Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Fc]

After playing around with some things for a while, I have a few noms that I think are reasonable as well as a few others to agree on from other posts.

Agree with --> A+
Dragapult is really versatile currently and is one of the best breakers currently, with specs, hex, and dd sets all being quite large threats while other sets like scarf could still probably see some usefulness. It covers a ton of things offensively so I think it should rise to A+ as a result.

Agree with --> Down somewhere
Buzzwole just kept on losing its reasons to be used as things like mosa, Zygadre, Kyurem-b, and Urshifu were banned, and with everything in the meta that's near the top I don't think it should be in B-. Not sure how far it should drop since there's still potential for Banded sets to do something since the coverage it has is nice, but should drop regardless.

+ stay A
I think both mons are really good overall, and I don't think that either really need a change. Slowking is a good less passive special wall compared to Blissey, and can check and pivot out on a ton of dangerous special mons that are really hard to wall. Alternitavely, Slowbro is less prevalent post Cinderace ban but I think still deserves to stay where it is because it can still check dangerous offensive threats itself such as Garchomp or Excadrill while having the same qualities as Slowking. I think Slowbro dropping is more reasonable than a raise for Slowking personally, but for now I do think both deserve A.

--> B-/C+
The Spectrier ban really hurt this thing, as now it gets threatened by most things ranked above it while not providing a ton against a lot of common picks for teams. Scarf is decent for U-turn and speed control while Bulk Up against the right teams can be threatening, but I don't think it has what it needs rn especially with how good Rillaboom and Kartana are as offensive Grass-types for competition.

--> B/B+
I think Urshifu is quite good currently despite the walls at the top of the meta that can threaten it. CB Surging Strikes and CC even out of rain is a super threatening combo, and U-turn is solid for pivoting and as Slowking gets more popular as a Water + Fighting resist, those U-turn's will hurt a lot. Future Sight is always nice with it for Toxapex, and I've had some success running it with more offensive pressure that can threaten some of its walls like Zeraora and Latios with Knock off mons that bait in similar checks to remove helmet. I think it's better than most things around it ranked and should rise as such.

--> C
Not sure if C is the perfect rank for it but I think it should drop regardless. Without Magearna it doesn't have anything over Nidoking really, since it can't even try to pivot in on that mon and check it while exerting pressure. Nidoking is really good and I think gives little reason to ever use Nidoqueen over it.

Now for a little more out there nomination,
UR --> C/C-
Offensively Starmie is a really threatening pick, as pretty much nothing barring Slowking or Ferrothorn wants to switch in, and if it opts to run Thunderbolt then Slowking can take them but doesn't appreciate the hits. Ferrothorn hard walls all the attacks pretty much, but a lot of mons just drop to it clicking Analytic boosted attacks. It's quite fast compared to some breakers like Garchomp and Kartana and can act as revenge killers for those and an offensive check to things like Heatran, so I think with the niche that it has it should be considered to be ranked somewhere. I'll drop the set I've tried out and some calcs as well with Analytic and not.

Set

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Recover / Thunderbolt

Calcs

Vs.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 274-325 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 257-304 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 333-394 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 212-251 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 277-328 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 151-182 (49.6 - 59.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 156-185 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 200-238 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 203-239 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 263-309 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs. (you're only hitting this on switchin realistically)

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 305-360 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Vs.

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 77-91 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 299-354 (77.4 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 390-460 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 175-208 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 192-229 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 230-270 (54.3 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 250-296 (59.1 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: ty to glava222 for pointing out I needed Starmie replays, I didn't save a lot from when I laddered more with it so I got a few games that hopefully shows off some of what it can do, I'll explain each scenario a bit with the repalys.

Replays

[Gen 8] OU replay: Fc04 vs. Adrift00 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
The opposing team does have an AV Galarian Slowking, but after using Starmie as an offensive pivot into Heatran I was able to click Psyshock for 60 free % forcing it out into Mandibuzz, something that took over 60 from Hydro Pump. I did get a lucky freeze on the Slowking as it came back in and a crit on the landorus, but for specifically Starmie's breaking those didn't matter a whole lot since the Mandibuzz was super weakened and it just needed to get plays right later on, and lando wasn't really taking it on anyway. It picks off the Slowking later on, and offensively threatens out Urshifu to get a final kill later on the Sylveon. (ignore me choking the endgame lmao)

[Gen 8] OU replay: Blessed 9'inch vs. Fc04 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
The opponent had a Ferrothorn so I thought Starmie wouldn't do a ton here, but it was actually able to be quite clutch overall. After chipping Ferrothorn with Melmetal if was forced in on Starmie and took an Analytic boosted Ice Beam into another to finish it off. Based on the crit damage the crit only mattered with like 2 min roll Ice beams, as with Analytic it does upwards of 40%, and my own Ferro would have prevented Leech Seed recovery in the case I got a min roll the first time so Starmie could just pick more stuff off later. It can just keep offensively pressuring from there, forcing out Keldeo and getting in a good position for kills before the Keldeo missed pump and it was over anyway before it could shine more.

[Gen 8] OU replay: Year1990 vs. Fc04 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
A great showing for it here, the opposing team is fairly well equipped for other waters like Urshifu with Mandibuzz + Azu + aegi, but as soon as Starmie can abuse Heatran which is one of its best traits imo it can deal a ton to Aegislash which dies to recoil after. It forced out banded Zapdos-G and got another kill on Mandibuzz but couldn't do more bc of a low roll on Zapdos but it still helped the team immensely so Rillaboom could clean.

[Gen 8] OU replay: Fc04 vs. Sleep by the waves - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
On lead Starmie immediately threatens most of the team, forcing out lando and doing a ton to Blissey which I mentioned in the calcs section, and after it clicks teleport the defensive answers really aren't there. Some pivoting around with it and it manages to get 2 kills and could have gotten more every time the Urshifu or Lando came in if the game continued. More offensive based teams like this that rely on special wall Blissey can have a super tough time switching into Starmie.

Overall it just shows to be a strong wallbreaker that when paired with good supporting mons can break quite a few common cores and threaten out slower mons in a good speed tier. I could see this being quite debatable since it can sometimes be underwhelming, but I do think it's deserving of a rank based on its qualities.

 

[glava222]

Now for a little more out there nomination,
UR --> C/C-
Offensively Starmie is a really threatening pick, as pretty much nothing barring Slowking or Ferrothorn wants to switch in, and if it opts to run Thunderbolt then Slowking can take them but doesn't appreciate the hits. Ferrothorn hard walls all the attacks pretty much, but a lot of mons just drop to it clicking Analytic boosted attacks. It's quite fast compared to some breakers like Garchomp and Kartana and can act as revenge killers for those and an offensive check to things like Heatran, so I think with the niche that it has it should be considered to be ranked somewhere. I'll drop the set I've tried out and some calcs as well with Analytic and not.

I do think you need to provide replays to get a mon ranked unfortunately :/

 

[Ox the Fox]

Rises
--> S Rank: I think Garchomp is the 2nd best pokemon right now, only behind landorus-t. It has great bulky rocks sets as well as the best setup set in the tier, SD scale shot. SD scale shot is an absurdly good sweeper rn and can beat or at least get 1-2 kills in any game. It's also one of the few good checks to heatran with compressing rocks + a ground type in the slot.
--> A+ Rank: Everyone has already said a ton about this so I don't really have much to add. It's one of the most consistent speed control mons rn + in general just a really annoying thing to switch into.
--> B+ Rank: This was just recently moved up, but I think it should rise up even more. After the mage and ace bans this thing got so much better. SD is one of the best late game cleaners in the tier right now, and band is always a pain to switch into.
--> B+ Rank: Magnezone has been on the come up recently, with both the ID body press sets and specs sets being really good. My personal favorite set is ID body press as it traps the absurdly hard to kill ferro, but specs is also solid atm. Magnet pull is the obvious choice on specs to trap corviknight but analytic can also be a really strong option for nuking teams that rely on landot/chomp to stop electrics.
--> B+ Rank: Broken moth is broken and should be higher than B due to its ability to sweep so many teams lategame. I would rate it higher but its hard to with chomp and pult being so common right now.
--> B-/B Rank: Band bisharp is one of the best wallbreakers right now, taking advantage of slow teams that rely on slow teleport mons + clefable as their defensive backbone. Assurance is a bitch to switch into with rocks up, and knock is ofc strong as always.

Drops
--> B Rank: Latios is in a really bad spot right now. Most teams have a mon that outspeeds + kills it, as well as a ton of mons like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Clefable which can pivot around it with ease. It either lacks damage without specs, or uses specs and becomes really easy to pivot around the correct move. The choice scarf set is pretty cool right now but I find its mostly just good for crippling one of those slow switch ins, rather than putting in a ton of work itself.
--> B- Rank: This thing just isn't sweeping many teams right now, and also doesn't check much defensively. It was better when spectrier was around and slowbro was on every team, but right now it I don't see much reason to use it.
--> B+ Rank: On paper blissey seems really good as it theoretically checks every special attacker, but in practice most special attackers either have a pivot move or just double switch out. It's also passive af and is extremely easy to take advantage of with stuff like SD garchomp and SD weavile.

 

[Kazt_5]

It have passed some time since the Magearna and Cinderace ban. We have seen the rise and drops of some mons in the meta and now is a good time too reflect and nominate what changes could be made on the VR.

Rises:

from A+ to S I don't think anyone will feel offended by this nomination. One of the hardest mons to switch in, great stats and amazing typing; very easy to fit on teams thanks to how many things it checks. All this makes this mon easily one of the best mons of current OU.

from A to A+ Dragapult was already very good after Spectrier got banned and now with Cinderace and especially Magearna it can do basically anything it wants, Hex, Specs, Sub, and even Dragon Dance have become meta again, it is very good at everything it does and with its amazing speed tier is able to revenge kill everything but scarfers and Zeraora.

from A- to A Another winner of the Cinderace ban, now with one less mon to revenge kill it Kartana becomes increasingly harder to check, with now SD Life Orb being its prefered set destroying most of the current slower meta game.

from A- to A It was already one of the strongest if not the strongest special attacker in the tier. With its great stab combination there's very few things that can safely switch in without taking a risk of being OHKOd or taking huge amounts of damage. It can pack moves for each one of its checks and make a lot of progress by itself if the opponent predicts the wrong move.

from B- to B+ With Toxapex and Slowbro being a little less needed in teams and Landorus-T and Heatran on top this mon just gets better and better. One of the best abusers of FS/Port, and with a very decent defensive typing and bulk it can switch in on a number of things. Complementing all of this with a good speed tier just above Kyurem and Tapu Lele this mon can pressure a lot of teams. All of this without mentioning rain.

from C+ to B- Bisharp have been getting more usage lately thanks to its good typing and scary offenses making it a great breaker. Being able to even sweep some teams if it gets the opportunity to set up with Choice Band being a good option too.

from C+ to B- Mew have been picking up as a hazard lead in a lot of offensive teams, being a pretty good option thanks to its good match up against other hazard setters with its access to taunt and a good speed tier. It have the option to run Ice beam for Landorus and Flare Blitz for Excadrill and Ferrothorn. And even the option to be a late game sweeper with its Cosmic Power set in more bulkier teams.

from C+ to B-/B Still don't understand what is it doing here. Hard to answer in some teams, great HO mon. It 2HKOs almost every mon that is neutral to its attacks.

from C to C+/B- I'm not that big a fan of this mon but come on, it deserves better. Specs/Scarf in rain is a very scary set to deal with and it can put good amounts of work with the Sub/Taunt/CM in some match ups.


Drops:

from B to B- Kommo-o have been trying for so long, still isn't good.

from B to C Who is this again?

from B- to C+ I like Hatterene but this one drop should have happened a long time ago.

from B- to C+ Bootleg Nidoking. Still good if you want a more defensive aproach but not much reason to use it.

from B- to C Ditto really fell out of grace after all the OP stuff got banned. Useful on some stall teams but that's about it.


Let me know if you agree/disagree with any of my nominations and why. Have a good day

 

[Finchinator]

I don’t think Garchomp should be S rank.

It is a very good Pokemon with a number of strong sets, but none of them stand out as particularly strong. The SD sets are easily the closest, but there’s enough universal counterplay to contain it, making it support reliant or part of strong cores that doesn’t require doing much of the legwork alone.

I absolutely agree it is one of the top Pokemon and very possibly to fit onto teams, but it does not stand out as much as any S rank Pokemon in recent history.

Landorus-T sees more usage than Garchomp and has what may be the single most focused in-on set in the metagame with its SR pivot variant. Toxapex and Clefable previously were huge defensive staples with largely distinguished presences. Everything else we saw in S rank in recent times was suspected or banned promptly. Garchomp is not in this category or a metagame defining presence to the extent that it would qualify for S in my eyes. It’s the epitome of a strong A+ Pokemon.

 

[Katy]

rises i agree with:

rise up. it cemented itself as one of a fundamental pillar on many teams as it is very splashable with checking plenty of great special attackers and with nido and lele on the rise and heatran being always one of the top prevelant metagame pokemon it surely deserves a rise.

rise it, it is on plenty of teams, wether it is specs or calm mind, this pokemon pressure a good amount of teams and even with steel-types like corviknight a team can not always check it reliably as specs or calm mind-boosted psychics do a lot. tapu lele also has a decent enough speed tier to hold its own.

was on a bad downfall, but gets used alot more again, in ost and spl alike, it achieves decent winrates, i believe this pokemon can go on a rise again.

drops i agree with:

didnt see it in ages tbh, it doesnt feel as effective like it once was, in a metagame with zygarde as it was one of the better pokes to deal with it, and with volt-turn cores on the rise it faces alot of pressure especially with zeraora, tapu koko, tapu lele, tornadus-t, etc on the rise which arent in zarudes favor at all.

stay where it is at:

stay a+, sure it is a top pokemon, but i don't think it is ready to be an s ranked pokemon with a plethora of a counterplay which also sees alot of usage and decent winrates, the scale shot sd set is really great but the defense drop hurts it a lot and therefore is a lot more prone to getting revengekilled.

that is all i have to say for now.

 

[BT89]

Rises
A+ —> S

This thing is so good right now. It fits on so many teams because of how many things it checks, it’s great typing, and good offensive power. It is also pretty hard to switch into. What more could you ask for?

A —> A+

This Pokémon is crazy right now. Insane speed along with strong firepower leaves this mon to be one of the hardest Pokémon to reliably beat in the entire tier. Spectrier leaving really opened this Pokémon up to wreak havoc once again on this tier and leads me to believe this Pokemon is a true top-tier threat.

B+ —> A-

I feel like Melmetal got dropped too hard. Sure, it didn’t find much usage, but this thing is still pretty damn strong. It still despises chip, which is still a big flaw, but it’s just so strong that I feel like it is warranted a rise.

B —> B+

Magnezone is back once again as the biggest Steel destroyer in the tier. RillaZone teams are currently terrorizing the tier, mainly because Magnezone is able to beat more or less every Pokémon that Rilla loses to. This thing is also very strong with Specs. Overall, quite solid, and it should definitely rise.

B —> B+

Weavile is quite insane after Magearna and Cinderace are removed from the picture. It is one of the most terrifying late-game sweepers in the current meta and is overall quite hard to switch in on. Combine its horrifying offensive prowess with its good speed tier, you got a strong offensive threat that can outspeed and kill multiple notable threats.

B —> B+

Rotom-Wash is back at it again in OU, being annoying to fight against and pivoting around everything. Honestly, this Pokémon is slightly underrated. It can work as a nice pivot that is able to apply offensive pressure, which its decent offensive stats allow it to do quite well. I really like this Pokémon in this meta.

B —> B+

Volcarona is actually terrifying right now. This thing's biggest issues are the existence and prevalence of Garchomp and Dragapult in the current meta. This thing is such a terrifying late-game sweeper, what with its amazing offensive power after a Quiver Dance. I do fully support the rise of Volcarona, but it shouldn’t go any higher to B+.

B- —> B

This Pokémon is quite intimidating right now. With the usage of its checks going down, this Pokemon is a major threat. It is able to pressure many teams with its combination of good typing, alright bulk, and great abuse of FSPort. Overall, quite a scary presence, and an absolute monster under the rain.

C+ —> B-

Don’t really understand how this mon ended up here. This Pokemon can pose a decent threat. It can be used for anti-Defog measures, which allows it to become quite strong, with neutral hits being clean 2HKOs. This Pokemon is solid, put it up a bit at least.

C+ —> B-

I have been experimenting with this Pokemon lately, and I realize that this thing can be quite the menace if used correctly. It pairs very well with FSPort, which lets it become a major threat. It also has great offensive typing which gives it quite rewarding STABs. I think this Pokemon is pretty underrated, so take this nom with a grain of salt.

C+ —> B-

What if you wanted to Defog, but Bisharp came in? Yeah, this mon is scary after Defiant. I feel like it can assume this role better than Zapdos-Galar, but both are still quite valid options. Don’t have much to say about it, so we move on.

C —> B-

I do not think this Pokemon should be put in the same area of viability as Uxie and Xatu. This Pokemon is quite dangerous after checks and counters are deleted. Specs and Sub CM are the most dangerous sets, especially under the rain, which give it real firepower. I think this mon is quite solid and leads the gap into the drops.

Drops

A+ —> A

I feel like Ferrothorn is ranked a tiny bit too high. I feel like it just isn’t as good as the other A+ mons. There is enough counterplay that can warrant this Pokemon dropping. Losing to Fire-type coverage immediately is quite a boon. Of course, you can just use it in rain, but rain isn’t too great of a playstyle. I just feel like, even though this Pokemon is good, it isn’t A+ in my opinion.

A- —> B+

Blissey is just solid. It should check multiple special threats in the tier, but it is just too passive to really get anything done, and most Special attackers have ways of beating out Blissey through means of pivoting out. It is also extremely vulnerable to many physical attackers, which leaves Blissey in a weird state in the meta right now.

B —> C/C-

This mon sucks badly. It was only used for Spectrier and now it’s terrible. Being weak to one of the most common moves in the game is one thing, but what it actually beats is going down in usage, meaning this thing is losing niche. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was UR.

B —> B-

This Pokemon is terrible, and you know it. This thing checks a single thing and loses to most of everything else. It’s also on the brink of UU, barely escaping its eventual fate every usage shift. Overall, bad Pokémon, please don’t use it.

B —> B-/C+

This Pokemon is a meme for me. It’s only real use is as a late game sweeper once all the Ground types are removed from the picture, but there is usually always Ground-types in the picture in any given match, which leads this Pokemon to be a bottom-tier OU Pokémon. If Hidden Power comes back, this thing will be so much better. This thing is on the brink of irrelevance.

B- —> C

I believe all of these Pokémon should be in C rank, all for different reasons. Firstly, Hatterene is too slow to do much of anything in a serious match, which severely impacts its ability to be used. Nidoqueen is strictly inferior to Nidoking. Finally, Ditto is bad now that all the OP stuff is gone. It’s a niche stall mon, but other than that, useless. All 3 of these mons are pretty much equally sucky, so I thought to just plop them in the same rank.

Now for the moment we’ve all been waiting for...

The (Should Be) UR Squad!



Literally what does this thing do. It sets screens? It’s hard to justify Screens in a Pult meta, and even then, you can just use Koko or even Eleki for Screen setting. It sets Rocks? Use any other viable rocker in the tier, as they will likely be much better. It’s a neat pivot? There are many better pivots that give more than Uxie can. I cannot understand how this Pokemon is ranked in the same tier as Keldeo. Please unrank this thing.



This Pokemon is terrible. It only has a niche on sun teams, which are terrible in the current meta game, as Heatran gets to eat them up, as well as rain. Bad mon, moving on.



Incineroar only has use as a very niche pivot that loses to many relevant Pokemon, most importantly Heatran and Garchomp, two mons you never want to be losing to. Incineroar’s speed is also quite terrible, which, even though helping with its defensive utility as a slow pivot, makes it outsped by forementioned Heatran and Garchomp. Again, a bad Fire-type starter that should be UR.

Edit: Im adding a stay tier for some stuff.

Stay



This thing is quite a terrifying presence, but is it S tier material? Not quite in my honest opinion. There is just enough counterplay to warrant it staying in A+. Scale Shot lowering your defensive prowess is quite bad, as it leaves you more open to being RK’ed by many notable threats.



Kartana has been terrorizing this thread with some ... questionable takes being brought up. I personally think Kartana is fine where it is one the VR. It’s a great offensive presence, but has enough counterplay and weak points (mainly having the worst Special Defensive prowess in the entire tier) to stay A-.



Controversial one, I think. Mandibuzz should stay in A- in my honest opinion. This thing blanket checks quite a bit and is a solid glue for any team. I believe it’s biggest issue is that it doesn’t destroy anything, and that there are better things to check what Mandibuzz checks. It’s still good, but on the lesser end of it.

 

[escarlata]

Literally what does this thing do. It sets screens? It’s hard to justify Screens in a Pult meta, and even then, you can just use Koko or even Eleki for Screen setting. It sets Rocks? Use any other viable rocker in the tier, as they will likely be much better. It’s a neat pivot? There are many better pivots that give more than Uxie can. I cannot understand how this Pokemon is ranked in the same tier as Keldeo. Please unrank this thing.

Uxie's only niche in OU is as a TR suicide lead with SR/TR/Magic Coat/Memento, which is gimmicky but it definitely is among the top 2 best options for. Trick Room itself is mostly a gimmick, but some TR sweepers are in the C ranks, so I'd say it's alright there. Dual Screen Memento is "potentially" viable as a set, which only faces competition with Latios, but even then both have their advantages over the other. I'm pretty sure the C rank is for the TR lead set tho.

 

[musiquepkmn]

B -> B+

With a predicted rise in Slowking + Corviknight cores and similar structures, Amoonguss has showed itself to be a great teambuilding glue option. OU defensive mons are mostly birds or bulky waters, so have something that can handle Tapu Koko more reliably than Scarf Landorus-Therian is always nice. Amoonguss also holds the above core together against rain teams, Urshifu-Water, Kartana (Amoongus should carry Foul Play), and acts as a check to the offensive grounds and ghosts which could mean trouble. It serves a general regenerator role, similar to Toxapex, since at the moment it's health isn't always too important. It also has the OP sleep move Spore. Here's the set I've been using:

Amoonguss @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Clear Smog
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play

I've been experimenting with Boots Amoonguss, not only because its the only mon on my team without boots but also because it lets it common spikers like Ferrothorn and Skarmory in for free, so at least being able to ignore what they set up is useful. Stealth Rocks affect Amoonguss much more than they do for Toxapex, which serves a similar role, so considering HDB is always a good idea.

At the moment, the whole B tier is kinda messed up, with a lot of the mons deserving B+ and a lot of mons deserving B- or the C ranks, so if it turns out later that the B power level rises, Amoonguss could belong in B.

 

[BT89]

Uxie's only niche in OU is as a TR suicide lead with SR/TR/Magic Coat/Memento, which is gimmicky but it definitely is among the top 2 best options for. Trick Room itself is mostly a gimmick, but some TR sweepers are in the C ranks, so I'd say it's alright there. Dual Screen Memento is "potentially" viable as a set, which only faces competition with Latios, but even then both have their advantages over the other. I'm pretty sure the C rank is for the TR lead set tho.

Yeah, I can see that. But I feel like Trick Room is just too niche to really justify using right now. Sure, it can definitely work there, but where it works isn’t really that good as of now. I might change my lowering of it to C-, but just barely, as TR still has some sort of niche.

 

[escarlata]

Yeah, I can see that. But I feel like Trick Room is just too niche to really justify using right now. Sure, it can definitely work there, but where it works isn’t really that good as of now. I might change my lowering of it to C-, but just barely, as TR still has some sort of niche.

I may be mistaken about this, but Trick Room as a playstyle has traditionally always been ranked in C/C-, with the best supports being in the same tier or a tier lower than the best abusers, which seems to be the case right now. I'm pretty sure Cresselia who is in the same tier with Uxie is only ranked for her TR support set as well, and both are under tier 1 abusers like Crawdaunt and Glastier, and in the same tier as tier 2 abusers like Conk and Alowak. This seems right to me as those 2 are in fact among the top of TR supports. Notably, nothing sets up a for SD on Crawdaunt or Glastier in TR better than Uxie thanks to Memento.

 

[BitBitio]

Now for a little more out there nomination,
UR --> C/C-
Offensively Starmie is a really threatening pick, as pretty much nothing barring Slowking or Ferrothorn wants to switch in, and if it opts to run Thunderbolt then Slowking can take them but doesn't appreciate the hits. Ferrothorn hard walls all the attacks pretty much, but a lot of mons just drop to it clicking Analytic boosted attacks. It's quite fast compared to some breakers like Garchomp and Kartana and can act as revenge killers for those and an offensive check to things like Heatran, so I think with the niche that it has it should be considered to be ranked somewhere. I'll drop the set I've tried out and some calcs as well with Analytic and not.

Set

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Recover / Thunderbolt

Calcs

Vs.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 274-325 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 257-304 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 333-394 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 212-251 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 277-328 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 151-182 (49.6 - 59.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 156-185 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 200-238 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 203-239 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 263-309 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs. (you're only hitting this on switchin realistically)

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 305-360 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Vs.

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 77-91 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 299-354 (77.4 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 390-460 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 175-208 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 192-229 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 230-270 (54.3 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 250-296 (59.1 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: ty to glava222 for pointing out I needed Starmie replays, I didn't save a lot from when I laddered more with it so I got a few games that hopefully shows off some of what it can do, I'll explain each scenario a bit with the repalys.

Replays

[Gen 8] OU replay: Fc04 vs. Adrift00 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
The opposing team does have an AV Galarian Slowking, but after using Starmie as an offensive pivot into Heatran I was able to click Psyshock for 60 free % forcing it out into Mandibuzz, something that took over 60 from Hydro Pump. I did get a lucky freeze on the Slowking as it came back in and a crit on the landorus, but for specifically Starmie's breaking those didn't matter a whole lot since the Mandibuzz was super weakened and it just needed to get plays right later on, and lando wasn't really taking it on anyway. It picks off the Slowking later on, and offensively threatens out Urshifu to get a final kill later on the Sylveon. (ignore me choking the endgame lmao)

[Gen 8] OU replay: Blessed 9'inch vs. Fc04 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
The opponent had a Ferrothorn so I thought Starmie wouldn't do a ton here, but it was actually able to be quite clutch overall. After chipping Ferrothorn with Melmetal if was forced in on Starmie and took an Analytic boosted Ice Beam into another to finish it off. Based on the crit damage the crit only mattered with like 2 min roll Ice beams, as with Analytic it does upwards of 40%, and my own Ferro would have prevented Leech Seed recovery in the case I got a min roll the first time so Starmie could just pick more stuff off later. It can just keep offensively pressuring from there, forcing out Keldeo and getting in a good position for kills before the Keldeo missed pump and it was over anyway before it could shine more.

[Gen 8] OU replay: Year1990 vs. Fc04 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
A great showing for it here, the opposing team is fairly well equipped for other waters like Urshifu with Mandibuzz + Azu + aegi, but as soon as Starmie can abuse Heatran which is one of its best traits imo it can deal a ton to Aegislash which dies to recoil after. It forced out banded Zapdos-G and got another kill on Mandibuzz but couldn't do more bc of a low roll on Zapdos but it still helped the team immensely so Rillaboom could clean.

[Gen 8] OU replay: Fc04 vs. Sleep by the waves - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
On lead Starmie immediately threatens most of the team, forcing out lando and doing a ton to Blissey which I mentioned in the calcs section, and after it clicks teleport the defensive answers really aren't there. Some pivoting around with it and it manages to get 2 kills and could have gotten more every time the Urshifu or Lando came in if the game continued. More offensive based teams like this that rely on special wall Blissey can have a super tough time switching into Starmie.

Overall it just shows to be a strong wallbreaker that when paired with good supporting mons can break quite a few common cores and threaten out slower mons in a good speed tier. I could see this being quite debatable since it can sometimes be underwhelming, but I do think it's deserving of a rank based on its qualities.

I actually very much support this nomination! Starmie has a ton of potential as a breaker- In comparison to one of our other strongest breakers in Nidoking, Starmie boasts extremely similar power when it gets the Analytic boost, and in fact, on a neutral, non-STAB hit, is in fact stronger.For reference:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.5% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 139-164 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Nidoking is often regarded as one of the best breakers in the tier due to its power and coverage, but isn’t able to break Blissey with Superpower/Focus Punch. Starmie, on the other hand, has access to STAB Psyshock which allows it to break through Blissey reliably. Additionally, the two possess comparable levels of bulk-

0 Atk Mew Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 76-90 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Mew Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 70-83 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Starmie also possesses a much faster speed tier that prevents a number of opponents from acting as sufficient offensive counterplay. Essentially my point here is that Starmie is a great breaker- while not necessarily on the level of Nidoking, it hits some really similar numbers and overall can function on a comparable level.

I also have some replays to further emphasize the fact that Starmie deserves a rank! I eyeballed the team that Fc used in their replays and gave it a go myself.
In this game, I lead with Starmie since Lando-T is a super common lead. Most Lando-T immediately U-turn if Scarfed and this does hurt Starmie, but barring a crit, can’t OHKO.
However, this Lando was a defensive set as revealed when they hard switched. Their team does have a good answer to Starmie in Tapu Fini- you can see from our first interaction that Starmie can’t do much to it. However, in turn 12, I scouted the Victini on a bit of a risky play and ate a V-create. The damage received revealed that it was Band, which meant that it needed to be chipped down a bit but would be revenge-killable by Zeraora in the lategame. Further on in the game, I chipped down at the Tapu Fini until it was in range of Psyshock, and suddenly, nothing could switch into Starmie. You see throughout the game how potent it is- getting 4 kills, all of which were against the defensive core of their team, demonstrating how scary Starmie is as a breaker.
In this one, I sacked Starmie to Glowking partially since I thought Starmie would live, but in the early parts of the game, it got two big kills on Lando-T and Clefable, greatly weakening their ability to threaten my offensive threats for the remainder of the game. You can stop watching this one after turn 13 since I won in large part due to Starmie in those 13 turns, but in any case it’s a good showcase of what Starmie can do.
This one probably marginalizes Starmie the most- however, it still manages to continually come in and threaten the opposition, taking out Slowbro and then staying in my party for the remainder of the game. However, Slowbro dying really weakens their ability to position and coordinate offensive plays due to an inability to safely pivot in, which shows on the lategame.
Starmie also has potential for customization- while Recover and Ice Beam both prove useful in these games, either could be substituted for Thunderbolt which lets Starmie defeat Slowking reliably, Rapid Spin to potentially run away with the game against teams depending on faster threats such as Pult and Koko to revenge kill Starmie, and even Flip Turn to bring in like a Magnezone or something to remove Ferrothorn.
Overall I just wanted to show my support and help people realize how solid Starmie is. I agree with C or even C+ for it. Starmie also has a defensive spinner set but it’s kinda bad and doesn’t merit a rank by itself.

 

[toaster04]

I don't think Starmie should be ranked.

i'm not going to only justify "hurr durr there are better special breakers you can administer in the tier" as my only argument for this post, but i feel like thats a very narrow lane you can go in when deciding if starmie should be ranked. i'm also quite confused about the other niche it holds, of course its a breaker, decent speed tier and 426 SpA if we're accounting for 328 * 1.3 being the life orb boost.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 257-304 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Starmie: 100-100 (38.3 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

this is decent, thats it, I feel like Starmie still ends up being weak tbh. in an in-battle scenario, your opponent spreads out chip damage, fair enough. if your opponent gets up rocks and LO chip is taken, the bliss can soft repeatedly and Starmie eventually loses, or seismic toss while it keeps taking orb chip.

252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

honestly a bad thing. it doesn't OHKO which i can completely understand, but can bring in a breaker like Dragapult or Torn to revenge in some situations.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.5% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 139-164 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

an obvious comparison, from the post above. but why is Analytic being calculated when you're clearly faster than Mew? illuminate and analytic are useless imo, if Starmie gets into the MU where its actually slower than a mon above 361 you'll either A) die, or B:

0- SpA Zeraora Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 158-188 (60.5 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 122-144 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

feel free to correct me on this one because im unsure if analytic will be taken into account after a pivot move is used and your opponent gets momentum

thats all folks

edit: clarification

 

[Martin]

I don't think Starmie should be ranked.

i'm not going to only justify "hurr durr there are better special breakers you can administer in the tier" as my only argument for this post, but i feel like thats a very narrow lane you can go in when deciding if starmie should be ranked. i'm also quite confused about the other niche it holds, of course its a breaker, decent speed tier and 426 SpA if we're accounting for 328 * 1.3 being the life orb boost.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 257-304 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Starmie: 100-100 (38.3 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

this is decent, thats it, I feel like Starmie still ends up being weak tbh. in an in-battle scenario, your opponent spreads out chip damage, fair enough. if your opponent gets up rocks and LO chip is taken, the bliss can soft repeatedly and Starmie eventually loses, or seismic toss while it keeps taking orb chip.

252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

honestly a bad thing. it doesn't OHKO which i can completely understand, but can bring in a breaker like Dragapult or Torn to revenge in some situations.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.5% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 139-164 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

an obvious comparison, from the post above. but why is Analytic being calculated when you're clearly faster than Mew? illuminate and analytic are useless imo, if Starmie gets into the MU where its actually slower than a mon above 361 you'll either A) die, or B:

0- SpA Zeraora Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 158-188 (60.5 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 122-144 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

feel free to correct me on this one because im unsure if analytic will be taken into account after a pivot move is used and your opponent gets momentum

thats all folks

edit: clarification

I have no opinion on Starmie's rank at this point in time, but Analytic also works when the opponent is switching out. The main use of Analytic is to hit Pokemon that switch into Starmie hard. Of course, Starmie has that really awkward issue of just not doing anything to Ferrothorn, but otherwise, there aren't any really noteworthy holes in its coverage that I can think of barring obscene Pokémon like Blissey and the Slowkings that no special attacker besides designated rule-breakers Heatran and Lele can challenge well anyway, and really LO Starmie is supposed to be threatening versus BO rather than anything else, which it's pretty OK at doing that for what it's worth—being faster than 110s goes a long way for a 'mon with as good coverage as Starmie+Analytic, though I'd need to use it to really get a feel for how well it works in practice.

That said (and I say that knowing that what I'm about to post is more of a metagame discussion thread post than a VR thread post—it's just a convenient excuse to bring it up), while I've not had a chance to try it out yet, I think Starmie would probably be useful in this format as a Heatran check with Natural Cure, perhaps as a bulky spinner on Spikes balance with a set similar to fatmie from ORAS:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam / Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Scald

The big downside of Starmie in this format is mostly just Pult being everywhere, but 115 is really good despite this and if Pult comes in to absorb Spin/Scald, it runs the risk of eating 50% from Ice Beam or paralysis, so it's not free spinblocking or anything. Psychic might also be nice to have versus Shifu, Gengar, and the like, but they're not overly common and sacrificing Scald would defeat the point of running Starmie, so it struggles to make room for it. There aren't actually that many options for spinners in this format, with most hazard control being either HDB or Defog, the former of which can be dealt with to an extent with Knock and the latter of which is detrimental alongside Spikes, so having a remover that not only uses Spin but also has defensive utility thanks to its typing+Speed+reliable recovery and can absorb status, and it matches up pretty well vs a number of common hazard setters like Garchomp and Lando as well.

Something like Recover+3 attacks might also be solid—like I said, I've not had a chance to try it yet (though I have a half-ready Starmie team drafted up from when I started thinking about bulky Mie yesterday)—but if anyone has any experience with either set it might be interesting to hear how you've found it.

 

[Redfeatherz]

Rise to C+

I've been playing around with (Meteor Beam) Nihilego a bit recently and I think it really appreciates recent metagame trends. With Magearna being banned and Melmetal falling off, Corviknight and Heatran have cemented themselves as the top defensive Steel-types. This means that there is a real lack of Rock resists that don't also fold to Grass Knot, which makes Nihilego much more reliable. The popularity of Nasty Plot Tornadus also makes Nihilego a safer switch-in to the birdman whereas previously Superpower/Knock was a lot more common and slapped around the jellyfish. It still has its issues (hates seeing Ferro, somewhat awkward speed tier, scarf lando, excadrill still exists, etc) but I'm only nomming it to C+ here lol

I'd like to echo this nomination. With Power Herb, Nihilego can put on immense amounts of immediate pressure with STAB +1 Meteor Beam, especially later in the game. It commands a lot more respect now it doesn't have to worry about all those deadly Magearna variants. As a highly specially defensive rock/poison type, it can capitalise on a lot of the fairy and flying type support mons we currently see used, and also serves as a good switch into Volcarona (even if they do carry Psychic) and can check Specs Dragapult . Note that it takes special hits from everything even better in sandstorm.

It is no surprise that certain special walls, plus steel,rock and ground types prevent it from sweeping teams from turn 1. However, Nihilego isn't completely powerless to them, either. It can run either knock off or corrosive gas to consistently remove assault vests, boots and leftovers from its typical switchins. It is still forced out, but later on, both Slowking forms must stay very healthy if they are to even pivot into Nihilego without +1 Meteor Beam blowing them away. Excadrill, Melmetal, Ferrothorn, <insert more names of non-bird steels here> lack solid recovery options and thus really cannot afford to lose their leftovers if they want to wall Nihilego indefinitely. They can all only take a certain amount of power gems, hazard damage, rocky helmet and other chip from teammates before +1 Meteor Beam on the switch, in addition to the +1 follow-up attack, can simply overwhelm them. Some switchins (such as tyranitar,garchomp, swampert, blissey) are also vulnerable to sludge bomb and being poisoned, so even after losing their leftovers or becoming vulnerable to entry hazards, they can be worn down even faster. It absolutely benefits from hazard support, sand, and other status spreaders.

Finally, once it gets a KO, a beast boost in speed turns it into a quiver dance sweeper of sorts, but one that never needed to dedicate a moveslot or turn to setup. This, plus its immunity to toxic and its strong offensive STABs ultimately mean it doesn't need to worry about regenerator walls as much as many other physical and special attackers, as it can use the high immediate damage output of Meteor Beam to 2hko most of them, or force ko's on their teammates. The current poularity of SD Garchomp and Rillaboom encourages a lot of defensive investment on Corviknight, and Nihilego capitalises on this.


TLDR: Rise to C+. This thing has great offensive, defensive and support utility. With knock off/ corrosive gas, it does a great job at crippling its own walls for itself or other members of its team. Depending on the matchup, it can be a breaker, sweeper, revenge killer, or all of the above.It has great speed and a great ability to keep it difficult to revenge kill. Rank C seriously undersells it.

Defensive and Offensive Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 211-249 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego in Sand: 141-166 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 240-284 (63.4 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego in Sand: 160-190 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

+1 176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 149-176 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 312-367 (78 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 142-168 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Slowking-Galar (Assault Vest Removed): 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[ausma]

I would like to nominate Tornadus-T from A+ to S, and here's why.



Tornadus-T is one of the most commanding offensive threats in the entire tier with access to a Nasty Plot-boosted Hurricane and solid coverage options, a fantastic ability in Regenerator, a phenomenal speed tier, great utility in U-turn/Knock Off/Defog, and a solid typing that lets it check relevant offensive threats such as Rillaboom, Landorus-T, and Kartana. In tandem with each other, I feel as though Tornadus-T is the most flexible offensive and even defensive Pokemon in the tier, even moreso than Landorus-T.

Tornadus-T is one of those Pokemon that provides a ton for teams while also presenting itself as an incredibly polarizing force. Access to Knock Off, in particular, lets it force progress with any one of its sets, particularly against would-be checks like Tapu Koko, Slowking-Galar, and Zapdos with its Nasty Plot wallbreaker set, and also being a great tool on a Defog variant to stifle the same Pokemon in addition to Stealth Rock setters like Landorus-T. It does not mind using Knock Off or other utility moves prior to wallbreaking, since the combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Regenerator allows for it to find a wealth of opportunities to switch-in, check the aforementioned wallbreakers with its typing and speed tier, force progress, then get out and do it all over again, leading up to a devastating series of Hurricanes or forcible momentum for its team. For these reasons, it suits my definition of an S tier Pokemon: a polarizing, powerful threat that is super reliable and provides a great amount of role compression for teams in need.

For the record: I do not consider Tornadus-T to be a broken threat since it certainly can be checked and shut down, but then again, it's the same case with Landorus-T, who we also consider to be S tier. I genuinely think that Tornadus-T is the best Pokemon in the tier.

Overall, Tornadus-T is a unique yet stunningly effective wallbreaker Pokemon capable of not only forcing progress but effectively dealing damage and providing a wealth of defensive utility simultaneously, which I think is absolutely incredible in a metagame where role compression is super important. Seriously; when its only real weakness is the accuracy of its moves, it's pretty hard in my eyes to not make a case for it to be a versatile S tier threat.

also yes rise nihilego. nihilego is a super neat wincon that i'm surprised hasn't been brought up before

 

[unfunny meme]

I actually very much support this nomination! Starmie has a ton of potential as a breaker- In comparison to one of our other strongest breakers in Nidoking, Starmie boasts extremely similar power when it gets the Analytic boost, and in fact, on a neutral, non-STAB hit, is in fact stronger.For reference:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.5% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 139-164 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Nidoking is often regarded as one of the best breakers in the tier due to its power and coverage, but isn’t able to break Blissey with Superpower/Focus Punch. Starmie, on the other hand, has access to STAB Psyshock which allows it to break through Blissey reliably. Additionally, the two possess comparable levels of bulk-

0 Atk Mew Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 76-90 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Mew Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 70-83 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Starmie also possesses a much faster speed tier that prevents a number of opponents from acting as sufficient offensive counterplay. Essentially my point here is that Starmie is a great breaker- while not necessarily on the level of Nidoking, it hits some really similar numbers and overall can function on a comparable level.

I also have some replays to further emphasize the fact that Starmie deserves a rank! I eyeballed the team that Fc used in their replays and gave it a go myself.
In this game, I lead with Starmie since Lando-T is a super common lead. Most Lando-T immediately U-turn if Scarfed and this does hurt Starmie, but barring a crit, can’t OHKO.
However, this Lando was a defensive set as revealed when they hard switched. Their team does have a good answer to Starmie in Tapu Fini- you can see from our first interaction that Starmie can’t do much to it. However, in turn 12, I scouted the Victini on a bit of a risky play and ate a V-create. The damage received revealed that it was Band, which meant that it needed to be chipped down a bit but would be revenge-killable by Zeraora in the lategame. Further on in the game, I chipped down at the Tapu Fini until it was in range of Psyshock, and suddenly, nothing could switch into Starmie. You see throughout the game how potent it is- getting 4 kills, all of which were against the defensive core of their team, demonstrating how scary Starmie is as a breaker.
In this one, I sacked Starmie to Glowking partially since I thought Starmie would live, but in the early parts of the game, it got two big kills on Lando-T and Clefable, greatly weakening their ability to threaten my offensive threats for the remainder of the game. You can stop watching this one after turn 13 since I won in large part due to Starmie in those 13 turns, but in any case it’s a good showcase of what Starmie can do.
This one probably marginalizes Starmie the most- however, it still manages to continually come in and threaten the opposition, taking out Slowbro and then staying in my party for the remainder of the game. However, Slowbro dying really weakens their ability to position and coordinate offensive plays due to an inability to safely pivot in, which shows on the lategame.
Starmie also has potential for customization- while Recover and Ice Beam both prove useful in these games, either could be substituted for Thunderbolt which lets Starmie defeat Slowking reliably, Rapid Spin to potentially run away with the game against teams depending on faster threats such as Pult and Koko to revenge kill Starmie, and even Flip Turn to bring in like a Magnezone or something to remove Ferrothorn.
Overall I just wanted to show my support and help people realize how solid Starmie is. I agree with C or even C+ for it. Starmie also has a defensive spinner set but it’s kinda bad and doesn’t merit a rank by itself.

i mean to be fair nidoking always run lo because of sheer force so it would do more damage then analytic starmie and the opponent would have to outspeed for anayltic to work (or switch but the opp will probably go for a res). while starmie can run lo to i think it gets chipped hard and having to recover when dipping to 50 sucks because it can give a fast strong mon like zerorao or any scarfer to come in free but thats what i think

 

[airfare]

nominating watershifu for B or even B+ depending on how it does over the next couple weeks

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Band / Protective Pads / Choice Scarf
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Aqua Jet

replays showcasing watershifu's use

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-546151 - OST Quarters: Luigi vs Star
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-547593 - OST Quarters: lax vs Nat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-547371 - Smogon Tour Week 2 Finals: Tace vs egalvanc
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-546318 - SPL Week 9: mncmt vs John W
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-546811 - SPL Week 9: watashi vs Eo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-547956 - SPL Week 9: Rumor vs Aurella

and more

With Cinderace's ban, physically defensive Toxapex and Slowbro usage decreased in favor of a new trend toward newer, more specially defensive Water-types - most notably Slowking and Toxapex switching to a more specially defensive spread, as well as the decline of Rocky Helmet on Toxapex, Landorus-T, or Garchomp. Urshifu-R, typically walled by the physically defensive Water-types, has recently seen usage in tournaments on bulky offense teams (not dedicated rain where it's usually seen otherwise) as a hard-hitting and fast pivot, usually utilizing Choice Band to hit harder or Protective Pads to block adverse effects from Rocky Helmet, Static, and Iron Barbs. It takes advantage of teams without solid Water-type resists, usually relying on Slowking or Ferrothorn, with its strong STAB moves, speed tier, above-average bulk and defensive typing, and pivoting ability utilizing U-turn and other pivots. It also has an amazing matchup against hyper offense. Its signature move Surging Strikes is able to break Focus Sash and strong priority in banded Aqua Jet lets it revenge kill faster sweepers like Volcarona or weakened Hawlucha. Even in the presence of physically defensive Water-types like Toxapex and Slowbro, Urshifu-R can lure and pivot on these with little risk, bringing in a teammate for free.

Urshifu-R's rise in the past week or two due to its ability to break through or pivot on the most common offensive and defensive cores in this meta merit a rise on the viability rankings to B at least.

 

[BitBitio]

i mean to be fair nidoking always run lo because of sheer force so it would do more damage then analytic starmie and the opponent would have to outspeed for anayltic to work (or switch but the opp will probably go for a res). while starmie can run lo to i think it gets chipped hard and having to recover when dipping to 50 sucks because it can give a fast strong mon like zerorao or any scarfer to come in free but thats what i think

Well first of all, this post is pretty uninformed- I was not at all stating that Starmie is better than Nidoking, because it outright isn’t. What I was doing was making a comparison as to what the merits of Starmie are over Nidoking to give it a niche.
Second, your wording is very confusing to me- I think it’s pretty simple. You bring Starmie in via a pivot or a double on a Pokémon is forces out, and predict the opponent. This is a basic aspect of wallbreaking- you must make predictions. One such prediction is guessing that an opponent will bring in their Ferrothorn to take the Hydro Pump, and you instead Recover up to continue the crusade. This is part of why Knock Off and Uturn are such powerful moves in the meta- they ease prediction yet offer valuable reward for using them.
Lastly- Starmie absolutely has offensive counterplay. All offensive threats fear revenge killers. This isn’t a valid point because if any given Pokémon wasn’t viable due to the existence of a reliable means of revenge killing, then no Pokémon in OU would be viable.
Again, I’m not asking to propel Starmie to S. I was supporting a nom to a modest C+, where threats that are similarly niche but usable like Starmie reside. There you go. Sorry if I sounded rude or offensive to anyone.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Would like to make a few noms despite not being known to play SS anywhere relevant.

Rises:

Tornadus-Therian: A+ --> S (agree): ausma's post above mine says everything I would've said here but I got lazy.

Dragapult: A --> A+: Dragapult's offensive value and decent glue-style resists for bulky offense are both incredible assets in the metagame right now, with status'd Hex being pretty terrifying and Specs Shadow Ball being pretty scary as well (especially with resists being U-Turned on and abused by the incoming mon). With Rillaboom and Volcarona starting to uptick even harder than before, the resists it provides are very appreciated. The fact it's also so fast and acts as great Speed control for things like chipped Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Garchomp, and weakened Tornadus-T makes it even easier to just toss this mon on to many teams. Is also the best mon to answer Kyurem that isn't DD upon coming in from a Teleport or sack, which is amazing with Kyurem on the rise as well. Weavile becoming more popular doesn't really help but forcing CB sets to either switch or go for Shard is good for forced position advancing makes up for this though. All of these traits make it very much as influential and important as Heatran and Toxapex in terms of prepping for it in the builder and in-game, which speaks for it deserving a spot over stuff like Hydreigon.

Rillaboom: A --> A+: CB Grassy Glide has become one of the most respected and prepared for moves in the entire tier, and Rillaboom has forced the metagame to evolve due to its influence, which many mons in A can't say they do on their own. However, Rilla is still very prominent even in game despite all the prep for it, like where rain is often applying Zapdos+Ferro or Torn+Ferro at bare minimum just to stay safe vs it or Tangrowth and Corv on the uptick to check it. Rillaboom bringing Terrain to mons like Heatran and Dragapult, which would otherwise not be able to heal without Leftovers is very important since they often utilize this healing to upkeep defensive integrity for the team, showing Rillaboom has some good defensive utility, even if indirectly. I could see it calming down once the meta fully adapts, but A+ is where it should be at this meta stage. Also Knock and or Zone, which are both great right now (more on Zone later), make even its checks get crippled.

Aegislash: B --> B+: Being as reliable a Kyurem switch-in, NP Tornadus-T lacking Heat Wave or Knock, as well as a perfect Tapu Lele answer make Aegislash's defensive value in this metagame more apparent now more than ever. Being able to take and even scout for any non-Knock Off attack from Choiced Kartana and Rillaboom are also amazing traits for bulky offensive teams (especially since you can't Zone trap this one). The coverage is also terrific, with Ghost STAB speaking for itself, but Close Combat and potentially Flash Cannon also pose a major threat to many team archetypes and makes for a great 3 atks set. Toxic can even be used if expecting a matchup with Mandibuzz and to more permantly cripple Lando and Hydreigon. Meta trends are going very well for it and it has some versitility in its kit atm, I can see it making the A ranks, but imo baby steps are good here.

Magnezone: B --> B+ or A-: Zone has been surging in OST and SPL, mainly cause it dominates Ferro and Corv, who are both on the uptick to handle Rillaboom, Kartana, etc. Think a lot of meta trends are favorable to it, mainly its best abusers and partners being so common and good while stuff like Excadrill has toned down a bit. We've seen a good amount of variation for different checks, like Toxic over Sub on Press sets, Specs sets to abuse Lando-T-only Elec resist teams, among others. The defensive utility it provides shouldn't be ignored either, taking stuff like Ice moves from Kyurem and CB Weavile, taking Grassy Glides, and even potentially trapping Kart if it's CB post SS or Leaf Blade. B+ is likely better for now, but A- idt is that unfair a placement either with how consistent Zone has been.

Weavile: B -->B+: Lots of SPL and OST usage, mainly SD sets but CB sets are also very strong. The power and Speed for this metagame are great, since you threaten all the Tornadus+Ground cores that are so commonplace atm. It's also not totally worthless defensively, taking any one unboosted Dragapult, Kyurem, or Tornadus-T hit and scares out slightly chipped Rilla, Chomp, and Pult with Ice Shard. There have even been variations on the SD set, like talah's Wide Lens Triple Axel set, which shows there could be a ton of potential we haven't even explored yet. B+ seems good for now.

Zapdos-Galar: C+ --> B-: Easily the one I'll have to explain the most since it's not considered a great mon and doesn't see much use, but I've built and played with this thing a lot, and gotta say it's not too shabby. Not amazing by a long shot, but easily has more value than shit like Celesteela and Rotom-H. The STAB combo alongside Stomping Tantrum only really leaves Zapdos as a great switch-in if you get the predictions right. While Zapdos-K is absolutely awful for it, since even U-Turn pivoting is risky, matchups, where it isn't there, can give this mon a lot of room to do some damage and or get kills. U-Turn lets you even punish the forced switches, reducing the need to predict in the early-game (further abused with Future Sight). Plus, it's one of the very few physical attackers Lando can't blanket check, which is good in a tier where Lefties Lando has become more and more crutched on handle physical attackers. Acting as an ok Rillaboom and Lando check on offense also gives some defensive niche that other mons strictly meant to wallbreak like Crawdaunt lack. The Speed leaves a bit to be desired for stuff like Pult, Weavile, Torn, and Zera, but it's still decent and outspeeds mons like Kyurem, Rillaboom, and Tapu Lele, which are all very good and very threatening. I'm willing to elaborate more in another post if there's any traction gained here, but yea.

Drops:

Excadrill: A- --> B+: The rise of Corv, Rilla, Hippo, Zap, and especially defensive Lando have really hurt Excadrill and make it not as valued in the builder as of recent. Being a Steel that can't take Kyurem STAB also sucks pretty hard. Being able to spin, counter Koko, check, Clef, and act as Sand Speed control all still make it pretty alright, but it's just hard to fit and justify atm.

Slowking-Galar: A- --> B+: Glowking is still pretty good but imo A- is overrating it just a bit when comparing it to more consistent mons like Slowking, Blissey, and Hippowdon. Slowking and Blissey check many of the same mons while retaining momentum with Teleport rather than sacrificing it. It's still a pretty good mon but it fits better with stuff like Scizor and Melmetal, who are on the rise and just sometimes awkward to fit respectively.

Latios: B+--> B: This thing feels really weird to fit since no Mystical Fire means Ferro, Sciz, and Corv while no Aura Sphere leaves you boned against Heatran, Bisharp, and Tyranitar. Plus, a lot of competition from Dragapult, Hydreigon, and Kyurem really sucks for it since they provide way more offensive and even defensive utility and beat a lot more offensively (especially if Latios doesn't have Zone support).

Maybe I'll post again in the future but those are my thoughts on potential rises and drops.

 

[Arishem]

A- --> B+

Aside from being a nice Pult answer. This mon isn't great rn, I don't like how easy it is to wear down throughout a match in comparison to other Defoggers. Special Wallbreakers like Kyurem and Tapu Lele, alongside Electric types like Zeraora and Koko gaining usage really hurts this thing as well.

 

[alkazoth]

and

: A and A+ --> S
Won't go too in depth about Torn since ausma explained everything I wanted to say in her post above, but Pult seriously needs a rise. Ever since its release, Pult's always carefully treaded the line between what's busted and what's not. You could make an argument that Pult's actually been busted this entire time, but it was never ban or testworthy because it wasn't unhealthy. After the bunny bans, one of the former queens of home OU has come to reclaim her throne, and is arguably the best mon in the tier, only competing with Lando for that #1 best mon in the tier spot. Specs Pult lacks any real defensive counterplay outside of Blissey, and its godlike speed ensures it will always get an attack out on any mon before they can attack back. The set I find the most dangerous is its Boots Hex set. Pult can freely toss around Twave to para anything and Uturns way too easily, keeping momentum and chipping away at defensive mons who could otherwise withstand Hex. This mon is a meta-defining force whose inclusion on any team makes it better. Give this mon a raise please.

: B --> B+ or A-
After trying out Weav for a few days I can safely say that this mon is hella underrated and is thankfully starting to get the recognition it deserves. Weav's speed tier of 125 allows it to outspeed tons of common offensive threats, the main one being Torn, a mon who is a blessing to naturally outspeed. Weav no longer suffers from WBP (Walled by Pex) Syndrome due to Future Sight support and Pex starting to run more spdef sets. Futureport Weav is busted, since Pex gets sacked by FSight if it decides to stay in, and no other mon can switch into either of these 2, since a smart player might predict a Tran switch in and go for Low Kick, which is an OHKO from Band Weav. SD Weav's also been picking up steam, being able to get to +2 as the opp switches and claiming a mon every time. So glad one of my favorite mons is finally starting to shine in OU again.

Slowking-Galar: A- --> B+: Glowking is still pretty good but imo A- is overrating it just a bit when comparing it to more consistent mons like Slowking, Blissey, and Hippowdon. Slowking and Blissey check many of the same mons while retaining momentum with Teleport rather than sacrificing it. It's still a pretty good mon but it fits better with stuff like Scizor and Melmetal, who are on the rise and just sometimes awkward to fit respectively.

Disagree. Glowking's way more consistent than both Hippo and Blissey since it isn't passive and actually offensively pressures the opponent. Glowking's actually not an easy mon to switch in to, since it eats hits and forces a switch, and has base 110 spat with a very wide movepool, so it's able to wear down a check pretty easily. Even mons like Lando, Mandi, and Kyu hate switching in to an Sbomb since Glowking loves fishing for poisons. About Kyu, Vest Glowking actually checks it unlike Slowking, because it can take a Draco and Ep and get an Sbomb off in the process, and Specs Kyu just doesn't like getting poisoned. Not to mention NP Glowking, a mon who can break a portion of the opp's team with ease after Tran's been defeated and do it again later thanks to Regen. Glowking's perfectly fine at A-, and is definitely a better option than both Bliss and Hippo (especially Hippo, since it doesn't really do anything anymore).

 

[Asena]

Some more support for to C+ based off a straightforward cleaner set I’ve been using:

Nihilego @ Power Herb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 80 Def / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Meteor Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Grass Knot
- Psyshock

Remove priority users and chip steels before bringing this out. You can handle a variety of special attackers in a pinch, whether forcing out Torn or setting up on specs Pult. Recent meta trends have been favorable for Nihilego, with Magearna being gone and less Melmetal/Excadrill there are fewer hard stops to your sweep that need to be chipped down or removed. Corviknight and Heatran being common steels is almost preferable because of their neutrality to Meteor Beam. Scizor picking up isn’t great, but defensive sets don’t OHKO with BP so you can attempt scouting it. Same for Rillaboom if you can knock it off and keep Rocks off the field. I run it with Spikes and Knock Off support, it might be interesting behind screens as well if priority is a concern. To me it seems like it’d be right at home in C+, definitely better than stuff like Blacephalon and Celesteela for example.

A bunch of additional paragraphs for those interested

I’ve had reasonable success with this mon in the mid ladder (1700s). At +1 Spe you’ll outrun neutral-natured max speed Regieleki, and at +2 you’ll safely outrun scarf Dragapult. I’d much rather have one of the last two moves than Power Gem, because in my experience, most things that you’d want Power Gem for can’t do much damage to you anyways. Knock Off / Corrosive Gas both seem interesting though.

Torn-T, Corv (unless running Iron Head), Mandi, Kyurem (unless running Earth Power), Skarm, Volc (Psychic from offensive does 50% max) are all safe to go for an itemless Meteor Beam on, and being at +2 SpA is also helpful for cleaning up afterwards. GK is the strongest option vs Excadrill, Ttar, Hippo, Swampert, Gastrodon, Suicune, and Urshifu-R. If you don’t want to use your herb, it’s also decent for chip on Lando-T, Garchomp, and Melmetal. Psyshock hits Nidoking, does the most damage to Dragapult if you’ve already used up your herb, and lets you work around Pex / Glowking / Blissey when combined with Meteor Beam boosts. Breaking through Blissey that play too passively and let me get to +3 is very satisfying.

Defensively, the special bulk and resistances can come in handy. For example, max SpA Hydreigon can’t OHKO with Earth Power unless it’s modest or LO, same for Heatran. LO Alakazam’s Psychic also fails to OHKO. Specs Draco from Dragapult does 55-65%. Non-twave MG Clef lets you mash Meteor Beam for like 10% on Moonblast. Corv’s BB does 32% max. Tapu Koko’s tbolt only does 38% max. Not gonna go through everything, but you get the idea. There are plenty of opportunities to set up if you’re willing to commit to it.

On the flip side, there is also a -lot- that can threaten Nihilego out. You can’t hit any steel-type for SE damage, meaning the only way you can break through them is with Meteor Beam. Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Kartana, and Excadrill are the biggest offenders here due to their additional resistances, and they also carry STAB to easily OHKO in return. Another huge issue is physical priority tearing through Nihilego’s paper-thin Def stat for easy revenge KOs. Crawdaunt obviously murders you, but so does LO/Band Rilla and any offensive Scizor. Kartana is also a big threat, as you need to save the herb to OHKO with Meteor Beam and will get outsped before boosts.

All this is to say two things:
1) You need to pay close attention to when you use up the herb, and will struggle if the opening shot hits the wrong mark. Without the SpA boost, Nihilego is too weak to break through much. And without saving the SpA boost, there’s no way to outspeed threats like Dragapult and Kartana while also having an attack to threaten them.
2) Prioritize chip damage. SpDef Heatran and Corviknight both take above 50% from Meteor Beam. Scarf Lando-T dies outright and defensive only needs 15-20% prior damage. Toxapex can’t switch into Meteor Beam while also surviving the follow-up Psyshock, but is worth being mindful of due to Regenerator shenanigans. I enjoy running Ferro with Knock Off and Spikes to help in this category, especially considering the mons that want to switch into it. Also, fun fact, Adamant Rillaboom only has a ~20% chance to OHKO with Grassy Glide after rocks if you’ve removed its item!

 

[TailGlowVM]

B- to C+ or C: Blaziken has been hopelessly powercrept and is barely viable in this metagame. It's completely walled by defensive Landorus-T, Toxapex, Slowbro, Tapu Fini, and Dragonite, it's far from the fastest Pokemon in the tier at +1 falling short of every viable Choice Scarf user and speed boosting Pokemon, and it has almost no safe setup opportunity at all:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 52.4 - 61.7% - 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 54.4 - 63.7% - guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 65.1 - 77% - guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 47.1 - 55.8% - 77.3% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 43.8 - 51.8% - 9% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)

Blaziken will get 1-2 kills at most before dying with recoil from the only spammable attack it has in this meta.

Does it fit in B- with rain, and Buzzwole which can still check all the physical attackers in the A ranks? Blaziken has come full circle and is reduced to a small niche as a matchup fish like in its first two generations. The C ranks are clearly a more suitable place for such niche Pokemon. I'm pretty certain Blaziken will never be good in this metagame, or any future generation of OU.

 

[Obsidian297]

Rillaboom: A --> A+: CB Grassy Glide has become one of the most respected and prepared for moves in the entire tier, and Rillaboom has forced the metagame to evolve due to its influence, which many mons in A can't say they do on their own. However, Rilla is still very prominent even in game despite all the prep for it, like where rain is often applying Zapdos+Ferro or Torn+Ferro at bare minimum just to stay safe vs it or Tangrowth and Corv on the uptick to check it. Rillaboom bringing Terrain to mons like Heatran and Dragapult, which would otherwise not be able to heal without Leftovers is very important since they often utilize this healing to upkeep defensive integrity for the team, showing Rillaboom has some good defensive utility, even if indirectly. I could see it calming down once the meta fully adapts, but A+ is where it should be at this meta stage. Also Knock and or Zone, which are both great right now (more on Zone later), make even its checks get crippled.

This should have happened earlier tbh, the impact of Rilla is almost unparalleled in the tier

B- to C+ or C: Blaziken has been hopelessly powercrept and is barely viable in this metagame. It's completely walled by defensive Landorus-T, Toxapex, Slowbro, Tapu Fini, and Dragonite, it's far from the fastest Pokemon in the tier at +1 falling short of every viable Choice Scarf user and speed boosting Pokemon, and it has almost no safe setup opportunity at all:

Agreed, I tried using Blaziken and it's so matchup reliant as well as having an absolutely insane case of 4MSS, you want Protect, SD, Blitz, CC, EQ and ThunderPunch, and that's excluding niche options like Poison Jab, U-Turn and Work Up+ Solar Beam. It's terrible.

My quick noms

to S

This mon has great success in SPL, it's been great on webs, it fits on almost every team and it's so goddamn good at breaking stall. There isn't anything more to it really

to C

Has anyone used this? Rain teams are strapped for slots as is, with the obligatory and - core so they aren't dismantled by other offense, they also commonly use and :urshifu-rapid: as wall breakers/cleaners. They have one free slot, and is really the best choice there? are all great options that offer more to rain teams than could ever hope to.

to C

There are better rockers, there are better sweepers and there are better walls. He loses to and is superior due to its higher speed, attack and better typing overall.

Also, no ? I'm still gathering replays, so I can't nom him, but if I could, I'd nom him at least C or even B-