Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[viet noa]

The first point is true but frankly with pokemon like Heatran and Victini being a thing, its usually not that difficult to find the room to hard swap something in and get some damage going. Torkoal not being able to pivot is definitely a downside, but I think you're overselling how much it matters.

Second point is true but I do think it's unfair to discount Torkoal's utility in the possibility to have Rocks+Spin, absurd bulk ( 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 242-289 (70.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, There are neutral pokemon who take more than this), lava plume's sheer obnoxiousness, Body press' ability to snipe Tyranitar, etc. It's an incredibly varied setter and I've been surprised by its movepool and sheer bulk time and time again.

third point is also true on paper but then you think of the list of pokemon Sludge bomb hits, and the list is pretty much just Lati twins, Kyurem somewhat harder (which is fine because its so easy for Sun to maintain rocks), and a few random midgrounds. There really isn't a lot of pokemon you strictly lose to because of Sludge Bomb being so much harder to fit., EP+Weather Ball+Giga+Growth is great coverage.

this one feels really random? weakening Urshifu-r is fairly relevant I'd say. Not like Heatran is a non threat to Rain either bc of Toxic and the possibility of rocks.

This ones more of a case of differing gameplan than anything, Rain's sweepers kind of need that pivoting because they can't even dream of matching the destructive power of a Growth Venu, especially Kingdra. Plenty of good Sun breakers offer pivoting, most notably Darm and Victini, and defensive pieces like Mandibuzz can do the same. I wouldn't say one is that much more linear than the other really.

Same deal as what I said before honestly, There's more variety yea but Rain wishes it could get a sweeper as devastating as Venusaur, and there's still quite a few pokemon that benefit from Fire coverage being boosted (Hydreigon, Garchomp) or that just appreciate the raw power sun allows them to have (Victini, Heatran, Darm, Volcarona, even Blacephalon)

This is just not really true, Rain this gen is definitely fairly reliant on its weather being up, most of the pokemon on the archetype are either severely crippled without rain, like Thunder users, or flat out just really really bad without that support, like Barraskewda. I wouldn't say its that far off from Sun really.

in fact, I'd go as far to say that and are worth a raise to C+ or and are worth a drop to C+ (i think rains C lol but i wont push my luck), these playstyles are not an entire 2 subranks apart in viability and if anything, i consider Sun better

that’s fair enough. i still feel like rain is better due to pelipper being better than torkoal & there being a wider variety of rain threats, but i can understand the point that venusaur is a massive threat & there’s still other solid sun breakers like heatran and victini. agree to disagree?

 

[Jokler]

I completely agree that Sun is decent. People really undersell it. The Sheer Power of Fire types like Tran, Vic, Darm, Entei, Volcanion in Sun and the devastating factor of Chlorophyll grass types (basically Venu, but also Shiftry on very few occasions) should not be underestimated.

Firstly, Sun is ridiculously powerful, even the bulkiest Regen waters melt under Sun boosted choiced V creates, Eruptions, Flare Blitzs, what have you. Tran is only safe switch in but it dies to one Ground move from any of them except Vic.

Secondly, Venu is a very devastating mon capable of blowing through entire teams. It also compliments the fire types very nicely, he completely stuffs the water types and can also EP Tran.

Thirdly, the sun members all resist Glide which allows them to keep ploughing through instead of taking the defensive against Rilla.

Lastly, Torkoal is also a bit underrated. It's huge Physical bulk can allow you to take on extremely prominent mons like Kart, Bish, Weavile etc. Rocks, Spin, Lava Plume, Press all are good useful moves too. And Koal does have some form of as well longevity as it can rest up against Pex, Ferro. Corvi, Clef, and other defensive mons almost indefinite amounts of time. Not as good as Roost but still not exactly on borrowed time.


I still don't think Sun is better than rain but it's not such a huge difference as people make it out to be.




Also as to Kommo O, I think it has it's own advantages over Chomp, particularly the Shadow Ball immunity and Grass, Water and Dark resistances, access to Taunt for Rocks sets etc and a Huge set up movepool. Chomp is overall a better mon but Kommo O should not be just ignored.

 

[Niftyyyy]

It has one true counter and that one true counter is urshifu-R as it bypasses protect which makes magma storm trapping significantly more difficult. regardless, I don't think having one counter makes it unworthy of S, especially when despite getting killed by urshifu-r, it walls clefable, cripples most stall mons with taunt, and most importantly walls dragapult and volcorna.
it also walls non EQ melmetal/melmetal locked into double iron bash, and also OHKO's the choice band set while taking a solid chunk out of assault vest sets and nearly OHKO'ing the leftovers set. you CAN try scarfed eruption set to OHKO leftovers melmetal but it still wont OHKO assault vest melmetal and erruption is quite unreliable.
Also it OHKO's kart even on the defensive sets and on the defensive sets it can and will take an unboosted sacred sword from kart. Also can break sash due to magma storm trapping damage. Magma storm heavily damages lando-T on the switch even on defensive sets, and protect magma storm trapping can do a bit more damage before heatran switches into a ground resist/immune, and your probably running at least one on your team because there are alot of good flying types on the VR as well as hydregion having levitate and you can have your own lando-t switch into the EQ. RIlla is also pretty good RN, and heatran walls non focus blast kyruem or forces out focus blast specs (or scarf if people actually use that for some reason) kyruem locked into freeze dry, ice beam, or flash cannon. Obviously heatran hates blissey due to magma storms very low PP, so teamates that can easily KO blissey like sacred sword kart are appreciated, as kart with sacred sword 2HKO's the physdef set and EASILY ohko's the spdef set. heatran itself can also eat up blissey albeit slower then kart with taunt and magma storm trapping, this can be helpful for kart against the physdef sets as for kart to not get crippled by thunder wave. Obviously kart may seem to limit creativity, but despite taking a longer time heatran CAN ko blissey on its own and kart is A on the VR. Also, moistshifu doesn't like to switch into magma storm, although it still OHKO's heatran. Here however, kart can help us, again. we can switch into slowking and then teleport into kart if shifu stays in and back into heatran if it switches out. then shifu will almost be KO'd if it switches in again, and if it suicides or an OPPOSING slowking teleports into shifu rapid strike we'll repeat again and shifu will be forced to stay in if it wants to keep doing things. I also forgot to mention that if lando-T or heatran has stealth rock up, shifu wont even be able to switch in again into magma storm or a predict epower can 2HKO shifu rapid strike making slowking able to force out shifu or threaten it with kart, so if another predict earth power occurs then shifu will be KO'd rarley without rocks and and WILL be ohko'd with rocks up, just proving how important stealth rock is. with all these factors I'd agree with hydregionthechild that heatran is indeed S tier material

You really need to lurk more dude. You are polluting the thread with uninformed opinions.

I support Slowking to drop to A+. It can be very difficult for archetypes using Slowking to deal with electrics, Pult, grass spam and dark spam and therefore forces these builds to be too linear for an S rank pokemon. I think this view is supported by the low sSlowking usage in the World Cup compared to the other S ranks Lando t and Dragapult where usage is sky high.

Toxapex usage is also on the rise at the expense of Slowking usage. This is partly because Slowking is not very good at dealing with the rise of Urshifu-R when it takes so much from u-turn and banded surging strikes.

 

[viet noa]

Lastly, despite your callous words of this just being a game, there is a lot of propaganda and groupthink on this site despite it just being a game. If you know why they is the case let me know I think it’s weird too

in my opinion, groupthink is kinda like when millions of people mindlessly believe the earth is flat, not when there’s a general consensus on a pokémon’s viability

even then, the viability rankings here are still contested and far from being widely agreed upon. moving up slowking to s tier has been hotly debated, many people have discussed where to place pokémon like heatran and rillaboom and garchomp, as well as how prominent certain playstyles like weather are in the current meta.

is it healthy to challenge the common opinion, and to form your own informed thoughts? of course! does that mean that nobody can call you out when you call the staff “historically mid” and “so sensitive” while you literally don’t elaborate on over half of your suggested changes to the vr? not really.

so just out of curiosity, i’d be interested in you elaborating why gengar, thundurus, thundurus-t, toxtricity, zarude, mamoswine, mew, jirachi, and terrakion should rise significantly. and i’m also curious why you think bisharp, dragonite, kartana, rotom-wash, and slowking should drastically fall down the vr.

i’m sorry if i’m coming off as rude, just wanted to express how i feel.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

You really need to lurk more dude. You are polluting the thread with uninformed opinions.

I support Slowking to drop to A+. It can be very difficult for archetypes using Slowking to deal with electrics, Pult, grass spam and dark spam and therefore forces these builds to be too linear for an S rank pokemon. I think this view is supported by the low sSlowking usage in the World Cup compared to the other S ranks Lando t and Dragapult where usage is sky high.

Toxapex usage is also on the rise at the expense of Slowking usage. This is partly because Slowking is not very good at dealing with the rise of Urshifu-R when it takes so much from u-turn and banded surging strikes.

banded surging strikes only does like 24% to slowking and slowking runs regenerator to recover most damage on the teleport. also toxapex will be instantly forced out by taunt.

 

[Pikachu_fan4820]

C- to higher

For one of, if not the best screen setter in the tier this ranking is a crime. It provides great utility for ho teams with taunt to stop defog and comes with the added bonus of walling infiltrator pult, one of the biggest threats to offensive teams. Unlike koko, it essentially guarantees screens up thanks to prankster. With koko as a screens setter you are vulnerable to scarf lando and fast knock off/trick, problems grimm doesn't have. I've been running a lot of screens ho lately to great success, which led to my Blaziken post, and have consistently found this mon to be the best screen setting option on these teams. It doesn't belong below shit like tr and is definitely better than webs and fringe weather mons.

A+ to S

I don't get how this isn't S tier if Slowking is, imo this is the third best mon in the tier by far. Offers amazing offensive presence as well as a fantastic defensive typing and ability.

B- to C+

I know people have been talking about a rise, but this mon is almost completely outclassed by fini and comparing it to other mons in B- have convinced me that a drop is in order. Latios, Blace, Blaze, Moltres, and Rain all feel like they offer a unique and potent presence in the metagame that isn't replicated by other mons, whereas I find Prim is simply to slow and inconsistent to pull off a offensive set, and every other set is outclassed by fini.

I also feel like Latios is a bit underrated rn and might deserve a rise from the B- ranks along with Blaze, but I'll have to experiment with it a bit more.

1: at best grimm should rise to C as ninetales-alola can set 2 screens up in one turn using aurora veil and can also nasty plot attack, which is something grimm shouldn't do

2: I think I've made it clear that I agree with heatran to S

3: no thoughts on prim, haven't really tried it out yet.

edit: just gonna make some noms real quick:

Hawlucha: B -> at best B-
Terrain teams aren't exactly running wild rn and ALWAYS having to carry a terrain setter on teams with this guy limits creativity. hawlucha is alot less useful when hippo is decently high on the VR right now, which typically carries whirlwind. this is because the boost is one time out and once lucha switches the speed boost from unburden is over.

Regieleki: C -> C-/UR
yes this does warrant a little bit of usage as fini is decent and as pex goes up but also warrants less usage as king goes down. Idk if excadrill is going up, if it is slap eleki onto UR and if not, C-.

Mew: C+ -> at least B
this is cool because you can do so many things with it, you can set hazards, you can run tech, you can stall, you can run physical sweeper, you can run special sweeper, you can basically fill any role in with mew, and I'd say it warrants a rise.

 

[Ctann]

Heatran is a definitive S tier pokemon, it provides rocks for a team, a bunch of useful resistances, it is such a pressure on teambuilding since you need to know "what can get a free turn out of this and absolutely crumble my team from there". You cannot have a team that cannot deal with it, It is the best wallbreaker in the tier due the combination of Magma Storm, Taunt, and Toxic makes Heatran almost impossible to deal with defensively, as it is able to overwhelm its checks throughout the game. It has such a useful typing being quad resistance to fairy, steel, and a total immunity to fire allowing it to check volcarona, wisp pult, CM clefable, scizor. It has no true counter due to it being able to break them through the course of the game with toxic, taunt, magma storm trapping and stealth rocks.

it’s fully understandable that heatran is top tier, tho S rank is more for the best in class.

if viability ranks are purely about performance, then heatran is more easily played around and less easily thrown on a team than landorus/Garchomp/dragapult.

Slowking is an odd member of S rank (my opinion is that it’s A) so I’m not including it with the others.

not to say heatran isn’t great. In fact I’d assume it’s literally the best non-S Pokémon there is and only clefable is comparable! It’s just that the utility is brings used to be more difficult to deal with.

Whereas now with the uptrend of fire resists and STAB ground, water and fighting types, it’s less annoying. It’s more easy than ever before to punish a heatran being used, and that’s where i see it most different to the others.

Slight aside: Slowking usage can also be very easily punished, and that’s the biggest reason I’m confused about it’s S rank inclusion. As it’s too easy to play around and very predictable compared to the others.

even something like Conkeldurr on your team can disincentivise a heatran from coming in on your koko u-turn.

 

[Bananers]

banded surging strikes only does like 24% to slowking and slowking runs regenerator to recover most damage on the teleport. also toxapex will be instantly forced out by taunt.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking on a critical hit: 165-198 (41.8 - 50.2%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Not to be rude, but like Nifty said you need to lurk more and learn about the meta. I can tell you're new, from this thread and the NatDex thread, which is ok, but please learn a bit more about the meta.

Also, side note, Urshifu can U-Turn as well
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here is a nom so this post isn't fluff.

Heatran A+ -> S
Heatran is for sure S tier like many others have said. Magma Storm has extremely limited switch-ins and allows Heatran to manhandle defensive teams. The few Pokemon that can switch into Magma Storm and actually threaten Heatran are Garchomp, which lacks reliable recovery, Shed Shell Toxapex, which needs to run an item that is only useful against Heatran, Tapu Fini which again lacks reliable recovery, and Dragonite which is really the only true answer to Heatran imo. Let's not forget the fact it gets Toxic, Stealth Rock, Taunt, and a whole lot of other utility moves. It is also like the only thing stopping Volcarona which is extremely valuable. All of this makes it deserve S tier in my opinion, it is centralizing, versatile, and checks one of the best Pokemon in the tier, along with others I haven't mentioned.

 

[julian113]

1: at best grimm should rise to C as ninetales-alola can set 2 screens up in one turn using aurora veil and can also nasty plot attack, which is something grimm shouldn't do

I experimented with alolan ninetales and i found the hail constantly chipping my own mons into priority range. The importance of taunt cannot be overstated, especially on ho teams with no hazard control, since it can't stop hazards from getting up. Nasty plot is almost never run, so that point doesn't make sense. The only benefit of alolan ninetales on screens is to get them both up in one turn, yet it often has more difficulty getting them up than koko or grimm because of less speed/no prankster. I would go as far to say as regieleki is a better screens setter than ninetales, since i can provide momentum with explosion to prevent defog aswell.

 

[Ctann]

B- to C+

I know people have been talking about a rise, but this mon is almost completely outclassed by fini and comparing it to other mons in B- have convinced me that a drop is in order. Latios, Blace, Blaze, Moltres, and Rain all feel like they offer a unique and potent presence in the metagame that isn't replicated by other mons, whereas I find Prim is simply to slow and inconsistent to pull off a offensive set, and every other set is outclassed by fini.

I also feel like Latios is a bit underrated rn and might deserve a rise from the B- ranks along with Blaze, but I'll have to experiment with it a bit more.

my assumption that viability is linked to how easy/hard it is to find “counter play” to a threat.

primarina doesn’t have much counterplay, once it’s in, it’s usually pulling something down with it. I can write a list of why each top OU Pokémon can’t effectively deal with it, but I shortened it to replays and explanations why the ones that resist either STAB whilst being at least neutral to the other, are not effective checks.

comparable slow and bulky attackers like crawdaunt/bisharp/conkeldurr have a string of Pokémon that can wear it due to contact moves, or tank a hit and threaten back. Also most defensive or bulky moms that can tank a hit from either STAB can seriously threaten them back.

non contact, decent power and high probability of secondary effects, make her breaking set very valuable. It also helps that defensive switch ins that can somewhat deal with it, like regenerator cores, often do not carry the move pool to threaten back.

she doesn’t need support at all, and even offers handy switch in value. So that’s why I assumed the A rank would be more fitting than B. Pokémon like Blaziken just do not compare.

Update for the Ladder rank

peak rank is now rank 4 @1987 rating, I edited the previous post with a screen shot.

I apologise if my nomination was too controversial.. tho my interpretation of VR being based on performance and non is backed with real examples and real performance. So I didn’t mean to come off as a joke nomination

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1358929763

Another replay against a counter, prim pulls heavy weight weakening two very important defensive pivots.

 

[Totomon]

my assumption that viability is linked to how easy/hard it is to find “counter play” to a threat.

I hard disagree with this statement, the viability of a mon shouldnt be defined by its list of counters/checks or whatever related to that concept, while it does play an important part IMO the viability is also defined by the splashability and versatility of a mon.
Do I have to support this mon to properly function? What weaknesses and opportunity costs am I taking by using it? Do I have many options when using it?

Regarding Prima especifically i am not opposed to a rise to B, but anything higher than that is an overeraction of its capabilities at the end of the day any set that isnt using its offensive capabilities to the fullest has incredible competition from Fini which is very good rn (and that really isnt good for prima) and it still requires a considerable amount of support to work.

Noms I agree with:
B to B+
B+ to B
B to A-
A to A+
B+ to A-/A

 

[Ctann]

I hard disagree with this statement, the viability of a mon shouldnt be defined by its list of counters/checks or whatever related to that concept, while it does play an important part IMO the viability is also defined by the splashability and versatility of a mon.
Do I have to support this mon to properly function? What weaknesses and opportunity costs am I taking by using it? Do I have many options when using it?

Regarding Prima especifically i am not opposed to a rise to B, but anything higher than that is an overeraction of its capabilities at the end of the day any set that isnt using its offensive capabilities to the fullest has incredible competition from Fini which is very good rn (and that really isnt good for prima) and it still requires a considerable amount of support to work.

Noms I agree with:
B to B+
B+ to B
B to A-
A to A+
B+ to A-/A

less about counters/checks , more about “counter play” to it doing it’s job. For example landorus-T can offer excellent counter play to so many Pokémon’s it can’t really check or counter. A Pokémon like Dragapult can do it’s job despite checks or counters because it’s difficult to “play around” it.. etc

to differentiate:

- a specs pull counter is something like blissey

- counter play to specs pult, is using bullet proof Kommo-O (rare threat) to switch in on anything except dragon type moves. Or forces it to revenge you with a dragon type move, so you get a free opportunity with a fairy/steel or a set up type afterwards.

- counter play to specs pult is baiting into a lead position with your team spread and then running a threat that forces it out on turn 1, or teching something unusual like scarf landorus knock off on that turn 1

- counter play to specs pult is baiting a u turn based on match up, and then switching in your rocky helmet tank, now if it comes in on rocks it will fall to Weaviles ice shard or Rillaboom +2 glide, or your scarfer, etc.

- counter play is running a Tyranitar as a means to make it harder for a dragonite to have its multi scale intact. You know Tyranitar can’t counter dragonite, but it makes it’s life harder.

in short, you don’t need counter Pokémon to have a way to counter play a threat.

also I am unsure why everyone compares it to fini, they’re very different, and their viable sets are completely different.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

so just out of curiosity, i’d be interested in you elaborating why gengar, thundurus, thundurus-t, toxtricity, zarude, mamoswine, mew, jirachi, and terrakion should rise significantly. and i’m also curious why you think bisharp, dragonite, kartana, rotom-wash, and slowking should drastically fall down the vr.

Before I respond to this, I’m extremely curious. When has kart ever been a threat to any of your teams. I’m extremely curious. As to why I’m not active enough on here too elaborate on like 12 mons lmaooooo Chile please. If anyone wants to take the reigns on this and elaborate on any of the drops go for it. Just leave me kart, mew and Zarude

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

Before I respond to this, I’m extremely curious. When has kart ever been a threat to any of your teams. I’m extremely curious. As to why I’m not active enough on here too elaborate on like 12 mons lmaooooo Chile please. If anyone wants to take the reigns on this and elaborate on any of the drops go for it. Just leave me kart, mew and Zarude

Not to me, but Synth SD Kart can be quite a threat and can act as a semi defensive tank and able to beat Ferrothorn without BP (it can already do it with Scarf/SD 3 attacks but it dies along with it making it just a 1v1 trade) Just make sure to pair up with something that can handle Melmetal and its golden.

 

[tubitr]

edit: just gonna make some noms real quick:

Hawlucha: B -> at best B-
Terrain teams aren't exactly running wild rn and ALWAYS having to carry a terrain setter on teams with this guy limits creativity. hawlucha is alot less useful when hippo is decently high on the VR right now, which typically carries whirlwind. this is because the boost is one time out and once lucha switches the speed boost from unburden is over.

Hawlucha sets up on hippo for free if it's running taunt, the move helps vs pex too.

Stone edge helps vs zapdos and koko sure but they're easier to wear down than hippo/pex imo.

 

[Ctann]

Before I respond to this, I’m extremely curious. When has kart ever been a threat to any of your teams. I’m extremely curious. As to why I’m not active enough on here too elaborate on like 12 mons lmaooooo Chile please. If anyone wants to take the reigns on this and elaborate on any of the drops go for it. Just leave me kart, mew and Zarude

banded Kartana is currently meta, very good at breaking into offensive teams and loves the Psychics at the top of the usage charts.

Swords dance is slightly out of favour as stall breaking isn’t as mandatory. Scarf paper plane isn’t handy due to limited power.

I don’t support Kartana dropping..



this ebbs and flows based on the popularity of the Pokémon it likes to switch in on. No surprise you support a drop, tho it still pulls weight well.

 

[Faless__]

banded surging strikes only does like 24% to slowking and slowking runs regenerator to recover most damage on the teleport. also toxapex will be instantly forced out by taunt.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No Urshifu runs Taunt barring bad whirlpool sets, we should definitely drop Slowking and rise Pex since the latter has recently gained the edge over it as the better bulky water of the format, due to checking numerous dangerous stuff for balance, namely Urshifu but also stuff like Dragapult and the also very dangerous Weavile if running a mixed defensive spread.
By the way Urshifu R is nowhere near a Heatran counter as it lacks longevity, the only thing that could be considered a counter is like, defensive Dragonite or Gastro/Hippo + Aromatherapy support.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

banded Kartana is currently meta, very good at breaking into offensive teams and loves the Psychics at the top of the usage charts.

Swords dance is slightly out of favour as stall breaking isn’t as mandatory. Scarf paper plane isn’t handy due to limited power.

I don’t support Kartana dropping..



this ebbs and flows based on the popularity of the Pokémon it likes to switch in on. No surprise you support a drop, tho it still pulls weight well.

kart will never be as good as y’all try to make it out to be.Time after time it is consistently, and I repeat, consistently one of the worst performing mons on your teams, and you still will not let it go.

 

[Finchinator]

 

[Ctann]

ah yes becuase ohkoing 70% of the tier is consistently bad

his point isn’t about the potential of Kartana. It’s the performance of it, or specifically, the lack of consistency.

this goes back to previous comments about counter play.. it’s more relevant when playing against people who have experienced many different sets.

kartana is (when compared to other breakers at least) very easy to find counter play for, due to the numerous resists to every attack it has not called knock off, the fact that everything it has makes contact and finally the fact that it loses to most Pokémon that can take at least 1 hit.

Funnily, it can’t even properly switch into resisted special hits unless it’s something like a 0 spA draining kiss.

long story short, Kartana’s performance becomes reliant on getting a few 50/50 decisions right. And that doesn’t make a consistent Pokémon, even tho it has deadly potential.

very very relevant if you’re trying to get consistent performance, Kartana has value tho due to its speed tier catching everything just under adamant Weavile and can act as a clutch switch in to some offensive threats like bisharp, Weavile and landorus. Personally, wouldn’t write it off.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Bruh, finch just blacklisted kartana from discussion. That means not to talk about it

On another note B-> B+ it checks many of the top threats in rillaboom, urshifu-r, zeraora, bisharp, and weavile. It can also pressure them defensively with rocky helmet and force a lot of chip on them as they do not have recovery. Buzzwole can also toxic pokemon that it cannot check and that would want to switch in like tornadus-t, slowbro/slowking, and zapdos, as well as generally putting pokemon on a timer like landorus-t, hippowdown, and non-heal bell dragonite.

 

[Jokler]

I have never seen an actual top tier mon from the tier ever be blacklisted. Is this a first? I have only seen niche mons like Sylveon blacklisted when people are constantly debating whether to include it in the VR or not.

As to it not being a one liner, I also wanted to talk about Swampert. I don't get the Pert hate.
I completely disagree about it falling down in viability as it still performs the same exact role it did and with about the same reliability as it did when it was ranked in the first place. I.e. countering Electrics and Tran. It hasn't gotten worse in this niche nor has this niche become any less useful as Tran is easily top 5 mons and is ridiculously difficult to check and the electrics like Zeraora and Koko are thriving (they mostly don't run Grass Knot).
Tran is one of the most difficult mons to reliably answer in the tier and pretty much defeat almost any mon in the long run. Pert is admittedly not an exception as it also gets chipped by Toxic and Magma Storm but it is still pretty resilient and can switch into Tran a decent no. of times. But the huge point in it's favour is that it turns Tran into momentum each time it comes in which is ridiculously difficult to do and by the time Pert gets sufficiently weakened, Tran's team should have suffered multiple assaults too. It does straight up lose to Nature Power in Grassy but that is more so Tran's ability to be an unparalleled wallbreaker than it's fault and also Tran exclusively would run Nature Power for it and Slowtwins, giving up either Taunt or Toxic which you can take advantage of somewhat. Also it is not nearly as common as the standard set.
Frankly, the narrative of it lacking reliable recovery is overblown out of proportion. It is a Rocks Pivot above anything else. It is not supposed to last forever. It fits on bulky offense teams that want a check to the above mentioned mons and don't want to lose momentum from mons like Hippo. It still checks the aforementioned for quite a long time and gets it's teammates in safely so that they can unleash a counter assault. A Pert coming in on an electric or Tran completely turns the momentum in your team's favour. Pert teams simply don't play the very long games. Even some Lando on specific teams are running SpD now and they take neutral from rocks, have less Special Bulk overall as it don't have an ability weakening opposing moves like the PhysDef variants. It's just about fitting it on the right team. Still if you really, really want some longevity, pair it with Grassy Terrain and it doesn't even get whittled by Toxic Tran. Though it is not necessary.
Another thing I wanted to mention was that it's actually a very reliable rocker and doesn't have a bad matchup against defoggers as someone said above. Defoggers like Zapdos, Mandi, Lando, Bulky Dnite can't hurt it back too bad and they all fear toxic and don't want to get flip turned on either. Corvi is an exception but Pert is slower and can always get momentum with Flip Turn. In my experience and from the games I have seen, Pert generally is able to keep rocks up and it even gets them up easily against the free turns it gets against Tran and electrics.
Lastly another thing to mention here that it is generally difficult to KO from high healths unless using grass moves or freeze dry. Even absurdly powerful moves like Banded Triple Axel, Banded CC from Urshifu, Specs Lele Psychic don't nearly OHKO it so it can also face off against them early game. It also gets it's teammates in safely against bulky CM users like Clef and Fini with a Slow Flip Turn.
I do think running a bit of defense goes a long way. I had calced some time before but a Pert with 403 HP/237 Def/282 SpD still has takes the same, 2HKOes, 3HKOes and 4HKOes from relevant special moves and the defense helps particularly against defoggers and Zeraora.

I understand it's ground type competition is absurd with Lando, Chomp (both being among top 5 mons) and Hippo being absolutely top tier mons but it has it's own very useful niche too.

 

[Finchinator]

I have never seen an actual top tier mon from the tier ever be blacklisted. Is this a first? I have only seen niche mons like Sylveon blacklisted when people are constantly debating whether to include it in the VR or not.

It is a first and it will not be a last at this rate. I have no tolerance for us wasting entire pages on people arguing the same things repeatedly. If you have a point, please bring it up. If you disagree with someone, please respond. This does not mean we should beat talking points to death. There is a midground and it is our duty as posters to notice it. I will use the blacklist liberally and delete posts when necessary in order to assure the thread does not derail. Thousands of people use this thread as a resource and follow the discussion, so I feel it is my duty to not waste their time as a collective.

 

[julian113]

my assumption that viability is linked to how easy/hard it is to find “counter play” to a threat.

primarina doesn’t have much counterplay, once it’s in, it’s usually pulling something down with it. I can write a list of why each top OU Pokémon can’t effectively deal with it, but I shortened it to replays and explanations why the ones that resist either STAB whilst being at least neutral to the other, are not effective checks.

comparable slow and bulky attackers like crawdaunt/bisharp/conkeldurr have a string of Pokémon that can wear it due to contact moves, or tank a hit and threaten back. Also most defensive or bulky moms that can tank a hit from either STAB can seriously threaten them back.

non contact, decent power and high probability of secondary effects, make her breaking set very valuable. It also helps that defensive switch ins that can somewhat deal with it, like regenerator cores, often do not carry the move pool to threaten back.

she doesn’t need support at all, and even offers handy switch in value. So that’s why I assumed the A rank would be more fitting than B. Pokémon like Blaziken just do not compare.

Update for the Ladder rank

peak rank is now rank 4 @1987 rating, I edited the previous post with a screen shot.

I apologise if my nomination was too controversial.. tho my interpretation of VR being based on performance and non is backed with real examples and real performance. So I didn’t mean to come off as a joke nomination

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1358929763

Another replay against a counter, prim pulls heavy weight weakening two very important defensive pivots.

The problem with this argument I see is it would leave mons like cb golurk (a mon I am unironically enjoying btw) in the A ranks, since once it’s in it has no switchins bar mandi. Much like primarina, golurk is a slow powerful breaker that’s extremely hard to switch in to, yet it requires a lot of team support to get in because of its slow speed and relative frailty. Prim also lacks the priority moves that a lot of the other breakers you’ve mentioned have, like aqua jet daunt and mach punch conk. Now I can see the appeal and how prim works, so a drop may not be in order, but I’m definitely opposed to a rise.

Btw I don’t have replays but I wanted to echo the guy who nommed golurk for the vr awhile back in the thread, poltergeist is such a good move to break with.

I have never seen an actual top tier mon from the tier ever be blacklisted. Is this a first? I have only seen niche mons like Sylveon blacklisted when people are constantly debating whether to include it in the VR or not.

As to it not being a one liner, I also wanted to talk about Swampert. I don't get the Pert hate.
I completely disagree about it falling down in viability as it still performs the same exact role it did and with about the same reliability as it did when it was ranked in the first place. I.e. countering Electrics and Tran. It hasn't gotten worse in this niche nor has this niche become any less useful as Tran is easily top 5 mons and is ridiculously difficult to check and the electrics like Zeraora and Koko are thriving (they mostly don't run Grass Knot).
Tran is one of the most difficult mons to reliably answer in the tier and pretty much defeat almost any mon in the long run. Pert is admittedly not an exception as it also gets chipped by Toxic and Magma Storm but it is still pretty resilient and can switch into Tran a decent no. of times. But the huge point in it's favour is that it turns Tran into momentum each time it comes in which is ridiculously difficult to do and by the time Pert gets sufficiently weakened, Tran's team should have suffered multiple assaults too. It does straight up lose to Nature Power in Grassy but that is more so Tran's ability to be an unparalleled wallbreaker than it's fault and also Tran exclusively would run Nature Power for it and Slowtwins, giving up either Taunt or Toxic which you can take advantage of somewhat. Also it is not nearly as common as the standard set.
Frankly, the narrative of it lacking reliable recovery is overblown out of proportion. It is a Rocks Pivot above anything else. It is not supposed to last forever. It fits on bulky offense teams that want a check to the above mentioned mons and don't want to lose momentum from mons like Hippo. It still checks the aforementioned for quite a long time and gets it's teammates in safely so that they can unleash a counter assault. A Pert coming in on an electric or Tran completely turns the momentum in your team's favour. Pert teams simply don't play the very long games. Even some Lando on specific teams are running SpD now and they take neutral from rocks, have less Special Bulk overall as it don't have an ability weakening opposing moves like the PhysDef variants. It's just about fitting it on the right team. Still if you really, really want some longevity, pair it with Grassy Terrain and it doesn't even get whittled by Toxic Tran. Though it is not necessary.
Another thing I wanted to mention was that it's actually a very reliable rocker and doesn't have a bad matchup against defoggers as someone said above. Defoggers like Zapdos, Mandi, Lando, Bulky Dnite can't hurt it back too bad and they all fear toxic and don't want to get flip turned on either. Corvi is an exception but Pert is slower and can always get momentum with Flip Turn. In my experience and from the games I have seen, Pert generally is able to keep rocks up and it even gets them up easily against the free turns it gets against Tran and electrics.
Lastly another thing to mention here that it is generally difficult to KO from high healths unless using grass moves or freeze dry. Even absurdly powerful moves like Banded Triple Axel, Banded CC from Urshifu, Specs Lele Psychic don't nearly OHKO it so it can also face off against them early game. It also gets it's teammates in safely against bulky CM users like Clef and Fini with a Slow Flip Turn.
I do think running a bit of defense goes a long way. I had calced some time before but a Pert with 403 HP/237 Def/282 SpD still has takes the same, 2HKOes, 3HKOes and 4HKOes from relevant special moves and the defense helps particularly against defoggers and Zeraora.

I understand it's ground type competition is absurd with Lando, Chomp (both being among top 5 mons) and Hippo being absolutely top tier mons but it has it's own very useful niche too.

Completely agree w everything about pert you’ve said here, I find it to be an excellent pivot. Stab on it’s pivot move is a game changer, allowing it to significantly chip anything coming in, which in turn makes breaking defensive cores much easier.

 

[ausma]

In addition to what Finch said, I’ve noticed a gigantic uptick in double posts lately, which are back-to-back posts. These can bloat the thread and make it harder to read through. So, please don’t do them; if you have further thoughts you’d like to add, you can very easily amend them to your original post!

Continued offenses will be infracted, so please keep this in mind for the future. Thanks!