Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Liquidocelot]

>

> B The meta hasn't been kind to Dracozolt it dislikes the fact that Landorus-T and Hippowdon have been Special Defense these days and the former is immune to the Physical moves and the latter takes little from Earthquake. Another issue with this has been needing to fit this into Sand teams which have been declining a lot recently and this thing is only useful on Sand teams and is really useless outside of Sand teams meaning you have to use Hustle and rely for all your moves to hit, but you still struggle with Special Defensive Ground-types which are a lot common these days and should probably drop a subrank.

As a very serious Sand player I have to disagree with this statement. I think B+ is perfect for this mon. The factor the matter is that the standard mixed LO set absolutely destroys the common defensive mons of the tier in Chomp, Corv, Ferro, Tran, Fini, Skarm who are all on the rise and that outside SPD ground types this mon is near unwallable when used right.

Also it's most common teammates in Exca and Chomp both appreciate what it breaks and the rise in SPD ground types like Lando and Hippo as both now get flattened by these sweepers and with the lowering of Rilla Sand is better than in a long time.

Sure Zolt doesn't like the rise of Weavile but it appreciated a ton of the rest of the meta and the common Tran/Corv/Fini/ground core except Hippo as that's the only one that can recover. He'll even SPD Lando can't take 2 Draco's after a little bit of chip. The only really thing it worries about is Hippo.

This mon is fine where it and is the one thing and honestly without it, I'd say Sand would literally be unviable compared to now where it is hands down the best weather IMO

 

[Delibird Heart]

> C+ Just jumping on this bandwagon, I have been extensively playing hail lately (which is definitely the best weather rn, suck it sand players) and Arctozolt is a monster. I'll try to make some points that haven't already been made because this has already been disccused a lot. This mon can destroy whole teams by itself (especially stall) and is only offensively checked by Zeraora (but it can't come in because LO Icicle Crash 2HKOes) or fast scarfers while hail is up as it just one shots everything else before giving them a chance to hit. Its decently bulky with 90/90/80 and can usually take one 1 neutral hits before falling, making it pretty safe from priority moves that usually work great vs other weather sweepers such as venu who fears ice shard, exca who fears aqua jet and barraskewda which fears pretty much anything lol. Having stabbed boltbeam + freeze-dry makes it so you can get past all your checks (with the right predictions for some of them) whereas other weather sweepers are usually hardwalled by at least 1 mon, and often more (dnite/tran for venu depending on the set, corv/skarm for exca, etc...). Because of this arctozolt doesn't require any offensive support at all and you can comfortably play it with just alolatales and 4 fat utility mons and still put an incredible pressure on opposing teams which will live and die by their ground-types + zera/ferro. Here are some replays at ~1800 elo to better cement this point :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1367739432
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1367724574-dtc70p82rg046f3dkxmc57bb1o9dwgbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1367954516-cpb2oem6d2pv3h3ekm2ebaz615me6gapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1367981562-xwbfuw50k383h54pgs01zx51n3hw7f0pw
Imo this guy could even be B- because a hail core of zolt + atales can just be splashed into a lot of teams, requiring only 2 slots like other notoriously great offensive combos such as kokolucha or ttar + exca which are or were at some point similarly splashable.

> A+ Ferro has just been great lately, as a lot of mons have traded their power items like LO for hdb, making it much harder to crack for mons that could beat it before (like weav which would easily kill with +2 life orb knock after some chip). This mon is always a pain to face and you KNOW you just reflexively cringe when you see it on team preview. It's one of the most reliable defensive hazard setters, be it rock or spikes, and its 3 other slots could be anything among leech, power whip, gyro ball, thunder wave, toxic, knock or even explosion, meaning that usually at least one or two mons on your teams will be heavily crippled or just straight up die to it. Its checks hate switching in on it for this reason, as most of them hate status or knock or are vulnerable to at least one move it could carry, except magnezone, but you could always run Iron Defense + Body Press ferro to beat it if you're a maniac and just want someone on ladder to have a bad day. I don't really have much else to say but I really feel like ferro has never been this good and thus deserves a rise as the meta seems to favor it rn. It also helps that zolt is on the rise and this is one of the only mons that check it sorta well.

 

[TailGlowVM]

> A+ Ferro has just been great lately, as a lot of mons have traded their power items like LO for hdb, making it much harder to crack for mons that could beat it before (like weav which would easily kill with +2 life orb knock after some chip). This mon is always a pain to face and you KNOW you just reflexively cringe when you see it on team preview. It's one of the most reliable defensive hazard setters, be it rock or spikes, and its 3 other slots could be anything among leech, power whip, gyro ball, thunder wave, toxic, knock or even explosion, meaning that usually at least one or two mons on your teams will be heavily crippled or just straight up die to it. Its checks hate switching in on it for this reason, as most of them hate status or knock or are vulnerable to at least one move it could carry, except magnezone, but you could always run Iron Defense + Body Press ferro to beat it if you're a maniac and just want someone on ladder to have a bad day. I don't really have much else to say but I really feel like ferro has never been this good and thus deserves a rise as the meta seems to favor it rn. It also helps that zolt is on the rise and this is one of the only mons that check it sorta well.

While Ferrothorn is a good Pokemon, my issue is what does it actually reliably check? I still wouldn't consider Arctozolt seriously relevant yet, which means it only properly checks Koko and Fini - which is a lot less than I'd expect for a defensive Pokemon in A+. We also have two other strong options for Spikers and an increasing number of Steel types it has to compete for a slot with.

 

[Rae]

While Ferrothorn is a good Pokemon, my issue is what does it actually reliably check? I still wouldn't consider Arctozolt seriously relevant yet, which means it only properly checks Koko and Fini - which is a lot less than I'd expect for a defensive Pokemon in A+. We also have two other strong options for Spikers and an increasing number of Steel types it has to compete for a slot with.

Ferrothorn reliably checks quite a lot of Pokemon, especially the SpDef set. Koko and Fini are two big ones, but even just looking at the VR you can see a few more solid examples like Lando-T, Weavile, Scizor, Dragonite, CM Clef if it decides to opt for Thunder, Torn-T lacking Heat Wave and a couple other set-dependent Pokemon like Pump > Flamethrower Dragapult. It's a pretty solid glue mon in general as well, being able to scout for specific moves to make things easier to deal with, like switching into an Urshifu-R's Surging Strike or a Kartana's Leaf Blade. Ferro is just a super solid glue mon and that's why I personally support the rise to A+, but I understand if people disagree

 

[Eeveeto]

^ Only thing to point out regarding the above post: Ferro does not check CM Clef at all unless one of the following happens :
-Clef is Unaware and Ferro has Leech or Toxic.
-Ferro is CB, Curse or SD.
-Ferro is TW + Iron Head.
-Clef is Cm but not Pdef for some reason + Ferro has Gyro Ball.

Most CM Clefs are Pdef + Magic Guard, so regardless of the last Clef move, Ferro usually does not check it at all. Moreover, it's a set-up bait and the reason I don't usually use Ferro on Rain, since those tend to be weak to Cm Clef.

 

[TailGlowVM]

And yes, maybe I was understating it a bit, but Ferrothorn's not a great Dragonite check either - Dragon Dance sets pretty much always run Roost to heal Leech Seed chip damage and Ferrothorn doesn't have the movepool to offensively threaten it without Gyro Ball, which it doesn't usually use, and utility sets sometimes use Flamethrower as well.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Magnum provided a pretty good list of mons ferro checks, to this I'll just add that it also soft checks zera, which has abandonned LO in favor of hdb, as it can come in on pfists for free and takes non-LO boosted close combat decently well while crippling ora should it decide to stay in and try to force it's way through.

I could go on and write an exhaustive list; but I think the point is that ferro is generally a great blanket check that can cover a wideeee array of threats from stopping/crippling set up sweepers in a pinch to helping wear down dangerous mons like urshifu and melm that do beat it but don't do it unscathed (unless they are ppads but its still not the most used set). In general what makes ferro good is not its ability to hardwall certain threats like skarm or corvi but just his extreme efficiency at being annoying. If generally a lot of defensive mons just come in to take hits but don't progress the game a lot, ferro is the opposite of that, always threatening the enemy team with status or damage while still being hard to kill and often softening up enemy mons for its teammates, you could even call it a sort of defensive breaker, or an offensively defensive mon.

To reiterate what I said in the first post and what I think is the most important point, it's very very rare for ferro to die without putting any working in. It will reliably set up hazards and cripple 1 or 2 mons and scores kills often too because some of its options (pwhip, gyroball, body press) are unexpected but usually deadly if played right. In a similar fashion to dnite, its very hard to kill in one hit and there's always something it can do to ruin the day of whatever threat stands in front of it. It's also splashable as fuck because it can fit on any playstyle bar HO and doesn't really care about MU, being effective vs all playstyles (except maybe sun lol) while also being quite versatile as explained earlier. I'd even go as far as to call it the clefable of steel types. In the end it's ferro's unexorable "annoyingness" that pulls it above the rest and makes it deserving of A+ for me.

 

[Dr Ya Yeet]

Imho, doesn't deserve A+
It's not a sturdy check to much. does get hard walled by it, but can cripple it with trick, if it is that version ofc. Considering its only form of recovery is lefties and leech, both of which can be exploited with knock/grass type/magic guard user, you can't rely on it that much. It doesn't check , np kills it with fb, and ik Delibird Heart said non heat wave, but people are running that over hurricane even on utility, and ftr knock from utility can still cripple it. Cm is an obvious no-no, it can't even check thunder versions, coz it's setup fodder, even with gyro. chips it down over time, knock+vs+cc take care of that. Hell, bu zera can 1v1 knock gyro versions, maybe even press idk. It's also setup for dnite, bulky dd nite to be exact. runs superpower. 's specs sb does damage, and it can just switch out, leaving Ferro yearning for free lefties turns to remain a check.
Being "annoying" imo doesn't justify A+, especially when it soft checks most stuff.
Now ofc, this doesn't mean ferro is bad lol, just that it's not worthy of A+.
(Zera and never used to viably run lo, so that's a non argument, but ok w/e)
Have a good day

 

[Abhi]

Helo,

to S-

This mon has nearly unmatched utility, and is an incredible glue mon. Fits on just about everything barr Hyper Offense, but I dont think i need to tell you that. Why i specifically think its worthy of S- is because its just simply better than its mates in A+, mostly because of just how much it can do and how well it can do them. Its just ultimately one of the best mons in the meta, and can hold up to S-'s current member's viability.

to B+/B

Zapdos is just not great at the moment, it cant do most of the things its supposed to very well, like switch into Rillaboom, Kartana, and Torn-T. Sure it can force paralysis on them, but on the 70% chance that it cant paralyse them it loses to them, mainly because of Knock Off. Not only that its also widely outclassed as a Defogger right now by things like Corviknight, Torn-t or even Landorus-T, all of which perform much better roles than just being a defogger. And on its subroost set, its widely outclassed by SubRoost Molt and Kyurem.

&

to B-

Sand is just not great right now, probably one of the worse weathers at the moment, gets roadstopped by too many common mons, and also has a considerable amount of pokemon that restricts it. Tyranitar is still fine where it is imo, since its banded set is still pretty good, but these two are just not worth.

to B/B-

Just like Zapdos it cant do what its supposed to very well, it gets beat by Dragapult without much hassle, either by coverage or by Draco Meteor after some very achievable chip. Offensive grasses can break through it pretty easily too with Knock Off and strong STABs, barr Tapu Bulu, which can just set up and break through with a strong Stone Edge or Close Combat.

Some noms i support.

to C+

to A+

to C-

 

[RaikouLover]

^ Only thing to point out regarding the above post: Ferro does not check CM Clef at all unless one of the following happens :
-Clef is Unaware and Ferro has Leech or Toxic.
-Ferro is CB, Curse or SD.
-Ferro is TW + Iron Head.
-Clef is Cm but not Pdef for some reason + Ferro has Gyro Ball.

Most CM Clefs are Pdef + Magic Guard, so regardless of the last Clef move, Ferro usually does not check it at all. Moreover, it's a set-up bait and the reason I don't usually use Ferro on Rain, since those tend to be weak to Cm Clef.

Ferro with Iron Head does in fact beat CM Clefable due to PP. That set does however lose to Pressure Kyurem for the same reason so it can be hard to justify the moveslot overall. Yes, Ferro beats the Tapus pretty reliably as well. The problem is moveslot syndrome. Ferro’s attack(s) can be tailored to what your team needs but it’s usually limited to one or two offensive threats. Its primary role is utility. For that reason I agree Ferro does not deserve any increase.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

honeslty Ive been saying this for a while, however I think Dragapult should be S+ and should be tested. This fucking dragon is extremely oppressive and I’m sick of it. If any of you have ever tried to teambuild and use different mons, scarfers, and not just the same type of team in every other game you will learn quickly how restricting both dragapult and to a much less extent the electric regi are. This dragon is too strong and too fucking fast most of all (which is the main problem). Is it possible to at least get a survey out

 

[PlusC]

Ferrothorn's main issue is that most of the things it checks have relatively common variants that cripple it.

Zeraora might be LO+CC.
Clefable might Magic Guard + CM.
Lele might be Trick.
Garchomp might have Fire Blast. Etc

So it checks a ton of sets, but not a lot of whole mons.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Ferrothorn's main issue is that most of the things it checks have relatively common variants that cripple it.

Zeraora might be LO+CC.
Clefable might Magic Guard + CM.
Lele might be Trick.
Garchomp might have Fire Blast. Etc

So it checks a ton of sets, but not a lot of whole mons.

When was the last time you saw a LO Zeraora in any remotely high level of play (top of ladder within past like 3 months, WCoP, deep into OST, Stour playoffs, etc)? They're all either Lefties on BU or Boots on pivot and BU variants. I do agree Zera doesn't really lose in the long run, but the chip Barbs does can be pretty exploitable, so it's a give and take for both players.

The most you're doing with Ferro lacking TWave is Knocking it, which is still good to force Soft Boiled against stuff like bulkier Landos and Dragapults. Agree support and CM Clef are losing matchups generally, though, just not as black and white as we're letting on here imo.

Isolated from this, doesn't like seemingly less Specs since makes it less pressured to predict Focus into Ferro. But Ferro can still help against Lele.

Garchomp isn't running a ton of mixed these days, as the WCoP stats show here (up to date for everything up to right before quarters tb at time of writing).

Imho, doesn't deserve A+
It's not a sturdy check to much. does get hard walled by it, but can cripple it with trick, if it is that version ofc. Considering its only form of recovery is lefties and leech, both of which can be exploited with knock/grass type/magic guard user, you can't rely on it that much. It doesn't check , np kills it with fb, and ik Delibird Heart said non heat wave, but people are running that over hurricane even on utility, and ftr knock from utility can still cripple it. Cm is an obvious no-no, it can't even check thunder versions, coz it's setup fodder, even with gyro. chips it down over time, knock+vs+cc take care of that. Hell, bu zera can 1v1 knock gyro versions, maybe even press idk. It's also setup for dnite, bulky dd nite to be exact. runs superpower. 's specs sb does damage, and it can just switch out, leaving Ferro yearning for free lefties turns to remain a check.
Being "annoying" imo doesn't justify A+, especially when it soft checks most stuff.
Now ofc, this doesn't mean ferro is bad lol, just that it's not worthy of A+.
(Zera and never used to viably run lo, so that's a non argument, but ok w/e)
Have a good day

CM Fini is still a common set on the mon and Whip Ferrothorn checks that set well. Plus, post Trick, Ferro walls hard as shit. Agree about Torn (knocking it still nice tho depending on your team members) and discussed Clef and Zera earlier in this post. Knocking a Non-Sub DNite is really good for fending it off and you can Leech it, but yeah in a vacuum 1v1 it loses sure. Mel can get Knocked so it takes Barbs if pads and no Lefties has very little longevity and is Leechable as hell. SBall from Pult does damage, yeah, but Ferro can act as a good Draco and UTurn pivot while not dropping in 3 hits to SBall, making it a pretty decent check if your Ghost resist is getting low or want momentum off Spikes. Being annoying isn't a justification for rising, I agree. But I don't see why we're acting as if something being a good wide check to a lot of stuff is all of a sudden a bad thing? Yeah, you don't hard counter a ton, but the idea is Ferrothorn is supplementing your other mons to increase a team's defensive integrity by being an at worst decent check to a ton of stuff while applying offensive pressure in the form of Spikes and even Leech, which I don't think is getting enough credit here. Spikes have been surging in the current metagame, and Ferro is a good user of them since it can somewhat pressure Corv and other Defoggers with Knock and Leech. It also likes other trends like Lando running more defensive sets that don't overwhelm as hard since no SD, CM Fini being really good, etc. I don't think it should rise, at least not yet. The meta is likely gonna reform pretty soon now that OLT is starting up and WCoP is still early in the semis stage, so imo it's better to see how the meta changes before raising it.

As for other noms, agree on Clef, Torn, Draco, Mandi, but not Artozole yet. Need to see Artozolt more in action personally but yeah.

Edit:

View attachment 355212B+ -> B

This pokemon is just a worse breaker than kyurem in pretty much every way, its bulk is mediocre alongside its speed, its only good redeeming qualities is its breaking power which is done much better than kyurem who is much more powerful and bulky. It is reliant on its item and if it loses it, it loses all of its breaking power. An example of it being reliant on its item is:

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 257-304 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 212-252 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 276-328 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

As you can see it turns many 2hko's and 1hko's into 3hko's and 2hko's after losing its item, making its offensive presence pretty much non existant. It has very little defensive utility as with no recovery in conjunction with its poor bulk leaves it very susceptible to chip damage and being very reliant on its teammates to pivot it in instead. B tier is mainly known for pokemon that can function well and have upsides but are very team reliant or inconsistent at times which is where nidoking fits as without opportunities to come in its completely dead weight.

I agree with the nom in itself but you're MASSIVELY overstating the Knock Off thing (the only Knock Off users Nidoking would wanna stay in on are like Clefable, non CM or Scarf Fini, and slower Lando if you got Ice Beam). That and Kyurem's breaking superiority aren't the only reasons Nidoking isn't super good in the current metagame. 4MSS with the current defensive cores being used right now is a big blow to it being able to break consistently and its middling Speed tier compared to stuff like the aforementioned Kyurem as well as Dragapult, Tornadus, Kartana, Urshifu, and Tapu Lele makes its offense matchup middling. Its defensive typing is also becoming even less valued as the meta continues to go towards stuff Nidoking can't resist or gain momentum off of. Its matchup against fat is still good but because of the aforementioned 4MSS, even that can be iffy. So yeah, tldr, agree with the nom in a vacuum but not for the reasons you mentioned here since the post didn't really have substance for how the meta has been more hostile. Hopefully this edit starts discussion lol.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

B+ -> B

This pokemon is just a worse breaker than kyurem in pretty much every way, its bulk is mediocre alongside its speed, its only good redeeming qualities is its breaking power which is done much better by kyurem who is much more powerful and bulky. It is reliant on its item and if it loses it, it loses all of its breaking power. An example of it being reliant on its item is:

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 257-304 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 212-252 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 276-328 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

As you can see it turns many 2hko's and 1hko's into 3hko's and 2hko's after losing its item, making its offensive presence pretty much non existant. It has very little defensive utility as with no recovery in conjunction with its poor bulk leaves it very susceptible to chip damage and being very reliant on its teammates to pivot it in instead. B tier is mainly known for pokemon that can function well and have upsides but are very team reliant or inconsistent at times which is where nidoking fits as without opportunities to come in its completely dead weight.

 

[TailGlowVM]

Nidoking is particularly vulnerable to Knock Off because it's supposed to switch into Toxapex and Clefable, and it can't actually OHKO mixed defenses Toxapex, which has now become standard, with Earth Power, meaning it can just Knock it, get some health back with Regenerator, then get some more health later on if it can switch into something weak like a Corviknight. Also, if Nidoking is your Ground-type, you'd usually want to switch it into Zeraora.

Nidoking is bad for other reasons though - its mediocre stats leave it unable to get a load of KOs you would want: in addition to the aforementioned Toxapex, it can't OHKO Corviknight so it can stay in and gets a free U-turn if you predict wrong, can't 2HKO Slowking reliably without running Thunder, can't 2HKO Ferrothorn without Flamethrower, it's usually setup fodder for Volcarona, in fact, it can't even OHKO Weavile with Earth Power. It also provides no defensive utility other than checking Clefable and Tapu Koko, neither of which is known to be the hardest Pokemon to deal with in the world. I know usage isn't everything, but Nidoking's drop to UU definitely seems justified at this point - I would agree on dropping it.

 

[Dirkhann]

View attachment 355212B+ -> B

This pokemon is just a worse breaker than kyurem in pretty much every way, its bulk is mediocre alongside its speed, its only good redeeming qualities is its breaking power which is done much better by kyurem who is much more powerful and bulky. It is reliant on its item and if it loses it, it loses all of its breaking power. An example of it being reliant on its item is:

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 257-304 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 212-252 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 276-328 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

As you can see it turns many 2hko's and 1hko's into 3hko's and 2hko's after losing its item, making its offensive presence pretty much non existant. It has very little defensive utility as with no recovery in conjunction with its poor bulk leaves it very susceptible to chip damage and being very reliant on its teammates to pivot it in instead. B tier is mainly known for pokemon that can function well and have upsides but are very team reliant or inconsistent at times which is where nidoking fits as without opportunities to come in its completely dead weight.

No recovery seems irrelevant to me since it's an offensive mon. It's meant to get in and deal damage, not spend turns healing. As for chip damage it takes reduced damage from stealth rock. Most offensive Pokemon rely heavily on their item so I don't see your point. Kyurem without specs can't 2hko clef or ferrothorn, for instance. I'll agree with you that it has very lackluster bulk and mediocre speed tier. And very vulnerable to Knock from the things it's supposed to check like Clef and Pex. But ground typing is always a good thing to have with so many broken electrics around.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

No recovery seems irrelevant to me since it's an offensive mon. It's meant to get in and deal damage, not spend turns healing. As for chip damage it takes reduced damage from stealth rock. Most offensive Pokemon rely heavily on their item so I don't see your point. Kyurem without specs can't 2hko clef or ferrothorn, for instance. I'll agree with you that it has very lackluster bulk and mediocre speed tier. And very vulnerable to Knock from the things it's supposed to check like Clef and Pex. But ground typing is always a good thing to have with so many broken electrics around.

1) no recovery means every bit of chip stays such as corviknight's u-turn, clefable's moonblast, tapu koko dazzling gleam, and zapdos' heat wave. It makes it easier to chip down into ohko range of attacks such as hex dragapult draco meteor, tornadus-t hurricane, and into range of buzzwole close combat.
2) This pokemon cannot ohko its would be targets such as toxapex, corviknight, and slowking-g. It also struggles with a 4MSS since without ice beam it is walled by landorus-t, dragonite, and mandibuzz, while without flamethrower it cannot pressure ferrothorn, corviknight, and without thunder it cannot pressure slowking.
3) Ground typing is useful but not when many other pokemon are better with it like garchomp, landorus-t, and hippowdown are better than it. Nidoking does not provide much to a team defensively which is needed to check pokemon like zeraora, zapdos, tapu koko. They also have very useful utility, a secondary typing, and can consistently check its threats that its supposed to.
4) Nidoking needs to build around heavily, you cannot just slap it on a team and call it done, because it cannot switch in on anything because of its low bulk which means it needs to be built around with stuff such as teleport blissey,slowking, and slowbro, u-turn corviknight, tornadus-t, and mandibuzz. You also need to double down on what grounds would check since nidoking does not do that job well.

 

[Dirkhann]

1) no recovery means every bit of chip stays such as corviknight's u-turn, clefable's moonblast, tapu koko dazzling gleam, and zapdos' heat wave. It makes it easier to chip down into ohko range of attacks such as hex dragapult draco meteor, tornadus-t hurricane, and into range of buzzwole close combat.
2) This pokemon cannot ohko its would be targets such as toxapex, corviknight, and slowking-g. It also struggles with a 4MSS since without ice beam it is walled by landorus-t, dragonite, and mandibuzz, while without flamethrower it cannot pressure ferrothorn, corviknight, and without thunder it cannot pressure slowking.
3) Ground typing is useful but not when many other pokemon are better with it like garchomp, landorus-t, and hippowdown are better than it. Nidoking does not provide much to a team defensively which is needed to check pokemon like zeraora, zapdos, tapu koko. They also have very useful utility, a secondary typing, and can consistently check its threats that its supposed to.
4) Nidoking needs to build around heavily, you cannot just slap it on a team and call it done, because it cannot switch in on anything because of its low bulk which means it needs to be built around with stuff such as teleport blissey,slowking, and slowbro, u-turn corviknight, tornadus-t, and mandibuzz. You also need to double down on what grounds would check since nidoking does not do that job well.

A lot of offensive pokemon don't have recovery. Whats your deal with that?

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

A lot of offensive pokemon don't have recovery. Whats your deal with that?

At least pokemon like garchomp, landorus-t, and excadrill can hold leftovers and have decent bulk to check and counter the pokemon they are supposed to. Nidoking has none of that and is all offense, you cannot have nidoking as your solo counter to all of the stuff a ground type is supposed to do

 

[Dirkhann]

The only trait Nido shares with Lando is that they check electrics. Outside of that they do vastly different things. Garchomp can break Ig but it operates on a different manner than Nidoking. And I didn't know having recovery was a must for offensive pokemon. Look at Tapu Lele for instance. Look I'm not arguing that the meta hasn't been kind to Nidoking, because it hasn't, but I just find some of your reasons flawed. Like the recovery thing or comparing Nidoking to Landorus.

 

[ausma]

A lot of offensive pokemon don't have recovery. Whats your deal with that?

Longevity is a factor for any and all Pokemon, and offensive ones are no different, between being able to take stray hits from pivoting moves/hazards, being able to do damage consistently throughout the game, and providing a check for offenses without folding momentum. In fact, situationally, longevity can make or break the viability of certain offensive Pokemon in a metagame where defensive role compression is so key.

Take for instance Buzzwole, Scizor, and Hydreigon, three offensively-edged Pokemon that almost always run Roost. Without Roost it is far more difficult for them to provide defensive utility against their respective targets, and is the key factor that lets them consistently switch in to the dangerous offensive threats they are tasked to handle. In Scizor’s case, it tends to teeter wholly on defense, but it tends to run Swords Dance to double as a win condition that can also maintain momentum.

On the other hand, Dragapult is more often than not a fairly inconsistent switch-in to Pokemon like Urshifu-R and often needs pivoting support of its own to position against its targets, since any and all damage it sustains is permanent, including that of U-turn and hazard chip. While this is not to say Dragapult is a poor offensive Pokemon, its lack of recovery and its proneness to hazard damage means that it generally is impossible to consistently rely on as a switch-in, and because of this, it provides generally inconsistent switch-ins for offenses in spite of its amazing defensive typing otherwise. This is the case for offensive Garchomp variants, too, which would love recovery to let it double as a consistent offensive Zeraora and Heatran check. The list goes on.

I’ll avoid getting too elaborate on this subject since this is the viability rankings and not the metagame discussion thread, but: longevity is and always will be a factor. With that in mind, let’s avoid getting too deep into the semantics of longevity going forward!
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In Nidoking’s case, its breaking abilities were valued a lot more in a metagame where it was less pressed to run several forms of coverage, when its Speed tier was less exploitable, and when the only consistently viable Special walls were ones it could exploit by merit of its STABs or with a Substitute/Taunt. It’s a breaker with a superb typing that can be enabled to do some serious work against unprepared teams and even provides a rather great offensive check to Tapu Koko, but otherwise it leaves a lot to be desired since it can rarely use its defensive typing to exploit top defensive threats like the aforementioned Clefable due to how vulnerable it is to Knock Off. All of this makes B a fair suggestion, but one I’m not 100% sure on yet.

 

[Dirkhann]

Longevity is a factor for any and all Pokemon, and offensive ones are no different, between being able to take stray hits from pivoting moves/hazards, being able to do damage consistently throughout the game, and providing a check for offenses without folding momentum. In fact, situationally, longevity can make or break the viability of certain offensive Pokemon in a metagame where defensive role compression is so key.

Take for instance Buzzwole, Scizor, and Hydreigon, three offensively-edged Pokemon that almost always run Roost. Without Roost it is far more difficult for them to provide defensive utility against their respective targets, and is the key factor that lets them consistently switch in to the dangerous offensive threats they are tasked to handle. In Scizor’s case, it tends to teeter wholly on defense, but it tends to run Swords Dance to double as a win condition that can also maintain momentum.

On the other hand, Dragapult is more often than not a fairly inconsistent switch-in to Pokemon like Urshifu-R and often needs pivoting support of its own to position against its targets, since any and all damage it sustains is permanent, including that of U-turn and hazard chip. While this is not to say Dragapult is a poor offensive Pokemon, its lack of recovery and its proneness to hazard damage means that it generally is impossible to consistently rely on as a switch-in, and because of this, it provides generally inconsistent switch-ins for offenses in spite of its amazing defensive typing otherwise. This is the case for offensive Garchomp variants, too, which would love recovery to let Garchomp double as a consistent offensive Zeraora and Heatran check.

I’ll avoid getting too elaborate on this subject since this is the viability rankings and not the metagame discussion thread, but: longevity is and always will be a factor. With that in mind, let’s avoid getting too deep into the semantics of longevity going forward!
____

In Nidoking’s case, its breaking abilities were valued a lot more in a metagame where it was less pressed to run several forms of coverage, when its Speed tier was less exploitable, and when the only consistently viable Special walls were ones it could exploit by merit of its STABs or with a Substitute/Taunt. It’s a breaker that can be enabled to do some serious work against unprepared teams and even provides a rather great offensive check to Tapu Koko, but otherwise it leaves a lot to be desired unless you have the proper team support which makes B a fair suggestion, but one I’m not 100% sure on yet.

I was never arguing about Nidoking's drop. I wasn't even arguing that it has become worse. But merely disagreeing to dropping it because of its "lack of recovery" . Also It depends on what kind of team you're building for instance. If you're building HO you sure as hell don't care that your mons don't have roost, I can name far more great offensive pokemon that don't have reliable recovery than offensive mons with recovery, that still are great in the metagame. I'm not dismissing the fact that longevity matters, because it certainly does, but I think when talking specifically about a breaker (Nidoking's case, not the case of Scizor or Buzzwole unless CB Buzzwole is a thing and I'm not aware) you should prioritize that it hits hard, and then worry about its longevity. Hydreigon yeah i'll give you that, pretty threatening mon with good recovery in roost.

 

[pulsar512b]

Nidoking is completely fine in the current metagame IMO, and B+ rank is completely fine. If anything, I'd argue for putting it higher, due to it's sheer offensive potential. One common sequence with Timid Nidoking is that defensive lando swaps in, you see that it's probably a defensive variant, and then you can throw off a free ice beam and you've got a fantastic position. Looking at it's compatriots, we mostly see huge threats that unfortunately have something holding them back- in Slowbro's case Slowking, Dracozolt because it requires sand, Bulu due to Rilla. This feels accurate for Nidoking, as it can provide shocking offensive power, but at the cost of a ehhh speed tier.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Nidoking is completely fine in the current metagame IMO, and B+ rank is completely fine. If anything, I'd argue for putting it higher, due to it's sheer offensive potential. One common sequence with Timid Nidoking is that defensive lando swaps in, you see that it's probably a defensive variant, and then you can throw off a free ice beam and you've got a fantastic position. Looking at it's compatriots, we mostly see huge threats that unfortunately have something holding them back- in Slowbro's case Slowking, Dracozolt because it requires sand, Bulu due to Rilla. This feels accurate for Nidoking, as it can provide shocking offensive power, but at the cost of a ehhh speed tier.

The thing is its out done by kyurem and lele, and its a ground type that does not do what a ground does, which is defensively check electrics throught the game which nidoking cannot due to lack of bulk and lack of a recovery. Lando-t does not switch in on nidoking at all, especially if it is defensive and has not scouted for ice beam yet, that is so dumb to do to leave ur lando-t on a nidoking. The Cons of nidoking is that it just straight up does not do anything defensively, and is all or nothing unless provided ample support from teammates via pivots, pokemon to defensively counter what a ground was supposed to do, and hazard and paralysis support. It justifies B as it has way to many flaws to be reliable pick on a team and being to hit or miss

 

[ausma]

I was never arguing about Nidoking's drop. I wasn't even arguing that it has become worse. But merely disagreeing to dropping it because of its "lack of recovery" . Also It depends on what kind of team you're building for instance. If you're building HO you sure as hell don't care that your mons don't have roost, I can name far more great offensive pokemon that don't have reliable recovery than offensive mons with recovery, that still are great in the metagame. I'm not dismissing the fact that longevity matters, but I think when talking specifically about a breaker (Nidoking's case, not the case of Scizor or Buzzwole unless CB Buzzwole is a thing and I'm not aware) you should prioritize that it hits hard, and then worry about its longevity. Hydreigon yeah i'll give you that, pretty threatening mon with good recovery in roost.

In general, I agree with this assessment of Nidoking; I don't think longevity is really the key thing that holds Nidoking back either. However, no matter how we slice it, the fact of the matter is that its wallbreaking abilities upon which it's ranked can be mitigated and invalidated by things it should exploit on paper (Zeraora, Clefable) and is prediction reliant on top of that, which are the key arguments I understand from the pro-drop side.

As a personal observation, as a breaker, it’s a Pokemon that more or less needs to be built around as opposed to being a solitary threat that can compliment and augment offenses (think Urshifu-R or Dragapult). It is generally unable to take advantage of its defensive typing to check much of anything outside of Tapu Koko in addition to its meh Speed tier, and moreover, its fundamental reliance on things like its item play into its strength and can be easily exploited. That being said, to a degree I think this of Choice Specs Kyurem and Tapu Lele too, whose main niches are “hit hard, ask questions later”, and while both hurt a lot, outside of that there’s fairly little they provide for offenses defensively outside of Tapu Lele blocking priority moves, and tend to need removal and/or pivoting removal support to be enabled. Like them, I think Nidoking can really work well with pivoting support from teammates like Dragapult and Urshifu-R, but its prediction-reliant nature and Knock Off weakness means the pool of Pokemon it should be able to directly exploit is startlingly low, which plays directly into the value of its breaking abilities as you try to emphasize.

This being said, the Nidoking discussion has been dragged out for quite a while now and it appears neither side is satiated. I would suggest further discussion be taken to VMs so we can open up room for other nominations. Thank you!