Here are the responses to every question posed about the initial VR. These are done in an effort to be transparent and encourage community engagement so this thread can be lively. It is great that we already have four pages of discussion and I am looking forward to many more!
If you guys have any more questions over the next few hours, I will respond to them tomorrow, but fair warning that this is your last chance to before the thread returns to normalcy with nominations and discussion of placements taking over.
Personally I feel cinderace should be A+ rather than A given how amazing it is in literally every matchup where a pex isn't present but I'm sure the council has a reason for ranking things the way that they did. Interested to see what everyone else thinks about these rankings.
This is a totally fair opinion and there was not a unanimous verdict on Cinderace. I do believe you exaggerated a bit when it came to explaining the match-up dynamic, however. Toxapex is a defensive answer as you indicate, but not exactly the only one.
If Cinderace lacks Zen Headbutt, it is walled by Toxapex as we say, but oftentimes it still has to pick 2/3 of Gunk Shot / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch (assuming Pyro Ball and U-turn are staples with Bulk Up finding its way on to set-up sets over U-turn). Whichever move it drops leads to multiple other vulnerabilities and this is not all there is to it either. Regardless of the other moves it runs, some Pokemon can check it consistently (emphasis on check rather than hard counter like Toxapex might): Hippowdon recently rose to OU via usage and does quite well here, Swampert has been consistently present in the metagame and stomachs a few hits, RH Chomp and SR Lando-T can play spoiler in the early game, Slowbro forces it to spam U-turn all game to have any chance at making progress, Suicune is a promising check if it does not get lucky with Gunk Shot, and Rain teams are at least a bit more prevalent than before, which suffocate it between Pelipper and Swift Swimmers.
These potential forms of defensive counterplay are at least part of it, but also the speed tier of Cinderace forces it to be handled differently, too. Long gone are the days where Adamant Cinderace only really misses out on opposing Cinderace with menaces like Kartana, Latios, and even Zarude standing in the way of that prospect. Adamant is forced to at least run Sucker Punch, but generally Jolly is more common, which cuts into the damage output of Cinderace, especially against the above checks. Even Jolly Cinderace is now something many teams outrun without going too far out of their way with the abundance of Pheromosa, Spectrier, Tornadus-Therian, Dragapult, Scarf Landorus-T, and even Tapu Koko that we are currently seeing.
I think Cinderace is not too far from A+, but I do believe that there are a lot of roadblocks to it in the metagame that did not previously exist that make it more fitting for the A rank right now. I believe that your opinion is one that is valid, but I think the way you framed it also is not representative of the full picture and the things holding Cinderace back show why it got voted to be in A rank for the time being.
Nice to see the viability rankings thread back. Don’t have time to make a long post or anything, but the one thing that initially jumps out as a bit misplaced to me is Rain being ranked only B-. I could see Kingdra staying there, but I think Pelipper and Barraskewda fit in a lot better with the B ranked pokemon. What exactly was the reasoning behind ranking rain so low?
Seems like this question will continue to rain down (I hate me, too) on me in posts beyond this one, but I'll answer it here and then refer similar questions to read this response as well.
I think that Pokemon on Rain teams (and other non-Sand weather teams, for that matter) historically have been hard to rank highly on the VR in OU for the last couple of generations. While it is an improving team archetype, it is still hard to achieve consistent success with it and the Pokemon you see on these teams that you point out -- Pelipper, Kingdra, and Barraskewda, for example -- are only ever seen on Rain teams.
The thing is that viability rankings rank Pokemon, of course. And these Pokemon are viable for sure, but their viability is limited to a single archetype and this arcehtype at its best is seen as a strong form of offense (and at its worst is seen as a fringe hyper offensive sub-archetype). At the peak of Sticky Webs earlier this generation, Shuckle did not find its way out of the C ranks. At the peak of the Quick Draw Galar Bro HO spam on ladder/in tournaments this generation, Slowbro-Galar did not find its way out of the C ranks. However, at the peak of Sun spam during early DLC1, Torkoal and Venusaur found its way up to B (perhaps briefly B+, but that was promptly revoked as a slight overreaction). Rain right now is clearly better than it has been in recent months, but when you compare it to the other hyper offensive archetypes at their peaks, it does not really stand out now comparatively and it is certainly not up to where peak Sun was yet. I think it is much closer to being put in B than it is to falling down to C+, but I also think that we have to take a step back and realize that this list ranks individual Pokemon and these Pokemon we are discussing as Rain staples are just that -- staples on Rain teams that see no other usage. Unfortunately, this curses Pelipper, Kingdra, Barraskewda, and Seismitoad, a bit, but at the same time it is only fair as they do not have the same level of versatility and usefulness of Pokemon ranked higher, hence this being a viability rankings thread after all.
I do think that there is a good argument for "Rain teams" to see a bump to top abusers peaking in the B rank, but I also believe that a lot of the arguments presented come alongside a limited scope and the lack of understanding that viability at a high level oftentimes encompasses more than being useful on a single archetype. Pokemon like Blissey and Toxapex may be associated with stall, but are seen just as much on balance teams. Pokemon like Kartana and Pheromosa may be associated with offense, but are seen plenty on balance or bulky-offense as breakers. Not only is Rain more limited than entire categories like "balance, "stall", "bulky-offense", or "offense" as it is an archetype that is a sub-category of offense that does not constitute more than a fraction of the total offensive teams we see in the metagame, but it also has abusers and Pokemon we are discussing that simply have a limited niche in the metagame. They are still good Pokemon with uses in the tier, but we should not jump the gun on scaling them up the viability rankings given their current place in the tier.
Great to see the viability rankings up again!!
A few things I would like to ask about is the rankings of Garchomp, Kartana and Tapu Koko.
What roles does Chomp in particular play? I have seen defensive RH and SD with Scale Shot mostly. What makes it A+?
Life Orb Swords Dance Garchomp in general is one of the best breakers right now. While it may not receive as much hype as the more controversial things that many want to see suspect attention like Pheromosa, Spectrier, Urshifu, etc., it is still an amazing option. It poses a threat to >95% of the metagame at +2 while having great natural bulk (fun fact: Garchomp is bulkier than Swampert) and speed. SD, EQ, 2 of: Scale Shot, Stone Edge, Poison Jab, Stealth Rocks, Fire Fang, and Substitute makes for a pretty great offensive check, your Electric immunity being covered, and a soft check to Heatran all in 1 (potentially with Stealth Rock, too).
There is also mixed Garchomp, which few things check and most teams have to give up significant portions of their defensive core to manage, and RH Garchomp, which is not as great as it was a week or two back, but still serves a decent purpose as a bulky SR setter that can punish physical attackers. I do not believe that Garchomp was voted unanimously A+, but it handles a number of roles and does them all quite well, especially offensively.
Kart also I haven't seen too much of. Scarf and SD are obvious ones but again why is it good enough to be A? Scarf is easy to check and SD simply doesn't have the speed tier.
Scarf Kartana actually is not too great without support from Magnezone or Grassy Terrain, but Swords Dance + Life Orb Kartana has stood out as one of the few Pokemon that are virtually unwallable when you factor everything in. It is almost always forcing a trade at worst unless you face a Buzzwole or get no chip on common defensive pivots (i.e: you only need 10-20% on Zapdos/Moltres for them to be in +2 Knock Off range). It is a great early game breaker on hyper offense and good way to punish opposing defensive backbones on balance/bulky offense. Like Garchomp, it was not unanimous, but it received a lot of support to be A rank due to how strong it is.
Lastly Koko also. It is completely walled by mons like Nidoking, Excadrill which are very strong mons or Ferro which can lay down hazards. Also it is not particularly strong either even with choice items. Why has it been given A-?
Electric moves are actually very strong from it, especially when boosted, but it is a super fast pivot that can counter Tornadus-Therian and Zapdos all while taking advantage of common Flying types and Water types. It is true that it lures in some Ground types that resist Dazzling Gleam, but a U-turn into a complimentary breaker goes a long way for Tapu Koko structures. It is not seen higher due to it being support reliant, oftentimes functioning as more of a pivot than a breaker, and only fitting onto a limited number of teams, but it is still a respectable offensive pivot with a great speed tier and the ability to threaten out plenty of common Pokemon. You just gotta keep in mind with the Nidoking/Excadrill logic that U-turn Tapu Koko luring these things in can end up in net-positive sequences. Obviously Tapu Koko is not able to do it all by itself, especially without Hidden Power this generation, and this led to a slight drop-off in viability between generations, but it can still be a great option and that is reflected in its rank.
I am not making a point to change their rankings. I am simply asking why they have been put so and I wrote these points to illustrate, why I didn't think they would be in that respective ranking. It would be easier to understand if I get the answer directly concerning these points.
Hope this helped and if you have future questions, lmk in private and I would be glad to personally expand, too! :)
I'm surprised Seismitoad isnt in the VR even as a niche mon. Especially under the rain playstyle. Specs Seismitoad hits surprisingly hard under rain. Its niche over Kingdra as a special attacking swift swimmer is it provides rain with an electric immunity and if you put on water absorb over Swift Swim, it blocks Swamperts attempt at slow pivoting.
Covered by another poster, but Seismitoad is, in fact, ranked. Specs and Life Orb under Rain are both menacing!
Well we have another vr thread for this gen, and what do you know clefable still is the first Pokemon on the vr. Anyway, just wanted to ask, why is swampert so low? I feel it belongs more in the B+ rank, due to how good it is as a defensive pivot and rocker
Clefable is technically tied with everything else in S rank, but listed first based off of it being first alphabetically, for what it's worth. Regardless, it is still a top tier Pokemon for sure!
As for Swampert (and I will be prompting everyone who asked about it here as there are lots of very valid questions about its placement), it was absolutely a close call. I believe that Swampert would have been ranked higher a bit earlier in the metagame when we saw an abundance of Regieleki, Naganadel/Genesect roaming free forced Heatran onto many builds, and fellow Ground types did not provide this much competition. Unfortunately, metagame trends have not been kind to Swampert ever since its initial surge in usage. We see competition on a couple fronts in higher ranks and you do not tend to see Swampert structures that allow for a second Ground type, for example.
Another big thing is that as the metagame approaches a balance, the extremes tend to be favored more and more. Pokemon with either a more direct offensive presence or more durability defensively are oftentimes prioritized in the teambuilding process, which is reflected throughout the viability rankings and metagame as a whole. Stealth Rock setters like Clefable and Blissey, who have recovery moves, or Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, and Magma Storm Heatran, who have unique offensive presences that force specific counterplay from the opponent, see more and more usage while Swampert, which is more of an early game pivot that can soft check things, is becoming more fringe. While usage stats are not a good argument alone, they do serve as good evidence of the above claim as Landorus-T and Garchomp both rose significantly over the last 2 weeks of usage, now both being in the top 15. On the contrary, Swampert fell slightly, falling outside of the top 15. Moreover, it only received 1 vote to be B+. It is clearly closer to B+ than B- despite this as every other vote was for B, but it seems as if Swampert is more of a fringe pivot than it is a top tier option right now given this.
Very good work on the ranking! I am pretty confused about Kyurem placement, what does it have to have said stance in OU meta, and what makes it comparable to the likes of Hydreigon?
Also, considering Tyranitar being ranked pretty high in the list, what in your opinion is its best set?
Thanks in advance!
The Choice Specs (and even Substitute to a lesser extent) set on Kyurem is still very challenging to switch in-to. It is a bit more prediction reliant than before when Ice Beam + Freeze Dry where very easy to click without punishment, but resists like Heatran, Magearna, and Melmetal do not appreciate super effective coverage moves, especially with the former fearing an OHKO from Earth Power. While Kyurem is still a far cry from its impressive peak in the older metagame, it is a struggle for balance teams to contain it throughout the game if they lack Blissey.
Hydreigon is not much of a comparison to Kyurem, unfortunately. Offensive Hydreigon sets have seen a sharp decline since DLC2 came out. On the contrary, Hydreigon's viability is largely being sustained due to the Defog set with Earth Power / Dark Pulse / Roost / Defog, which lets it counter Heatran and Spectrier all while clearing the field. Of course, it still maintains an offensive presence and traditional Nasty Plot sets are viable, but it struggles with Pokemon like Tapu Fini and lacks a 2-3 move combination to cover a large portion of would-be checks like it could in the previous metagame, thus making NP sets underwhelming relative to previous metagames.
Tyranitar's best (and arguably only) set is the specially defensive Stealth Rock set. It is able to counter Pokemon like Spectrier and Zapdos while also checking other special attackers like Heatran, Tornadus-Therian, and Dragapult. Overall, the surge in Spectrier hype has helped Tyranitar a ton, as it can permanently shut it down when using Rest and still handle it for a significant portion of games without Rest. It pairs nicely with Excadrill to form Sand balance teams, which are quite common in the current metagame. It also has some versatility when it comes to picking moves; Stealth Rock and Rock Blast are very common, but you can see Rest, Thunder Wave, Earthquake, Crunch, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, or even other moves in the remaining slots depending on the team.
I appreciate the hard work put into this as usual! One thing I’m interested in, though, is some of the Pokemon ranked as C-. Specifically, I’m curious as to why Arctozolt, Shedinja, and Cobalion are placed in such rank, since not only have I seen practically no one use them, but I’ve also never really seen them being talked about at all anywhere. I can somewhat assume their basic niches, but I’d like to have to context to why they have niches in OU based on how they fare against specific and important parts of the metagame. I know that the lowest ranks aren’t really much interest to the majority of players, but I’ve always been intrigued by this section of the rankings due to the interesting Pokemon that are seemingly deemed “viable,” even if it’s to the lowest degree (which makes it even more interesting, at least for me).
Arctozolt is seen on specific Alolan-Ninetales Aurora Veil hyper offensive teams that have recently been successful on the ladder. Shedinja is a fringe option on stall, walling some Pokemon like Pheromosa, Magearna, and Tapu Koko that can otherwise be annoying to handle. Cobalion is actually a mistake and got carried over when I was copying over the VR from last time; it must have gotten caught up in the copy pasting of some Pokemon over from B ranks to C ranks as it actually received a majority of UR votes. I have removed it! In the prior metagame, it was a respectable option as a fast Stealth Rock pivot. Good catch my friend. Hope the explanations for the other help, but let me know if you have any other questions.
I feel like Suicune should be at least B+. If it switches in on the right mon, or is allowed to set up for even a single turn, it can easily snowball out of control if you lack a hard check like Toxapex.
Suicune absolutely shows some promise in the metagame, but it is remarkably inconsistent as it stands. It is true that it can snowball out of control and turn would-be losses into wins in many balance match-ups, but with the tier being filled with more fast-paced teams and Toxapex being quite common on bulkier teams, it is hard for it to establish the same level of consistency it has when it has thrived in prior generations of OU unfortunately. We do believe there is a lot of potential there and its current ranking reflects that, but it is going to remain until it gains more traction and the tier is a bit more friendly to it in the future.
Just wondering the reasoning for zapdos-g being B- rather than higher up given its fantastic typing, ability, statsand offensive movepool that pressures slot of the meta?
Fair question! Zapdos-G unfortunately has not gained much traction in the tier after the initial hype wave passed. It can be a threatening option to offensive teams with Choice Band, especially if it comes in on a Defog, but that is about all there is to it. Defensive backbones can oftentimes scout it out thanks to Regenerator or having durable resistances to STABs while set-up variants of Zapdos-G are not strong enough to muscle through these teams without lots of support. It is also worth noting that Zapdos-G provides very little defensively, especially with it lacking Roost. This limits the amount of teams it can function on, which is even more cause for concern in the current metagame.
Glad to see the VR back once more. Just something I do wanna point out, I'm kinda surprised to see Dragapult in A rank alongside Landorus, Blissey and Cinderace. Idk I feel like everytime I've tried Dragapult I just wish I had horse. All the mons in A rank feel more consistent than Pult to me and while Pult has dragon stab and fire coverage it still feels weak to me unable to really sweep or accomplish much other than being annoying with status + Hex. But Ttar and Buzz being so common because of horse really doesn't do it any favors. At least Lando always gives you value via Knock off or rocks while providing Electric immunity and checking a lot ot shit and Ace gives you that offensive momentum and priority. I struggle to see any sets that might guarrant Pult being A rank material, maybe one rank below? It's not strong enough not consistent enough (Can't even ohko Spec without specs) Perhaps Specs Pult is the wave and I'm missing out on that but I dunno I'd love to be proven wrong.
I think you are trying too hard to compare Dragapult and Spectrier when they are vastly different Pokemon. Dragapult is more of an offensive pivot that can be a revenge killer (even of Pokemon like Spectrier thanks to Infiltrator) or abuse strong coverage. Spectrier is more of a breaker and win condition. You mention trying to sweep with Dragapult and that role is absolutely better for Spectrier, but with options like U-turn, Dragapult can come in to force out a slower threat and then take advantage of whatever it lures in defensively by clicking U-turn to get in the appropriate teammate or by clicking the right coverage move for the occasion.
The two Pokemon are fundamentally different, accomplishing separate things. I believe that Dragapult's versatility and ability to control the flow of games is impressive in the current metagame. It does lose some usage due to builds preferring Spectrier as the Ghost and other Pokemon to fulfill this role such as common Choice Scarfers like Landorus-T or other pivots like Tapu Koko, but Dragapult still retains a lot of this niche's usage across team structures, thus warranting a place in the A rank at the time.
why the fuck is swampert a rank below blaziken?
Obviously was not thrilled with the tone of this question given my response earlier, but now that an example was made to prevent future posts like this, I will still respond to the question.
Swampert is something we unanimously ranked below Blaziken. They are vastly different Pokemon that serve entirely different roles, so I fail to see why you are comparing the two. I touched on Swampert's ranking in my response to
The Dragon Master if you would like to see. As for Blaziken, it is in the shadow of Urshifu and Pheromosa at times, but it is still a huge threat that can snowball out of control with the combination of Swords Dance and Speed Boost, thus landing it in B+!
I am personally interested in the lower ranks as well - the top ranks look like they make a lot of sense (I especially appreciate Magearna at S Rank, I hope this motivates another suspect test for this...thing in the future)
Swampert at B Rank: I would argue atleast B+ because it is one of "those" Pokemon which contributes in each game and battle. If that doesn't sound like an argument for you, think of how Magearna always does something in each battle, just not as overpowered - that's Swampert for me. I use it to check Pheromosa, Spectrier. I even had success with AV Counter/Mirror Coat (+STABs) - Counter is wondeful against U-Turn.
Glastrier at C Rank: I tried Adamant Full Speed(outspeed Base 60) and Brave TR sets. I am underwhelmed by it. Am I missing something?
I have more but since a lot of people are asking I am refraining from other questions.
Regarding Swampert, read my response to
The Dragon Master above!
As for Glastrier, it has been a threat on Trick Room teams, but even if you are underwhelmed by it, this is still only C rank. C ranks generally are for fringe viable Pokemon. One cannot deny that Glastrier has some viability as it is used on almost all Trick Room teams, but C reflects it being mediocre or less consistent than higher ranked options, which is also true.
so why ferro is A+, the only S tier and A+ tier mons it can checked are ferro, pex and slowbro. Like urshifu destroys it, +2 chomp eq destroys it, phero CCs and specs spectrier 2 shots it. what kind of defensive utility can it provide of?
Ferrothorn is the best Spikes setter in the tier, but it also is capable of plenty defensively, despite being ranked largely due to its great utility. It can be used for countering most Melmetal (Superpower is only used on CB, which is decreasingly common), taking advantage of just about every wall and passive Pokemon with Spikes, handling all Calm Mind Tapu Fini, countering Tapu Koko, and deterring common choiced Pokemon from locking into their STABs such as Latios, Tapu Lele, Kartana, and Rillaboom, which makes using them a lot less effective than it otherwise would be as they become entirely prediction reliant.
You have to keep in mind that no single Pokemon, let alone any single defensive presence, can handle even a large majority of threats. Everything has weaknesses. Clefable is in S rank, but Heatran completely blanks it, Melmetal OHKOs it, and Nidoking takes advantage of it fully, for example. Sure, Ferrothorn struggles with the handful of Pokemon that match-up well with it in the higher ranks, but it also has a ton of situations where it can thrive that allow for it to be A+.
I'd really like to know why both
and
are so low down in B-. In my experience, rain has been quite a consistently good playstyle, so it's weird seeing it up there, as is seeing
-RS, another mon usually seen only in rain teams, one rank above.
Regarding Rain as a whole, refer to my response to
MilkyWay earlier in this post as I touched on Rain in great detail there.
As for Urshifu-Rapid Strike in particular, it is seen a decent amount outside of Rain, which helped it move a subrank or two higher than it would be based off of Rain teams alone. The Choice Band set functions very well with Future Sight and the occasional trapper set can be used to lure Pokemon like Toxapex, too.
Thanks a lot for the rankings! I am curious regarding rain (Pelipper/Barraskewda) ranking so low, given it is pretty viable even in high ladder.
Ferro and excadrill, while are superb mons, do not seem that good in this meta or at least I do not see them that much with Urshifu, Pheromosa, Cinderace and other threats around. Can you explain the ranking?
Also, Nidoking seems a bit high, could you develop a bit on that? There are other better ground types and while its coverage is fantastic it is outsped and ohkoed by a large part of the meta.
Regarding Rain as a whole, refer to my response to
MilkyWay earlier in this post as I go into a lot of detail explaining Rain Pokemon's placement.
Ferrothorn I touched on before in my response to
king magikarps and I would read that for a more lengthy answer, but to elaborate: Ferrothorn is the best Spiker and one of the least risky ways to abuse the abundance of passive defensive Pokemon in the metagame. It is able to force Knock Off, Spike, Leech, etc. on numerous occasions each game against balance without any real way to abuse it beyond risking a common offensive Pokemon or repeatedly going to the same Defogger, making it an obvious and abusable pattern of its own.
As for Excadrill, it's still one of the best Ground types and one of the few viable Rapid Spinners. In addition to this, it is a staple on Sand teams and capable of luring in a lot of Pokemon with either Toxic or Rock Slide when you can fit either on Swords Dance sets, which means Excadrill is great at forcing progress. It was voted to be here unanimously because of this and other side-roles it fulfills like abusing Clefable and countering Tapu Koko.
Nidoking has been great in the metagame. Naturally it can check Tapu Koko and Clefable while hard-countering Regieleki, which alone is great for a Pokemon seen as quite fragile, but offensively it is a complete menace to everything not named Blissey. Of the Pokemon that are OU by usage otherwise, it 2HKOs everything with the standard 4A set. Great coverage, the ability to get in on the aforementioned Pokemon, and a ton of power thanks to Sheer Force gave it some life for the time being.
I was also curious as to what the logic is for separating
from
and putting it in S tier, as opposed to both being on the same A+ or S tier. Is it just the splashability of Magearna pushing it to S?
I do not see how they are remotely comparable as Pokemon. Magearna has more sets it can use and is closer to being able to handpick its checks and counters. It is also much bulkier with a better defensive typing. Yes, it is true that it is less strong outright with the non-Choice Specs sets, but it makes up for this with the other qualities that each common set has. Urshifu is great, but there are still match-ups that are a tad unkind to it and it also offers a lot less defensively, even when compared to the most offensive Magearna sets.
I’d like to mirror some earlier sentiments in the thread but not as rudely- why is Swampert so low?
Touched on this in my response to
The Dragon Master, but we will be sure to vote on it to rise as you and others have nominated it, much like we will address other nominations come the appropriate point in time.
Y’know, I really was thinking Zarude would fall off a hell of a lot more on a ranking like this, once zygarde got banned, but surprisingly, it’s still good enough for a solid B ranking. Is that what being able to stuff Spectrier’s attacks able to do to a Pokémon?
A lot of teams struggle to handle Zarude's Bulk Up + Jungle Healing set, especially with Buzzwole no longer being needed on so many teams. Spectrier is one of the driving forces being using Zarude for sure, but it is not limited to just this thankfully. Zarude is fast and relatively strong with great natural bulk. It would be better if it could fulfill more concrete roles defensively, which arguably holds it back from seeing more usage, but it still serves a respectable place in the metagame right now.
My Boy Buzzwole
Anyways my question is why is Buzzwole placed in the same tier as Blaziken? Blaziken is walled by some of the most splashable mons in the tier (Pex, Fini, Bro) and it still fails to break through them even with neat tech. It needs to be in pristine condition to even kind of sweep and it will always have to take a hit even when setting up. Killing itself with Flare Blitz recoil, especially if the opposing team has a Blissey sack, doesn't help either. Of course it's also probably going to UU. Buzzwole, on the other hand, walls many of the top tier pokemon. Garchomp, Melmetal, Urshifu, Excadrill, Kartana, Landorus-T, and Rillaboom (in A). It also functions as a blanket check to many lower-tier mons you may encounter on the ladder or in tournament, such as Diggersby, Terrakion, Zarude, Scizor, and Urshifu-R. Why is it then ranked so low? Maybe it's because futureport OHKOs it, but imo that's not dealbreaking when it deals with so many mons already. Sets nowadays may get away with not even running Bulk Up, which worsens it against Zarude but gives it means to pressure Fini, Bro, and Pex coming in, maybe with moves like Taunt or Toxic.
In general that B+ tier is fire and I don't see how Blaziken or Buzzwole fit into it, Blaziken being too bad and Buzzwole being too good.
Buzzwole took a pretty big hit when the bans of Zygarde and Kyurem-Black took place. It is true that Blaziken is not living up to the hype, but the Swords Dance sets can get out of hand for offensive teams really quickly despite this.
Blaziken also has been experiencing some shifts in what it does, ranging from trying out coverage moves to hit the Pokemon you mention to even exploring new items like Protective Pads to increase the amount of opportunities it has. On the contrary, Pokemon have been adapting more to Buzzwole with more people using Toxic Excadrill or special Pheromosa. Future Sight + Teleport also being paired with many top options that struggle with Buzzwole is a major issue for it, oftentimes making people think twice before electing to use it.
I think that if we made these rankings a week or two ago, Buzzwole would be closer to A rank and Blaziken would be closer to B rank, but now it is much closer. Blaziken actually received a few votes higher than Buzzwole, too. Personally, I voted for both to Blaziken to be B+ and Buzzwole to be A-, but even despite this I think it makes a lot of sense as Buzzwole was fringe for me and things are trending in the wrong direction for it all over.
I know this has been asked for but I don't think we've got a reasoning as to why swampert is in B rather than B+ or even A-. Its a fantastic wall that can utilize slow momentum with flip turn, and helps check a lot of mons like excadrill, blaziken, dracozolt, landorus-t, and more. It's definitely just as good as something like hydriegon or dracozolt in this metagame, if not even better.
Check my response to
The Dragon Master for a detailed answer about Swampert's placement!
Ferro over Toxapex doesn't look good
Slowbro in A+ tier when it has one meme-y role with futureport and its scald / defensive set is outclassed by Pex is a little iffy
Pult in A rank for all the negative press it receives is interesting
Kartana is under utilized given its ranking here compared to its ladder presence
Moltres feels high compared to something like Corviknight maybe its offensive presence helps it?
Slowking is high for a one dimensional mon
The whole B+ tier seems right and Magnezone feels under utilized given its placement in these rankings
The rest seems fine but C+ has a lot of really strong mons I could see some moving up. I would agree that every mon on the list is viable aside from maybe Xatu and Shedinja. While I've seen both in OU I still question their viability or usefulness and with Xatu it could be my inexperience with the mon giving me that impression.
my .02 as someone who mainly spectates.
Already covered the first point before; they are both A+.
Slowbro is not outclassed by Toxapex and calling FuturePort "memey" indicates you are probably out-of-touch with the metagame. Future Sight + Teleport strategies with specific physical attacks have been running rampant for a few weeks now; dozens of posts in metagame discussion have been dedicated to the topic and this has been quickly shaping the metagame as a whole. Slowbro is the driving force behind this and was unanimously ranked highly.
Moltres's defensive presence is the selling point; it does very well against Melmetal, Pheromosa, Heatran, Rillaboom, Kartana, etc.
I would appreciate if you did not post in the future if you mainly speculate; theorymon is pretty strictly prohibited and we opened this up for questions to people who played the tier and wanted more information rather than people making statements that do not provide any justification or metagame experience. I would love for you (and others) to participate and hope to see you post more, but it has to be backed by experience from the metagame moreso than sheer speculation.
Thanks to the VR team for putting this up! May I ask why is Swampert not higher? It seems more consistently useful to me than most of the stuff in B rank, as it's one of the best users of a slow pivoting move in the tier, and is one of the few decent checks to heatran and magearna. I would say it is better than Gastrodon at the very least.
On a different note, what makes this metagame so different than gen 6 and gen 7 OU (or even nat dex) so that Nidoking is ranked this high? I get that beating clef and pex is more important than ever, but aside from that what changed? I fully understand that those metagames are different and that talking about them is not really the point of this thread, but I fail to see what makes Nidoking so good here and so underwhelming in other metagames, so I thought I would ask anyway.
Regarding Swampert, read my response to
The Dragon Master above as I go into it in more detail there.
As for Nidoking, it is able to counter Tapu Koko as well, which lacks Hidden Power Ice, and it is one of the few Pokemon that soaks up Toxic Spikes, which have had stints of being better than ever before. However, I think that being able to blank Regieleki and hit the entire metagame aside from Blissey is really driving it. Some would-be competitors and would-be defensive answers are lacking that were present in prior generations and National Dex, for example. It is really a combination of these factors. Other fringe things like pairing well with Teleport to get in safely could be noted here as well.
Was Heatran considered for S? I really feel like Heatran should be S just because how splashable and how good of a defensive Pokemon it is and it's signature move Magma Storm lets it wallbreak so well. It's not bad offensively either with Scarf and Specs being pretty good as well.
Yes, it was not unanimous in A+. It will be voted on for S again, but just barely missed out last time. The Scarf and Specs sets are less so the focus here, but overall Heatran is an amazing presence right now and helps define the tier. The thing is that you can say the same for a lot of other A+ Pokemon, too, which arguably are also fringe S rank.
My one question is why salamence is unranked? I can't really argue against this assessment since I haven't used or seen salamence a lot and I know that it is mostly outclassed by other dragons but it must surely have some kind of niche in OU or does it really have nothing going for it?
Well, you yourself said that it was mostly outclassed by other Dragons, so what kind of niche do you think it would have? Nobody has identified or showcased one that made us believe it was worth ranking yet, but a proper nomination can change matters in the future!
I can't really fathom what niche this Pokémon has with specs being so slow and competing heavily with gearna and cm sets competing with Tapu Fini, who has better Bulk, Taunt, and Misty Terrain. if there's something im missing here i'm happy to be corrected.
Primarina has Flip Turn and much more special attack than Tapu Fini, giving it what seems like enough of a niche to barely stay ranked. I will say that people voted to UR it and it will likely be on the chopping block next time, so even if there is a niche by definition, it could be UR due to lack of actual usage and effectiveness regardless, so stay tuned.
Also, covered the topic of Rain above in my response to
MilkyWay, for what it's worth, as I know you mentioned that as well.
While I definitely agree that Rotom-H is a lot weaker than it was pre-dlc, especially with new checks like Swampert, Garchomp and Heatran in the tier, I don't think C+ is accurate for it. Its ability to check common sets of a lot of specific top offensive threats (Melmetal, Magearna, Torn-T, Dragonite and Sand Drill) keeps it valuable to me as a defensive pivot, and while its offensive sets have become generally outclassed by faster electric types like Zapdos and Koko, it has enough supportive presence with Defog and Toxic that I believe it can still provide for it's team. I'm definitely at least curious to know why it's being ranked so low.
We have not really seen many people make use of it seriously since DLC2 dropped. Personally, I have maybe seen 2-3 total over the course of hundreds of games. It faces stiff competition from so many things and it also lost its ability to pose a consistent offensive threat due to the Pokemon you mention. It does check some things as you said, but it is not even foolproof against those either as Melmetal is running Toxic a lot, Magearna can eventually break past it, and Excadrill oftentimes uses Toxic or Rock Slide on Sand teams. It just feels as if the entire metagame is trending against Rotom-H and nothing in practice has shown otherwise unfortunately. This has been reflected in its initial ranking.
Since we're allowed to ask questions I'm curious as to why is Salamence unranked? Is it considered 100% outclassed by dragonite? I figured it was about on par with dragonite though the usage stats (and these rankings) do not agree. It does seem to get about as much usage as a lot of the other C+ to C- ranked mons in the 1695 and 1825 stats though so there must be a group of people that are getting use out of it.
See:
Ruft's post and the quotes in it, but also my response to
Miscellaneous9999 above covers it. Hope this gives some clarification. Keep in mind that usage alone, especially if it is not particularly high, does not have a direct correlation to viability. It is more of a supportive point than a standalone argument to rank something generally. Also, I hope you had a nice dinner aha!
Why is Victini ranked so highly? What niche does it have? Not asking to be rude, I just literally haven't ever seen it.
Future Sight + U-turn with Heavy Duty Boots has been really strong for me personally. Future Sight / Blue Flare / Scorching Sands / U-turn is able to synergize really well with common physical attackers or Cinderaceon Sun, making for some super strong cores that are hard to play around. With Heavy Duty Boots and superb natural bulk, it is very accessible, especially due to it checking a handful of common Pokemon that you see ranked highly.
Thanks for putting the VR together. It looks pretty dang good, but I have a couple questions.
1) Why is Regieleki up in B? I understand that it has a niche, but that seems a bit high, when you consider that stuff like Aegislash and Swampert are in the same tier, both of which seem significantly more consistent. The offensive choice sets are pretty up and down, considering how match-up fishy they are, as you’re effectively fighting 5v6 if the opponent has a ground type still around. Is it based on the screens set? I haven’t seen a whole lot of that, so I’m curious about how effective it actually is in practice.
It's pretty much solely for the Dual Screens set on hyper offensive teams, yes.
2) Why is Latios in A-? I know that’s a high tier already, but it genuinely feels like A material to me. It’s a very strong option in this metagame, being able to hit almost literally everything for very solid damage. With pursuit being gone, it’s difficult to punish it that effectively, and it can deal good damage to a majority of the higher tier mons, even stuff like Mandibuzz and Clefable if it gets a boost off first. It also helps that Dragapult, although still good and relatively common, has dropped off a small bit because of how good Spectrier is. Is it because of Spectrier’s ubiquity? Although Spectrier is an issue, it also can’t switch in without risking a power psychic/psyshock or draco meteor, so I don’t see how that alone would prevent it from going up to A.
Thanks for the continued commitment to transparency.
A lot of times, it is prediction reliant due to the sheer number of resistances and immunities to its STABs, which holds back its effectiveness in an increasingly fast and priority heavy metagame. I would argue that it would be A rank, too, as that is where I initially voted for it to land, but I think A- is fair given the amount of roadblocks it encounters and how many other strong Pokemon currently sit in A-.
I feel like once people start realizing Latios serves some defensive purpose (excelling against Heatran, Ground immunity, abusing Slowbro, checking Blaziken STABs, etc.) as well as being an absolute nuke if you get the move right, it will gain more traction. Right now, building is still fairly limited and it does not always fit onto common structures, which arguably holds it back as a whole, too.
Hello! I just have a quick question, why is there such a large difference between the rankings of regular Slowking and Galarian Slowking? While I understand that reg Slowking does answer nidoking, as well as some other mons, Slowking-G is helpful against fini and other fairies. Additionally, while it is true that usage does not always equal viability, Galarian Slowking moved up to OU in the recent shifts, likely due to the high usage of fairies currently, while regular Slowking remained RU. Is there a reason Galarian Slowking is ranked so low at B-, while regular Slowking is ranked A-?
Slowking-G should be higher if it was up to just me, but also the rise of AV Slowking-G is a development that really peaked over the last few days, which predated the start of our voting. I think that Slowking's placement is fine and Slowking-G is likely to be voted on again during next slate, finding itself much closer to A- if I had to guess/spoil my own vote on it.
I just wanna know what happened this Gen to take Blaziken from Ubers to B+
Blaziken struggles to break through bulkier teams, especially due to its moveset limitations. In addition, offensive teams do not let it set-up particularly often and through CC defense drops and Flare Blitz recoil, can oftentimes force trades with it, especially given that priority can pick it off promptly after much chip is taken. It will likely find a better place in the metagame as it settles, hopefully moving beyond the B+ rank, but for now it is sitting there in a mostly underwhelming position. Finally, keep in mind that it also had access to Z moves last generation and a less deep pool of defensive counterplay in generations prior, which could have led to it being more problematic comparatively.
to S. It's not very splashable, but that doesn't matter when you can just spam shadow ball/hex and win for free if the opponent doesn't have some sort of check. It's arguably the single most important pokemon to build checks for right now and for that I believe that it belongs in S tier.
