Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [See Post #1517 on Page 61]

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I completely disagree with not only the arctozolt nomination but the claim that hail is the best weather. I mean I know that sand has fallen off a bit but to say that it's worse than hail is complete blasphemy. I have never seen a rise in arctozolt or hail ever since arctozolt rose.The only time I've seen arctozolt in high level play is in one WCOP replay and in no way does that automatically mean a pokemon is now C+ in the viability rankings.You're going to need to clarify more about why arctozolt should rise because simply claiming that hail is the best weather out of nowhere is a complete BS claim that isn't going to convince or fool anyone that arctozolt deserves a rise.Also don't get me started about the no switch ins argument,It's been done before with primarina and I'm not about to explain for 3 pages as to why that argument is flawed
I 100% agree with you. I should have explained more. Hail is good mainly because of Aurora Veil + the strong sweepers like Arctozolt. Like the post above me already says Arctozolt literally has 0% switch ins as of now which is why it should rise. With Slush Rush it outspeeds almost all of the tier and it hits super hard. Hail is super strong and annoying to deal with because of this and you can add other partners and sweepers along with it.

Edit: Ok I read the post again. Yea not even defensive Melmetal can switch into Arctozolt because it is 3 hit KOed and Double Iron bash may not even 2 hit KO with Aurora Veil. There is literally nothing you can bring in against this thing. You have to sac like half your team to take it out. It’s probably been C+ or higher all along now that I’m thinking. This Ninetails + Arctozolt combination hands down tops all other weather combinations. Here’s some calcs for Arctozolt, and it under Aurora Veil.
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 185-218 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO :melmetal: (max def)
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 338-400 (87.5 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO :Heatran: (spdef)
252 Atk Arctozolt Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 158-186 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO :Tapu Koko:
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery :Ferrothorn: (Utility)
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 309-367 (76.2 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO :Kyurem: (sub roost)

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt with an ally's Aurora Veil: 228-268 (71 - 83.4%) -- approx. 2HKO :Melmetal: (Banded)
116 Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt with an ally's Aurora Veil: 126-150 (39.2 - 46.7%) -- approx. 3HKO :Melmetal: (non banded)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt in Grassy Terrain with an ally's Aurora Veil: 130-153 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery :rillaboom:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt with an ally's Aurora Veil: 77-90 (23.9 - 28%) -- 93% chance to 4HKO :scizor:
 
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Just wanna make a couple quick noms. Atm, I actually think the vr is rather okay and I feel like the mons in rank deserve them

First is :Magnezone: to B+. Based on other vr threads, can't remember which one was it. B ranked mons are pokemon who are great but are somewhat inconsistent. They have noticeable flaws but their positive qualities allow them to stand out. Imo, Magnezone fits this criteria because it's one job is simple to trap metal stuff and is incredibly inconsistent without its prey. Looking at the A- mons, I just don't see Magnezone on the same level as Bisharp or Hippowdon because it's a one trick pony

Second is :Dracozolt: to B. It's really not on the same level of threat or utility the other B rank mons does. Yes, it's a nightmare under sand but all of the weather team's have mostly been declining and if specially defensive Hippo is now a thing then Zolt is just walled for eternity

About the recent nominations

I have to disagree about :Garchomp: dropping. I always thought this guy is above the rest of A+. I would not rank it higher than S- because scale shot but Garchomp has that obnoxious quality of 'no matter what trends happen, Imma do what I've always been doing' and still being a threat. It's own checks are also exploiteable either by a teammate or it's capable if killing them itself. Buzzwole and Lando loses if Garchomp is paired with future sight by having the fs user hard switch on the turn after fs is used to force them both in. Flawed but with the number of offensive threats in the game, it will not be always that you would have more than one check to the same mon that can handle anything it does. Corv loses to it if it's not idbp while Rilla can't kill it before it scale shots. You get the idea. For these two qualities, I believe that Garchomp should remain A+ or even rise to S-

I agree with :Volcarona: dropping. As far as I've noticed, it's basically a trend. It becomes one of, if not, the best threat at one point, metagame adapts to it, it becomes far more manageable. I'm not gonna deny that it's a great pokemon but considering how the metagame has adapted to it, and the fact that it cannot hope to beat its predator on its own, I would have to say that it's not on the same level as something like Kartana, Lele or even Kyurem
 
Just wanna make a couple quick noms. Atm, I actually think the vr is rather okay and I feel like the mons in rank deserve them

First is :Magnezone: to B+. Based on other vr threads, can't remember which one was it. B ranked mons are pokemon who are great but are somewhat inconsistent. They have noticeable flaws but their positive qualities allow them to stand out. Imo, Magnezone fits this criteria because it's one job is simple to trap metal stuff and is incredibly inconsistent without its prey. Looking at the A- mons, I just don't see Magnezone on the same level as Bisharp or Hippowdon because it's a one trick pony

Second is :Dracozolt: to B. It's really not on the same level of threat or utility the other B rank mons does. Yes, it's a nightmare under sand but all of the weather team's have mostly been declining and if specially defensive Hippo is now a thing then Zolt is just walled for eternity
100% agree regarding Magnezone. Hard for me to say that about one of my favorite mons, but it really doesn't accomplish much outside of patching up a team's weakness to Steels. Great at that niche, but it's just a niche nonetheless.

Dracozolt is another story. Sure, it gets walled by SpD Hippo, but that exact same Hippo facilitates it quite nicely, and as you said, Zolt is a nightmare under sand so it definitely appreciates the rise in its usage. What helps further in that regard is that hard Sand is falling out in favor of SpD Hippo Balance, which has enough room for both Zolt and a check for opposing Hippo. The fact that Zolt has more than one viable set, both the LO breaker and FS trapper, means it isn't one-dimensional on these teams and deserves to remain B+ imo.
 

TailGlowVM

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In addition to Hippowdon's return, Landorus-T is now running specially defensive spreads most of the time, which doesn't completely wall it like Hippo, but it does add another excellent and common counter, so Dracozolt can't just claim a KO every time it comes in now.
 

Finchinator

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hey Finchinator u talked about a utility spikes mew in your last viability ranking video i was wonder if u had a set or even a team u could share
For future reference, try using the SQSA (Simple Questions Simple Answers) thread for inquiries like this.

Anyway, Spikes / Knock / Wisp / Roost. Run speed for at least Modest Nidoking (so hit 270), but you can easily go more for a variety of other targets and max out HP. I am on mobile at work so cannot provide a team rn, but if you PM me later I can!
 
About the recent nominations

I have to disagree about :Garchomp: dropping. I always thought this guy is above the rest of A+. I would not rank it higher than S- because scale shot but Garchomp has that obnoxious quality of 'no matter what trends happen, Imma do what I've always been doing' and still being a threat. It's own checks are also exploiteable either by a teammate or it's capable if killing them itself. Buzzwole and Lando loses if Garchomp is paired with future sight by having the fs user hard switch on the turn after fs is used to force them both in. Flawed but with the number of offensive threats in the game, it will not be always that you would have more than one check to the same mon that can handle anything it does. Corv loses to it if it's not idbp while Rilla can't kill it before it scale shots. You get the idea. For these two qualities, I believe that Garchomp should remain A+ or even rise to S-
Garchomp is still a pretty good sweeper but with Landorus and Hippowdon that just Toxic it, and piority users like Urshifu and Weavile rising, I don’t see how it remains in A+. I really don’t see how somehow would just get FS in for Garchomp to sweep but if it does, they can pivot out and it still gets Toxiced. Then it just dies. If it doesn’t even scale shot then that just means it gets outspeed and it dies. The Defensive set is still really good however but the SD set has decreased also with Skarmory and ID Corviknight rising in the last shifts so I think it drops. Idk why people are still struggling to check this thing. It running LO would just make it die super quickly and it’s not super hard to not let it get free switches.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 213-258 (55.7 - 67.5%) -- approx. 2HKO :landorus-therian:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 274-324 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO :hippowdon:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 81-96 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO :Skarmory:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 99-117 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO :Corviknight:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 388-460 (108.6 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO :Weavile:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 153-181 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO :urshifu rapid strike:
(Didn’t include rila because you already know.) :rillaboom:
 
Garchomp is still a pretty good sweeper but with Landorus and Hippowdon that just Toxic it, and piority users like Urshifu and Weavile rising, I don’t see how it remains in A+. I really don’t see how somehow would just get FS in for Garchomp to sweep but if it does, they can pivot out and it still gets Toxiced. Then it just dies. If it doesn’t even scale shot then that just means it gets outspeed and it dies. The Defensive set is still really good however but the SD set has decreased also with Skarmory and ID Corviknight rising in the last shifts so I think it drops. Idk why people are still struggling to check this thing. It running LO would just make it die super quickly and it’s not super hard to not let it get free switches.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 213-258 (55.7 - 67.5%) -- approx. 2HKO :landorus-therian:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 274-324 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO :hippowdon:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 81-96 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO :Skarmory:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 99-117 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO :Corviknight:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 388-460 (108.6 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO :Weavile:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 153-181 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO :urshifu rapid strike:
(Didn’t include rila because you already know.) :rillaboom:
Life orb sucks on Garchomp rn, or just about any pokemon that takes the recoil unless its hyper offense. What I meant about Garchomp being A+ is that all of its checks are far too easy to exploit and going out of the way to counter it has major opportunity costs. For example, an idbp metal bird hard walls Garchomp but that also means that it cannot touch mons like Dragapult. With Skarm, that is less of a problem but with Corv, it becomes a major issue since u turn is one of Corv's biggest perks. Also, there really isn't much of a point in walling the targets when you can simply pivot out to your offensive threat, which is why I say that idbp has major opportunity costs. As for Lando, it's not all that impressive. It's still a great pokemon and it can reliably do its job but I find that Lando is far too easy to take advantage. I mean, Garchomp almost always forces in Lando so double switching to something like Lele or Moistshifu would put you in a good attacking position. Also, if Hippo is spdef, it needs to stay healthy otherwise it will not be able to check Garchomp, that's also not considering how vulnerable they both are to toxic, which isn't that hard to do. As for Rilla, glide doesn't actually kill chomp before scale shot, neither does adamant Weavile's non band ice shard

Let's not forget that Garchomp doesn't even have to fight its checks itself. Yes, it is capable of beating them but that's risky. Also, as TailGlow mentioned, Lando and Hippo are running spdef and I think that's mainly because of Volcarona and if they're spdef, then than only makes Chomp's life easier

Some of those calcs are also not accurate. Corviknight does not run full def because it needs spdef to help against Kyurem and Lele while Weavile is almost always gonna be boots and has major issues in breaking Toxapex and sometimes even Corv. I would also dare say that Garchomp doesn't run stone edge anymore. There really isn't anything noteworthy to hit with a rock type move that you would go out of your way to use a move that's as reliable as mobile game ads. Life orb se Garchomp was popular during the Spectrier reign since that allowed Chomp to get rid of Mandibuzz but Mandi is also on a downhill journey

Just because a pokemon is easily revenge killed by major threats or easy to check should not dictate its positioning in the vr. If that were the case then we might as well put Heatran at the bottom of C- since it's typing leaves it easy to revenge kill by basically everything that isn't Dragapult. Unlike the mons in A, Garchomp is more than capable of winning games on its own. I'm not saying that they can't do that but Garchomp does it so much better as about half of the offensive A rank are usually choice locked. I know this from experience as I've been spamming Garchomp ever since crown tundra dropped
 
What I meant about Garchomp being A+ is that all of its checks are far too easy to exploit and going out of the way to counter it has major opportunity costs. For example, an idbp metal bird hard walls Garchomp but that also means that it cannot touch mons like Dragapult. With Skarm, that is less of a problem but with Corv, it becomes a major issue since u turn is one of Corv's biggest perks.
The point is that Corv is increasing in usage, rising in tier shifts, and the ID sets are slowing this thing down tremendously. Even if it can’t hit Dragapult they often have ways where you can work around this and deal with the opportunity to not be able to hit a Brave Bird on Dragapult. You can look at the usage stats. Corv rose from #7 to #5. U-Turn and ID sets do different things, but the U-Turn set also stops it b/c you can pivot and force it out easily.

Let's not forget that Garchomp doesn't even have to fight its checks itself. Yes, it is capable of beating them but that's risky. Also, as TailGlow mentioned, Lando and Hippo are running spdef and I think that's mainly because of Volcarona and if they're spdef, then than only makes Chomp's life easier.
Lando and Hippo still mostly run Defensive sets. They usually run Spdef sets because of other things (not Volc) but most of the time they are still going to slow Garchomp down and it hardly takes even a single kill. We see it many times in high level play.

No one switches a Defensive Corv into Kyurem and Lele when Lele 2 HKOs it with Thunderbolt, and Kyurem kills it with Ice Beam so that’s not big of a disadvantage. HD Boots Weavile still 2 HKOs Garchomp so it can’t even complete its sweep almost all the time (even if you just give this thing a free switch).

With all of these things coming more into the meta game like Fini, Weavile, and fast offensive mons, I really think that Garchomp just isn’t as good as it was before and ppl don’t seem to have a problem stopping it. Even if no one drops it on the VR I’ll just sit back and continue to watch it struggle to do anything against me. It’s not like Zera which can outlast and trample down its checks, or the other strong attackers in +A.
 
The point is that Corv is increasing in usage, rising in tier shifts, and the ID sets are slowing this thing down tremendously. Even if it can’t hit Dragapult they often have ways where you can work around this and deal with the opportunity to not be able to hit a Brave Bird on Dragapult. You can look at the usage stats. Corv rose from #7 to #5. U-Turn and ID sets do different things, but the U-Turn set also stops it b/c you can pivot and force it out easily.


Lando and Hippo still mostly run Defensive sets. They usually run Spdef sets because of other things (not Volc) but most of the time they are still going to slow Garchomp down and it hardly takes even a single kill. We see it many times in high level play.

No one switches a Defensive Corv into Kyurem and Lele when Lele 2 HKOs it with Thunderbolt, and Kyurem kills it with Ice Beam so that’s not big of a disadvantage. HD Boots Weavile still 2 HKOs Garchomp so it can’t even complete its sweep almost all the time (even if you just give this thing a free switch).

With all of these things coming more into the meta game like Fini, Weavile, and fast offensive mons, I really think that Garchomp just isn’t as good as it was before and ppl don’t seem to have a problem stopping it. Even if no one drops it on the VR I’ll just sit back and continue to watch it struggle to do anything against me. It’s not like Zera which can outlast and trample down its checks, or the other strong attackers in +A.
Garchomp still provides a lot of value for a team with its typing, rough skin chip damage, and ability to sweep. Garchomp at +2 can still break through corviknight if it has its leftovers knocked off which is very common scenario as it defogs and switches in on a lot of things. Especially when its switching in with stealth rocks up +2 fire fang can 2hko corviknight even after it iron defenses after the first one. Landorus-t has no recovery besides leftovers and is going to slowly get whittled down over the period of the game meaning it cannot counter garchomp over the course of the game, especially since landorus-t is forced to check other things like zeraora, zapdos, landorus-t, corviknight, mandibuzz, magnezone and more. It is going to get worn down and be unable to check it, since at +1 (after intimidate) it takes 50 from 3 hits, which leaves it to be 2hko'ed especially after stealth rocks. Hippowdown cant really switch in on a boosted chomp besides whirlwind it or toxic it. Garchomp exerts a lot of pressure on the opponent and either breaking holes or being a late game cleaner. Garchomp also has defensive sets which really pressure pokemon like zeraora, scizor, urshifu-r, and corviknight from clicking contact, just because it does not break your team does not mean its a bad pokemon. Its a top 4 pokemon and it should probably stay that way
 
Garchomp still provides a lot of value for a team with its typing, rough skin chip damage, and ability to sweep. Garchomp at +2 can still break through corviknight if it has its leftovers knocked off which is very common scenario as it defogs and switches in on a lot of things. Especially when its switching in with stealth rocks up +2 fire fang can 2hko corviknight even after it iron defenses after the first one. Landorus-t has no recovery besides leftovers and is going to slowly get whittled down over the period of the game meaning it cannot counter garchomp over the course of the game, especially since landorus-t is forced to check other things like zeraora, zapdos, landorus-t, corviknight, mandibuzz, magnezone and more. It is going to get worn down and be unable to check it, since at +1 (after intimidate) it takes 50 from 3 hits, which leaves it to be 2hko'ed especially after stealth rocks. Hippowdown cant really switch in on a boosted chomp besides whirlwind it or toxic it. Garchomp exerts a lot of pressure on the opponent and either breaking holes or being a late game cleaner. Garchomp also has defensive sets which really pressure pokemon like zeraora, scizor, urshifu-r, and corviknight from clicking contact, just because it does not break your team does not mean its a bad pokemon. Its a top 4 pokemon and it should probably stay that way
Garchomp is not a bad Pokemon. I just think it’s not as good as it was before. Yes, it still gives solid value to a team, it applies good pressure, it has good defense, but not like before. The Defensive set is completely shut down by Corviknight but it’s still nice and that’s not the main problem. However, Zera clicks Toxic, Urshifu clicks ice punch, and Scizor can Defog and setup in front of it. If you switch to Lando when it SDs and it Scale Shots the next turn, it’s 100% dead from the defense drop, and the possible Toxic. More and more mons that threaten Garchomp are coming into play which really prevents it from getting a clean switch. The only recovery it has is Leftovers but then it won’t hit very hard if you use it. It’s still good and all with Rough Skin but because of these changes, I believe it should drop. However, now I see why it can stay in A+ tier. (Also Hippodon can come it when it SDs and it Toxics it. It doesn’t get a chance to Scale Shot or it dies so it gets taken out this way.) The discussion is going somewhere so that’s good.
 
Garchomp is not a bad Pokemon. I just think it’s not as good as it was before. Yes, it still gives solid value to a team, it applies good pressure, it has good defense, but not like before. The Defensive set is completely shut down by Corviknight but it’s still nice and that’s not the main problem. However, Zera clicks Toxic, Urshifu clicks ice punch, and Scizor can Defog and setup in front of it. If you switch to Lando when it SDs and it Scale Shots the next turn, it’s 100% dead from the defense drop, and the possible Toxic. More and more mons that threaten Garchomp are coming into play which really prevents it from getting a clean switch. The only recovery it has is Leftovers but then it won’t hit very hard if you use it. It’s still good and all with Rough Skin but because of these changes, I believe it should drop. However, now I see why it can stay in A+ tier. (Also Hippodon can come it when it SDs and it Toxics it. It doesn’t get a chance to Scale Shot or it dies so it gets taken out this way.) The discussion is going somewhere so that’s good.
Well... So is landorus-t with its standard eq, u-turn, toxic, stealth rocks set, and it can easily become an annoying pokemon to face, garchomp to defensively is very good, punishing almost every contact move, able to toxic everything and set up hazards, rest can keep it healthy so it can continue to harrass the enemy while staying healthy. Urshifu-r rarely uses ice punch and scizor rarely uses defog. Landorus-t cannot switch in on SD and take 2 scale shots since it drops on the next one and cannot ohko in return. Scarf landorus only does 60 max with eq and gets scale shotted twice in return and since it gets outsped it cannot 1v1 it.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As this calc shows hippowdown will be very low from this interactions and earthquake does 40 max in return meaning hippowdown does 40% and dies, or it switches out and it has to find a way to recover on something for the rest of the game or to be useless. Garchomp obviously has teammates to fall back on to help it if it cannot handle the matchup currently like if scizor is going to set up, switch into your heat wave zapdos, or toxapex, if zeraora is threatening toxic you can either eq it or toxic it in return in which the defensive set can also rest it off.
 
Well... So is landorus-t with its standard eq, u-turn, toxic, stealth rocks set, and it can easily become an annoying pokemon to face, garchomp to defensively is very good, punishing almost every contact move, able to toxic everything and set up hazards, rest can keep it healthy so it can continue to harrass the enemy while staying healthy. Urshifu-r rarely uses ice punch and scizor rarely uses defog. Landorus-t cannot switch in on SD and take 2 scale shots since it drops on the next one and cannot ohko in return. Scarf landorus only does 60 max with eq and gets scale shotted twice in return and since it gets outsped it cannot 1v1 it.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As this calc shows hippowdown will be very low from this interactions and earthquake does 40 max in return meaning hippowdown does 40% and dies, or it switches out and it has to find a way to recover on something for the rest of the game or to be useless. Garchomp obviously has teammates to fall back on to help it if it cannot handle the matchup currently like if scizor is going to set up, switch into your heat wave zapdos, or toxapex, if zeraora is threatening toxic you can either eq it or toxic it in return in which the defensive set can also rest it off.
Yes what Garchomp checks don’t often have counter play but Urshifu is definitely running ice punch more for Dragonite, and this Defensive Garchomp set. It’s something to take note of though. It’s a standard and still a solid rocker with Toxic and Dragon type coverage, but like I said before many things are slowing this thing down.

There are many times when Lando is switching in on Garchomp when it SDs on higher level play. I will find one rn but it gives a Toxic and it has to drop Defense which forces it out and it dies because it has Toxic. Spdef Hippowdon vs Garchomp is better than I thought but yea same deal with Lando. It gets Toxiced, the defense drops, and same as before. I hope ppl don’t take this too seriously and if they think Garchomp is A+ that’s fine this is just my opinion and if you think otherwise you can say it. We really don’t want a blacklist to happen rn.

Here‘s a replay of Garchomp doing absolutely nothing. It never gets a chance to switch in.https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560513
 
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Even when running Jolly with Glaciate you still get the 2HKO to the main targets, and sure getting the clean 2HKO on tank Garchomp could be nice , but being Hasty basically makes you weaker from Bullet Punch for no reason, especially since Victini acts as an offensive check to Scizor so the Special Attack drop isn't that bad while giving you some decent bulk without affecting them.
what if you run naive? sure thats a spdef lower but you get that aformentioned 2HKO on defense chomp, and the speed from jolly/hasty, but don't take more damage from Bullet Punch.
 
what if you run naive? sure thats a spdef lower but you get that aformentioned 2HKO on defense chomp, and the speed from jolly/hasty, but don't take more damage from Bullet Punch.
Same goes just like taking more from Bullet Punch is not ideal, you take more damage from more things you are supposed to offensively check like Tapu Lele, Volcarona, and Calm Mind Clefable, hence why Jolly is still preferred and Garchomp is really something that can get chipped rather easily so if anything it will become in range of the 2HKO sooner or later.
 
Same goes just like taking more from Bullet Punch is not ideal, you take more damage from more things you are supposed to offensively check like Tapu Lele, Volcarona, and Calm Mind Clefable, hence why Jolly is still preferred and Garchomp is really something that can get chipped rather easily so if anything it will become in range of the 2HKO sooner or later.
oh ok
anyways nom:
Torkoal -> C-, or charizard -> C.
these are 2 mons that have great synergy with eachother but neither of them do much without the other, they should be on the same subrank.
 
Da stall masta 999 you mention that Garchomp is easy to check yet you didn't even comment on the part where Garchomp doesn't even have to fight it's checks itself. Also, if Garchomp, or any pokemon for that matter, gets toxiced, it's not the end of the world. They can still do something useful even with status. Garchomp's role is still a wall breaker and not a dedicated sweeper like Volcarona. It just got a whole lot better because scale shot allows it to be a sweeper in addition to being a wall breaker. As I mentioned before, it's checks are very exploitable. If you know what you're doing, you can very easily take advantage of Landorus with double switches. It is also important to remember the difference between checks and counters. If a pokemon checks another pokemon, it means that the first one is more than capable of beating its checks itself. It's not a scenario of Talonflame vs Tyranitar where Talonflame is helpless against Tyranitar unless it is on very low health

Lastly, I wanna point out something that I've noticed, trends. Ever since Magearna was banned, the battles got a lot more diverse without a broken bunny around. If I remember correctly, after the ban, a couple of people were like 'omg Lele and Kyurem are so broken they just click one move and everything drops ban this please' and guess what, everything adapted. Then everyone figured out that fsport Slowking was broken when combined with Weavile, Bisharp or Moistshifu and a lot of people wanted it neutered but now, Slowking is easy to take advantage of. Then Zamazenta happened then just about everyone was like 'omg Volcarona is broken ban this to ubers asap blyat' and now it's not even that big of a threat anymore. Pokemon become threatening at one point and then everything adapts to it they become pretty meh

What I'm trying to say is that there will be trends and a pokemon's viabilty should not depend on these trends, unless the trends happen at the same time as a vr shift schedule I guess. What's the schedule for the shifts anyway? Trends usually don't last for more than a few weeks and if they do, then they're no longer trends but are tier staples. However, throughout all of these trends, some pokemon remained the same with minimal changes. Some of these include Lando, Heatran, Garchomp and of course, Dragapult. Despite the trends sometimes favoring them, sometimes not, they have remained the same and are still as powerful as ever. This quality already puts them ahead of the tier because not many can possess that same quality. Ever since the first three have been introduced into the game, they're basically 'we're gonna do what we've always been doing and be good at it. Deal with it bitch' and it could mean that they're immune to power creep, or if they're not, then gamefreak needs to step up their games to knock these three off their high horse

There is one more thing I wanna talk about and it's the most important thing. If this discussion about Garchomp continues, who's willing to guess how long it will be before our sharky boi gets blacklisted? I'd say about seven hours max. Any takers?

Edit: A small tl dr

meme.jpg
 
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oh ok
anyways nom:
Torkoal -> C-, or charizard -> C.
these are 2 mons that have great synergy with eachother but neither of them do much without the other, they should be on the same subrank.
While torkoal sun means venusaur is auto include, charizard is not , it is a great breaker but has to compete with heatran, volcarona, victini. It is C-, used on a niche playstyle where it is not even mandatory. It can be useful just not as impactful as the others
 

Blimax

I never saw you coming!
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Glad too see Buzzwole rise in the Rankings.

This mon single handedly makes HO Teams Unviable. It takes on the entire Physical OU Tier, giving barely 1 or 2 exceptions. ( yeah, it takes on Hawlucha before boost and a non boosted bulky D-nite )
Showing some calcs below.

252 Atk Dragonite Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 320-384 (76.5 - 91.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 300-356 (77.7 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [ take 2 turns Dual Wingbeat Helmet Chip from Buzz, Ice Punch is an oko ]

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 184-220 (44 - 52.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO [unboosted]
0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 182-216 (61.2 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [gg hawlucha]

With the correct set, it takes Dazzling Gleam from Koko and obliterates it back with EQ.
It takes Psyshock from Specs lele and obliterates it back with Leech Life/Jab.

People are being forced to run Aerial Ace Weavile, Aerial Ace Kart and stuff, which drains away a very expensive moveslot from either.
Funniest fact it, it doesnt even kill Buzz and just to check 1 mon, you lack out on either Smart Strike or Ice Shard, which are some of the best coverage to run on the two mons.

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 300-356 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 272-324 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO [ buzzwole says: I am not even invested ]

Not even getting to Banded Weavile. We all saw Smogtour Finals the laughable damage it did.

Not only defensive wise, it has more offensive firepower than every mon in the OU tier except paper cut and melmetal, combining with setup moves like bulk up, this mon can do whatever you need it to do.

Some Laughable additional calcs:

+6 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 348-409 (83.2 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 330-388 (78.9 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 246-290 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 278-328 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 224-264 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall this mon is getting its deserved place, which is really good to see. I hope it skyrockets up in the VR's.
 
Also don't get me started about the no switch ins argument,It's been done before with primarina and I'm not about to explain for 3 pages as to why that argument is flawed
Hey, that was just the crux of why I think Primarina is A tier, but it’s not fair that you’re simplifying my arguments down to that point. Here are some reiterated bullet points
  • Requires no team support to fulfil it’s purpose, like most other A tier
  • Has a positive matchup against most OU Pokémon that outspeed it, making it specifically powerful in the early turns. In return, it threatens OHKO verse a lot of OUs top tier threats. Arctozolt might not have many switch ins, but definitely cannot have a starting matchup vs even 50% of OUs top threats. Meanwhile landorus, dragapult, etc are very easy to bait into lead positions (and are already very common) and give it a free turn.
  • Sets up very easily on many defensive Pokémon’s. A lot of them can’t break the substitute
  • Metronome makes it unwallable, outside of pink blobs and ferrothorn
  • Unlike other slow and heavy hitters, with favourable typing, such as Bisharp, Crawdaunt and Conkeldurr, there is not common Primarina switch in that can threaten an OHKO back. Sludge bomb from g-king needs spA investment and sub 75% HP to ko, Ferrothorn can KO with power whip, however it’s not on every set. Melmetal can Ko with DIB, however hates coming in more than once. Clef, birds, slowking, toxapex, etc all just let it accumulate damage...
  • Counter play against primarina for most teams is difficult, due to a lot of Pokémon that resist one of its stabs, absolutely hating the other as well. High probability of secondary effects also synergies with spamming repeated moves/metronome. So it’s not very easy to predictably switch about unless you have a lot of regenerators. And even they hate metronome boosted STAB attacks.
Anyway, apparently it was a poor nomination because primarina has since dropped tiers. So I won’t pursue this for now, but just wanted to clarify those key points.

in short: primarina is really good at fulfilling its purpose, and performs well without significant support. I’d compare it to Bisharp before comparing it to Arctozolt (and previously Fini).

—-

:Primarina: :Volcarona:
Update in regards to my team with Primarina and Volcarona. I have dabbled with it still whilst in the 1900 range, Volcarona is still a premium threat. Running Pokémon that lure in her checks does help, such as trick+sludge g-Slowking luring in spDef hippo that need to get their rocks up.

Unfortunately prim is very hard to use when there is a blissey..

Here is a reminder why Volcarona is still amazing, a replay following includes 3 reliable Volcarona counters (to most sets at least) and 2 reliable Volcarona checks on the same team.

amazingly, Volcarona was still the wincon... even tho I planned on Rillaboom being the wincon after luring in Lando with chomp and dragapult had hit the critical sub 80% threshold! Admittedly this is mostly because she wasn’t on the receiving end of any toxic, and para support helped a lot..

unfortunately prim doesn’t look good, but still fulfilled the purpose of disincentivising early dragapult spam.

Summary: Volcarona is still premium tier, this game had 2 checks and 3 counters on opposing team! 1910 rating.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1363846428
 
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The only time I've seen arctozolt in high level play is in one WCOP replay and in no way does that automatically mean a pokemon is now C+ in the viability rankings.You're going to need to clarify more about why arctozolt should rise because simply claiming that hail is the best weather out of nowhere is a complete BS claim that isn't going to convince or fool anyone that arctozolt deserves a rise.
I’m making this post because I need to clarify some stuff about Arctozolt, Garchomp, and maybe even Volc (I haven’t decided yet).

:arctozolt:

The points I’m making about Arctozolt is that:

- it’s a strong fast sweeper with hail support
- it has near flawless type coverage with BB + Freeze Dry
- it’s very hard to kill/VK under Aurora Veil with Ninetails
- substitute allows it to pick up more kills and it forces difficult predictions
- LO 2 hit KOs almost every mon in the tier so it really forces predictions
- it even can be banded and one shot everything expect some steels/etc
- it doesn’t require setup, it just goes and picks up kills

“might not have many switch ins, but definitely cannot have a starting matchup vs even 50% of OUs top threats.” -ctann

This is true but it goes to show that even if facing threats it puts your opponent in a difficult position and they will still likely have to sac a few mons on their team. It shows how hard Arctozolt really is to stop and things like Ferro are 2HKOED by LO Low Kick so it’s a real offensive presence.

Arctozolt is a really hard mon to stop once it gets going which is why I think it should rise to C+ tier while hail is doing really good in the meta game able to have fast sweepers along with it, and other large amounts of offensive pressure like Sandslash and good pivots that threaten hazard setup.

:garchomp:
Like the Arctozolt and Primarina post above me, I will first sum up the points I’m making about Garchomp dropping.

- More offensive pressure in the meta game that severely limits Garchomp switches (Weavile, Dragapult, Urshifu-R, Nidoking) seen in this replay https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-560513
- Once this thing is toxiced by a lando, hippo, or even buzzwole who is rising, it can’t come back in. The calcs at +1 and +2 are too weak to KO both of them as I explained before and it can’t setup again on a free opportunity (rare) or it will lose 1/3 of its health.
- Proity kills this thing easily after a SS if it even gets the free setup and it is common on many teams. (Weavile, Rillaboom, Urshifu, Scizor)
- More defensive threats are rising like Fini, Buzz, Skarmory, ID Corv. FB does not beat Corv unless it’s LO mixed EVs, but then it dies.
- Its SR set is lacking because again, Corv is rising and the Rocks get PP stalled and FB doesn’t do enough. It also can’t Toxic a steel type.
- Even things it checks like Zera have counter play. (Zera uses Toxic, Urshifu still does 2/3 of its health, and it’s not that hard to kill overall.) If it runs Rest, it can’t even attack.

“It doesn’t have to fight its checks itself. Need to beat SD Scizor? Use a Zapdos.”

This is not a valid point to keep it in A+. When you build around a mon, you add mons that cover its weaknesses. I do not see how this is a reason on why it should stay in A+ because you’re doing this with every team basically unless it makes it a hard threat like Urshifu + Slowking G. And like I said before, it’s really hard to get Garchomp in the battle field RN and the sweep is easily stopped period from the reasons above.

As much as I want to think people are forcing themselves to think Garchomp is A+ due to its cool design and typing, it’s still not as good as before no matter how hard to try to make it. “Oooo it scale shots and gets faster oooo it SDs and hits harddd”. That does not make it A+ and you need to consider what has changed in the meta game that makes it worse than before.
 
Da stall masta 999 just wanted to say I’m actually in support of arctozolt to at least C+, my comments were in regards to saying it’s not comparable to primarina.

it’s a good Pokémon, I think an offensive team with hail and HDB arcto is quite potent, have even experimented myself. It’a also surprisingly occurring every now and again on ladder and it does pull weight. I just think Arctozolt is investing 2 Pokémon (ninetails and zolt) to get the impact of 1.5 great Pokémon (where great is something like a rillaboom, dragapult, Slowking, etc).

with some further experimentation tho someone might find a set or elegant team design that really shows off how good arctozolt can be.

-

Regards to :Garchomp: , thoughts are still A+ or even S- tier, tho I can see it trending down potentially, thanks to its defensive sets being less useful than before, just can’t see it yet, mostly because offensive sets are still great and it’s a matter of time before new spreads and movepools become meta. SD+SR on same set is already long dead.

The thing with Garchomp is you don’t need it to threaten a sweep and it’s still got value as a check/switch in. Even just coming in on a u turn from a corviknifht or a knock off from Zeraora can be a big deal to help you get to certain %HP benchmarks for a partnered type.

This is in contrast to other A+ Pokémon like Weavile, who are massive threats, but have limited switch in value. Or others like Slowking, which has amazing support value, but is more easily punished/suffocated.

Keen to see others opinions. I think that replay you gave actually supports showing how good Garchomp is, as it remained somewhat relevant despite getting no breathing room. You also managed to confirm the nidoking wasn’t scarfed on the turn you both switched out
 
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Glad too see Buzzwole rise in the Rankings.

This mon single handedly makes HO Teams Unviable. It takes on the entire Physical OU Tier, giving barely 1 or 2 exceptions. ( yeah, it takes on Hawlucha before boost and a non boosted bulky D-nite )
Showing some calcs below.

252 Atk Dragonite Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 320-384 (76.5 - 91.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 300-356 (77.7 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [ take 2 turns Dual Wingbeat Helmet Chip from Buzz, Ice Punch is an oko ]

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 184-220 (44 - 52.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO [unboosted]
0 Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 182-216 (61.2 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [gg hawlucha]

With the correct set, it takes Dazzling Gleam from Koko and obliterates it back with EQ.
It takes Psyshock from Specs lele and obliterates it back with Leech Life/Jab.

People are being forced to run Aerial Ace Weavile, Aerial Ace Kart and stuff, which drains away a very expensive moveslot from either.
Funniest fact it, it doesnt even kill Buzz and just to check 1 mon, you lack out on either Smart Strike or Ice Shard, which are some of the best coverage to run on the two mons.

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 300-356 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 272-324 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO [ buzzwole says: I am not even invested ]

Not even getting to Banded Weavile. We all saw Smogtour Finals the laughable damage it did.

Not only defensive wise, it has more offensive firepower than every mon in the OU tier except paper cut and melmetal, combining with setup moves like bulk up, this mon can do whatever you need it to do.

Some Laughable additional calcs:

+6 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 348-409 (83.2 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 330-388 (78.9 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 246-290 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 278-328 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Buzzwole: 224-264 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Overall this mon is getting its deserved place, which is really good to see. I hope it skyrockets up in the VR's.
Don't forget roost boi
also just saying your looking at 6+ ATTACK stages from pokemon that never even reach 6+. for unboosted, its terrifying:
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 73-86 (17.4 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
(not all lando-t even run stone edge)
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 91-108 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Weavile Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 156-184 (37.3 - 44%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(this is non band set yes)
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 85-102 (20.3 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Also bisharp isn't getting to 6+ against buzz, just dies.)
also, the considerably more passive protective pads+thunder wave set has a hard time killing wall buzz, the calcs for melm aren't even taking into consideration the healed damage from drain punch.
TLDR I soundly agree with this post.
edit: also your a good stall mon when you don't just get obliterated by daunt, tho daunt doesn't appear much (obv still has much more raw power than weavile and bisharp, but weavile is fast and bisharp has defiant along with some actual bulk.
 
nom time pog

C > C+/B-
Cloyster still being in C is absolutely criminal as it's imo a great option for HO teams. Due to its amazing defense stats setting up a Shell Smash is far from a problem most of the time and once it does most "checks" are one 41% flinch away from being in range of a +2 Icicle Spear/Rock Blast. It also greatly appreciates the decline that Rillaboom has been experiencing recently. It has some problems like how reliant it is on getting flinches but it's definetly a better option than niche mons like Salazzle, Toxtricity and Volcanion.

B- > C+

Rain has dropped off really hard. Things that threaten the hell out of it like Kyurem, Zeraora and Kartana are really common, the rise of SpD Hippo means its hard to keep rain up for as long as you'd need it to a lot of the time and lots of things that rain has difficulty breaking through like Toxapex and Tapu Fini are rising. I find it hard to believe that it still merits a B- placement and imo it should drop to C+.

Also agree with
to B+. It's still a good mon but it doesnt really do much outside of trapping steels. Seems much more like a B+ mon to me
 
nom time pog

C > C+/B-
Cloyster still being in C is absolutely criminal as it's imo a great option for HO teams. Due to its amazing defense stats setting up a Shell Smash is far from a problem most of the time and once it does most "checks" are one 41% flinch away from being in range of a +2 Icicle Spear/Rock Blast. It also greatly appreciates the decline that Rillaboom has been experiencing recently. It has some problems like how reliant it is on getting flinches but it's definetly a better option than niche mons like Salazzle, Toxtricity and Volcanion.
Yes, absolutely yes, albeit i may go more extreme as it really only gets superwalleed by zone, which still prob loses against kings rock
 
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