Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [See Post #1517 on Page 61]

ok the rilla drop was kinda harsh. Ye it bad but still.
Zam dropping to ur is outlandish. You are saying that zard has a niche but zam does not. Zam did not deserve the drop whatsoever.:pikuh:
Jirachi was honestly fine where it was. Why did it rise btw? I am curious.

And why did lele not rise?!?!.
That thing a damn threat.
:blobglare:


And why is conk rising?
Its been a while since it was even half decent in ou.
And dnite and hippo drop is kinda harsh too. Please explain me folks.
 

Finchinator

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My bad. Apologies. But what about the Galarian Moltres rise?
No worries!

Galarian Moltres's double dance set has been trendy on HOs, oftentimes finding openings to pose a threat as a late game sweeper. On occasion, people also use the Rest + Chesto Berry set to similar degrees of success, too.
Why did Garchomp drop? It can still break past almost any mon in the tier with the appropriate set, while sporting a valuable typing as well as good natural bulk.

I know Ice Shard can be irritating, which is why Yache Chomp is the best set right now. Not only does it beat Weavile it if has a speed boost, but Yache can also help it beat Adamant Buzzwole with +2 Fire Fang (Slowbro too can be beaten, but it simply switches out to gain HP back). Lefties Chomp is not as good anymore, it's only useful on those teams in which it is the sole Heatran and Zapdos check.

Even stuff like Lum Berry, Roseli Berry, Soft Sand and Life Orb is usable on Chomp. Lum helps it switch into Toxic Heatran, Hurricane Zapdos, Wisp Rotom-W. Roseli helps it beat Fairies like Koko and Scarf Fini and Lele, Soft Sand and Life Orb are usable on HO where Power matters more than longevity.

SR Chomp is still good as well, as SD + Edge pressures most defoggers very well.

Garchomp fits on all offense archetypes and has coverage for all its checks - Fire Blast for Steel Birds and Buzzwole, Aqua Tail for Lando, Stone Edge for Mandi (which is bad anyway)

It may not be the best in the meta, but it certainly has tools to be in the list of Top10 mons
Garchomp dropped for the reasoning provided in my initial post and I clarified that we would be happy to look back into it again in the future here as well.

I clearly opened this thread up to questions, not complaints and re-nominations. It is frustrating when I go out of my way to open up the thread for the sake of informing people, essentially sacrificing a large chunk of my weekend, and they entirely neglect the rules, making a mess. If you want to nominate Garchomp back to A+ when the appropriate time comes, be my guest. But everyone has to follow the rules otherwise I will not continue to go out of my way to open up the thread like this.
Shifu dropping is a bit surprising too - sure Slowbro is rising, but even then there are only a handful of reliable checks to it that are great in the metagame - Toxapex, Slowbro and Tapu Fini.

Dragonite and Tapu Bulu have declined - as witnessed by the VR drops, Pelliper is only relegated to Rain and other checks like Amoongus are very niche. Dragapult is only a 1 time switch in

Shifu is still one of the toughest mons to prepare for in the builder that should warrant A+ status
Again: This is not the place for your agreements or disagreements with the slate. It is open for simple questions about what rose and dropped. Just about everyone else read the post and seems to understand this. We had a dozen very involved players vote on things and we have provided reasoning. If you disagree, you can nominate when appropriate. Posts like yours just makes my job harder while accomplishing absolutely nothing.
 
No worries!

Galarian Moltres's double dance set has been trendy on HOs, oftentimes finding openings to pose a threat as a late game sweeper. On occasion, people also use the Rest + Chesto Berry set to similar degrees of success, too.

Garchomp dropped for the reasoning provided in my initial post and I clarified that we would be happy to look back into it again in the future here as well.

I clearly opened this thread up to questions, not complaints and re-nominations. It is frustrating when I go out of my way to open up the thread for the sake of informing people, essentially sacrificing a large chunk of my weekend, and they entirely neglect the rules, making a mess. If you want to nominate Garchomp back to A+ when the appropriate time comes, be my guest. But everyone has to follow the rules otherwise I will not continue to go out of my way to open up the thread like this.

Again: This is not the place for your agreements or disagreements with the slate. It is open for simple questions about what rose and dropped. Just about everyone else read the post and seems to understand this. We had a dozen very involved players vote on things and we have provided reasoning. If you disagree, you can nominate when appropriate. Posts like yours just makes my job harder while accomplishing absolutely nothing.
I wanted to ask about Chomp and Shifu drops, I didn't intend to present any resistance to the VRs. I know that the VR voters know the meta better than me, I don't question their knowledge. Adding details perhaps made this sound like an argument at my end.

Apologies Finch, didn't mean to waste your time, I'll be more wary next time.
 
Question about the Victini rise, any reason it stopped at just A-? Its tour usage seems pretty strong rn, its in the top 15 most used mons in SCL and its felt reliable in its breaking and also in checking really frustrating mons to fill answers for. I am surprised its not in A. Does it not compete with stuff like Melmetal/Lele and the rest or are you guys just maybe waiting/looking into it more?
 

Finchinator

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okay so why did

:glastrier: Glass horse drop? its tier is perfect as it is a bulky strong attacker.
Literally nobody of note has used it on the high ladder or in tournaments for a long, long time. And again, this thread is open to questions, not your disagreement or commentary. You can re-nominate after this period is over as I explained in the post and to others. Same goes for your others comments, but I will respond to the questions.
:reuniclus: Reuni drop? its an excelent special tank in stall with regen AV and cancels lele, and the cm set is still perfectly decent (tho not as good)
Hardly anyone uses AV, oftentimes electing to go with AV Slowking-Galar or even regular Slowking. That leaves the CM set, but even you admit that is highly pressured and we do not view it as an effective or consistent win condition.
:charizard: THIS THING is still tiered? im genuinely so confused on why this is still C-. lets take a look at the other C-
It is a potent breaker on Sun teams with the right support.
:quagsire: - Amazing physical tank in stall that destroys a lot of physical set up sweepers
:hatterene: - An amazing magic bouncer that is almost NEEDED on trick room teams and on its own it can help with teams weak to hazard like sun, or as a standalone cm sweeper with draining kiss (and also specs since there are a few people on the ladder that effectively use it on spike stack)
:shuckle: - Let's be honest, webs is terrible but its still a genuine niche that is still usable and definetly better than zard.
:celesteela: - An amazing HO sweeper and also a special tank, its leech seed set are still perfect in SS despite it falling off and can threaten a lot of top tier threats like ferro, kart, lele, weave, pult and more.
:rhyperior: - Not tiered, but i think i can safely say this has more niche as a general tank, rocker, volcarona counter, glowking counter, torn-t check, victini counter, koko counter and more.

with those examples and more that i can put like Necrozma i dont see why zard deserves to be tiered. its only niche is solar power weather ball under sun which ill admit, is pretty damn strong but its stealth rock weakness and :heatran: Heatran, :volcarona: volcarona and even :volcanion: volcanion arguably doing its job better as a special nuke under sun, it just seems like its there because once upon a time it was genuinely good.
None of these are questions or anything. I get that you are trying to prove your point about Charizard, but this is very clearly not the time or place for that. Please follow the rules when posting or else opening the thread up to questions just won't keep happening as it makes my life infinitely harder when I am trying to constructively assist people.
query:

are rankings based mostly around tournament play? Or is there some allocation based on the overall metagame?
Ladder play and tournament play are both used. Generally the lower ladder (say below 1500) is not really indicative of the metagame at all so much as people using things they find cool or their favorite Pokemon, but everything else is fair game and I personally ladder every single day I can.
obviously metagame trends cause some Pokémon to immediately become more threatening!

the reason I ask is for a few reasons, some specific examples:

- clearly :blacephalon: is a terror to a lot of teams and possibly the biggest “match up mon”, yet it didn’t get pushed up due to not featuring in tournaments until recently.

Is there no weight given to it because of the downtrend in hydreigon and Tyranitar as ghost resists (amongst other relevant metagame trends, such as scarf blacephalon performance against hail, specs blacephalon performance against almost every team, the downtrend of rain, the increase in soft checks to Kyurem, physically defensive fini being the main set, etc)?

This downtrend of blacephalon checks preceded the tournaments obviously, but the decision makers didn’t give it any weight?
For starters, I play on both ladder and in tournaments -- Blacephalon sees less usage on the ladder and I can even prove this when the month is over. I already explained this at length in a prior post though and I am open to rising Blacephalon: check here. Also, just because checks are being used less does not make something instantly better. Metagame trends take time -- nothing happens overnight.
- on the flip side, looks like :garchomp: is controversial, however it is consistently good against most threats that ebb and flow, for example it offers valuable resists to the up trending victini and blacephalon.

An anecdote example of how it can perform against trending threats in unique ways is its ability to switch into banded brave bird from zapdos-galar and force it out, or to take double rough skin if it is scarfed (this is great when paired with a regenerator).

Is there not enough weight allocated to a Pokémon’s general utility and workability?
I am aware you are trying to be constructive, but this very clearly undermines the intent of opening the thread up to questions. You are basically framing questions to voice your own disagreements with the process and complaints. I really do not appreciate this and I would greatly prefer you stick to the clearly explained topic of the thread: asking about the rises and drops, not your own personal disagreements with the philosophy behind the thread. If you have issues with that, PM me and the other moderators.

Garchomp's drop was not controversial either; we nearly unanimously dropped it and you bring up a few random scenarios that involve it being a soft-check to something or basically traded as fodder, which do not seem particularly relevant to it being A+ or A either. I do not know what you expect me to respond to here when I am focusing on going out of my way to inform people about drops and rises they are curious about while you are trying to dissect logic for the sake of your own personal agenda -- wait until the thread is open to nominations like everyone else.
:scizor: may I also ask what makes Scizor a full A rank Pokémon? This is a surprising one for sure, as it is possibly the easiest lele/Kyurem check to chip into KO range!

It also doesn’t have as much offensive pressure as it had in previous generations, nor does it have a way to punish miscellaneous things outside of knock off.
It is near staple status on certain structures due to it checking Tapu Lele, Kyurem, Clefable, etc. -- such a defensive role is hard to come by and allows for Scizor to be very useful. This may only offer you pivoting offensively, but that is more than enough with the right partnership. We did vote on Scizor and it was decisively to stay in A.
Two main, quick questions:

1) What caused Gastrodon's rise? Like i know its good, especially as a water immunity and rain check on balance and trick counter on stall but is there anything in particular that made it rise?
2) Was their any discussion about Aegislash?

also rip Arctovish, never shall he be able to see his brother in Ubers, even for a brief moment.
It does very well against Slowking-Galar, Tapu Koko, and Calm Mind Tapu Fini. All of those Pokemon are trending, so Gastrodon rises up for the time being. We have seen more and more defensive cores make use of Gastrodon.

Yes, we voted on it and it was kinda close (ok not really, but we may re-vote next time), but ultimately we decided to keep Aegislash where it was.

I was actually the only person to vote to rank Arctovish sadly ;_;
why did darmanitan get ranked?
Late game option on Sun teams to clean and arguably viable with HDB as well as a breaker.
What is it about Body Press + colbur slowbro that helped it rise? The OG Post mostly mentions its usefulness as a FS pivot that can tank Physical hits
We mentioned both Body Press and the Future Sight niche before -- they both come into play here though, yes.
 

Finchinator

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Why is Volcarona still A-? There were some strong arguments made for why it should never have dropped to A- and I believe they deserve a rebuttal. Volcarona's checks are very easy to wear down over the course of a battle and it also offers effective defensive utility which is why I believe it deserves A rank.
We voted on it and it was decisively A-.

Those arguments are fair, but they never really mentioned things like the rise in Blissey, which really is reactionary to Kyurem and hurts non-Safeguard Volcarona a ton, or Victini, which functions as a great trendy BO option that handles all non-Bug Buzz variants multiple times over.

Obviously Volcarona is a strong, polarizing option in the metagame with a high ceiling as a win condition, but just because Heatran is easy to wear out and outlasting Dragapult and Tapu Fini is feasible does not mean it is going to happen all the time or that is is this black-and-white. We are at a point where there are more forms of Volcarona counterplay than ever before, which makes consistently outlasting and defeating them especially challenging.
Say, what's keeping Scizor in A rank? There were plenty of A- noms since it easily gets worn down into range of Lele, Kyurem and other things it's meant to check, does it just find itself in a good position now between offensive sets and NMI Kyurem running around?
It is a good anti-metagame pick with the surge in Tapu Lele, Kyurem, and even CM Clefable. It can get worn out and it is consistently vulnerable to drops or status from these Pokemon, but it is one of the few answers that are not total momentum-sucks. We voted on it and the consensus was to keep it because of this.
ok the rilla drop was kinda harsh. Ye it bad but still.
If something is bad relative to its position, which you clearly imply, it is going to drop. I cannot fathom what your issue actually is and this just feels like we cannot possibly win with you, so that's just on you.
Zam dropping to ur is outlandish. You are saying that zard has a niche but zam does not. Zam did not deserve the drop whatsoever.:pikuh:
As clearly stated, this thread is open to questions, not your personal commentary or disagreements. There is a nomination phase for that. There is a team of people putting in thankless work to update and maintain this thread, so it would be very much appreciated if you followed simply and clearly outlined rules rather than labeling our work as "outlandish" and questioning it with no true reasoning provided.

Finally, there have been no noteworthy uses of Alakazam on the higher part of the ladder, in tournaments, or really in general. We have at least seen a few stray Charizard on Sun teams, which is, more or less, enough to keep it barely ranked. I do not know what else you expect, but you can provide actual reasoning beyond empty comparisons when the thread opens up to nominations if you so please.
Jirachi was honestly fine where it was. Why did it rise btw? I am curious.

And why did lele not rise?!?!.
That thing a damn threat.
:blobglare:
You answered your own question there buddy. Also, it helps a ton with Kyurem and Slowking-Galar, which are as annoying as ever.
And why is conk rising?
Its been a while since it was even half decent in ou.
And dnite and hippo drop is kinda harsh too. Please explain me folks.
Conkeldurr has appeared on a few teams with Future Sight + Teleport and it also is a staple on Trick Room.

Dragonite's DD set is very support reliant and other sets are far too passive to be consistent. It's niche is fleeting and usage is dipping.

Hippowdon is still mostly solid, but the type of teams it anchors are less common and arguably less needed in the metagame given the shift in top threats as of late. Kyurem also carves up most Hippowdon builds, which is a major problem for them.
What's the reason for the Quag drop?
We have seen some Unaware Clefable on stall, too, which limits its niche further than before.
Why there no discussion on a Zapdos rise
There was, but a lot of things that are trending right now punish it such as Kyurem and Slowking-Galar. It is hard to use Zapdos consistently at the moment, so we kept it where it was.
I wanted to ask about Chomp and Shifu drops, I didn't intend to present any resistance to the VRs. I know that the VR voters know the meta better than me, I don't question their knowledge. Adding details perhaps made this sound like an argument at my end.

Apologies Finch, didn't mean to waste your time, I'll be more wary next time.
It's not about knowing more or less -- I am sure you know plenty, but we just want to keep the thread on track right now so we can help inform everyone. Then, we will open up the thread and you can state your thoughts on any drops or rises you wish to happen. It's best we keep it this way for the sake of organization. It's pretty clear you get this and probably just went a little far with your prior post, so no worries and I appreciate your response!
Question about the Victini rise, any reason it stopped at just A-? Its tour usage seems pretty strong rn, its in the top 15 most used mons in SCL and its felt reliable in its breaking and also in checking really frustrating mons to fill answers for. I am surprised its not in A. Does it not compete with stuff like Melmetal/Lele and the rest or are you guys just maybe waiting/looking into it more?
It's likely due to the fact that it can still only do so much and it struggles to break through bulkier teams, which are also beginning to see more usage. It is a great pivot and we could vote on it again to go to A in the near future, but A- support, not higher or lower, was near unanimous
Why didn't excadrill drop in conjunction with dracozolt? as they are pretty tied to sand. Has there been any important use of the utility spin set that I wasnt aware of?
Excadrill Sand niche is seen as a little stronger in our eyes due to the Steel type and Rapid Spin utility. It also is used sparingly as a suicide lead on HO teams, which cannot ever be said for Dracozolt. There's not a ton separating the two, but we believe the difference is enough to justify the slight separation.
Why didn't hydreigon drop?
It is still a good check to things like Blacephalon and Volcanion while also having potential to be a massive threat with NP sets. Obviously it is more limited than it was months back when it was A+ or A rank, but there is still plenty of reason to use Hydreigon right now.
 

Finchinator

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Finch, could you explain these 2?
Dracozolt Sand teams are less common than before; it struggles a lot with things like prediction reliance and inability to break standard SDef Landorus-T. There seem to be fewer and fewer reasons to make use of it due to inconsistency.

Kommo-O is tough because it still has a pretty distinguished niche and can be a win condition or a utility presence, but it fails to stand out in either regard and generally struggles to find its way onto many teams at all.
 

Finchinator

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Finch, do you mind explain the Galar Bird Rise? Also, the reason for Lati drops
Zapdos-Galar has been surging lately, taking advantage of Landorus-T's staple status and really breaking through teams lacking physically durable Regenerator backbones or Zapdos regular.

Moltres-Galar has been an underrated sweeper, functioning well on hyper offense with the double dance set and holding its own with a sneaky good ChestoResto NP set in general. It is a tad on the inconsistent side still as it is very possible to RK non-Agility variants and minimize the amount of free turns it gets, but with the right partners, it can be devastating.

Latias had seen some usage with Weakness Policy + Stored Power sets, but no sightings of this recently. Latios had been similar with Agility or even as a breaker without Weakness Policy, but no sightings of it recently either. Overall, their niches continue to be diminished and usage continues to scrape the bottom of the barrel, so we drop them when we feel appropriate.
Did tang drop because of chomp and shifu drop? Cus I honestly find it to be pretty useful against those.
In part, yes, but also things like Slowbro are rising and fulfill a similar role, thus further minimizing Tangrowth.
 
Zapdos-Galar has been surging lately, taking advantage of Landorus-T's staple status and really breaking through teams lacking physically durable Regenerator backbones or Zapdos regular.

Moltres-Galar has been an underrated sweeper, functioning well on hyper offense with the double dance set and holding its own with a sneaky good ChestoResto NP set in general. It is a tad on the inconsistent side still as it is very possible to RK non-Agility variants and minimize the amount of free turns it gets, but with the right partners, it can be devastating.

Latias had seen some usage with Weakness Policy + Stored Power sets, but no sightings of this recently. Latios had been similar with Agility or even as a breaker without Weakness Policy, but no sightings of it recently either. Overall, their niches continue to be diminished and usage continues to scrape the bottom of the barrel, so we drop them when we feel appropriate.

In part, yes, but also things like Slowbro are rising and fulfill a similar role, thus further minimizing Tangrowth.
Oh yes forgot about Slowbro, silly me ty
 

Finchinator

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i hate a lot of these changes, but why didn’t scizor drop at least somewhat?
Glad you felt a need to share your hatred on our slate, BreakthrU89. Regarding Scizor:
It is near staple status on certain structures due to it checking Tapu Lele, Kyurem, Clefable, etc. -- such a defensive role is hard to come by and allows for Scizor to be very useful. This may only offer you pivoting offensively, but that is more than enough with the right partnership. We did vote on Scizor and it was decisively to stay in A.
 
Idk why people have been clamouring for Scizor drop. It has so much role compression like Roost, U-turn, Knock-off, Priority, and checks top tier threats like Kyurem, Lele, Weavile, Kart, Melmetal etc....

People usually argue that Scizor need to be at 100% to check anything, but let me remind you that Scizor is an offense team mon (even the pivot set) whose job is to switch into aforementioned threats, Roost off the damage or U-turn on a Scizor check like Pex to bring in a check to Pex like Chomp.

Scizor isn't a great mon on fat coz it lacks coloassal bulk, but the above traits give it a valuable spot on BO and Offense teams
 
could you further explain the hippo drop? The reasoning all makes sense, my intuition is just that with things like rilla, corv, etc. either dropping on vr or falling out of favor somewhat, and seeing stuff like ttar for a ghost check, that sand might see an uptick since conditions would seem a good bit more favorable for sand/exca (but I know it’s not zero sum, so those things falling doesn’t have to equal a rise for others, but that’s why I ask)
 
If something is bad relative to its position, which you clearly imply, it is going to drop. I cannot fathom what your issue actually is and this just feels like we cannot possibly win with you, so that's just on you.

As clearly stated, this thread is open to questions, not your personal commentary or disagreements. There is a nomination phase for that. There is a team of people putting in thankless work to update and maintain this thread, so it would be very much appreciated if you followed simply and clearly outlined rules rather than labeling our work as "outlandish" and questioning it with no true reasoning provided.

Finally, there have been no noteworthy uses of Alakazam on the higher part of the ladder, in tournaments, or really in general. We have at least seen a few stray Charizard on Sun teams, which is, more or less, enough to keep it barely ranked. I do not know what else you expect, but you can provide actual reasoning beyond empty comparisons when the thread opens up to nominations if you so please.
I am extremely sorry man:( I did not mean to be rude or question the team. I was just kinda pulled back seeing zam of all things to ur. And by outlandish, i meant that we are living in a timeline where zam is ur in ou. Did not mean to disrespect you guys whatsoever. If you are offended, forgiveness is what i ask. I whole heartedly appreciate the work you guys are doing. :blobsad:. Looking forward to more great things coming ahead :)

Is it fine if nom zam after two day btw?
 

ausma

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I am extremely sorry man:( I did not mean to be rude or question the team. I was just kinda pulled back seeing zam of all things to ur. And by outlandish, i meant that we are living in a timeline where zam is ur in ou. Did not mean to disrespect you guys whatsoever. If you are offended, forgiveness is what i ask. I whole heartedly appreciate the work you guys are doing. :blobsad:. Looking forward to more great things coming ahead :)

Is it fine if nom zam after two day btw?
You never need to ask to nominate a Pokemon, even one that’s unranked, just as long as you have replays to reinforce it!

Don’t worry about it, by the way—miscommunications happen. I appreciate your apology but you really don’t have to stress about it. Have a good rest of your week :)
 

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