Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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Gomi

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I dont think its fair to immediately start pushing up mons that kyurem annoyed and pushing down bliss and sciz substantially like a day in to post kyu. Theres literally no time to see how these things are actually doing, Even Scizors unfair bc realistically being a steel with recovery that isnt absolute zone food is a unique thing kyu or no kyu
 
I dont think its fair to immediately start pushing up mons that kyurem annoyed and pushing down bliss and sciz substantially like a day in to post kyu. Theres literally no time to see how these things are actually doing, Even Scizors unfair bc realistically being a steel with recovery that isnt absolute zone food is a unique thing kyu or no kyu
Sure but scizor has been strained the entire time its been used in OU, now with kyurem gone it becomes much more difficult to justify its decent at-best bulk, passivity, and tendency to be overwhelmed throughout a game.
 

Gomi

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Sure but scizor has been strained the entire time its been used in OU, now with kyurem gone it becomes much more difficult to justify its decent at-best bulk, passivity, and tendency to be overwhelmed throughout a game.
Scizors a bit more of an exception bc its kind of carved itself as the thing fat runs over other steels so kyurem doesnt go crazy since like pre olt but the rest are pretty unfair, like Torn? Really? Because it can defog easier...?
I can see legitemate reasons for these drops and raises but the post just kind of says "because kyurem is gone" mostly so its pretty unsubstantiated
 
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Well, looks like we have a new UUBL mon. And having thought ahead on this possibility, here is my initial call:
:Mienshao: -> UR
I really tried to find something for Mienshao, but this cat-stoat thing is just completely outclassed in OU. As a Regen pivot its completely outclassed by Tornadus-T, which packs a better speed tier, not terrible bulk, and utility with Defog. As a Fighting type, it could maybe have a niche against Gapdos with better speed tier and longevity with Regen, except it's largely outclassed by Terrakion, which is slightly faster and stronger with strong secondary STAB. What really lets Mienshao down, however, is its difficulty in breaking defensive mons, the lack of EQ and elemental punches (rare for bipedal Fighting types) being very noticeable against targets like Toxapex and defensive Lando, mons other Fighting types have much better match-ups vs. Coverage could've given it a niche, but Terrk gets Poison Jab and Aerial Ace (Buzzwole) too, and Blaze Kick is not going to give you a worthwhile niche. Its bulk does it no favors, as it's basically guaranteed to be 2HKOed by anything, even resisted.

The one potential thing I found is that it can potentially use Grass Knot on LO to get around Slowbro since its SpA is not garbage. Bro is the only thing Knot particularly helps with though, as SpD Hippo and Lando get hit harder by Shao's usual moves. C- at best.
 
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Well, looks like we have a new UUBL mon, so we need a rank for it. And having thought ahead on this possibility, here is my initial call:
:Mienshao: -> D/C-
I really tried to find something for Mienshao, but this cat-stoat thing is just completely outclassed in OU. As a Regen pivot its completely outclassed by Tornadus-T, which packs a better speed tier, not terrible bulk, and utility with Defog. As a Fighting type, it could maybe have a niche against Gapdos with better speed tier and longevity with Regen, except it's largely outclassed by Terrakion, which is slightly faster and stronger with strong secondary STAB. What really lets Mienshao down, however, is its difficulty in breaking defensive mons, the lack of EQ and elemental punches (rare for bipedal Fighting types) being very noticeable against targets like Toxapex and defensive Lando, mons other Fighting types have much better match-ups vs. Coverage could've given it a niche, but Poison Jab and Blaze Kick don't really cut it. Its bulk does it no favors, as it's basically guaranteed to be 2HKOed by anything, even resisted.

The one potential thing I found is that it can potentially use Grass Knot on LO to get around Slowbro since its SpA is not garbage. Bro is the only thing Knot particularly helps with though, as SpD Hippo and Lando get hit harder by Shao's usual moves. C- at best.
We dont do this. Ubers does (unless that changed) but we dont rank things just cause they’re uubl even if Mienshao better than some lower tier mons.
 

TailGlowVM

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We dont do this. Ubers does (unless that changed) but we dont rank things just cause they’re uubl even if Mienshao better than some lower tier mons.
Yes, Ubers has to put Kyurem in D-tier because it's considered part of the tier as soon as it's banned, whereas Mienshao's ban places it in UUBL not OU. The same policy is followed by all the other usage based tiers as far as I can tell.
 
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Well, looks like we have a new UUBL mon. And having thought ahead on this possibility, here is my initial call:
:Mienshao: -> UR
I really tried to find something for Mienshao, but this cat-stoat thing is just completely outclassed in OU. As a Regen pivot its completely outclassed by Tornadus-T, which packs a better speed tier, not terrible bulk, and utility with Defog. As a Fighting type, it could maybe have a niche against Gapdos with better speed tier and longevity with Regen, except it's largely outclassed by Terrakion, which is slightly faster and stronger with strong secondary STAB. What really lets Mienshao down, however, is its difficulty in breaking defensive mons, the lack of EQ and elemental punches (rare for bipedal Fighting types) being very noticeable against targets like Toxapex and defensive Lando, mons other Fighting types have much better match-ups vs. Coverage could've given it a niche, but Terrk gets Poison Jab and Aerial Ace (Buzzwole) too, and Blaze Kick is not going to give you a worthwhile niche. Its bulk does it no favors, as it's basically guaranteed to be 2HKOed by anything, even resisted.

The one potential thing I found is that it can potentially use Grass Knot on LO to get around Slowbro since its SpA is not garbage. Bro is the only thing Knot particularly helps with though, as SpD Hippo and Lando get hit harder by Shao's usual moves. C- at best.
Besides the obvious element of such a post not being necessary I have to say you have overlooked several elements of Mienshao as a pokemon. First of all, while it is true that as an offensive fighting type it is not the best option you can use right now I also believe it had (has) legitimate potential as a pivot since the qualities it brings to the table are unique and valuable. The set which is the most viable to me is one players of USUM UU and ORAS UU should be familiar with:

mienshao.gif

Mienshao @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 96 HP / 196 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Poison Jab / Drain Punch / Stone Edge

This set had a claim for being the best offensive check to special variants of Kyurem in the entire game outside of Ubers as it is the only Regenerator pokemon to be faster than Kyurem that is not weak to anything Kyurem could ever throw at it, something Tornadus-T could never come close to replicate. A major advantage it had over another check to Kyurem in Scizor is that it didn't fear the combination of Kyurem + Magnezone at all and it could recover health while grabbing momentum for you thanks to U-turn. Being able to run a pivoting move while carrying an Assault Vest was another advantage over another check to Kyurem in Assault Vest Slowking-Galar.

Now while Kyurem is banned to Ubers this doesn't mean the set is completely obsolete as it can still check other special threats while maintaining a reasonable offensive presence itself. If the set was designed to be able to switch into Choice Specs Hydreigon and Latias' +1 Draco Meteor in USUM it can certainly be used to switch into Specs Dragapult. While not necessarily hard countering it, AV Mienshao can certainly stomach a Shadow Ball or take a Draco Meteor from full health and help your team pivot around a notoriously difficult to handle threat and it, of course, still checks Hydreigon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 96 HP / 196 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 127-150 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 96 HP / 196 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 204-241 (69.1 - 81.6%)

As you can see it still takes quite a bit of damage but it isn't about being able to wall it infinitely but simply being able to pivot around it without risking your other teammates. With the heavy special defense investments it is also able to switch into a Heatran Magma Storm and threaten it out:

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 96 HP / 196 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 127-150 (43 - 50.8%)
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 96 HP / 196 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 103-123 (34.9 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

That last part is most important, anyone can throw a wall like Blissey or Toxapex at Heatran but those two aren't the most threatening thing in the world to Heatran. Being a pivot that can switch into Heatran somewhat comfortably and repeatedly while threatening it is a rare and valuable attribute when dealing with something as eternally obnoxious as Heatran. While on the topic of its naturally decent offensive presence between its naturally high attack stat, a powerful stab in Close Combat and access to Knock Off it is worth noting that at base 105 it is going to be outspeeding a large portion of the OU metagame with only 9 pokemon in OU faster than it and even less that can actually switch into it safely. Being an offensive pokemon faster than Garchomp will always be a great quality to have.

As for the set itself the first three moves are absolutely mandatory for it to function, the last move is team dependant. Poison Jab is for potentially hitting a Tapu Koko switch-in, picking off Lele from 60 as opposed to 40% while being able to pretend you can hurt Tapu Fini, Drain Punch could be used to check subbing Kyurems better since you could break its subs without dropping your special defense and not being at the mercy of Pressure draining the PP of Close Combat alarmingly quickly and Stone Edge is for being able to check Volcarona really nicely as it can survive even a +1 Psychic after rocks and ohko back as well as being able to finish off a weakened Zapdos from higher health.

Is the set some world beater? no, it isn't; but it can provide its team with some valuable offensive and defensive utility that is genuinely difficult to find elsewhere as it is able to handle a surprising amount of special attackers 1 on 1, including:

- :blacephalon: any move from scarf and any specs move that isn't Overheat (and even then it's still a roll);
- :dragapult: any non wisp-hex or physical set, a knocked specs set will never break through;
- :hydreigon:;
- :heatran: just be careful around lava plume variants, you'll need something for those;
- :magnezone:beware of the occasional thunder wave;
- :ninetales-alola:, non-Moonblast sets, especially if you have Poison Jab
- :slowking-galar: you can knock it off safely;
- :volcarona: with Stone Edge;
- :gengar: always survives even a +2 non life orb shadow ball after rocks and has a good chance to survive a +2 sludge wave.

As I tried to demonstrate nothing truly does what Assault Vest Mienshao can do all in one slot, Toxapex or Slowking-Galar might be able to handle some of them but certainly not every pokemon listed above. It will not be your response to every special attacker in the tier nor is it meant to wall the ones it handles forever but it is an interesting and unique way to put a stop to some of the most dangerous special threats in the tier. As a Regenerator pivot it distinguishes itself from slow walls like Toxapex and Slowking by actually being decently fast and offensively capable letting it pick off weakened non-scarf Tapu Lele and half health Victini and it differs from Tornadus-T by being resistant to stealth rock as opposed to being weak to them meaning it is not as dependent on hazard removal as Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian in ORAS. With all that in mind claiming that Mienshao is outclassed as a fighting type by every other fighting type in OU is exceptionally harsh and I hope I have been able to make a convincing case for Mienshao not being completely outclassed in an OU metagame that isn't BW. Its traits are unique and worth at least considering in the builder, with this set I would even go as far as saying it has a clearly more distinguishable and useful niche than pokemon that are actually ranked like Latias and Terrakion.

Edit from January 19th: The original spread I posted hit 334 speed to outrun Garchomp, however I eventually concluded that it was better to drop the speed to 330 to still outrun base 100s (Victini, most importantly) to make it perform as well as it possibly could. While outspeeding Garchomp can be nice, it is mostly a bonus for what it is supposed to do. The given spread lets it always survive an unboosted Hurricane from Tornadus-Therian and that, to me, is more important than outrunning Garchomp.

252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 96 HP / 196 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 248-294 (84 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Banning these evasion abilities is actually ridiculous, it is a core element of the main game, and is one of the pivotal elements of sand / hail teams. This is such a huge unnecessary nerf to weather teams, diversity and synergies. May as well drop Hippowdon, T-tar, Ninetales down a rank now too.

When players select moves to use, there is often a trade-off between PP / Accuracy / Power. Players need to be able to compensate appropriately when facing teams with evasion, these teams were never that strong anyway. A similar argument could be made with Flinch.
 
Banning these evasion abilities is actually ridiculous, it is a core element of the main game, and is one of the pivotal elements of sand / hail teams. This is such a huge unnecessary nerf to weather teams, diversity and synergies. May as well drop Hippowdon, T-tar, Ninetales down a rank now too.

I disagree with the Ban too, but those abilities are not a “pivotal element of Sand and Hail teams at all. In fact, I am yet to see a team that succesfully uses Snow Cloak at all and even when I was experiencing with Glaceon, I always used Ice Body due to being way more reliable.

Sand Stream and Snow Warning are the only mandatory things on these weathers, just like Drizzle and Drought are for the other weathers. Starting from there, you can use endless strategies that abuse the weathers, evasion abilities were one of them, but not the strongest at all, and not needed for the weathers to be good.

I still don,t like the Ban, just like I don,t like the Kings Rock, Kyurem, Baton Pass or the proposed Sleep one, but they are not important enough to waste time defending. Just move on, and invent a new cheesy strategy, there are many of them left and we cheesers will always find a way to infuriate cheese haters.
 
I disagree with the Ban too, but those abilities are not a “pivotal element of Sand and Hail teams at all. In fact, I am yet to see a team that succesfully uses Snow Cloak at all and even when I was experiencing with Glaceon, I always used Ice Body due to being way more reliable.

Sand Stream and Snow Warning are the only mandatory things on these weathers, just like Drizzle and Drought are for the other weathers. Starting from there, you can use endless strategies that abuse the weathers, evasion abilities were one of them, but not the strongest at all, and not needed for the weathers to be good.

I still don,t like the Ban, just like I don,t like the Kings Rock, Kyurem, Baton Pass or the proposed Sleep one, but they are not important enough to waste time defending. Just move on, and invent a new cheesy strategy, there are many of them left and we cheesers will always find a way to infuriate cheese haters.
Huh my post was removed. Anyways, I did propose dropping Hippowdon, T-tar and Ninetales. Maybe 'pivotal' was a bit exaggerated, but why reduce diversity unnecessarily. These weren't even threats to begin with.

Snow Cloak and Sand Veil have been around for many generations across Smogon.
 
Hey Everyone. I would like to nominate Entei to C- rank. I feel it has a niche on Sun with banded sets and spreading sacred fire burns, stomping tantrum for Heatran and 2hkoing Tyranitar on the switch. Ttar doesnt want to take a sacred fire burn in the first place. Yes fat waters like Slowbro, Tapu Fini and Toxapex are annoying for Entei but they can be taken care of by Entei's teammates. Lando is also forced to Eq bc inner focus ignores intimidate and fears sacred fire on the switch. Stone edge destroys volcarona and 2hkoes Dragonite on the switch. Entei takes any hit from volc at +1 due to its above average bulk and ohkoes it with edge. Lastly, priority in espeed is nice to pick up weakened foes or in late game situations. Here are some replays ive got.
1641462391916.png

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1474493323-valztr4vj9touv60sv7kdf0tw3b5rqnpw. Tanks a +1 knock from Kart and kills it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1474601154-fuxz6ryaxercgd7ykf1nlfvlvj0ke2epw - Snags a burn on Lando and forces Lando to eq and kills heatran with a predicted stomping tantrum
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1474641560-qv3dt1cnb7tfg0505vdz7fmqfzty5hnpw - Bullies Volcarona completely. Forces volc out for Garchomp still doing more than half with banded sacred fire. Then Later kills volc.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1474665128-0n0pixcyflzemdgbbv9iz7xhb7rq8gxpw. Entei put in a lot of work demolishing Torn-t and Blissey vs stall.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1472217264-mbr78u4vwq1pzp6o7vnou7ytyabb3prpw - Entei even took less than half from a burned Lando eq. I forgot to put inner focus on this one.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1472227658-3pmyflf4qfd07l4fd1jxboahkl1enlgpw -Entei helped vs stall here 2hkoing bulky Hydreigon with banded sacred fire in the sun + burn damage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1472208765-abc1waepbbll6zcnzxzirc664xil0ujpw - Entei demolished zeraora and even tanked a mach punch from burned adamant conk from 47
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1470700215-wrsclbhdgejnhnmcxp4wavtisc5drb5pw - Entei took out Lando-T and Torn-t and since the band was knocked off, Clefable thought it could softboild. But Clefable going for softboild gives Heatran free entry and Heatran just dismantled clef with a flamethrower in the sun.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1470718673-hg2ofptwdlucaq7nln49944qk5v17rupw - Entei going ham killing conk in the sun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1470755772-a9okvzug4ak17q5fw6zk5eh1i9s19g8pw - Entei kills Lele on turn 1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1470806104-6uszjvokme6jyhrhcvf83tvdb4uuumtpw - Entei lives a bolt beak from Arctozolt and takes it better than expected
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1470808543-g3kg8zqgy7zripetqe9v3a6z1h9stsgpw - Entei kills clef from full and trolls Lando
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1470809682-ktmkh28iq1zg7aaa3o5bu50xpjdzip9pw - Entei being a menace to hail.

Entei might be usable outside of sun as sacred fire burns and espeed priority is always handy. Entei may lack the nuking capability of Victini or Darm but it has a spammable move in sacred fire, tantrum for Heatran and edge for Torn-t and decent bulk with base 100 speed being faster than Lele and water shifu. Entei has been a great partner for my specs Heatran, the two have combined well to take down walls allowing my Venusaur or Shiftry to clean up later. Ive also used Entei with specs Zard and the two complemented each other pretty well vs fat although granted you require decent hazard control with a replay here - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1476948087-eoht997am0lfinc6d5s4qw69x7u5rdtpw Entei sacred fire damage + burns put Ttar into the range of 2 specs earth powers from Heatran. All in all I feel Entei is worthy of a spot in C-.
 
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Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
I apologize for the delay. I had a complicated couple of days and forgot about this. You guys deserve someone who gives this thread the attention and time it requires as an active resource and I will do better to be that presence moving forward.

As we have gotten in the habit of doing, I am going to post the shifts and then open up the thread to 48 hours worth of questions. I get to every individual question I can and hopefully that will answer any questions without going too far out of the way. If you do not wish to ask publicly, feel free to VM/PM me, too. Also, please no repeat questions -- do your due diligence, thanks.

Rises
  • :Slowbro: from A- to A: Slowbro has been rising back up as the need for a more physically defensive Future Sight pivot continues to grow. Slowbro is oftentimes used as a response to Ground and Fighting types that can set-up teammates that appreciate a Future Sight looming over the head of the opposition.
  • :Blacephalon: from B+ to A-: The clown continues to blow the mind of players, coming back to relevance after being seemingly nonexistent for months. Choice Specs is devastating, oftentimes chewing through balance teams with Shadow Ball alone. People also periodically used Choice Scarf variants, which handle offense very well and can snowball against many unprepared opponents.
  • :Rotom-Wash: from B+ to A-: Rotom-Wash's presence as a pivot has continued to grow despite Kyurem remaining in the tier for right now and other Water types like Slowbro being common. Rotom-Wash's niche stems from being a great fit on bulky-offensive teams, oftentimes setting the table well with pivoting, inducing status, and threatening specific Pokemon out for teammates.
  • :Zapdos: from B+ to A-: Static is one of the most pesky abilities for a Pokemon frequently taking U-turn and Knock Off in battle. In addition, offensive Zapdos has a surprisingly good match-up against many balance and bulky-offensive teams while still maintaining a decent defensive presence.
  • :Zapdos-Galar: from B+ to A-: Everyone's favorite bird has continued to defy the odds and hold its own in OU largely due to how well it handles Landorus-Therian and how challenging it is to switch-into the dual STABs of.
  • :Hawlucha: from B to B+
  • :Mew: from B to B+
  • :Nihilego: from C+ to B-
  • :Rotom-Heat: from C+ to B-
  • :Regieleki: from C to C+
  • :Celesteela: from C- to C
  • :Polteageist: from UR to C-: Polteageist is a risky Pokemon to use, but it is ranked due to being a Shell Smash win-condition. It requires a good amount of support and has some match-ups it cannot handle, but with the right settings it can sweep.
Drops
  • :Corviknight: from A+ to A: Corviknight has remained a metagame staple in its debut generation, but the bird is flying down closer to Earth at the moment with the uptick in Defog Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, and even Scizor or Zapdos if they elect to run it. Corviknight is still a good option and maintains its defensive presence, but it simply fits onto fewer teams, especially with Bulk Up sets being a bit less common than prior metagames.
  • :Slowking-Galar: from A+ to A: Slowking-Galar has fallen out of favor with the uptick in other Kyurem pivots and regular Slowbro as pivot Psychic types, making other specially defensive pivots common on those structures. Of course, Sludge Bomb poisons and Future Sight threats still are quite appealing, but that is not enough to keep Slowking-Galar in A+ as a top 10 Pokemon in the tier.
  • :Tapu Koko: from A+ to A: Tapu Koko's pivoting prowess is great, but it is still not doing much progress wise against virtually any non-Garchomp Ground type right now. Setting the tempo and luring in Ground types or Grass types for teammates can go a long way, but not necessarily enough to keep Tapu Koko in A+ for the time being.
  • :Scizor: from A to A-: Scizor is still a great pivot to things like Kyurem and Tapu Lele, but it does not provide much offensively with the sets it uses to check these Pokemon, making it a limiting factor despite checking a few pressing options. It is hard to keep it in the A ranks when it accomplishes so little in many match-ups, especially when it struggles in many match-ups as a Defog supporter when people opt to go that route.
  • :Buzzwole: from A- to B+
  • :Hydreigon: from A- to B+
  • :Dragonite: from B+ to B
  • :Hippowdon: from B+ to B
  • :Skarmory: from B+ to B
  • :Slowking: from B+ to B
  • :Tyranitar: from B+ to B
  • :Rillaboom: from B+ to B
  • :Tapu Bulu: from B to B-
  • :Tangrowth: from B to C+
  • :Dracozolt: from B- to C+
  • :Swampert: from B- to C+
  • :Terrakion: from C+ to C: We are aware that many people requested a rise rather than a drop, but there was clear support for a Terrakion drop from the council. There are very few uses of it on the higher ladder or in tournaments, it provides nothing defensively (thus making building very challenging with it), and Terrakion still faces short-term checks like Landorus-Therian, Slowbro, and an abundance of revenge killers virtually every game.
  • :Amoonguss: from C to C-
  • :Porygon2: from C to C-
  • :Togekiss: from C to C-
  • :Slowbro-Galar: from C- to UR: Slowbro-Galar defensively lacks when compared to Slowking-Galar right now while the Quick Draw shenanigans simply do not see the usage to warrant viability right now.
Again: ask questions about raises/drops if you would like, but please no repeat questions. Will field and respond to them over the next 28 hours, thank you!
I disagree pretty heavily on the Terrakion drop, mainly bc that type of rhetoric is self fulfilling since ppl take this word as gospel. Before I say my piece, what has peoples issues been with building with and using terrakion. That mon is Fucking terrifying
 
I disagree pretty heavily on the Terrakion drop, mainly bc that type of rhetoric is self fulfilling since ppl take this word as gospel. Before I say my piece, what has peoples issues been with building with and using terrakion. That mon is Fucking terrifying
Terraikion is terrifying for whom? This isn’t just groupthink. The meta is awful for Terrak. As Finch said, it offers no defensive utility. That’s hard on the builder. What is it checking?

Furthermore, Lando-T is at like 50% usage and both defensive and Scarf sets check it. Off rip it’s useless in 1/2 games. It also doesn’t break Slowbro.

Compounded with that, it is revenge killed by way too many common threats - Dragapult, Kartana, Tapu Koko, Rillaboom, Zeraora, all Weather sweepers, and Scarf versions of Tapu Lele and Tapu Fini. And after a defense drop you can add Weavile, Tornadus-T, and Urshifu-R. That is literally the whole offensive meta.

Perhaps it could have some niche with Sand to augment it’s special defense. Unfortunately, no one has found success with that yet. I think Terrak is a C/C- mon. Hopefully someone will explore it more and prove us wrong..
 
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