Keldeo: C - C+
Might be a hot take, but I feel like Keldeo is super scary on rain. While obviously not an automatic Addition, Keldeo's Choice Specs set can still be absolutely nuclear under the effects of rain, even 2HKOing Toxapex After Stealth Rock Damage!
Flip Turn and Scald also give it really good midground options to make it a lot easier to avoid sinking momentum via failing to predict properly (though let's be real you're probably just Hydro Pumping everything in sight.)
Secret Sword is also extremely relevant for helping break down Pokémon that Rain Pokémon normally struggle to handle, and in my opinion is what allows Keldeo to be justifiable over another Rain Breaker like Volcanion or Thundurus Therian, Being able to take down Gastrodon can be huge for Keldeo's Partners like Zapdos, and Seismitoad, as well as easing Barraskewda's Predictions later on, while also allowing Keldeo to force out Pokémon like Blissey or Ferrothorn with relative ease to use to generate momentum with Flip Turn!
Still very niche, but it has its uses for rain teams.

Drop Nominations!

:Dragonite: A -> A-
Deathly afraid of Washing Machines and Weasels, both of which are incredibly prevelant right now, and as a result means Dragonite is rarely outright sweeping with its offensive sets, and its utility sets are just too prone to being worn down by what their supposed to check (Specifically Kartana/Rillaboom Knocking Off Boots, Heatran being able to Poison it, Pads Urshifu being able to taunt it on recovery turns, etc.)
Still a solid pick you can't really go wrong with, but its potency has diminished slightly in my opinion.

:Scizor: B -> B-
Forgive me Xenon but it must be done :(
Look, I love Scizor, but they're just not having a good time right now. Physically Defensive Sets have just never struck me as useful, and Offensive Scizor just has too many moves it wants to be running to realistically be reliable right now.
Not only that but regardless of what it runs, Zapdos, Offensive Heatran, Volcanion, Victini, Volcarona, and Corviknight will always give it trouble, meaning even in the ideal scenario it gets to set up and has the coverage move it needs to beat the opponent's check, it's likely not getting much further than that without immediately being punished and putting you right back on the backfoot (or in the case of Zapdos, or Corviknight, not getting anywhere at all and just thudding into it helplessly the entire game.)

:Slowking: A- -> B+
With all due respect to his majesty, I have yet to find a reason to run them over Slowbro, especially with Slowbro being able to don some extra Special Defense to pivot around the same things Slowking checks, not even to say anything of Galarian Slowking who I've gotten far more mileage out of. I just fail to see the reason to run this over Slowbro anymore, I'm certain a reason exists, I've just yet to find it.

:Nidoking: B -> B-
here we have (what I believe is) yet another Fallen King, Nidoking had his time in the spotlight, but it feels like the overall structure of the metagame has wised up to his tricks, and come to the conclusion of "don't let in the big scary slow frail breaker." Don't get me wrong, his highness still shreds teams unprepared for his Kingly presence, but a lot of the offensive metagame seems to just snuff him out before he gets the chance to do much. To say nothing of defensive Pokémon who don't let it in as freely showing up more often making it even more reliant on Slow Pivots, like Hippowdon, Rotom Wash, heck even Specially Defensive Garchomp isn't safe until it's revealed it's slower than Nidoking.
Still Powerful under the correct circumstances, but requires more team support than it used to imo, as well as those circumstances becoming more rare as the meta evolves.
 
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haven't been paying attention at all to the SWSH OU scene for quite some time, would anyone like to explain the sudden rise for gastrodon? i hear that gastrodon is mad good in OU as of right now but have never known why
Essentially what it boils down to is just how many Pokémon it checks with such ease, and so much more reliably than other options can.
A lot of Ground types can stop Zapdos or Tapu Koko Short term, but are overwhelemed by being chipped by Hurricane and Dazzling Gleam Respectively.
Not Gastrodon though, they can sit in front of these two very comfortably and force them out with Earthquake and Toxic respectively.
It's also a very capable answer to threats like Offensive Heatran, Dragapult, Rotom Wash, Volcanion, and many others.
A pretty short answer, but that's the jist of it.
 
:Nidoking: B -> B-
here we have yet another (what I believe is) Fallen King, Nidoking had his time in the spotlight, but it feels like the overall structure of the metagame has wised up to his tricks, and come to the conclusion of "don't let in the big scary slow frail breaker." Don't get me wrong, his highness still shreds teams unprepared for his Kingly presence, but a lot of the offensive metagame seems to just snuff him out before he gets the chance to do much. To say nothing of defensive Pokémon who don't let it in as freely showing up more often making it even more reliant on Slow Pivots, like Hippowdon, Rotom Wash, heck even Specially Defensive Garchomp isn't safe until it's revealed it's slower than Nidoking.
Still Powerful under the correct circumstances, but requires more team support than it used to imo, as well as those circumstances becoming more rare as the meta evolves.
Does Garchomp OHKO Nidoking with Earthquake even at 0 Atk EVs? And also Nidoking gets outspeed by a Garchomp by neutral 120 Spe EVs because Nidoking mostly runs Modest Nature instead of Timid. Garchomp can run Yache Berry to avoid the OHKO from Ice Beam (it takes about 58 - 68.8% damage) but it loses Leftovers recovery.

Hippowdon has 81.3% chance to OHKO Nidoking with Earthquake and it is 2HKOd by Ice Beam.

Rotom-Wash can't switch into a Sludge Wave, it has 98.4% chance to 2HKO it. Hydro Pump OHKOes Nidoking, but if it misses a Hydro Pump, Rotom-Wash gets a instant regret. Also Nidoking can OHKO Rotom-Wash using Earth Power with the help of Gravity.
 
Does Garchomp OHKO Nidoking with Earthquake even at 0 Atk EVs? And also Nidoking gets outspeed by a Garchomp by neutral 120 Spe EVs because Nidoking mostly runs Modest Nature instead of Timid. Garchomp can run Yache Berry to avoid the OHKO from Ice Beam (it takes about 58 - 68.8% damage) but it loses Leftovers recovery.

Hippowdon has 81.3% chance to OHKO Nidoking with Earthquake and it is 2HKOd by Ice Beam.

Rotom-Wash can't switch into a Sludge Wave, it has 98.4% chance to 2HKO it. Hydro Pump OHKOes Nidoking, but if it misses a Hydro Pump, Rotom-Wash gets a instant regret. Also Nidoking can OHKO Rotom-Wash using Earth Power with the help of Gravity.
First off, yes, Garchomp does OHKO Nidoking from Full in every scenario, even without any attack investment, that's why I specified Nidoking being a "big scary frail slow breaker."

second of all, I'm talking about Nidoking switching in on Rotom Wash and Hippo, not vice versa, in both of which Cases Nidoking risks dying immediately because of how naturally powerful Hydro Pump and Earthquake are coming off of them, when Nidoking dismantling balance/fat teams is like, its one job, which leaves it far more reliant on Slow Pivots than it already was. To a point it's a bit worrysome how often it needs to come in from them because of its defensive ineptness despite having such a theoretically good defensive type.

Though I suppose I shouldn't feed the troll, so that's all I'll say on the matter.
 
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Yeah Scizor is really not great right now. B- does seem like a good rank for it. SD sets are extremely wallable so its best niche is a strong, possibly Banded U-Turn. Bullet Punch, which is also better Banded, is helpful priority if you hate Weavile. A big problem is it's quite hard to get Roost opportunities, and using Band makes Roost even more difficult (although not impossible)

Nidoking still seems very good though, its attack options are extremely hard to switch into if you bring it in safely. It's swept me multiple times although to be fair I suck at building defensively sound teams.
 
Hey all! I'm back on this thread for some more misc. noms. Normally I'd write about just one Inparticular, but I've got quite a few on my mind I really wanna talk about, so they'll be much shorter than usual, but a lot more rapid-fire esque.

Rise Nominations!

:Gengar: C+ -> B-
And the OU VR Perfect Attendance Award Goes to...

Jokes aside, I can see where people are coming from with Gengar competing with the other Ghosts so heavily. But I do feel like Gengar is fairly under explored in OU, especially as a Ghost Type with both Focus Blast, and Nasty Plot. Choice Scarf sets consisting of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Trick, and Nasty Plot have been absolute godsends to my Hyper Offense teams, being able to RK Scarf Kart for these teams I've always felt is a huge boon in Gengar's favor, as well as being able to trick away its Choice Scarf once it's no longer needed to go for the game, this isn't to say Gengar's worthless outside of Hyper Offense though, Focus Blast also makes it a genuine option to consider on Ghost Spam, being able to take advantage of common Ghost Resists and Blow them Sky-High, with Nasty Plot being able to increase its potency if left unchecked.
Nasty Plot Giga Drain on Non-Choice Scarf Sets also allows Gengar to lure and remove Gastrodon near instantly, who otherwise has no qualms walling a majority of the other Ghost Types in the tier, making the Ghost type of your choice to complement Gengar much more easily able to go to town. All these traits make Gengar, while still flawed, and not always justifiable over other ghosts, feel extremely under-appreciated in the current Metagame.

:Hydreigon: B -> B+
Just as its design would imply, I believe Hydreigon is a total beast in OU right now, only bolstered by the rise of Bulkier Grounds that struggle to immediately threaten it, like Hippowdon and Gastrodon just to name the two big ones. Access to Nasty Plot and a Defensive Profile sent down from the Gods above to capitalize on this rise only makes Hydreigon even scarier.
Hydreigon also has some extremely good defensive utility, being able to find plenty of set up oppertunities on common defensive cores, and pressures them like nothing else quite can, shredding defensive cores like they're paper in a lot of cases, and only really struggling if the opponent has Clefable (which is a common scenario yes, but teammates that help VS Clefable aren't too hard to come across.)
Overall Great Pokémon from my experience, and with the overall bulkier direction the meta's taking, Hydreigon's gonna make people regret it, while slotting on these bulkier teams excellently itself.

:Reuniclus: B- -> B
Speaking of Pokémon that take advantage of Bulkier Metas, this Mitosis Master is becoming quite a threat. There's not a lot in the current metagame that walls the combination of Psyshock + Thunder besides Ferrothorn, and there's much less common Pokémon that pose an immediate threat than you'd think bar Tyranitar and Weavile, who can still be caught with Focus Blast if you choose to opt for it. I'd argue its on par with Calm Mind Clefable as one of the better Calm Mind sweepers in the Meta.

:Keldeo: C - C+
Might be a hot take, but I feel like Keldeo is super scary on rain. While obviously not an automatic Addition, Keldeo's Choice Specs set can still be absolutely nuclear under the effects of rain, even 2HKOing Toxapex After Stealth Rock Damage!
Flip Turn and Scald also give it really good midground options to make it a lot easier to avoid sinking momentum via failing to predict properly (though let's be real you're probably just Hydro Pumping everything in sight.)
Secret Sword is also extremely relevant for helping break down Pokémon that Rain Pokémon normally struggle to handle, and in my opinion is what allows Keldeo to be justifiable over another Rain Breaker like Volcanion or Thunderus Therian, Being able to take down Gastrodon can be huge for Keldeo's Partners like Zapdos, and Seismitoad, as well as easing Barraskewda's Predictions later on, while also allowing Keldeo to force out Pokémon like Blissey or Ferrothorn with relative ease to use to generate momentum with Flip Turn!
Still very niche, but it has its uses for rain teams.

Drop Nominations!

:Dragonite: A -> A-
Deathly afraid of Washing Machines and Weasels, both of which are incredibly prevelant right now, and as a result means Dragonite is rarely outright sweeping with its offensive sets, and its utility sets are just too prone to being worn down by what their supposed to check (Specifically Kartana/Rillaboom Knocking Off Boots, Heatran being able to Poison it, Pads Urshifu being able to taunt it on recovery turns, etc.)
Still a solid pick you can't really go wrong with, but its potency has diminished slightly in my opinion.

:Scizor: B -> B-
Forgive me Xenon but it must be done :(
Look, I love Scizor, but they're just not having a good time right now. Physically Defensive Sets have just never struck me as useful, and Offensive Scizor just has too many moves it wants to be running to realistically be reliable right now.
Not only that but regardless of what it runs, Zapdos, Offensive Heatran, Volcanion, Victini, Volcarona, and Corviknight will always give it trouble, meaning even in the ideal scenario it gets to set up and has the coverage move it needs to beat the opponent's check, it's likely not getting much further than that without immediately being punished and putting you right back on the backfoot (or in the case of Zapdos, or Corviknight, not getting anywhere at all and just thudding into it helplessly the entire game.)

:Slowking: A- -> B+
With all due respect to his majesty, I have yet to find a reason to run them over Slowbro, especially with Slowbro being able to don some extra Special Defense to pivot around the same things Slowking checks, not even to say anything of Galarian Slowking who I've gotten far more mileage out of. I just fail to see the reason to run this over Slowbro anymore, I'm certain a reason exists, I've just yet to find it.

:Nidoking: B -> B-
here we have yet another (what I believe is) Fallen King, Nidoking had his time in the spotlight, but it feels like the overall structure of the metagame has wised up to his tricks, and come to the conclusion of "don't let in the big scary slow frail breaker." Don't get me wrong, his highness still shreds teams unprepared for his Kingly presence, but a lot of the offensive metagame seems to just snuff him out before he gets the chance to do much. To say nothing of defensive Pokémon who don't let it in as freely showing up more often making it even more reliant on Slow Pivots, like Hippowdon, Rotom Wash, heck even Specially Defensive Garchomp isn't safe until it's revealed it's slower than Nidoking.
Still Powerful under the correct circumstances, but requires more team support than it used to imo, as well as those circumstances becoming more rare as the meta evolves.
Good post tho I don't know how I feel about hydreigon rise it's defensive utility doesn't dissapoint as you mention but I find it struggles to turn that into offence against a lot of popular teams especially with that speed tier maybe just me not using it right though so feel free to correct me.
 
Does Garchomp OHKO Nidoking with Earthquake even at 0 Atk EVs? And also Nidoking gets outspeed by a Garchomp by neutral 120 Spe EVs because Nidoking mostly runs Modest Nature instead of Timid. Garchomp can run Yache Berry to avoid the OHKO from Ice Beam (it takes about 58 - 68.8% damage) but it loses Leftovers recovery.

Hippowdon has 81.3% chance to OHKO Nidoking with Earthquake and it is 2HKOd by Ice Beam.

Rotom-Wash can't switch into a Sludge Wave, it has 98.4% chance to 2HKO it. Hydro Pump OHKOes Nidoking, but if it misses a Hydro Pump, Rotom-Wash gets a instant regret. Also Nidoking can OHKO Rotom-Wash using Earth Power with the help of Gravity.
How have you not been banned, or at least warned yet? Anyways, I agree with all the drops noms above. Though, in my opinion Dragonite still has a lot of room to put in work as the bandage for offensive grass and water-types that isn't stagnant for most teams, which makes me question the drop. Weavile and Washtom are problems yes, especially Weavile, but that has historically always been the case even in their popularity. I think its mainstay is the offensive presence and defensive utility it offers all in one that is very valuable for many teams, despite its shortcomings.

The Slowking nomination is very accurate. It fails to carry much utility when compared the other defensive water-types of the tier that you tend to get more mileage out of. It still has its uses, such as better managing Volcanion, Keldeo, Nihilego, Latios, and Latias (though none of these but Volcanion have been relevant recently, contributing to a decline in its general matchup utility). Though somewhat unrelated, Slowking-G is thriving right now in my opinion due to experimentation with sets like Nasty Plot and / or Trick and items like Colbur and Shuca berry, and the occasional Sticky Barb that carry a lot of offensive utility on fat and balance teams alike.
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey all! I'm back on this thread for some more misc. noms. Normally I'd write about just one Inparticular, but I've got quite a few on my mind I really wanna talk about, so they'll be much shorter than usual, but a lot more rapid-fire esque.

Rise Nominations!

:Gengar: C+ -> B-
And the OU VR Perfect Attendance Award Goes to...

Jokes aside, I can see where people are coming from with Gengar competing with the other Ghosts so heavily. But I do feel like Gengar is fairly under explored in OU, especially as a Ghost Type with both Focus Blast, and Nasty Plot. Choice Scarf sets consisting of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Trick, and Nasty Plot have been absolute godsends to my Hyper Offense teams, being able to reliably RK Scarf Kart for these teams I've always felt is a huge boon in Gengar's favor, as well as being able to trick away its Choice Scarf once it's no longer needed to go for the game with Nasty Plot and a still respectable speed tier, both the great speed control they provide, as well as being another setup threat with Trick Utility are things Blacephalon and Dragapult would love to be able to do themself, this isn't to say Gengar's worthless outside of Hyper Offense though, Focus Blast also makes it a genuine option to consider on Ghost Spam, being able to take advantage of common Ghost Resists and Blow them Sky-High, with Nasty Plot being able to increase its potency if left unchecked, and make it even better at pressuring common Ghost switch ins, Achieving absurd feats like overwhelming Toxapex, Heatran, and Blissey singlehandedly with Relative ease with such a ridiculously strong Shadow Ball/Focus Blast respectively.
Nasty Plot Giga Drain on Non-Choice Scarf Sets also allows Gengar to lure and remove Gastrodon near instantly, who otherwise has no qualms walling a majority of the other Ghost Types in the tier, making the Ghost type of your choice to complement Gengar much more easily able to go to town. All these traits make Gengar, while still flawed, and not always justifiable over other ghosts, feel extremely under-appreciated in the current Metagame.

:Hydreigon: B -> B+
Just as its design would imply, I believe Hydreigon is a total beast in OU right now, only bolstered by the rise of Bulkier Grounds that struggle to immediately threaten it, like Hippowdon and Gastrodon just to name the two big ones. Access to Nasty Plot and a Defensive Profile sent down from the Gods above to capitalize on this rise only makes Hydreigon even scarier.
Hydreigon also has some extremely good defensive utility, being able to find plenty of set up oppertunities on common defensive cores, and pressures them like nothing else quite can, shredding defensive cores like they're paper in a lot of cases, and only really struggling if the opponent has Clefable (which is a common scenario yes, but teammates that help VS Clefable aren't too hard to come across.)
Overall Great Pokémon from my experience, and with the overall bulkier direction the meta's taking, Hydreigon's gonna make people regret it, while slotting on these bulkier teams excellently itself.


Drop Nominations!

:Dragonite: A -> A-
Deathly afraid of Washing Machines and Weasels, both of which are incredibly prevelant right now, and as a result means Dragonite is rarely outright sweeping with its offensive sets, and its utility sets are just too prone to being worn down by what their supposed to check (Specifically Kartana/Rillaboom Knocking Off Boots, Heatran being able to Poison it, Pads Urshifu being able to taunt it on recovery turns, etc.)
Still a solid pick you can't really go wrong with, but its potency has diminished slightly in my opinion.

:Slowking: A- -> B+

With all due respect to his majesty, I have yet to find a reason to run them over Slowbro, especially with Slowbro being able to don some extra Special Defense to pivot around the same things Slowking checks, not even to say anything of Galarian Slowking who I've gotten far more mileage out of. I just fail to see the reason to run this over Slowbro anymore, I'm certain a reason exists, I've just yet to find it.
I agree with these noms

:gengar:

I've been using Gengar for quite a bit and its really better than the rest of C+. With its own scarf set, being able to take the threat of scarf Kartana out of your mind is such a blessing and ghost is generally just a good type because they are no longer afraid of Tyranitar. Aside from that points mentioned, Gengar often singlehandedly destroys stall if its strick scarf. Blissey can barely touch it and becomes nasty plot fodder which gets even nastier if their unaware mon is Clef instead of quagsire. I use this set on a balance team and it still performs really good

:hydreigon:

Hydreigon is simply much like Tyranitar. It is weak to half the type chart but somehow resists the other half. Just like Tyranitar's common band set, I think specs should also be a noteworthy set. Specs Hydreigon basically just goes 'click dark pulse click dark pulse' and everything just drops. There's a Clef on the enemy team? Spam flash cannon and the next time you start mindlessly spamming dark pulse Clef just drops. The only real problem is Tapu Fini but that has a lot of recovery issues and can easily be solved with the help of a teammate. I think a good set of specs Hydreigon consists of u turn, dark pulse, flash cannon and draco meteor. My original assumption of it needing like ten moves to beat everything is kinda thrown out the window with dark pulse, as how Tyranitar has shown that spamming dark moves can be very devastating

:dragonite:

I don't understand what this even does. Dragonite rarely ever uses a stab move and makes it kinda underwhelming even at +1, so much so that as soon as you break multiscale the common Weavile just shits at it at every corner or even scarf Lele. The only time Dragonite ever seems like a threat is when you somehow manage to give it more than two dragon dance

:slowking:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Slowking was mostly used as the biggest middle finger to Tapu Lele and I guess handle Heatran slightly better. I don't think it gets further than that. As you said, its galarian form is just better with its immunity to toxic and all. Galarian Slowking even handles Tapu Koko which these days has begun running annoying moves like toxic or nature madness and it can manfight Zapdos although not in a too prolonged fight since Zapdos can roost

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That out, I wanna make a couple noms myself

:garchomp: to S-

Said this before a few times and I still think that's the case. Scale shot sets are still as threatening as ever especially since Garchomp really appreciates Corviknight dropping out of favor. Now it's more than free to run aqua tail and delete Landorus out of the game and even dealing decent damage with a non stab move to Clefable or any fairy not named Fini. Its various options like lum, roseli or yache berry also goes a long way of making Garchomp a lot more irritating. Spdef sets have also risen in popularity, at least in the current SCL tournament and just on my experience, Garchomp is a very good check to the ever threatening Blacephalon with its fire resistance and huge bulk allowing it to take two or maybe even three shadow balls which makes beast clown easier to play around

:dragapult: to S

What can I say, ghost is just a ridiculous typing now without pursuit. Despite scarfers like Kartana and Lele giving it trouble, Dragapult's teammates can often times pick up the slack and play around them which gets easier due to its access to u turn. I'm not gonna say much more since everybody already knows what Dragapult does and of course, the surprise choice band sets can really screw you over if you're not careful

:pelipper: / :barraskewda: to B+

I know rain is strong but is it even that strong? I mean, Tyranitar is common right now and that thing always comes paired with some sort of water resist or even an immunity like Gastrodon. Compared to the likes of Victini, Excadrill or Rillaboom, I don't think the rain bois are as good as them not to mention that most of the time, you're restricted to using a specific set of pokemon because rain can be restricting. Not only that, rain can rarely ever afford to put it a dark or ghost resist which makes them very hard to play around. Hell rain is probably the freest shadow ball spam of ghost types. In the end, I think the amount of restrictions rain teams usually put on your own team makes these mons more of B+

:volcarona: to B+

Spdef Garchomp and Heatran, need I say more? These things completely sit on bulky sets. I guess even Gastrodon could count which means that offensive Volcarona has a tough choice between giga drain or psychic. It could run both but then Garchomp, Tyranitar and Landorus now have an easier time dealing with it. But really, the two mons I mentioned, which are more than common, just makes Volcarona's life very miserable
 
:dragapult: to S

What can I say, ghost is just a ridiculous typing now without pursuit. Despite scarfers like Kartana and Lele giving it trouble, Dragapult's teammates can often times pick up the slack and play around them which gets easier due to its access to u turn. I'm not gonna say much more since everybody already knows what Dragapult does and of course, the surprise choice band sets can really screw you over if you're not careful
I heavily disagree with this, dragapult is good, but nowhere near S tier, Imo the only mon even close to being S rank is heatran, and comparing heatran to lando, lando fits on more teams, provides more utility, almost as much offensive pressure, pult is a very vast attacker, but it's not a whole lot beyond that, and it's defensive utility is limited meaning the team styles it fits on are very limited and while it might be very good on those playstyles it's limited usability outside of them leaves much to be desired imo
 
:slowking:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Slowking was mostly used as the biggest middle finger to Tapu Lele and I guess handle Heatran slightly better. I don't think it gets further than that. As you said, its galarian form is just better with its immunity to toxic and all. Galarian Slowking even handles Tapu Koko which these days has begun running annoying moves like toxic or nature madness and it can manfight Zapdos although not in a too prolonged fight since Zapdos can roost
I personally don't understand why everybody is so hard on Slowking, while being so lenient on Slowbro. It only counters Tapu Lele and Volcanion (& Nidoking) reliably. But Tapu Lele is a notoriously difficult to counter A+ Pokémon. Meanwhile Slowbro counters... Urshifu and Barraskewda. That's also only one A+ mon, plus some baggage (I do not subscribe to Slowbro being a Melmetal counter, between Thunder Punch, Double Iron Flinch and Toxic + Protect). I suppose you could try to check SD Garchomp with Teleport -> Weavile, if you're at sufficiently high health, but it needs to eat +2 Earthquake, an exercise it can't repeat very quickly in the process. I managed to get suspect reqs for Melmetal solely by spamming a Slowking team (and I'm happy I did, since I ran into an avalanche of Leles, most of which were Choice Specs versions). I think I said this before, but Slowking is good in that it handles all special attackers that Tyranitar and Excadrill can't answer, and Future Sight is pretty good when paired with Choice Band Tyranitar, since STAB Crunch + Superpower is probably the closest thing you get to Pseudo-Urshifu-Single-Strike coverage. Still a somewhat unreliable mon, since it can lose to several specially offensive set-up mons *cough*CMFini*cough*, but I don't think it is that much worse than Slowbro, if at all.

Also want to push a nomination myself:

:Hippowdon: (B) -> (B+) or even (A-)

This Pokémon sticks out like a sore thumb among the other B-rank Pokémon right now, it sees high level tournament usage and success far above any of its peers. It's really not much worse against Heatran and Zapdos than Tank-Chomp thanks to the reliable recovery, while having an infinitely better match-up against opposing Clefable, especially Thunder Wave versions. And of course it provides weather control and chip damage via sand, making opposing weather teams significantly easier to handle. Definitely deserves a better rank right now in my humble opinion.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I personally don't understand why everybody is so hard on Slowking, while being so lenient on Slowbro. It only counters Tapu Lele and Volcanion (& Nidoking) reliably. But Tapu Lele is a notoriously difficult to counter A+ Pokémon. Meanwhile Slowbro counters... Urshifu and Barraskewda. That's also only one A+ mon, plus some baggage (I do not subscribe to Slowbro being a Melmetal counter, between Thunder Punch, Double Iron Flinch and Toxic + Protect). I suppose you could try to check SD Garchomp with Teleport -> Weavile, if you're at sufficiently high health, but it needs to eat +2 Earthquake, an exercise it can't repeat very quickly in the process. I managed to get suspect reqs for Melmetal solely by spamming a Slowking team (and I'm happy I did, since I ran into an avalanche of Leles, most of which were Choice Specs versions). I think I said this before, but Slowking is good in that it handles all special attackers that Tyranitar and Excadrill can't answer, and Future Sight is pretty good when paired with Choice Band Tyranitar, since STAB Crunch + Superpower is probably the closest thing you get to Pseudo-Urshifu-Single-Strike coverage. Still a somewhat unreliable mon, since it can lose to several specially offensive set-up mons *cough*CMFini*cough*, but I don't think it is that much worse than Slowbro, if at all.

Also want to push a nomination myself:

:Hippowdon: (B) -> (B+) or even (A-)

This Pokémon sticks out like a sore thumb among the other B-rank Pokémon right now, it sees high level tournament usage and success far above any of its peers. It's really not much worse against Heatran and Zapdos than Tank-Chomp thanks to the reliable recovery, while having an infinitely better match-up against opposing Clefable, especially Thunder Wave versions. And of course it provides weather control and chip damage via sand, making opposing weather teams significantly easier to handle. Definitely deserves a better rank right now in my humble opinion.
Just gonna speak for myself on why I'm not a Slowking fan and why I'm not that hard on Slowbro. First off, it's galarian form exists and can also handle Lele. Not as well as regular Slowking but decent enough. Even with just av, you can adjust its evs to live a specs Lele psyshock from full. I mean, its current set is meant to survive two Dragapult shadow balls but those things run modest now so it doesn't really matter so why not just move the evs. For Slowbro, yes, it may not be a hard counter to Melmetal but that's mostly because of rng which is not that reliable. Also, it can still use colbur berry to check Weavile and killing it with body press. That's the biggest reason for me because Weavile is that big of a pain in the ass. With Lele, it's still a pain but it can't really annoy its checks the same way Weavile can and its checks are easy to slap on a team like Ferrothorn or Melmetal or even galarian Slowking

The team you put in is also a sand team and just based on my own experience, those actually love having Slowking on their team because Tyranitar and Excadrill's unique defensive profiles actually synergizes with Slowking by handling Dragapult and Tapu Koko respectively. Also, it's not really a matter of how higher the viability pokemon you counter is or how many you do. It's a matter of how much a pokemon eases your teambuilding against certain threats. With the added competition from its galarian form who has an immunity to toxic, it would be kinda hard to justify using regular Slowking unless your primary concern is to absolutely not lose to any form of Tapu Lele

And now that you mention it, I agree with HIppowdon rise. It and Hydreigon performs rather consistently than the others at B rank and that reliable recovery can really get obnoxious from time to time
 
:gengar:

I've been using Gengar for quite a bit and its really better than the rest of C+. With its own scarf set, being able to take the threat of scarf Kartana out of your mind is such a blessing and ghost is generally just a good type because they are no longer afraid of Tyranitar. Aside from that points mentioned, Gengar often singlehandedly destroys stall if its strick scarf. Blissey can barely touch it and becomes nasty plot fodder which gets even nastier if their unaware mon is Clef instead of quagsire. I use this set on a balance team and it still performs really good
Gengar can run Energy Ball to erase Quagsire off the existance. Clefable has a 75% chance to be OHKOd by a Life Orb Sludge Wave. Also Icy Wind catches Lando off guard and OHKOing it after a Nasty Plot Boost. A set of Taunt, Mean Look and Toxic can be used to torture a Blissey who tries ro wall Gengar and stall Blissey until Poison finishes her up.

I know that Focus Blast OHKOes a Specially Defensive Tyranitar after a Nasty Plot, otherwise Choice Band variants will get OHKOed even without the boost.

Overall is not too bad, it has good coverage options such as Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast and even it gets both Hex and Venoshock and it has crippling moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave and a non miss Toxic. Gengar is quite versatile but it struggles to defeat Blissey with Special Moves, Gengar needs a Focus Blast with +4 SpA and a Life Orb boost to OHKO her.
 
Gengar is quite versatile but it struggles to defeat Blissey with Special Moves, Gengar needs a Focus Blast with +4 SpA and a Life Orb boost to OHKO her.
Gengar Taunts Blissey or tricks it a Choice item and completely shuts it down unless you run into the one lunatic on the ladder running Shadow Ball Blissey for exactly that circumstance. This isn't exactly a new interaction, this has been a thing for generations now.
 
Gengar Taunts Blissey or tricks it a Choice item and completely shuts it down unless you run into the one lunatic on the ladder running Shadow Ball Blissey for exactly that circumstance. This isn't exactly a new interaction, this has been a thing for generations now.
sure that is the case but taunt gengar is most likely gonna setup NP or focus blast and that gives a free switch in to smth like torn-t, its a pretty good scout for wtf genagr wants to do
 
sure that is the case but taunt gengar is most likely gonna setup NP or focus blast and that gives a free switch in to smth like torn-t, its a pretty good scout for wtf genagr wants to do
Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that pivotting into Gengar with Blissey is always a bad play, more so the idea that Gengar can't beat Blissey or needs to run some weird bullshit Mean Look + Toxic + Taunt set to do so is just not true.
 
I personally don't understand why everybody is so hard on Slowking, while being so lenient on Slowbro. It only counters Tapu Lele and Volcanion (& Nidoking) reliably. But Tapu Lele is a notoriously difficult to counter A+ Pokémon. Meanwhile Slowbro counters... Urshifu and Barraskewda. That's also only one A+ mon, plus some baggage (I do not subscribe to Slowbro being a Melmetal counter, between Thunder Punch, Double Iron Flinch and Toxic + Protect). I suppose you could try to check SD Garchomp with Teleport -> Weavile, if you're at sufficiently high health, but it needs to eat +2 Earthquake, an exercise it can't repeat very quickly in the process. I managed to get suspect reqs for Melmetal solely by spamming a Slowking team (and I'm happy I did, since I ran into an avalanche of Leles, most of which were Choice Specs versions). I think I said this before, but Slowking is good in that it handles all special attackers that Tyranitar and Excadrill can't answer, and Future Sight is pretty good when paired with Choice Band Tyranitar, since STAB Crunch + Superpower is probably the closest thing you get to Pseudo-Urshifu-Single-Strike coverage. Still a somewhat unreliable mon, since it can lose to several specially offensive set-up mons *cough*CMFini*cough*, but I don't think it is that much worse than Slowbro, if at all.

Also want to push a nomination myself:

:Hippowdon: (B) -> (B+) or even (A-)

This Pokémon sticks out like a sore thumb among the other B-rank Pokémon right now, it sees high level tournament usage and success far above any of its peers. It's really not much worse against Heatran and Zapdos than Tank-Chomp thanks to the reliable recovery, while having an infinitely better match-up against opposing Clefable, especially Thunder Wave versions. And of course it provides weather control and chip damage via sand, making opposing weather teams significantly easier to handle. Definitely deserves a better rank right now in my humble opinion.
Even in the event Melmetal toxics Slowbro, it can still pivot into it and punish DIB with rocky helmet chip. The helmet utility extends to also punish general uturn spam, stray contact attacks from buzzwole or CB Urshifu. It is just easier to fit onto more teams than Slowking, despite both having some passivity issues. Slowking can counter Lele and Volcanion, but it just doesn't make much of the turns it does come in and has really glaring passivity issues at times, not unlike another special pivot in Blissey.

That and the serious opportunity cost of running it over Glowking, which is a far more active special pivot that is also very awkward to pivot around. Glowking also has wide set possibilities which makes it a very good and reliable pokemon. It can even help pivot around specs Lele in a pinch. Speaking of Lele, the fact it runs scarf much more often generally makes Glowking plenty sufficient against it in general.

Slowking has teams it does very well on and that's a fact. But outside those teams... You have to really have a good reason to use it.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Overall is not too bad, it has good coverage options such as Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast and even it gets both Hex and Venoshock and it has crippling moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave and a non miss Toxic. Gengar is quite versatile but it struggles to defeat Blissey with Special Moves, Gengar needs a Focus Blast with +4 SpA and a Life Orb boost to OHKO her.
You don't need to one shot Blissey. The blob can barely touch Gengar at all and the only thing Gengar has to fear is thunderwave which can easily be scouted by a ground type. If blob doesn't have twave it basically can't do anything. It doesn't run shadow ball anymore because the acherus deathcharger got banned over a year ago
 
Gengar can run Energy Ball to erase Quagsire off the existance. Clefable has a 75% chance to be OHKOd by a Life Orb Sludge Wave. Also Icy Wind catches Lando off guard and OHKOing it after a Nasty Plot Boost. A set of Taunt, Mean Look and Toxic can be used to torture a Blissey who tries ro wall Gengar and stall Blissey until Poison finishes her up.

I know that Focus Blast OHKOes a Specially Defensive Tyranitar after a Nasty Plot, otherwise Choice Band variants will get OHKOed even without the boost.

Overall is not too bad, it has good coverage options such as Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast and even it gets both Hex and Venoshock and it has crippling moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave and a non miss Toxic. Gengar is quite versatile but it struggles to defeat Blissey with Special Moves, Gengar needs a Focus Blast with +4 SpA and a Life Orb boost to OHKO her.
these takes are straight up comical. in pokemon, each mon on your team only has 4 moveslots, and in this post alone you’ve listed 14 different moves gengar could run, none of which are shadow ball (the move it should be clicking most often). most of these have absurdly specific use cases (the quag matchup is not so dire that you’d be dropping valuable coverage/utility for energy ball, which also hits… uh… ttar? but focus blast does that far better), or are just terrible lure sets that will end up being a dead slot against most teams. none of that random coverage matters when you could just run STABs and focus blast and be walled by nothing in OU.

i don’t know enough about the meta to comment on gengar’s viability in it, but i just wanted to say that this guy is pretty clearly trolling from all the posts he’s made lately, and i wish y’all would stop feeding him. this junk makes reading through the thread a lot less interesting.
 
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Gengar can run Energy Ball to erase Quagsire off the existance. Clefable has a 75% chance to be OHKOd by a Life Orb Sludge Wave. Also Icy Wind catches Lando off guard and OHKOing it after a Nasty Plot Boost. A set of Taunt, Mean Look and Toxic can be used to torture a Blissey who tries ro wall Gengar and stall Blissey until Poison finishes her up.

I know that Focus Blast OHKOes a Specially Defensive Tyranitar after a Nasty Plot, otherwise Choice Band variants will get OHKOed even without the boost.

Overall is not too bad, it has good coverage options such as Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast and even it gets both Hex and Venoshock and it has crippling moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave and a non miss Toxic. Gengar is quite versatile but it struggles to defeat Blissey with Special Moves, Gengar needs a Focus Blast with +4 SpA and a Life Orb boost to OHKO her.
My brother, I'm going to make the assumption that you're not trolling but genuinely want to contribute to the discussions, and while it's great to show an interest and have the enthusiasm in the game none of what you've been posting since we've seen you around in the Metagame Discussion thread has been the way to go about it.
This Geng post is a case in point, making references to coverage moves Geng has no real reason to use, showing not really much if any understanding of the nuances of Gengar's use on a team in terms of how it offers and receives support and just bringing up its 1v1 potential vs some mons (incorrectly as well mind you as Geng does beat Bliss 1v1 without cheese sets as mentioned in other posts) and not actually concluding your posts at all (do you agree with a change in ranking? Do you not? Can you explain in any more detail why? etc).
This comes down to experience and understanding. You are, with all due respect, a low ladder player just about breaking even in W:L at the 1300s; this is not a place where you get an accurate reading of the current meta as people run all kinds of wack stuff and make all kinds of wack plays that keep them at that low level so taking what you see there in isolation as how the game at a solid skill level looks like just isn't the way. It's the reason why a lot of the sets and interactions you're talking about whenever you're discussing a mon in this post with someone make no sense and why people think you're trolling.
I get that you enjoy the game and just want to contribute and get involved with the community, but where you are now trying to discuss the meta in detail isn't the way to get involved cuz you don't understand it well enough and you just end up talking out of your ass; it doesn't make you look great, it doesn't add to the convo positively, and it doesn't help you learn in the best way. The best way to get involved at your level is being willing to learn, get involved in the Trainer Academy PS! room, get a B101 tutor, watch more high level ladder or tour games to get to grips with the meta at a decent level etc; that's how you get involved right now, not whatever this is.
Just wanted to get that out there in case you were wondering why you're getting dog-piled every time you say anything, this is why. No one blames you for being a learner, but trying to step outside your wheelhouse isn't the way to improve.
This is again assuming that you actually aren't trolling and if you are then you got me I guess.
 
:garchomp: to S-

Said this before a few times and I still think that's the case. Scale shot sets are still as threatening as ever especially since Garchomp really appreciates Corviknight dropping out of favor. Now it's more than free to run aqua tail and delete Landorus out of the game and even dealing decent damage with a non stab move to Clefable or any fairy not named Fini. Its various options like lum, roseli or yache berry also goes a long way of making Garchomp a lot more irritating. Spdef sets have also risen in popularity, at least in the current SCL tournament and just on my experience, Garchomp is a very good check to the ever threatening Blacephalon with its fire resistance and huge bulk allowing it to take two or maybe even three shadow balls which makes beast clown easier to play around

:dragapult: to S

What can I say, ghost is just a ridiculous typing now without pursuit. Despite scarfers like Kartana and Lele giving it trouble, Dragapult's teammates can often times pick up the slack and play around them which gets easier due to its access to u turn. I'm not gonna say much more since everybody already knows what Dragapult does and of course, the surprise choice band sets can really screw you over if you're not careful

:pelipper: / :barraskewda: to B+

I know rain is strong but is it even that strong? I mean, Tyranitar is common right now and that thing always comes paired with some sort of water resist or even an immunity like Gastrodon. Compared to the likes of Victini, Excadrill or Rillaboom, I don't think the rain bois are as good as them not to mention that most of the time, you're restricted to using a specific set of pokemon because rain can be restricting. Not only that, rain can rarely ever afford to put it a dark or ghost resist which makes them very hard to play around. Hell rain is probably the freest shadow ball spam of ghost types. In the end, I think the amount of restrictions rain teams usually put on your own team makes these mons more of B+

:volcarona: to B+

Spdef Garchomp and Heatran, need I say more? These things completely sit on bulky sets. I guess even Gastrodon could count which means that offensive Volcarona has a tough choice between giga drain or psychic. It could run both but then Garchomp, Tyranitar and Landorus now have an easier time dealing with it. But really, the two mons I mentioned, which are more than common, just makes Volcarona's life very miserable
I disagree with the garchomp rise and dragapult rise. Dragapult is nowhere close to S. Comparing it when landorous-therian is ridiculous. The only thing which is close to being compared with it is heatran and I feel it deserves a rise (Not going to talk about it). Garchomp is worth taking note of but I still feel that S- is a bit too high (Garchomp fan don't get me wrong).Garchomp's offensive set is very limited (Not much versatility). The defensive sets are nice but landot challenges the defensive set which leads to less number of defensive sets.
I agree with the volcarona drop. Pretty much every team could deal with it. But once its check is taken down it could put in work. I think it is worth dropping.
I would have to partially agree on the rain drop. The rain boys are having a bad time recently but I still feel they are the second-best weather to use (after sand).
 
I would have to partially agree on the rain drop. The rain boys are having a bad time recently but I still feel they are the second-best weather to use (after sand).
Rain definitely struggles a bit but I think sand isn't quite as good, ttar is good of course, but it's best set (at least in my opinion) is choice band which limits the effectiveness of sand "abusers" (mostly excadrill), drill struggles to break a lot of common defensive cores even more so than rain, steel birds will always be a problem even with their usage dropping, lando is still on the vast majority of teams which exca can struggle to break especially if it's being run wit banded tar leading to less longevity to abuse, washtom and zap will always give it trouble and multiple other threats can deal with it effectively, at least rain has multiple abusers to break down these checks over the course of the game, I'd say if rain drops, exca should too.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I disagree with the garchomp rise and dragapult rise. Dragapult is nowhere close to S. Comparing it when landorous-therian is ridiculous. The only thing which is close to being compared with it is heatran and I feel it deserves a rise (Not going to talk about it). Garchomp is worth taking note of but I still feel that S- is a bit too high (Garchomp fan don't get me wrong).Garchomp's offensive set is very limited (Not much versatility). The defensive sets are nice but landot challenges the defensive set which leads to less number of defensive sets.
I agree with the volcarona drop. Pretty much every team could deal with it. But once its check is taken down it could put in work. I think it is worth dropping.
I would have to partially agree on the rain drop. The rain boys are having a bad time recently but I still feel they are the second-best weather to use (after sand).
Set versatility doesn't really have anything to do with viability imo. It's about how easy a mon is to put on a team and how it fares in the metagame. Think of Weavile. That thing only ever runs band or boots yet its very good at its job. Not much versatility there and these days, Landorus only ever runs spdef sets anyway. Other sets are exceedingly rare and only ever used in specific teams

Rain definitely struggles a bit but I think sand isn't quite as good, ttar is good of course, but it's best set (at least in my opinion) is choice band which limits the effectiveness of sand "abusers" (mostly excadrill), drill struggles to break a lot of common defensive cores even more so than rain, steel birds will always be a problem even with their usage dropping, lando is still on the vast majority of teams which exca can struggle to break especially if it's being run wit banded tar leading to less longevity to abuse, washtom and zap will always give it trouble and multiple other threats can deal with it effectively, at least rain has multiple abusers to break down these checks over the course of the game, I'd say if rain drops, exca should too.
Excadrill isn't meant to break down defensive cores. That's Tyranitar's job. Excadrill's is simply to clean up the mess that Tyranitar makes. Those mons you mentioned, metal birds, Rotom, Zapdos and even Landorus, all of them don't appreciate switching into Tyranitar. The only real problem they both have is Buzzwall but every physically based offense team need to be ready for it and not just these two. However, I can definitely understand why one would think Excadrill should drop but not for the reason you mentioned. Mine is with Tyranitar using choice band, you don't really have a lot of turns to work with and it makes sweeping kinda tricky
 
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