Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

I think cloyster should move up because its shell smash set can be a devstating sweep if it sets up. Its solid defense can also set up spikes against certain variants of lando and garchomp. Rimbombee is a great set up mon with light screen reflect and sticky web and what makes it diffrent its amazing speed stat. It gives great speed control. Also garydos can be devistating wall breaker with dragon dance moxie sweep.
 

BT89

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Also, no :weavile:? I'm still gathering replays, so I can't nom him, but if I could, I'd nom him at least C or even B-
Weavile is on the VR, it’s in B if I am remembering correctly. But I’ll use this chance to re-instate this:

:ss/weavile:

B -> B+

This thing is quite devastating right now. It is great late-game, as it loves to destroy weakened teams. It is quite hard to switch into, and loves the fact that the broken bunnies were kicked from the tier. Combine it’s scary offensive presence with it’s good Speed tier, and it’s quite the scary offensive presence, a B+ mon for sure.
 
Rotom Heat
I am confused about Rotom Heat's C+ rating. I would have thought that with it's reasonable speed, defense, and strong attack combined with the stellar typing of Fire/Electric making it able to fill two major slots in a team, without being hard countered by many popular Pokemon. If there is a reason it is rated so low could someone please tell me?
 
Rotom Heat
I am confused about Rotom Heat's C+ rating. I would have thought that with it's reasonable speed, defense, and strong attack combined with the stellar typing of Fire/Electric making it able to fill two major slots in a team, without being hard countered by many popular Pokemon. If there is a reason it is rated so low could someone please tell me?
It's outclassed as a pivot by Tapu Koko, it's outclassed as a fire type by Heatran, it has insane 4MSS (it wants Pain Split, Volt Switch, Overheat, Defog, Nasty Plot, WoW, Toxic, Discharge and Trick) and it lacks reliable recovery
 
Agree on the rise for Torn-therian, this gen around, it became S some time ago on Oras, and I simply couldn't see it, with the thing having trash as his main stab, but what Tornadus brings to the table now, is completely different. The quicker it rises to S, the quicker it gets banned.
Hdb and NP open up a new dimension for Tornadus, while pivot sets are still good, these new additions make Tornadus a peculiar 'mon, one who, by himself, mind you, is able to wear down his own checks, and then sweep past them, this was something possible in the past only to parallel sweepers cores (think something like Scizor+Lucario in DPPt, dragon/fight spam in BW, MPinsir+Talonflame in ORAS and so on).
Of course, np+regen was also accessible to Slowking, what sets Tornadus apart then?
Just by looking in this page, there was a mention of Aegislash as a solid check, and technically, it would be correct, but Tornadus warps the notion of a check, Knock Off can permanently cripple any 'mon, choiced Aegislash included, and, after doing that switch out without worries (yes, Pursuit not being around also helps this gen), it can even switch with U-turn and keep up momentum, so that it later on has even more easier opportunities to come in and restore health, excellent speed, compared to Slowking, and honestly, flying to me, has become the best offensive stab since Gen 6, and it also has several coverage moves like Heat Wave, Weatherball and ugh... Focus Blast, if you ever used the av set, you're also aware that Tornadus isn't that frail, and can be allowed to run hp evs too if you're inclined to, I mean, we're talking about wearing down his own checks, some 2hkos can be missed if it allows Tornadus to survive and return lategame. Also Toxic destroys Zapdos and Roost Koko, not even funny.
Psychologically, Tornadus is a mental strain, both for the opponent that has to fight a semi-immortal sweeper, and the one using it, when they have to click Hurricane.
Honestly, the only real way to punish Tornadus' use during a battle, luck excluded, is to spam Knock Off and Stealth Rocks on every 'mon you have, and even then, he has Defog, obviously he doesn't have it with NP, but hey, he can be a utility spinner too, and a good one at that, that, and fucking Static, so luck.
 
Has been a long time since I made some nominations, so here goes-

RISES -

:Tornadus-Therian: : S

I agree with the above sentiments and also support this rise. The only very slight doubt in my mind is due to Hurricane's very dodgy accuracy, missing one at an unfortunate time can end all those amazing attributes like that but it is good to the point that despite this major flaw, it is still deserving of S tier.

:Dragapult: : S or at least A+

Okay this one might seem like a stretch but seriously this thing is amazing. It's specs set is absolutely tearing the tier up. Ghost resists are notorious for being extremely scarce and with it's immense speed, only beaten by Zeraora and Scarfers above 75, Pult takes full advantage of that fact. Also unlike the ghost horse, it has coverage or just plain good ol' U-turn to beat even Blissey and Mandibuzz. Specs is amazing on it's own but it has another incredible set in boots Twave which funnily enough, somewhat plays like baby Torn T, just making progress with Twave, u turning out of bad matchups and later breaking with boosted hexes. While it does lack Regen, It also stays alive forever because it takes no hazards and never gets hit due to it's ridiculous speed. So that comparison is something to think about. This set also makes full use of it's deceptively good defensive typing and decent bulk, checking things like Volc, Urshifu R, Keldeo, Slowbro, Venu, Tran etc. at least once. There are other sets like DD Sub or Weakness Policy DD which can situationally even end entire games and flex it's physical stab more. This thing is at absolute WORST top 5 mons in the tier and some may even rank it upto top 3 but it's tiering doesn't reflect that currently. It should at the very least be A+. I lean towards S but I think A+ would be more acceptable by the community.

:Tapu Koko: : A+

This thing is an absolute unit. Specs set is average but the set that really amazing is Boots with Roost. The main selling point of Koko imo is it's unparalleled defensive utility for an offensive mon in that it is an offensive yet very sturdy check to Torn T and Zapdos in particular. While the former can carry Sludge Wave or knock off and both can toxic, it still can hold off a majority of sets and it still survives even max sp atk Sludge Wave from former from full. Koko is also not nearly as crippled by knock off as other checks like Zapdos. While this is it's main utility it also checks either stab from +2 Lucha and banded Galardos, it survives +2 Ice shard from LO Weavile which is on the rise( more on that later) and +2 sucker from Bish, it stops any Corvi set up set in it's tracks, it checks Zeraora, Hydreigon, Twave Hex Pult, fini, and can switch into either kanto slow twins and Mandi just by it's typing and access to roost alone . Aside from this amazing defensive role, it fits the role of team's speed control just missing out on Pult and Zeraora, gives terrain control and can even play like extremely fast boots users with pivot moves that have become so common place this gen, just pivoting around, firing off hits, never being worn down and outlasting all counters (This description ironically again reminds of Torn T but it is honestly surprising to see how many mons can play like it just because of speed, boots and pivot moves (and also reliable recovery in Koko' case) ). It's decently strong too with the terrain boost, once the ground types and Ferro are sufficiently weakened, it can just overwhelm the opposing team with it's aforementioned longevity, speed and power. Unlike Regieleki, It honestly isn't extremely bad against grounds either because it can still do all it's above roles and just uturn out of all the non scarfed ground types, heck, chomp is even 2HKOed by Dazzling and Lando, Pert are chipped down too. Ferro, Nido and Exca are it's biggest hindrances because they wall it's dual stab and are not mons you want coming in for free but honestly it still doesn't do very poorly just by it's access to uturn and infact can even bait them in. Despite, this drawback, It just brings a lot of good traits to the table and generally still does performs its role and deserves A+ rank.
(Side note - It's screens set is good too and there is some potential of experimentation with taunt, toxic, nature's madness and volt switch on the boots set but the standard boots set is just so reliable and easy to use that there is really no need to try to change it.)

:Corviknight: : A+

This right here is a mon that has literally benefitted from EVERY SINGLE ban since the onset of Crown Tundra and banning of Cind and Mag were no exceptions either. There is really nothing too flashy to talk about this mon. It's standard set just has amazing defensive utility and is arguably the best defogger while being a great pivot. It checks the biggest names in the tier such as - Rillaboom (which seems to break through everything else with knock off and uturn), scarfed Kart, Lele (Also notorious for killing everything if it connects Focus Blasts), Lando T, Torn T and Chomp. While not as omnipresent, checking Melly, Exca, Dnite, etc. is also nice. It can also PP stall defensive mons with pressure like Ferro, Toxa, Clef, etc. and can even pressure stall Kyurem and Urshifu R 1v1. This is just an incredible glue mon that checks so many of the biggest threats around. This mon has overtaken the other birds save Torn and Lando because of it's not nearly as crippled by knock off like the other birds. We have been seeing teams such as Corvi offense and the huge uptake in the usage of Zone in SPLs is a testament to it's affect as well. It is another tier defining mon and should be A+.

:Rillaboom: : A+

I read some of the above posts and agree with the point people prior to me made about Rilla. Some points that I would like to reiterate are that it enjoyed the bans of the bunnies. It can force progress and potentially break through almost anything with Knock off (being especially devastating for the flying types) and U-turn , it can superpower Ferro and Tran, Glide also is the single most ridiculous move allowing it to revenge just about everything. It has had a huge impact on tier where all teams now accommodate for it by running multiple grass resists. It gives terrain control and arguably the best one for a team at that, making things like Tran and Pex so much more resilient and even helping boots users like Pult and Zeraora. It has great natural bulk which is augmented by it's own passive healing. It pairs extremely well with Zone which removes Corvi and Ferro, former being it's single best check and most definitely the team's most reliable answer to Rilla and the later being used to chip Rilla down. It is a tier defining beast to the point that sometimes people run High Horsepower on their ground types despite not packing one themselves. This is with 3 other terrain mons in the tier. It also is an easy A+ tier.

:Weavile: : B+

This thing has seen a huge uptake in usage since the Mag ban and for good reason. This thing absolutely shellacs balance builds. After SD. it even OHKOes max max Corvi after rocks more than 90% of time with LO Triple Axel. It OHKOes common revenge killers like Rilla,+1 defense Lucha, Regieleki, Pult with +2 LO Shard and Zeraora and Koko need a bit of chip to be put in shard range. It's speed tier is also blistering fast. Another set that is equally good if not more is Banded. It gives it more breathing room to chip down it's checks like Fini, Melly etc. (Incidentally the usage of both of these dropping helps it as well). while also being able to fit icicle crash as a 4th move to avoid RH, static and all those annoying things. It has very minimal defensive use too. It's spdef is actually decent so it can take 2 shadow balls from specs pult and one ice beam from specs kyurem with rocks up which is more than I expected from it before running the calc. With pickpocket it can punish knock off too which is ridiculously difficult to do in this meta game. Honestly, these are just side notes, it's main claim to fame is it's strong offense. Any team without Pex has a reason to fear it as an off beat but dangerous offensive threat.

:Bisharp: : B

This mon is such a great pick in the current meta game. It is one of the best defog abusers and teams that rely on Lando T, Brave Bird Corvi to check physical attackers are in for a rude awakening. We have recently been seeing Banded to go all in as a defog punisher to just get an OHKO in return. This mon was put in C tier in the first place because Urshifu S completely invalidated it and Mag, Spec and Cind were tough for it. Now with those mons banned, it does deserve a rise to reflect it's increased viability.

:Zapdos-Galar: :B-

This is another defog abuser. I don't think this is a splashable mon and is fundamentally flawed in that defog abuse strategy because all the birds can nuke it on the switch with their flying moves and zapdos kanto can survive and kill it even if it came in on defog. But C+ is still way too low for it. It completely dominates the omnipresent Lando T and outside of Zapdos, there are really not too many switch ins to this. I mentioned Koko earlier but it can OHKO Koko with banded stomping tantrum if it predicts right. Sub bulk up set is also amazing on webs. It is an effective nuke and does deserve B-.

DROPS -

:Kommo O: : C+

I am a huge Kommo O fan and have really tried every conceivable set to try to make it work in OU and sadly it just doesn't. I have tried offensive Bulk up, DD, offensive SD Scale Shot, Clangorus Soul, Defensive Body Press, Taunt rocks, defensive SD with wish support, Mixed attacker with rocks, taunt defensive bulk up, and belly drum. It is physical offensive sets are stopped by every bird, lando, clef, fini, pex, hippo, slowbro, all choice scarfers etc. It is just a much, much worse Chomp. It's defensive sets just don't accomplish anything. It used to be good against rain but then they started running hurricanes. Toxic and knock off are omnipresent, both of which are bad news for it. Even if walls something, it just gets whittled down while making zero progress itself. Special offensive sets are also suffer from lackluster damage output. The best bet Kommo o has is to cheese for wins with Sub Salac Belly Drum but it simply can't pick any move with drain punch. If it picks T Punch, then it gets revenged by Pult and if it picks EQ, it gets stone walled by Togekiss, Lando, Torn and Zapdos, if it picks Ice Punch it get walled by Slowbro and Pex. Not to mention, Phys def Clef survives any +6 attack save Poison Jab and Iron Head. This all is relevant IF it get's it's set up in the first place and even if it does, still every single Scarfer in the tier is faster then it. I implore the council to just drop Kommo o as soon as possible and just take away the false hope the VR gives me on seeing Kommo o in B.

:Tapu Fini: :B+

For a first few days after DLC 2, Fini was considered the best Tapu for it's new Calm Mind draining kiss set but slowly the meta game has been turning hostile to it. Every single grass mon in the tier stops this set in its tracks also giving Kart and Rilla free attacks coming off of pivots is also not ideal. Slowking Galar rose a lot in usage and it also completely stuffs that set. Mons Like Lele, Kyurem, Chomp, Pult can just overwhelm Fini and leave it too weak to set up later if not outright KO it. Outside of this set it is not A- good. It is overshadowed by Slow twins, Pex as water types defensive mons, Corvi, Zapdos, Torn T as defoggers and Heatran as a taunt user. There is no Spikes Greninja for it to check and defog on. Even something like Weavile, whose stabs Fini resists is better checked by Pex due to it's absurd longevity. It still is decent but just doesn't seem to be on the same level as Lele and Kart.

Edit: The Hydrei nom, it has been pointed out to me, is completely incorrect and I also see some of those points now. I think it should still be A- and not A but I am simply not the best person to make a nom for that right now. I NO LONGER am nominating Hydrei to drop.
 
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:Hydreigon: : B+

Okay why is this thing so high AFTER Spec ban. Heck it was actually given a rise after the ban. This just doesn't make sense. It suffers from so many problems like having a severe 4MMS, mediocre speed stat, stuffed by fairies etc. It has so much competition from Pult, Kyurem, Latios etc. It's one important role of being a ghost resist is not feasible anymore because Pult can nuke it with Draco in a single hit and Aegis can CC. It can still kinda be a Heatran check and switch into the slow twins while having ground immunity. But these qualities are also shared by Latios which has higher speed, special attack and spdef. It is also not completely walled by fairies. Nasty Plot is something that Hydra does have over Lati but that is difficult to fit with roost as 2 moves just don't cut it and if it doesn't have roost then it is not a Heatran check. A- along side Pult and Kyurem is a bit reaching and I think it's viability would be better reflected by being B+ alongside Latios, it's most obvious point of comparison.
[/QUOTE]

Jokler, I want to say I personally do agree with most of what you said, I definitely think the surge of a new wave is coming after bans and the big 5 is starting to fall upon mons like Dragapult, Tornadus, and Rillaboom. However I do not agree with Hydreigon being B+. I totally understand what you mean by the Spectrier ban, but Hydreigon does really still have a place in the meta. With the recent Mag and Ace bans about a month ago now(wow can't believe time goes by that fast!) I do think Hydreigon greatly appreciates that, and at the same time with Spectrier being gone it allows Hydreigon not to be forced into that lanky defensive role compression. In terms of an 4MSS, I don't think that's completely the issue. NP, Roost, Draco/Dark, and Earth Power can still nuke most of the tier hard barring Clefable, Fini, (Mandibuzz if Dark Pulse). I also believe that Hydreigon being a Heatran check and somewhat of a decent pivot into Rillaboom's stabs and ground moves is really important right now as well. B+ is kind of an understatement imo, A- might be fine though. Personally still I believe Hydreigon holds as an agressive balanced breaker than can provide a if not amazing, decent enough ghost resist, ground immunity, Heatran check, slow twins check, and switch in to Rillaboom's stabs. Roost is also extremely helpful since usually most of time your running LO on these things for the extra power boost. So while I see how Hydreigon can miss out on some benefits I don't think it's to the point where it should go back to B+. And as for competition between Pult, Latios, and Kyurem, It's moreso it being a bit worse than Pult overall, and still managing to just have a different breaking role than Kyurem and Latios, since it utilizes NP, and a Dark typing. Overall, I acknowledge your points.
 
:Hydreigon: : B+

Okay why is this thing so high AFTER Spec ban. Heck it was actually given a rise after the ban. This just doesn't make sense. It suffers from so many problems like having a severe 4MMS, mediocre speed stat, stuffed by fairies etc. It has so much competition from Pult, Kyurem, Latios etc. It's one important role of being a ghost resist is not feasible anymore because Pult can nuke it with Draco in a single hit and Aegis can CC. It can still kinda be a Heatran check and switch into the slow twins while having ground immunity. But these qualities are also shared by Latios which has higher speed, special attack and spdef. It is also not completely walled by fairies. Nasty Plot is something that Hydra does have over Lati but that is difficult to fit with roost as 2 moves just don't cut it and if it doesn't have roost then it is not a Heatran check. A- along side Pult and Kyurem is a bit reaching and I think it's viability would be better reflected by being B+ alongside Latios, it's most obvious point of comparison.
Jokler, I want to say I personally do agree with most of what you said, I definitely think the surge of a new wave is coming after bans and the big 5 is starting to fall upon mons like Dragapult, Tornadus, and Rillaboom. However I do not agree with Hydreigon being B+. I totally understand what you mean by the Spectrier ban, but Hydreigon does really still have a place in the meta. With the recent Mag and Ace bans about a month ago now(wow can't believe time goes by that fast!) I do think Hydreigon greatly appreciates that, and at the same time with Spectrier being gone it allows Hydreigon not to be forced into that lanky defensive role compression. In terms of an 4MSS, I don't think that's completely the issue. NP, Roost, Draco/Dark, and Earth Power can still nuke most of the tier hard barring Clefable, Fini, (Mandibuzz if Dark Pulse). I also believe that Hydreigon being a Heatran check and somewhat of a decent pivot into Rillaboom's stabs and ground moves is really important right now as well. B+ is kind of an understatement imo, A- might be fine though. Personally still I believe Hydreigon holds as an agressive balanced breaker than can provide a if not amazing, decent enough ghost resist, ground immunity, Heatran check, slow twins check, and switch in to Rillaboom's stabs. Roost is also extremely helpful since usually most of time your running LO on these things for the extra power boost. So while I see how Hydreigon can miss out on some benefits I don't think it's to the point where it should go back to B+. And as for competition between Pult, Latios, and Kyurem, It's moreso it being a bit worse than Pult overall, and still managing to just have a different breaking role than Kyurem and Latios, since it utilizes NP, and a Dark typing. Overall, I acknowledge your points.
[/QUOTE]

Well I agree with all your points as well. For the record, I think even B+ mons DO have a decent to average place in the meta game. I think you simply can't run Draco + EP due to Corvi and Ferro but then Dark Pulse leaves you to be walled by Mandi as you mentioned. It really is difficult to just fit in 2 moves on top of NP + Roost.
That being said, the attributes you mentioned are again shared by Latios. I think it would be more appropriate to have it along side Latios especially because what it gains in typing and NP, Latios has coverage and better stat distribution to combat that. I don't think A- would be a bad ranking for it either though, but I do believe it's worse than things like Lele and Kart by a good margin.
 

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:Hydreigon: : B+

Okay why is this thing so high AFTER Spec ban. Heck it was actually given a rise after the ban. This just doesn't make sense. It suffers from so many problems like having a severe 4MMS, mediocre speed stat, stuffed by fairies etc. It has so much competition from Pult, Kyurem, Latios etc. It's one important role of being a ghost resist is not feasible anymore because Pult can nuke it with Draco in a single hit and Aegis can CC. It can still kinda be a Heatran check and switch into the slow twins while having ground immunity. But these qualities are also shared by Latios which has higher speed, special attack and spdef. It is also not completely walled by fairies. Nasty Plot is something that Hydra does have over Lati but that is difficult to fit with roost as 2 moves just don't cut it and if it doesn't have roost then it is not a Heatran check. A- along side Pult and Kyurem is a bit reaching and I think it's viability would be better reflected by being B+ alongside Latios, it's most obvious point of comparison.
This entire part of your post comes off as completely misinformed about Hydreigon and other mons place in the metagame.

a severe 4MMS
Please define "severe" 4MSS. Not running every single possible move you would like to run does not constitute as "severe" 4MSS. If this was the logic we follow, many Pokemon would have "severe" 4MSS. It's moves can be catered to whatever the team in question would need Hydrei to do, which if anything gives it versatility and the ability to adapt to meta trends. It suffers from 4MSS less than say Lati or Melmetal, since Hydrei evein if not the exact 4 moves you want for a specific mu will still always do something, unlike the previously mentioned two.

mediocre speed stat
The "mediocre" Speed tier you mention is actually faster than very relevant threats like Nidoking, Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, Rillaboom, and Kyurem (the last of these you cite as competition btw). Calling this Speed tier mediocre is a ridiculous assertion, especially given Hydrei isn't meant to be an offense killer in itself.

stuffed by fairies etc
It is also not completely walled by fairies
Is it stuffed by them as you claim or not? Yes, no Flash Cannon means Clef is annoying but building teams with Hydreigon to handle Clefable well is not particularly difficult, and the ability to run Flash Cannon to hit it still very much exists. If we're talking other Fairies, Tapu Lele is outsped and takes a decent chunk from Dark Pulse and a ton from Flash Cannon, Tapu Fini lacks reliable recovery and tends to get chipped a lot over time, and Tapu Koko can't take Earth Power on the switch lest it either be KO'd or put into a tough position. I'm not saying Fairies aren't decent or even good answers, but your reasoning here is inconsistent and isn't as major as you let on initially.

It's one important role of being a ghost resist is not feasible anymore because Pult can nuke it with Draco in a single hit and Aegis can CC.
Saying its one important role was resisting Ghost is totally untrue, but whatever, I'll be getting to that part later on. To answer about the Ghost resisting, yes, it can't answer Dragapult. But does anyone use Hydrei as a hard answer to Dragapult? I'd assume not. At most, you're pivoting Hydrei in on a Hex before switching to something else that wouldn't want to take the Hex initially as they came in (think a status'd Clef partner paired with Hydrei just as an example). As for Aegislash, you can say this about any other Ghost resist, it doesn't devalue them as Ghosts resists to it that much (Blissey, Tyranitar, etc are still seen as at worst decent pivots). If anything, Hydrei is a better pivot because it's actually guaranteed to threaten to OHKO Aegislash post-Shadow Ball pivot.

It can still kinda be a Heatran check and switch into the slow twins while having ground immunity. But these qualities are also shared by Latios which has higher speed, special attack and spdef. It is also not completely walled by fairies.
Let's break this down bit by bit. Hydreigon gets annoyed by Toxic Heatran. However, it's still a good check to it and a much better check than Latios due to Latios having to hit with a really weak Aura Sphere since no one runs Surf. Also, Latios does not beat Slowking in any capacity since the SpDef makes Draco get almost all healed off by Regen. Meanwhile, DPulse is pretty free and does not come with a large drawback in dropping SpA and PP on a low PP move. Also, you're ignoring that Latios has very high odds to get 2HKO'd by Rilla Grassy Glide, which Hydrei doesn't (same goes for LO Leaf Blade Kart and Exca Iron Head if Hydrei holds Leftovers). Also, Hydrei is a better Ground check because of its previously mentioned better phys def while not missing any relevant special calcs. These points also refute your assessment Hydrei's "one important" defensive role was to stop Ghosts. The higher Speed is true, but it only really helps against Kartana, Garchomp (which can be invalidated if it gets off Scale Shot), Victini (which Hydrei can check just fine for the most part either way), and other Hydreigon (Galar Zap isn't very relevant even if I think it's slept on). Covered the part about Fairies already but yeah.

Nasty Plot is something that Hydra does have over Lati but that is difficult to fit with roost as 2 moves just don't cut it and if it doesn't have roost then it is not a Heatran check.
NP actually runs Roost + 2 Atks more often now compared to 3 attacks and the set still works well with Roost, so this point isn't really valid.

A- along side Pult and Kyurem is a bit reaching and I think it's viability would be better reflected by being B+ alongside Latios, it's most obvious point of comparison.
This just speaks to the point that Pult and Kyurem should rise to A if we're being honest since I do agree they have a higher overall threat level and are trending a ton at this stage in the metagame, it doesn't mean Hydreigon isn't worse. Also, Latios should really drop since it's not very good right now due to the points I made in this post, my other post in this thread, and other people's points on top of its SPL usage being totally nonexistent, meanwhile Hydreigon has way higher SPL and OST usage.

I think you simply can't run Draco + EP due to Corvi and Ferro but then Dark Pulse leaves you to be walled by Mandi as you mentioned. It really is difficult to just fit in 2 moves on top of NP + Roost.
That being said, the attributes you mentioned are again shared by Latios. I think it would be more appropriate to have it along side Latios especially because what it gains in typing and NP, Latios has coverage and better stat distribution to combat that. I don't think A- would be a bad ranking for it either though, but I do believe it's worse than things like Lele and Kart by a good margin
Dropping Draco and being walled by Mandi isn't as big a deal in a meta where Mandi isn't particularly amazing to begin with isn't that big of a deal. Also, you shouldn't be only running Draco and EP as your atks on NP sets. I combated the Latios arguments pretty sufficiently earlier in this post so not gonna get into that again. Also, Latios's movepool is not really better than Hydrei's when the Base Power of all moves is accounted for and the fact Hydrei has objectively better coverage, not to mention it can hit more mons in fewer moves. I do think Lele and Hydrei are both good A- mons though. Maybe Kart could afford to be A but this post isn't for me arguing anything about that since it divulges from the main purpose.

Okay why is this thing so high AFTER Spec ban. Heck it was actually given a rise after the ban. This just doesn't make sense.
Next time, I suggest doing more metagame research before nomming a Pokemon to drop and not putting statements like this about those making the VR. Also, try and use more metagame context to explain why say Latios's stat distribution is better for the meta or why Lele is a better mon overall to justify your position since when you don't, it's really hard to take your arguments seriously, especially with all that preceded that particular part.

Edit:
While a bit harsh, the point is effectively made. I'd also like to add Urshifu-Rapid-Strike as a key pokemon that it outspeeds, which has caused me much pain....
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That being said, the attributes you mentioned are again shared by Latios. I think it would be more appropriate to have it along side Latios especially because what it gains in typing and NP, Latios has coverage and better stat distribution to combat that. I don't think A- would be a bad ranking for it either though, but I do believe it's worse than things like Lele and Kart by a good margin.
Latios's coverage is definitely good, but I think it suffers harder from 4mss than Hydreigon does. While it's true that Hydreigon's STABs can't hit fairies, Latios's STABs can't hit steels, which are even more of a common thing, and having to choose between Mystical Fire or Aura Sphere or give up on trick basically means you're choosing between getting walled by Heatran or getting walled by Corviknight, which are 2 of the most common pokemon in the tier (without giving up on trick/CM or either STAB). It also struggles to fit Roost, as lacking NP means it needs the coverage far more than Hydreigon does, and thanks to its typing and low physdef, Latios is generally pretty lacking in defensive value at all.
 
Latios's coverage is definitely good, but I think it suffers harder from 4mss than Hydreigon does. While it's true that Hydreigon's STABs can't hit fairies, Latios's STABs can't hit steels, which are even more of a common thing, and having to choose between Mystical Fire or Aura Sphere or give up on trick basically means you're choosing between getting walled by Heatran or getting walled by Corviknight, which are 2 of the most common pokemon in the tier (without giving up on trick/CM or either STAB). It also struggles to fit Roost, as lacking NP means it needs the coverage far more than Hydreigon does, and thanks to its typing and low physdef, Latios is generally pretty lacking in defensive value at all.
It is true that trick is important for avoiding cores to exploit u. But trick isnt that mandatory, I mean surf hits heatran and lando cores for example but if u are really worried about corv and want to run trick, u can use mag, which also benefit teamates like rilla. So for me using latios is easier than hydreigon because of the move syndrom
 
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It is true that trick is important for avoiding cores to exploit u. But trick isnt that mandatory, I mean surf hits heatran and lando cores for example but if u are really worried about corv and want to run trick, u can use mag, which also benefit teamates like rilla. So for me using latios is easier than hydreigon because of the move syndrom
fwiw I think the standard abbreviation for magnezone is zone, not mag, just so yo
This entire part of your post comes off as completely misinformed about Hydreigon and other mons place in the metagame.


Please define "severe" 4MSS. Not running every single possible move you would like to run does not constitute as "severe" 4MSS. If this was the logic we follow, many Pokemon would have "severe" 4MSS. It's moves can be catered to whatever the team in question would need Hydrei to do, which if anything gives it versatility and the ability to adapt to meta trends.


The "mediocre" Speed tier you mention is actually faster than very relevant threats like Nidoking, Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, Rillaboom, and Kyurem (the last of these you cite as competition btw). Calling this Speed tier mediocre is a ridiculous assertion, especially given Hydrei isn't meant to be an offense killer in itself.



Is it stuffed by them as you claim or not? Yes, no Flash Cannon means Clef is annoying but building teams with Hydreigon to handle Clefable well is not particularly difficult, and the ability to run Flash Cannon to hit it still very much exists. If we're talking other Fairies, Tapu Lele is outsped and takes a decent chunk from Dark Pulse and a ton from Flash Cannon, Tapu Fini lacks reliable recovery and tends to get chipped a lot over time, and Tapu Koko can't take Earth Power on the switch lest it either be KO'd or put into a tough position. I'm not saying Fairies aren't decent or even good answers, but your reasoning here is inconsistent and isn't as major as you let on initially.



Saying its one important role was resisting Ghost is totally untrue, but whatever, I'll be getting to that part later on. To answer about the Ghost resisting, yes, it can't answer Dragapult. But does anyone use Hydrei as a hard answer to Dragapult? I'd assume not. At most, you're pivoting Hydrei in on a Hex before switching to something else that wouldn't want to take the Hex initially as they came in (think a status'd Clef partner paired with Hydrei just as an example). As for Aegislash, you can say this about any other Ghost resist, it doesn't devalue them as Ghosts resists to it that much (Blissey, Tyranitar, etc are still seen as at worst decent pivots). If anything, Hydrei is a better pivot because it's actually guaranteed to threaten to OHKO Aegislash post-Shadow Ball pivot.



Let's break this down bit by bit. Hydreigon gets annoyed by Toxic Heatran. However, it's still a good check to it and a much better check than Latios due to Latios having to hit with a really weak Aura Sphere since no one runs Surf. Also, Latios does not beat Slowking in any capacity since the SpDef makes Draco get almost all healed off by Regen. Meanwhile, DPulse is pretty free and does not come with a large drawback in dropping SpA and PP on a low PP move. Also, you're ignoring that Latios has very high odds to get 2HKO'd by Rilla Grassy Glide, which Hydrei doesn't (same goes for LO Leaf Blade Kart and Exca Iron Head if Hydrei holds Leftovers). Also, Hydrei is a better Ground check because of its previously mentioned better phys def while not missing any relevant special calcs. These points also refute your assessment Hydrei's "one important" defensive role was to stop Ghosts. The higher Speed is true, but it only really helps against Kartana, Garchomp (which can be invalidated if it gets off Scale Shot), Victini (which Hydrei can check just fine for the most part either way), and other Hydreigon (Galar Zap isn't very relevant even if I think it's slept on). Covered the part about Fairies already but yeah.



NP actually runs Roost + 2 Atks more often now compared to 3 attacks and the set still works well with Roost, so this point isn't really valid.



This just speaks to the point that Pult and Kyurem should rise to A if we're being honest since I do agree they have a higher overall threat level and are trending a ton at this stage in the metagame, it doesn't mean Hydreigon isn't worse. Also, Latios should really drop since it's not very good right now due to the points I made in this post, my other post in this thread, and other people's points on top of its SPL usage being totally nonexistent, meanwhile Hydreigon has way higher SPL and OST usage.



Dropping Draco and being walled by Mandi isn't as big a deal in a meta where Mandi isn't particularly amazing to begin with isn't that big of a deal. Also, you shouldn't be only running Draco and EP as your atks on NP sets. I combated the Latios arguments pretty sufficiently earlier in this post so not gonna get into that again. Also, Latios's movepool is not really better than Hydrei's when the Base Power of all moves is accounted for and the fact Hydrei has objectively better coverage, not to mention it can hit more mons in fewer moves. I do think Lele and Hydrei are both good A- mons though. Maybe Kart could afford to be A but this post isn't for me arguing anything about that since it divulges from the main purpose.


Next time, I suggest doing more metagame research before nomming a Pokemon to drop and not putting statements like this about those making the VR. Also, try and use more metagame context to explain why say Latios's stat distribution is better for the meta or why Lele is a better mon overall to justify your position since when you don't, it's really hard to take your arguments seriously, especially with all that preceded that particular part.
While a bit harsh, the point is effectively made. I'd also like to add Urshifu-Rapid-Strike as a key pokemon that it outspeeds, which has caused me much pain....
 
This entire part of your post comes off as completely misinformed about Hydreigon and other mons place in the metagame.


Please define "severe" 4MSS. Not running every single possible move you would like to run does not constitute as "severe" 4MSS. If this was the logic we follow, many Pokemon would have "severe" 4MSS. It's moves can be catered to whatever the team in question would need Hydrei to do, which if anything gives it versatility and the ability to adapt to meta trends. It suffers from 4MSS less than say Lati or Melmetal, since Hydrei evein if not the exact 4 moves you want for a specific mu will still always do something, unlike the previously mentioned two.


The "mediocre" Speed tier you mention is actually faster than very relevant threats like Nidoking, Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, Rillaboom, and Kyurem (the last of these you cite as competition btw). Calling this Speed tier mediocre is a ridiculous assertion, especially given Hydrei isn't meant to be an offense killer in itself.



Is it stuffed by them as you claim or not? Yes, no Flash Cannon means Clef is annoying but building teams with Hydreigon to handle Clefable well is not particularly difficult, and the ability to run Flash Cannon to hit it still very much exists. If we're talking other Fairies, Tapu Lele is outsped and takes a decent chunk from Dark Pulse and a ton from Flash Cannon, Tapu Fini lacks reliable recovery and tends to get chipped a lot over time, and Tapu Koko can't take Earth Power on the switch lest it either be KO'd or put into a tough position. I'm not saying Fairies aren't decent or even good answers, but your reasoning here is inconsistent and isn't as major as you let on initially.



Saying its one important role was resisting Ghost is totally untrue, but whatever, I'll be getting to that part later on. To answer about the Ghost resisting, yes, it can't answer Dragapult. But does anyone use Hydrei as a hard answer to Dragapult? I'd assume not. At most, you're pivoting Hydrei in on a Hex before switching to something else that wouldn't want to take the Hex initially as they came in (think a status'd Clef partner paired with Hydrei just as an example). As for Aegislash, you can say this about any other Ghost resist, it doesn't devalue them as Ghosts resists to it that much (Blissey, Tyranitar, etc are still seen as at worst decent pivots). If anything, Hydrei is a better pivot because it's actually guaranteed to threaten to OHKO Aegislash post-Shadow Ball pivot.



Let's break this down bit by bit. Hydreigon gets annoyed by Toxic Heatran. However, it's still a good check to it and a much better check than Latios due to Latios having to hit with a really weak Aura Sphere since no one runs Surf. Also, Latios does not beat Slowking in any capacity since the SpDef makes Draco get almost all healed off by Regen. Meanwhile, DPulse is pretty free and does not come with a large drawback in dropping SpA and PP on a low PP move. Also, you're ignoring that Latios has very high odds to get 2HKO'd by Rilla Grassy Glide, which Hydrei doesn't (same goes for LO Leaf Blade Kart and Exca Iron Head if Hydrei holds Leftovers). Also, Hydrei is a better Ground check because of its previously mentioned better phys def while not missing any relevant special calcs. These points also refute your assessment Hydrei's "one important" defensive role was to stop Ghosts. The higher Speed is true, but it only really helps against Kartana, Garchomp (which can be invalidated if it gets off Scale Shot), Victini (which Hydrei can check just fine for the most part either way), and other Hydreigon (Galar Zap isn't very relevant even if I think it's slept on). Covered the part about Fairies already but yeah.



NP actually runs Roost + 2 Atks more often now compared to 3 attacks and the set still works well with Roost, so this point isn't really valid.



This just speaks to the point that Pult and Kyurem should rise to A if we're being honest since I do agree they have a higher overall threat level and are trending a ton at this stage in the metagame, it doesn't mean Hydreigon isn't worse. Also, Latios should really drop since it's not very good right now due to the points I made in this post, my other post in this thread, and other people's points on top of its SPL usage being totally nonexistent, meanwhile Hydreigon has way higher SPL and OST usage.



Dropping Draco and being walled by Mandi isn't as big a deal in a meta where Mandi isn't particularly amazing to begin with isn't that big of a deal. Also, you shouldn't be only running Draco and EP as your atks on NP sets. I combated the Latios arguments pretty sufficiently earlier in this post so not gonna get into that again. Also, Latios's movepool is not really better than Hydrei's when the Base Power of all moves is accounted for and the fact Hydrei has objectively better coverage, not to mention it can hit more mons in fewer moves. I do think Lele and Hydrei are both good A- mons though. Maybe Kart could afford to be A but this post isn't for me arguing anything about that since it divulges from the main purpose.


Next time, I suggest doing more metagame research before nomming a Pokemon to drop and not putting statements like this about those making the VR. Also, try and use more metagame context to explain why say Latios's stat distribution is better for the meta or why Lele is a better mon overall to justify your position since when you don't, it's really hard to take your arguments seriously, especially with all that preceded that particular part.

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Well, I guess you are right in all those points. Like the post succeeding mine said it is an aggressive balance breaker and not an offense killer so I was making wrong comparisons there.
For the record, Hydra is in A tier with Pult and Kyurem not A-. Pult should rise to A+ as I already made an argument and you also agreed to the point of A-. A rank is too much for it as it puts it in top 10 mons league which it isn't a part of despite all the great points you make. Maybe I jumped the gun too much with it dropping to B+.
I will remove that Hydrei section because it seems I haven't completely understood it's role now and it interferes with the integrity of the other noms.
Lastly, that is a bit harsh, saying I made my noms without research. You can very clearly see the research I did especially in the Kommo O section. While I think even the Koko and Dragapult sections are pretty accurate if I do say so myself.
 
Blaziken is a dangerous setup sweeper if given a sash and the right teammates. So I would not agree with it being in b-. I can agree on b/a-.
>Right teammates
Brother, that's the reason why it's in B in the first place. Mons in A provide support for their team and needs very little support to be good. From your post alone, A- is out of reach for Blaziken because it needs the right support to even function.
Edit: Blaziken is also way too matchup fishy to be A
 
Blaziken is a dangerous setup sweeper if given a sash and the right teammates. So I would not agree with it being in b-. I can agree on b/a-.
Blaziken is way too frail to make it work most of the time, and it has other problems other than its frailty. For example, it suffers pretty badly from 4MSS, as you want SD/Protect/STABs/SE/Knock/Thunder Punch all at once, and depending on what you choose, its inevitably walled by either Pex or Lando, alongside a bad defensive typing. If anything, I would advocate for a drop to C+.

Edit: got sniped lol

So that this isn’t barren, I agree with Rilla and Pult rising, these two are some of the best offensive mons in the meta rn and the utility they bring to the table are very helpful to any team, alongside being very splashable. Also agree with Torn-T to S, very, very scary to face and HDB and NP are all potent sets.
 

Zneon

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I completely disagree that Blaziken should rise, if anything its more worthy of a drop to C+ in my eyes.

Blaziken sounds great on paper but it is a very inconsistent Pokemon. It has very large 4mss and its extremely frail, it can easily be stuffed out by a lot of Pokemon and trying to salvage that outside of screens is very hard I would have to say. These combined make sure that Blaziken almost never gets any setup opportunities because how can it when shit like Garchomp, Landorus-T, Slowbro, and Dragonite can either just wear it down to the point where it cannot find use for the rest of the game or just simply kill it. It's a very matchup reliant Pokemon, relies on Life Orb for consistent damage, and even then teams are probably going to have at least 1 check that just invalidates Blaziken because its 4mss is very bad, meaning that it will kill itself faster than it gets a kill. It needs team support yes, but needing too much team support to actually function in your role is a testament of a bad Pokemon.

It's just extremely underwhelming in my opinion and shouldn't be higher than stuff like Bisharp and Zapdos-Galar. In conclusion it really fucking sucks and I personally think it should drop to C+.

===

Anyway I might as well make another nomination.


Slowbro to A-

I'm just gonna come out in say it, yeah Slowbro really isn't all that good, well its still good but I really feel that it's clearly worse than Slowking at the moment and out of place compared to the other stuff in A right now. The metagame is just very unkind to it right now, there's not a lot that it can actually check. There's less of a need to put a physical wall on a team now compared to a special one with stuff like Tapu Lele, Tornadus-T, Heatran and Nidoking being so threatening Slowbro is being completely shafted by Slowking in this regard. Not to mention its a physical wall that is easily overwhelmed by stuff like Weavile and Scizor, two Pokemon that have become very prominent recently, not to mention stuff like Rillaboom, Kartana, Zeraora and such also abuse Slowbro. Again, Slowbro isn't bad but the recent trends that have occured have been very unkind to its performance, you can see in the most recent weeks of SPL where it hasn't seen that much use, especially compared to Slowking.

As such it's worthy of a drop.

Other nominations I agree with:

-> S
-> B+
-> B+

-> B-
 
Contrary to some of the noms here not sure really about Torn-T in S because Zeraora/Weavile/Tapu Koko usage hurts Torn-T even if it's a great mon. Don't think its that much better than Chomp or Dragapult with the latter being in A right now and imo a worse teambuilding constraint than Torn is.

Dont have a strong opinion on a whole lot havent really looked at this thread much outside of mental notes of what's good what isn't. Volcarona, Urshifu-R should be in higher positions for sure though.
 
1616297949684.png


B -> C or lower

Regieleki has seen much better days. While it does have some good qualities, such as being the fastest thing in the game and having a nice ability, outside of Electric attacks and Explosion Regieleki poses a very minimal offensive presence, which has almost completely killed it's offensive sets. It's inability to deal nothing more than chip damage to basically any relevant immunity like Garchomp and Swampert without blowing itself up (which doesn't work on Swampert) leaves it over reliant on team support to remove these electric immunities. This makes it an inferior choice in an offensive role compared to basically every viable Electric type in OU which have actual good coverage moves that require less support to deal with Ground Types or Ability-Based Electric Immunities, whereas Regieleki is basically at a 5v6 until the immune Pokemon are removed, and hoping for such is never consistent.

The aforementioned inferiority in an offensive role delegates it to the role of a Screen Setter on Hyper Offense teams, but even then it's not a huge niche. Regieleki does have Explosion and Rapid Spin as perks, but faces serious competition from Tapu Koko and Grimmsnarl. Tapu Koko is still very fast, has U-turn to maintain momentum without killing itself, better bulk and typing, Taunt to prevent Defog, hazard stacking, etc. and Electric Surge for Hawlucha shenanigans. Grimmsnarl may not have momentum, but it does undermine Regieleki's high speed with priority screens and Taunt, as well as a useful defensive typing letting it temporarily stop Dragapult. Speaking of Dragapult....

Dragapult's large rise in usage is a blow to screens, and especially Regieleki. The standard set runs Rapid Spin and Explosion as it's attacking moves, and that unfortunately leaves it completely hard countered by any Dragapult set, giving it a free turn to do whatever it wants every time it comes in. Regieleki's team can't even take full advantage of the screen it sets up thanks to Dragapult's Infiltrator ability completely ignoring them. While Regieleki could adapt and run Volt Switch, forgoing Rapid Spin or Explosion removes a differentiating factor from Tapu Koko, who can also set screens and pivot on anything with U-turn.

Regieleki being B rank viable is inaccurate of it's current place in the metagame. While it is still a decent screens setter, it's usefulness outside of that role, which is hampered by the sharp rise of Infiltrator Dragapult and competition with Tapu Koko and Grimmsnarl for that role, is limited and done better by other electric types. Regieleki requires a lot of support to function that other Electric types do not need to rely on, and it is nowhere near consistent due to it's poor bulk and no relevant offensive coverage outside of Explosion which kills itself. It's a very fringe Pokemon that only fulfills one role on very specific teams, and is nowhere near as consistent and easier to fit on a team as things in B rank such as Swampert, Reuniclus, Victini, Weavile (which warrants a rise but others have already elaborated on that), and Aegislash. It deserves to be dropped all the way to C rank or lower for the aforementioned reasons.

EDIT: I actually believe that Regieleki is unviable in OU in any role it tries to do, and should not be ranked as a result, but there may be some who can defend the niche screens Regieleki has, hence why I nominated for C rank or lower.
 
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BT89

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Blaziken is a dangerous setup sweeper if given a sash and the right teammates. So I would not agree with it being in b-. I can agree on b/a-.
I have always heavily doubted Blaziken ever since it dropped. It is a MU fish at most, which it can do efficiently at times with support, but that is the key phrase here, with support. Without support, Blaziken mostly just drops.

But that isn't all. Blaziken has one of the most awkward speed tiers in the entire tier, with it being mediocre without any boosts, which leaves it vulnerable to being killed or being massively chipped on the switch by multiple mons:

252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 428-506 (142.1 - 168.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 396-468 (131.5 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Blaziken also has great 4MSS, with it having to choose between STABS, SD, Protect, Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, and so on, which leaves you walled by either Toxapex and Landorus-Therian. Blaziken also has problems getting kills, since there will always be a check on any viable team, as well as you possibly killing yourself before you kill someone else. Its typing is also bad defensively if you needed a cherry on top.

:ss/blaziken:

B- ---> C+/C
 
Well, I guess you are right in all those points. Like the post succeeding mine said it is an aggressive balance breaker and not an offense killer so I was making wrong comparisons there.
For the record, Hydra is in A tier with Pult and Kyurem not A-. Pult should rise to A+ as I already made an argument and you also agreed to the point of A-. A rank is too much for it as it puts it in top 10 mons league which it isn't a part of despite all the great points you make. Maybe I jumped the gun too much with it dropping to B+.
I will remove that Hydrei section because it seems I haven't completely understood it's role now and it interferes with the integrity of the other noms.
Lastly, that is a bit harsh, saying I made my noms without research. You can very clearly see the research I did especially in the Kommo O section. While I think even the Koko and Dragapult sections are pretty accurate if I do say so myself.
One thing i didn't really see mentioned in your discussion of hydra was how great it is in tournaments.
(overall usage stats for SPL so far)
| 5 | Hydreigon | 66 | 24.44% | 54.55% |
I haven't watched SPL as much lately so I am not the best person to speak on this, but the overwhelming prevalence of balance teams and Slowking (14th overall usage but increased significantly since Spec ban) both make Hydra significantly better than it is in OU. You could say Hydra's overall usage is inflated by Spec, but that was only two/three weeks out of nine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Blissey is also not used as much due to its passivity, and thats the only true counter to hydra in the tier.

Tournament play isn't the only thing that should be considered when ranking mons, but it definitely should be taken into account and I personally see Hydra as deserving to remain in A rank, though based solely on ladder I would rank it right next to Nidoking in A- rank.
 

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View attachment 324661

B -> C or lower

Regieleki has seen much better days. While it does have some good qualities, such as being the fastest thing in the game and having a nice ability, outside of Electric attacks and Explosion Regieleki poses a very minimal offensive presence, which has almost completely killed it's offensive sets. It's inability to deal nothing more than chip damage to basically any relevant immunity like Garchomp and Swampert without blowing itself up (which doesn't work on Swampert) leaves it over reliant on team support to remove these electric immunities. This makes it an inferior choice in an offensive role compared to basically every viable Electric type in OU which have actual good coverage moves that require less support to deal with Ground Types or Ability-Based Electric Immunities, whereas Regieleki is basically at a 5v6 until the immune Pokemon are removed, and hoping for such is never consistent.

The aforementioned inferiority in an offensive role delegates it to the role of a Screen Setter on Hyper Offense teams, but even then it's not a huge niche. Regieleki does have Explosion and Rapid Spin as perks, but faces serious competition from Tapu Koko and Grimmsnarl. Tapu Koko is still very fast, has U-turn to maintain momentum without killing itself, better bulk and typing, Taunt to prevent Defog, hazard stacking, etc. and Electric Surge for Hawlucha shenanigans. Grimmsnarl may not have momentum, but it does undermine Regieleki's high speed with priority screens and Taunt, as well as a useful defensive typing letting it temporarily stop Dragapult. Speaking of Dragapult....

Dragapult's large rise in usage is a blow to screens, and especially Regieleki. The standard set runs Rapid Spin and Explosion as it's attacking moves, and that unfortunately leaves it completely hard countered by any Dragapult set, giving it a free turn to do whatever it wants every time it comes in. Regieleki's team can't even take full advantage of the screen it sets up thanks to Dragapult's Infiltrator ability completely ignoring them. While Regieleki could adapt and run Volt Switch, forgoing Rapid Spin or Explosion removes a differentiating factor from Tapu Koko, who can also set screens and pivot on anything with U-turn.

Regieleki being B rank viable is inaccurate of it's current place in the metagame. While it is still a decent screens setter, it's usefulness outside of that role, which is hampered by the sharp rise of Infiltrator Dragapult and competition with Tapu Koko and Grimmsnarl for that role, is limited and done better by other electric types. Regieleki requires a lot of support to function that other Electric types do not need to rely on, and it is nowhere near consistent due to it's poor bulk and no relevant offensive coverage outside of Explosion which kills itself. It's a very fringe Pokemon that only fulfills one role on very specific teams, and is nowhere near as consistent and easier to fit on a team as things in B rank such as Swampert, Reuniclus, Victini, Weavile (which warrants a rise but others have already elaborated on that), and Aegislash. It deserves to be dropped all the way to C rank or lower for the aforementioned reasons.

EDIT: I actually believe that Regieleki is unviable in OU in any role it tries to do, and should not be ranked as a result, but there may be some who can defend the niche screens Regieleki has, hence why I nominated for C rank or lower.
Agreed. What's more, every team has a Ground-type or Zeraora for non-Regieleki reasons, and there's an amazing selection of them to choose from, as I outlined here. I wouldn't take it all the way to UR from B. I'd suggest C+ as that's with Alolan Ninetales, another screens setter that competes with Tapu Koko but has a couple of options it doesn't, similar to Regieleki. Grimmsnarl is ranked lower but is less effective than Ninetales and Regieleki due to its lack of a pivoting move.

Regieleki is turning into OU's Jolteon, as if you look at the movesets on the usage statistics you'll see most people are running the even less viable Specs and Boots sets, with Light Clay used only 25% of the time in February at 1695! So usage can't be justified either in this case.
 
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Completely rebuke any attempt to drop regieleki.
  • specs clicks buttons. So easy to use on spike stacking because opponent MUST send in a ground
  • Best screens setter
  • Screech+explosion or screech+Voltswitch into, say, zapdos-g beats all grounds
  • Assurance on physical sets is easy bop on dragapult and makes wildcharge kill all neutral hits. (P.s. use physical life orb)

rapid spin, extreme speed, and any other non-electric attacking moves are dung.
 

BT89

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is a Pre-Contributor
Completely rebuke any attempt to drop regieleki.
  • specs clicks buttons. So easy to use on spike stacking because opponent MUST send in a ground
  • Best screens setter
  • Screech+explosion or screech+Voltswitch into, say, zapdos-g beats all grounds
  • Assurance on physical sets is easy bop on dragapult and makes wildcharge kill all neutral hits. (P.s. use physical life orb)

rapid spin, extreme speed, and any other non-electric attacking moves are dung.
Specs Eleki does click buttons until it sees a Ground-type, and then it's more or less completely screwed. That's actually its biggest flaw. Since every team will be running a Ground-type, Regieleki needs much team support to make any progress in a match. Eleki HAS to explode on any Ground (:landorus-therian: :garchomp: :hippowdon: etc.) or even stuff like :tyranitar: :zeraora: and even :thundurus-therian: if its team wants to make progress.

252+ Atk Regieleki Explosion vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 160-189 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Regieleki Explosion vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 220-259 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Regieleki Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 259-305 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Regieleki Explosion vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Garchomp: 213-251 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Regieleki Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 115-135 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 95.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

it OHKO's everything else, so that's neat

Eleki is not the best Screens setter. :tapu-koko: and even :grimmsnarl: are better setters because they can contribute something within a match without all of the huge cons Regieleki has, but Screens are mediocre anyways in a meta with Defoggers everywhere and Dragapult being a huge threat.

Screech is a horrible set, as Regieleki doesn't really need its Explosions to be mighty strong. It just wants to escape being walled by doing a big chunk to the wall, and Eleki does not have enough bulk to set up the Screeches, as well as no way to secure you are even GETTING the Screeches (unless you are running the bad Thunder Cage set).

Specs Eleki is so much better than Physical LO. Specs Eleki has "coverage" in Ancient Power, and still has the ability to explode. It can also be a neat spinner, which is more than what Physical LO can do. For a Pokemon with such pathetic bulk and a huge flaw in its moveset to not hit an extremely relevant type, I don't think it needs to be chipping itself down repetitively.

Rapid Spin is not dung, its actually commonly ran on Regieleki. A fast spinner is always pretty neat, but you'd rather want Defog most of the time still, since there aren't any good spinners outside of :excadrill:. People also run Swift because they want Regieleki to hit Grounds at all, which really shows how utterly pathetic its movepool is.

Edit: Also, guess which two mons are also offensive support Electric types that have actual coverage (one is faster than Pult) and do everything Eleki does but better? :zeraora: and :tapu-koko:. Putting it lightly, Regieleki faces too severe of a competition to be really considered for a serious team.

I'm sorry Regieleki, you are a cool dude, but I am nomming you to C/C-.
 
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Completely rebuke any attempt to drop regieleki.
  • specs clicks buttons. So easy to use on spike stacking because opponent MUST send in a ground
  • Best screens setter
  • Screech+explosion or screech+Voltswitch into, say, zapdos-g beats all grounds
  • Assurance on physical sets is easy bop on dragapult and makes wildcharge kill all neutral hits. (P.s. use physical life orb)

rapid spin, extreme speed, and any other non-electric attacking moves are dung.
Yeah Eleki should definitely drop to C and these arguments are not good.
  • Specs clicks buttons and loses to grounds which means that you have to double out of it and only use it when the Ground is eliminated, and Zeraora does this much better than Eleki, being able to Knock Off Landorus T's Leftovers and having Close Combat for weakened Garchomp, especially in Spikes-stacking teams
  • Tapu Koko is a better screens setter due to terrain it provides making it great support for teammates like Hawlucha, and having Taunt + an unblockable pivoting move in U-Turn.
  • If an Eleki Screeches your ground you're switching out of your ground, Screech serves no purpose.
  • Assurance on physical sets is just running physical Eleki which uh just use Zeraora, and Life Orb ruins its longevity, Boots being a way better item for it.
TL;DR: Regieleki sucks, just use Zeraora.

Meanwhile I'd like to do my own nomination since I haven't seen this mon talked about much

:ss/bisharp:
I think that Bisharp has been overlooked by the recent VR posts, despite it having a pretty decent success in SPL, with 14 uses and a 64% winrate, and although the loss of Pursuit this generation hurts banded sets, this is not a big problem since it still can run Assurance in hazards + Knock Off heavy teams, and although it suffers from being slow and rising actors like Zapdos and Landorus-T can outspeed it by using little investment, Sucker Punch works as something that alleviates this problem.

Choice Banded sets can work very well in offensive teams as a terryfing breaker that can effectively lure foes expecting a Swords Dance just to eat a Knock Off/Assurance/Iron Head, and Swords Dance sets work really decently in hyper offensive teams and as an alternate breaker for Bulky Offense to aid its teammates, and despite its fraility it has defensive utility that allows it to switch into and threaten out boots Dragapult's moves and Specs Dragapult's Shadow Ball and absorb Future Sight.

Given this and how it's shown in its effectiveness I think it amerits a rise to at least B, if not B+ tier.
 
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