Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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Katy

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so why ferro is A+, the only S tier and A+ tier mons it can checked are ferro, pex and slowbro. Like urshifu destroys it, +2 chomp eq destroys it, phero CCs and specs spectrier 2 shots it. what kind of defensive utility can it provide of?
Ferrothorn is a great glue Pokemon in the current metagame, not only as an entry hazard-setter but also at checking countless things, first and foremost the dangerous rain teams, which are a staple in the ou ladder recently, but also in tournament games, where rain archetypes are egtting used. So for the team it can help with Barraskewda and occosionally Azumarill. Furthermore it established itself as a great Pokemon ON rain teams as they appreciate the longevity Ferrothorn has with Leech Seed and moreover they appreciate having it on their teams as it grants them an electric-resist and grass-resist. I think its A+ ranking is justified and deserved and it shouldn't drop unless the metagame really trend in a direction where it's getting more troublesome for Ferrothorn to fullfill these roles.
 
In my opinion, :urshifu: belongs to S tier. It has always been a controversial pokemon since it was first released. It has the most spammable STAB move Wicked Blow which always crits and effectively has a base power of 120. Also, a combination of future sight + urshifu is absolutely devastating for a team to face. Teams are still forced to run either a regen mon + a dark resist, a bulky fairy or moltres/zapdos in hopes of not being completely obliterated by this mon. Even the latter two are not always effective strategies as with the new power creep it's easy to wear down the fairies(not to mention it has access to posion jab/iron head to overcome this) and even max defense birds get 2HKO'd by wicked blow. The only hope they have is that they can burn/paralyze to cripple urshifu but the odds are still not in their favor. Furthermore, urshifu has a priority stab move which it can use to beat faster threats if predicted correctly. Urshifu also has decent physical bulk which allows it to tank a few physical hits and a good base speed allowing it to out speed many common threats such as kyurem, heatran, melmetal, excadrill etc. And on top of all this, it has two equally strong sets (Life orb and CB), the former being a sweeper and the latter primarily functioning as a wall breaker with momentum. With all these things going for it, it belongs to S tier without a doubt, in my opinion.
 
Thanks a lot for the rankings! I am curious regarding rain (Pelipper/Barraskewda) ranking so low, given it is pretty viable even in high ladder.
Ferro and excadrill, while are superb mons, do not seem that good in this meta or at least I do not see them that much with Urshifu, Pheromosa, Cinderace and other threats around. Can you explain the ranking?
Also, Nidoking seems a bit high, could you develop a bit on that? There are other better ground types and while its coverage is fantastic it is outsped and ohkoed by a large part of the meta.
 

Zneon

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Great to see the viability rankings up again!!
A few things I would like to ask about is the rankings of Garchomp, Kartana and Tapu Koko.

What roles does Chomp in particular play? I have seen defensive RH and SD with Scale Shot mostly. What makes it A+?

Kart also I haven't seen too much of. Scarf and SD are obvious ones but again why is it good enough to be A? Scarf is easy to check and SD simply doesn't have the speed tier.

Lastly Koko also. It is completely walled by mons like Nidoking, Excadrill which are very strong mons or Ferro which can lay down hazards. Also it is not particularly strong either even with choice items. Why has it been given A-?

I am not making a point to change their rankings. I am simply asking why they have been put so and I wrote these points to illustrate, why I didn't think they would be in that respective ranking. It would be easier to understand if I get the answer directly concerning these points.
Going to try and answer these for you the best I can.

Garchomp's roles are mainly those two, however those 2 sets are outstanding in the current metagame. TankChomp is a good Stealth Rocker with pretty great defensive utility due to Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet allowing it to punish stuff like Melmetal, Urshifu, Pheromosa for attacking it, and even stuff like Swampert for pivoting against it. It deters pivoting attempts incredibly well while also not being passive due to its Earthquake still hitting very hard. Swords Dance + Scale Shot on the other hand is more of a offensive Stealth Rocker but incredibly potent as well, it can threaten a vast majority of the tier with that combo alone, allowing it to threaten and beat almost every Defogger in the current metagame. These make it the best Stealth Rocker in the metagame currently and very deserving of A+.

Kartana is A due to its potency. After an SD, its potency skyrockets since Leaf Blade / Sacred Sword / Knock Off hits the entire metagame at least neutrally and its amazing typing, both offensively and defensively leaves it OHKOd by a small pool of Pokemon especially ones that can outspeed and OHKO it too. Swords Dance is its most potent set currently however Choice Scarf is also good in surprising the Pokemon that can revenge kill it, Pheromosa without a Speed Boost and non-Scarf Spectrier especially, however I find Choice Scarf to be a less effective and overall good set than Swords Dance right now.

Tapu Koko is a pretty good offensive pivot. It pairs well with a lot of Pokemon, most notably Urshifu-S, Pheromosa, Rillaboom and Cinderace very well with the combination of its Speed and strong Volt Switch. Outside of the Choice Specs set which uses Volt Switch, its Heavy-Duty Boots set is great as well! While it cannot really hit stuff like Landorus-T or Nidoking particularly hard, it can just pivot out of its bad matchup against those two and bring in a check/counter to those Pokemon, and despite its power being only decent, its Speed coupled with its power is just enough to revenge kill a vast majority of Pokemon and use them for momentum, notably Slowbro, Toxapex, Urshifu-S, Moltres, Mandibuzz and Tapu Fini. Overall Tapu Koko has a great place in this metagame and its shortcomings prevent it from rising higher from A-, however Tapu Koko fits perfectly fine in A-.
 
I was also curious as to what the logic is for separating :magearna: from :urshifu: and putting it in S tier, as opposed to both being on the same A+ or S tier. Is it just the splashability of Magearna pushing it to S?
 
Because at its core, its just a slightly stronger staraptor. For an offensive mon it's quite slow and and the presence of regular zapdos hurts it a lot as kanto zapdos walls it and because you can't run both zapdos forms, there is a lot of opportunity costs to running zapdos-g instead of regular zapdos. And zapdos is pretty good right now so most people would rather run that. Also it doesn't even have roost.
True zapdos-kanto is argubly the biggest issue zapdos-galar faces, not only being argubly one of it's best counters with ressists to both it's stab but the species calause at the same time making players pick and chose which they would rather run. At the same time B- does still feel pretty low for one of the best scarfers and bander users in ou atm, with acess to U-turn, potent offensive and even defensive stab in fighting/flying, solid bulk, and decent coverage, used well it's a pretty solid pokemon on a level more akin to the pokemon in B or B+ than B-

Edit: i mean to put in the earlier post but here will do, just a thank you to all the volenteers that have helped shaped the valiability rankings, as it's an important resource for many players hoping to judge howeffective a pokemon in the metagame which is great for them questioning, discovering why and most importantly learning from it and thus improoving as players. this would not be possible without your efforts to take your own time to guage a fair and accurate list.
 

Perish Song

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I'd really like to know why both :pelipper: and :barraskewda: are so low down in B-. In my experience, rain has been quite a consistently good playstyle, so it's weird seeing it up there, as is seeing :urshifu:-RS, another mon usually seen only in rain teams, one rank above.
The usage of these two Pokemon is exclusive to rain. You don't use Pelipper to Defog/U-turn outside of Rain structures and Barraskewda doesn't find itself a spot on non-rain teams. Rapid Strike has seen some niche usage outside of rain structures, and since it's not revealed on the preview it's a surprise factor that can catch people off guard. Plus it's an offensive Pokemon that cannot be scouted via Protect and has a broken move in Surging Strikes. It still sees competition from its counterpart Single Strike, and other breakers but it's not entirely useless so Rapid Strike is fine where it is rn.

If you look further down in the viability rankings, you will notice that Sun components :torkoal: and :venusaur: are listed in C ranks, same as Hail components :ninetales-alola: and :arctozolt:. (I compare these three weather because every component is dependant on the weather factor, unlike sand where the components of a sand core can perform very well individually.) This is where consistency comes into play that rain is much more consistent than these two weathers so its components are ranked higher.
 
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A- > A

Imo one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. This mon only has a few common switch ins, Blissey, Slowking, Celesteela and Corviknight if it’s not packing Flamethrower. Nidoking also offers fantastic utility by not only being a Volt Switch immunity, but also absorbing TSpikes. Nidoking has more ways of getting in then previous gens whatever through Teleport from Bro or the various U-Turn abusers in the tier. Thanks to its defensive typing it can switch into Clef or Koko lacking U-Turn and claim kills. I think A tier would represent it better for the reasons above.

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A+ > S

This is the mon that started a debate on whether Futureport is healthy, the Slow twins are unhealthy, or it’s common partners are unhealthy. From that alone it should have a placement but I’ll continue. Bro only has one set and it is pretty damn good. There has been an influx of strong breakers like Specs Mag that appreciate its ability to bring them in and juggle teams with Future Sight. Due to it’s top tier bulk it can take almost any hit and switch out. All these things considered, Bro is highly splashable on Balance or BO. Forgive me for being a broken record but, stirring up a debate on FuturePort as something banworthy should be enough to land it a spot in S tier.

(Also Ferro going from A/A- tier in Pre-DLC/IoA to A+ tier in Crown Tundra is the inverse effect of power creep.)
 
I’d like to mirror some earlier sentiments in the thread but not as rudely- why is Swampert so low? I know that usage is not the sole factor in determining viability but Swampert has consistently had excellent usage, puts work in every single match, and in my mind, is nowhere near the level of its fellow B ranks. I’d like to argue for a jump to as high as A-. While seemingly jumping the gun a bit, I do genuinely feel as though Swampert is very good in this metagame and that its current rank is not at all reflective of its viability.

Edit: Also consider Swampert in the teambuilder compared to those around and above it on the VR. I haven't once been building and thought "I should throw on Gastrodon or Hippowdon instead of Swampert because they are equally as good." They aren't. Both are massive momentum sinks that are difficult to justify outside of stall and sand, respectively. Pokemon such as Dracozolt or Tapu Lele that are nowhere near as used as Swampert are ranked higher- Blaziken is higher ranked and fell to UU in just this shift! Slowking is most certainly worse than Swampert, yet is considered to have A- viability, which is what I am arguing for Swampert.

A- seems appropriate.
 
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True zapdos-kanto is arguably the biggest issue zapdos-galar faces, not only being arguably one of it's best counters with ressists to both it's stab but the species clause at the same time making players pick and chose which they would rather run. At the same time B- does still feel pretty low for one of the best scarfers and bander users in ou atm, with access to U-turn, potent offensive and even defensive stab in fighting/flying, solid bulk, and decent coverage, used well it's a pretty solid pokemon on a level more akin to the pokemon in B or B+ than B-

Edit: i mean to put in the earlier post but here will do, just a thank you to all the volunteers that have helped shaped the viability rankings, as it's an important resource for many players hoping to judge how effective a pokemon in the metagame which is great for them questioning, discovering why and most importantly learning from it and thus improving as players. this would not be possible without your efforts to take your own time to gauge a fair and accurate list.
It really isn't that good as a scarfer. Its worn down from helmet, crippled from flame body, bunker from pex, and static. These abilities cripple in what zapdos-g can do. Also having no longevity is very hurtful in the long run, being chipped by hazards, helmet, status, and recoil. It is outclassed as a fighting type by pheromosa because its naturally faster than the metagame barring regiliki, its ability to break through its counters is huge which is something zapdos-g cannot do. Also its very vulnerable to one of the more common strategies "futureport" making zapdos unable to switch into what you would soft check like urshifu-single strike, or something like hydreigon without draco. Its stabs are easily wallable and scarf and band are easily to be found out via damage calculator/ how fast it is and how they use it. If anything zapdos-galar should be lower, it dosent have much going for it especially in this very fast meta with spectrier, pheromosa, and garchomp that could all outspeed and do some serious damage to it. To conclude, zapdos galar isn't a very good pokemon because of how easily its wallable, Bulk up is slow and is unable to naturally break through helmet pex without lucky crits, and without burns, if at all. It is not that bulky with 90/90/90 defences and 125 attack isn't that much and isn't breaking through anything.

252 Atk Choice Band Zapdos-Galar Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
32.4% - 35.4% in recoil just from that and its easily played around because toxapex has regenerator. fighting stab is easily available these days via clefable, toxapex and slowbro. Brave bird is easily wallable and not spammable due to recoil
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Scarf has 0 hope barring a crit after rocks which is sad.
While being threatened left and right by status and chip damage
Also btw i corrected the shit ton of grammatical errors u had

Oh yeah, I didn't mention choice band, WHY? Because its outclassed by CB pheromosa in every way, coverage wise,ability wise, stat wise. Zapdos really shouldn't be used at all
 
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Fusion Flare

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Y’know, I really was thinking Zarude would fall off a hell of a lot more on a ranking like this, once zygarde got banned, but surprisingly, it’s still good enough for a solid B ranking. Is that what being able to stuff Spectrier’s attacks able to do to a Pokémon?
 
I am trying something new for this thread. Over the next 24 hours, you may ask questions about the initial rankings and I will answer as many as possible (some tomorrow when I am back from work and some the following day).
Don’t think this is necessary for everything considering its preliminary even though it’s for transparency sake. From running one of these in the past I think people should be aware lot of these rankings are subject to the people who’s running them and probably not a huge deal if things are placed a rank higher or lower. You shouldnt have to explain why weird PU mon in C- is not in C when it’s probably something most people dont even care too much about.

Thanks to team for rank thread.
 

Finchinator

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Don’t think this is necessary for everything considering its preliminary even though it’s for transparency sake. From running one of these in the past I think people should be aware lot of these rankings are subject to the people who’s running them and probably not a huge deal if things are placed a rank higher or lower. You shouldnt have to explain why weird PU mon in C- is not in C when it’s probably something most people dont even care too much about.

Thanks to team for rank thread.
I don’t disagree with this whatsoever, but I also believe that if people are genuinely confused and there are lots of new Pokemon in the metagame, it doesn’t cause much harm to give people a brief explanation if prompted. Keeping it in the thread also makes it more organized and encourages engagement, which I view as a positive. Definitely not a necessity, but not something I personally mind doing. But yea your point is fair
 
In my opinion, :urshifu: belongs to S tier.
I’d like to continue beating this Urshifu-Dark—> S drum and try add on some points that Anirav didn’t touch on.

I’ve always vehemently been a balance player, even in the start of DLC2. I’d like to just emphasise that 1.Urshifu almost invalidates balance without Clef or a physdef regenerator mon (not prefixed Slow-*) + dark + fighting resist. The CB set 2HKOs absolutely everything in the meta. The birds are not a switch in at all. Even Clef gets 2HKOed by predicted Iron Head/Poison Jab. This creates 50/50 guessing games every time Urshifu comes in on something that it can threaten, which is absolutely not hard at all considering it’s always paired up with Teleport users and Dark/Fighting coverage. Every game Shifu is in turns into

I threaten something -> Teleport mon comes in to sponge hit-> I switch out to something less than 97 base speed -> Teleport mon teleports into Shifu-> CB Shifu gets a gigantic hit/kill unless I get the 50/50 right. Even if I get it right, Shifu switches out again for round 2. If it’s LO/Bulk Up then I’m screwed

Reminds me of Gen 5 Keldeo a bit where unless you have a mon that resists both water and fighting, your team will get drowned by Specs Hydros (which almost led it to getting banned.)

While Shifu isn’t as outstanding against Offense and HO, it’s not exactly dead weight with 100/100 PDef to take a hit and priority sucker punch to boot. Even against Stall it’s capable of breaking through if right checks are removed

Another reason is,while not as splashable as Clef/Magearna, 2.Urshifu is absolutely splashable on almost any team. Shifu can fulfil any offensive role that’s needed whether on HO, Bulky Offense or even Balance. I’ve built Balance teams with Shifu in them entirely centered on removing Shifu’s checks and they’ve worked great.

A Pokémon that nearly every team needs to prepare for, just like Phero/Clef/Mag, sounds pretty S rank to me.
 
After an SD, its potency skyrockets since Leaf Blade / Sacred Sword / Knock Off hits the entire metagame at least neutrally
My Boy Buzzwole

Anyways my question is why is Buzzwole placed in the same tier as Blaziken? Blaziken is walled by some of the most splashable mons in the tier (Pex, Fini, Bro) and it still fails to break through them even with neat tech. It needs to be in pristine condition to even kind of sweep and it will always have to take a hit even when setting up. Killing itself with Flare Blitz recoil, especially if the opposing team has a Blissey sack, doesn't help either. Of course it's also probably going to UU. Buzzwole, on the other hand, walls many of the top tier pokemon. Garchomp, Melmetal, Urshifu, Excadrill, Kartana, Landorus-T, and Rillaboom (in A). It also functions as a blanket check to many lower-tier mons you may encounter on the ladder or in tournament, such as Diggersby, Terrakion, Zarude, Scizor, and Urshifu-R. Why is it then ranked so low? Maybe it's because futureport OHKOs it, but imo that's not dealbreaking when it deals with so many mons already. Sets nowadays may get away with not even running Bulk Up, which worsens it against Zarude but gives it means to pressure Fini, Bro, and Pex coming in, maybe with moves like Taunt or Toxic.
In general that B+ tier is fire and I don't see how Blaziken or Buzzwole fit into it, Blaziken being too bad and Buzzwole being too good.
 
Glad to see the VR back once more. Just something I do wanna point out, I'm kinda surprised to see Dragapult in A rank alongside Landorus, Blissey and Cinderace. Idk I feel like everytime I've tried Dragapult I just wish I had horse. All the mons in A rank feel more consistent than Pult to me and while Pult has dragon stab and fire coverage it still feels weak to me unable to really sweep or accomplish much other than being annoying with status + Hex. But Ttar and Buzz being so common because of horse really doesn't do it any favors. At least Lando always gives you value via Knock off or rocks while providing Electric immunity and checking a lot ot shit and Ace gives you that offensive momentum and priority. I struggle to see any sets that might guarrant Pult being A rank material, maybe one rank below? It's not strong enough not consistent enough (Can't even ohko Spec without specs) Perhaps Specs Pult is the wave and I'm missing out on that but I dunno I'd love to be proven wrong.
While specs and DD dragapult are strong offensive options, I think the most common use of dragapult is as on offensive pivot. It remains one of the fastest pokemon in the tier (and imo a solid scarfer) and has a great movepool, meaning its pretty customizable and has a lot of viable sets. If you're running a pivot set or the hex set and expecting it to sweep, I get why you might feel like you just want to use spectrier, but the mons are very different I'd hardly call them interchangable. If you're looking for a sweeping dragapult, i'd run dd.
 

Monky25

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I know this has been asked for but I don't think we've got a reasoning as to why swampert is in B rather than B+ or even A-. Its a fantastic wall that can utilize slow momentum with flip turn, and helps check a lot of mons like excadrill, blaziken, dracozolt, landorus-t, and more. It's definitely just as good as something like hydriegon or dracozolt in this metagame, if not even better.
 
I know this has been asked for but I don't think we've got a reasoning as to why swampert is in B rather than B+ or even A-. Its a fantastic wall that can utilize slow momentum with flip turn, and helps check a lot of mons like excadrill, blaziken, dracozolt, landorus-t, and more. It's definitely just as good as something like hydriegon or dracozolt in this metagame, if not even better.
In my understanding it's because many of the things it walls are also walled by higher tier pokemon more effectively. Excadrill and Landorus-T are pretty easy to wall, with things like Slowbro and Ferrothorn doing the job well with more support capabilities and longevity. Swampert isn't really too much of a check to Blaziken imo, as it is still OHKOed by a +2 CC 50% of the time, and it's hard to keep it in pristine condition when you want rocks up in the early game. Admittedly it does handily wall Dracozolt who will kill itself with LO/rocks over time but walling one mon in exchange for spikes or Futureport isn't really the best option for many balance teams. Of course, it does have positives for many BO and some Balance teams, being an electric immunity, rocker, and pivot, but it has many negatives and other higher-tier mons can do its job better while having more longevity to boot.
 

SketchUp

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so why ferro is A+, the only S tier and A+ tier mons it can checked are ferro, pex and slowbro. Like urshifu destroys it, +2 chomp eq destroys it, phero CCs and specs spectrier 2 shots it. what kind of defensive utility can it provide of?
To add on to what Katy said (because I believe Ferro does much more than check dangerous checks like the mentioned rain teams), Ferrothorn is amazing at taking advantage of defensive cores that lack the tools to immediately threaten Ferrothorn with a strong supereffective hit (e.g. Clef+Pex, Fini+Lando, many sand teams). It's one of the few mons that gets access to both Knock Off and hazards and is able to fit them both on a moveset without giving up important coverage. This enables Ferro to outlast many Defoggers in the long run when you take into account the higher PP of Spikes/Stealth Rock and the fact most Defoggers start taking 25% from Stealth Rock once you knock off their HDB.
It's also an excellent pivot because it puts a lot of pressure on threats like Specs Latios, Banded Melmetal, and Banded Rillaboom. Sure, they have the options to OHKO SpDef Ferrothorn, but their coverage options are generally quite easy to play around and hitting Ferrothorn with a STAB gives up a ton of momentum (either a free Spike or a pokemon gets Knocked Off). At the end of the day, an aggressively played Ferrothorn - i.e. not the cheesy Leech Seed + Protect strats - is one of the most annoying pokemon to face for the majority of bulky offensive and balanced teams. Personally I would put it in A rank together with Latios and Torn-T but A+ is fine as well.
 
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