Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Spxxk]

Just wanted to say that a really agree with Barraskewda and Pelipper going from B+ ---> A- , especially Barraskewda because of how damn powerful its flip turn and liquidation are.

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 420-494 (108.8 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 368-434 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

On top of this, with a relatively powerful STAB Scald/Hurricane in rain, Pelipper can be great late-game to clean up and is pretty easy to keep alive with U-Turn and a defensive investment.

 

[NeonJolteonWasUsed]

I'm gonna use this as a fantastic segway to get away from Eleki because I ABSOLUTELY agree with this point.

C+ > B-/B.

Through my experimentation with SubSeedPunch Bulu + BandTar, I believe C+ is CRIMINAL for Bulu. Its defensive utility allows it to forget about offensive SD sets that Rilla likes to use, and instead opt for a SubSeed approach. (Now I'm not saying the Focus Punch is required, it's funny as hell, but CC would prolly be better in most scenarios.) Anything that would normally check Bulu gets majorly inconvenienced by Substitute with the exception of Infiltrator Pult. Zapdos that want to outspeed and KO with Hurricane? Sorry bud you'll have to break the sub, taking a leech seed in the process just to watch Bulu swap out next turn. Heatran want to KO? CC/Focus Punch behind Sub will ruin your entire day bucko. Any stall mon trying to status you to nerf the Bulu? Sorry I'm already behind sub, and you'll have to break that if you want any chance, and I can't guarantee that I wont just put the sub back up because I just recover so much health from Leech Seed + Leftovers + Grassy Terrain + Horn Leech.

And even if you wanted to run offensive, Bulu has some very good coverage to deter checks from coming in. Close Combat, Horn Leech, Stone Edge, Megahorn, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Zen Headbutt, Wood Hammer, and Superpower. All fantastic moves that Bulu can use to handle different things. It also has great utility moves like Roar/Whirlwind, Toxic, Taunt, Synthesis, the aforementioned Leech Seed and Substitute, and even oddball picks like Disable and Screens. Setup moves Swords Dance and Bulk Up also bring some big help to the table.

Here's my funny SubSeedPunch set, but you can absolutely swap out Focus Punch for CC if you don't want to use the Focus Punch:

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Atk / 132 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Focus Punch / Close Combat
- Horn Leech

124 Atk OHKO's Offensive Heatran with Focus Punch after rocks chip, and 132+ SpDef lives 2 Shadow Balls from Specs Pult after rocks chip. I highly recommend giving Bulu more love than it gets, because I personally consider it on par with Boom, but trying to get it up to B+ immediately wouldn't be agreed on, so a push into the lower Bs is what I'm aiming for.

C+ -> B-/B

Wanna also Piggyback on this and say I agree with a Bulu rise 100%
in this thread we PRAISE the Guardian of Ula'Ula.
its Choice Band Set is a breaker that straight up refuses to die, combine that with the rise of Bulky Grounds like Hippo and Gastro that Bulu takes advantage of, and this thing is likely to not only smash through defensive cores, but also outlast would be checks by spamming Horn Leech.
Its defensive profile, has also become more valuable in more recent times, with WashTom, Crawdaunt, and even Pads Shifu, all being very easy for Bulu to come in on (with the exception of WashTom, who Bulu can still sponge hits from if needed.) and threaten back, and even something it's supposed to check offensively has began to run coverage for it less (well, not specifically coverage FOR Bulu, but, coverage-that-just-so-happens-to-also-hit-Bulu.) Specifically Garchomp more often running Aqua Tail over Fire Fang.
One thing I do heavily disagree with is that Bulu is on par with Rilla. While yes it can set itself apart from Rilla, to say it's on the same level as Rillaboom, the Pokémon who made its SD Set almost entirely obsolete, I just don't agree with.
Generally, I do think its choice band set very much enjoys what's going on in the current metagame, and is able to succeed where Rilla's Choice Band set failed, by virtue of its stronger defensive profile giving it a good deal of switch in oppertunities on offensive mons, and being a thorn in bulkier team's sides to try and get rid of thanks to Horn Leech, and its noticeably more offensively inclined coverage options make it a lot more annoying to consistently shut down. Unless your opponent has something like Buzzwole or Glowking (both of which Bulu could potentially pack coverage for anyway, mind you.)
and this is all without mentioning its potential to reprise the Grass Spam Strategy from Gen 7, since its coverage, is again, far better for helping Kartana overwhelm their checks, it may take some experimenting, but I can 100% see Bulu + Kart making a huge comeback.

Edit: Slipped my mind Bulu has Stone Edge while Rilla doesn't for a sec. Scratch the "SD Obsolete thing" it is on par with Rilla.

 

[Moyashi]

One thing I do heavily disagree with is that Bulu is on par with Rilla. While yes it can set itself apart from Rilla, to say it's on the same level as Rillaboom, the Pokémon who made its SD Set almost entirely obsolete, I just don't agree with.

Being honest I have never understood the "Rilla is better" mentality. I don't find Rilla's SD sets to be strictly better than Bulu, who can tech specifically with items to beat its flying checks, and doesn't give on much power. Beyond that, Bulu has much greater set possibility thanks to the wide movepool, and its typing affording it more opportunities. And honestly on that note,

C+ -> B-/B

There are a lot of defensive staples that Bulu can take advantage of currently, and it can be threatening to teams with these pokemon while not compromising on defense either thanks to the typing. With Urshifu running PPads now, it can very easily check it as well other mons like Zeraora, offensive Garchomp and Ferrothorn lacking steel stab. Bulu being able to take advantage of rising grounds Gastrodon and Hippo as well is a nice trait. Substitute sets are especially nice for this purpose, but I think classic offensive sets have merit too since its choice of stab in horn leech makes it a wallbreaker that can last longer throughout a game.

Bulu is a highly underrated beast in this metagame and many recent changes are favorable to it. It deserves at least a small rise to start.

 

[wut]

these bulu sets are heat
i also agree with the rise
edit: after using bulu for a while i have realized it is way too niche
still good but maybe not B

 

[GermanDude5]

I`m new here but I`d like to nominate Incineroar.

Unranked -> C or C+

I have had a lot, admittedly low-ladder, success with this Incineroar set:

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Careful Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 60 Spe
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Parting Shot
- Will-O-Wisp

Incineroar functions as a blanket check to many of the most dangerous metagame threats in a faster paced team-composition.
Its usually able to take any two hits from non-banded Melmetal and can will-o-wisp or flare blitz if it comes in at full health.

-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- not a KO
-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 216-254 (51.3 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can take 3 Triple Axel hits from Weavile and can OHKO back.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- approx. 4HKO

Even Low Kick is unlikely to 2HKO:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

Additionally its a realiable Counter to Blacephalon.
Both Scarf:
252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 89-105 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 30.4% chance to 4HKO

And Specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 110-129 (27.9 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

It can usually KO Ferrothorn from full:
0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 348-412 (98.8 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

It lives 2 Sacred Swords form Scarf-Kartana:
-1 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It also has some favourable matchups against lesser used Pokemon like Arctozolt (Lives 2 Boltbeaks and OHKOs with Flare Blitz), Aegislash (Lives 2 Modest Close Combats and can Will-O-Wisp through Kings Shield), Rillaboom and Victini. Additionally the typing allows it to switch into Choice-Locked Ghost and Psychic Moves from Dragapult, Tapu Lele and the like.

Incineroar has just been a Pokemon which has often presented itself in my Teambuilder as a Check/Counter to a combination of dangerous Metagame threats which no other one Pokemon can reliably do.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I`m new here but I`d like to nominate Incineroar.

Unranked -> C or C+

I have had a lot, admittedly low-ladder, success with this Incineroar set:

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Careful Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 60 Spe
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Parting Shot
- Will-O-Wisp

Incineroar functions as a blanket check to many of the most dangerous metagame threats in a faster paced team-composition.
Its usually able to take any two hits from non-banded Melmetal and can will-o-wisp or flare blitz if it comes in at full health.

-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- not a KO
-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 216-254 (51.3 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can take 3 Triple Axel hits from Weavile and can OHKO back.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- approx. 4HKO

Even Low Kick is unlikely to 2HKO:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

Additionally its a realiable Counter to Blacephalon.
Both Scarf:
252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 89-105 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 30.4% chance to 4HKO

And Specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 110-129 (27.9 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

It can usually KO Ferrothorn from full:
0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 348-412 (98.8 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

It lives 2 Sacred Swords form Scarf-Kartana:
-1 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It also has some favourable matchups against lesser used Pokemon like Arctozolt (Lives 2 Boltbeaks and OHKOs with Flare Blitz), Aegislash (Lives 2 Modest Close Combats and can Will-O-Wisp through Kings Shield), Rillaboom and Victini. Additionally the typing allows it to switch into Choice-Locked Ghost and Psychic Moves from Dragapult, Tapu Lele and the like.

Incineroar has just been a Pokemon which has often presented itself in my Teambuilder as a Check/Counter to a combination of dangerous Metagame threats which no other one Pokemon can reliably do.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Heatran: 154-183 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

at this point use sp. def tran... incin is a shaky check at best and if you need such a blace counter use hydreigon or blissey. Knock off hinders its ability to deal with threats especially the lack of recovery which makes it susceptible to being worn down. While incin can KO ferro that is never going to happen in practice and its just gonna spam leech + spikes + knock and fuck u over

Sure it can live 2 sacred swords from kart but tran can also pivot into kart and threaten flame body burns which tbh if incin is ur kart check the team is wrong in some way shape or form.

 

[Jonbot]

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Careful Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 60 Spe
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Parting Shot
- Will-O-Wisp

This ev spread uses 4 too many evs but considering your analysis it probably was a typo

 

[Jonbot]

if you need such a blace counter use hydreigon or blissey.

Both blissey and hydreigon are highly vulnerable to weavile, melmetal and, in blissey’s case, kartana, allowing incin to distinguish itself somewhat from the two.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Heatran: 154-183 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Heatran: 376-443 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yes this calc is assuming is flame body, but if it is flash fire, then heatran loses its ability to threaten weavile and kart with burns, further giving incin a legitimate niche as a check to all 3.

However you are fully correct in your comment on incin’s issue with knock off. If you do switch into ferro and ohko it with flare blitz, you will likely take a knock on the switch which will cripple it, take recoil from flare blitz, iron barbs and potentially rocky helmet chip, basically making it useless. Incin’s rain mu is also absolutely horrendous as it loses the ability to threat ferro and gets destroyed by every water type abuser. Sand is equally as annoying as the chip damage further weakens it and excadrill/cb ttar can easily ko it. As a niche check to a few mons, it’s ok, but it doesn’t have anything else going for it so I think Incineroar should remain unranked.

 

[NeonJolteonWasUsed]

I`m new here but I`d like to nominate Incineroar.

Unranked -> C or C+

I have had a lot, admittedly low-ladder, success with this Incineroar set:

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Careful Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 60 Spe
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Parting Shot
- Will-O-Wisp

Incineroar functions as a blanket check to many of the most dangerous metagame threats in a faster paced team-composition.
Its usually able to take any two hits from non-banded Melmetal and can will-o-wisp or flare blitz if it comes in at full health.

-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- not a KO
-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 216-254 (51.3 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can take 3 Triple Axel hits from Weavile and can OHKO back.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- approx. 4HKO

Even Low Kick is unlikely to 2HKO:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

Additionally its a realiable Counter to Blacephalon.
Both Scarf:
252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 89-105 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 30.4% chance to 4HKO

And Specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 110-129 (27.9 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

It can usually KO Ferrothorn from full:
0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 348-412 (98.8 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

It lives 2 Sacred Swords form Scarf-Kartana:
-1 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Incineroar: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It also has some favourable matchups against lesser used Pokemon like Arctozolt (Lives 2 Boltbeaks and OHKOs with Flare Blitz), Aegislash (Lives 2 Modest Close Combats and can Will-O-Wisp through Kings Shield), Rillaboom and Victini. Additionally the typing allows it to switch into Choice-Locked Ghost and Psychic Moves from Dragapult, Tapu Lele and the like.

Incineroar has just been a Pokemon which has often presented itself in my Teambuilder as a Check/Counter to a combination of dangerous Metagame threats which no other one Pokemon can reliably do.

UR -> Stay Unranked

I'm probably not the first to do so, but I disagree with this heavily. This hypothetical niche of Incin's only really works on paper, and even then it's shaky, most of what it's supposed to check has means of beating it to the point it's essentially dead without outright KOing it. Melmetal is very likely to nail it with Superpower, Earthquake, or even Toxic on the switch if they observe that it is your only means of counterplay, and Weavile doesn't even need to Low Kick, just hitting it with Knock Off once, is enough to make it useless for the rest of the game, making Incineroar a "check" reliant on what it's supposed to check not using its most spammable move, The only things it can really half check are Blacephalon or Pult, who barely even need to try to wear down Incin, just breaking through it with Sheer Damage, as even Blacephalon just firing off a Specs Overheat essentially leaves Incineroar incapacitated as a Blacephalon check, and Pult can just outright 2HKO it with Draco Meteor after extremely minimal chip damage.

Proof

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Incineroar: 355-420 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO (and Arceus Forbid it's Modest, where the 2HKO is almost Garunteed)

Not only that, but to bounce off of what Jonbot's said, Its matchups into the top weathers are absolutely laughable. Being total deadweight into Rain, Sand, and Struggling to even keep its footing VS Hail, and even Sun can give it trouble due to Ground Coverage being on a Majority of its abusers.
This wouldn't suck as bad if Incineroar had competition that also matched up poorly into a majority of weathers (even though it'd still be outclassed), but it gets worse when you realize that if you absolutely need a Blanket Blacephalon Answer, Hydreigon and Tyranitar are right there, perfectly viable, much harder for Blacephalon to play around, and not too difficult to just slap on a team, with both having much more beneficial matchups into opposing weathers, Tyranitar especially, who sets up a weather of their own, shutting down the opponent's abusers, and enabling your's, and Hydreigon can straight up sit on most Sun/Rain Abusers and use them as setup fodder, whilst being able to pressure Sand very effectively with its offensive coverage.
As is, I just can't see a reason to run Incineroar when other Dark Types do the same job it would, to much better effect, while not being total deadweight into such common matchups.

 

[wut]

these bulu sets are heat
i also agree with the rise
edit: after using bulu for a while i have realized it is way too niche
still good but maybe not B

yh so essentially the set only really works against specific threats (ex: heatran)

 

[Rogue786]

The thing is though, how often do Heatran run Flame Body? Typically they run Flash Fire to switch into fire types. I don't really agree with Incineroar rising however-several people have already explained why it just doesn't answer threats that well in practice.

 

[Colin]

The thing is though, how often do Heatran run Flame Body? Typically they run Flash Fire to switch into fire types. I don't really agree with Incineroar rising however-several people have already explained why it just doesn't answer threats that well in practice.

Quite often actually; P def sets can run it to make knocking it a bigger risk for Weavile and friends, and even offensive sets can enjoy running it in certain scenarios; for example when partnered with garchomp and/or DD pult on screens offense, its one of the only splashable things on such builds that can both set rocks and punish triple axel. It might not be the default, but its plenty useful when its talents are needed.

 

[Eeveeto]

The Incineroar set posted is bad, but Restalk with Stabs can work in Stall teams if you have enough Defoggers and ways to make Fini's and Koko's life miserable (since those 2 Mons are the main reason Restalk Mons are hard to use). It's not outclassed by neither Hydreigon, nor Tran, it just fits in way less teams than those 2. It needs lots of support, but it does provide things no other Mon does. Take that into account when deciding to rank it or not, and consider it as a Restalk Wall, not as a bad pivot for Balance.

 

[Lord Xen III]

The Incineroar set posted is bad, but Restalk with Stabs can work in Stall teams if you have enough Defoggers and ways to make Fini's and Koko's life miserable (since those 2 Mons are the main reason Restalk Mons are hard to use). It's not outclassed by neither Hydreigon, nor Tran, it just fits in way less teams than those 2. It needs lots of support, but it does provide things no other Mon does. Take that into account when deciding to rank it or not, and consider it as a Restalk Wall, not as a bad pivot for Balance.

What does it do for stall that the conventional stall mons don't do ?

 

[Eeveeto]

What does it do for stall that the conventional stall mons don't do ?

-Intimidate.
-Status absorber.
-Knock user.
-Weavile check (+1 Low Kick doesn't OHKO unless LO).
-Blacephalon check (Trick only option).
-Immune to Psychic without being weak to Moonblast, so more room to fight vs Lele. Also Future Sight counterplay.
-Bisharp check (+3 LO Knock never OHKOs).
-Soft Kartana check (shouldn't be your only Kartana check, but does the job).
-Soft Rillaboom check (same as above).
-Victini check.
-Non Bug Buzz Volcarona check.
-Aegislash check (can take a CC if mispredicts, Toxic is absorbed by Rest, Stabs are resisted).
-Scizor check (somehow there are Stalls that are 6-0d by this, especially those that run Hazeless Pex , non Heat Wave Zap and non WW, non Iron Defense Skarm/Corv)
-Potentially a win condition if instead of Flare Blitz you run Bulk Up (not recommending this, but on some teams it is an option)

There are lots of Mons that share some of these traits (and bring more, so they are often better) but none that have all of them at the same time, which means that Incineroar despite having important flaws and needing the right partners to succeed, it's not outclassed by anything and has a legitimate niche. Enough to get it ranked? I am not the one to decide.

 

[Dreadfury]

OLT's underway, so I figured I'd make a few noms related to it based on some present discussion:

from B+ --> A- or even A

Fat SD Rilla was putting in a lot of work late in WCoP and the mon's hot streak has continued into early OLT, since bulky SD sets have insane amounts of longevity while providing teammates with passive recovery while the classic fast LO+SD sets can still put in work by supporting the likes of Kart/Lucha.

It's seen a lot of success. Like, a lot. I was somewhat in favor of just rising it to A- during WCoP since it was ubiquitous back then, but with this more recent usage I'd definitely argue it makes a strong case for even a rise to A. Le monke's comeback is unreal.

from B --> B+

Blaziken is one of the tier's purest offensive mons and, as is typical of offensive mons in early cycles of OLT, it's been used to quite a bit of laddering success. Many teams can't stand up to Blaziken all that well, and as such it's often finding itself in a position to sweep with relative ease early on.

from B --> B+

It's been seeing a bit of success, mostly on specific Stalls using its Imprison set but also with a few other variants since it's just so customizable. Block+Imprison is arguably the best set on this front, though, since it does something that is both valuable and almost entirely unique. The OLT thread saw some discussion about potential offensive Mew variants, too, and they seem promising, but I feel that the aforementioned place it has on Stall is what warrants a rise to B+.

Maybe Sand ( and ) could also rise? It's been seen more than any other weather higher up on the ladder and is shockingly consistent whilst also being quite diverse apart from this duo. At the same time, however, A- isn't bad whatsoever and I'm not entirely sure if this duo is quite A-worthy yet, but I figured I'd say my piece anyway and possibly start some discussion.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

I did run Incineroar a while ago, but with max HP and atk stats. The problem with Incineroar is that I'm not sure, first of all, if defensive spreads are worth it on this mon given how it has no reliable recovery, how it needs to run boots, therefore making it very vulnerable to Knock Off, and Flare Blitz putting a lot of strain on its health. The fact that literally every offensive mon known to man outspeeds this thing does it no favours either. I guess you can creep Ttar but you would also need to make room for Low Kick and that pokemon still hits hard even without its Choice Band.

I feel like Incineroar tries to do some role compression. It checks Weavile, Blace, Rilla and Aegislash pretty well, can hit pretty hard back and has utility options in Knock Off and even Parting Shot to try to prepare something like double dance Chomp. The problem however is that it's just too slow to stay healthy throughout the match, needs defog support itself, and even though Flare Blitz does a lot of dmg, this move is surprisingly easy to take advantage of with helmets, random Heatran switch-ins, Ferro can literally take Incineroar with him when he dies from a Flare Blitz after it has done its job.

I'm not sure if Incineroar should be ranked, it just feels like it's not enough to put in work reliably

 

[Turtleye_]

Gonna do something I haven't done in a long time and make a nom

A- --> B+
I haven't seen a zeraora - at least the Bulk Up variant, which I assume is the most common - put in work at all recently. Lando & Chomp are everywhere and stop it dead in it's tracks, and Koko doing so well makes it harder to fit on a team over koko imo. The rise of bulky Boomer also hurts Zera a lot, being unable to threaten it with CC, and even at +1 it has a very, very low chance to 2HKO Boomer.

It does threaten TTar and Drill, being able to OHKO both of them with cc if rocks are up, although drill smokes zera if sand is running.

Zera still has merit for being the 2nd fastest unboosted mon in the tier and being able to keep things like Pult and Weavile in check (Although it can't OHKO Pult without some chip) and provides an electric immunity alongside knock support which is good role compression if you need those things. However, there's other good Knock users like Clef, Torn, and Kart, that provide more stuff and aren't hardstopped by the most common mon in the tier. Besides Knock, Zera just doesn't really force much progress untill the rest of its team has weakened the opposing team enough where zera can clean up with it's high natural speed.

I think the Toxic set is a bit more useable than the Bulk Up set because it cripples its main 2 counters (Lando & Chomp) more, but you have to give up either Bulk Up, Knock or CC for it, limiting your options to clean up lategame.

Looking at what's in B+ rank (Arctozolt, Boomer, Gapdos), Zera fits in better with these threats than things like Blace, Dnite and TTar.

 

[Moyashi]

A couple of noms while I wait for things to download.

B+ -> A-
Okay okay fine I'll give this thing some credit. It's gotten into a better position lately and has shown to be at least more consistent than the last year had been for it. Bulky sets are actually good and it can operate as a better terrain setter with this set, making grassy terrain more reliable. A bit. It's definitely better than it has been for a while. I do think some of its flaws are still there and prominent enough, and many of its best checks are more popular than ever that I don't think it should go any higher than A-, but a small rise is at least something I can agree with.

B -> B+
Y'know it's weird how large a difference of meta changes can make. When pex, fini and slowbro were more popular, Blaziken was really hard to use and inconsistent. Now of course said checks still exist and are there in the meta but with several teams gravitating to waters like Gastrodon and Washtom, it doesn't have it as hard. This does kinda make it a little MU fishy, but hard to deny it is quite threatening atm. Put it this way, a well played Blaziken is one of the scariest things to run into. Especially if you aren't fully prepped for it.

(I'm also biased and think pivot sets are under explored options but that's not too relevant atm).

A- -> B+
Kinda echoing some sentiments about Zeraora but I really don't find it that great atm. It feels kinda awkward at times, either not hitting hard enough or not doing enough in general. The resurgence of Gastrodon and to a lesser extent Hippo, it makes it tough for Zera to be as helpful. Now sure toxic sets can alleviate this somewhat but you do give up something crucial to run it and it always feels like some other match up gets worsened no matter what you choose to replace for toxic.

That, and Tapu Koko feels like the better fast electric pivot. Nature's Madness anyone?

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Nominating MR CRABS! (Crawdaunt)
B- -> B or B+

After playing both cycle one and two, and getting number one on ladder around 2150+, crawdaunt is a really, really good againts the current meta trends, not just stall.

In OLT i would expect a lot more stall than usual since it is a consistent team that from my small experience on playing stall requires more of a play pattern than plays (tho making plays is still an option) as you would always play passively to win most of the time. Crawdaunt of course, destroys any stall team lacking in buzzwole, itemless tangrowth, poliwrath, and random fast pokemon. Yesterday, towards the end of cycle two, around 5-2 hour before deadline there were 6 or maybe 7 people using stall, 4 of which were using a variation of The Ox Stall whether it be nasty plot glowking or thunder wave blissey and the others were using the cresselia skarm quag stall and skooma using their cteam stall. During this time i was able to get from 1800 to 2100 very quickly just by sniping the stall players as with lead hazard mew + crawdaunt, theres nothing stall can do about it, this alone can honestly be a good enough reason to make daunt rise due to its unrivalled stall breaking potential, but.

There has also been a rise in other threats such as SD Protect Blaziken, Rotom Wash, Gastrodon, Sand in general, Slow Bulky rillaboom, Weavile, Blacephalon. Koko + Fat balance and Clefable + Melm/Heatran core. All of these cores get destroyed by crawdaunt, be it SD or Choice band.
-You can rkill ken with jet
-You outspeed 0 speed rotom (not the most common, but its there)
-You beat gastrodon
-Most of the waters nowadays loses to daunt with less fini in the mix
-You have a good mu vs sand
-You have a good mu vs stall
-You break most of the balance core lacking in rillaboom/fini/shifu/buzzwole
-You check weavile and blace

an example of which is this Xray bulky rillaboom + blaziken BO that is extremely popular at the moment. where at first glance, crawdaunt doesnt seem to be a threat, but it can get in on things like slowbro and get a free setup/knock on something, and can revenge kill the threatening blaziken. now you may see rillaboom, torn and garchomp and think that they beat crawdaunt. no, they do not, torn cant really touch you, chomp's EQ is weaken by the grassy terrain and you can do mind games on the rillaboom like knocking on SD.

now, lets talk about sand. There has been a lot of new sand and theyre rising in usage which is great since i do think sand was pretty underrated, two of the most popular sands are these two https://pokepast.es/a1c5387406394d75 https://pokepast.es/fb9b188c5c22759a both of which dont exactly have the greatest switch into daunt, cause you can get in freely on ferro/ttar/pult sball/drill or glowking/ttar/clef/drill and either set up to nuke the upcoming switchin or just attack. you have to do a merry dance around to just be able to not get 6-0d by this mon.


Againts fat and balance.... well.
Here are some replays to show why its really good. (there are more but i didnt save them or just too lazy to find)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638058699
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1637909481
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1636605134
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638036926
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1629180485
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1627904619

The stalls on those replays are among the two most used one which is the Ox Stall and the Baboboy Stall. Not much to say, crawdaunt is really just the mon you think of when you say "stallbreaker" maybe behind heatran.

so yea, in this meta, crawdaunt has very good matchup againts most teams, with the rise of blaziken, gastrodon, slowbro, clef, you have more chances to get in and sweep. Yes the rising of rillaboom definetly hurts it but thats just one bad match up in a sea of great matchup.

ive gotten top one on ladder by mostly spamming crawdaunt with some other teams on the side, proof of it is....

with my last game being this vs HO and daunt dominating.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638141415

So yea, this mon underrated. Rise it up

 

[Ctann]

I have completely reversed opinion on our favourite appliance

and the reason is simply because the metagame shifted so aggressively in favour of needing water/ice/ground/flying resists and this washing machine can cover it with flying colours.

I would like to propose a new standard rotom-wash set:


Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 48 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Toxic
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split

48 speed let’s you our speed all neutral speed azumarill, aegislash, primarina and Crawdaunt, it also beats 0 investment landorus. You can run 56 speed to beat all neutral Tyranitar, tho usually those that run max speed use jolly

200 SpD and a calm nature allows you to check tornadus, volcanion and weird sets like specs pelliper. The defense investment is minimal, tho it’s enough for most dragonite and Melmetal.

the choice of toxic over will o wisp is mainly for gastrodon, garchomp and other dead ends for volt switch. Will o wisp is good if you prefer to hit melmetal.

volt switch is so handy in the current meta, with the need to pivot in and out of the high power water and flying type moves becoming imperative. It also allows you to actually have a semi viable answer to heatran… who really should be banned to ubers.

this pivot checks a very long list of Pokémon, can be used to absorb knock offs, and generally harasses everything. I think it’s a solid contender for A+ right now. Mostly due to the increase in zapdos, tornadus, heatran, volcanion, crawdaunt, Melmetal and gastrodon. Which this can switch into. It also likes the increase of rillaboom, because with Rillaboom comes higher usage of flying types.

-



I would like to nominate heatran to Ubers, and if that’s not possible, S+. This Pokémon is ridiculous. I’ve been spamming it with mixed partners running sub par sets, and heatran is legitimately the most ridiculously good Pokémon in OU. Unless you’re running 5x types that don’t care for heatran, it will put in a lot of work.

the biggest reason is simple: heatran does it’s purpose really well, thanks to magma storm doing ridiculous damage. It can completely swing back a game in your favour if you’re good at preserving its opportunities to fit in a magma storm. With minimal knock off and helmet support, this thing can force important Pokémon into KO range.

 

[Ctann]

Nominating MR CRABS! (Crawdaunt)
B- -> B or B+

After playing both cycle one and two, and getting number one on ladder around 2150+, crawdaunt is a really, really good againts the current meta trends, not just stall.

In OLT i would expect a lot more stall than usual since it is a consistent team that from my small experience on playing stall requires more of a play pattern than plays (tho making plays is still an option) as you would always play passively to win most of the time. Crawdaunt of course, destroys any stall team lacking in buzzwole, itemless tangrowth, poliwrath, and random fast pokemon. Yesterday, towards the end of cycle two, around 5-2 hour before deadline there were 6 or maybe 7 people using stall, 4 of which were using a variation of The Ox Stall whether it be nasty plot glowking or thunder wave blissey and the others were using the cresselia skarm quag stall and skooma using their cteam stall. During this time i was able to get from 1800 to 2100 very quickly just by sniping the stall players as with lead hazard mew + crawdaunt, theres nothing stall can do about it, this alone can honestly be a good enough reason to make daunt rise due to its unrivalled stall breaking potential, but.

There has also been a rise in other threats such as SD Protect Blaziken, Rotom Wash, Gastrodon, Sand in general, Slow Bulky rillaboom, Weavile, Blacephalon. Koko + Fat balance and Clefable + Melm/Heatran core. All of these cores get destroyed by crawdaunt, be it SD or Choice band.
-You can rkill ken with jet
-You outspeed 0 speed rotom (not the most common, but its there)
-You beat gastrodon
-Most of the waters nowadays loses to daunt with less fini in the mix
-You have a good mu vs sand
-You have a good mu vs stall
-You break most of the balance core lacking in rillaboom/fini/shifu/buzzwole
-You check weavile and blace

an example of which is this Xray bulky rillaboom + blaziken BO that is extremely popular at the moment. where at first glance, crawdaunt doesnt seem to be a threat, but it can get in on things like slowbro and get a free setup/knock on something, and can revenge kill the threatening blaziken. now you may see rillaboom, torn and garchomp and think that they beat crawdaunt. no, they do not, torn cant really touch you, chomp's EQ is weaken by the grassy terrain and you can do mind games on the rillaboom like knocking on SD.

now, lets talk about sand. There has been a lot of new sand and theyre rising in usage which is great since i do think sand was pretty underrated, two of the most popular sands are these two https://pokepast.es/a1c5387406394d75 https://pokepast.es/fb9b188c5c22759a both of which dont exactly have the greatest switch into daunt, cause you can get in freely on ferro/ttar/pult sball/drill or glowking/ttar/clef/drill and either set up to nuke the upcoming switchin or just attack. you have to do a merry dance around to just be able to not get 6-0d by this mon.


Againts fat and balance.... well.
Here are some replays to show why its really good. (there are more but i didnt save them or just too lazy to find)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638058699
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1637909481
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1636605134
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638036926
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1629180485
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1627904619

The stalls on those replays are among the two most used one which is the Ox Stall and the Baboboy Stall. Not much to say, crawdaunt is really just the mon you think of when you say "stallbreaker" maybe behind heatran.

so yea, in this meta, crawdaunt has very good matchup againts most teams, with the rise of blaziken, gastrodon, slowbro, clef, you have more chances to get in and sweep. Yes the rising of rillaboom definetly hurts it but thats just one bad match up in a sea of great matchup.

ive gotten top one on ladder by mostly spamming crawdaunt with some other teams on the side, proof of it is....
View attachment 446818

with my last game being this vs HO and daunt dominating.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1638141415

So yea, this mon underrated. Rise it up

there is a very important synergy with crawdaunt, and that is Pokémon that dislike fini/urshifu.

I was using it with a rocky helmet tornadus, and the ability to knock off prtective pads from urshifu, and then switch into the u turn and chip it with helmet basically puts urshifu into a lose-lose, as it’s now sub 50%, and needs to fear u turning. This is so valuable if you’re stacking dark STAB with Tyranitar or Weavile, both of which actually synergies with crawdaunt, despite the shared weakness.

my favourite thing about crawdaunt is it can force those protective pads switch ins from Melmetal/urshifu, and in Finis case, it can deny it recovery.

the crawdaunt/tornadus synergy was so ridiculously fun, I basically auto won against teams that relied on Slowking, glowking, heatran, clefable, corviknight, bisharp or Blissey as their primary tornadus switch in, whilst stall teams that spammed toxapex + 2nd regenerator had to eventually sack something once crawdaunt was +2. Yes you read that list right.. the only problematic tornadus switch ins were zapdos and rotom-wash. As these both outsped crawdaunt.

crawdaunt also makes a good MU vs Weavile/Bisharp leads, which are trendy now. If you’re running crawdaunt + tornadus, chances are you can bait a turn 1 Weavile lead, and then force out the fini/urshifu to lose their items from the 2nd turn!!!! That’s a big auto-win condition against a lot of team structures that rely on those emergency crawdaunt switch ins.

crab hammer has ridiculous power, if you’re clever with trying to whittle away at Buzzwole and clefable, putting big pressure on them or taunting, crawdaunt can simply KO with just a crab hammer, the high crit rate means you can win a game earlier than you should 12.5% of the time

 

[Freerobuxman]

I have completely reversed opinion on our favourite appliance

and the reason is simply because the metagame shifted so aggressively in favour of needing water/ice/ground/flying resists and this washing machine can cover it with flying colours.

I would like to propose a new standard rotom-wash set:


Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 48 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Toxic
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split

48 speed let’s you our speed all neutral speed azumarill, aegislash, primarina and Crawdaunt, it also beats 0 investment landorus. You can run 56 speed to beat all neutral Tyranitar, tho usually those that run max speed use jolly

200 SpD and a calm nature allows you to check tornadus, volcanion and weird sets like specs pelliper. The defense investment is minimal, tho it’s enough for most dragonite and Melmetal.

the choice of toxic over will o wisp is mainly for gastrodon, garchomp and other dead ends for volt switch. Will o wisp is good if you prefer to hit melmetal.

volt switch is so handy in the current meta, with the need to pivot in and out of the high power water and flying type moves becoming imperative. It also allows you to actually have a semi viable answer to heatran… who really should be banned to ubers.

this pivot checks a very long list of Pokémon, can be used to absorb knock offs, and generally harasses everything. I think it’s a solid contender for A+ right now. Mostly due to the increase in zapdos, tornadus, heatran, volcanion, crawdaunt, Melmetal and gastrodon. Which this can switch into. It also likes the increase of rillaboom, because with Rillaboom comes higher usage of flying types.

-



I would like to nominate heatran to Ubers, and if that’s not possible, S+. This Pokémon is ridiculous. I’ve been spamming it with mixed partners running sub par sets, and heatran is legitimately the most ridiculously good Pokémon in OU. Unless you’re running 5x types that don’t care for heatran, it will put in a lot of work.

the biggest reason is simple: heatran does it’s purpose really well, thanks to magma storm doing ridiculous damage. It can completely swing back a game in your favour if you’re good at preserving its opportunities to fit in a magma storm. With minimal knock off and helmet support, this thing can force important Pokémon into KO range.

I'd still keep willo on rotom-w since it does punish most physical attackers switching in, which also includes volt switch absorbers like garchomp. Heatran is amazing, but I wouldn't call it too overpowered in OU since it doesn't have reliable recovery, it's not very fast, and there are enough checks and counters for it to keep heatran from being banned to ubers

 

[TheOG292]

I would like to nominate heatran to Ubers, and if that’s not possible, S+. This Pokémon is ridiculous. I’ve been spamming it with mixed partners running sub par sets, and heatran is legitimately the most ridiculously good Pokémon in OU. Unless you’re running 5x types that don’t care for heatran, it will put in a lot of work.

the biggest reason is simple: heatran does it’s purpose really well, thanks to magma storm doing ridiculous damage. It can completely swing back a game in your favour if you’re good at preserving its opportunities to fit in a magma storm. With minimal knock off and helmet support, this thing can force important Pokémon into KO range.
[/QUOTE]

I’m no expert in the OU field, but there are 3 things that holds Heatran back.
a) It has no reliable recovery outside of Leftys
b) It has to choose between hard punishing and crippling Weavile, Melmetal, and Urshifu, and blanketing Volcarona.

Right now, I’d say that Flame Body is better because right now, finding reliable Weavile answers that can also deter Melmetal is hard to find, but you still lose a lot from running Flame Body, like hard-walling choice-locked Blacephalons and Volcaronas.

c) The overwhelming presence of Ground types and Ground type coverage

Many people agree that Landorus-Therian is the best mon in the tier. It is a great Stealth Rocks user that fulfills so many defensive roles with its typing and good enough bulk. It also has a very powerful Earthquake that easily OHKOs Heatran and is fast enough to outspeed it with enough investment. Another great mon is Garchomp, which can run both a Swords Dance set and a tank set, both of which can tank a Magma Storm decently well. Obviously, none of these are permanent because they both lack reliable recovery, but in the case of Offensive Garchomp, it can get set up for a sweep and put your team on the back foot (if the opponent’s Weavile is taken care of), and for Landorus, it can either set up rocks, get a teammate in, or dish back damage of its own.

Here are some calcs for Heatran damage onto these mons:
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Landorus-Therian: 150-177 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 93-110 (26 - 30.8%) -- 17.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage

Super-effective coverage is also very prevalent, as seen on Buzzwole (Close Combat), Melmetal (Superpower, or in more niche cases, Earthquake), Kartana (Sacred Sword), and ironically enough, Weavile (Low Kick on Banded sets), probably the biggest appeal to using Heatran right now.
Calcs for these cases:

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (Adamant always OHKOes regardless of Stealth Rocks)
252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-346 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
116 Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 408-480 (105.6 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ Atk Buzzwole Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 408-480 (105.6 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Scarf)
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 360-424 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Don’t get me wrong, Heatran is still one of the best Pokémon in the metagame since it can cripple all of Weavile, Melmetal, and deter choice-locked Kartanas in one slot and can run a great offensive set with Scarf Eruption to catch opponents off guard. Still, I wouldn’t call it ban-worthy since there are ways to play around Heatran.

Sorry for the long discussion, just wanted to relay my opinions on the measure.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

I would like to nominate heatran to Ubers, and if that’s not possible, S+. This Pokémon is ridiculous. I’ve been spamming it with mixed partners running sub par sets, and heatran is legitimately the most ridiculously good Pokémon in OU. Unless you’re running 5x types that don’t care for heatran, it will put in a lot of work.

the biggest reason is simple: heatran does it’s purpose really well, thanks to magma storm doing ridiculous damage. It can completely swing back a game in your favour if you’re good at preserving its opportunities to fit in a magma storm. With minimal knock off and helmet support, this thing can force important Pokémon into KO range.

One thing I will say is that Eq is more popular than superpower on melm afaik.